Today we’re excited to announce an all-new way to experience the Twitch content you love, seamlessly and without ads, all while still supporting your favorite broadcasters. It’s called Twitch Turbo, and for $8.99 per month you gain access to a number of exclusive features to enhance your Twitch experience:
Ad-free Twitch: No pre-rolls, no mid-rolls, no companions, no display ads, and broadcasters still get paid. All you see are front-page takeovers.
Exclusive Turbo Badge: A way to proudly show the community your passion for Twitch.
Custom emoticon set: A Choice between the standard set and an all-new set of emoticons to express digital emotions
Expanded chat colors: The ability to stand out from the crowd with Turbo-only chat colors.
Priority Customer Support: A way to get into the front of the line when you need help.
This is just the beginning of what we hope to offer through Twitch Turbo, and we’re looking forward to seeing exactly what sort of benefits and enhancements the community would like to see, from viewers to broadcasters and beyond.
Starting today around 9:00am PST, you can sign up for Twitch Turbo by visiting http://www.twitch.tv/products/turbo, and please feel free to share your thoughts below.
I've recently read that twitch have announced a turbo feature to their site, which is a premium service in which you pay $8.99 a month to not see adverts on their site.
Now i'm based in the UK and i don't see this when i access twitch so is it just a US thing currently? So firstly i'm wondering if this is actually a thing or if it's just very new.
I like the idea of this service but what i'm wondering is who does this money go to? I never block adverts on streams as i know it brings in some money to the streamer and i like to support them as much as possible. So my worry is, if I was to buy this service do the streamers lose out on money from adverts i could be watching?
Ad-free Twitch: No pre-rolls, no mid-rolls, no companions, no display ads, and broadcasters still get paid. All you see are front-page takeovers.
Starting today around 9:00am PST, you can sign up for Twitch Turbo by visiting http://www.twitch.tv/products/turbo, and please feel free to share your thoughts below.
All i hope is that Twitch won't turn for the same as Justin.tv. If you aren't subscriber, you won't be able to watch a certain stream sometimes because of the limit where X amount of people are able to watch the stream from your country, or whatever it is. But i doubt that will happen.
Starting today around 9:00am PST, you can sign up for Twitch Turbo by visiting http://www.twitch.tv/products/turbo, and please feel free to share your thoughts below.
All i hope is that Twitch won't turn for the same as Justin.tv. If you aren't subscriber, you won't be able to watch a certain stream sometimes because of the limit where X amount of people are able to watch the stream from your country, or whatever it is. But i doubt that will happen.
That would absolutely kill their business, but I suppose someone has to pay for bandwidth all those streams without adds need
Starting today around 9:00am PST, you can sign up for Twitch Turbo by visiting http://www.twitch.tv/products/turbo, and please feel free to share your thoughts below.
All i hope is that Twitch won't turn for the same as Justin.tv. If you aren't subscriber, you won't be able to watch a certain stream sometimes because of the limit where X amount of people are able to watch the stream from your country, or whatever it is. But i doubt that will happen.
This is pretty much impossible. Twitch's origin is the Justin.tv gaming category which was the single category that had the X-amount-of-people-restriction lifted from it, because of its popularity. It then seperated from JTV and became TwitchTV, now Twitch.
On February 05 2013 00:09 Grettin wrote: Here is the announcement
Ad-free Twitch: No pre-rolls, no mid-rolls, no companions, no display ads, and broadcasters still get paid. All you see are front-page takeovers.
Starting today around 9:00am PST, you can sign up for Twitch Turbo by visiting http://www.twitch.tv/products/turbo, and please feel free to share your thoughts below.
All i hope is that Twitch won't turn for the same as Justin.tv. If you aren't subscriber, you won't be able to watch a certain stream sometimes because of the limit where X amount of people are able to watch the stream from your country, or whatever it is. But i doubt that will happen.
That would absolutely kill their business, but I suppose someone has to pay for bandwidth all those streams without adds need
You are right. Obviously my post was more of a offtopic than related, but its sometimes okay to fear for the worst i guess. :p
I think it is an interesting avenue to take in terms of monetizing the site. I can only imagine that partnered streamers would have been informed of some modification to the payment model to which they stipulated when they signed up with Twitch. Doubt there would be a large effect as a result.
so any ideas how ad revenue will go to the broadcasters? Like if i paid for the turbo sub and was watching a stream but see no ad's how will the broadcasters get money if i'm not seeing them?
On February 05 2013 00:23 yorkey wrote: so any ideas how ad revenue will go to the broadcasters? Like if i paid for the turbo sub and was watching a stream but see no ad's how will the broadcasters get money if i'm not seeing them?
Every turbo user watching the stream will count as an impression.
On February 05 2013 00:23 yorkey wrote: so any ideas how ad revenue will go to the broadcasters? Like if i paid for the turbo sub and was watching a stream but see no ad's how will the broadcasters get money if i'm not seeing them?
Reading the comments, someone said this. I couldn't find the exact comment by a twitch employee though.
Read some of the new comments from the staff before talking. Twitch automatically records when a Turbo member watches, and counts it as though an ad was watched, even though an ad isn't shown. So the broadcaster still gets paid the same.
GunRuns comment:
Broadcasters are paid on a per-impressions basis for ads. If a Turbo user would have seen an ad, it's recorded and the broadcaster is paid as if the user had been shown one.
On February 05 2013 00:23 yorkey wrote: so any ideas how ad revenue will go to the broadcasters? Like if i paid for the turbo sub and was watching a stream but see no ad's how will the broadcasters get money if i'm not seeing them?
Every turbo user watching the stream will count as an impression.
Ah ok, well i quite like the idea of it.
One thing i was wondering though. (sorry for so many questions) is currently broadcasters put up subs for their stream to support them, and you get no ads etc on their channel but now for a bit more you get no ads on all channels, right? so won't broadcasters lose out on quite a bit of money from people who would normally subscribe but have moved to the turbo sub?
For me this is great, I hate AD's (even though I white list twitch and teamliquid <3) For just £5 a month I can be without ads and not feel like I'm stealing content from the streamers.
On February 05 2013 00:27 Detri wrote: For me this is great, I hate AD's (even though I white list twitch and teamliquid <3) For just £5 a month I can be without ads and not feel like I'm stealing content from the streamers.
Now for a teamliquid+ option ? :D
At least TLs ads are non-intrusive banners usually of qt asians, rather than the Devil May Cry advert which blasted my ears every 5 minutes, or the fucking Blops2 DLC advert which is awful because it reminds me of how big a scam the DLC packs for that game are.
An interesting consequence of this is that channels that are aiming for high production values, but previously assumed most of their viewers were watching ads are going to have to fill that time with at least a decent graphic. I imagine most twitch viewers are gonna get bored of the crappy static screens during ads. Which isn't to say its worse than the ads themselves, but a great stream will have something for twitch turbo users.
This screws over the pro gamer streams that make a big chunk of their living off subs/ad revenue
Twitch is greedy as hell, feel bad for the people who get screwed over by this, seems like all stream sites are geting greedy and screwing over the people who make them money, Hope twitch does not get closed down like own3d did when youtube streams go live. Impossible for people to make money now with twitch.
On February 05 2013 00:02 yorkey wrote: I've recently read that twitch have announced a turbo feature to their site, which is a premium service in which you pay $8.99 a month to not see adverts on their site.
Now i'm based in the UK and i don't see this when i access twitch so is it just a US thing currently? So firstly i'm wondering if this is actually a thing or if it's just very new.
I like the idea of this service but what i'm wondering is who does this money go to? I never block adverts on streams as i know it brings in some money to the streamer and i like to support them as much as possible. So my worry is, if I was to buy this service do the streamers lose out on money from adverts i could be watching?
Why pay them 8.99 per month when you can just use adblock? It's free.
On February 05 2013 00:46 LingBlingBling wrote: This screws over the pro gamer streams that make a big chunk of their living off subs/ad revenue
Twitch is greedy as hell, feel bad for the people who get screwed over by this, seems like all stream sites are geting greedy and screwing over the people who make them money, Hope twitch does not get closed down like own3d did when youtube streams go live. Impossible for people to make money now with twitch.
This should lead to a minor improvement in revenue for the regular channels (i.e. 99% of the player streams you watch). The channels will get paid for their ads ran to Turbo users as if the ad was actually seen. This means that if someone previous ad-blocked and now has Turbo, he will count as an ad to the regular channel.
It may be tough on subscriber channels losing some members who prefer to pay for Turbo instead. With polling done by Twitch they state that the majority of subscribers pay because they want to support the channels, and less so for the ad removal. Twitch will be able to monitor what this does to those channels, and hopefully come up with something for it if it turns out to be an issue. It would be kind of cool if you had 3 slots with $1 to give to a channel with subscribers on Twitch.
It needs to be mentioned that Twitch is massive compared to the subscriber channels, and that this is a really important move for their overall business model. It is not an evil business model at all, in fact if they had never offered channels the option to get subscribers (which they didn't need to) then everything would look entirely normal. Sometimes the right move can impact people negatively, but it is important to see things in the right perspective.
Although this isn't great for us (TSL+ had a no ads feature, plans with the player channels) I want to say that I support Twitch doing this. Before anything else; we should all want Twitch to have a healthy business model. There is no doubt this is the right choice for a company like Twitch, and hopefully that will find its way back to our scene in one way or another.
If i recall correctly, eSport made Twitch successful. If streamers start complaining about huge income losses, viewers should let twitch (and justin tv) die. There will be alternative streaming site by then.
But i hope it's just a field experience with a short lifespan, as i like them. If somehow esport is benefited, it's fine too. Let's see how it turns out.
Based on napkin math: You'd have to watch about 150 ads (10ish hours) on twitch every day for even half of that money to go to the actual streamers. I watch about 2 hours a week at best (not counting actual tournaments), meaning that something like 98% of the subscription would go straight to twitch.
To me it seems extremely overpriced for the service it provides, especially when a free program offers the same. If they want to lure people away from things like adblock, they need to offer a much more minimal fee.
On February 05 2013 00:46 LingBlingBling wrote: This screws over the pro gamer streams that make a big chunk of their living off subs/ad revenue
Twitch is greedy as hell, feel bad for the people who get screwed over by this, seems like all stream sites are geting greedy and screwing over the people who make them money, Hope twitch does not get closed down like own3d did when youtube streams go live. Impossible for people to make money now with twitch.
Or, it doesn't really affect them at all? The only effect this might have is that people are more likely to buy a twitch turbo subscription instead of a subscription for an individual stream to block ads. There's still the option of higher resolutions for premium users for those so inclined or other incentives like day9 running subscriber only monobattles.
On February 05 2013 00:59 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: This should lead to a minor improvement in revenue for the regular channels (i.e. 99% of the player streams you watch). The channels will get paid for their ads ran to Turbo users as if the ad was actually seen. This means that if someone previous ad-blocked and now has Turbo, he will count as an ad to the regular channel.
It may be tough on subscriber channels losing some members who prefer to pay for Turbo instead. With polling done by Twitch they state that the majority of subscribers pay because they want to support the channels, and less so for the ad removal. Twitch will be able to monitor what this does to those channels, and hopefully come up with something for it if it turns out to be an issue. It would be kind of cool if you had 3 slots with $1 to give to a channel with subscribers on Twitch.
It needs to be mentioned that Twitch is massive compared to the subscriber channels, and that this is a really important move for their overall business model. It is not an evil business model at all, in fact if they had never offered channels the option to get subscribers (which they didn't need to) then everything would look entirely normal. Sometimes the right move can impact people negatively, but it is important to see things in the right perspective.
Although this isn't great for us (TSL+ had a no ads feature, plans with the player channels) I want to say that I support Twitch doing this. Before anything else; we should all want Twitch to have a healthy business model. There is no doubt this is the right choice for a company like Twitch, and hopefully that will find its way back to our scene in one way or another.
Twitch already takes 50% of the subs money. If they would take 20% I'd be okay with twitch turbo but for now they are undercutting heavily the broadcasters who at the end of the day provide the content for twitch to make money on. I agree it's good for the users and for them but what about us ?
On February 05 2013 00:59 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: This should lead to a minor improvement in revenue for the regular channels (i.e. 99% of the player streams you watch). The channels will get paid for their ads ran to Turbo users as if the ad was actually seen. This means that if someone previous ad-blocked and now has Turbo, he will count as an ad to the regular channel.
It may be tough on subscriber channels losing some members who prefer to pay for Turbo instead. With polling done by Twitch they state that the majority of subscribers pay because they want to support the channels, and less so for the ad removal. Twitch will be able to monitor what this does to those channels, and hopefully come up with something for it if it turns out to be an issue. It would be kind of cool if you had 3 slots with $1 to give to a channel with subscribers on Twitch.
It needs to be mentioned that Twitch is massive compared to the subscriber channels, and that this is a really important move for their overall business model. It is not an evil business model at all, in fact if they had never offered channels the option to get subscribers (which they didn't need to) then everything would look entirely normal. Sometimes the right move can impact people negatively, but it is important to see things in the right perspective.
Although this isn't great for us (TSL+ had a no ads feature, plans with the player channels) I want to say that I support Twitch doing this. Before anything else; we should all want Twitch to have a healthy business model. There is no doubt this is the right choice for a company like Twitch, and hopefully that will find its way back to our scene in one way or another.
Twitch already takes 50% of the subs money. If they would take 20% I'd be okay with twitch turbo but for now they are undercutting heavily the broadcasters who at the end of the day provide the content for twitch to make money on. I agree it's good for the users and for them but what about us ?
Remember desrow, as Nazgual stated majority of subs are subs because they want to support you directly. If it was a simple case of "I don't want ads" they would just use adblock. You should still have quite similar subscriber numbers as well as the fact as those who were once on ad block and now who use turbo views will help increase your revenue.
On February 05 2013 00:59 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: This should lead to a minor improvement in revenue for the regular channels (i.e. 99% of the player streams you watch). The channels will get paid for their ads ran to Turbo users as if the ad was actually seen. This means that if someone previous ad-blocked and now has Turbo, he will count as an ad to the regular channel.
It may be tough on subscriber channels losing some members who prefer to pay for Turbo instead. With polling done by Twitch they state that the majority of subscribers pay because they want to support the channels, and less so for the ad removal. Twitch will be able to monitor what this does to those channels, and hopefully come up with something for it if it turns out to be an issue. It would be kind of cool if you had 3 slots with $1 to give to a channel with subscribers on Twitch.
It needs to be mentioned that Twitch is massive compared to the subscriber channels, and that this is a really important move for their overall business model. It is not an evil business model at all, in fact if they had never offered channels the option to get subscribers (which they didn't need to) then everything would look entirely normal. Sometimes the right move can impact people negatively, but it is important to see things in the right perspective.
Although this isn't great for us (TSL+ had a no ads feature, plans with the player channels) I want to say that I support Twitch doing this. Before anything else; we should all want Twitch to have a healthy business model. There is no doubt this is the right choice for a company like Twitch, and hopefully that will find its way back to our scene in one way or another.
Twitch already takes 50% of the subs money. If they would take 20% I'd be okay with twitch turbo but for now they are undercutting heavily the broadcasters who at the end of the day provide the content for twitch to make money on. I agree it's good for the users and for them but what about us ?
Remember desrow, as Nazgual stated majority of subs are subs because they want to support you directly. If it was a simple case of "I don't want ads" they would just use adblock. You should still have quite similar subscriber numbers as well as the fact as those who were once on ad block and now who use turbo views will help increase your revenue.
This is for the current subscribers. That poll was made for those who are already paying. what about potential new subscribers ? I have no way to make someone subscribe to my channel in the future when they are already paying 9$ for no ads across the whole twitch platform. This kills the growth of every broadcaster on twitch who offers perks and tries to sell subs.
On February 05 2013 00:59 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: This should lead to a minor improvement in revenue for the regular channels (i.e. 99% of the player streams you watch). The channels will get paid for their ads ran to Turbo users as if the ad was actually seen. This means that if someone previous ad-blocked and now has Turbo, he will count as an ad to the regular channel.
It may be tough on subscriber channels losing some members who prefer to pay for Turbo instead. With polling done by Twitch they state that the majority of subscribers pay because they want to support the channels, and less so for the ad removal. Twitch will be able to monitor what this does to those channels, and hopefully come up with something for it if it turns out to be an issue. It would be kind of cool if you had 3 slots with $1 to give to a channel with subscribers on Twitch.
It needs to be mentioned that Twitch is massive compared to the subscriber channels, and that this is a really important move for their overall business model. It is not an evil business model at all, in fact if they had never offered channels the option to get subscribers (which they didn't need to) then everything would look entirely normal. Sometimes the right move can impact people negatively, but it is important to see things in the right perspective.
Although this isn't great for us (TSL+ had a no ads feature, plans with the player channels) I want to say that I support Twitch doing this. Before anything else; we should all want Twitch to have a healthy business model. There is no doubt this is the right choice for a company like Twitch, and hopefully that will find its way back to our scene in one way or another.
Twitch already takes 50% of the subs money. If they would take 20% I'd be okay with twitch turbo but for now they are undercutting heavily the broadcasters who at the end of the day provide the content for twitch to make money on. I agree it's good for the users and for them but what about us ?
Remember desrow, as Nazgual stated majority of subs are subs because they want to support you directly. If it was a simple case of "I don't want ads" they would just use adblock. You should still have quite similar subscriber numbers as well as the fact as those who were once on ad block and now who use turbo views will help increase your revenue.
So what exactly is the majority in this case? Is it 51%+ or 99%? If 99% would still subscribe to single channels, this would indeed not be an issue, but what if the majority is 60%?
On February 05 2013 00:59 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: This should lead to a minor improvement in revenue for the regular channels (i.e. 99% of the player streams you watch). The channels will get paid for their ads ran to Turbo users as if the ad was actually seen. This means that if someone previous ad-blocked and now has Turbo, he will count as an ad to the regular channel.
It may be tough on subscriber channels losing some members who prefer to pay for Turbo instead. With polling done by Twitch they state that the majority of subscribers pay because they want to support the channels, and less so for the ad removal. Twitch will be able to monitor what this does to those channels, and hopefully come up with something for it if it turns out to be an issue. It would be kind of cool if you had 3 slots with $1 to give to a channel with subscribers on Twitch.
It needs to be mentioned that Twitch is massive compared to the subscriber channels, and that this is a really important move for their overall business model. It is not an evil business model at all, in fact if they had never offered channels the option to get subscribers (which they didn't need to) then everything would look entirely normal. Sometimes the right move can impact people negatively, but it is important to see things in the right perspective.
Although this isn't great for us (TSL+ had a no ads feature, plans with the player channels) I want to say that I support Twitch doing this. Before anything else; we should all want Twitch to have a healthy business model. There is no doubt this is the right choice for a company like Twitch, and hopefully that will find its way back to our scene in one way or another.
Twitch already takes 50% of the subs money. If they would take 20% I'd be okay with twitch turbo but for now they are undercutting heavily the broadcasters who at the end of the day provide the content for twitch to make money on. I agree it's good for the users and for them but what about us ?
Remember desrow, as Nazgual stated majority of subs are subs because they want to support you directly. If it was a simple case of "I don't want ads" they would just use adblock. You should still have quite similar subscriber numbers as well as the fact as those who were once on ad block and now who use turbo views will help increase your revenue.
This is for the current subscribers. That poll was made for those who are already paying. what about potential new subscribers ? I have no way to make someone subscribe to my channel in the future when they are already paying 9$ for no ads across the whole twitch platform. This kills the growth of every broadcaster on twitch who offers perks and tries to sell subs.
What about other incentives? Subscriber only chat during peak hours, playing FFAs with random subscribers for 2 hours weekly. There's still ways.
On February 05 2013 00:59 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: This should lead to a minor improvement in revenue for the regular channels (i.e. 99% of the player streams you watch). The channels will get paid for their ads ran to Turbo users as if the ad was actually seen. This means that if someone previous ad-blocked and now has Turbo, he will count as an ad to the regular channel.
It may be tough on subscriber channels losing some members who prefer to pay for Turbo instead. With polling done by Twitch they state that the majority of subscribers pay because they want to support the channels, and less so for the ad removal. Twitch will be able to monitor what this does to those channels, and hopefully come up with something for it if it turns out to be an issue. It would be kind of cool if you had 3 slots with $1 to give to a channel with subscribers on Twitch.
It needs to be mentioned that Twitch is massive compared to the subscriber channels, and that this is a really important move for their overall business model. It is not an evil business model at all, in fact if they had never offered channels the option to get subscribers (which they didn't need to) then everything would look entirely normal. Sometimes the right move can impact people negatively, but it is important to see things in the right perspective.
Although this isn't great for us (TSL+ had a no ads feature, plans with the player channels) I want to say that I support Twitch doing this. Before anything else; we should all want Twitch to have a healthy business model. There is no doubt this is the right choice for a company like Twitch, and hopefully that will find its way back to our scene in one way or another.
Twitch already takes 50% of the subs money. If they would take 20% I'd be okay with twitch turbo but for now they are undercutting heavily the broadcasters who at the end of the day provide the content for twitch to make money on. I agree it's good for the users and for them but what about us ?
I think Twitch is seeing a specific channel subscriber as a different beast than an overall Twitch Turbo user. It's quite possible you will make more money because of the turbo users being counted as ad watchers. That works great for users that watch a variety of channels and don't watch enough of one channel to subscribe to it. So you as the streamer will get a bit more revenue that way (maybe not a lot), and that type of user wouldn't normally be subscribing to your channel anyway.
Users that want to subscribe to specific individuals I'm guessing are doing it as a support of that individual rather than subscribing for features. I don't think you'll lose many of those types of subscribers switching over to Turbo.
As for myself, I'm fine with it but I'm going to need a little bit more value added before I pay $9/month.
On February 05 2013 00:02 yorkey wrote: I've recently read that twitch have announced a turbo feature to their site, which is a premium service in which you pay $8.99 a month to not see adverts on their site.
Now i'm based in the UK and i don't see this when i access twitch so is it just a US thing currently? So firstly i'm wondering if this is actually a thing or if it's just very new.
I like the idea of this service but what i'm wondering is who does this money go to? I never block adverts on streams as i know it brings in some money to the streamer and i like to support them as much as possible. So my worry is, if I was to buy this service do the streamers lose out on money from adverts i could be watching?
Why pay them 8.99 per month when you can just use adblock? It's free.
If that's the attitude you are taking then they would never get any money from you anyway. There are too many people who try to find a justification for their ad blocking and now at least there is not even the slimmest excuse for that. It's very similar to the "piracy is a service problem" thing. There is now a convenient, easily affordable way to block out all ads without depriving twitch or the broadcaster of the income they deserve. If you ignore that and continue to ad block then you are just scum. And people like that will always exist, nothing can done about that, the hope is that there are enough decent people willing to pay for this to be a net gain for everyone involved in streaming.
On February 05 2013 00:59 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: This should lead to a minor improvement in revenue for the regular channels (i.e. 99% of the player streams you watch). The channels will get paid for their ads ran to Turbo users as if the ad was actually seen. This means that if someone previous ad-blocked and now has Turbo, he will count as an ad to the regular channel.
It may be tough on subscriber channels losing some members who prefer to pay for Turbo instead. With polling done by Twitch they state that the majority of subscribers pay because they want to support the channels, and less so for the ad removal. Twitch will be able to monitor what this does to those channels, and hopefully come up with something for it if it turns out to be an issue. It would be kind of cool if you had 3 slots with $1 to give to a channel with subscribers on Twitch.
It needs to be mentioned that Twitch is massive compared to the subscriber channels, and that this is a really important move for their overall business model. It is not an evil business model at all, in fact if they had never offered channels the option to get subscribers (which they didn't need to) then everything would look entirely normal. Sometimes the right move can impact people negatively, but it is important to see things in the right perspective.
Although this isn't great for us (TSL+ had a no ads feature, plans with the player channels) I want to say that I support Twitch doing this. Before anything else; we should all want Twitch to have a healthy business model. There is no doubt this is the right choice for a company like Twitch, and hopefully that will find its way back to our scene in one way or another.
Twitch already takes 50% of the subs money. If they would take 20% I'd be okay with twitch turbo but for now they are undercutting heavily the broadcasters who at the end of the day provide the content for twitch to make money on. I agree it's good for the users and for them but what about us ?
Remember desrow, as Nazgual stated majority of subs are subs because they want to support you directly. If it was a simple case of "I don't want ads" they would just use adblock. You should still have quite similar subscriber numbers as well as the fact as those who were once on ad block and now who use turbo views will help increase your revenue.
This is for the current subscribers. That poll was made for those who are already paying. what about potential new subscribers ? I have no way to make someone subscribe to my channel in the future when they are already paying 9$ for no ads across the whole twitch platform. This kills the growth of every broadcaster on twitch who offers perks and tries to sell subs.
This is a valid point. But you still do have ways. I personally watch your stream a lot and would subscribe if I wasn't a poor uni student. You have a personality that people like. As new people tune into your stream even if they have use turbo and like you a lot they will want to subscribe and support you. However I do agree people are less inclined to subscribe under the new system, to say there is no way you can gain subscribers is wrong. Also think about what else you can offer subscribers that twitch can't. I know you do build orders etc. Maybe do some other things to attract more subs?
With this Twitch Turbo option coming, any word if channel owners will get a slightly higher percentage of the individual channel subs? Since there's now a way to disable ads for all twitch sites, an individual channel sub would potentially mean more to the content producer than before Turbo.
On February 05 2013 00:59 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: This should lead to a minor improvement in revenue for the regular channels (i.e. 99% of the player streams you watch). The channels will get paid for their ads ran to Turbo users as if the ad was actually seen. This means that if someone previous ad-blocked and now has Turbo, he will count as an ad to the regular channel.
It may be tough on subscriber channels losing some members who prefer to pay for Turbo instead. With polling done by Twitch they state that the majority of subscribers pay because they want to support the channels, and less so for the ad removal. Twitch will be able to monitor what this does to those channels, and hopefully come up with something for it if it turns out to be an issue. It would be kind of cool if you had 3 slots with $1 to give to a channel with subscribers on Twitch.
It needs to be mentioned that Twitch is massive compared to the subscriber channels, and that this is a really important move for their overall business model. It is not an evil business model at all, in fact if they had never offered channels the option to get subscribers (which they didn't need to) then everything would look entirely normal. Sometimes the right move can impact people negatively, but it is important to see things in the right perspective.
Although this isn't great for us (TSL+ had a no ads feature, plans with the player channels) I want to say that I support Twitch doing this. Before anything else; we should all want Twitch to have a healthy business model. There is no doubt this is the right choice for a company like Twitch, and hopefully that will find its way back to our scene in one way or another.
Twitch already takes 50% of the subs money. If they would take 20% I'd be okay with twitch turbo but for now they are undercutting heavily the broadcasters who at the end of the day provide the content for twitch to make money on. I agree it's good for the users and for them but what about us ?
Remember desrow, as Nazgual stated majority of subs are subs because they want to support you directly. If it was a simple case of "I don't want ads" they would just use adblock. You should still have quite similar subscriber numbers as well as the fact as those who were once on ad block and now who use turbo views will help increase your revenue.
This is for the current subscribers. That poll was made for those who are already paying. what about potential new subscribers ? I have no way to make someone subscribe to my channel in the future when they are already paying 9$ for no ads across the whole twitch platform. This kills the growth of every broadcaster on twitch who offers perks and tries to sell subs.
What about other incentives? Subscriber only chat during peak hours, playing FFAs with random subscribers for 2 hours weekly. There's still ways.
This only works for really big channel. Small and medium size channel will make their viewers angry. I offer so many perks and I have a pretty good sub count. It's 1/3 of my revenue currently.
On February 05 2013 00:59 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: This should lead to a minor improvement in revenue for the regular channels (i.e. 99% of the player streams you watch). The channels will get paid for their ads ran to Turbo users as if the ad was actually seen. This means that if someone previous ad-blocked and now has Turbo, he will count as an ad to the regular channel.
It may be tough on subscriber channels losing some members who prefer to pay for Turbo instead. With polling done by Twitch they state that the majority of subscribers pay because they want to support the channels, and less so for the ad removal. Twitch will be able to monitor what this does to those channels, and hopefully come up with something for it if it turns out to be an issue. It would be kind of cool if you had 3 slots with $1 to give to a channel with subscribers on Twitch.
It needs to be mentioned that Twitch is massive compared to the subscriber channels, and that this is a really important move for their overall business model. It is not an evil business model at all, in fact if they had never offered channels the option to get subscribers (which they didn't need to) then everything would look entirely normal. Sometimes the right move can impact people negatively, but it is important to see things in the right perspective.
Although this isn't great for us (TSL+ had a no ads feature, plans with the player channels) I want to say that I support Twitch doing this. Before anything else; we should all want Twitch to have a healthy business model. There is no doubt this is the right choice for a company like Twitch, and hopefully that will find its way back to our scene in one way or another.
Twitch already takes 50% of the subs money. If they would take 20% I'd be okay with twitch turbo but for now they are undercutting heavily the broadcasters who at the end of the day provide the content for twitch to make money on. I agree it's good for the users and for them but what about us ?
Remember desrow, as Nazgual stated majority of subs are subs because they want to support you directly. If it was a simple case of "I don't want ads" they would just use adblock. You should still have quite similar subscriber numbers as well as the fact as those who were once on ad block and now who use turbo views will help increase your revenue.
This is for the current subscribers. That poll was made for those who are already paying. what about potential new subscribers ? I have no way to make someone subscribe to my channel in the future when they are already paying 9$ for no ads across the whole twitch platform. This kills the growth of every broadcaster on twitch who offers perks and tries to sell subs.
What about other incentives? Subscriber only chat during peak hours, playing FFAs with random subscribers for 2 hours weekly. There's still ways.
This only works for really big channel. Small and medium size channel will make their viewers angry. I offer so many perks and I have a pretty good sub count. It's 1/3 of my revenue currently.
Well those perks won't change right? You've still got almost all your options, only thing that changes is that getting rid of ads isn't a motivator anymore.
On February 05 2013 00:59 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: This should lead to a minor improvement in revenue for the regular channels (i.e. 99% of the player streams you watch). The channels will get paid for their ads ran to Turbo users as if the ad was actually seen. This means that if someone previous ad-blocked and now has Turbo, he will count as an ad to the regular channel.
It may be tough on subscriber channels losing some members who prefer to pay for Turbo instead. With polling done by Twitch they state that the majority of subscribers pay because they want to support the channels, and less so for the ad removal. Twitch will be able to monitor what this does to those channels, and hopefully come up with something for it if it turns out to be an issue. It would be kind of cool if you had 3 slots with $1 to give to a channel with subscribers on Twitch.
It needs to be mentioned that Twitch is massive compared to the subscriber channels, and that this is a really important move for their overall business model. It is not an evil business model at all, in fact if they had never offered channels the option to get subscribers (which they didn't need to) then everything would look entirely normal. Sometimes the right move can impact people negatively, but it is important to see things in the right perspective.
Although this isn't great for us (TSL+ had a no ads feature, plans with the player channels) I want to say that I support Twitch doing this. Before anything else; we should all want Twitch to have a healthy business model. There is no doubt this is the right choice for a company like Twitch, and hopefully that will find its way back to our scene in one way or another.
Twitch already takes 50% of the subs money. If they would take 20% I'd be okay with twitch turbo but for now they are undercutting heavily the broadcasters who at the end of the day provide the content for twitch to make money on. I agree it's good for the users and for them but what about us ?
Hopefully if it turns out to impact you negatively Twitch will work on an implementation that takes care of the subscriber channels. As far as I know they're entirely open to monitoring how this plays out for your channel.
Playing to peoples emotions by basically saying "subscriber channels are the broadcasters who at the end of the day provide the content for Twitch", is rather unfair to all those channels who don't have a deal like yours. The vast majority of content creators are not negatively impacted by this (in fact slightly positive impact for them). When you say "us" you are only talking about a handful of channels (most of which are financially better off than every other content creator without a subscription deal).
Maybe it pushes subscriber channels to start providing content specifically for their subscribers such as giveaways, Q&A with their subs, etc, in order not to rely on users wanting to remove Twitch ads. We have subscription plans for our players too so I'm in the same boat as you there. If we do subscription channels I would like to see my players try and offer something of value to their fans that they can be happy with, created by ourselves.
Does this hurt individual channels who people had to subscribe to individually? They certainly won't be getting any paid subscribers now. Why should I pay 5$ to subscribe to IPLs twitch channel if I can just get a site-wide subscription?
EDIT: way to not read the thread. Nazgul addressed this literally two posts above >.> <.<
" If they run an ad, you don't see one but they get paid for it as if you had. " from Justin Wong in the comment section of the twitch blog.
I wonder if that means that a fill rate of 100% is assumed for the turbo users or the actual fill rate. If 100% is assumed that could actually increase the income for non-subscribed channels by quite a lot.
i would gladly pay that amount to be able to watch the proleague vods on best quality without lag... the only tournament i've ever had that problem with on twitch
On February 05 2013 01:57 Al Bundy wrote: Gotta love the fact that we have to PAY in order to NOT watch ads. Feels like i'm in business with the Mafia here
Mafia, what? They aren't going to break your kneecaps if you don't pay. This is a pretty regular way of monetizing things.
On February 05 2013 01:57 Al Bundy wrote: Gotta love the fact that we have to PAY in order to NOT watch ads. Feels like i'm in business with the Mafia here. I'll keep using adblock, thanks.
Because Twitch is funded by pixie dust. You are such a special person that the streaming platform has come about just to entertain you. How dare they not be charitable to you.
On February 05 2013 01:57 Al Bundy wrote: Gotta love the fact that we have to PAY in order to NOT watch ads. Feels like i'm in business with the Mafia here
Mafia, what? They aren't going to break your kneecaps if you don't pay. This is a pretty regular way of monetizing things.
Well, that's not a very honest way to do business if you ask me. Back in the days, when people wanted to avoid ads, they simply switched channels. Anyway, there are a lot of foolish people on the internet who are willing to pay for stuff they can get for free, so GLHF to twitch.
On February 05 2013 01:57 Al Bundy wrote: Gotta love the fact that we have to PAY in order to NOT watch ads. Feels like i'm in business with the Mafia here. I'll keep using adblock, thanks.
The paying isn't the issue to be honest, but paying an amount equal to a GSL subscription on a yearly basis is. I cheat twitch (and players) out of maybe 50 cents on a monthly basis by using adblock and I'm not paying 1800% of that to rectify it. Watching the ads is not gonna happen because they're all obnoxious and intrusive, so adblock it is.
Have twitch make a fair offer as an alternative and I might consider it.
So this is for no-ads but not higher definition streams? I still feel subing to a channel directly will help them more. Sure: people will pay for the service, but I feel like the streams may be losing money indirectly...
On February 05 2013 01:57 Al Bundy wrote: Gotta love the fact that we have to PAY in order to NOT watch ads. Feels like i'm in business with the Mafia here. I'll keep using adblock, thanks.
The paying isn't the issue to be honest, but paying an amount equal to a GSL subscription on a yearly basis is. I cheat twitch (and players) out of maybe 50 cents on a monthly basis by using adblock and I'm not paying 1800% of that to rectify it. Watching the ads is not gonna happen because they're all obnoxious and intrusive, so adblock it is.
Have twitch make a fair offer as an alternative and I might consider it.
Making a fair offer is exactly what they are doing after all you selfish fucks bitched and whined and ad blocked if you were ever subjected to the horrors of a noticeable ad. And it's still not enough. You won't consider any alternative offer. You simply want to consume the content, for free, without any inconvenience and that's what you're going to do. Luckily there are some honest people out there or the streaming industry would come crashing down. You are a leech. At least admit to it rather than trying to justify it.
Damn, Nazgul deleting his witty jab. Was wondering why sub thread showed (-1) unread.
Back on topic, I'm sure if the big subscribers notice any fallout from this we will know in the coming weeks. Twitch is pretty responsive with the community so all should be fine. If Twitch has to increase their monetization then so be it. If the model works, twitch works, if it doesn't twitch tries something else or goes under. I highly doubt they are in danger of going under so let's all chill and see if this works or not!
The only problem like I said before is I'm not sure ad-free for $8.99 is worth it to me. I watch my share of streams but mostly tournament streams and less so players. That price point is more than I pay for netflix which is quite a bit more content than game streams. I understand the price points shouldn't be compared like this because of various reasons but it still irks me in some way.
