Venezuela - Mass Protests - Page 10
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GoTuNk!
Chile4591 Posts
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nunez
Norway4003 Posts
On February 25 2014 09:51 GoTuNk! wrote: Anyone who claims shortage of goods is the result of hoarding by the private sector is disconected from reality and denies the most basics principles of economy. This is no different from finance nobel's lauret (equivalent, it has another name) claiming there was no risk in the financial sector because their models proved it before the 2008 crisis. (Merton and a huge portion of the academy) doh! | ||
Dapper_Cad
United Kingdom964 Posts
The best part of this is the recycling of language. Disconnection from reality seems to be code for dissenting from corporate orthodoxy. I am also enjoy our other political regulars employment of sarcasm. Keep up the circus gents. | ||
GoTuNk!
Chile4591 Posts
On January 17 2015 22:45 Dapper_Cad wrote: The best part of this is the recycling of language. Disconnection from reality seems to be code for dissenting from corporate orthodoxy. I am also enjoy our other political regulars employment of sarcasm. Keep up the circus gents. Disconnection from reality means exactly that. State controled economies have failed over and over again all over the world, because it is an economic model that simply does not work. However some people seem unable to observe what evidently happens and instead, come up with an obscure alternative reason for why this country fails. The most common ones are blaming "counter revolutionaries", the private sector hoarding, or the U.S. | ||
Dapper_Cad
United Kingdom964 Posts
On January 18 2015 03:04 GoTuNk! wrote: Disconnection from reality means exactly that. State controled economies have failed over and over again all over the world, because it is an economic model that simply does not work. However some people seem unable to observe what evidently happens and instead, come up with an obscure alternative reason for why this country fails. The most common ones are blaming "counter revolutionaries", the private sector hoarding, or the U.S. If you make a concerted effort to avoid looking at the facts of history, you're entirely correct. | ||
Dapper_Cad
United Kingdom964 Posts
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DeepElemBlues
United States5075 Posts
On January 18 2015 04:06 Dapper_Cad wrote: If you make a concerted effort to avoid looking at the facts of history, you're entirely correct. then it should be really easy for you to give some examples of planned/controlled economies matching or exceeding the neoliberal european countries and the US/Canada in economic growth and standard of living. argentina perhaps? well, no. india? well, no. china? well... no. russia? sorry. venezuela? hmmm... okay, no. saudi arabia? maybe in the 1970s... nah, not even then. scandinavia? none of those are planned economies... even the most socialy european social democracy is still predominantly a neoliberal economy/culture. where could one find these details of history that someone must make a concerted effort to avoid seeing, if they are to believe that planned economies stink? it actually takes a concerted effort to avoid looking at the facts to history to conclude anything else other than that modern state-controlled economies = fail. that's all they've ever done, ever. not a single one has achieved success. not russia, not china, not venezuela, not argentina, not any of them. that's why china gave up that crap 30 years ago and went for crony capitalism instead. | ||
JonnyBNoHo
United States6277 Posts
On January 17 2015 22:45 Dapper_Cad wrote: The best part of this is the recycling of language. Disconnection from reality seems to be code for dissenting from corporate orthodoxy. I am also enjoy our other political regulars employment of sarcasm. Keep up the circus gents. What's corporate orthodoxy? GAAP? Venezuela uses price controls and subsidies to push up consumer demand. The same policies are either ineffective at increasing supply to match that increased demand, or counter-productive. The result has been an increasing need to meet demand through unsustainable means. A few big unsustainable means that I've seen have been running down inventories and borrowing from abroad to import more. It's not that subsidies or pushing up consumer demand are bad things, as if trying to improve the lot of the poor is doomed to failure, it's a budget issue. They can only afford to do those sort of things so much and they've pushed things well beyond what's practical. Latin America has seen this story play out before in Chile and Peru, and the end isn't pretty. Europe has seen a similar story play out in Greece. It's fun to live beyond your means when someone on the outside is willing to finance your profligacy. But that good time never lasts forever, and the hangover sucks. Edit: Another historical note; the Soviet Union had inventory issues as well. Retailers were often hit with shortages and factories and warehouses often had a lot of raw material and WIP inventory sitting around. | ||
nebula.
Sweden1431 Posts
On January 18