On February 05 2013 01:57 Al Bundy wrote: Gotta love the fact that we have to PAY in order to NOT watch ads. Feels like i'm in business with the Mafia here
Mafia, what? They aren't going to break your kneecaps if you don't pay. This is a pretty regular way of monetizing things.
Well, that's not a very honest way to do business if you ask me. Back in the days, when people wanted to avoid ads, they simply switched channels. Anyway, there are a lot of foolish people on the internet who are willing to pay for stuff they can get for free, so GLHF to twitch.
The back in the day attitude is what holds back innovation. Freemium is much more beneficial to a growing scene than a paywall. See MLG Arenas.
On February 05 2013 01:57 Al Bundy wrote: Gotta love the fact that we have to PAY in order to NOT watch ads. Feels like i'm in business with the Mafia here
Mafia, what? They aren't going to break your kneecaps if you don't pay. This is a pretty regular way of monetizing things.
Well, that's not a very honest way to do business if you ask me. Back in the days, when people wanted to avoid ads, they simply switched channels. Anyway, there are a lot of foolish people on the internet who are willing to pay for stuff they can get for free, so GLHF to twitch.
The back in the day attitude is what holds back innovation. Freemium is much more beneficial to a growing scene than a paywall. See MLG Arenas.
The real ''innovation" would be to broadcast tournaments on an actual TV channel, like the koreans do. There, ads make perfect sense.
Bitches want swords and shit. Take a hint from Blizz and pimp that icon. Battery. Lol. If they wanted to sell this service they'd have a selection of moderately cool pixels for suckers, forgive me, their clientele, to choose from.
On February 05 2013 01:57 Al Bundy wrote: Gotta love the fact that we have to PAY in order to NOT watch ads. Feels like i'm in business with the Mafia here
Mafia, what? They aren't going to break your kneecaps if you don't pay. This is a pretty regular way of monetizing things.
Well, that's not a very honest way to do business if you ask me. Back in the days, when people wanted to avoid ads, they simply switched channels. Anyway, there are a lot of foolish people on the internet who are willing to pay for stuff they can get for free, so GLHF to twitch.
It's not dishonest in any way, I'm not sure how you find anything dishonest in what they are doing.
You have the whole internet at your fingertips, when an ad comes on mute it and read some teamliquid.
On February 05 2013 01:57 Al Bundy wrote: Gotta love the fact that we have to PAY in order to NOT watch ads. Feels like i'm in business with the Mafia here
Mafia, what? They aren't going to break your kneecaps if you don't pay. This is a pretty regular way of monetizing things.
Well, that's not a very honest way to do business if you ask me. Back in the days, when people wanted to avoid ads, they simply switched channels. Anyway, there are a lot of foolish people on the internet who are willing to pay for stuff they can get for free, so GLHF to twitch.
It's not dishonest in any way, I'm not sure how you find anything dishonest in what they are doing.
You have the whole internet at your fingertips, when an ad comes on mute it and read some teamliquid.
From my perspective, they take something that's free and try to sell it. That does not sound legit. Let's be real here; the emoticons, the turbo badge, the expanded chat colors are unnecessary, shallow and superficial and definitely not worth paying for. Also what is a priority customer support? I've been watching twitch for years and I've never had the need to use their customer support.
On February 05 2013 01:57 Al Bundy wrote: Gotta love the fact that we have to PAY in order to NOT watch ads. Feels like i'm in business with the Mafia here
Mafia, what? They aren't going to break your kneecaps if you don't pay. This is a pretty regular way of monetizing things.
Well, that's not a very honest way to do business if you ask me. Back in the days, when people wanted to avoid ads, they simply switched channels. Anyway, there are a lot of foolish people on the internet who are willing to pay for stuff they can get for free, so GLHF to twitch.
It's not dishonest in any way, I'm not sure how you find anything dishonest in what they are doing.
You have the whole internet at your fingertips, when an ad comes on mute it and read some teamliquid.
From my perspective, they take something that's free and try to sell it. That does not sound legit. Let's be real here; the emoticons, the turbo badge, the expanded chat colors are unnecessary, shallow and superficial and definitely not worth paying for. Also what is a priority customer support? I've been watching twitch for years and I've never had the need to use their customer support.
They take something that costs them quite a bit to produce and ask money for it.
You guys are all idiots, we all demand flawless audio and video streaming, yet somehow we feel the right to also feel abused somehow that we have to god-forbid watch ads to sustain that yes things cost money to sustain, if you feel so aggrieved by having to watch ads pay the $8 and stfu.
As for streamers if they don't like the new model go ahead feel free to provide your own streaming service go out invest your own time and money in setting up servers hiring staff finding people to buy your ad space then you can have the lions share of the revenue.
Turbo is actually a great for me, I don't have enough money to sub to multiple people i would want to support and absolutely hate adds. With adblock neither twitch or the streamer get any money cause the ad never gets played for you.
On February 05 2013 01:57 Al Bundy wrote: Gotta love the fact that we have to PAY in order to NOT watch ads. Feels like i'm in business with the Mafia here
Mafia, what? They aren't going to break your kneecaps if you don't pay. This is a pretty regular way of monetizing things.
Well, that's not a very honest way to do business if you ask me. Back in the days, when people wanted to avoid ads, they simply switched channels. Anyway, there are a lot of foolish people on the internet who are willing to pay for stuff they can get for free, so GLHF to twitch.
It's not dishonest in any way, I'm not sure how you find anything dishonest in what they are doing.
You have the whole internet at your fingertips, when an ad comes on mute it and read some teamliquid.
From my perspective, they take something that's free and try to sell it. That does not sound legit. Let's be real here; the emoticons, the turbo badge, the expanded chat colors are unnecessary, shallow and superficial and definitely not worth paying for. Also what is a priority customer support? I've been watching twitch for years and I've never had the need to use their customer support.
They take something that costs them quite a bit to produce and ask money for it.
That's a reasonable way to see things, I can understand that.
On February 05 2013 01:57 Al Bundy wrote: Gotta love the fact that we have to PAY in order to NOT watch ads. Feels like i'm in business with the Mafia here
Mafia, what? They aren't going to break your kneecaps if you don't pay. This is a pretty regular way of monetizing things.
Well, that's not a very honest way to do business if you ask me. Back in the days, when people wanted to avoid ads, they simply switched channels. Anyway, there are a lot of foolish people on the internet who are willing to pay for stuff they can get for free, so GLHF to twitch.
It's not dishonest in any way, I'm not sure how you find anything dishonest in what they are doing.
You have the whole internet at your fingertips, when an ad comes on mute it and read some teamliquid.
From my perspective, they take something that's free and try to sell it. That does not sound legit. Let's be real here; the emoticons, the turbo badge, the expanded chat colors are unnecessary, shallow and superficial and definitely not worth paying for. Also what is a priority customer support? I've been watching twitch for years and I've never had the need to use their customer support.
Bandwidth is not free. Neither is supporting their streamers and viewers. I agree that I'm not looking for the emoticons, badge, chat colours etc. so Turbo isn't for me. That doesn't make it wrong for them to do, or make it wrong for anyone else to want those things.
Priority customer support is exactly what it sounds like. You're taking your singular experience (mine as well, as I've never had an issue) and applying it to everyone else. I can be 100% certain that there have been viewers on twitch that have contacted support in one way or another, and I bet you know that too.
On February 05 2013 01:57 Al Bundy wrote: Gotta love the fact that we have to PAY in order to NOT watch ads. Feels like i'm in business with the Mafia here
Mafia, what? They aren't going to break your kneecaps if you don't pay. This is a pretty regular way of monetizing things.
Well, that's not a very honest way to do business if you ask me. Back in the days, when people wanted to avoid ads, they simply switched channels. Anyway, there are a lot of foolish people on the internet who are willing to pay for stuff they can get for free, so GLHF to twitch.
It's not dishonest in any way, I'm not sure how you find anything dishonest in what they are doing.
You have the whole internet at your fingertips, when an ad comes on mute it and read some teamliquid.
From my perspective, they take something that's free and try to sell it. That does not sound legit. Let's be real here; the emoticons, the turbo badge, the expanded chat colors are unnecessary, shallow and superficial and definitely not worth paying for. Also what is a priority customer support? I've been watching twitch for years and I've never had the need to use their customer support.
Bandwidth is not free. Neither is supporting their streamers and viewers. I agree that I'm not looking for the emoticons, badge, chat colours etc. so Turbo isn't for me. That doesn't make it wrong for them to do, or make it wrong for anyone else to want those things.
Priority customer support is exactly what it sounds like. You're taking your singular experience (mine as well, as I've never had an issue) and applying it to everyone else. I can be 100% certain that there have been viewers on twitch that have contacted support in one way or another, and I bet you know that too.
The free service I was referring to is the ability to disable ads. As a viewer, I can already block ads for free. But you know, the more I read this thread, the more I understand this Turbo deal. As part of the video gaming industry, Twitch is simply doing what other companies are already doing. I guess there is not point blaming them.
On February 05 2013 01:57 Al Bundy wrote: Gotta love the fact that we have to PAY in order to NOT watch ads. Feels like i'm in business with the Mafia here. I'll keep using adblock, thanks.
The paying isn't the issue to be honest, but paying an amount equal to a GSL subscription on a yearly basis is. I cheat twitch (and players) out of maybe 50 cents on a monthly basis by using adblock and I'm not paying 1800% of that to rectify it. Watching the ads is not gonna happen because they're all obnoxious and intrusive, so adblock it is.
Have twitch make a fair offer as an alternative and I might consider it.
Making a fair offer is exactly what they are doing after all you selfish fucks bitched and whined and ad blocked if you were ever subjected to the horrors of a noticeable ad. And it's still not enough. You won't consider any alternative offer. You simply want to consume the content, for free, without any inconvenience and that's what you're going to do. Luckily there are some honest people out there or the streaming industry would come crashing down. You are a leech. At least admit to it rather than trying to justify it.
Something having a price doesn't mean its a fair price. The vast majority of people don't watch enough twitch for this deal to be fair in any way; fair here being the price paid somewhat in the vicinity of the profits of the ads I'm paying to not see. Otherwise you end up with turbo-users subsidizing everyone else that uses the platform.
This is just a cheap shot at trying to get people to pay more than they should for the amount of content they consume, while feeling good about 'supporting e-sports' and just sending 90% of their subscription straight into the pockets of twitch instead of the people actually making the content. It's an exceptionally bad deal compared to subscribing for GSL, MLG, or pretty much anything else you can think of.
I'm surprised that everyone is talking about whether it's ethical or whatever to charge people not to watch ads. I don't even understand how any of the content people disputing this watch would even exist without some sort of income....
Anyways though, a more legitimate conversation I think is about content creation. Without individual channels being incentivized through premium subscriptions, there is less impetus to create additional content, which hurts the overall viewership. If there was a way for individual watchers who purchased this turbo service to incentivize channels for providing additional content it would be win-win for everyone.
I'm curious to see when will Twitch notice that they have absolutely no competition at the moment and that they can screw people as much as they want to..
I'd gladly support Twitch and pay for the service (other than through ads) but only if they actually improved their services. One example would be a half decent Android app, which supports login and VODs. Or just work better than it does today.
On February 05 2013 00:59 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: This should lead to a minor improvement in revenue for the regular channels (i.e. 99% of the player streams you watch). The channels will get paid for their ads ran to Turbo users as if the ad was actually seen. This means that if someone previous ad-blocked and now has Turbo, he will count as an ad to the regular channel.
It may be tough on subscriber channels losing some members who prefer to pay for Turbo instead. With polling done by Twitch they state that the majority of subscribers pay because they want to support the channels, and less so for the ad removal. Twitch will be able to monitor what this does to those channels, and hopefully come up with something for it if it turns out to be an issue. It would be kind of cool if you had 3 slots with $1 to give to a channel with subscribers on Twitch.
It needs to be mentioned that Twitch is massive compared to the subscriber channels, and that this is a really important move for their overall business model. It is not an evil business model at all, in fact if they had never offered channels the option to get subscribers (which they didn't need to) then everything would look entirely normal. Sometimes the right move can impact people negatively, but it is important to see things in the right perspective.
Although this isn't great for us (TSL+ had a no ads feature, plans with the player channels) I want to say that I support Twitch doing this. Before anything else; we should all want Twitch to have a healthy business model. There is no doubt this is the right choice for a company like Twitch, and hopefully that will find its way back to our scene in one way or another.
Twitch already takes 50% of the subs money. If they would take 20% I'd be okay with twitch turbo but for now they are undercutting heavily the broadcasters who at the end of the day provide the content for twitch to make money on. I agree it's good for the users and for them but what about us ?
Hopefully if it turns out to impact you negatively Twitch will work on an implementation that takes care of the subscriber channels. As far as I know they're entirely open to monitoring how this plays out for your channel.
Playing to peoples emotions by basically saying "subscriber channels are the broadcasters who at the end of the day provide the content for Twitch", is rather unfair to all those channels who don't have a deal like yours. The vast majority of content creators are not negatively impacted by this (in fact slightly positive impact for them). When you say "us" you are only talking about a handful of channels (most of which are financially better off than every other content creator without a subscription deal).
Maybe it pushes subscriber channels to start providing content specifically for their subscribers such as giveaways, Q&A with their subs, etc, in order not to rely on users wanting to remove Twitch ads. We have subscription plans for our players too so I'm in the same boat as you there. If we do subscription channels I would like to see my players try and offer something of value to their fans that they can be happy with, created by ourselves.
I see a lot of good coming from this turbo option by twitch, mostly from this bolded portion of Nazgul's post. I subscribe currently to 3 streamers, and aside from CatZ sending random replay packs, there is nothing that these channels do to earn my subscription other than my desire for them to succeed. This isn't to say that they do nothing at all (one of them is JP, who at least seems to do plenty for his subscribers), just that what they do doesn't affect me at all, either due to the time these options (giveaways, interactions, etc) are available compared to when I am, or aren't anything I'm interested in.
With Turbo, I'm able to still give to the streamer (my ad "views" will now count) without feeling that... I don't want to say I'm being cheated because I knew what I was getting myself into, but not getting value for my money. If a streamer wants to keep my subscription, they wont be able to just hold the "you get no ads!" thing over me, they'll have to provide me something that I wouldn't get otherwise.
This will also allow the more dedicated streamers to distance themselves from the rest of the pack. A streamer who goes above and beyond to provide for their subs will earn considerably more money from those who were subscribing, or would subscribe for the ad block alone, because they're now able to entice the viewer to subscribe while having a turbo account (I'm assuming this would give them ad revenue plus subscriber revenue?). Streamers playing a couple FFA's, or ARAMs, duo queuing normal games, 4v4's, raffling off lessons, more dedicated interaction in general for their streamers can really profit from this if it's working out the way I feel it should in a perfect world.
This is in no way a bad thing, and if you're a streamer with a subscription plan already I urge you to see this as an option to take your streaming further. Especially for those gamers who make less money in tournaments and more from their streaming, taking an hour or 2 a day for subs can be even more beneficial for you. I look forward to seeing who does something great with this in the future, and giving them all my money.
I don't understand this whole Ad Block thing... you can't sit there and watch a 20 seconds commercial once in a while to support the streamers? Or like someone mentioned, mute a commercial and do something else on the internet or even get up for a few seconds and do something outside of your pc...
hypothetically a streamer could set up two different streams and call one "PREMIUM" where he plays adds the entire time gaining impressions while no one actually watches any adds and the other stream is his regular "commerical every 20-30 minutes" kinda deal.
On February 05 2013 03:16 NuKE[vZ] wrote: I don't understand this whole Ad Block thing... you can't sit there and watch a 20 seconds commercial once in a while to support the streamers? Or like someone mentioned, mute a commercial and do something else on the internet or even get up for a few seconds and do something outside of your pc...
why do people use Ad Block....?
Because in some countries ads can be more annoying than that ? Like the "interactive" ads (true story) where you have to clic shit in order to actually fucking END the ad. That's really great when it's for some baby products or whatever. Great audience targetting.
Also, some ads run really poorly on lower end PCs and can make the browser freeze/crash.
I had no problem with ads at the beginning of twitch, when it was just a short low quality video thing, but when they started with the "ultra high quality" interactive ads I literally had no choice but to get adblock in order to be able to watch streams at all.
On February 05 2013 03:27 Hitch-22 wrote: hypothetically a streamer could set up two different streams and call one "PREMIUM" where he plays adds the entire time gaining impressions while no one actually watches any adds and the other stream is his regular "commerical every 20-30 minutes" kinda deal.
#profit?
This idea has definitely occured to me. I'd be happy to run Internet Explorer muted in the background whenever i'm on watching an only-ads stream to support certain streamers. The problem with this is that when some people do it, the streamer makes money. When everybody does it, the ad partners give up and don't provide ads which screws the streamers (and twitch). Don't forget that the ad partners expect (quite reasonably, I might add) to get something out of this, not just pay money.
RE: twitch app for android: Sure it isn't perfect but I can watch most streams (that I care about) at 720p lag-free and ad-free at my convenience. I use it a lot and I like it. Sure there could be better features but I'm grateful all the time that twitch has provided this service utterly free of charge that (as far as I know) generates them 0 revenue (no ads) and costs them some non-0 amount of money to fund.
Isnt this better for broadcasters in general since some people that have Turbo had adblock before, and now they are being counted as if they have seen the ad, am I right?
I'll be turbo in a couple days to support all my favorite broadcasters and not have to subscribe to all of them
Interesting idea. But I don't want the features more than the money. Go back to the drawing boards Twitch. Why would I subscribe to a stream and pay for Turbo too? I like that they are trying things though. They are pioneering a new market. The features aren't there for me though.
On February 05 2013 03:16 NuKE[vZ] wrote: I don't understand this whole Ad Block thing... you can't sit there and watch a 20 seconds commercial once in a while to support the streamers? Or like someone mentioned, mute a commercial and do something else on the internet or even get up for a few seconds and do something outside of your pc...
Meh, seems okay. The only legitimate feature I think it may or may not be worth paying for is just the ad revenue thing. I'd probably get it if it was like $5-6/month, but I don't feel like paying $100 a year for something like that. I'd honestly just prefer to adblock and donate to my favourite streamers.
Starting today around 9:00am PST, you can sign up for Twitch Turbo by visiting http://www.twitch.tv/products/turbo, and please feel free to share your thoughts below.
All i hope is that Twitch won't turn for the same as Justin.tv. If you aren't subscriber, you won't be able to watch a certain stream sometimes because of the limit where X amount of people are able to watch the stream from your country, or whatever it is. But i doubt that will happen.
On February 05 2013 00:59 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: This should lead to a minor improvement in revenue for the regular channels (i.e. 99% of the player streams you watch). The channels will get paid for their ads ran to Turbo users as if the ad was actually seen. This means that if someone previous ad-blocked and now has Turbo, he will count as an ad to the regular channel.
It may be tough on subscriber channels losing some members who prefer to pay for Turbo instead. With polling done by Twitch they state that the majority of subscribers pay because they want to support the channels, and less so for the ad removal. Twitch will be able to monitor what this does to those channels, and hopefully come up with something for it if it turns out to be an issue. It would be kind of cool if you had 3 slots with $1 to give to a channel with subscribers on Twitch.
It needs to be mentioned that Twitch is massive compared to the subscriber channels, and that this is a really important move for their overall business model. It is not an evil business model at all, in fact if they had never offered channels the option to get subscribers (which they didn't need to) then everything would look entirely normal. Sometimes the right move can impact people negatively, but it is important to see things in the right perspective.
Although this isn't great for us (TSL+ had a no ads feature, plans with the player channels) I want to say that I support Twitch doing this. Before anything else; we should all want Twitch to have a healthy business model. There is no doubt this is the right choice for a company like Twitch, and hopefully that will find its way back to our scene in one way or another.
Thanks for the kind words, Victor. I couldn't have said it better myself.
This will also help ad-based channels because twitch currently (I believe) has more ad spots than it has ads to show. I could be wrong, but assuming that's true, there are times when it's an ad point but no ad comes up. That means no money. Now you're getting paid for ads shown to the turbo users *without* them using up one of twitch's available ads, meaning that they run out less quickly and there's more total money.
Personally I don't watch any single channel enough to justify shelling out $5 a month. Paying $9 a month to actually support streams I watch is a great option (Twitch's video ad inventory for Ukraine consists of one vodka brand and in past occasional IEM ads)
And well, I can feel less guilt over using Adblock (to not see the same vodka ad over and over again)
I'm interested to see the polling data/response that suggests people will donate/subscribe to streamers they support - it has really great implications.
I really like Victor's point that it also gives subscriber channels an incentive to step up their content and offer something more to their subscribers. I've been more tempted to subscribe to channels that have raffles or extra content for subscribers, rather than a subscription that is no different than a donation. When I see a channel with a subscribe button, but all it does is alleviate ads, I'm not driven to subscribe.
On top of Turbo, I'm interested to see if Twitch will offer more features other than 'no-ads'.
This has big impact on the streamers, I bet if Own3d was still around they wouldnt try this. Many would have switched if Own3d payed on time. More money for Twitch less for the streamers. They only way this would be good is if they take the same percentage as a sub to a channel and divide the rest to channels chosen by the subscriber.
On February 05 2013 00:09 Grettin wrote: Here is the announcement
Ad-free Twitch: No pre-rolls, no mid-rolls, no companions, no display ads, and broadcasters still get paid. All you see are front-page takeovers.
Starting today around 9:00am PST, you can sign up for Twitch Turbo by visiting http://www.twitch.tv/products/turbo, and please feel free to share your thoughts below.
All i hope is that Twitch won't turn for the same as Justin.tv. If you aren't subscriber, you won't be able to watch a certain stream sometimes because of the limit where X amount of people are able to watch the stream from your country, or whatever it is. But i doubt that will happen.
Its safe to say Twitch Turbo has a long development cycle ahead of it. I can't speak to any specifics, but we're gathering as much feedback as possible about cool features and additions we can add to make Turbo a more compelling and beneficial product.
On February 05 2013 03:16 NuKE[vZ] wrote: I don't understand this whole Ad Block thing... you can't sit there and watch a 20 seconds commercial once in a while to support the streamers? Or like someone mentioned, mute a commercial and do something else on the internet or even get up for a few seconds and do something outside of your pc...
why do people use Ad Block....?
ads are like injecting shit to your brain
ads support esports and your favorite players/streamers. They should really come up with a better way to encourage people to disable adblock when watching streamers.
On February 05 2013 03:16 NuKE[vZ] wrote: I don't understand this whole Ad Block thing... you can't sit there and watch a 20 seconds commercial once in a while to support the streamers? Or like someone mentioned, mute a commercial and do something else on the internet or even get up for a few seconds and do something outside of your pc...
why do people use Ad Block....?
ads are like injecting shit to your brain
Well the comment you quoted is wrong in that way that when a concept like "advertisement" is not working on human beings, then there's something wrong with the operationalisation of advertisements. There's never anything wrong with humans, because human nature is a fact and nothing you will be able to change easily, therefore you shouldn't argue to change human nature, but rather adapt your advertisements to the needs of humans. I, for example, really don't care if there is some visual ads between games or every once in a while, but i'm really annoyed by audio ads, especially when they're loud, stupid and hysterical, like 90% of the ad creators believe their ads should actually be. So if there was a option for gentle ads that don't annoy me, I'd totally enable it to support things that i find worthy of supporting, but as it is i use ad blocker or just don't watch streams. And don't underestimate the willingness of people to endure advertisement that they find acceptable, if it supports something that they find worthy of support. If there'd be options how to limit the exposure of ads, they wouldn't automatically go for the lowest, but rather go for something that is a good compromise between support and tolerance.
8,99$ a month is too much, at 7$ CPM (assuming 50-50 split between twitch and channel) that would amount to about 40 ads a day every day, now let's assume your streamer runs 6 ads per hour, that's 6,5 hours of watching streams.
Unless you're the kind of guy that likes to open 3 streams just for kicks you are NOT going to get a good deal out of this . Neither is the streamer.
On February 05 2013 04:22 Cleavin wrote: 8,99$ a month is too much, at 7$ CPM (assuming 50-50 split between twitch and channel) that would amount to about 40 ads a day every day, now let's assume your streamer runs 6 ads per hour, that's 6,5 hours of watching streams.
Unless you're the kind of guy that likes to open 3 streams just for kicks you are NOT going to get a good deal out of this . Neither is the streamer.
Why do I care how much money twitch and the streamer make from each ad? I just don't want to see them!
On February 05 2013 04:22 Cleavin wrote: 8,99$ a month is too much, at 7$ CPM (assuming 50-50 split between twitch and channel) that would amount to about 40 ads a day every day, now let's assume your streamer runs 6 ads per hour, that's 6,5 hours of watching streams.
Unless you're the kind of guy that likes to open 3 streams just for kicks you are NOT going to get a good deal out of this . Neither is the streamer.
Why do I care how much money twitch and the streamer make from each ad? I just don't want to see them!
Not a good argument. If you don't care who gets what, you can just use adblock. If you care about and don't use it, then the question who gets which part of your money is relevant.
On February 05 2013 04:22 Cleavin wrote: 8,99$ a month is too much, at 7$ CPM (assuming 50-50 split between twitch and channel) that would amount to about 40 ads a day every day, now let's assume your streamer runs 6 ads per hour, that's 6,5 hours of watching streams.
Unless you're the kind of guy that likes to open 3 streams just for kicks you are NOT going to get a good deal out of this . Neither is the streamer.
Why do I care how much money twitch and the streamer make from each ad? I just don't want to see them!
I am actually part of the ones targeted with this, ever since twitch came to be, I only got shown about 10 ads.
This is them making easy & plenty of money instead of looking for deals in more countries.
If you're not working on getting deals to have companies buy ad-space and instead offer a ridiculously easy to maintain feature, at least expect to make less money from it that if you would have otherwise.
On February 05 2013 04:25 jax1492 wrote: Did they say how the 9$ is going back to the streamers?
Everything is here in the thread or in their blog.
Broadcasters are paid on a per-impressions basis for ads. If a Turbo user would have seen an ad, it's recorded and the broadcaster is paid as if the user had been shown one.
Ad-free Twitch: No pre-rolls, no mid-rolls, no companions, no display ads, and broadcasters still get paid. All you see are front-page takeovers.
Twitch should provide a similar service to Sky Sports, ESPN and the equivalent. In a matter of fact, all business operations are highly dependant on numbers and volume. Twitch should focus their efforts in concentrating viewers into a lesser number of streams and providing higher quality content.
As popular as streaming appears, its not actually all that big... for the millions of gamers there are, i seldom see many live streams with mass amounts of viewers.
I think Twitch should buy rights streaming rights and then turn that cost into a profit through ads and pay per view. The quality of viewing will improve and then more people will watch. Leave VOD and all that to youtube...
As a suporter of responsible adblocking, I'm ok with this. I already don't adblock streams that provide decent content (and don't watch others) and when I'm back to being able to watch streams more often again, I'll probably end up picking it up since I really hate ads.
Would probably pick up a TSL+ pass again too anway (if available) when the time comes.
On February 05 2013 04:34 Didge wrote: Twitch should provide a similar service to Sky Sports, ESPN and the equivalent. In a matter of fact, all business operations are highly dependant on numbers and volume. Twitch should focus their efforts in concentrating viewers into a lesser number of streams and providing higher quality content.
As popular as streaming appears, its not actually all that big... for the millions of gamers there are, i seldom see many live streams with mass amounts of viewers.
I think Twitch should buy rights streaming rights and then turn that cost into a profit through ads and pay per view. The quality of viewing will improve and then more people will watch. Leave VOD and all that to youtube...
No. 1. This would mean I am unable to stream. 2. If Twitch went PPV I would stop watching Twitch.
I've been a long time subscriber to justin.tv pro, which offered similiar benefits @ I believe ~$10 a month. Was worth it for me at that price point, so I don't see why I wouldn't subscribe to twitch turbo.
On February 05 2013 04:14 FishStix wrote: Its safe to say Twitch Turbo has a long development cycle ahead of it. I can't speak to any specifics, but we're gathering as much feedback as possible about cool features and additions we can add to make Turbo a more compelling and beneficial product.
So in other words this pay model is in "beta" yet you are going to try to sell it now for the same price as when it is completed. I for one prefer a model that starts at a lower price point to gauge interest and iron out the service and then, and only then, raise the price.
On February 05 2013 04:14 FishStix wrote: Its safe to say Twitch Turbo has a long development cycle ahead of it. I can't speak to any specifics, but we're gathering as much feedback as possible about cool features and additions we can add to make Turbo a more compelling and beneficial product.
So in other words this pay model is in "beta" yet you are going to try to sell it now for the same price as when it is completed. I for one prefer a model that starts at a lower price point to gauge interest and iron out the service and then, and only then, raise the price.
With your logic, any game before an expansion is in beta. What they are releasing is a complete product, raising prices would cause anger, people would question why they have to pay more.
Edit: Oh dear god I wrote you're instead of you're.
meh another service I don't think alot of people will use, considering the number of people that already use adblock including me. Just another way for them to make money.
Doesn't it kind of take the power away from the streamers in terms of subscribers? People will be less inclined to directly support a streamer this way because they already have a subscription to everything.
On February 05 2013 04:14 FishStix wrote: Its safe to say Twitch Turbo has a long development cycle ahead of it. I can't speak to any specifics, but we're gathering as much feedback as possible about cool features and additions we can add to make Turbo a more compelling and beneficial product.
So in other words this pay model is in "beta" yet you are going to try to sell it now for the same price as when it is completed. I for one prefer a model that starts at a lower price point to gauge interest and iron out the service and then, and only then, raise the price.
With your logic, any game before an expansion is in beta. What they are releasing is a complete product, raising prices would cause anger, people would question why they have to pay more.
Edit: Oh dear god I wrote you're instead of you're.
Not Quite. All I said was I prefer it that way. This happens all the time in the game industry - games are released before they are truly finished, yet developers charge full price up front and promise to fix it in patches. Same with expansions. What I am saying is a more logical (in my mind) route is a model such as Minecraft. When Minecraft was initially released in alpha it was sold at a much lower price point based on the fact that it was incomplete. As it progressed through beta and into full release, the price was raised. Point being start at a low price and raise it when the product is worth it.
I am in no way trying to bash Twitch or tell them how to run their business. They are going to do what they are going to do. However with the list of features currently included in this package, I do not find the price worth the product.
On February 05 2013 04:14 FishStix wrote: Its safe to say Twitch Turbo has a long development cycle ahead of it. I can't speak to any specifics, but we're gathering as much feedback as possible about cool features and additions we can add to make Turbo a more compelling and beneficial product.
So in other words this pay model is in "beta" yet you are going to try to sell it now for the same price as when it is completed. I for one prefer a model that starts at a lower price point to gauge interest and iron out the service and then, and only then, raise the price.
With your logic, any game before an expansion is in beta. What they are releasing is a complete product, raising prices would cause anger, people would question why they have to pay more.
Edit: Oh dear god I wrote you're instead of you're.
Not Quite. All I said was I prefer it that way. This happens all the time in the game industry - games are released before they are truly finished, yet developers charge full price up front and promise to fix it in patches. Same with expansions. What I am saying is a more logical (in my mind) route is a model such as Minecraft. When Minecraft was initially released in alpha it was sold at a much lower price point based on the fact that it was incomplete. As it progressed through beta and into full release, the price was raised. Point being start at a low price and raise it when the product is worth it.
I am in no way trying to bash Twitch or tell them how to run their business. They are going to do what they are going to do. However with the list of features currently included in this package, I do not find the price worth the product.
Beta implies an incomplete product though, this is a complete product, just because you do not deem it worth buying does not make it incomplete. I personally am not going to buy it because I'm happy to watch adverts but there are plenty of people who would be willing to pay 9 dollars for no adverts and I'm sure people who watch Twitch a lot will.
On February 05 2013 04:14 FishStix wrote: Its safe to say Twitch Turbo has a long development cycle ahead of it. I can't speak to any specifics, but we're gathering as much feedback as possible about cool features and additions we can add to make Turbo a more compelling and beneficial product.
So in other words this pay model is in "beta" yet you are going to try to sell it now for the same price as when it is completed. I for one prefer a model that starts at a lower price point to gauge interest and iron out the service and then, and only then, raise the price.
With your logic, any game before an expansion is in beta. What they are releasing is a complete product, raising prices would cause anger, people would question why they have to pay more.
Edit: Oh dear god I wrote you're instead of you're.
Not Quite. All I said was I prefer it that way. This happens all the time in the game industry - games are released before they are truly finished, yet developers charge full price up front and promise to fix it in patches. Same with expansions. What I am saying is a more logical (in my mind) route is a model such as Minecraft. When Minecraft was initially released in alpha it was sold at a much lower price point based on the fact that it was incomplete. As it progressed through beta and into full release, the price was raised. Point being start at a low price and raise it when the product is worth it.
I am in no way trying to bash Twitch or tell them how to run their business. They are going to do what they are going to do. However with the list of features currently included in this package, I do not find the price worth the product.
You have to pay to play alpha?? and beta? It's not about the complete product. It's more about a stable product. If a product is stable and ready to be used by the mass, it can be released and be charged. There's no such thing as a complete product. Games have to be patched, bug fix,.... all the time. You can't expect a such a complete game/software to be existed without fixing.
On February 05 2013 00:27 Detri wrote: For me this is great, I hate AD's (even though I white list twitch and teamliquid <3) For just £5 a month I can be without ads and not feel like I'm stealing content from the streamers.
Now for a teamliquid+ option ? :D
At least TLs ads are non-intrusive banners usually of qt asians, rather than the Devil May Cry advert which blasted my ears every 5 minutes, or the fucking Blops2 DLC advert which is awful because it reminds me of how big a scam the DLC packs for that game are.
why don't i get these?
unless it's targeted advertising based on browsing history...
How is twitch balancing out the problem where you either 1) cant directly replace "impression" with "turbo dollars" since that would mean subscribers from 3rd world countries like mine - who normally get 0 ads - would not help streamers at all. 2) cant give flat sum per "turbo viewer" per ad - since that would reward ad spammers more over people with higher viewer count, but less ads per hour ?
id honestly prefer a simple system where each "turbo viewer"-s subscription fee gets divided fairly between the channels he has viewed per minute/hour - with twitch taking its cut...
On February 05 2013 00:27 Detri wrote: For me this is great, I hate AD's (even though I white list twitch and teamliquid <3) For just £5 a month I can be without ads and not feel like I'm stealing content from the streamers.
Now for a teamliquid+ option ? :D
At least TLs ads are non-intrusive banners usually of qt asians, rather than the Devil May Cry advert which blasted my ears every 5 minutes, or the fucking Blops2 DLC advert which is awful because it reminds me of how big a scam the DLC packs for that game are.
why don't i get these?
unless it's targeted advertising based on browsing history...
Ads are usually generated by your browsing history. I use ad-block at home (omg im satan) with certain sites whitelisted. However, at work my ads constantly change. For about 2 weeks after shopping for an engagement ring all of my ad banners on TL were for diamond/ring companies, pretty funny.
This could improve the quality of stream chats massively if enough people get the turbo. It would cut off trolls pretty effectively since most people probably don't want to get their paid accounts banned. Turbo only chats could be a great selling point for twitch. The problem with subscriber-only chats so far has been that there usually hasn't been big enough population to have a vibrant chat.
On February 05 2013 00:23 yorkey wrote: so any ideas how ad revenue will go to the broadcasters? Like if i paid for the turbo sub and was watching a stream but see no ad's how will the broadcasters get money if i'm not seeing them?
Every turbo user watching the stream will count as an impression.
Ahhh I see how this works then. It is very unlikely that anybody would watch $8.99 worth of ads. So Twitch will make extra money off of this. Basically, they will take your 8.99, and then subtract money from that for each ad you watch and give it to the broadcaster. Then what's left over from your 8.99, I'm guessing they keep? That's pretty smart.
Good for Twitch bad for Streamers who don't run ads as a part of their subscription service. I suppose people willing to support their favorite players will continue to do so. Also will make Streamers find new creative ideas for Subscribers.
Saw this announcement earlier today. My initial impression is that it will harm the channels that have subscriber-only modes to bypass ads. Why subscribe to a channel for $5 when you can get all of Twitch for $8.99? Most of those channels have other features like chat icons/emotes, but, I think a lot of people will be paying the $8.99 and finding it unreasonable to shell out anything beyond that.
Good move in my opinion. I watch around 10 different streams regularly, there is no way I am paying $4.99 a month to each one of those streams. but I might be inclined to pay $8.99 for a site wide subscription. Currently the feature list isnt what I am looking for though, I will see what else they can come up with. But I would like to see a vastly improved android application first. The current one is good, but you cant log in, you cant chat, even if you were a subscriber to a channel you cant log into it to get your entitlement. They could also offer picture in picture if I want to keep my eye on another stream while waiting for the next game to start (dont say open 2 windows, i watch full screen baby). They should also offer an optimised streaming program with this so turbo users can stream a bit too without having to pay for the full cost of something like xsplit. I would also like to see turbo users who get streams from higher capacity servers to guarantee completly lag free viewing.
On February 05 2013 00:23 yorkey wrote: so any ideas how ad revenue will go to the broadcasters? Like if i paid for the turbo sub and was watching a stream but see no ad's how will the broadcasters get money if i'm not seeing them?
Every turbo user watching the stream will count as an impression.
Ah ok, well i quite like the idea of it.
One thing i was wondering though. (sorry for so many questions) is currently broadcasters put up subs for their stream to support them, and you get no ads etc on their channel but now for a bit more you get no ads on all channels, right? so won't broadcasters lose out on quite a bit of money from people who would normally subscribe but have moved to the turbo sub?
Yep, it feels weird because this way Turbo will be a tough competition for any channel trying to get subscribers.
I moderate several channels including OneMoreGametv which can average 2000- 6000 viewers. While reading chat the majority of the complaints I see are due to commercials and stream lag. The people I see who subscribe to channels only do so because they want to support the person streaming and want to make sure that more content is delivered to them. Twitch is a business and has to look at things on a site wide model. If streamers are concerned that they will lose subs they will have to look into delivering better content. Fan games , interaction, commentary, special shout outs , viewer call ins are just some ideas but in the end its up to the person streaming to understand what their fan base wants and expects.
Turbo is a nice beginning to go to payperview Like, u get special shows and rebroadcasts that only turbo's can see. Im thinkin turbo would catch on pretty fast. Like a sort of day9daily interactive kinda show done by Polt on the fly!
Edit : Saying that, it seems i want more specific, addfree and higher quality content made for me! Then i would pay maybe
Will be interesting to see how this works out. I'm not too interested in the deal myself, since I rarely like to hang out in the stream chats, and I don't mind seeing ads (since there's not that much interesting stuff going on the stream when the ads are rolling).
This seems like a good move for Twitch, a stronger Twitch should mean a better service for streamers/viewers so it only hurts streamers who aren't offering enough to warrant the $5 a month.
This is the exact same program Justin.TV had 2 years ago except that one used to be only $5.00 a month. Even the features are nearly identical (although it did give you some mini gifts back in the day).
On February 05 2013 06:52 NuclearStar wrote: Good move in my opinion. I watch around 10 different streams regularly, there is no way I am paying $4.99 a month to each one of those streams. but I might be inclined to pay $8.99 for a site wide subscription. Currently the feature list isnt what I am looking for though, I will see what else they can come up with. But I would like to see a vastly improved android application first. The current one is good, but you cant log in, you cant chat, even if you were a subscriber to a channel you cant log into it to get your entitlement. They could also offer picture in picture if I want to keep my eye on another stream while waiting for the next game to start (dont say open 2 windows, i watch full screen baby). They should also offer an optimised streaming program with this so turbo users can stream a bit too without having to pay for the full cost of something like xsplit. I would also like to see turbo users who get streams from higher capacity servers to guarantee completly lag free viewing.
Streamers should be migrating or migrated to OBS anyways.
Here is why current streamers are concerned: current system benefits them personally, but screws over almost everyone else.
Previously if I ~~~didn't want see ads on Twitch~~~ didn't want to feel guilty over using AdBlock, I had only option to support some specific streamers. If I watched some other streamers with AdBlock on (or Twitch just didn't have an ad to play in my country), they were screwed.
Now Twitch gives an option that actually benefits EVERYONE -- not just Twitch themselves, not just stream watchers -- but all streamers. On the other hand that option means some people will drop current subscriptions -- and you know why? Because they DIDN'T ACTUALLY WANT those subscriptions. People like desRow are afraid, because they benefitted from their viewers not having a good option. And now people will have a good option.
In the end, with Turbo more people will give their money to Twitch and that will lead to higher revenue for all streamers. At least some people from countries with bad ad inventory will start give you income (probably they will still be minority, but they will offset those subscribers you will loose)
Guess who won't be loosing too many subscribers? Day9, because he gives enough incentives for his subscribers.
PS. All that said, $5 will probably be too high for a single channel subscription. We should push Twitch to lower the subscription cost ot $3-4, while still giving $2-2.5 of it to streamers. Current 50/50 split doesn't seem fair (it may be well-founded economically, but not seeming fair still counts)
On February 05 2013 00:23 yorkey wrote: so any ideas how ad revenue will go to the broadcasters? Like if i paid for the turbo sub and was watching a stream but see no ad's how will the broadcasters get money if i'm not seeing them?
Reading the comments, someone said this. I couldn't find the exact comment by a twitch employee though.
Read some of the new comments from the staff before talking. Twitch automatically records when a Turbo member watches, and counts it as though an ad was watched, even though an ad isn't shown. So the broadcaster still gets paid the same.
Broadcasters are paid on a per-impressions basis for ads. If a Turbo user would have seen an ad, it's recorded and the broadcaster is paid as if the user had been shown one.
does gunrun comment means that if the Twitch Turbo user is from a country that doesnt get ad, the broadcaster won't get anything since if the user wasn't turbo nothing would be gained anyway?
On February 05 2013 00:23 yorkey wrote: so any ideas how ad revenue will go to the broadcasters? Like if i paid for the turbo sub and was watching a stream but see no ad's how will the broadcasters get money if i'm not seeing them?
Reading the comments, someone said this. I couldn't find the exact comment by a twitch employee though.
Read some of the new comments from the staff before talking. Twitch automatically records when a Turbo member watches, and counts it as though an ad was watched, even though an ad isn't shown. So the broadcaster still gets paid the same.
GunRuns comment:
Broadcasters are paid on a per-impressions basis for ads. If a Turbo user would have seen an ad, it's recorded and the broadcaster is paid as if the user had been shown one.
does gunrun comment means that if the Twitch Turbo user is from a country that doesnt get ad, the broadcaster won't get anything since if the user wasn't turbo nothing would be gained anyway?
Let's be honest here. What is the point of Turbo if you don't see ads anyway?
Doesn't make much sense to me because there are planned gaps by the broadcaster to display ads. The only thing that this might help with are ignoring annoying commercials (God I hate those AIMs dog food commercials where a dog just grunts non-stop) and no commercial when you first open the page. But is it worth 8.99 a month?
I use adblock, and I'm not sure why the vast majority of people don't. I'm not saying anyone should or should not use it, I'm just saying I fricking love it. yeah yeah... you can say, "well if everyone did that, there would be nothing to watch," but that isn't true. Twitch and youtube would just figure out a way around it. Bottom line is, adblock is not seriously enough affecting "impressions" to warrant doing anything about it directly... unless I'm completely wrong and twitch has yet to implement a solution, but I see this "subscription move" on twitch's part as evidence against that. They're simply making bank on the vast majority of peoples' ignorance of adblock and how to use it. I watched ads during the superbowl, because I couldn't block them, but 1/2 the time, i just muted the TV (they were pretty bad... I mean, how the hell was there a pistacio harvesting commercial during the damned superbowl... but I digress). Are you saying I shouldn't mute my TV? Same logic as saying I shouldn't use adblock. <shrug>
On February 05 2013 00:23 yorkey wrote: so any ideas how ad revenue will go to the broadcasters? Like if i paid for the turbo sub and was watching a stream but see no ad's how will the broadcasters get money if i'm not seeing them?
Reading the comments, someone said this. I couldn't find the exact comment by a twitch employee though.
Read some of the new comments from the staff before talking. Twitch automatically records when a Turbo member watches, and counts it as though an ad was watched, even though an ad isn't shown. So the broadcaster still gets paid the same.
GunRuns comment:
Broadcasters are paid on a per-impressions basis for ads. If a Turbo user would have seen an ad, it's recorded and the broadcaster is paid as if the user had been shown one.
does gunrun comment means that if the Twitch Turbo user is from a country that doesnt get ad, the broadcaster won't get anything since if the user wasn't turbo nothing would be gained anyway?
Yes that is correct. You do not get money that you would not have gotten anyways. If you wouldn't have served that viewer an ad, why would you get paid for not serving that viewer an ad? Turbo or otherwise.
It's so hard it seems for everyone not to put the "evil" spin on everything these days, government, military and now even Twitch This is a very nice business model, Nazgul said somewhere in here a much better version of this, but some negative things occur, this doesn't mean it's not moving in the right direction.
On February 05 2013 10:52 Hitch-22 wrote: It's so hard it seems for everyone not to put the "evil" spin on everything these days, government, military and now even Twitch This is a very nice business model, Nazgul said somewhere in here a much better version of this, but some negative things occur, this doesn't mean it's not moving in the right direction.
At some point, we needed to give money directly to Twitch or somebody. I used to pay for cable tv(a lot more than $9) and I am willing to pay for Twitch if it means I get better quality stuff.
Just putting it out there right now, I will pay cash money for a Roku/Apple TV app so I don't have to deal with any bullshit with a PC or my Iphone(Airplay). Cash money on a monthly basis, higher than $9. Listen and understand. Cash money.
On February 05 2013 10:42 banzaiib wrote: I use adblock, and I'm not sure why the vast majority of people don't. I'm not saying anyone should or should not use it, I'm just saying I fricking love it. yeah yeah... you can say, "well if everyone did that, there would be nothing to watch," but that isn't true. Twitch and youtube would just figure out a way around it. Bottom line is, adblock is not seriously enough affecting "impressions" to warrant doing anything about it directly... unless I'm completely wrong and twitch has yet to implement a solution, but I see this "subscription move" on twitch's part as evidence against that. They're simply making bank on the vast majority of peoples' ignorance of adblock and how to use it. I watched ads during the superbowl, because I couldn't block them, but 1/2 the time, i just muted the TV (they were pretty bad... I mean, how the hell was there a pistacio harvesting commercial during the damned superbowl... but I digress). Are you saying I shouldn't mute my TV? Same logic as saying I shouldn't use adblock. <shrug>
<3
You are wrong.
Adblock is cutting ad revenue for the sites/streamers by way more then 50%.
I think the timing for introducing Turbo is a bit off (with the demise of Own3d, the proud wearers of tinfoil hats can see all kinds of things in it), and the service itself is interesting, but not something that I'd personally be interested in. Most of the streams I watch a lot of are semi-professional in terms of having ad breaks built into the programming, and some include non-Twitch ads directly in the video feed. I can subscribe directly to specific channels and support them, and unless I'm going to be subscribing to enough channels to surpass the $9 a month, it's okay for me to see ads here and there on other channels I might watch every once in a while.
There's some credence to be given to the argument over direct subscriber revenue - if paying $9 a month conveys the same benefits across all channels then why subscribe to only one channel? (I see a rise coming in the number of "Sub only" chats. It's the only real difference that I can see between Turbo and sub to a channel.) But then, someone else has already said that better programming and better quality programming is the better bet, to offer real quality to bring subscriptions up.
I'm mixed over it, really. I mean, between the bogeyman of ad-block, and a cable-esque move from "a la carte" to "bundled" channel price models, it makes me scratch my head. It could be the greatest thing since sliced bread, or it could be market consolidation.
Not that it directly affects me, as a streamer, since my max concurrents of 3 puts me a LOOOOONG way from partnership or even thinking I'm worth watching. :D
On February 05 2013 09:27 Alexj wrote:PS. All that said, $5 will probably be too high for a single channel subscription. We should push Twitch to lower the subscription cost ot $3-4, while still giving $2-2.5 of it to streamers. Current 50/50 split doesn't seem fair (it may be well-founded economically, but not seeming fair still counts)
Streamers can set their subscription rates to whatever they want, and it doesn't even need to be monthly. I agree though, a lot of people are paying for subscriptions that they don't really want, but I still would rather see that money go towards streamers than to Twitch.
On February 05 2013 10:42 banzaiib wrote: I use adblock, and I'm not sure why the vast majority of people don't. I'm not saying anyone should or should not use it, I'm just saying I fricking love it. yeah yeah... you can say, "well if everyone did that, there would be nothing to watch," but that isn't true. Twitch and youtube would just figure out a way around it. Bottom line is, adblock is not seriously enough affecting "impressions" to warrant doing anything about it directly... unless I'm completely wrong and twitch has yet to implement a solution, but I see this "subscription move" on twitch's part as evidence against that. They're simply making bank on the vast majority of peoples' ignorance of adblock and how to use it. I watched ads during the superbowl, because I couldn't block them, but 1/2 the time, i just muted the TV (they were pretty bad... I mean, how the hell was there a pistacio harvesting commercial during the damned superbowl... but I digress). Are you saying I shouldn't mute my TV? Same logic as saying I shouldn't use adblock. <shrug>
adblock negates about 70% of paid impressions, so yes, you're incorrect. Sure it's not killing the industry, but streaming is barely sustainable as is. As a corollary to your argument about everyone using adblock, I would say, if nobody used adblock, we would have a lot more people willing to stream part-time or full-time, and they'd have a much easier time doing so with more realistic (400-600) viewerbases. You should disable it for streams that you support.
pay for gom, pay for mlg gold pay for proleague, pay for nasl. i'm tapped out on money to spend now and twitch offers nothing substantial for $8.99 anyhow. twitch would have probably been better off opting for a pay what you want strategy. all the cheapskates use adblock anyway while other people can choose how much they want to pledge.
Can sb explain me why our lovely spam advertisement industry is such a bitch when it comes to internet advertising?
I don't look at them in my weekly newspaper or monthly magazin, I even didnt watch one commercial on Superbowl. Cant serious remember one product and i watched the whole thing...btw the half time show was boring this season. Somehow they are just interested in "Stream Viewers" and thats it. Why not same way with internet ?
And Turbo is in my opinion a nice thing for twitch but just wreck the subs button with this option.
On February 05 2013 11:32 Terranist wrote: pay for gom, pay for mlg gold pay for proleague, pay for nasl. i'm tapped out on money to spend now and twitch offers nothing substantial for $8.99 anyhow. twitch would have probably been better off opting for a pay what you want strategy. all the cheapskates use adblock anyway while other people can choose how much they want to pledge.
Actually, I think most people pay for the user icon.
Imo, the subscriber benefits are pathetic. The idea in general is fine, but I don't see anything worthwhile that would inspire me to spend 9 bucks. Hell, I can watch an endless slew of professionally created movies and tv shows for less than that via netflix.
Again, I like the idea, and believe they should aim for a better payment plan than merely ads, but some more interesting benefits would be nice.
However, as someone mentioned, if things turn into a system where only x amount of viewers per region can watch w/o paying, then the subscription would mean more for me. But as it is, I've never run into a problem of not being allowed/able to watch a stream.
Edit: Nvm, I forgot how much I've always wanted taupe as my text color.
so how does the streamer benefit from this? do they get any money out of this when the premium viewers are on their stream or does twitch just implement this now because zero competition and allows them to make more money and screw out the streamers.... esports!
As soon as I get a part time job Ill get this. Love twitch, and I understand that not everyone can get the full quality service that twitch has to offer since the number of viewers are staggering.
I tend to lag a lot when I watch specific streams, like Korok's for example. Im sure if you've been around twitch long enough, you've discovered certain streams that lag for you specifically even though you know 100% sure that its not on your end.
I don't think it's a bad thing twitch makes more money and if you don't want so sub to like 5 different channels you can just get the turbo thingy. I'm rather shocked how the majority uses ad-block. It's so easy to sit through 20 seconds of this stuff and do something different for a second to support the streamer,the site or your favorite youtuber.
It's only a matter of time until premium content on Twitch is reserved for people that fork out more money. I can't imagine this model working out for MLG or ESL. Next month: "now introducing Turbo Gold Premium"
they should integrate a donation system like Afreeca's balloons/stickers, I would totally shoot balloons at my favorite streamers lol. It honestly adds a lot to the viewer/broadcaster dynamic and makes watching streams much more enjoyable lol
On February 05 2013 13:02 brieN wrote: so how does the streamer benefit from this? do they get any money out of this when the premium viewers are on their stream or does twitch just implement this now because zero competition and allows them to make more money and screw out the streamers.... esports!
Read the article please,
Ad-free Twitch: No pre-rolls, no mid-rolls, no companions, no display ads, and broadcasters still get paid. All you see are front-page takeovers.
they are still counting the person with Turbo as seeing the add.
would be nice if they'd just fix the way the application works with ads. So many times the stream would freeze after an ad, or stay black screen with audio, etc etc. Wouldn't mind sitting through the ad if I didn't have to sit through it every time it freezes and I have to reload.
On February 05 2013 10:42 banzaiib wrote: I use adblock, and I'm not sure why the vast majority of people don't. I'm not saying anyone should or should not use it, I'm just saying I fricking love it. yeah yeah... you can say, "well if everyone did that, there would be nothing to watch," but that isn't true. Twitch and youtube would just figure out a way around it. Bottom line is, adblock is not seriously enough affecting "impressions" to warrant doing anything about it directly... unless I'm completely wrong and twitch has yet to implement a solution, but I see this "subscription move" on twitch's part as evidence against that. They're simply making bank on the vast majority of peoples' ignorance of adblock and how to use it. I watched ads during the superbowl, because I couldn't block them, but 1/2 the time, i just muted the TV (they were pretty bad... I mean, how the hell was there a pistacio harvesting commercial during the damned superbowl... but I digress). Are you saying I shouldn't mute my TV? Same logic as saying I shouldn't use adblock. <shrug>
<3
You are wrong.
Adblock is cutting ad revenue for the sites/streamers by way more then 50%.
Cutting into it short term yes, long term no, making people watch ads just to support streamers when they have no intention of buying the products in the first place does nothing other than lower the CPM rate for the ad because the company isnt getting the return they expect.
Example, company gets 1000 impressions, they expect $20 in sales from it, so the CPM will be $10
Lets say people stopped using adblock, and just watched to support, say its 20% of people do this. that turns this 1000 impressions into 800 because 200 are completely pointless and will never buy the product. This means that the company doesn't see a $20 sale, they see $16 so the next time they buy addspace they will lower the CPM to accomodate for the reduction in sales.
This was a rough off the top of my head but you should get the point. In the long run let adblock people adblock but just tell them to piss off if they EVER ask for anything from the streamer or organisation running the stream because they are useless to them.
Does no other adblock user feel guilty for using it when watching streams? It seriously hurts me when I find myself enjoying streams that I'm not subbed to because I know I'm stealing from the streamer.
$9 to alleviate that guilt is fine by me. I really don't care how much goes to twitch since it makes me feel like less of a dick.
On February 05 2013 16:50 Wheats wrote: Does no other adblock user feel guilty for using it when watching streams? It seriously hurts me when I find myself enjoying streams that I'm not subbed to because I know I'm stealing from the streamer.
$9 to alleviate that guilt is fine by me. I really don't care how much goes to twitch since it makes me feel like less of a dick.
I too also feel guilty. I will buy Twitch turbo knowing that I can skip the ads and still support the streamer.
On February 05 2013 00:59 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: This should lead to a minor improvement in revenue for the regular channels (i.e. 99% of the player streams you watch). The channels will get paid for their ads ran to Turbo users as if the ad was actually seen. This means that if someone previous ad-blocked and now has Turbo, he will count as an ad to the regular channel.
It may be tough on subscriber channels losing some members who prefer to pay for Turbo instead. With polling done by Twitch they state that the majority of subscribers pay because they want to support the channels, and less so for the ad removal. Twitch will be able to monitor what this does to those channels, and hopefully come up with something for it if it turns out to be an issue. It would be kind of cool if you had 3 slots with $1 to give to a channel with subscribers on Twitch.
It needs to be mentioned that Twitch is massive compared to the subscriber channels, and that this is a really important move for their overall business model. It is not an evil business model at all, in fact if they had never offered channels the option to get subscribers (which they didn't need to) then everything would look entirely normal. Sometimes the right move can impact people negatively, but it is important to see things in the right perspective.
Although this isn't great for us (TSL+ had a no ads feature, plans with the player channels) I want to say that I support Twitch doing this. Before anything else; we should all want Twitch to have a healthy business model. There is no doubt this is the right choice for a company like Twitch, and hopefully that will find its way back to our scene in one way or another.
Twitch already takes 50% of the subs money. If they would take 20% I'd be okay with twitch turbo but for now they are undercutting heavily the broadcasters who at the end of the day provide the content for twitch to make money on. I agree it's good for the users and for them but what about us ?
From someone who has handled the infrastructure of high bandwidth applications and the consequences of high resolution streaming, you're getting 50% because streaming; to put it bluntly, is fucking expensive.
From Twitch's point of view, they have a big problem. Adblock - loud ads, ads that end up being intrusive or repetitive. What ever it may be, ads are blocked. Twitch turbo, which gives an impression every time an ad is played when the twitch turbo subscriber does NOT see the ad is a pretty good middle ground. This essentially "pays in advance" all the ads + a shit ton more that a normal viewer would not see. A power user of twitch might find this to be a pretty good deal. The streams they watch get supported, twitch gets more reliable income that they can use as credit, or bankable assets to invest in infrastructure instead of going from paycheque to paycheque THEN making the decision to do a hardware build out or an upgrade in bandwidth tier from a backbone provider.
You've seen Own3d go under because of statements of "what about us". They offered VERY competitive rates or bonuses to streamers in order to get them to broadcast under own3d. Even with a smaller hardware and broadband investment and a more focused approach to a singular market they were very much underwater. Do I have #'s or real examples of their overhead. No.
A big thing to remember is that a company that deals in very manly amounts of video and swarms of people watching streams (120k+ for big tourny days) all watching in 1080i-can't-count-how-many-pixels-there-are-on-the-screen resolution is a titanic strain on any given system.
We can use netflix as a general example of internet streaming usage:
^ This is your new best friend. You're now tunneling so much fucking bandwidth that you need a company that owns a backbone pipe across the nation. Well, that's a cool link and claim, what's the backup behind that? Couldn't you do a torrent style stream like blizzard did for their first blizzcon forays? Why might you need a custom pipe that handles insane amounts of info? Well, some fast math might help.
A 480i stream is roughly around 3Mbps. Or 0.375 Megabytes for those people who are looking at their harddrives going "@_@ what are these numbers and what are they doing?". Let's say we're doing a TSL. 60000 Viewers, all watching in ghetto vision where TvT is a blurry cavalcade of marines getting squelched and banshee rockets. This stream for twitch is generating 22500 megabytes of data all by itself. Yea it has to take the stream being transmitted in FUCKYEA quality, dumb it way the fuck down (encoding) via some tower of power like;
Where shit tier for video encoding for streams on the fly STARTS at 13,200. THEN, the encoder kicks out the signal to your backbone isp where it is distributed to your residential isp.
So, one stream for a middling tournament is generating a streaming demand of a 1080i rendering of Falling Skies season one. Per second. That is for the lowest tier of quality. Garbage tier, the tier that we complained about relentlessly to GoM when the first championship series released for the GSL.
Keep in mind that during this 60000 viewers bonanza, they have lol streaming, their entire justin.tv catalog also streaming, dota2 streaming. Right now as I write this post there are 75,000 viewers on twitch. 12000 on sc2 alone.
How much you want to wager that the majority of these viewers are in FUCKYEA encoding quality? If you want the full mackdaddy 1080i experience you are demanding bandwidth at anywhere between 15-20Mbps. We can go with an average of 17.5 Mbps or 2.18 Megabytes per second. You could totally go "Yea but I downloaded my favorite quadruple gangbang scene on my bittorrent client for that much!" and you'd be so full of shit you'd be a pinata. It doesn't matter what your speed is when you can actually handle that level of stream quality. It matters what the otherside can put out.
Because, a contract to a company like level3 gives you X access to their network. You go over your contracted bandwidth, denied. Auto shaped. Your quality which was once good, is now insanely fucking awful because level3 doesnt give a fuck about your data packet presentation as long as it gets there. The stream that was once FUCKYEA now looks like a mixture of static, snowglobe and Bob Ross's palette after painting a sweet waterfall.
Let's say out of curiosity that a full half of the TSL viewers aren't actually watching it in etchasketch mode. Instead they are watching it in FUCKYEA mode. They are dl'ing from their pipe to level3 at 17.5MBps. so... 30000. (The actual amount of people watching in perfect 1080 is not remotely close to this.) ASSUMING you've paid for the highest tier of service from level3 and have unadulterated access to their backbone, you're now punching out 525000MBps. 525 GB a second. You are asking a backbone and laterally a commercial isp to deliver a 500 GB hdd a second. Those go for 64 dollars.
So what do you do? Well if you saw this robust growth coming, you go to level3 and go "Yes, my second born is the agreed upon price" and get your bandwidth access bumped up. This level of bandwidth usage, just to touch on the whole point of this post is REALLY FUCKING EXPENSIVE. Or! You can implement shaping policy. Or encode quality based on bandwidth. Gotta pay someone that is really good at their job a really good amount of money to make sure that the correct quality of your stream is going to every single last person. Not a byte or bit more. If someone is rocking 2Mbps down, they're getting a low resolution 240 stream. Someone rocking 6Mbps down, high resolution, high FPS 480 for them. Another with a god tier 40Mbps down? The whole 9 yards for them, 1080i, 60 fps, 1920/1200.
Hrm, how the hell are you going to get all these different resolutions, frame rates and qualities? Fuck man the encoder is already merely processing this shit, your isp is going HOLYSHIT I guess we're gonna need to find a way to stabilize and normalize the delivery of the video signal.
Cisco sells load balancers that handle bandwidth of our level of needs NEW for 27k. This one is refurbed. If you wanna risk it. Go ahead.
Hardware alone you're looking at 50k min for a node/region. You have many nodes and regions. You have many backbone deals. You pay out for multiple regions to your ISP. (I think lvl3 allows you an international bandwidth package, not sure though) You pay out for staff.
You're hiring a lower tier of this job responsibility. You're also hiring encoders. UI specialists. Sales. An umpteen number of things that I can't even remember atm due to too much studying.
So. What about you? That's a really good fucking question Desrow. We as a community are getting an insanely stable, high quality, responsive and community minded video streaming service for a cost many of us would dare to call "free". The sheer amount of infrastructure, upkeep, bill pay and very stiff competition/demand for bandwidth (Netflix alone uses anywhere between 60-90% of the level3 network) makes a video streaming service a very expensive venture. I keep all my ads on and subscribe to multiple dudes just to feel better about using the service.
SO! I'd be pretty happy with the 50/50. God knows they could gouge a shit load more and still make tv/movie/music companies look like Hitler incarnadine.
Sorry about the poor editing and potentially incorrect statement about load balancers for delivering correct stream quality.
Experience: Assisted in launch of multiple metro ISP networks. Intern. Live with a senior network engineer/traffic shaping policy writer.
On February 05 2013 00:59 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: This should lead to a minor improvement in revenue for the regular channels (i.e. 99% of the player streams you watch). The channels will get paid for their ads ran to Turbo users as if the ad was actually seen. This means that if someone previous ad-blocked and now has Turbo, he will count as an ad to the regular channel.
It may be tough on subscriber channels losing some members who prefer to pay for Turbo instead. With polling done by Twitch they state that the majority of subscribers pay because they want to support the channels, and less so for the ad removal. Twitch will be able to monitor what this does to those channels, and hopefully come up with something for it if it turns out to be an issue. It would be kind of cool if you had 3 slots with $1 to give to a channel with subscribers on Twitch.
It needs to be mentioned that Twitch is massive compared to the subscriber channels, and that this is a really important move for their overall business model. It is not an evil business model at all, in fact if they had never offered channels the option to get subscribers (which they didn't need to) then everything would look entirely normal. Sometimes the right move can impact people negatively, but it is important to see things in the right perspective.
Although this isn't great for us (TSL+ had a no ads feature, plans with the player channels) I want to say that I support Twitch doing this. Before anything else; we should all want Twitch to have a healthy business model. There is no doubt this is the right choice for a company like Twitch, and hopefully that will find its way back to our scene in one way or another.
Twitch already takes 50% of the subs money. If they would take 20% I'd be okay with twitch turbo but for now they are undercutting heavily the broadcasters who at the end of the day provide the content for twitch to make money on. I agree it's good for the users and for them but what about us ?
From someone who has handled the infrastructure of high bandwidth applications and the consequences of high resolution streaming, you're getting 50% because streaming; to put it bluntly, is fucking expensive.
From Twitch's point of view, they have a big problem. Adblock - loud ads, ads that end up being intrusive or repetitive. What ever it may be, ads are blocked. Twitch turbo, which gives an impression every time an ad is played when the twitch turbo subscriber does NOT see the ad is a pretty good middle ground. This essentially "pays in advance" all the ads + a shit ton more that a normal viewer would not see. A power user of twitch might find this to be a pretty good deal. The streams they watch get supported, twitch gets more reliable income that they can use as credit, or bankable assets to invest in infrastructure instead of going from paycheque to paycheque THEN making the decision to do a hardware build out or an upgrade in bandwidth tier from a backbone provider.
You've seen Own3d go under because of statements of "what about us". They offered VERY competitive rates or bonuses to streamers in order to get them to broadcast under own3d. Even with a smaller hardware and broadband investment and a more focused approach to a singular market they were very much underwater. Do I have #'s or real examples of their overhead. No.
A big thing to remember is that a company that deals in very manly amounts of video and swarms of people watching streams (120k+ for big tourny days) all watching in 1080i-can't-count-how-many-pixels-there-are-on-the-screen resolution is a titanic strain on any given system.
We can use netflix as a general example of internet streaming usage:
^ This is your new best friend. You're now tunneling so much fucking bandwidth that you need a company that owns a backbone pipe across the nation. Well, that's a cool link and claim, what's the backup behind that? Couldn't you do a torrent style stream like blizzard did for their first blizzcon forays? Why might you need a custom pipe that handles insane amounts of info? Well, some fast math might help.
A 480i stream is roughly around 3Mbps. Or 0.375 Megabytes for those people who are looking at their harddrives going "@_@ what are these numbers and what are they doing?". Let's say we're doing a TSL. 60000 Viewers, all watching in ghetto vision where TvT is a blurry cavalcade of marines getting squelched and banshee rockets. This stream for twitch is generating 22500 megabytes of data all by itself. Yea it has to take the stream being transmitted in FUCKYEA quality, dumb it way the fuck down (encoding) via some tower of power like;
Where shit tier for video encoding for streams on the fly STARTS at 13,200. THEN, the encoder kicks out the signal to your backbone isp where it is distributed to your residential isp.
So, one stream for a middling tournament is generating a streaming demand of a 1080i rendering of Falling Skies season one. Per second. That is for the lowest tier of quality. Garbage tier, the tier that we complained about relentlessly to GoM when the first championship series released for the GSL.
Keep in mind that during this 60000 viewers bonanza, they have lol streaming, their entire justin.tv catalog also streaming, dota2 streaming. Right now as I write this post there are 75,000 viewers on twitch. 12000 on sc2 alone.
How much you want to wager that the majority of these viewers are in FUCKYEA encoding quality? If you want the full mackdaddy 1080i experience you are demanding bandwidth at anywhere between 15-20Mbps. We can go with an average of 17.5 Mbps or 2.18 Megabytes per second. You could totally go "Yea but I downloaded my favorite quadruple gangbang scene on my bittorrent client for that much!" and you'd be so full of shit you'd be a pinata. It doesn't matter what your speed is when you can actually handle that level of stream quality. It matters what the otherside can put out.
Because, a contract to a company like level3 gives you X access to their network. You go over your contracted bandwidth, denied. Auto shaped. Your quality which was once good, is now insanely fucking awful because level3 doesnt give a fuck about your data packet presentation as long as it gets there. The stream that was once FUCKYEA now looks like a mixture of static, snowglobe and Bob Ross's palette after painting a sweet waterfall.
Let's say out of curiosity that a full half of the TSL viewers aren't actually watching it in etchasketch mode. Instead they are watching it in FUCKYEA mode. They are dl'ing from their pipe to level3 at 17.5MBps. so... 30000. (The actual amount of people watching in perfect 1080 is not remotely close to this.) ASSUMING you've paid for the highest tier of service from level3 and have unadulterated access to their backbone, you're now punching out 525000MBps. 525 GB a second. You are asking a backbone and laterally a commercial isp to deliver a 500 GB hdd a second. Those go for 64 dollars.
So what do you do? Well if you saw this robust growth coming, you go to level3 and go "Yes, my second born is the agreed upon price" and get your bandwidth access bumped up. This level of bandwidth usage, just to touch on the whole point of this post is REALLY FUCKING EXPENSIVE. Or! You can implement shaping policy. Or encode quality based on bandwidth. Gotta pay someone that is really good at their job a really good amount of money to make sure that the correct quality of your stream is going to every single last person. Not a byte or bit more. If someone is rocking 2Mbps down, they're getting a low resolution 240 stream. Someone rocking 6Mbps down, high resolution, high FPS 480 for them. Another with a god tier 40Mbps down? The whole 9 yards for them, 1080i, 60 fps, 1920/1200.
Hrm, how the hell are you going to get all these different resolutions, frame rates and qualities? Fuck man the encoder is already merely processing this shit, your isp is going HOLYSHIT I guess we're gonna need to find a way to stabilize and normalize the delivery of the video signal.
Cisco sells load balancers that handle bandwidth of our level of needs NEW for 27k. This one is refurbed. If you wanna risk it. Go ahead.
Hardware alone you're looking at 50k min for a node/region. You have many nodes and regions. You have many backbone deals. You pay out for multiple regions to your ISP. (I think lvl3 allows you an international bandwidth package, not sure though) You pay out for staff.
You're hiring a lower tier of this job responsibility. You're also hiring encoders. UI specialists. Sales. An umpteen number of things that I can't even remember atm due to too much studying.
So. What about you? That's a really good fucking question Desrow. We as a community are getting an insanely stable, high quality, responsive and community minded video streaming service for a cost many of us would dare to call "free". The sheer amount of infrastructure, upkeep, bill pay and very stiff competition/demand for bandwidth (Netflix alone uses anywhere between 60-90% of the level3 network) makes a video streaming service a very expensive venture. I keep all my ads on and subscribe to multiple dudes just to feel better about using the service.
SO! I'd be pretty happy with the 50/50. God knows they could gouge a shit load more and still make tv/movie/music companies look like Hitler incarnadine.
Sorry about the poor editing and potentially incorrect statement about load balancers for delivering correct stream quality.
Experience: Assisted in launch of multiple metro ISP networks. Intern. Live with a senior network engineer/traffic shaping policy writer.
If there are any questions - PM me.
Very good write up, you should write blogs about streaming / technical blogs. Liking your style and all the information. Some people really have no clue about how much a running network, streaming and technology overall does have in running costs.
On February 05 2013 15:01 ArvickHero wrote: they should integrate a donation system like Afreeca's balloons/stickers, I would totally shoot balloons at my favorite streamers lol. It honestly adds a lot to the viewer/broadcaster dynamic and makes watching streams much more enjoyable lol
While i agree this is would be good idea, donating trough paypal works just as well. A lot of gamers on twitch are getting ridiculous sums of money this way.
How much does set of balloons cost in Afreeca and how big of a cut does Afreeca take from every purchase btw?
Hrmm I dont get this? So Streamer X is going to hit the ADs button, I won´t see ads witch twtich turbo, neither can i watch content, because the streamer usually won´t go on till ads have finished.
On February 05 2013 22:17 plgElwood wrote: Hrmm I dont get this? So Streamer X is going to hit the ADs button, I won´t see ads witch twtich turbo, neither can i watch content, because the streamer usually won´t go on till ads have finished.
It's not like the stream just stops. Yeah you run ads during breaks but rather than getting ads you get whatever music is playing or what not. The biggest thing is no more pre-roll ads too. Many times when you're just browsing streams it gets very tiring seeing an ad come up after the first 5 seconds before you figure out what's going on on that stream.
I generally adblocked because if I'm streaming a tournament myself and look at another stream to get updates of another match going on, obviously the ad playing would mess up the stream going from my end. Now I went turbo and I don't need to worry about costing anyone any money.
I think this was made for viewers like me... I havent found a reason where I wanted to step up and Subscribe.... but I use twitch.tv to watch so many streams but feel guilty when at times I have ad-block up (commercials are so damn annoying)... now I can have ad-block up without a problem and just get turbo ~
now maybe streamers will do commercials even more often?
personally, I think this is good for twitch bad for streamers.... I have been around this community and supported many players from the shadows rarely do i find a topic that i feel needs my 2 cents but this is actually retarded 8.99 for twitch and only thing the players recieve are the POSSIBILITY that someone who would have previously used ad block might have bought a turbo acct so they might recieve that 1 1 millionth of a penny that they werent recieving before...... desrow said before they already take 50% of his subscription.. i bet they have 0 plans on reducing the amount they take from personal subscribers.... when i subscribe to a stream its because i like the player and i wanna support the player, but lets be honest here the perks of getting no ads is pretty nice too? this will hurt the subscriptions for the players and theres no benefit for the players at all for you to purchase this service.... just fyi 9$ monthly for 0 ads is more than any of u guys give them in ad revenue in a month by probably triple.... I dont use ad block and never have, i like supporting esports in any way that i can and i feel like this is a big f you to the players from twitch considering this can only cause harm to players revenues and no real gain...
if they wanna do this i feel there should be more benefit to the players directly not just twitch's pockets the price is way more than they would make off any 1 person watching streams even if hes watching 5-6 hours a day... so to sum up the issues i see with it 1: no gain for streamers 2: asking for a price like 9$ per user who would probably watch about 3$ worth of ads per month.... 3: making a statement involving so highly how this will "still support" the players which is total crap if ur not using adblock in the first place this does absolutely 0 more for the players.... 4: if players are now gonna have to offer even more to there personal subscribers why is twitch not changing the amount they pocket from the personal subscriptions? could probably think of tons of more things i find WRONG with this picture.... this helps twitch and twitch only, I love twitch its my favorite streaming platform but when your selling lemons dont call it lemonade...
Right now I'm looking at this through the same lens that resulted in the creation of iTunes/Netflix/Hulu/Steam: convenience as a driver of consumer action.
As piracy escalated throughout the last 15 years and companies began to feel the profit crunch, there have been a few different tacks that companies have taken to try to respond. Some have been mainly preventative (DRM in general, Ubisoft, Diablo 3 come to mind), some have been punitive (MPAA/RIAA legal actions), and others have basically embraced those consuming their content for free and asked "why do people choose this over the legitimate method?" A meaningful percentage of the time, the answer has been convenience. Netflix, Hulu, Steam, and iTunes, among other companies, have been highly successful because they made it as convenient or nearly as convenient to pay for products as to get them for free. I think that's what Twitch is trying to do here.
Watching twitch without adblock, turbo, or a subscription to the channel you're viewing is a bit of a chore compared to the alternative. You get to see the stream, sure, but you have to be in the tab/window to mute or skip commercials. Commercials aren't normalized to the same volume as your stream audio or the rest of the audio on your PC, so even if you want to watch them to be a stream viewer with a good conscience, it can be a very jarring experience. Some commercials can't be muted without muting your entire PC (though this has become less common, in my experience). There's no bonus inherently attached to not using adblock--you have to subscribe to each channel that you want to skip ads on and you don't receive chat emoticons or text color or whatever as a result of forgoing adblock--so it's a very unattractive proposition. Remember that the alternative is watching everything uninterrupted forever thanks to one tiny browser plugin.
With Turbo, I think Twitch is trying to find a middle ground between having customers subscribe to every channel where they don't want to see ads and having a huge majority of users block all ads for free. It's a first effort (first in the entire industry, as far as I know) so it's bound to have issues and need tuning. Twitch has proven to be pretty communicative with its streamers and viewers about issues with its systems, so hopefully they're not 100% married to the exact current state of Turbo as their future and will be willing to make changes as needed. I'm cautiously optimistic overall.
(In the interest of full disclosure, I should mention that I'm a long-time adblock user and have blocked ads on twitch 100% of the time since long before it was called twitch. I am strongly considering subscribing to Turbo, just as I've subscribed to Netflix, bought music on bandcamp/amazonmp3/bleep/other sites, and come to prefer purchasing things on Steam over downloading them for free. I believe there are many like me that this Turbo idea will appeal to. But I'm also 29, married, and employed full-time. A large part of Twitch's market doesn't match up with that at all.)
On February 05 2013 23:50 theqat wrote: Right now I'm looking at this through the same lens that resulted in the creation of iTunes/Netflix/Hulu/Steam: convenience as a driver of consumer action.
As piracy escalated throughout the last 15 years and companies began to feel the profit crunch, there have been a few different tacks that companies have taken to try to respond. Some have been mainly preventative (DRM in general, Ubisoft, Diablo 3 come to mind), some have been punitive (MPAA/RIAA legal actions), and others have basically embraced those consuming their content for free and asked "why do people choose this over the legitimate method?" A meaningful percentage of the time, the answer has been convenience. Netflix, Hulu, Steam, and iTunes, among other companies, have been highly successful because they made it as convenient or nearly as convenient to pay for products as to get them for free. I think that's what Twitch is trying to do here.
Watching twitch without adblock, turbo, or a subscription to the channel you're viewing is a bit of a chore compared to the alternative. You get to see the stream, sure, but you have to be in the tab/window to mute or skip commercials. Commercials aren't normalized to the same volume as your stream audio or the rest of the audio on your PC, so even if you want to watch them to be a stream viewer with a good conscience, it can be a very jarring experience. Some commercials can't be muted without muting your entire PC (though this has become less common, in my experience). There's no bonus inherently attached to not using adblock--you have to subscribe to each channel that you want to skip ads on and you don't receive chat emoticons or text color or whatever as a result of forgoing adblock--so it's a very unattractive proposition. Remember that the alternative is watching everything uninterrupted forever thanks to one tiny browser plugin.
With Turbo, I think Twitch is trying to find a middle ground between having customers subscribe to every channel where they don't want to see ads and having a huge majority of users block all ads for free. It's a first effort (first in the entire industry, as far as I know) so it's bound to have issues and need tuning. Twitch has proven to be pretty communicative with its streamers and viewers about issues with its systems, so hopefully they're not 100% married to the exact current state of Turbo as their future and will be willing to make changes as needed. I'm cautiously optimistic overall.
(In the interest of full disclosure, I should mention that I'm a long-time adblock user and have blocked ads on twitch 100% of the time since long before it was called twitch. I am strongly considering subscribing to Turbo, just as I've subscribed to Netflix, bought music on bandcamp/amazonmp3/bleep/other sites, and come to prefer purchasing things on Steam over downloading them for free. I believe there are many like me that this Turbo idea will appeal to. But I'm also 29, married, and employed full-time. A large part of Twitch's market doesn't match up with that at all.)
im 24 married work full time and could pay this 9$ a month easilly but i wont simply because no one here can honestly say this wil ldo more good for the players than it will do harm
Didn't you just say that "making a statement involving so highly how this will "still support" the players which is total crap if ur not using adblock in the first place this does absolutely 0 more for the players...."
I'm using adblock and will be in any circumstance without turbo so, by your own definition, wouldn't it support the players I view without a subscription? Would that not be doing them more good than me continuing to view their streams without a subscription and with adblock?
Twitch provides good infrastructure and working streams. Also it is the last of it´s kind. If it was down..yeah that would suck I am okay with ads, but i dont want them to be loud as hell, and also i dont like them playing everytime a stream (re-)opens. So I watch tournaments mostly with adblock+ . I guess they could change their Ads to "streamer activated only , but at least 5 per hour".
On February 05 2013 10:42 banzaiib wrote: I use adblock, and I'm not sure why the vast majority of people don't. I'm not saying anyone should or should not use it, I'm just saying I fricking love it. yeah yeah... you can say, "well if everyone did that, there would be nothing to watch," but that isn't true. Twitch and youtube would just figure out a way around it. Bottom line is, adblock is not seriously enough affecting "impressions" to warrant doing anything about it directly... unless I'm completely wrong and twitch has yet to implement a solution, but I see this "subscription move" on twitch's part as evidence against that. They're simply making bank on the vast majority of peoples' ignorance of adblock and how to use it. I watched ads during the superbowl, because I couldn't block them, but 1/2 the time, i just muted the TV (they were pretty bad... I mean, how the hell was there a pistacio harvesting commercial during the damned superbowl... but I digress). Are you saying I shouldn't mute my TV? Same logic as saying I shouldn't use adblock. <shrug>
<3
You are wrong.
Adblock is cutting ad revenue for the sites/streamers by way more then 50%.
Cutting into it short term yes, long term no, making people watch ads just to support streamers when they have no intention of buying the products in the first place does nothing other than lower the CPM rate for the ad because the company isnt getting the return they expect.
Example, company gets 1000 impressions, they expect $20 in sales from it, so the CPM will be $10
Lets say people stopped using adblock, and just watched to support, say its 20% of people do this. that turns this 1000 impressions into 800 because 200 are completely pointless and will never buy the product. This means that the company doesn't see a $20 sale, they see $16 so the next time they buy addspace they will lower the CPM to accomodate for the reduction in sales.
This was a rough off the top of my head but you should get the point. In the long run let adblock people adblock but just tell them to piss off if they EVER ask for anything from the streamer or organisation running the stream because they are useless to them.
Uhh, advertising doesn't work like that. It is a very nebulous investment for a company to make, and basically impossible for the company to determine whether the advertisement is paying off or not. Sure, there are some ads that have referral ID's when you click them to help the company track it, but the majority of Twitch ads are for things like cars, deodorant, McDonald's...there is no way for them to pinpoint their sales as accurately as you are describing.
Furthermore, just because someone uses adblock doesn't mean they wouldn't buy the products if they could see commercials for them. Adblock users are consumers too. If anything, the fact that so many people use adblock would discourage a company from investing as heavily in internet marketing.
On February 06 2013 00:17 theqat wrote: Didn't you just say that "making a statement involving so highly how this will "still support" the players which is total crap if ur not using adblock in the first place this does absolutely 0 more for the players...."
I'm using adblock and will be in any circumstance without turbo so, by your own definition, wouldn't it support the players I view without a subscription? Would that not be doing them more good than me continuing to view their streams without a subscription and with adblock?
because your probably the minority your viewing 1 add does not make up for the subscriber amounts that will most likely be lost because of this the people using adblock the MAJORITY by common sense will just keep using adblock for free rather than pay 9$ a month..... so i would assume the people using adblock that will somehow have a change of heart and decide rather to pay 9$ a month are in my eyes going to be very few people...
On February 06 2013 00:17 theqat wrote: Didn't you just say that "making a statement involving so highly how this will "still support" the players which is total crap if ur not using adblock in the first place this does absolutely 0 more for the players...."
I'm using adblock and will be in any circumstance without turbo so, by your own definition, wouldn't it support the players I view without a subscription? Would that not be doing them more good than me continuing to view their streams without a subscription and with adblock?
which is more beneficial to a personal stream 100 people per month casually watching there stream without adblock or 2 subscribers? answer that question and it just kills the whole arguement people are making for why this is okay...
and believe me 100 is being VERY generous to how many people would buy this and watch a stream that were using adblock before...
On February 06 2013 00:17 theqat wrote: Didn't you just say that "making a statement involving so highly how this will "still support" the players which is total crap if ur not using adblock in the first place this does absolutely 0 more for the players...."
I'm using adblock and will be in any circumstance without turbo so, by your own definition, wouldn't it support the players I view without a subscription? Would that not be doing them more good than me continuing to view their streams without a subscription and with adblock?
because your probably the minority your viewing 1 add does not make up for the subscriber amounts that will most likely be lost because of this the people using adblock the MAJORITY by common sense will just keep using adblock for free rather than pay 9$ a month..... so i would assume the people using adblock that will somehow have a change of heart and decide rather to pay 9$ a month are in my eyes going to be very few people...
By your reasoning, no one is subscribing to any players because they could just be using adblock instead. If you do the numbers, what you're saying just doesn't nearly add up. It's really hard to imagine there being a large number of people subscribing only to block ads to begin with. They're offering a solution that attempts to compete with adblock and still gets revenue to the streamers.
i propose TL do a poll and see just how many people are using adblock and how many are using adblock consistantly that are now going to subscribe to twitch turbo rather than just continue using adblock
On February 05 2013 21:25 Thurokiir wrote: Let's say out of curiosity that a full half of the TSL viewers aren't actually watching it in etchasketch mode. Instead they are watching it in FUCKYEA mode. They are dl'ing from their pipe to level3 at 17.5MBps. so... 30000. (The actual amount of people watching in perfect 1080 is not remotely close to this.) ASSUMING you've paid for the highest tier of service from level3 and have unadulterated access to their backbone, you're now punching out 525000MBps. 525 GB a second. You are asking a backbone and laterally a commercial isp to deliver a 500 GB hdd a second. Those go for 64 dollars.
People really need to start using the wonderful service called multicast and anycast, IPTV has been using that for a long time already. There is no excuse to send 500 GB HDD every second when it's not necessary. At least make deals with major ISPs that they have distribution nodes in their datacenters, so you don't have to push it from just few Twitch servers across several countries. Waste of bandwidth and money.
On February 06 2013 00:17 theqat wrote: Didn't you just say that "making a statement involving so highly how this will "still support" the players which is total crap if ur not using adblock in the first place this does absolutely 0 more for the players...."
I'm using adblock and will be in any circumstance without turbo so, by your own definition, wouldn't it support the players I view without a subscription? Would that not be doing them more good than me continuing to view their streams without a subscription and with adblock?
because your probably the minority your viewing 1 add does not make up for the subscriber amounts that will most likely be lost because of this the people using adblock the MAJORITY by common sense will just keep using adblock for free rather than pay 9$ a month..... so i would assume the people using adblock that will somehow have a change of heart and decide rather to pay 9$ a month are in my eyes going to be very few people...
I think more people than you realize understand that twitch needs money to continue operating. Plenty of adblock + twitch users love twitch as much as the next person and would hate to see it go. Plenty of those people are no doubt happy to see a way to support twitch without having to view inconvenient, obnoxious ads.
Neither of us know any figures from twitch that would suss out this issue, anyway. There's not much point in discussing it with my "I think" and your "your [sic] probably the minority."
On February 06 2013 01:03 LiMEX17 wrote: i propose TL do a poll and see just how many people are using adblock and how many are using adblock consistantly that are now going to subscribe to twitch turbo rather than just continue using adblock
I adblocked and subscribed to turbo, there's a good number of people posting they did the same. I only saw one guy post that he'd just unsubscribe others and go turbo and really, he was obviously never in it to support anyone so I have no clue why he wasn't using adblock rather than subscribing in the first place heh.
On February 06 2013 00:17 theqat wrote: Didn't you just say that "making a statement involving so highly how this will "still support" the players which is total crap if ur not using adblock in the first place this does absolutely 0 more for the players...."
I'm using adblock and will be in any circumstance without turbo so, by your own definition, wouldn't it support the players I view without a subscription? Would that not be doing them more good than me continuing to view their streams without a subscription and with adblock?
because your probably the minority your viewing 1 add does not make up for the subscriber amounts that will most likely be lost because of this the people using adblock the MAJORITY by common sense will just keep using adblock for free rather than pay 9$ a month..... so i would assume the people using adblock that will somehow have a change of heart and decide rather to pay 9$ a month are in my eyes going to be very few people...
By your reasoning, no one is subscribing to any players because they could just be using adblock instead. If you do the numbers, what you're saying just doesn't nearly add up. It's really hard to imagine there being a large number of people subscribing only to block ads to begin with. They're offering a solution that attempts to compete with adblock and still gets revenue to the streamers.
for one i never once said that people are subscribing to block ads majority of them do it just to help the streamer.... but any subscriber players lose over this is a big deal because the players arent benefitting from this pretty much @ all.... in comparison to a 5$ subscriber per month.... do the math how many adblock users that suddenly decided to no longer use adblock and use this service instead would any player need to make up for even 1 lost subscription? even if the majority of people are subscribing to streams for other reasons than no ads im positive that "SOME" of the subscribers are mostly doing it to be ad free...
Starting today around 9:00am PST, you can sign up for Twitch Turbo by visiting http://www.twitch.tv/products/turbo, and please feel free to share your thoughts below.
All i hope is that Twitch won't turn for the same as Justin.tv. If you aren't subscriber, you won't be able to watch a certain stream sometimes because of the limit where X amount of people are able to watch the stream from your country, or whatever it is. But i doubt that will happen.
Well I know a lot of us would stop watching watching random players play games because honestly why would you pay to watch demslim ladder. I get paying for a MLG arena or something ( I did that), but I don't really like the idea of subscribering to watch video game content.
On February 06 2013 00:17 theqat wrote: Didn't you just say that "making a statement involving so highly how this will "still support" the players which is total crap if ur not using adblock in the first place this does absolutely 0 more for the players...."
I'm using adblock and will be in any circumstance without turbo so, by your own definition, wouldn't it support the players I view without a subscription? Would that not be doing them more good than me continuing to view their streams without a subscription and with adblock?
because your probably the minority your viewing 1 add does not make up for the subscriber amounts that will most likely be lost because of this the people using adblock the MAJORITY by common sense will just keep using adblock for free rather than pay 9$ a month..... so i would assume the people using adblock that will somehow have a change of heart and decide rather to pay 9$ a month are in my eyes going to be very few people...
I think more people than you realize understand that twitch needs money to continue operating. Plenty of adblock + twitch users love twitch as much as the next person and would hate to see it go. Plenty of those people are no doubt happy to see a way to support twitch without having to view inconvenient, obnoxious ads.
Neither of us know any figures from twitch that would suss out this issue, anyway. There's not much point in discussing it with my "I think" and your "your [sic] probably the minority."
you guys are getting off topic, my arguement is about does this hurt the players or dosnt it...... and in my eyes this is worse for the players.... now your telling me twitch needs money to operate after stating that neither of us know any figures..... twitch as far as i can see has grown exponentially in the last couple of years and continues to gain more and more viewers and now has a monopoly on the video game streaming world for the next couple of months.... to suggest twitch is broke or in the path of becoming broke seems a little naive in my eyes...
On February 05 2013 00:09 Grettin wrote: Here is the announcement
Ad-free Twitch: No pre-rolls, no mid-rolls, no companions, no display ads, and broadcasters still get paid. All you see are front-page takeovers.
Starting today around 9:00am PST, you can sign up for Twitch Turbo by visiting http://www.twitch.tv/products/turbo, and please feel free to share your thoughts below.
All i hope is that Twitch won't turn for the same as Justin.tv. If you aren't subscriber, you won't be able to watch a certain stream sometimes because of the limit where X amount of people are able to watch the stream from your country, or whatever it is. But i doubt that will happen.
Well I know a lot of us would stop watching watching random players play games because honestly why would you pay to watch demslim ladder. I get paying for a MLG arena or something ( I did that), but I don't really like the idea of subscribering to watch video game content.
what happens @ mlgs now that are using twitch? or any tournaments..... i bet u still gotta pay that 20 bucks to be ad free there now dont u
On February 06 2013 00:17 theqat wrote: Didn't you just say that "making a statement involving so highly how this will "still support" the players which is total crap if ur not using adblock in the first place this does absolutely 0 more for the players...."
I'm using adblock and will be in any circumstance without turbo so, by your own definition, wouldn't it support the players I view without a subscription? Would that not be doing them more good than me continuing to view their streams without a subscription and with adblock?
because your probably the minority your viewing 1 add does not make up for the subscriber amounts that will most likely be lost because of this the people using adblock the MAJORITY by common sense will just keep using adblock for free rather than pay 9$ a month..... so i would assume the people using adblock that will somehow have a change of heart and decide rather to pay 9$ a month are in my eyes going to be very few people...
I think more people than you realize understand that twitch needs money to continue operating. Plenty of adblock + twitch users love twitch as much as the next person and would hate to see it go. Plenty of those people are no doubt happy to see a way to support twitch without having to view inconvenient, obnoxious ads.
Neither of us know any figures from twitch that would suss out this issue, anyway. There's not much point in discussing it with my "I think" and your "your [sic] probably the minority."
you guys are getting off topic, my arguement is about does this hurt the players or dosnt it...... and in my eyes this is worse for the players.... now your telling me twitch needs money to operate after stating that neither of us know any figures..... twitch as far as i can see has grown exponentially in the last couple of years and continues to gain more and more viewers and now has a monopoly on the video game streaming world for the next couple of months.... to suggest twitch is broke or in the path of becoming broke seems a little naive in my eyes...
You started this by responding to my post on the previous page that is about my views on why twitch made this move and why it might be a good thing overall--nothing to do with the players--so you don't get to tell me that I'm off-topic. In any case you just got finished saying that you thought "very few people" would have a "change of heart and decide rather to pay 9$ a month" and I explained to you why I thought it might be more than very few people. So it's at least partly your derail.
It's far from clear that twitch is swimming in cash and the number of viewers they pull in when there isn't something huge going on pales in comparison to even very weak television shows. Do I know that they're in cash trouble? No, but I can reasonably expect that things aren't easy for them, especially since a competitor with a very similar model just went out of business.
Do you think you could try writing your posts in a normal way? They are very difficult to read.
On February 05 2013 00:09 Grettin wrote: Here is the announcement
Ad-free Twitch: No pre-rolls, no mid-rolls, no companions, no display ads, and broadcasters still get paid. All you see are front-page takeovers.
Starting today around 9:00am PST, you can sign up for Twitch Turbo by visiting http://www.twitch.tv/products/turbo, and please feel free to share your thoughts below.
All i hope is that Twitch won't turn for the same as Justin.tv. If you aren't subscriber, you won't be able to watch a certain stream sometimes because of the limit where X amount of people are able to watch the stream from your country, or whatever it is. But i doubt that will happen.
Well I know a lot of us would stop watching watching random players play games because honestly why would you pay to watch demslim ladder. I get paying for a MLG arena or something ( I did that), but I don't really like the idea of subscribering to watch video game content.
what happens @ mlgs now that are using twitch? or any tournaments..... i bet u still gotta pay that 20 bucks to be ad free there now dont u
I think most people are probably subscribing to tournaments for higher quality stream rather than the ad free stream. So I imagine Turbo will still apply and will give you the ad free stream and tournaments will still charge to give out the higher quality options. (Not all tournaments)
On February 05 2013 10:42 banzaiib wrote: I use adblock, and I'm not sure why the vast majority of people don't. I'm not saying anyone should or should not use it, I'm just saying I fricking love it. yeah yeah... you can say, "well if everyone did that, there would be nothing to watch," but that isn't true. Twitch and youtube would just figure out a way around it. Bottom line is, adblock is not seriously enough affecting "impressions" to warrant doing anything about it directly... unless I'm completely wrong and twitch has yet to implement a solution, but I see this "subscription move" on twitch's part as evidence against that. They're simply making bank on the vast majority of peoples' ignorance of adblock and how to use it. I watched ads during the superbowl, because I couldn't block them, but 1/2 the time, i just muted the TV (they were pretty bad... I mean, how the hell was there a pistacio harvesting commercial during the damned superbowl... but I digress). Are you saying I shouldn't mute my TV? Same logic as saying I shouldn't use adblock. <shrug>
<3
You are wrong.
Adblock is cutting ad revenue for the sites/streamers by way more then 50%.
Cutting into it short term yes, long term no, making people watch ads just to support streamers when they have no intention of buying the products in the first place does nothing other than lower the CPM rate for the ad because the company isnt getting the return they expect.
Example, company gets 1000 impressions, they expect $20 in sales from it, so the CPM will be $10
Lets say people stopped using adblock, and just watched to support, say its 20% of people do this. that turns this 1000 impressions into 800 because 200 are completely pointless and will never buy the product. This means that the company doesn't see a $20 sale, they see $16 so the next time they buy addspace they will lower the CPM to accomodate for the reduction in sales.
This was a rough off the top of my head but you should get the point. In the long run let adblock people adblock but just tell them to piss off if they EVER ask for anything from the streamer or organisation running the stream because they are useless to them.
Uhh, advertising doesn't work like that. It is a very nebulous investment for a company to make, and basically impossible for the company to determine whether the advertisement is paying off or not. Sure, there are some ads that have referral ID's when you click them to help the company track it, but the majority of Twitch ads are for things like cars, deodorant, McDonald's...there is no way for them to pinpoint their sales as accurately as you are describing.
You'd be astonished. Cue 'conversion pixel'.
Of course things like McDonalds are about raising awareness, not for generating clicks.
And about ecpm: A lot of ad inventory is being auctioned off in real-time auctions nowadays, with some bids being extremely high. I'm talking 100 dollars CPM high.
On February 05 2013 00:02 yorkey wrote: I've recently read that twitch have announced a turbo feature to their site, which is a premium service in which you pay $8.99 a month to not see adverts on their site.
Now i'm based in the UK and i don't see this when i access twitch so is it just a US thing currently? So firstly i'm wondering if this is actually a thing or if it's just very new.
I like the idea of this service but what i'm wondering is who does this money go to? I never block adverts on streams as i know it brings in some money to the streamer and i like to support them as much as possible. So my worry is, if I was to buy this service do the streamers lose out on money from adverts i could be watching?
Why pay them 8.99 per month when you can just use adblock? It's free.
Strong this^^
People are just going to use ad block, and the people that are subbed to individual channels will just pay the extra 2 dollars and get turbo. This is REALLY terrible for people who run sub based streams. I think this is really fucking a lot of streamers over, but in the end this is obviously not a very financially stable way of making money. So if you were relying on this for cash I think its best to further your education or job prospects.
The problem with subscribing to individual channels is you always get this situation where it's like "Hey guys! I will be streaming every day now that I got my new computer! Please subscribe!" and then they disappear for the rest of the month. Someone like Violet. People can get burned that way and may sour on the whole idea of subbing to individual gamers.
On February 06 2013 00:17 theqat wrote: Didn't you just say that "making a statement involving so highly how this will "still support" the players which is total crap if ur not using adblock in the first place this does absolutely 0 more for the players...."
I'm using adblock and will be in any circumstance without turbo so, by your own definition, wouldn't it support the players I view without a subscription? Would that not be doing them more good than me continuing to view their streams without a subscription and with adblock?
because your probably the minority your viewing 1 add does not make up for the subscriber amounts that will most likely be lost because of this the people using adblock the MAJORITY by common sense will just keep using adblock for free rather than pay 9$ a month..... so i would assume the people using adblock that will somehow have a change of heart and decide rather to pay 9$ a month are in my eyes going to be very few people...
I think more people than you realize understand that twitch needs money to continue operating. Plenty of adblock + twitch users love twitch as much as the next person and would hate to see it go. Plenty of those people are no doubt happy to see a way to support twitch without having to view inconvenient, obnoxious ads.
Neither of us know any figures from twitch that would suss out this issue, anyway. There's not much point in discussing it with my "I think" and your "your [sic] probably the minority."
you guys are getting off topic, my arguement is about does this hurt the players or dosnt it...... and in my eyes this is worse for the players.... now your telling me twitch needs money to operate after stating that neither of us know any figures..... twitch as far as i can see has grown exponentially in the last couple of years and continues to gain more and more viewers and now has a monopoly on the video game streaming world for the next couple of months.... to suggest twitch is broke or in the path of becoming broke seems a little naive in my eyes...
You started this by responding to my post on the previous page that is about my views on why twitch made this move and why it might be a good thing overall--nothing to do with the players--so you don't get to tell me that I'm off-topic. In any case you just got finished saying that you thought "very few people" would have a "change of heart and decide rather to pay 9$ a month" and I explained to you why I thought it might be more than very few people. So it's at least partly your derail.
It's far from clear that twitch is swimming in cash and the number of viewers they pull in when there isn't something huge going on pales in comparison to even very weak television shows. Do I know that they're in cash trouble? No, but I can reasonably expect that things aren't easy for them, especially since a competitor with a very similar model just went out of business.
Do you think you could try writing your posts in a normal way? They are very difficult to read.
"a good thing overall nothing to do with the players" anything involved with a video game stream has EVERYTHING to do with the players.... and your comparing twitch to own3d when own3d was clearly making promises they couldn't keep we read the media friendly version of what happend at own3d..... who knows what really happend wasnt it stated this was mostly a management problem??? easy to pawn all of your fuck ups onto oh its a hard business to run and it costs a lot...... without the players u dont have a business so doing things like this that could potentially HURT there revenue prolly will not "be a good thing overall"
On February 06 2013 00:17 theqat wrote: Didn't you just say that "making a statement involving so highly how this will "still support" the players which is total crap if ur not using adblock in the first place this does absolutely 0 more for the players...."
I'm using adblock and will be in any circumstance without turbo so, by your own definition, wouldn't it support the players I view without a subscription? Would that not be doing them more good than me continuing to view their streams without a subscription and with adblock?
because your probably the minority your viewing 1 add does not make up for the subscriber amounts that will most likely be lost because of this the people using adblock the MAJORITY by common sense will just keep using adblock for free rather than pay 9$ a month..... so i would assume the people using adblock that will somehow have a change of heart and decide rather to pay 9$ a month are in my eyes going to be very few people...
I think more people than you realize understand that twitch needs money to continue operating. Plenty of adblock + twitch users love twitch as much as the next person and would hate to see it go. Plenty of those people are no doubt happy to see a way to support twitch without having to view inconvenient, obnoxious ads.
Neither of us know any figures from twitch that would suss out this issue, anyway. There's not much point in discussing it with my "I think" and your "your [sic] probably the minority."
you guys are getting off topic, my arguement is about does this hurt the players or dosnt it...... and in my eyes this is worse for the players.... now your telling me twitch needs money to operate after stating that neither of us know any figures..... twitch as far as i can see has grown exponentially in the last couple of years and continues to gain more and more viewers and now has a monopoly on the video game streaming world for the next couple of months.... to suggest twitch is broke or in the path of becoming broke seems a little naive in my eyes...
You started this by responding to my post on the previous page that is about my views on why twitch made this move and why it might be a good thing overall--nothing to do with the players--so you don't get to tell me that I'm off-topic. In any case you just got finished saying that you thought "very few people" would have a "change of heart and decide rather to pay 9$ a month" and I explained to you why I thought it might be more than very few people. So it's at least partly your derail.
It's far from clear that twitch is swimming in cash and the number of viewers they pull in when there isn't something huge going on pales in comparison to even very weak television shows. Do I know that they're in cash trouble? No, but I can reasonably expect that things aren't easy for them, especially since a competitor with a very similar model just went out of business.
Do you think you could try writing your posts in a normal way? They are very difficult to read.
"a good thing overall nothing to do with the players" anything involved with a video game stream has EVERYTHING to do with the players.... and your comparing twitch to own3d when own3d was clearly making promises they couldn't keep we read the media friendly version of what happend at own3d..... who knows what really happend wasnt it stated this was mostly a management problem??? easy to pawn all of your fuck ups onto oh its a hard business to run and it costs a lot...... without the players u dont have a business so doing things like this that could potentially HURT there revenue prolly will not "be a good thing overall"
There are plenty of streams that have very little to do with the players--primarily ones brought to twitch by large organizations. I don't think 100k+ viewer LOL tournaments, 20k+ viewer SC2 tournaments, and all the rest of twitch's cash cows have much need for subscription fees. They are driven by cash from their sponsors, backers, and advertisers that get screen time during the actual games and on the broadcaster booth. Many of them don't even offer subscriptions through twitch. The percentage of channels that can't live without $5/mo from their viewers is quite tiny from what I can tell. It wasn't so long ago that twitch subscriptions didn't exist and everyone seemed to get along fine.
You're kind of getting all over the place here. I keep trying to address your points but I'm seeing a lot of goalpost-moving. Do you have a core point? I mean I know you said "no one can honestly say this is good for the streamers" but I'm not sure how you can claim to know that and how you can ignore twitch's well-being. I don't think it's possible to say categorically whether this is good or bad for the streamers yet. It looks like it will be good for low-viewercount streamers who didn't offer subscriptions (a huge percentage of the streaming population) and bad for high-viewercount streamers who did (a tiny percentage of the streaming population), so at worst it's a gray area. If you're only interested in discussing whether it's good for the streamers then I'm done with the discussion. Events must be discussed in their full context to be understood and that involves a lot more than just being shrill about "IS IT GOOD FOR THE STREAMERS" whether you like it or not.
On February 06 2013 00:17 theqat wrote: Didn't you just say that "making a statement involving so highly how this will "still support" the players which is total crap if ur not using adblock in the first place this does absolutely 0 more for the players...."
I'm using adblock and will be in any circumstance without turbo so, by your own definition, wouldn't it support the players I view without a subscription? Would that not be doing them more good than me continuing to view their streams without a subscription and with adblock?
because your probably the minority your viewing 1 add does not make up for the subscriber amounts that will most likely be lost because of this the people using adblock the MAJORITY by common sense will just keep using adblock for free rather than pay 9$ a month..... so i would assume the people using adblock that will somehow have a change of heart and decide rather to pay 9$ a month are in my eyes going to be very few people...
I think more people than you realize understand that twitch needs money to continue operating. Plenty of adblock + twitch users love twitch as much as the next person and would hate to see it go. Plenty of those people are no doubt happy to see a way to support twitch without having to view inconvenient, obnoxious ads.
Neither of us know any figures from twitch that would suss out this issue, anyway. There's not much point in discussing it with my "I think" and your "your [sic] probably the minority."
you guys are getting off topic, my arguement is about does this hurt the players or dosnt it...... and in my eyes this is worse for the players.... now your telling me twitch needs money to operate after stating that neither of us know any figures..... twitch as far as i can see has grown exponentially in the last couple of years and continues to gain more and more viewers and now has a monopoly on the video game streaming world for the next couple of months.... to suggest twitch is broke or in the path of becoming broke seems a little naive in my eyes...
You started this by responding to my post on the previous page that is about my views on why twitch made this move and why it might be a good thing overall--nothing to do with the players--so you don't get to tell me that I'm off-topic. In any case you just got finished saying that you thought "very few people" would have a "change of heart and decide rather to pay 9$ a month" and I explained to you why I thought it might be more than very few people. So it's at least partly your derail.
It's far from clear that twitch is swimming in cash and the number of viewers they pull in when there isn't something huge going on pales in comparison to even very weak television shows. Do I know that they're in cash trouble? No, but I can reasonably expect that things aren't easy for them, especially since a competitor with a very similar model just went out of business.
Do you think you could try writing your posts in a normal way? They are very difficult to read.
"a good thing overall nothing to do with the players" anything involved with a video game stream has EVERYTHING to do with the players.... and your comparing twitch to own3d when own3d was clearly making promises they couldn't keep we read the media friendly version of what happend at own3d..... who knows what really happend wasnt it stated this was mostly a management problem??? easy to pawn all of your fuck ups onto oh its a hard business to run and it costs a lot...... without the players u dont have a business so doing things like this that could potentially HURT there revenue prolly will not "be a good thing overall"
There are plenty of streams that have very little to do with the players--primarily ones brought to twitch by large organizations. I don't think 100k+ viewer LOL tournaments, 20k+ viewer SC2 tournaments, and all the rest of twitch's cash cows have much need for subscription fees. They are driven by cash from their sponsors and backers. Many of them don't even offer subscriptions through twitch. The percentage of channels that can't live without $5/mo from their viewers is quite tiny from what I can tell. It wasn't so long ago that twitch subscriptions didn't exist and everyone seemed to get along fine.
You're kind of getting all over the place here. I keep trying to address your points but I'm seeing a lot of goalpost-moving. Do you have a core point? I mean I know you said "no one can honestly say this is good for the streamers" but I'm not sure how you can claim to know that and how you can ignore twitch's well-being. I don't think it's possible to say categorically whether this is good or bad for the streamers yet. It looks like it will be good for low-viewercount streamers who didn't offer subscriptions (a huge percentage of the streaming population) and bad for high-viewercount streamers who did (a tiny percentage of the streaming population), so at worst it's a gray area. If you're only interested in discussing whether it's good for the streamers then I'm done with the discussion. Events must be discussed in their full context to be understood and that involves a lot more than just being shrill about "IS IT GOOD FOR THE STREAMERS" whether you like it or not.
my core point is this, the main streamers the popular ones the ones we all love to watch, the ones that are semi reliant on subscribers..... are the ones that are gonna get hurt you know the "tiny percentage".... they are the ones that are gonna lose subscribers over this... the "huge percentage" are the ones that are just streaming to be known..... the ones not reliant on streaming as a revenue whatsoever... the ones where it dosnt effect them is because they arent doing this as a job in the first place?....
I only use adblock for twitch because I don't watch a lot of streams. I don't want to spend a lot of my time watching ads moreso than the stream itself.
On February 06 2013 00:17 theqat wrote: Didn't you just say that "making a statement involving so highly how this will "still support" the players which is total crap if ur not using adblock in the first place this does absolutely 0 more for the players...."
I'm using adblock and will be in any circumstance without turbo so, by your own definition, wouldn't it support the players I view without a subscription? Would that not be doing them more good than me continuing to view their streams without a subscription and with adblock?
because your probably the minority your viewing 1 add does not make up for the subscriber amounts that will most likely be lost because of this the people using adblock the MAJORITY by common sense will just keep using adblock for free rather than pay 9$ a month..... so i would assume the people using adblock that will somehow have a change of heart and decide rather to pay 9$ a month are in my eyes going to be very few people...
I think more people than you realize understand that twitch needs money to continue operating. Plenty of adblock + twitch users love twitch as much as the next person and would hate to see it go. Plenty of those people are no doubt happy to see a way to support twitch without having to view inconvenient, obnoxious ads.
Neither of us know any figures from twitch that would suss out this issue, anyway. There's not much point in discussing it with my "I think" and your "your [sic] probably the minority."
you guys are getting off topic, my arguement is about does this hurt the players or dosnt it...... and in my eyes this is worse for the players.... now your telling me twitch needs money to operate after stating that neither of us know any figures..... twitch as far as i can see has grown exponentially in the last couple of years and continues to gain more and more viewers and now has a monopoly on the video game streaming world for the next couple of months.... to suggest twitch is broke or in the path of becoming broke seems a little naive in my eyes...
You started this by responding to my post on the previous page that is about my views on why twitch made this move and why it might be a good thing overall--nothing to do with the players--so you don't get to tell me that I'm off-topic. In any case you just got finished saying that you thought "very few people" would have a "change of heart and decide rather to pay 9$ a month" and I explained to you why I thought it might be more than very few people. So it's at least partly your derail.
It's far from clear that twitch is swimming in cash and the number of viewers they pull in when there isn't something huge going on pales in comparison to even very weak television shows. Do I know that they're in cash trouble? No, but I can reasonably expect that things aren't easy for them, especially since a competitor with a very similar model just went out of business.
Do you think you could try writing your posts in a normal way? They are very difficult to read.
"a good thing overall nothing to do with the players" anything involved with a video game stream has EVERYTHING to do with the players.... and your comparing twitch to own3d when own3d was clearly making promises they couldn't keep we read the media friendly version of what happend at own3d..... who knows what really happend wasnt it stated this was mostly a management problem??? easy to pawn all of your fuck ups onto oh its a hard business to run and it costs a lot...... without the players u dont have a business so doing things like this that could potentially HURT there revenue prolly will not "be a good thing overall"
There are plenty of streams that have very little to do with the players--primarily ones brought to twitch by large organizations. I don't think 100k+ viewer LOL tournaments, 20k+ viewer SC2 tournaments, and all the rest of twitch's cash cows have much need for subscription fees. They are driven by cash from their sponsors, backers, and advertisers that get screen time during the actual games and on the broadcaster booth. Many of them don't even offer subscriptions through twitch. The percentage of channels that can't live without $5/mo from their viewers is quite tiny from what I can tell. It wasn't so long ago that twitch subscriptions didn't exist and everyone seemed to get along fine.
You're kind of getting all over the place here. I keep trying to address your points but I'm seeing a lot of goalpost-moving. Do you have a core point? I mean I know you said "no one can honestly say this is good for the streamers" but I'm not sure how you can claim to know that and how you can ignore twitch's well-being. I don't think it's possible to say categorically whether this is good or bad for the streamers yet. It looks like it will be good for low-viewercount streamers who didn't offer subscriptions (a huge percentage of the streaming population) and bad for high-viewercount streamers who did (a tiny percentage of the streaming population), so at worst it's a gray area. If you're only interested in discussing whether it's good for the streamers then I'm done with the discussion. Events must be discussed in their full context to be understood and that involves a lot more than just being shrill about "IS IT GOOD FOR THE STREAMERS" whether you like it or not.
anyways lets just see what happens if you wanna support it support it... i find it as a greedy move with the potential of hurting players Its nice for twitch to give the option of not having ads but for 9$ a month its a rip off in my eyes especially considering there is a "free alternative". using adblock is pointless and having this is pointless players dont do anything while ads are on and neither do shows or tournaments..... so not having the first ad is fine but the rest of it dosnt even matter theres no content to be watched during them regardless
It would be extraordinarily poor planning to rely on twitch-type income for your entire living with no backup plan. I don't really have any sympathy for someone who makes that choice unless twitch explicitly misled them. Just the facts that streamers aren't privy to twitch's financial figures or participants in meetings on the future path of the company makes it a very, very foolish idea.
In any case, quite a few streamers were doing all right financially before subscriptions existed, and there's not much reason to think that this would be much more than an income adjustment for that type of streamer.
using adblock is pointless and having this is pointless players dont do anything while ads are on and neither do shows or tournaments..... so not having the first ad is fine but the rest of it dosnt even matter theres no content to be watched during them regardless
This is categorically untrue and my post on the previous page already explained why. If there was no point, people wouldn't use adblock. The "point" of adblock is convenience--the convenience of not having to constantly adjust your volume, not having to hear something that jarringly interrupts the flow of whatever else you're listening to, not having to view advertising in the first place, and on and on. Maybe you've never noticed, but most advertising has a particular tone of trying to sell you something. To me it's very grating; I don't want to hear it and I'll go to some lengths to avoid it. Ads are extremely annoying to many people and your understanding of the situation would be enhanced if you'd acknowledge that.
On February 06 2013 02:26 theqat wrote: It would be extraordinarily poor planning to rely on twitch-type income for your entire living with no backup plan. I don't really have any sympathy for someone who makes that choice unless twitch explicitly misled them. Just the facts that streamers aren't privy to twitch's financial figures or participants in meetings on the future path of the company makes it a very, very foolish idea.
In any case, quite a few streamers were doing all right financially before subscriptions existed, and there's not much reason to think that this would be much more than an income adjustment for that type of streamer.
using adblock is pointless and having this is pointless players dont do anything while ads are on and neither do shows or tournaments..... so not having the first ad is fine but the rest of it dosnt even matter theres no content to be watched during them regardless
This is categorically untrue. If there was no point, people wouldn't use adblock. The "point" of adblock is not having to constantly adjust your volume, not having to hear something that jarringly interrupts the flow of whatever else you're listening to, not having to view advertising in the first place, and on and on. Maybe you've never noticed, but most advertising has a particular tone of trying to sell you something. To me it's very grating; I don't want to hear it and I'll go to some lengths to avoid it. Ads are extremely annoying to many people and your understanding of the situation would be enhanced if you'd acknowledge that.
i dont find having to push a mute button every 30ish minutes worth paying 9$ a month. personally
On February 06 2013 02:26 theqat wrote: It would be extraordinarily poor planning to rely on twitch-type income for your entire living with no backup plan. I don't really have any sympathy for someone who makes that choice unless twitch explicitly misled them. Just the facts that streamers aren't privy to twitch's financial figures or participants in meetings on the future path of the company makes it a very, very foolish idea.
In any case, quite a few streamers were doing all right financially before subscriptions existed, and there's not much reason to think that this would be much more than an income adjustment for that type of streamer.
using adblock is pointless and having this is pointless players dont do anything while ads are on and neither do shows or tournaments..... so not having the first ad is fine but the rest of it dosnt even matter theres no content to be watched during them regardless
This is categorically untrue. If there was no point, people wouldn't use adblock. The "point" of adblock is not having to constantly adjust your volume, not having to hear something that jarringly interrupts the flow of whatever else you're listening to, not having to view advertising in the first place, and on and on. Maybe you've never noticed, but most advertising has a particular tone of trying to sell you something. To me it's very grating; I don't want to hear it and I'll go to some lengths to avoid it. Ads are extremely annoying to many people and your understanding of the situation would be enhanced if you'd acknowledge that.
i dont find having to push a mute button every 30ish minutes worth paying 9$ a month. personally
Nice strawman, but that's not even close to covering what I'm talking about. Not only do you not have to mute things if you're using adblock, but if you're doing something else you don't have to tab back in to the stream. You don't have to look at that obnoxious ad if you're looking at the stream. You don't have to hear even one second of blasting-volume audio if you accidentally forget to mute before the ad. You don't have to mute your entire computer, including your music and/or games, just to get rid of that ad that doesn't have a volume/mute button on it.
You can use adblock to accomplish all that, but you'll know that you aren't supporting twitch or the streamer. Now twitch brings out Turbo, which--wait for it--you can use to support twitch and the streamer AND have the convenience level of adblock. It might not be to the level of a $5/mo subscription, but it's something for everyone instead of $5 to one or two guys.
There are people out there that care about this. You seem dead set on refusing to understand their perspective, but they exist whether you like it or not.
On February 06 2013 02:26 theqat wrote: It would be extraordinarily poor planning to rely on twitch-type income for your entire living with no backup plan. I don't really have any sympathy for someone who makes that choice unless twitch explicitly misled them. Just the facts that streamers aren't privy to twitch's financial figures or participants in meetings on the future path of the company makes it a very, very foolish idea.
In any case, quite a few streamers were doing all right financially before subscriptions existed, and there's not much reason to think that this would be much more than an income adjustment for that type of streamer.
using adblock is pointless and having this is pointless players dont do anything while ads are on and neither do shows or tournaments..... so not having the first ad is fine but the rest of it dosnt even matter theres no content to be watched during them regardless
This is categorically untrue. If there was no point, people wouldn't use adblock. The "point" of adblock is not having to constantly adjust your volume, not having to hear something that jarringly interrupts the flow of whatever else you're listening to, not having to view advertising in the first place, and on and on. Maybe you've never noticed, but most advertising has a particular tone of trying to sell you something. To me it's very grating; I don't want to hear it and I'll go to some lengths to avoid it. Ads are extremely annoying to many people and your understanding of the situation would be enhanced if you'd acknowledge that.
i dont find having to push a mute button every 30ish minutes worth paying 9$ a month. personally
Nice strawman, but that's not even close to covering what I'm talking about. Not only do you not have to mute things if you're using adblock, but if you're doing something else you don't have to tab back in to the stream. You don't have to look at that obnoxious ad if you're looking at the stream. You don't have to hear even one second of blasting-volume audio if you accidentally forget to mute before the ad. You don't have to mute your entire computer, including your music and/or games, just to get rid of that ad that doesn't have a volume/mute button on it.
You can use adblock to accomplish all that, but you'll know that you aren't supporting twitch or the streamer. Now twitch brings out Turbo, which--wait for it--you can use to support twitch and the streamer AND have the convenience level of adblock. It might not be to the level of a $5/mo subscription, but it's something for everyone instead of $5 to one or two guys.
There are people out there that care about this. You seem dead set on refusing to understand their perspective, but they exist whether you like it or not.
now you are trying to convince me why commercials are annoying?.... everyone knows they are annoying but we watch them to support esports..... and the key word here is sports .... the players are who matter not the streaming platform if twitch goes away a new person will replace them... if the players go away there is no need for a streaming platform you keep telling me how these players that its gonna hurt are the low percentage...... they are the "GOOD" players..... the ones that get tournaments 100k viewers...... the ones that matter....i see your perspective I just dont agree with it..... I think you are the one not seeing this from the pro players point of view...... but we'll see what happens 9$ is overpaying and its a greedy move by twitch its not even close to what even the most dedicated stream viewers could pull in with ad revenue.... keep saying "i dont feel sorry for the people relying on 5$ subscribers" just ignorant statements like this just gives me an off feeling about u...... ur basically admitting that they could and probably will lose money from this wether its gonna lose there house because of it or not is doubtful but ur basically saying the players should take the hit because it benefits u as a viewer... without these players you have nothing to view..... so maybe we should be catering to them and not to people like you with selfish attitudes..
Starting today around 9:00am PST, you can sign up for Twitch Turbo by visiting http://www.twitch.tv/products/turbo, and please feel free to share your thoughts below.
All i hope is that Twitch won't turn for the same as Justin.tv. If you aren't subscriber, you won't be able to watch a certain stream sometimes because of the limit where X amount of people are able to watch the stream from your country, or whatever it is. But i doubt that will happen.
Twitch is basically justin...well justin was bought by twitch or something like that...so i doubt they will follow down that road.
I think it's an interesting concept. I am sure they have done a lot of research before launching it, personally I like it because it just shows they are finding more ways to generate revenue
On February 06 2013 02:26 theqat wrote: It would be extraordinarily poor planning to rely on twitch-type income for your entire living with no backup plan. I don't really have any sympathy for someone who makes that choice unless twitch explicitly misled them. Just the facts that streamers aren't privy to twitch's financial figures or participants in meetings on the future path of the company makes it a very, very foolish idea.
In any case, quite a few streamers were doing all right financially before subscriptions existed, and there's not much reason to think that this would be much more than an income adjustment for that type of streamer.
using adblock is pointless and having this is pointless players dont do anything while ads are on and neither do shows or tournaments..... so not having the first ad is fine but the rest of it dosnt even matter theres no content to be watched during them regardless
This is categorically untrue. If there was no point, people wouldn't use adblock. The "point" of adblock is not having to constantly adjust your volume, not having to hear something that jarringly interrupts the flow of whatever else you're listening to, not having to view advertising in the first place, and on and on. Maybe you've never noticed, but most advertising has a particular tone of trying to sell you something. To me it's very grating; I don't want to hear it and I'll go to some lengths to avoid it. Ads are extremely annoying to many people and your understanding of the situation would be enhanced if you'd acknowledge that.
i dont find having to push a mute button every 30ish minutes worth paying 9$ a month. personally
Nice strawman, but that's not even close to covering what I'm talking about. Not only do you not have to mute things if you're using adblock, but if you're doing something else you don't have to tab back in to the stream. You don't have to look at that obnoxious ad if you're looking at the stream. You don't have to hear even one second of blasting-volume audio if you accidentally forget to mute before the ad. You don't have to mute your entire computer, including your music and/or games, just to get rid of that ad that doesn't have a volume/mute button on it.
You can use adblock to accomplish all that, but you'll know that you aren't supporting twitch or the streamer. Now twitch brings out Turbo, which--wait for it--you can use to support twitch and the streamer AND have the convenience level of adblock. It might not be to the level of a $5/mo subscription, but it's something for everyone instead of $5 to one or two guys.
There are people out there that care about this. You seem dead set on refusing to understand their perspective, but they exist whether you like it or not.
now you are trying to convince me why commercials are annoying?.... everyone knows they are annoying but we watch them to support esports..... and the key word here is sports .... the players are who matter not the streaming platform if twitch goes away a new person will replace them... if the players go away there is no need for a streaming platform you keep telling me how these players that its gonna hurt are the low percentage...... they are the "GOOD" players..... the ones that get tournaments 100k viewers...... the ones that matter....i see your perspective I just dont agree with it..... I think you are the one not seeing this from the pro players point of view...... but we'll see what happens 9$ is overpaying and its a greedy move by twitch its not even close to what even the most dedicated stream viewers could pull in with ad revenue.... keep saying "i dont feel sorry for the people relying on 5$ subscribers" just ignorant statements like this just gives me an off feeling about u...... ur basically admitting that they could and probably will lose money from this weather its gonna lose there house because of it or not is doubtful but ur basically saying the players should take the hit because it benefits u as a viewer... without these players you have nothing to view..... so maybe we should be catering to them and not to people like you with selfish attitudes..
That is not the point that he is trying to make at all. He is saying that Twitch is offer a product in an attempt to build a relationship with its viewers and build a direct form of monthly income. Curretly their business model is based on ad share and subscriptions to specific channels. Personally, I like it when I can directly interface with a company and pay them directly for a service. Companies that rely on ad to make their money(ie, Facebook) always have a conflict between serving me and serving the people who pay them. I would rather pay Twitch directly for the streaming and suffer through fewer or no ads, because I know what they do is not free and bandwidth cost a leg.
Twitch also found that people subscribe to channels to support the stream, rather than avoid ads. I currently subscribe to JP and this change will have no effect on my subscription at all. To tell the truth, there are times when I log out of my account, just so he will get ad revenue while I watching(normally while cooking or doing other chores). Avoiding ads is only a perk to supporting the channel, when I really know I am supporting SotG, Real Talk and the other Esports shows I enjoy. I also pay Giant Bomb monthly because I enjoy what they and their subscriber videos are great. Ads have little to do with my decision to do so and most people understand that ads are a necessary part of broadcasting. Twitch will take care of the broadcasters in some way and all of them are capable of sticking up for themselves and dealing with Twitch directly.
Twitch is a wonderful service, but it also one that cannot provide new free content forever. Twitch is tasks with the job of finding services that we are willing to pay for and then making money off of them. These services have to be above and beyond what they are providing for free. As someone who has paid nearly $100 monthly for cable TV at one point, $10 is nothing and the entertainment I get on Twitch is far more than anything I received though Comcast.
The community as a whole needs to get rid of the impression that everyone in this Esports world is rolling in money. Like all emerging markets, they are making ends meet and trying to build something larger each year. Personally, I like Twitch because they are buildings slowly and seem like the most responsable people in the scene right now.
Also, I will pay CASH MONEY for a roku app. CASH MONEY damn it.
On February 06 2013 02:26 theqat wrote: It would be extraordinarily poor planning to rely on twitch-type income for your entire living with no backup plan. I don't really have any sympathy for someone who makes that choice unless twitch explicitly misled them. Just the facts that streamers aren't privy to twitch's financial figures or participants in meetings on the future path of the company makes it a very, very foolish idea.
In any case, quite a few streamers were doing all right financially before subscriptions existed, and there's not much reason to think that this would be much more than an income adjustment for that type of streamer.
using adblock is pointless and having this is pointless players dont do anything while ads are on and neither do shows or tournaments..... so not having the first ad is fine but the rest of it dosnt even matter theres no content to be watched during them regardless
This is categorically untrue. If there was no point, people wouldn't use adblock. The "point" of adblock is not having to constantly adjust your volume, not having to hear something that jarringly interrupts the flow of whatever else you're listening to, not having to view advertising in the first place, and on and on. Maybe you've never noticed, but most advertising has a particular tone of trying to sell you something. To me it's very grating; I don't want to hear it and I'll go to some lengths to avoid it. Ads are extremely annoying to many people and your understanding of the situation would be enhanced if you'd acknowledge that.
i dont find having to push a mute button every 30ish minutes worth paying 9$ a month. personally
Nice strawman, but that's not even close to covering what I'm talking about. Not only do you not have to mute things if you're using adblock, but if you're doing something else you don't have to tab back in to the stream. You don't have to look at that obnoxious ad if you're looking at the stream. You don't have to hear even one second of blasting-volume audio if you accidentally forget to mute before the ad. You don't have to mute your entire computer, including your music and/or games, just to get rid of that ad that doesn't have a volume/mute button on it.
You can use adblock to accomplish all that, but you'll know that you aren't supporting twitch or the streamer. Now twitch brings out Turbo, which--wait for it--you can use to support twitch and the streamer AND have the convenience level of adblock. It might not be to the level of a $5/mo subscription, but it's something for everyone instead of $5 to one or two guys.
There are people out there that care about this. You seem dead set on refusing to understand their perspective, but they exist whether you like it or not.
now you are trying to convince me why commercials are annoying?.... everyone knows they are annoying but we watch them to support esports..... and the key word here is sports .... the players are who matter not the streaming platform if twitch goes away a new person will replace them... if the players go away there is no need for a streaming platform you keep telling me how these players that its gonna hurt are the low percentage...... they are the "GOOD" players..... the ones that get tournaments 100k viewers...... the ones that matter....i see your perspective I just dont agree with it..... I think you are the one not seeing this from the pro players point of view...... but we'll see what happens 9$ is overpaying and its a greedy move by twitch its not even close to what even the most dedicated stream viewers could pull in with ad revenue.... keep saying "i dont feel sorry for the people relying on 5$ subscribers" just ignorant statements like this just gives me an off feeling about u...... ur basically admitting that they could and probably will lose money from this weather its gonna lose there house because of it or not is doubtful but ur basically saying the players should take the hit because it benefits u as a viewer... without these players you have nothing to view..... so maybe we should be catering to them and not to people like you with selfish attitudes..
That is not the point that he is trying to make at all. He is saying that Twitch is offer a product in an attempt to build a relationship with its viewers and build a direct form of monthly income. Curretly their business model is based on ad share and subscriptions to specific channels. Personally, I like it when I can directly interface with a company and pay them directly for a service. Companies that rely on ad to make their money(ie, Facebook) always have a conflict between serving me and serving the people who pay them. I would rather pay Twitch directly for the streaming and suffer through fewer or no ads, because I know what they do is not free and bandwidth cost a leg.
Twitch also found that people subscribe to channels to support the stream, rather than avoid ads. I currently subscribe to JP and this change will have no effect on my subscription at all. To tell the truth, there are times when I log out of my account, just so he will get ad revenue while I watching(normally while cooking or doing other chores). Avoiding ads is only a perk to supporting the channel, when I really know I am supporting SotG, Real Talk and the other Esports shows I enjoy. I also pay Giant Bomb monthly because I enjoy what they and their subscriber videos are great. Ads have little to do with my decision to do so and most people understand that ads are a necessary part of broadcasting. Twitch will take care of the broadcasters in some way and all of them are capable of sticking up for themselves and dealing with Twitch directly.
Twitch is a wonderful service, but it also one that cannot provide new free content forever. Twitch is tasks with the job of finding services that we are willing to pay for and then making money off of them. These services have to be above and beyond what they are providing for free. As someone who has paid nearly $100 monthly for cable TV at one point, $10 is nothing and the entertainment I get on Twitch is far more than anything I received though Comcast.
The community as a whole needs to get rid of the impression that everyone in this Esports world is rolling in money. Like all emerging markets, they are making ends meet and trying to build something larger each year. Personally, I like Twitch because they are buildings slowly and seem like the most responsable people in the scene right now.
Also, I will pay CASH MONEY for a roku app. CASH MONEY damn it.
content isnt free when there are ads..... they dont provide anything but a platform the players provide the content....even if some people stay loyal and keep subscribing some people wont.... and it hurts the players and instead of them making the price relatively close to what they'd be making off this 1 viewer in add revenue they triple it to 9 dollars when in reality if this viewer is casual which is what most people are, they would be making about 3$ probably per person per month..... and were defending a guy who has already stated he uses adblock 100% of the time which is already the most selfish thing u could possibly do while supporting esports as a whole..... if u wanna support twitch thats great go for it but not at the cost of the players im glad that you wil lcontinue subscribing but not everyone can do it all.... we all have bills and some of us are just kids with no jobs that are in school... these 5$ subs then 15$ subs for tourneys then 9$ here for twitch then 15$ for nasl then 20$ for GSL and 20$ for proleague and all this other shit thats a lot of money now they can all just pay 9$ to twitch only and dont have to pay these extra 5$ to personal subs and why would u even want to when u can just donate and cut twitch out altogether? why should twitch get half of players subscribers revenue whenever they are removing reasons for viewers to subscribe to players versus subscribing to twitch...
I'm so ashamed to use adblock after reading this thread, but that's not going to stop me, sorry. Though I feel way more guilty about it now than, lets say, downloading the last thousand or so movies I've watched or a few hundred gigs of albums in lossless FLAC format. I should add that I pay the $109 a year for GSL + and the $5 ticket for proleague, so i'm not "killing e-sports" by "depriving" people from revenue. I have considered paying the $5 or whatever to subscribe to a particular channel but though haven't done it aside from i think either $5 or $10 once to IPL. Reason behind my using adblock is that most commercials insult my intelligence, and do not actually benefit me, since I wouldn't have bought their product or used their service in the first place - not because I'm cheap, but because it doesn't apply to me. If I could get targeted ads by plugging in my facebook username then I might change my mind. I hate ads so much I pay the $10 for spotify, and recommend others do the same, and I never watch TV shows on TV (only download). Fix the ads.
I agree with the idea I think Nazgul brought it up, but to choose 3, or 4, channels you want your twitch subscription to go to. Sort of like allocating money to whichever charity you see fit. I also agree with the poster above me, more or less.
On February 06 2013 02:26 theqat wrote: It would be extraordinarily poor planning to rely on twitch-type income for your entire living with no backup plan. I don't really have any sympathy for someone who makes that choice unless twitch explicitly misled them. Just the facts that streamers aren't privy to twitch's financial figures or participants in meetings on the future path of the company makes it a very, very foolish idea.
In any case, quite a few streamers were doing all right financially before subscriptions existed, and there's not much reason to think that this would be much more than an income adjustment for that type of streamer.
using adblock is pointless and having this is pointless players dont do anything while ads are on and neither do shows or tournaments..... so not having the first ad is fine but the rest of it dosnt even matter theres no content to be watched during them regardless
This is categorically untrue. If there was no point, people wouldn't use adblock. The "point" of adblock is not having to constantly adjust your volume, not having to hear something that jarringly interrupts the flow of whatever else you're listening to, not having to view advertising in the first place, and on and on. Maybe you've never noticed, but most advertising has a particular tone of trying to sell you something. To me it's very grating; I don't want to hear it and I'll go to some lengths to avoid it. Ads are extremely annoying to many people and your understanding of the situation would be enhanced if you'd acknowledge that.
i dont find having to push a mute button every 30ish minutes worth paying 9$ a month. personally
Nice strawman, but that's not even close to covering what I'm talking about. Not only do you not have to mute things if you're using adblock, but if you're doing something else you don't have to tab back in to the stream. You don't have to look at that obnoxious ad if you're looking at the stream. You don't have to hear even one second of blasting-volume audio if you accidentally forget to mute before the ad. You don't have to mute your entire computer, including your music and/or games, just to get rid of that ad that doesn't have a volume/mute button on it.
You can use adblock to accomplish all that, but you'll know that you aren't supporting twitch or the streamer. Now twitch brings out Turbo, which--wait for it--you can use to support twitch and the streamer AND have the convenience level of adblock. It might not be to the level of a $5/mo subscription, but it's something for everyone instead of $5 to one or two guys.
There are people out there that care about this. You seem dead set on refusing to understand their perspective, but they exist whether you like it or not.
now you are trying to convince me why commercials are annoying?.... everyone knows they are annoying but we watch them to support esports..... and the key word here is sports .... the players are who matter not the streaming platform if twitch goes away a new person will replace them... if the players go away there is no need for a streaming platform you keep telling me how these players that its gonna hurt are the low percentage...... they are the "GOOD" players..... the ones that get tournaments 100k viewers...... the ones that matter....i see your perspective I just dont agree with it..... I think you are the one not seeing this from the pro players point of view...... but we'll see what happens 9$ is overpaying and its a greedy move by twitch its not even close to what even the most dedicated stream viewers could pull in with ad revenue.... keep saying "i dont feel sorry for the people relying on 5$ subscribers" just ignorant statements like this just gives me an off feeling about u...... ur basically admitting that they could and probably will lose money from this weather its gonna lose there house because of it or not is doubtful but ur basically saying the players should take the hit because it benefits u as a viewer... without these players you have nothing to view..... so maybe we should be catering to them and not to people like you with selfish attitudes..
That is not the point that he is trying to make at all. He is saying that Twitch is offer a product in an attempt to build a relationship with its viewers and build a direct form of monthly income. Curretly their business model is based on ad share and subscriptions to specific channels. Personally, I like it when I can directly interface with a company and pay them directly for a service. Companies that rely on ad to make their money(ie, Facebook) always have a conflict between serving me and serving the people who pay them. I would rather pay Twitch directly for the streaming and suffer through fewer or no ads, because I know what they do is not free and bandwidth cost a leg.
Twitch also found that people subscribe to channels to support the stream, rather than avoid ads. I currently subscribe to JP and this change will have no effect on my subscription at all. To tell the truth, there are times when I log out of my account, just so he will get ad revenue while I watching(normally while cooking or doing other chores). Avoiding ads is only a perk to supporting the channel, when I really know I am supporting SotG, Real Talk and the other Esports shows I enjoy. I also pay Giant Bomb monthly because I enjoy what they and their subscriber videos are great. Ads have little to do with my decision to do so and most people understand that ads are a necessary part of broadcasting. Twitch will take care of the broadcasters in some way and all of them are capable of sticking up for themselves and dealing with Twitch directly.
Twitch is a wonderful service, but it also one that cannot provide new free content forever. Twitch is tasks with the job of finding services that we are willing to pay for and then making money off of them. These services have to be above and beyond what they are providing for free. As someone who has paid nearly $100 monthly for cable TV at one point, $10 is nothing and the entertainment I get on Twitch is far more than anything I received though Comcast.
The community as a whole needs to get rid of the impression that everyone in this Esports world is rolling in money. Like all emerging markets, they are making ends meet and trying to build something larger each year. Personally, I like Twitch because they are buildings slowly and seem like the most responsable people in the scene right now.
Also, I will pay CASH MONEY for a roku app. CASH MONEY damn it.
content isnt free when there are ads..... they dont provide anything but a platform the players provide the content....even if some people stay loyal and keep subscribing some people wont.... and it hurts the players and instead of them making the price relatively close to what they'd be making off this 1 viewer in add revenue they triple it to 9 dollars when in reality if this viewer is casual which is what most people are, they would be making about 3$ probably per person per month..... and were defending a guy who has already stated he uses adblock 100% of the time which is already the most selfish thing u could possibly do while supporting esports as a whole..... if u wanna support twitch thats great go for it but not at the cost of the players im glad that you wil lcontinue subscribing but not everyone can do it all.... we all have bills and some of us are just kids with no jobs that are in school... these 5$ subs then 15$ subs for tourneys then 9$ here for twitch then 15$ for nasl then 20$ for GSL and 20$ for proleague and all this other shit thats a lot of money now they can all just pay 9$ to twitch only and dont have to pay these extra 5$ to personal subs and why would u even want to when u can just donate and cut twitch out altogether? why should twitch get half of players subscribers revenue whenever they are removing reasons for viewers to subscribe to players versus subscribing to twitch...
Content is free where there are ads. I don't pay money to watch it, so it is free. Parks are free, even thought I pay taxes and there are ads on some of the buildings in the park. Ads do not count as money spent because no one spent any money and anyone who tries to make that argument is a fool.
Twitch gets to set the standard because they made all the investment, took all the risk and did all the hard work. They started Justin.tv and grew that up slowly, buying servers and increasing their ability to serve people. They have been around for years and have invested in the infrastructure to provide the streams that they do. None of this stuff is free for them at all. Bandwidth cost money and a lot of it. Husky said on the Executives that if were to host his videos himself, rather than go through Youtube, his bandwidth costs for people viewing those videos would be $50,000.00 monthly. There is no way he could do that on his own, so he goes through Youtube.
The same goes for Twitch TV. Every minute of video that does out costs Twitch money in bandwidth cost. The players do not have the money or ability to stream that themselves, so they go through Twitch and everyone gets some of the money. Simply put, if Twitch was not around, the players options would be limited to how they could stream, if at all. The only thing the broadcaster is investing is their time into making stream, while Twitch has built the software, gotten the deals with the advertising companies, created the stream, built websites to hosts the streams and set up a system to pay the broadcasters. They do a ton of work behind the scenes and should be paid for it. If the broadcasters don’t like it, they can try to work out a better deal with Twitch on their own, but at the end of the day Twitch did all the work to set up this system and they can set their own terms.
As you are right, people are asking to get paid for the stuff they are providing and people are having to make choices on what to buy. That is not bad and people should be making choices on what to pay for. If players lose some subs, they may need to work harder to get them back by offering something else.
@regularduck Purchasing turbo is an investment! By March we plan to let only Turbo users use Twitch chat, so it will have definite value.
Twitch.tv plans on moving their chat servers to a subscription only service come March. What do you guys think of this?
Love it to death. I hate dealing with random people from the internet trolling the chat. I will pay to only chat with people who are also winning to pay. The rest of the population can sit and watch from afar.
On February 06 2013 02:26 theqat wrote: It would be extraordinarily poor planning to rely on twitch-type income for your entire living with no backup plan. I don't really have any sympathy for someone who makes that choice unless twitch explicitly misled them. Just the facts that streamers aren't privy to twitch's financial figures or participants in meetings on the future path of the company makes it a very, very foolish idea.
In any case, quite a few streamers were doing all right financially before subscriptions existed, and there's not much reason to think that this would be much more than an income adjustment for that type of streamer.
using adblock is pointless and having this is pointless players dont do anything while ads are on and neither do shows or tournaments..... so not having the first ad is fine but the rest of it dosnt even matter theres no content to be watched during them regardless
This is categorically untrue. If there was no point, people wouldn't use adblock. The "point" of adblock is not having to constantly adjust your volume, not having to hear something that jarringly interrupts the flow of whatever else you're listening to, not having to view advertising in the first place, and on and on. Maybe you've never noticed, but most advertising has a particular tone of trying to sell you something. To me it's very grating; I don't want to hear it and I'll go to some lengths to avoid it. Ads are extremely annoying to many people and your understanding of the situation would be enhanced if you'd acknowledge that.
i dont find having to push a mute button every 30ish minutes worth paying 9$ a month. personally
Nice strawman, but that's not even close to covering what I'm talking about. Not only do you not have to mute things if you're using adblock, but if you're doing something else you don't have to tab back in to the stream. You don't have to look at that obnoxious ad if you're looking at the stream. You don't have to hear even one second of blasting-volume audio if you accidentally forget to mute before the ad. You don't have to mute your entire computer, including your music and/or games, just to get rid of that ad that doesn't have a volume/mute button on it.
You can use adblock to accomplish all that, but you'll know that you aren't supporting twitch or the streamer. Now twitch brings out Turbo, which--wait for it--you can use to support twitch and the streamer AND have the convenience level of adblock. It might not be to the level of a $5/mo subscription, but it's something for everyone instead of $5 to one or two guys.
There are people out there that care about this. You seem dead set on refusing to understand their perspective, but they exist whether you like it or not.
now you are trying to convince me why commercials are annoying?.... everyone knows they are annoying but we watch them to support esports..... and the key word here is sports .... the players are who matter not the streaming platform if twitch goes away a new person will replace them... if the players go away there is no need for a streaming platform you keep telling me how these players that its gonna hurt are the low percentage...... they are the "GOOD" players..... the ones that get tournaments 100k viewers...... the ones that matter....i see your perspective I just dont agree with it..... I think you are the one not seeing this from the pro players point of view...... but we'll see what happens 9$ is overpaying and its a greedy move by twitch its not even close to what even the most dedicated stream viewers could pull in with ad revenue.... keep saying "i dont feel sorry for the people relying on 5$ subscribers" just ignorant statements like this just gives me an off feeling about u...... ur basically admitting that they could and probably will lose money from this weather its gonna lose there house because of it or not is doubtful but ur basically saying the players should take the hit because it benefits u as a viewer... without these players you have nothing to view..... so maybe we should be catering to them and not to people like you with selfish attitudes..
That is not the point that he is trying to make at all. He is saying that Twitch is offer a product in an attempt to build a relationship with its viewers and build a direct form of monthly income. Curretly their business model is based on ad share and subscriptions to specific channels. Personally, I like it when I can directly interface with a company and pay them directly for a service. Companies that rely on ad to make their money(ie, Facebook) always have a conflict between serving me and serving the people who pay them. I would rather pay Twitch directly for the streaming and suffer through fewer or no ads, because I know what they do is not free and bandwidth cost a leg.
Twitch also found that people subscribe to channels to support the stream, rather than avoid ads. I currently subscribe to JP and this change will have no effect on my subscription at all. To tell the truth, there are times when I log out of my account, just so he will get ad revenue while I watching(normally while cooking or doing other chores). Avoiding ads is only a perk to supporting the channel, when I really know I am supporting SotG, Real Talk and the other Esports shows I enjoy. I also pay Giant Bomb monthly because I enjoy what they and their subscriber videos are great. Ads have little to do with my decision to do so and most people understand that ads are a necessary part of broadcasting. Twitch will take care of the broadcasters in some way and all of them are capable of sticking up for themselves and dealing with Twitch directly.
Twitch is a wonderful service, but it also one that cannot provide new free content forever. Twitch is tasks with the job of finding services that we are willing to pay for and then making money off of them. These services have to be above and beyond what they are providing for free. As someone who has paid nearly $100 monthly for cable TV at one point, $10 is nothing and the entertainment I get on Twitch is far more than anything I received though Comcast.
The community as a whole needs to get rid of the impression that everyone in this Esports world is rolling in money. Like all emerging markets, they are making ends meet and trying to build something larger each year. Personally, I like Twitch because they are buildings slowly and seem like the most responsable people in the scene right now.
Also, I will pay CASH MONEY for a roku app. CASH MONEY damn it.
content isnt free when there are ads..... they dont provide anything but a platform the players provide the content....even if some people stay loyal and keep subscribing some people wont.... and it hurts the players and instead of them making the price relatively close to what they'd be making off this 1 viewer in add revenue they triple it to 9 dollars when in reality if this viewer is casual which is what most people are, they would be making about 3$ probably per person per month..... and were defending a guy who has already stated he uses adblock 100% of the time which is already the most selfish thing u could possibly do while supporting esports as a whole..... if u wanna support twitch thats great go for it but not at the cost of the players im glad that you wil lcontinue subscribing but not everyone can do it all.... we all have bills and some of us are just kids with no jobs that are in school... these 5$ subs then 15$ subs for tourneys then 9$ here for twitch then 15$ for nasl then 20$ for GSL and 20$ for proleague and all this other shit thats a lot of money now they can all just pay 9$ to twitch only and dont have to pay these extra 5$ to personal subs and why would u even want to when u can just donate and cut twitch out altogether? why should twitch get half of players subscribers revenue whenever they are removing reasons for viewers to subscribe to players versus subscribing to twitch...
Content is free where there are ads. I don't pay money to watch it, so it is free. Parks are free, even thought I pay taxes and there are ads on some of the buildings in the park. Ads do not count as money spent because no one spent any money and anyone who tries to make that argument is a fool.
Twitch gets to set the standard because they made all the investment, took all the risk and did all the hard work. They started Justin.tv and grew that up slowly, buying servers and increasing their ability to serve people. They have been around for years and have invested in the infrastructure to provide the streams that they do. None of this stuff is free for them at all. Bandwidth cost money and a lot of it. Husky said on the Executives that if were to host his videos himself, rather than go through Youtube, his bandwidth costs for people viewing those videos would be $50,000.00 monthly. There is no way he could do that on his own, so he goes through Youtube.
The same goes for Twitch TV. Every minute of video that does out costs Twitch money in bandwidth cost. The players do not have the money or ability to stream that themselves, so they go through Twitch and everyone gets some of the money. Simply put, if Twitch was not around, the players options would be limited to how they could stream, if at all. The only thing the broadcaster is investing is their time into making stream, while Twitch has built the software, gotten the deals with the advertising companies, created the stream, built websites to hosts the streams and set up a system to pay the broadcasters. They do a ton of work behind the scenes and should be paid for it. If the broadcasters don’t like it, they can try to work out a better deal with Twitch on their own, but at the end of the day Twitch did all the work to set up this system and they can set their own terms.
As you are right, people are asking to get paid for the stuff they are providing and people are having to make choices on what to buy. That is not bad and people should be making choices on what to pay for. If players lose some subs, they may need to work harder to get them back by offering something else.
k i guess ESPN broadcasters get to set the standard rather than the players they are broadcasting your right what was i thinking
the content is also being paid for by the advertisers.... just because you arent the one paying them directly dosnt mean it isnt being paid for.... twitch is recieving cash for it.. so putting it out there like there just doing a bunch of charity work is not gonna get u very far..
cater to your players should be the model twitch has because they are the reason they have a business to begin with.... think of the NBA and how much money they lost because the players fought back...
@regularduck Purchasing turbo is an investment! By March we plan to let only Turbo users use Twitch chat, so it will have definite value.
Twitch.tv plans on moving their chat servers to a subscription only service come March. What do you guys think of this?
Love it to death. I hate dealing with random people from the internet trolling the chat. I will pay to only chat with people who are also winning to pay. The rest of the population can sit and watch from afar.
looks like another move towards making there streams purely ppv which is what MLG stuck its hands into and got them bitten off pretty dramatically if i remember correctly.
This came up yesterday in a chat and I just wanted to clarify:
I contacted Twitch because I was curious about ad revenue as a turbo user for a streamer you subscribed to. Their response (paraphrased)
"We're 99% sure that even as a subscriber, they will still get your ad impressions as a turbo user even though you wouldn't see the ads because of the subscription service."
Not entirely on topic, but something I thought would be important to know, for those who are curious.
@regularduck Purchasing turbo is an investment! By March we plan to let only Turbo users use Twitch chat, so it will have definite value.
Twitch.tv plans on moving their chat servers to a subscription only service come March. What do you guys think of this?
Love it to death. I hate dealing with random people from the internet trolling the chat. I will pay to only chat with people who are also winning to pay. The rest of the population can sit and watch from afar.
looks like another move towards making there streams purely ppv which is what MLG stuck its hands into and got them bitten off pretty dramatically if i remember correctly.
That Twitchsupport account is probably a fake. So i don't think Twitch is actually making chat for Turbo users only.
On February 06 2013 02:26 theqat wrote: It would be extraordinarily poor planning to rely on twitch-type income for your entire living with no backup plan. I don't really have any sympathy for someone who makes that choice unless twitch explicitly misled them. Just the facts that streamers aren't privy to twitch's financial figures or participants in meetings on the future path of the company makes it a very, very foolish idea.
In any case, quite a few streamers were doing all right financially before subscriptions existed, and there's not much reason to think that this would be much more than an income adjustment for that type of streamer.
using adblock is pointless and having this is pointless players dont do anything while ads are on and neither do shows or tournaments..... so not having the first ad is fine but the rest of it dosnt even matter theres no content to be watched during them regardless
This is categorically untrue. If there was no point, people wouldn't use adblock. The "point" of adblock is not having to constantly adjust your volume, not having to hear something that jarringly interrupts the flow of whatever else you're listening to, not having to view advertising in the first place, and on and on. Maybe you've never noticed, but most advertising has a particular tone of trying to sell you something. To me it's very grating; I don't want to hear it and I'll go to some lengths to avoid it. Ads are extremely annoying to many people and your understanding of the situation would be enhanced if you'd acknowledge that.
i dont find having to push a mute button every 30ish minutes worth paying 9$ a month. personally
Nice strawman, but that's not even close to covering what I'm talking about. Not only do you not have to mute things if you're using adblock, but if you're doing something else you don't have to tab back in to the stream. You don't have to look at that obnoxious ad if you're looking at the stream. You don't have to hear even one second of blasting-volume audio if you accidentally forget to mute before the ad. You don't have to mute your entire computer, including your music and/or games, just to get rid of that ad that doesn't have a volume/mute button on it.
You can use adblock to accomplish all that, but you'll know that you aren't supporting twitch or the streamer. Now twitch brings out Turbo, which--wait for it--you can use to support twitch and the streamer AND have the convenience level of adblock. It might not be to the level of a $5/mo subscription, but it's something for everyone instead of $5 to one or two guys.
There are people out there that care about this. You seem dead set on refusing to understand their perspective, but they exist whether you like it or not.
now you are trying to convince me why commercials are annoying?.... everyone knows they are annoying but we watch them to support esports..... and the key word here is sports .... the players are who matter not the streaming platform if twitch goes away a new person will replace them... if the players go away there is no need for a streaming platform you keep telling me how these players that its gonna hurt are the low percentage...... they are the "GOOD" players..... the ones that get tournaments 100k viewers...... the ones that matter....i see your perspective I just dont agree with it..... I think you are the one not seeing this from the pro players point of view...... but we'll see what happens 9$ is overpaying and its a greedy move by twitch its not even close to what even the most dedicated stream viewers could pull in with ad revenue.... keep saying "i dont feel sorry for the people relying on 5$ subscribers" just ignorant statements like this just gives me an off feeling about u...... ur basically admitting that they could and probably will lose money from this weather its gonna lose there house because of it or not is doubtful but ur basically saying the players should take the hit because it benefits u as a viewer... without these players you have nothing to view..... so maybe we should be catering to them and not to people like you with selfish attitudes..
That is not the point that he is trying to make at all. He is saying that Twitch is offer a product in an attempt to build a relationship with its viewers and build a direct form of monthly income. Curretly their business model is based on ad share and subscriptions to specific channels. Personally, I like it when I can directly interface with a company and pay them directly for a service. Companies that rely on ad to make their money(ie, Facebook) always have a conflict between serving me and serving the people who pay them. I would rather pay Twitch directly for the streaming and suffer through fewer or no ads, because I know what they do is not free and bandwidth cost a leg.
Twitch also found that people subscribe to channels to support the stream, rather than avoid ads. I currently subscribe to JP and this change will have no effect on my subscription at all. To tell the truth, there are times when I log out of my account, just so he will get ad revenue while I watching(normally while cooking or doing other chores). Avoiding ads is only a perk to supporting the channel, when I really know I am supporting SotG, Real Talk and the other Esports shows I enjoy. I also pay Giant Bomb monthly because I enjoy what they and their subscriber videos are great. Ads have little to do with my decision to do so and most people understand that ads are a necessary part of broadcasting. Twitch will take care of the broadcasters in some way and all of them are capable of sticking up for themselves and dealing with Twitch directly.
Twitch is a wonderful service, but it also one that cannot provide new free content forever. Twitch is tasks with the job of finding services that we are willing to pay for and then making money off of them. These services have to be above and beyond what they are providing for free. As someone who has paid nearly $100 monthly for cable TV at one point, $10 is nothing and the entertainment I get on Twitch is far more than anything I received though Comcast.
The community as a whole needs to get rid of the impression that everyone in this Esports world is rolling in money. Like all emerging markets, they are making ends meet and trying to build something larger each year. Personally, I like Twitch because they are buildings slowly and seem like the most responsable people in the scene right now.
Also, I will pay CASH MONEY for a roku app. CASH MONEY damn it.
content isnt free when there are ads..... they dont provide anything but a platform the players provide the content....even if some people stay loyal and keep subscribing some people wont.... and it hurts the players and instead of them making the price relatively close to what they'd be making off this 1 viewer in add revenue they triple it to 9 dollars when in reality if this viewer is casual which is what most people are, they would be making about 3$ probably per person per month..... and were defending a guy who has already stated he uses adblock 100% of the time which is already the most selfish thing u could possibly do while supporting esports as a whole..... if u wanna support twitch thats great go for it but not at the cost of the players im glad that you wil lcontinue subscribing but not everyone can do it all.... we all have bills and some of us are just kids with no jobs that are in school... these 5$ subs then 15$ subs for tourneys then 9$ here for twitch then 15$ for nasl then 20$ for GSL and 20$ for proleague and all this other shit thats a lot of money now they can all just pay 9$ to twitch only and dont have to pay these extra 5$ to personal subs and why would u even want to when u can just donate and cut twitch out altogether? why should twitch get half of players subscribers revenue whenever they are removing reasons for viewers to subscribe to players versus subscribing to twitch...
I paid for every GSL ticket for 2+ years, have bought all but one ticket in-game in Dota2, paid for TSL+, paid for MLG Gold, paid for NASL Season 1, had a Beyondthesummit subscription, and now am a Twitch subscriber. I'm sure there's other stuff I can't remember. Point being I've put more money into esports than most people ever will, so fuck off telling me I'm selfish and learn how to punctuate and spell.
On February 06 2013 02:26 theqat wrote: It would be extraordinarily poor planning to rely on twitch-type income for your entire living with no backup plan. I don't really have any sympathy for someone who makes that choice unless twitch explicitly misled them. Just the facts that streamers aren't privy to twitch's financial figures or participants in meetings on the future path of the company makes it a very, very foolish idea.
In any case, quite a few streamers were doing all right financially before subscriptions existed, and there's not much reason to think that this would be much more than an income adjustment for that type of streamer.
using adblock is pointless and having this is pointless players dont do anything while ads are on and neither do shows or tournaments..... so not having the first ad is fine but the rest of it dosnt even matter theres no content to be watched during them regardless
This is categorically untrue. If there was no point, people wouldn't use adblock. The "point" of adblock is not having to constantly adjust your volume, not having to hear something that jarringly interrupts the flow of whatever else you're listening to, not having to view advertising in the first place, and on and on. Maybe you've never noticed, but most advertising has a particular tone of trying to sell you something. To me it's very grating; I don't want to hear it and I'll go to some lengths to avoid it. Ads are extremely annoying to many people and your understanding of the situation would be enhanced if you'd acknowledge that.
i dont find having to push a mute button every 30ish minutes worth paying 9$ a month. personally
Nice strawman, but that's not even close to covering what I'm talking about. Not only do you not have to mute things if you're using adblock, but if you're doing something else you don't have to tab back in to the stream. You don't have to look at that obnoxious ad if you're looking at the stream. You don't have to hear even one second of blasting-volume audio if you accidentally forget to mute before the ad. You don't have to mute your entire computer, including your music and/or games, just to get rid of that ad that doesn't have a volume/mute button on it.
You can use adblock to accomplish all that, but you'll know that you aren't supporting twitch or the streamer. Now twitch brings out Turbo, which--wait for it--you can use to support twitch and the streamer AND have the convenience level of adblock. It might not be to the level of a $5/mo subscription, but it's something for everyone instead of $5 to one or two guys.
There are people out there that care about this. You seem dead set on refusing to understand their perspective, but they exist whether you like it or not.
now you are trying to convince me why commercials are annoying?.... everyone knows they are annoying but we watch them to support esports..... and the key word here is sports .... the players are who matter not the streaming platform if twitch goes away a new person will replace them... if the players go away there is no need for a streaming platform you keep telling me how these players that its gonna hurt are the low percentage...... they are the "GOOD" players..... the ones that get tournaments 100k viewers...... the ones that matter....i see your perspective I just dont agree with it..... I think you are the one not seeing this from the pro players point of view...... but we'll see what happens 9$ is overpaying and its a greedy move by twitch its not even close to what even the most dedicated stream viewers could pull in with ad revenue.... keep saying "i dont feel sorry for the people relying on 5$ subscribers" just ignorant statements like this just gives me an off feeling about u...... ur basically admitting that they could and probably will lose money from this weather its gonna lose there house because of it or not is doubtful but ur basically saying the players should take the hit because it benefits u as a viewer... without these players you have nothing to view..... so maybe we should be catering to them and not to people like you with selfish attitudes..
That is not the point that he is trying to make at all. He is saying that Twitch is offer a product in an attempt to build a relationship with its viewers and build a direct form of monthly income. Curretly their business model is based on ad share and subscriptions to specific channels. Personally, I like it when I can directly interface with a company and pay them directly for a service. Companies that rely on ad to make their money(ie, Facebook) always have a conflict between serving me and serving the people who pay them. I would rather pay Twitch directly for the streaming and suffer through fewer or no ads, because I know what they do is not free and bandwidth cost a leg.
Twitch also found that people subscribe to channels to support the stream, rather than avoid ads. I currently subscribe to JP and this change will have no effect on my subscription at all. To tell the truth, there are times when I log out of my account, just so he will get ad revenue while I watching(normally while cooking or doing other chores). Avoiding ads is only a perk to supporting the channel, when I really know I am supporting SotG, Real Talk and the other Esports shows I enjoy. I also pay Giant Bomb monthly because I enjoy what they and their subscriber videos are great. Ads have little to do with my decision to do so and most people understand that ads are a necessary part of broadcasting. Twitch will take care of the broadcasters in some way and all of them are capable of sticking up for themselves and dealing with Twitch directly.
Twitch is a wonderful service, but it also one that cannot provide new free content forever. Twitch is tasks with the job of finding services that we are willing to pay for and then making money off of them. These services have to be above and beyond what they are providing for free. As someone who has paid nearly $100 monthly for cable TV at one point, $10 is nothing and the entertainment I get on Twitch is far more than anything I received though Comcast.
The community as a whole needs to get rid of the impression that everyone in this Esports world is rolling in money. Like all emerging markets, they are making ends meet and trying to build something larger each year. Personally, I like Twitch because they are buildings slowly and seem like the most responsable people in the scene right now.
Also, I will pay CASH MONEY for a roku app. CASH MONEY damn it.
content isnt free when there are ads..... they dont provide anything but a platform the players provide the content....even if some people stay loyal and keep subscribing some people wont.... and it hurts the players and instead of them making the price relatively close to what they'd be making off this 1 viewer in add revenue they triple it to 9 dollars when in reality if this viewer is casual which is what most people are, they would be making about 3$ probably per person per month..... and were defending a guy who has already stated he uses adblock 100% of the time which is already the most selfish thing u could possibly do while supporting esports as a whole..... if u wanna support twitch thats great go for it but not at the cost of the players im glad that you wil lcontinue subscribing but not everyone can do it all.... we all have bills and some of us are just kids with no jobs that are in school... these 5$ subs then 15$ subs for tourneys then 9$ here for twitch then 15$ for nasl then 20$ for GSL and 20$ for proleague and all this other shit thats a lot of money now they can all just pay 9$ to twitch only and dont have to pay these extra 5$ to personal subs and why would u even want to when u can just donate and cut twitch out altogether? why should twitch get half of players subscribers revenue whenever they are removing reasons for viewers to subscribe to players versus subscribing to twitch...
I paid for every GSL ticket for 2+ years, have bought all but one ticket in-game in Dota2, paid for TSL+, paid for MLG Gold, paid for NASL Season 1, had a Beyondthesummit subscription, and now am a Twitch subscriber. Fuck off telling me I'm selfish and learn how to punctuate and spell.
devouring content from players while blocking the one benefit they get delivering it to you because u dont wanna mute an ad is pretty selfish..... and why do people always bring up english and grammar on internet forums? save it for your english class.... subbing to all of these tournaments is because u want something that isnt available to you for free =/
@regularduck Purchasing turbo is an investment! By March we plan to let only Turbo users use Twitch chat, so it will have definite value.
Twitch.tv plans on moving their chat servers to a subscription only service come March. What do you guys think of this?
Love it to death. I hate dealing with random people from the internet trolling the chat. I will pay to only chat with people who are also winning to pay. The rest of the population can sit and watch from afar.
looks like another move towards making there streams purely ppv which is what MLG stuck its hands into and got them bitten off pretty dramatically if i remember correctly.
That Twitchsupport account is probably a fake. So i don't think Twitch is actually making chat for Turbo users only.
Lol yeah so many people falling for that fake account. It even says in its name, "TwichUnsupport" and says parody account in bio.
On February 06 2013 02:26 theqat wrote: It would be extraordinarily poor planning to rely on twitch-type income for your entire living with no backup plan. I don't really have any sympathy for someone who makes that choice unless twitch explicitly misled them. Just the facts that streamers aren't privy to twitch's financial figures or participants in meetings on the future path of the company makes it a very, very foolish idea.
In any case, quite a few streamers were doing all right financially before subscriptions existed, and there's not much reason to think that this would be much more than an income adjustment for that type of streamer.
using adblock is pointless and having this is pointless players dont do anything while ads are on and neither do shows or tournaments..... so not having the first ad is fine but the rest of it dosnt even matter theres no content to be watched during them regardless
This is categorically untrue. If there was no point, people wouldn't use adblock. The "point" of adblock is not having to constantly adjust your volume, not having to hear something that jarringly interrupts the flow of whatever else you're listening to, not having to view advertising in the first place, and on and on. Maybe you've never noticed, but most advertising has a particular tone of trying to sell you something. To me it's very grating; I don't want to hear it and I'll go to some lengths to avoid it. Ads are extremely annoying to many people and your understanding of the situation would be enhanced if you'd acknowledge that.
i dont find having to push a mute button every 30ish minutes worth paying 9$ a month. personally
Nice strawman, but that's not even close to covering what I'm talking about. Not only do you not have to mute things if you're using adblock, but if you're doing something else you don't have to tab back in to the stream. You don't have to look at that obnoxious ad if you're looking at the stream. You don't have to hear even one second of blasting-volume audio if you accidentally forget to mute before the ad. You don't have to mute your entire computer, including your music and/or games, just to get rid of that ad that doesn't have a volume/mute button on it.
You can use adblock to accomplish all that, but you'll know that you aren't supporting twitch or the streamer. Now twitch brings out Turbo, which--wait for it--you can use to support twitch and the streamer AND have the convenience level of adblock. It might not be to the level of a $5/mo subscription, but it's something for everyone instead of $5 to one or two guys.
There are people out there that care about this. You seem dead set on refusing to understand their perspective, but they exist whether you like it or not.
now you are trying to convince me why commercials are annoying?.... everyone knows they are annoying but we watch them to support esports..... and the key word here is sports .... the players are who matter not the streaming platform if twitch goes away a new person will replace them... if the players go away there is no need for a streaming platform you keep telling me how these players that its gonna hurt are the low percentage...... they are the "GOOD" players..... the ones that get tournaments 100k viewers...... the ones that matter....i see your perspective I just dont agree with it..... I think you are the one not seeing this from the pro players point of view...... but we'll see what happens 9$ is overpaying and its a greedy move by twitch its not even close to what even the most dedicated stream viewers could pull in with ad revenue.... keep saying "i dont feel sorry for the people relying on 5$ subscribers" just ignorant statements like this just gives me an off feeling about u...... ur basically admitting that they could and probably will lose money from this weather its gonna lose there house because of it or not is doubtful but ur basically saying the players should take the hit because it benefits u as a viewer... without these players you have nothing to view..... so maybe we should be catering to them and not to people like you with selfish attitudes..
That is not the point that he is trying to make at all. He is saying that Twitch is offer a product in an attempt to build a relationship with its viewers and build a direct form of monthly income. Curretly their business model is based on ad share and subscriptions to specific channels. Personally, I like it when I can directly interface with a company and pay them directly for a service. Companies that rely on ad to make their money(ie, Facebook) always have a conflict between serving me and serving the people who pay them. I would rather pay Twitch directly for the streaming and suffer through fewer or no ads, because I know what they do is not free and bandwidth cost a leg.
Twitch also found that people subscribe to channels to support the stream, rather than avoid ads. I currently subscribe to JP and this change will have no effect on my subscription at all. To tell the truth, there are times when I log out of my account, just so he will get ad revenue while I watching(normally while cooking or doing other chores). Avoiding ads is only a perk to supporting the channel, when I really know I am supporting SotG, Real Talk and the other Esports shows I enjoy. I also pay Giant Bomb monthly because I enjoy what they and their subscriber videos are great. Ads have little to do with my decision to do so and most people understand that ads are a necessary part of broadcasting. Twitch will take care of the broadcasters in some way and all of them are capable of sticking up for themselves and dealing with Twitch directly.
Twitch is a wonderful service, but it also one that cannot provide new free content forever. Twitch is tasks with the job of finding services that we are willing to pay for and then making money off of them. These services have to be above and beyond what they are providing for free. As someone who has paid nearly $100 monthly for cable TV at one point, $10 is nothing and the entertainment I get on Twitch is far more than anything I received though Comcast.
The community as a whole needs to get rid of the impression that everyone in this Esports world is rolling in money. Like all emerging markets, they are making ends meet and trying to build something larger each year. Personally, I like Twitch because they are buildings slowly and seem like the most responsable people in the scene right now.
Also, I will pay CASH MONEY for a roku app. CASH MONEY damn it.
content isnt free when there are ads..... they dont provide anything but a platform the players provide the content....even if some people stay loyal and keep subscribing some people wont.... and it hurts the players and instead of them making the price relatively close to what they'd be making off this 1 viewer in add revenue they triple it to 9 dollars when in reality if this viewer is casual which is what most people are, they would be making about 3$ probably per person per month..... and were defending a guy who has already stated he uses adblock 100% of the time which is already the most selfish thing u could possibly do while supporting esports as a whole..... if u wanna support twitch thats great go for it but not at the cost of the players im glad that you wil lcontinue subscribing but not everyone can do it all.... we all have bills and some of us are just kids with no jobs that are in school... these 5$ subs then 15$ subs for tourneys then 9$ here for twitch then 15$ for nasl then 20$ for GSL and 20$ for proleague and all this other shit thats a lot of money now they can all just pay 9$ to twitch only and dont have to pay these extra 5$ to personal subs and why would u even want to when u can just donate and cut twitch out altogether? why should twitch get half of players subscribers revenue whenever they are removing reasons for viewers to subscribe to players versus subscribing to twitch...
I paid for every GSL ticket for 2+ years, have bought all but one ticket in-game in Dota2, paid for TSL+, paid for MLG Gold, paid for NASL Season 1, had a Beyondthesummit subscription, and now am a Twitch subscriber. Fuck off telling me I'm selfish and learn how to punctuate and spell.
devouring content from players while blocking the one benefit they get delivering it to you because u dont wanna mute an ad is pretty selfish..... and why do people always bring up english and grammar on internet forums? save it for your english class.... subbing to all of these tournaments is because u want something that isnt available to you for free =/
I bring it up because your posts are hard on the eyes and people would like/respect you more if you didn't write like a jackass. The rest of your post I can't even understand. I've put countless dollars into esports, mostly in tournaments where payment was optional and I could have just watched streams totally for free, and you want to talk shit about me for using adblock. Great, go fuck yourself.
how is he blocking the one benefit they get from delivering to you... theqat, as a turbo user, counts as an impression when they run their ad, so to the streamer, it's exactly the same whether he's turbo or not, except if he was using adblock, which he doesn't have to do NOW. Do you even know what you're talking about LiMEX17?
$9 a month seems kinda steep to me for what the features are right now, though i do like the fact that they are getting broadcasters paid with this. since they do state that this is the beginning of what they're hoping to introduce in the future i'm sure i'll end up getting sucked into this eventually
Ads shouldn't be allowed on the internet. I use adblock and won't ever stop. It is the responsibility of internet users to use adblock so ads will disappear.
On February 06 2013 06:32 RoieTRS wrote: Ads shouldn't be allowed on the internet. I use adblock and won't ever stop. It is the responsibility of internet users to use adblock so ads will disappear.
and then streaming disappears! what a fantastic idea.
On February 06 2013 05:46 Kazeyonoma wrote: how is he blocking the one benefit they get from delivering to you... theqat, as a turbo user, counts as an impression when they run their ad, so to the streamer, it's exactly the same whether he's turbo or not, except if he was using adblock, which he doesn't have to do NOW. Do you even know what you're talking about LiMEX17?
you clearly have came in at the end of a conversation... the amount gained from the "few" users that use adblock that will now purchase the 8.99$ subscription to twitch RATHER than just continue using there free ad block will not out do the personal subscriptions lost from there being an all rounder subscription directly to twitch.... hense players will lose more than they will gain....
On February 05 2013 01:57 Al Bundy wrote: Gotta love the fact that we have to PAY in order to NOT watch ads. Feels like i'm in business with the Mafia here
Mafia, what? They aren't going to break your kneecaps if you don't pay. This is a pretty regular way of monetizing things.
Well, that's not a very honest way to do business if you ask me. Back in the days, when people wanted to avoid ads, they simply switched channels. Anyway, there are a lot of foolish people on the internet who are willing to pay for stuff they can get for free, so GLHF to twitch.
It's not dishonest in any way, I'm not sure how you find anything dishonest in what they are doing.
You have the whole internet at your fingertips, when an ad comes on mute it and read some teamliquid.
From my perspective, they take something that's free and try to sell it. That does not sound legit. Let's be real here; the emoticons, the turbo badge, the expanded chat colors are unnecessary, shallow and superficial and definitely not worth paying for. Also what is a priority customer support? I've been watching twitch for years and I've never had the need to use their customer support.
Turbo is for people who aren't assholes and don't use adblock, but would prefer to see streams (they aren't assholes depriving streamers of their income by using adblock) without ads. Cherrio, consider not using adblock, because you treat the streamers as though they are whoring themselves out, showing games for free.
On February 06 2013 06:32 RoieTRS wrote: Ads shouldn't be allowed on the internet. I use adblock and won't ever stop. It is the responsibility of internet users to use adblock so ads will disappear.
ok, no streams! great idea, genius. and also, no teamliquid! what a wonderful idea, not to support the things we love
On February 06 2013 02:26 theqat wrote: It would be extraordinarily poor planning to rely on twitch-type income for your entire living with no backup plan. I don't really have any sympathy for someone who makes that choice unless twitch explicitly misled them. Just the facts that streamers aren't privy to twitch's financial figures or participants in meetings on the future path of the company makes it a very, very foolish idea.
In any case, quite a few streamers were doing all right financially before subscriptions existed, and there's not much reason to think that this would be much more than an income adjustment for that type of streamer.
using adblock is pointless and having this is pointless players dont do anything while ads are on and neither do shows or tournaments..... so not having the first ad is fine but the rest of it dosnt even matter theres no content to be watched during them regardless
This is categorically untrue. If there was no point, people wouldn't use adblock. The "point" of adblock is not having to constantly adjust your volume, not having to hear something that jarringly interrupts the flow of whatever else you're listening to, not having to view advertising in the first place, and on and on. Maybe you've never noticed, but most advertising has a particular tone of trying to sell you something. To me it's very grating; I don't want to hear it and I'll go to some lengths to avoid it. Ads are extremely annoying to many people and your understanding of the situation would be enhanced if you'd acknowledge that.
i dont find having to push a mute button every 30ish minutes worth paying 9$ a month. personally
Nice strawman, but that's not even close to covering what I'm talking about. Not only do you not have to mute things if you're using adblock, but if you're doing something else you don't have to tab back in to the stream. You don't have to look at that obnoxious ad if you're looking at the stream. You don't have to hear even one second of blasting-volume audio if you accidentally forget to mute before the ad. You don't have to mute your entire computer, including your music and/or games, just to get rid of that ad that doesn't have a volume/mute button on it.
You can use adblock to accomplish all that, but you'll know that you aren't supporting twitch or the streamer. Now twitch brings out Turbo, which--wait for it--you can use to support twitch and the streamer AND have the convenience level of adblock. It might not be to the level of a $5/mo subscription, but it's something for everyone instead of $5 to one or two guys.
There are people out there that care about this. You seem dead set on refusing to understand their perspective, but they exist whether you like it or not.
now you are trying to convince me why commercials are annoying?.... everyone knows they are annoying but we watch them to support esports..... and the key word here is sports .... the players are who matter not the streaming platform if twitch goes away a new person will replace them... if the players go away there is no need for a streaming platform you keep telling me how these players that its gonna hurt are the low percentage...... they are the "GOOD" players..... the ones that get tournaments 100k viewers...... the ones that matter....i see your perspective I just dont agree with it..... I think you are the one not seeing this from the pro players point of view...... but we'll see what happens 9$ is overpaying and its a greedy move by twitch its not even close to what even the most dedicated stream viewers could pull in with ad revenue.... keep saying "i dont feel sorry for the people relying on 5$ subscribers" just ignorant statements like this just gives me an off feeling about u...... ur basically admitting that they could and probably will lose money from this weather its gonna lose there house because of it or not is doubtful but ur basically saying the players should take the hit because it benefits u as a viewer... without these players you have nothing to view..... so maybe we should be catering to them and not to people like you with selfish attitudes..
That is not the point that he is trying to make at all. He is saying that Twitch is offer a product in an attempt to build a relationship with its viewers and build a direct form of monthly income. Curretly their business model is based on ad share and subscriptions to specific channels. Personally, I like it when I can directly interface with a company and pay them directly for a service. Companies that rely on ad to make their money(ie, Facebook) always have a conflict between serving me and serving the people who pay them. I would rather pay Twitch directly for the streaming and suffer through fewer or no ads, because I know what they do is not free and bandwidth cost a leg.
Twitch also found that people subscribe to channels to support the stream, rather than avoid ads. I currently subscribe to JP and this change will have no effect on my subscription at all. To tell the truth, there are times when I log out of my account, just so he will get ad revenue while I watching(normally while cooking or doing other chores). Avoiding ads is only a perk to supporting the channel, when I really know I am supporting SotG, Real Talk and the other Esports shows I enjoy. I also pay Giant Bomb monthly because I enjoy what they and their subscriber videos are great. Ads have little to do with my decision to do so and most people understand that ads are a necessary part of broadcasting. Twitch will take care of the broadcasters in some way and all of them are capable of sticking up for themselves and dealing with Twitch directly.
Twitch is a wonderful service, but it also one that cannot provide new free content forever. Twitch is tasks with the job of finding services that we are willing to pay for and then making money off of them. These services have to be above and beyond what they are providing for free. As someone who has paid nearly $100 monthly for cable TV at one point, $10 is nothing and the entertainment I get on Twitch is far more than anything I received though Comcast.
The community as a whole needs to get rid of the impression that everyone in this Esports world is rolling in money. Like all emerging markets, they are making ends meet and trying to build something larger each year. Personally, I like Twitch because they are buildings slowly and seem like the most responsable people in the scene right now.
Also, I will pay CASH MONEY for a roku app. CASH MONEY damn it.
content isnt free when there are ads..... they dont provide anything but a platform the players provide the content....even if some people stay loyal and keep subscribing some people wont.... and it hurts the players and instead of them making the price relatively close to what they'd be making off this 1 viewer in add revenue they triple it to 9 dollars when in reality if this viewer is casual which is what most people are, they would be making about 3$ probably per person per month..... and were defending a guy who has already stated he uses adblock 100% of the time which is already the most selfish thing u could possibly do while supporting esports as a whole..... if u wanna support twitch thats great go for it but not at the cost of the players im glad that you wil lcontinue subscribing but not everyone can do it all.... we all have bills and some of us are just kids with no jobs that are in school... these 5$ subs then 15$ subs for tourneys then 9$ here for twitch then 15$ for nasl then 20$ for GSL and 20$ for proleague and all this other shit thats a lot of money now they can all just pay 9$ to twitch only and dont have to pay these extra 5$ to personal subs and why would u even want to when u can just donate and cut twitch out altogether? why should twitch get half of players subscribers revenue whenever they are removing reasons for viewers to subscribe to players versus subscribing to twitch...
I paid for every GSL ticket for 2+ years, have bought all but one ticket in-game in Dota2, paid for TSL+, paid for MLG Gold, paid for NASL Season 1, had a Beyondthesummit subscription, and now am a Twitch subscriber. Fuck off telling me I'm selfish and learn how to punctuate and spell.
devouring content from players while blocking the one benefit they get delivering it to you because u dont wanna mute an ad is pretty selfish..... and why do people always bring up english and grammar on internet forums? save it for your english class.... subbing to all of these tournaments is because u want something that isnt available to you for free =/
I bring it up because your posts are hard on the eyes and people would like/respect you more if you didn't write like a jackass. The rest of your post I can't even understand. I've put countless dollars into esports, mostly in tournaments where payment was optional and I could have just watched streams totally for free, and you want to talk shit about me for using adblock. Great, go fuck yourself.
i definitely do not want or need you to like/respect me... your getting angry over a forum debate which is purely speculation and opinion... insulting my grammar and telling me to go fuck myself because i say using adblock is makes you selfish.. this has turned into nothing more than I do more than everyone else so kiss my ass sort of arguement so ill just leave it where it is..... final words 8.99$ = overpriced and players recieve 0$ of it yet twitch gets 50% of player subscriptions....
On February 06 2013 06:32 RoieTRS wrote: Ads shouldn't be allowed on the internet. I use adblock and won't ever stop. It is the responsibility of internet users to use adblock so ads will disappear.
ok, no streams! great idea, genius. and also, no teamliquid! what a wonderful idea, not to support the things we love
On February 06 2013 02:26 theqat wrote: It would be extraordinarily poor planning to rely on twitch-type income for your entire living with no backup plan. I don't really have any sympathy for someone who makes that choice unless twitch explicitly misled them. Just the facts that streamers aren't privy to twitch's financial figures or participants in meetings on the future path of the company makes it a very, very foolish idea.
In any case, quite a few streamers were doing all right financially before subscriptions existed, and there's not much reason to think that this would be much more than an income adjustment for that type of streamer.
[quote]
This is categorically untrue. If there was no point, people wouldn't use adblock. The "point" of adblock is not having to constantly adjust your volume, not having to hear something that jarringly interrupts the flow of whatever else you're listening to, not having to view advertising in the first place, and on and on. Maybe you've never noticed, but most advertising has a particular tone of trying to sell you something. To me it's very grating; I don't want to hear it and I'll go to some lengths to avoid it. Ads are extremely annoying to many people and your understanding of the situation would be enhanced if you'd acknowledge that.
i dont find having to push a mute button every 30ish minutes worth paying 9$ a month. personally
Nice strawman, but that's not even close to covering what I'm talking about. Not only do you not have to mute things if you're using adblock, but if you're doing something else you don't have to tab back in to the stream. You don't have to look at that obnoxious ad if you're looking at the stream. You don't have to hear even one second of blasting-volume audio if you accidentally forget to mute before the ad. You don't have to mute your entire computer, including your music and/or games, just to get rid of that ad that doesn't have a volume/mute button on it.
You can use adblock to accomplish all that, but you'll know that you aren't supporting twitch or the streamer. Now twitch brings out Turbo, which--wait for it--you can use to support twitch and the streamer AND have the convenience level of adblock. It might not be to the level of a $5/mo subscription, but it's something for everyone instead of $5 to one or two guys.
There are people out there that care about this. You seem dead set on refusing to understand their perspective, but they exist whether you like it or not.
now you are trying to convince me why commercials are annoying?.... everyone knows they are annoying but we watch them to support esports..... and the key word here is sports .... the players are who matter not the streaming platform if twitch goes away a new person will replace them... if the players go away there is no need for a streaming platform you keep telling me how these players that its gonna hurt are the low percentage...... they are the "GOOD" players..... the ones that get tournaments 100k viewers...... the ones that matter....i see your perspective I just dont agree with it..... I think you are the one not seeing this from the pro players point of view...... but we'll see what happens 9$ is overpaying and its a greedy move by twitch its not even close to what even the most dedicated stream viewers could pull in with ad revenue.... keep saying "i dont feel sorry for the people relying on 5$ subscribers" just ignorant statements like this just gives me an off feeling about u...... ur basically admitting that they could and probably will lose money from this weather its gonna lose there house because of it or not is doubtful but ur basically saying the players should take the hit because it benefits u as a viewer... without these players you have nothing to view..... so maybe we should be catering to them and not to people like you with selfish attitudes..
That is not the point that he is trying to make at all. He is saying that Twitch is offer a product in an attempt to build a relationship with its viewers and build a direct form of monthly income. Curretly their business model is based on ad share and subscriptions to specific channels. Personally, I like it when I can directly interface with a company and pay them directly for a service. Companies that rely on ad to make their money(ie, Facebook) always have a conflict between serving me and serving the people who pay them. I would rather pay Twitch directly for the streaming and suffer through fewer or no ads, because I know what they do is not free and bandwidth cost a leg.
Twitch also found that people subscribe to channels to support the stream, rather than avoid ads. I currently subscribe to JP and this change will have no effect on my subscription at all. To tell the truth, there are times when I log out of my account, just so he will get ad revenue while I watching(normally while cooking or doing other chores). Avoiding ads is only a perk to supporting the channel, when I really know I am supporting SotG, Real Talk and the other Esports shows I enjoy. I also pay Giant Bomb monthly because I enjoy what they and their subscriber videos are great. Ads have little to do with my decision to do so and most people understand that ads are a necessary part of broadcasting. Twitch will take care of the broadcasters in some way and all of them are capable of sticking up for themselves and dealing with Twitch directly.
Twitch is a wonderful service, but it also one that cannot provide new free content forever. Twitch is tasks with the job of finding services that we are willing to pay for and then making money off of them. These services have to be above and beyond what they are providing for free. As someone who has paid nearly $100 monthly for cable TV at one point, $10 is nothing and the entertainment I get on Twitch is far more than anything I received though Comcast.
The community as a whole needs to get rid of the impression that everyone in this Esports world is rolling in money. Like all emerging markets, they are making ends meet and trying to build something larger each year. Personally, I like Twitch because they are buildings slowly and seem like the most responsable people in the scene right now.
Also, I will pay CASH MONEY for a roku app. CASH MONEY damn it.
content isnt free when there are ads..... they dont provide anything but a platform the players provide the content....even if some people stay loyal and keep subscribing some people wont.... and it hurts the players and instead of them making the price relatively close to what they'd be making off this 1 viewer in add revenue they triple it to 9 dollars when in reality if this viewer is casual which is what most people are, they would be making about 3$ probably per person per month..... and were defending a guy who has already stated he uses adblock 100% of the time which is already the most selfish thing u could possibly do while supporting esports as a whole..... if u wanna support twitch thats great go for it but not at the cost of the players im glad that you wil lcontinue subscribing but not everyone can do it all.... we all have bills and some of us are just kids with no jobs that are in school... these 5$ subs then 15$ subs for tourneys then 9$ here for twitch then 15$ for nasl then 20$ for GSL and 20$ for proleague and all this other shit thats a lot of money now they can all just pay 9$ to twitch only and dont have to pay these extra 5$ to personal subs and why would u even want to when u can just donate and cut twitch out altogether? why should twitch get half of players subscribers revenue whenever they are removing reasons for viewers to subscribe to players versus subscribing to twitch...
I paid for every GSL ticket for 2+ years, have bought all but one ticket in-game in Dota2, paid for TSL+, paid for MLG Gold, paid for NASL Season 1, had a Beyondthesummit subscription, and now am a Twitch subscriber. Fuck off telling me I'm selfish and learn how to punctuate and spell.
devouring content from players while blocking the one benefit they get delivering it to you because u dont wanna mute an ad is pretty selfish..... and why do people always bring up english and grammar on internet forums? save it for your english class.... subbing to all of these tournaments is because u want something that isnt available to you for free =/
I bring it up because your posts are hard on the eyes and people would like/respect you more if you didn't write like a jackass. The rest of your post I can't even understand. I've put countless dollars into esports, mostly in tournaments where payment was optional and I could have just watched streams totally for free, and you want to talk shit about me for using adblock. Great, go fuck yourself.
i definitely do not want or need you to like/respect me... your getting angry over a forum debate which is purely speculation and opinion... insulting my grammar and telling me to go fuck myself because i say using adblock is makes you selfish.. this has turned into nothing more than I do more than everyone else so kiss my ass sort of arguement so ill just leave it where it is..... final words 8.99$ = overpriced and players recieve 0$ of it yet twitch gets 50% of player subscriptions....
Twitch provides the players with bandwidth, software and the ability to stream. As I stated in a previous post, which you did not read or just ignored, they spent more money than the players and are entitled to make it back.
i dont find having to push a mute button every 30ish minutes worth paying 9$ a month. personally
Nice strawman, but that's not even close to covering what I'm talking about. Not only do you not have to mute things if you're using adblock, but if you're doing something else you don't have to tab back in to the stream. You don't have to look at that obnoxious ad if you're looking at the stream. You don't have to hear even one second of blasting-volume audio if you accidentally forget to mute before the ad. You don't have to mute your entire computer, including your music and/or games, just to get rid of that ad that doesn't have a volume/mute button on it.
You can use adblock to accomplish all that, but you'll know that you aren't supporting twitch or the streamer. Now twitch brings out Turbo, which--wait for it--you can use to support twitch and the streamer AND have the convenience level of adblock. It might not be to the level of a $5/mo subscription, but it's something for everyone instead of $5 to one or two guys.
There are people out there that care about this. You seem dead set on refusing to understand their perspective, but they exist whether you like it or not.
now you are trying to convince me why commercials are annoying?.... everyone knows they are annoying but we watch them to support esports..... and the key word here is sports .... the players are who matter not the streaming platform if twitch goes away a new person will replace them... if the players go away there is no need for a streaming platform you keep telling me how these players that its gonna hurt are the low percentage...... they are the "GOOD" players..... the ones that get tournaments 100k viewers...... the ones that matter....i see your perspective I just dont agree with it..... I think you are the one not seeing this from the pro players point of view...... but we'll see what happens 9$ is overpaying and its a greedy move by twitch its not even close to what even the most dedicated stream viewers could pull in with ad revenue.... keep saying "i dont feel sorry for the people relying on 5$ subscribers" just ignorant statements like this just gives me an off feeling about u...... ur basically admitting that they could and probably will lose money from this weather its gonna lose there house because of it or not is doubtful but ur basically saying the players should take the hit because it benefits u as a viewer... without these players you have nothing to view..... so maybe we should be catering to them and not to people like you with selfish attitudes..
That is not the point that he is trying to make at all. He is saying that Twitch is offer a product in an attempt to build a relationship with its viewers and build a direct form of monthly income. Curretly their business model is based on ad share and subscriptions to specific channels. Personally, I like it when I can directly interface with a company and pay them directly for a service. Companies that rely on ad to make their money(ie, Facebook) always have a conflict between serving me and serving the people who pay them. I would rather pay Twitch directly for the streaming and suffer through fewer or no ads, because I know what they do is not free and bandwidth cost a leg.
Twitch also found that people subscribe to channels to support the stream, rather than avoid ads. I currently subscribe to JP and this change will have no effect on my subscription at all. To tell the truth, there are times when I log out of my account, just so he will get ad revenue while I watching(normally while cooking or doing other chores). Avoiding ads is only a perk to supporting the channel, when I really know I am supporting SotG, Real Talk and the other Esports shows I enjoy. I also pay Giant Bomb monthly because I enjoy what they and their subscriber videos are great. Ads have little to do with my decision to do so and most people understand that ads are a necessary part of broadcasting. Twitch will take care of the broadcasters in some way and all of them are capable of sticking up for themselves and dealing with Twitch directly.
Twitch is a wonderful service, but it also one that cannot provide new free content forever. Twitch is tasks with the job of finding services that we are willing to pay for and then making money off of them. These services have to be above and beyond what they are providing for free. As someone who has paid nearly $100 monthly for cable TV at one point, $10 is nothing and the entertainment I get on Twitch is far more than anything I received though Comcast.
The community as a whole needs to get rid of the impression that everyone in this Esports world is rolling in money. Like all emerging markets, they are making ends meet and trying to build something larger each year. Personally, I like Twitch because they are buildings slowly and seem like the most responsable people in the scene right now.
Also, I will pay CASH MONEY for a roku app. CASH MONEY damn it.
content isnt free when there are ads..... they dont provide anything but a platform the players provide the content....even if some people stay loyal and keep subscribing some people wont.... and it hurts the players and instead of them making the price relatively close to what they'd be making off this 1 viewer in add revenue they triple it to 9 dollars when in reality if this viewer is casual which is what most people are, they would be making about 3$ probably per person per month..... and were defending a guy who has already stated he uses adblock 100% of the time which is already the most selfish thing u could possibly do while supporting esports as a whole..... if u wanna support twitch thats great go for it but not at the cost of the players im glad that you wil lcontinue subscribing but not everyone can do it all.... we all have bills and some of us are just kids with no jobs that are in school... these 5$ subs then 15$ subs for tourneys then 9$ here for twitch then 15$ for nasl then 20$ for GSL and 20$ for proleague and all this other shit thats a lot of money now they can all just pay 9$ to twitch only and dont have to pay these extra 5$ to personal subs and why would u even want to when u can just donate and cut twitch out altogether? why should twitch get half of players subscribers revenue whenever they are removing reasons for viewers to subscribe to players versus subscribing to twitch...
I paid for every GSL ticket for 2+ years, have bought all but one ticket in-game in Dota2, paid for TSL+, paid for MLG Gold, paid for NASL Season 1, had a Beyondthesummit subscription, and now am a Twitch subscriber. Fuck off telling me I'm selfish and learn how to punctuate and spell.
devouring content from players while blocking the one benefit they get delivering it to you because u dont wanna mute an ad is pretty selfish..... and why do people always bring up english and grammar on internet forums? save it for your english class.... subbing to all of these tournaments is because u want something that isnt available to you for free =/
I bring it up because your posts are hard on the eyes and people would like/respect you more if you didn't write like a jackass. The rest of your post I can't even understand. I've put countless dollars into esports, mostly in tournaments where payment was optional and I could have just watched streams totally for free, and you want to talk shit about me for using adblock. Great, go fuck yourself.
i definitely do not want or need you to like/respect me... your getting angry over a forum debate which is purely speculation and opinion... insulting my grammar and telling me to go fuck myself because i say using adblock is makes you selfish.. this has turned into nothing more than I do more than everyone else so kiss my ass sort of arguement so ill just leave it where it is..... final words 8.99$ = overpriced and players recieve 0$ of it yet twitch gets 50% of player subscriptions....
Twitch provides the players with bandwidth, software and the ability to stream. As I stated in a previous post, which you did not read or just ignored, they spent more money than the players and are entitled to make it back.
were done here...... i am not some twitch hater that feels they should never make a profit but this is overpriced and benefits the players nothing can only hurt them and when its the players that are making you the money that your "entitled" to have they should not have to take hits so you can profit.
Nice strawman, but that's not even close to covering what I'm talking about. Not only do you not have to mute things if you're using adblock, but if you're doing something else you don't have to tab back in to the stream. You don't have to look at that obnoxious ad if you're looking at the stream. You don't have to hear even one second of blasting-volume audio if you accidentally forget to mute before the ad. You don't have to mute your entire computer, including your music and/or games, just to get rid of that ad that doesn't have a volume/mute button on it.
You can use adblock to accomplish all that, but you'll know that you aren't supporting twitch or the streamer. Now twitch brings out Turbo, which--wait for it--you can use to support twitch and the streamer AND have the convenience level of adblock. It might not be to the level of a $5/mo subscription, but it's something for everyone instead of $5 to one or two guys.
There are people out there that care about this. You seem dead set on refusing to understand their perspective, but they exist whether you like it or not.
now you are trying to convince me why commercials are annoying?.... everyone knows they are annoying but we watch them to support esports..... and the key word here is sports .... the players are who matter not the streaming platform if twitch goes away a new person will replace them... if the players go away there is no need for a streaming platform you keep telling me how these players that its gonna hurt are the low percentage...... they are the "GOOD" players..... the ones that get tournaments 100k viewers...... the ones that matter....i see your perspective I just dont agree with it..... I think you are the one not seeing this from the pro players point of view...... but we'll see what happens 9$ is overpaying and its a greedy move by twitch its not even close to what even the most dedicated stream viewers could pull in with ad revenue.... keep saying "i dont feel sorry for the people relying on 5$ subscribers" just ignorant statements like this just gives me an off feeling about u...... ur basically admitting that they could and probably will lose money from this weather its gonna lose there house because of it or not is doubtful but ur basically saying the players should take the hit because it benefits u as a viewer... without these players you have nothing to view..... so maybe we should be catering to them and not to people like you with selfish attitudes..
That is not the point that he is trying to make at all. He is saying that Twitch is offer a product in an attempt to build a relationship with its viewers and build a direct form of monthly income. Curretly their business model is based on ad share and subscriptions to specific channels. Personally, I like it when I can directly interface with a company and pay them directly for a service. Companies that rely on ad to make their money(ie, Facebook) always have a conflict between serving me and serving the people who pay them. I would rather pay Twitch directly for the streaming and suffer through fewer or no ads, because I know what they do is not free and bandwidth cost a leg.
Twitch also found that people subscribe to channels to support the stream, rather than avoid ads. I currently subscribe to JP and this change will have no effect on my subscription at all. To tell the truth, there are times when I log out of my account, just so he will get ad revenue while I watching(normally while cooking or doing other chores). Avoiding ads is only a perk to supporting the channel, when I really know I am supporting SotG, Real Talk and the other Esports shows I enjoy. I also pay Giant Bomb monthly because I enjoy what they and their subscriber videos are great. Ads have little to do with my decision to do so and most people understand that ads are a necessary part of broadcasting. Twitch will take care of the broadcasters in some way and all of them are capable of sticking up for themselves and dealing with Twitch directly.
Twitch is a wonderful service, but it also one that cannot provide new free content forever. Twitch is tasks with the job of finding services that we are willing to pay for and then making money off of them. These services have to be above and beyond what they are providing for free. As someone who has paid nearly $100 monthly for cable TV at one point, $10 is nothing and the entertainment I get on Twitch is far more than anything I received though Comcast.
The community as a whole needs to get rid of the impression that everyone in this Esports world is rolling in money. Like all emerging markets, they are making ends meet and trying to build something larger each year. Personally, I like Twitch because they are buildings slowly and seem like the most responsable people in the scene right now.
Also, I will pay CASH MONEY for a roku app. CASH MONEY damn it.
content isnt free when there are ads..... they dont provide anything but a platform the players provide the content....even if some people stay loyal and keep subscribing some people wont.... and it hurts the players and instead of them making the price relatively close to what they'd be making off this 1 viewer in add revenue they triple it to 9 dollars when in reality if this viewer is casual which is what most people are, they would be making about 3$ probably per person per month..... and were defending a guy who has already stated he uses adblock 100% of the time which is already the most selfish thing u could possibly do while supporting esports as a whole..... if u wanna support twitch thats great go for it but not at the cost of the players im glad that you wil lcontinue subscribing but not everyone can do it all.... we all have bills and some of us are just kids with no jobs that are in school... these 5$ subs then 15$ subs for tourneys then 9$ here for twitch then 15$ for nasl then 20$ for GSL and 20$ for proleague and all this other shit thats a lot of money now they can all just pay 9$ to twitch only and dont have to pay these extra 5$ to personal subs and why would u even want to when u can just donate and cut twitch out altogether? why should twitch get half of players subscribers revenue whenever they are removing reasons for viewers to subscribe to players versus subscribing to twitch...
I paid for every GSL ticket for 2+ years, have bought all but one ticket in-game in Dota2, paid for TSL+, paid for MLG Gold, paid for NASL Season 1, had a Beyondthesummit subscription, and now am a Twitch subscriber. Fuck off telling me I'm selfish and learn how to punctuate and spell.
devouring content from players while blocking the one benefit they get delivering it to you because u dont wanna mute an ad is pretty selfish..... and why do people always bring up english and grammar on internet forums? save it for your english class.... subbing to all of these tournaments is because u want something that isnt available to you for free =/
I bring it up because your posts are hard on the eyes and people would like/respect you more if you didn't write like a jackass. The rest of your post I can't even understand. I've put countless dollars into esports, mostly in tournaments where payment was optional and I could have just watched streams totally for free, and you want to talk shit about me for using adblock. Great, go fuck yourself.
i definitely do not want or need you to like/respect me... your getting angry over a forum debate which is purely speculation and opinion... insulting my grammar and telling me to go fuck myself because i say using adblock is makes you selfish.. this has turned into nothing more than I do more than everyone else so kiss my ass sort of arguement so ill just leave it where it is..... final words 8.99$ = overpriced and players recieve 0$ of it yet twitch gets 50% of player subscriptions....
Twitch provides the players with bandwidth, software and the ability to stream. As I stated in a previous post, which you did not read or just ignored, they spent more money than the players and are entitled to make it back.
were done here
Who's we? I just got here and wanted to start talking about this?
On February 06 2013 05:46 Kazeyonoma wrote: how is he blocking the one benefit they get from delivering to you... theqat, as a turbo user, counts as an impression when they run their ad, so to the streamer, it's exactly the same whether he's turbo or not, except if he was using adblock, which he doesn't have to do NOW. Do you even know what you're talking about LiMEX17?
you clearly have came in at the end of a conversation... the amount gained from the "few" users that use adblock that will now purchase the 8.99$ subscription to twitch RATHER than just continue using there free ad block will not out do the personal subscriptions lost from there being an all rounder subscription directly to twitch.... hense players will lose more than they will gain....
That's stupid.
People who really don't want ads are not subscring to personal stream, that's just not the case. They all download adblock. People who subscribe to personnals or events stream are doing it because they want to support the guy, they want to gain others benefit the streamer/event is giving (Day9 monobattles, real HD support like PL/NASL/IPL and now GOMTV on twitch) and twitch turbo will have absolutly zero impact on that. They will not suddenly stop subscribing to those simply because they can pay 8,99 for no ads directly on twitch...
Seriously, that will have absolutly zero impact on pretty much every streamers. Hell, it will probably have a good impact on most streamers revenue. Probably not by much, but still.
On February 06 2013 05:46 Kazeyonoma wrote: how is he blocking the one benefit they get from delivering to you... theqat, as a turbo user, counts as an impression when they run their ad, so to the streamer, it's exactly the same whether he's turbo or not, except if he was using adblock, which he doesn't have to do NOW. Do you even know what you're talking about LiMEX17?
you clearly have came in at the end of a conversation... the amount gained from the "few" users that use adblock that will now purchase the 8.99$ subscription to twitch RATHER than just continue using there free ad block will not out do the personal subscriptions lost from there being an all rounder subscription directly to twitch.... hense players will lose more than they will gain....
That's stupid.
People who really don't want ads are not subscring to personal stream, that's just not the case. They all download adblock. People who subscribe to personnals or events stream are doing it because they want to support the guy, they want to gain others benefit the streamer/event is giving (Day9 monobattles, real HD support like PL/NASL/IPL and now GOMTV on twitch) and twitch turbo will have absolutly zero impact on that. They will not suddenly stop subscribing to those simply because they can pay 8,99 for no ads directly on twitch...
Seriously, that will have absolutly zero impact on pretty much every streamers. Hell, it will probably have a good impact on most streamers revenue. Probably not by much, but still.
hope your right... but that is your opinion I can see this impacting subscriber numbers
On February 06 2013 06:32 RoieTRS wrote: Ads shouldn't be allowed on the internet. I use adblock and won't ever stop. It is the responsibility of internet users to use adblock so ads will disappear.
ok, no streams! great idea, genius. and also, no teamliquid! what a wonderful idea, not to support the things we love
On February 06 2013 06:52 Rulker wrote: Turbo is for people who aren't assholes and don't use adblock, but would prefer to see streams (they aren't assholes depriving streamers of their income by using adblock) without ads. Cherrio, consider not using adblock, because you treat the streamers as though they are whoring themselves out, showing games for free.
Showing games for free? Whoring themselves out?
When streaming games first surfaced, people did it for their genuine enjoyment of having other people watch them play. Sure, making money from it is cool and all but at the end of the day they are streaming a video game. I don't feel like an asshole at all for blocking intrusive ads.
On February 06 2013 06:32 RoieTRS wrote: Ads shouldn't be allowed on the internet. I use adblock and won't ever stop. It is the responsibility of internet users to use adblock so ads will disappear.
ok, no streams! great idea, genius. and also, no teamliquid! what a wonderful idea, not to support the things we love
fuck this attitude
Streaming was around before ads appeared on them.
And they didn't get paid. Good try though. They dont get paid > teams get no money > teams fall apart > no streams > no streaming websites.
I'd love if I could assign some of that $9 to my favorite streamers, say $2-3 split between whichever streams I watch based on number of hours (or just manually assigned). Would feel like the perfect mix between channel subscriptions and turbo.
I swear, if they could add turbo login to their Android app, and polish the app a bit while doing it, I would GLADLY pay $9/mo. I basically only watch streams from the Android app, as it stands right now.
On February 06 2013 15:49 R1CH wrote: I'd love if I could assign some of that $9 to my favorite streamers, say $2-3 split between whichever streams I watch based on number of hours (or just manually assigned). Would feel like the perfect mix between channel subscriptions and turbo.
Your idea benefits broadcasters that have subscribers with a lower retention rate on the website or broadcasters that don't stream on a regular basis. It makes sense why you would suggest this. The best way for your viewers to monetize your content is direct donations which hurts Twitch if you don't play ads since they do the transcodes for your viewers. There are streamers that make thousands of dollars a month doing this.
Just figured out twitch is screwing over partnered streamers by A LOT.
$8.99 per month = One person watching roughly 3,000 ads per month.
When a person with turbo watches a stream, twitch only gives that partner one ad view.
Twitch is easily getting 2,000+ times more money than you receive from playing ads by using this system.
Twitch justifies this by saying, "The streamer wouldn't have earned money if the viewer used adblock, so this way we are actually making you money!!" which is true, but you're getting less than one percent of what twitch is receiving, per turbo subscriber.
But I love how everyone is saying "Support eSports! Get Turbo!!!" when actually it's not supporting eSports, it's supporting a greedy as fuck company that doesn't want to give their partnered streamers a slice of the profits.
On February 07 2013 05:01 SamanthaRain wrote: Just figured out twitch is screwing over partnered streamers by A LOT.
$8.99 per month = One person watching roughly 3,000 ads per month.
When a person with turbo watches a stream, twitch only gives that partner one ad view.
Twitch is easily getting 2,000+ times more money than you receive from playing ads by using this system.
Twitch justifies this by saying, "The streamer wouldn't have earned money if the viewer used adblock, so this way we are actually making you money!!" which is true, but you're getting less than one percent of what twitch is receiving, per turbo subscriber.
But I love how everyone is saying "Support eSports! Get Turbo!!!" when actually it's not supporting eSports, it's supporting a greedy as fuck company that doesn't want to give their partnered streamers a slice of the profits.
TheGunRun said each turbo user gives an impression per ad they would have normally seen. From the first page:
Broadcasters are paid on a per-impressions basis for ads. If a Turbo user would have seen an ad, it's recorded and the broadcaster is paid as if the user had been shown one.
On February 07 2013 05:01 SamanthaRain wrote: Just figured out twitch is screwing over partnered streamers by A LOT.
$8.99 per month = One person watching roughly 3,000 ads per month.
When a person with turbo watches a stream, twitch only gives that partner one ad view.
Twitch is easily getting 2,000+ times more money than you receive from playing ads by using this system.
Twitch justifies this by saying, "The streamer wouldn't have earned money if the viewer used adblock, so this way we are actually making you money!!" which is true, but you're getting less than one percent of what twitch is receiving, per turbo subscriber.
But I love how everyone is saying "Support eSports! Get Turbo!!!" when actually it's not supporting eSports, it's supporting a greedy as fuck company that doesn't want to give their partnered streamers a slice of the profits.
You dont seem to fully grasp the concept. They are not stealing any money from ad views - users still have the option to sign up for premium streams to support their favourite players. Think of it like a way to support the company who makes all of this possible, not so long ago we did not have free traffic to stream with bitrates in excess of 4 Megabits per second. Think of how much traffic even a few hundred viewers produce...
Nobody likes uncertainty - especially in business. They are trying to create a steady, more or less, dependable stream of income. If anything they are trying to tap into their viewerbase. While we do not know what they will do with said income one might imagine that these additional funds could be used as a buffer so streamers get paid sooner rather then later (as it is currently the case). As this becomes common practice more and more people might be intrigued by the idea to get into streaming which should lead to more competition and better content.
That being said i dont see any value in their current offering. If turbo subscribers would get a premium CDN feed that might be of value, especially to europeans who, in large parts, cannot watch high quality streams consistently.
Nobody likes uncertainty - especially in business. They are trying to create a steady, more or less, dependable stream of income. If anything they are trying to tap into their viewerbase. While we do not know what they will do with said income one might imagine that these additional funds could be used as a buffer so streamers get paid sooner rather then later (as it is currently the case). As this becomes common practice more and more people might be intrigued by the idea to get into streaming which should lead to more competition and better content.
That being said i dont see any value in their current offering. If turbo subscribers would get a premium CDN feed that might be of value, especially to europeans who, in large parts, cannot watch high quality streams consistently.
Pretty much this. I can't buy turbo. I just can not. With the current insanely laggy streams in Europe this is just not justified as a Quality option :/
On February 08 2013 01:16 Lash- wrote: Only time will tell us wether this is good or bad for them streamers
Why would it be good for them?
If a significant number of people that adblock buy turbo, it's great for streamers. Actually, it's great for 99.99% of the streamers regardless because they don't use subscribers. If it's a considerable number, then even the streamers with subscribers benefit.
On February 08 2013 01:16 Lash- wrote: Only time will tell us wether this is good or bad for them streamers
Why would it be good for them?
Twitch doesn't go out of business for one, so they will still see a paycheck. The same can't be said for other services. You can argue twitch needs them more than they need twitch at this point. Let's not forget though that streaming really only blew up when you could /commercial. All the content in the world doesn't matter if it doesn't have a reliable service.
On February 08 2013 01:16 Lash- wrote: Only time will tell us wether this is good or bad for them streamers
Why would it be good for them?
If a significant number of people that adblock buy turbo, it's great for streamers. Actually, it's great for 99.99% of the streamers regardless because they don't use subscribers. If it's a considerable number, then even the streamers with subscribers benefit.
That's true, I guess I didn't think of that. Turbo probably stops the ad from playing before adblock does, so it's a net gain in impressions for everybody.
On February 08 2013 01:34 Hrrrrm wrote: Twitch doesn't go out of business for one, so they will still see a paycheck. The same can't be said for other services. You can argue twitch needs them more than they need twitch at this point. Let's not forget though that streaming really only blew up when you could /commercial. All the content in the world doesn't matter if it doesn't have a reliable service.
Arguments like this bother me, and they fly in the face of what we know about capitalism. First of all, Twitch is not a dying company, they do not need this boost to carry on. Secondly, it is not clear that becoming more profitable will lead to improvements in the Twitch quality of service overall. Historically, it is more the opposite; when a company becomes profitable enough, they can cut corners because so many people are loyal to them. Thirdly, it is silly to worry about Twitch going out of business because if that happens, it's because a new service opened up and replaced them by providing a superior experience (like just happened to Own3d).
Basically, companies should exist on their merits alone, or else you're just creating a bubble and disincentivizing them to continue improving.
On February 06 2013 15:49 R1CH wrote: I'd love if I could assign some of that $9 to my favorite streamers, say $2-3 split between whichever streams I watch based on number of hours (or just manually assigned). Would feel like the perfect mix between channel subscriptions and turbo.
I think this would be a great idea if implemented.
On February 08 2013 14:59 ROOTdrewbie wrote: turbo is cool, although people are going to get turbo instead of subscribing to personal channels =[
I don't think so. If you subscribed to support a streamer, then you would still prefer to support that streamer. If you subscribed for the emoticons, you would still probably prefer to have the ones specific to the channel (I'm guessing. Can't quite say I understand someone who wants to pay a monthly subscription primarily for emoticons, but to each his own),. The only people that streamers lose out on are those who don't like adds enough to pay $5-$10 a month, yet have a moral objection to add blocker. I have to assume that is a rather small minority.
On February 08 2013 14:59 ROOTdrewbie wrote: turbo is cool, although people are going to get turbo instead of subscribing to personal channels =[
I don't think so. If you subscribed to support a streamer, then you would still prefer to support that streamer. If you subscribed for the emoticons, you would still probably prefer to have the ones specific to the channel (I'm guessing. Can't quite say I understand someone who wants to pay a monthly subscription primarily for emoticons, but to each his own),. The only people that streamers lose out on are those who don't like adds enough to pay $5-$10 a month, yet have a moral objection to add blocker. I have to assume that is a rather small minority.
I can see where you're coming from but i'm not sure that's going to be the case for all. I'm all for supporting broadcasters as much as possible but if you sub to every channel you want to support it can get expensive. A lot of viewers will be below the age of 18 so probably won't have a regular income so subbing to more than one channel isn't always easy so many viewers will chose to just pay the once to remove the ad's or continue to use adblocker.
I do not mind ads. I see it as a way for me to "pay" for watching something for free, and I will gladly do that. Things being free, is an important aspect for me, and I like to think I do my part in letting the world become as free as possible, by not buying things, I can get for free.
Adblock. It is free, it is legal, and from what I've heard and experienced, it appears to be safe software to use.
Twitch, and pro gamers, and websites, do not like adblock. They get paid by ad companies to put ads on their website, pro gamers get paid to play commercials to thousands of viewers. This is something we all know very well by now.
Ok, so how do you stop people from using a free and legal service? You offer a deal that people cant pass up. A deal that is so good, that it is worth paying for. Twitch Turbo does NOT even come close to accomplishing this. The whole thing (not much lol) boils down to an ad-free experience on twitch...that they want you to PAY for. If adblock is free and legal, and offers the exact same experience on twitch, give me 1 reason to not use it.
Not to mention adblock takes care of everything else on pretty much every other website, whereas my $9 ad-free subscription only covers twitch.
"Oh but you are hurting twitch and esports and the players and blah blahdy blardy". Sorry, but that's business; that is how the real world works. You go for the best possible, legal, solution. If twitch wants my money, give me something above and beyond what adblock gives me, and I can at least consider it. As of right now, they arent doing that.
On February 09 2013 02:30 ishyishy wrote: Adblock. It is free, it is legal, and from what I've heard and experienced, it appears to be safe software to use.
Twitch, and pro gamers, and websites, do not like adblock. They get paid by ad companies to put ads on their website, pro gamers get paid to play commercials to thousands of viewers. This is something we all know very well by now.
Ok, so how do you stop people from using a free and legal service? You offer a deal that people cant pass up. A deal that is so good, that it is worth paying for. Twitch Turbo does NOT even come close to accomplishing this. The whole thing (not much lol) boils down to an ad-free experience on twitch...that they want you to PAY for. If adblock is free and legal, and offers the exact same experience on twitch, give me 1 reason to not use it.
Not to mention adblock takes care of everything else on pretty much every other website, whereas my $9 ad-free subscription only covers twitch.
"Oh but you are hurting twitch and esports and the players and blah blahdy blardy". Sorry, but that's business; that is how the real world works. You go for the best possible, legal, solution. If twitch wants my money, give me something above and beyond what adblock gives me, and I can at least consider it. As of right now, they arent doing that.
A possible reply from Twitch would be to put up a paywall around content, reducing what is currently freely available.
Remember that the only way for Twitch to survive is to get viewers to watch adverts, or to get viewers to pay for the service.
On February 08 2013 01:16 Lash- wrote: Only time will tell us wether this is good or bad for them streamers
Why would it be good for them?
If a significant number of people that adblock buy turbo, it's great for streamers. Actually, it's great for 99.99% of the streamers regardless because they don't use subscribers. If it's a considerable number, then even the streamers with subscribers benefit.
Why would anyone that uses adblock anyway buy turbo?
On February 08 2013 01:16 Lash- wrote: Only time will tell us wether this is good or bad for them streamers
Why would it be good for them?
If a significant number of people that adblock buy turbo, it's great for streamers. Actually, it's great for 99.99% of the streamers regardless because they don't use subscribers. If it's a considerable number, then even the streamers with subscribers benefit.
Why would anyone that uses adblock anyway buy turbo?
On February 08 2013 01:16 Lash- wrote: Only time will tell us wether this is good or bad for them streamers
Why would it be good for them?
If a significant number of people that adblock buy turbo, it's great for streamers. Actually, it's great for 99.99% of the streamers regardless because they don't use subscribers. If it's a considerable number, then even the streamers with subscribers benefit.
Why would anyone that uses adblock anyway buy turbo?
To support the players/streamers.
Which is wishful thinking and will rarely happen and buying subscription to the channels will certainly help the streamers more than twitch turbo.
I use Adblock but I want to support the streamers that I regularly watch but previously couldn't afford to subscribe to every channel I wanted to, so this may be a great option for me, shame they don't have any other cool benefits though (Being able to have two streams side-by-side/top&bottom for example directly on Twitch would've been sick)
On February 08 2013 01:16 Lash- wrote: Only time will tell us wether this is good or bad for them streamers
Why would it be good for them?
If a significant number of people that adblock buy turbo, it's great for streamers. Actually, it's great for 99.99% of the streamers regardless because they don't use subscribers. If it's a considerable number, then even the streamers with subscribers benefit.
Why would anyone that uses adblock anyway buy turbo?
To support the players/streamers.
Which is wishful thinking and will rarely happen and buying subscription to the channels will certainly help the streamers more than twitch turbo.
Buying multiple subscriptions is costly, likely outside of the budget of many people. Turbo is more reasonable for many.
You can say it's wishful thinking, but I adblocked and now have turbo. Surely I'm not the only one.
On February 09 2013 23:14 Fingerpin wrote: The 10 dollars for Twitch Turbo goes to Twitch only. The streamers do not get a cut from that pot.
You do not support the streamers buying turbo, you're supporting Twitch. It's important that people understands this.
Except if you were previously adblocking, in which case, you're now giving the streamers ad-revenue they weren't getting previously and supporting the streamers. It's important to think things through and not misrepresent things.
Streamers get money when a turbo user has adblock and watches the channel. The streamer supposedly gets the money from the ad they would have seen otherwise.
Or at least I think thats what people are assuming
On February 09 2013 23:14 Fingerpin wrote: The 10 dollars for Twitch Turbo goes to Twitch only. The streamers do not get a cut from that pot.
You do not support the streamers buying turbo, you're supporting Twitch. It's important that people understands this.
Except if you were previously adblocking, in which case, you're now giving the streamers ad-revenue they weren't getting previously and supporting the streamers. It's important to think things through and not misrepresent things.
You're right but that level of 'support' is negligible. It's like really, really, really not even worth considering.
On February 09 2013 23:14 Fingerpin wrote: The 10 dollars for Twitch Turbo goes to Twitch only. The streamers do not get a cut from that pot.
You do not support the streamers buying turbo, you're supporting Twitch. It's important that people understands this.
Except if you were previously adblocking, in which case, you're now giving the streamers ad-revenue they weren't getting previously and supporting the streamers. It's important to think things through and not misrepresent things.
You're right but that level of 'support' is negligible. It's like really, really, really not even worth considering.
You know how much money adblock costs us? It's a huge chunk. If even just 1% of the people adblocking would have turbo, we'd feel it.
On February 09 2013 23:14 Fingerpin wrote: The 10 dollars for Twitch Turbo goes to Twitch only. The streamers do not get a cut from that pot.
You do not support the streamers buying turbo, you're supporting Twitch. It's important that people understands this.
Except if you were previously adblocking, in which case, you're now giving the streamers ad-revenue they weren't getting previously and supporting the streamers. It's important to think things through and not misrepresent things.
You're right but that level of 'support' is negligible. It's like really, really, really not even worth considering.
You know how much money adblock costs us? It's a huge chunk. If even just 1% of the people adblocking would have turbo, we'd feel it.
Maybe, but it's still worse than 0.01% of those people subscribing to your channel.
On February 09 2013 23:14 Fingerpin wrote: The 10 dollars for Twitch Turbo goes to Twitch only. The streamers do not get a cut from that pot.
You do not support the streamers buying turbo, you're supporting Twitch. It's important that people understands this.
Except if you were previously adblocking, in which case, you're now giving the streamers ad-revenue they weren't getting previously and supporting the streamers. It's important to think things through and not misrepresent things.
You're right but that level of 'support' is negligible. It's like really, really, really not even worth considering.
You know how much money adblock costs us? It's a huge chunk. If even just 1% of the people adblocking would have turbo, we'd feel it.
Maybe, but it's still worse than 0.01% of those people subscribing to your channel.
Good thing a majority of streamers didn't use subscriptions. Most big events don't either.
On February 09 2013 23:14 Fingerpin wrote: The 10 dollars for Twitch Turbo goes to Twitch only. The streamers do not get a cut from that pot.
You do not support the streamers buying turbo, you're supporting Twitch. It's important that people understands this.
Except if you were previously adblocking, in which case, you're now giving the streamers ad-revenue they weren't getting previously and supporting the streamers. It's important to think things through and not misrepresent things.
You're right but that level of 'support' is negligible. It's like really, really, really not even worth considering.
You know how much money adblock costs us? It's a huge chunk. If even just 1% of the people adblocking would have turbo, we'd feel it.
Maybe, but it's still worse than 0.01% of those people subscribing to your channel.
Good thing a majority of streamers didn't use subscriptions. Most big events don't either.
It's still true that buying Turbo does not support the streamers in any way. If you are using adblock and you want to support the streamers, you could just turn off adblock. Buying Turbo is a second option but none of that money benefits your favorite streamers. You can make the case that Turbo is a net positive for stream income and I won't argue with you, but that doesn't change the fact that Twitch could have implemented it in a way where more money goes to the streamers, but instead chose the greediest possible route.
On February 09 2013 23:14 Fingerpin wrote: The 10 dollars for Twitch Turbo goes to Twitch only. The streamers do not get a cut from that pot.
You do not support the streamers buying turbo, you're supporting Twitch. It's important that people understands this.
Except if you were previously adblocking, in which case, you're now giving the streamers ad-revenue they weren't getting previously and supporting the streamers. It's important to think things through and not misrepresent things.
You're right but that level of 'support' is negligible. It's like really, really, really not even worth considering.
You know how much money adblock costs us? It's a huge chunk. If even just 1% of the people adblocking would have turbo, we'd feel it.
Maybe, but it's still worse than 0.01% of those people subscribing to your channel.
Good thing a majority of streamers didn't use subscriptions. Most big events don't either.
It's still true that buying Turbo does not support the streamers in any way. If you are using adblock and you want to support the streamers, you could just turn off adblock. Buying Turbo is a second option but none of that money benefits your favorite streamers. You can make the case that Turbo is a net positive for stream income and I won't argue with you, but that doesn't change the fact that Twitch could have implemented it in a way where more money goes to the streamers, but instead chose the greediest possible route.
Turbo gives ad revenue to streamers even from people with ad block. This means streamers get more money, and supports the streamers. What you're arguing is purely semantics. It doesn't really matter how the money gets to the streamers, just that it does.
On February 09 2013 23:14 Fingerpin wrote: The 10 dollars for Twitch Turbo goes to Twitch only. The streamers do not get a cut from that pot.
You do not support the streamers buying turbo, you're supporting Twitch. It's important that people understands this.
Except if you were previously adblocking, in which case, you're now giving the streamers ad-revenue they weren't getting previously and supporting the streamers. It's important to think things through and not misrepresent things.
You're right but that level of 'support' is negligible. It's like really, really, really not even worth considering.
You know how much money adblock costs us? It's a huge chunk. If even just 1% of the people adblocking would have turbo, we'd feel it.
Maybe, but it's still worse than 0.01% of those people subscribing to your channel.
Good thing a majority of streamers didn't use subscriptions. Most big events don't either.
It's still true that buying Turbo does not support the streamers in any way. If you are using adblock and you want to support the streamers, you could just turn off adblock. Buying Turbo is a second option but none of that money benefits your favorite streamers. You can make the case that Turbo is a net positive for stream income and I won't argue with you, but that doesn't change the fact that Twitch could have implemented it in a way where more money goes to the streamers, but instead chose the greediest possible route.
Turbo gives ad revenue to streamers even from people with ad block. This means streamers get more money, and supports the streamers. What you're arguing is purely semantics. It doesn't really matter how the money gets to the streamers, just that it does.
That's nonsense. I'm arguing that Twitch could have implemented something like a referral program, where users can sign up for Turbo through a streamer's page, and that streamer gets 10% of the monthly revenue. This would give incentive for streamers to plug Turbo, as opposed to the way it is now where it is merely a burden on streamers with subscription bases. The only reason Twitch wouldn't consider something like this is because they no longer have any competition.
Your statement that buying Turbo supports the streamers is completely false, it doesn't support the streamers in any capacity beyond what you could've done if you simply disabled Adblock for their stream.
And by the way, you have absolutely no evidence that this is even going to bring streamers more revenue overall. It is most likely going to be a negligible gain for most streamers and a massive hit for a few. I personally believe that the net loss will outweigh the gain, but again, nobody really knows for sure.
There are people who think this is a good thing lol.
Athene was right. Because we destroyed own3d twitch now has a sort of monopoly which is always a bad thing, no exceptions. Even if you think this update causes no harm, you will see updates that u will agree are bad aswell.
On February 09 2013 23:14 Fingerpin wrote: The 10 dollars for Twitch Turbo goes to Twitch only. The streamers do not get a cut from that pot.
You do not support the streamers buying turbo, you're supporting Twitch. It's important that people understands this.
Except if you were previously adblocking, in which case, you're now giving the streamers ad-revenue they weren't getting previously and supporting the streamers. It's important to think things through and not misrepresent things.
You're right but that level of 'support' is negligible. It's like really, really, really not even worth considering.
You know how much money adblock costs us? It's a huge chunk. If even just 1% of the people adblocking would have turbo, we'd feel it.
Maybe, but it's still worse than 0.01% of those people subscribing to your channel.
Good thing a majority of streamers didn't use subscriptions. Most big events don't either.
It's still true that buying Turbo does not support the streamers in any way. If you are using adblock and you want to support the streamers, you could just turn off adblock. Buying Turbo is a second option but none of that money benefits your favorite streamers. You can make the case that Turbo is a net positive for stream income and I won't argue with you, but that doesn't change the fact that Twitch could have implemented it in a way where more money goes to the streamers, but instead chose the greediest possible route.
Turbo gives ad revenue to streamers even from people with ad block. This means streamers get more money, and supports the streamers. What you're arguing is purely semantics. It doesn't really matter how the money gets to the streamers, just that it does.
Your statement that buying Turbo supports the streamers is completely false, it doesn't support the streamers in any capacity beyond what you could've done if you simply disabled Adblock for their stream.
But if you disable adblock you will have ads.
Getting turbo will support the streamers, and you wont see ads. I watch tons of streams so subbing for them all is not an option. Turbo is a great choice for me and people like me.
On February 05 2013 01:57 Al Bundy wrote: Gotta love the fact that we have to PAY in order to NOT watch ads. Feels like i'm in business with the Mafia here
Mafia, what? They aren't going to break your kneecaps if you don't pay. This is a pretty regular way of monetizing things.
Well, that's not a very honest way to do business if you ask me. Back in the days, when people wanted to avoid ads, they simply switched channels. Anyway, there are a lot of foolish people on the internet who are willing to pay for stuff they can get for free, so GLHF to twitch.
The back in the day attitude is what holds back innovation. Freemium is much more beneficial to a growing scene than a paywall. See MLG Arenas.
The real ''innovation" would be to broadcast tournaments on an actual TV channel, like the koreans do. There, ads make perfect sense.
You're trolling, right? Nobody can actually be this stupid.
How do ads somehow make more sense on a TV channel than on a stream? In either case they're providing you the same content and during the breaks they advertise their sponsors. It's a win-win-win, you get your tournaments, the companies running them don't go broke, and the sponsors get to advertise.
On February 09 2013 23:14 Fingerpin wrote: The 10 dollars for Twitch Turbo goes to Twitch only. The streamers do not get a cut from that pot.
You do not support the streamers buying turbo, you're supporting Twitch. It's important that people understands this.
Except if you were previously adblocking, in which case, you're now giving the streamers ad-revenue they weren't getting previously and supporting the streamers. It's important to think things through and not misrepresent things.
You're right but that level of 'support' is negligible. It's like really, really, really not even worth considering.
You know how much money adblock costs us? It's a huge chunk. If even just 1% of the people adblocking would have turbo, we'd feel it.
Maybe, but it's still worse than 0.01% of those people subscribing to your channel.
Good thing a majority of streamers didn't use subscriptions. Most big events don't either.
It's still true that buying Turbo does not support the streamers in any way. If you are using adblock and you want to support the streamers, you could just turn off adblock. Buying Turbo is a second option but none of that money benefits your favorite streamers. You can make the case that Turbo is a net positive for stream income and I won't argue with you, but that doesn't change the fact that Twitch could have implemented it in a way where more money goes to the streamers, but instead chose the greediest possible route.
Turbo gives ad revenue to streamers even from people with ad block. This means streamers get more money, and supports the streamers. What you're arguing is purely semantics. It doesn't really matter how the money gets to the streamers, just that it does.
That's nonsense. I'm arguing that Twitch could have implemented something like a referral program, where users can sign up for Turbo through a streamer's page, and that streamer gets 10% of the monthly revenue. This would give incentive for streamers to plug Turbo, as opposed to the way it is now where it is merely a burden on streamers with subscription bases. The only reason Twitch wouldn't consider something like this is because they no longer have any competition.
Your statement that buying Turbo supports the streamers is completely false, it doesn't support the streamers in any capacity beyond what you could've done if you simply disabled Adblock for their stream.
And by the way, you have absolutely no evidence that this is even going to bring streamers more revenue overall. It is most likely going to be a negligible gain for most streamers and a massive hit for a few. I personally believe that the net loss will outweigh the gain, but again, nobody really knows for sure.
"Your statement..is completely false." "it doesn't support the streamers in any capacity" "beyond if you simply disabled Adblock"
You can't make an absolute statement and then follow it up with the reason it's wrong. You're saying, and I quote "Turbo does not support the streamers in any way". In any way. Yet it's quite obvious that for people that don't want ads and still feel streamers should get revenue from their viewership, this is a perfectly fine option.
We can argue the benefits of Turbo. We can argue about whether there's enough value to convince enough people. We can argue about whether the revenue from previous adblockers makes up for lost subscriptions. But you can't argue that it doesn't support streamers at all, because that's simply not true. You yourself have implied as much.
On February 10 2013 19:10 Sea_Food wrote: There are people who think this is a good thing lol.
Athene was right. Because we destroyed own3d twitch now has a sort of monopoly which is always a bad thing, no exceptions. Even if you think this update causes no harm, you will see updates that u will agree are bad aswell.
On February 09 2013 23:14 Fingerpin wrote: The 10 dollars for Twitch Turbo goes to Twitch only. The streamers do not get a cut from that pot.
You do not support the streamers buying turbo, you're supporting Twitch. It's important that people understands this.
Except if you were previously adblocking, in which case, you're now giving the streamers ad-revenue they weren't getting previously and supporting the streamers. It's important to think things through and not misrepresent things.
You're right but that level of 'support' is negligible. It's like really, really, really not even worth considering.
You know how much money adblock costs us? It's a huge chunk. If even just 1% of the people adblocking would have turbo, we'd feel it.
Maybe, but it's still worse than 0.01% of those people subscribing to your channel.
Good thing a majority of streamers didn't use subscriptions. Most big events don't either.
It's still true that buying Turbo does not support the streamers in any way. If you are using adblock and you want to support the streamers, you could just turn off adblock. Buying Turbo is a second option but none of that money benefits your favorite streamers. You can make the case that Turbo is a net positive for stream income and I won't argue with you, but that doesn't change the fact that Twitch could have implemented it in a way where more money goes to the streamers, but instead chose the greediest possible route.
Turbo gives ad revenue to streamers even from people with ad block. This means streamers get more money, and supports the streamers. What you're arguing is purely semantics. It doesn't really matter how the money gets to the streamers, just that it does.
That's nonsense. I'm arguing that Twitch could have implemented something like a referral program, where users can sign up for Turbo through a streamer's page, and that streamer gets 10% of the monthly revenue. This would give incentive for streamers to plug Turbo, as opposed to the way it is now where it is merely a burden on streamers with subscription bases. The only reason Twitch wouldn't consider something like this is because they no longer have any competition.
Your statement that buying Turbo supports the streamers is completely false, it doesn't support the streamers in any capacity beyond what you could've done if you simply disabled Adblock for their stream.
And by the way, you have absolutely no evidence that this is even going to bring streamers more revenue overall. It is most likely going to be a negligible gain for most streamers and a massive hit for a few. I personally believe that the net loss will outweigh the gain, but again, nobody really knows for sure.
"Your statement..is completely false." "it doesn't support the streamers in any capacity" "beyond if you simply disabled Adblock"
You can't make an absolute statement and then follow it up with the reason it's wrong. You're saying, and I quote "Turbo does not support the streamers in any way". In any way. Yet it's quite obvious that for people that don't want ads and still feel streamers should get revenue from their viewership, this is a perfectly fine option.
We can argue the benefits of Turbo. We can argue about whether there's enough value to convince enough people. We can argue about whether the revenue from previous adblockers makes up for lost subscriptions. But you can't argue that it doesn't support streamers at all, because that's simply not true. You yourself have implied as much.
If you keep Adblock on and donate $1 to any streamer, you are supporting streamers much more than if you pay $8.99 for Turbo. It's depressing to hear about people who used Adblock and have now switched to Turbo to clear their conscience, because they don't realize how badly Twitch is shafting its streamers with this system. Twitch is guilt tripping them into believing Turbo is the best solution to not see ads+still give money to streamers, and that is simply far from the truth.
And no, nothing you have said indicates that Turbo supports the streamers. Disabling adblock supports the streamers. Turbo allows you to disable adblock without seeing ads. It's perhaps the single positive benefit that Turbo creates, and there are also many negative ones which you are choosing not to weigh in the statement that "Turbo supports the streamers".
On February 08 2013 01:16 Lash- wrote: Only time will tell us wether this is good or bad for them streamers
Why would it be good for them?
If a significant number of people that adblock buy turbo, it's great for streamers. Actually, it's great for 99.99% of the streamers regardless because they don't use subscribers. If it's a considerable number, then even the streamers with subscribers benefit.
Why would anyone that uses adblock anyway buy turbo?
To support the players/streamers.
Which is wishful thinking and will rarely happen and buying subscription to the channels will certainly help the streamers more than twitch turbo.
Buying multiple subscriptions is costly, likely outside of the budget of many people. Turbo is more reasonable for many.
You can say it's wishful thinking, but I adblocked and now have turbo. Surely I'm not the only one.
And you really think it's going to be the same for the streamers? less money flowing so less money will go to the streamers. This turbo is something that will only work with a higher volume, and it's what they are trying, to sell in huge volumes. But looking at the actual benefits and poor marketing of this new initiative I don't think that will happen.
Except if you were previously adblocking, in which case, you're now giving the streamers ad-revenue they weren't getting previously and supporting the streamers. It's important to think things through and not misrepresent things.
You're right but that level of 'support' is negligible. It's like really, really, really not even worth considering.
You know how much money adblock costs us? It's a huge chunk. If even just 1% of the people adblocking would have turbo, we'd feel it.
Maybe, but it's still worse than 0.01% of those people subscribing to your channel.
Good thing a majority of streamers didn't use subscriptions. Most big events don't either.
It's still true that buying Turbo does not support the streamers in any way. If you are using adblock and you want to support the streamers, you could just turn off adblock. Buying Turbo is a second option but none of that money benefits your favorite streamers. You can make the case that Turbo is a net positive for stream income and I won't argue with you, but that doesn't change the fact that Twitch could have implemented it in a way where more money goes to the streamers, but instead chose the greediest possible route.
Turbo gives ad revenue to streamers even from people with ad block. This means streamers get more money, and supports the streamers. What you're arguing is purely semantics. It doesn't really matter how the money gets to the streamers, just that it does.
That's nonsense. I'm arguing that Twitch could have implemented something like a referral program, where users can sign up for Turbo through a streamer's page, and that streamer gets 10% of the monthly revenue. This would give incentive for streamers to plug Turbo, as opposed to the way it is now where it is merely a burden on streamers with subscription bases. The only reason Twitch wouldn't consider something like this is because they no longer have any competition.
Your statement that buying Turbo supports the streamers is completely false, it doesn't support the streamers in any capacity beyond what you could've done if you simply disabled Adblock for their stream.
And by the way, you have absolutely no evidence that this is even going to bring streamers more revenue overall. It is most likely going to be a negligible gain for most streamers and a massive hit for a few. I personally believe that the net loss will outweigh the gain, but again, nobody really knows for sure.
"Your statement..is completely false." "it doesn't support the streamers in any capacity" "beyond if you simply disabled Adblock"
You can't make an absolute statement and then follow it up with the reason it's wrong. You're saying, and I quote "Turbo does not support the streamers in any way". In any way. Yet it's quite obvious that for people that don't want ads and still feel streamers should get revenue from their viewership, this is a perfectly fine option.
We can argue the benefits of Turbo. We can argue about whether there's enough value to convince enough people. We can argue about whether the revenue from previous adblockers makes up for lost subscriptions. But you can't argue that it doesn't support streamers at all, because that's simply not true. You yourself have implied as much.
If you keep Adblock on and donate $1 to any streamer, you are supporting streamers much more than if you pay $8.99 for Turbo. It's depressing to hear about people who used Adblock and have now switched to Turbo to clear their conscience, because they don't realize how badly Twitch is shafting its streamers with this system. Twitch is guilt tripping them into believing Turbo is the best solution to not see ads+still give money to streamers, and that is simply far from the truth.
And no, nothing you have said indicates that Turbo supports the streamers. Disabling adblock supports the streamers. Turbo allows you to disable adblock without seeing ads. It's perhaps the single positive benefit that Turbo creates, and there are also many negative ones which you are choosing not to weigh in the statement that "Turbo supports the streamers".
Yes, donating $1 to any streamer I watch would support them more than buying turbo. With the amount of different streams I watch that is however absolutely unrealistic and unreasonable. Think for a second how many different streams a lot of us pass by during a whole month.
But even then that is completely besides the point. That's the degree to which you support the streamers. If you want to say that direct subscriptions support streamers more, that's an argument you can make and we'd have to check the numbers to see where it ends up overall. You can't say something doesn't support streamers and then say "this supports them more" which inherently implies that it does support streamers.
Turbo isn't for everyone and doesn't benefit everyone equally. People that use subscriptions, people that only depend on a group of regular viewers that will buy subscriptions and that don't get many irregular viewers will more than likely see a decrease. But for every streamer that doesn't use subscriptions and that depends on viewers that tune in occasionally and wouldn't buy subscription this is very beneficial.
I never said we can't argue about whether the benefit outweighs the cost, seeming no one has the numbers, that's a fair point to debate. You however can't in one breath say Turbo doesn't support streamers and argue about how much Turbo supports streamers.
On February 08 2013 01:16 Lash- wrote: Only time will tell us wether this is good or bad for them streamers
Why would it be good for them?
If a significant number of people that adblock buy turbo, it's great for streamers. Actually, it's great for 99.99% of the streamers regardless because they don't use subscribers. If it's a considerable number, then even the streamers with subscribers benefit.
Why would anyone that uses adblock anyway buy turbo?
To support the players/streamers.
Which is wishful thinking and will rarely happen and buying subscription to the channels will certainly help the streamers more than twitch turbo.
Buying multiple subscriptions is costly, likely outside of the budget of many people. Turbo is more reasonable for many.
You can say it's wishful thinking, but I adblocked and now have turbo. Surely I'm not the only one.
And you really think it's going to be the same for the streamers? less money flowing so less money will go to the streamers. This turbo is something that will only work with a higher volume, and it's what they are trying, to sell in huge volumes. But looking at the actual benefits and poor marketing of this new initiative I don't think that will happen.
I know that regardless of what event I'm streaming, be it IEM or DH or whatever, every person that normally uses adblock and also has Turbo is one extra impression. So obviously, the more of those, the better for me as a streamer. People saying it doesn't support streamers, discouraging others from getting it, and telling people to just keep using adblock as such have a negative effect on me as a streamer.
Except if you were previously adblocking, in which case, you're now giving the streamers ad-revenue they weren't getting previously and supporting the streamers. It's important to think things through and not misrepresent things.
You're right but that level of 'support' is negligible. It's like really, really, really not even worth considering.
You know how much money adblock costs us? It's a huge chunk. If even just 1% of the people adblocking would have turbo, we'd feel it.
Maybe, but it's still worse than 0.01% of those people subscribing to your channel.
Good thing a majority of streamers didn't use subscriptions. Most big events don't either.
It's still true that buying Turbo does not support the streamers in any way. If you are using adblock and you want to support the streamers, you could just turn off adblock. Buying Turbo is a second option but none of that money benefits your favorite streamers. You can make the case that Turbo is a net positive for stream income and I won't argue with you, but that doesn't change the fact that Twitch could have implemented it in a way where more money goes to the streamers, but instead chose the greediest possible route.
Turbo gives ad revenue to streamers even from people with ad block. This means streamers get more money, and supports the streamers. What you're arguing is purely semantics. It doesn't really matter how the money gets to the streamers, just that it does.
That's nonsense. I'm arguing that Twitch could have implemented something like a referral program, where users can sign up for Turbo through a streamer's page, and that streamer gets 10% of the monthly revenue. This would give incentive for streamers to plug Turbo, as opposed to the way it is now where it is merely a burden on streamers with subscription bases. The only reason Twitch wouldn't consider something like this is because they no longer have any competition.
Your statement that buying Turbo supports the streamers is completely false, it doesn't support the streamers in any capacity beyond what you could've done if you simply disabled Adblock for their stream.
And by the way, you have absolutely no evidence that this is even going to bring streamers more revenue overall. It is most likely going to be a negligible gain for most streamers and a massive hit for a few. I personally believe that the net loss will outweigh the gain, but again, nobody really knows for sure.
"Your statement..is completely false." "it doesn't support the streamers in any capacity" "beyond if you simply disabled Adblock"
You can't make an absolute statement and then follow it up with the reason it's wrong. You're saying, and I quote "Turbo does not support the streamers in any way". In any way. Yet it's quite obvious that for people that don't want ads and still feel streamers should get revenue from their viewership, this is a perfectly fine option.
We can argue the benefits of Turbo. We can argue about whether there's enough value to convince enough people. We can argue about whether the revenue from previous adblockers makes up for lost subscriptions. But you can't argue that it doesn't support streamers at all, because that's simply not true. You yourself have implied as much.
"If you keep Adblock on and donate $1 to any streamer, you are supporting streamers much more than if you pay $8.99 for Turbo. "
"Disabling adblock supports the streamers. "
"there are also many negative ones which you are choosing not to weigh in the statement"
-So Im supposed to give $1 to every stream I watch?
-For the streamer, me using Turbo is exactly the same as me disabling adblock.
You're right but that level of 'support' is negligible. It's like really, really, really not even worth considering.
You know how much money adblock costs us? It's a huge chunk. If even just 1% of the people adblocking would have turbo, we'd feel it.
Maybe, but it's still worse than 0.01% of those people subscribing to your channel.
Good thing a majority of streamers didn't use subscriptions. Most big events don't either.
It's still true that buying Turbo does not support the streamers in any way. If you are using adblock and you want to support the streamers, you could just turn off adblock. Buying Turbo is a second option but none of that money benefits your favorite streamers. You can make the case that Turbo is a net positive for stream income and I won't argue with you, but that doesn't change the fact that Twitch could have implemented it in a way where more money goes to the streamers, but instead chose the greediest possible route.
Turbo gives ad revenue to streamers even from people with ad block. This means streamers get more money, and supports the streamers. What you're arguing is purely semantics. It doesn't really matter how the money gets to the streamers, just that it does.
That's nonsense. I'm arguing that Twitch could have implemented something like a referral program, where users can sign up for Turbo through a streamer's page, and that streamer gets 10% of the monthly revenue. This would give incentive for streamers to plug Turbo, as opposed to the way it is now where it is merely a burden on streamers with subscription bases. The only reason Twitch wouldn't consider something like this is because they no longer have any competition.
Your statement that buying Turbo supports the streamers is completely false, it doesn't support the streamers in any capacity beyond what you could've done if you simply disabled Adblock for their stream.
And by the way, you have absolutely no evidence that this is even going to bring streamers more revenue overall. It is most likely going to be a negligible gain for most streamers and a massive hit for a few. I personally believe that the net loss will outweigh the gain, but again, nobody really knows for sure.
"Your statement..is completely false." "it doesn't support the streamers in any capacity" "beyond if you simply disabled Adblock"
You can't make an absolute statement and then follow it up with the reason it's wrong. You're saying, and I quote "Turbo does not support the streamers in any way". In any way. Yet it's quite obvious that for people that don't want ads and still feel streamers should get revenue from their viewership, this is a perfectly fine option.
We can argue the benefits of Turbo. We can argue about whether there's enough value to convince enough people. We can argue about whether the revenue from previous adblockers makes up for lost subscriptions. But you can't argue that it doesn't support streamers at all, because that's simply not true. You yourself have implied as much.
"If you keep Adblock on and donate $1 to any streamer, you are supporting streamers much more than if you pay $8.99 for Turbo. "
"Disabling adblock supports the streamers. "
"there are also many negative ones which you are choosing not to weigh in the statement"
-So Im supposed to give $1 to every stream I watch?
-For the streamer, me using Turbo is exactly the same as me disabling adblock.
-What negative things?
No, you're supposed to give $1 to any streamer, your favorite streamer. Nobody watches $1 worth of commercials per month unless they're watching multiple streams all day every day. It's better to support streamers by donating anything to them directly than subscribing to Turbo, and that's the main problem. Most viewers don't understand this and the Turbo cost comes out of their direct donation budget.
You know how much money adblock costs us? It's a huge chunk. If even just 1% of the people adblocking would have turbo, we'd feel it.
Maybe, but it's still worse than 0.01% of those people subscribing to your channel.
Good thing a majority of streamers didn't use subscriptions. Most big events don't either.
It's still true that buying Turbo does not support the streamers in any way. If you are using adblock and you want to support the streamers, you could just turn off adblock. Buying Turbo is a second option but none of that money benefits your favorite streamers. You can make the case that Turbo is a net positive for stream income and I won't argue with you, but that doesn't change the fact that Twitch could have implemented it in a way where more money goes to the streamers, but instead chose the greediest possible route.
Turbo gives ad revenue to streamers even from people with ad block. This means streamers get more money, and supports the streamers. What you're arguing is purely semantics. It doesn't really matter how the money gets to the streamers, just that it does.
That's nonsense. I'm arguing that Twitch could have implemented something like a referral program, where users can sign up for Turbo through a streamer's page, and that streamer gets 10% of the monthly revenue. This would give incentive for streamers to plug Turbo, as opposed to the way it is now where it is merely a burden on streamers with subscription bases. The only reason Twitch wouldn't consider something like this is because they no longer have any competition.
Your statement that buying Turbo supports the streamers is completely false, it doesn't support the streamers in any capacity beyond what you could've done if you simply disabled Adblock for their stream.
And by the way, you have absolutely no evidence that this is even going to bring streamers more revenue overall. It is most likely going to be a negligible gain for most streamers and a massive hit for a few. I personally believe that the net loss will outweigh the gain, but again, nobody really knows for sure.
"Your statement..is completely false." "it doesn't support the streamers in any capacity" "beyond if you simply disabled Adblock"
You can't make an absolute statement and then follow it up with the reason it's wrong. You're saying, and I quote "Turbo does not support the streamers in any way". In any way. Yet it's quite obvious that for people that don't want ads and still feel streamers should get revenue from their viewership, this is a perfectly fine option.
We can argue the benefits of Turbo. We can argue about whether there's enough value to convince enough people. We can argue about whether the revenue from previous adblockers makes up for lost subscriptions. But you can't argue that it doesn't support streamers at all, because that's simply not true. You yourself have implied as much.
"If you keep Adblock on and donate $1 to any streamer, you are supporting streamers much more than if you pay $8.99 for Turbo. "
"Disabling adblock supports the streamers. "
"there are also many negative ones which you are choosing not to weigh in the statement"
-So Im supposed to give $1 to every stream I watch?
-For the streamer, me using Turbo is exactly the same as me disabling adblock.
-What negative things?
No, you're supposed to give $1 to any streamer, your favorite streamer. Nobody watches $1 worth of commercials per month unless they're watching multiple streams all day every day. It's better to support streamers by donating anything to them directly than subscribing to Turbo, and that's the main problem. Most viewers don't understand this and the Turbo cost comes out of their direct donation budget.
So why reward 1 streamer instead of the many different ones I watch? How is that fair to tournaments that run one weekend every few months, or how is that fair to the little guy that people tune into irregularly?
Of course sending money directly is more efficient. Adopting a kitten from the street is also more efficient than paying some charity that takes care of street animals. There's overhead, expenses. Yeah everyone could adblock and use direct donations to by-pass twitch completely, but how long before it goes the way of own3d then?
Like you said "turning off adblock is a way to support streamers", buying Turbo supports streamers equivalently and you don't have to watch ads.
I think you're both arguing from different perspective (semantics). What Celerity seems to mean that turbo does not support the streamer in any meaningful way, and so far I seem to agree. If you reduce the subscription numbers of streamers because turbo becomes more favorable, it would be nigh impossible for the vast majority of streamers to recoup such losses just by having your turbo viewers leave impressions.
Let's do some very rudimentary, basic math, yes?
If a previously subscribed person joins turbo instead it would result in -$2.50/month for that previously subscribed stream. (I believe streamers get 50% of sub fee, might be wrong).
To make up that $2.50 from just that 1 subscriper switching, that turbo user would have to leave between ~1,000-2,500 impressions on that individuals stream, per month. That, to say the least, that isn't going to happen. In fact, that user won't leave 1,000 to 2,500 impressions on all of twitch.tv per month, so the end result for streamers will be a loss, but for twitch (8.99month) a net gain.
I understand ad-block cuts into profits quite significantly when you look at the community as a whole but the 'turbo' impressions have absolutely no chance to make a significant impact on streamer income and if the turbo features cause individual streamers to lose just a handful of subscribers, it would be down right devastating and an unrecoupable loss for MOST streamers.
So while the turbo users may 'help' those streamers you watch that you would never sub because you're giving impressions, the assistance is negligible where the fallout (potential lost subscribers to streamers) results in a net loss for the streamers on twitch. The numbers just don't addup for it to be a net gain for streamers. However, it will be a huge net gain for twitch.tv.
On February 12 2013 07:19 crms wrote: I think you're both arguing from different perspective (semantics). What Celerity seems to mean that turbo does not support the streamer in any meaningful way, and so far I seem to agree. If you reduce the subscription numbers of streamers because turbo becomes more favorable, it would be nigh impossible for the vast majority of streamers to recoup such losses just by having your turbo viewers leave impressions.
Let's do some very rudimentary, basic math, yes?
If a previously subscribed person joins turbo instead it would result in -$2.50/month for that previously subscribed stream. (I believe streamers get 50% of sub fee, might be wrong).
To make up that $2.50 from just that 1 subscriper switching, that turbo user would have to leave between ~1,000-2,500 impressions on that individuals stream, per month. That, to say the least, that isn't going to happen. In fact, that user won't leave 1,000 to 2,500 impressions on all of twitch.tv per month, so the end result for streamers will be a loss, but for twitch (8.99month) a net gain.
I understand ad-block cuts into profits quite significantly when you look at the community as a whole but the 'turbo' impressions have absolutely no chance to make a significant impact on streamer income and if the turbo features cause individual streamers to lose just a handful of subscribers, it would be down right devastating and an unrecoupable loss for MOST streamers.
So while the turbo users may 'help' those streamers you watch that you would never sub because you're giving impressions, the assistance is negligible where the fallout (potential lost subscribers to streamers) results in a net loss for the streamers on twitch. The numbers just don't addup for it to be a net gain for streamers. However, it will be a huge net gain for twitch.tv.
On February 12 2013 07:19 crms wrote: I think you're both arguing from different perspective (semantics). What Celerity seems to mean that turbo does not support the streamer in any meaningful way, and so far I seem to agree. If you reduce the subscription numbers of streamers because turbo becomes more favorable, it would be nigh impossible for the vast majority of streamers to recoup such losses just by having your turbo viewers leave impressions.
Let's do some very rudimentary, basic math, yes?
If a previously subscribed person joins turbo instead it would result in -$2.50/month for that previously subscribed stream. (I believe streamers get 50% of sub fee, might be wrong).
To make up that $2.50 from just that 1 subscriper switching, that turbo user would have to leave between ~1,000-2,500 impressions on that individuals stream, per month. That, to say the least, that isn't going to happen. In fact, that user won't leave 1,000 to 2,500 impressions on all of twitch.tv per month, so the end result for streamers will be a loss, but for twitch (8.99month) a net gain.
I understand ad-block cuts into profits quite significantly when you look at the community as a whole but the 'turbo' impressions have absolutely no chance to make a significant impact on streamer income and if the turbo features cause individual streamers to lose just a handful of subscribers, it would be down right devastating and an unrecoupable loss for MOST streamers.
So while the turbo users may 'help' those streamers you watch that you would never sub because you're giving impressions, the assistance is negligible where the fallout (potential lost subscribers to streamers) results in a net loss for the streamers on twitch. The numbers just don't addup for it to be a net gain for streamers. However, it will be a huge net gain for twitch.tv.
Doesn't your math only hold true for subscribers?
Yes, in that example it was 1 previous subscriber who switched to Turbo. However, I went on to point out how even those users that NEVER subscribed but are now Turbo users, would offer next to nothing to the personal streamers but would end up being a windfall for Twitch. A Turbo user would have to leave ~1000 impressions on your site to make you $1. What we can extrapolate from this is that if this model 'forces' most users into going Turbo instead of subscribing, it will have a negligible impact on streamers incoming, but a big bonus for Twitch's income. The end result would be streamers at a net loss because losing subscribers would be unrecouplable through the increased impressions.
And to be fair, I don't have a dog in this race. I'm not saying what Twitch is doing is 'wrong' or 'immoral' or something. I'm just looking at it objectively. And I can't see anyway that this model helps streamers in any meaningful way.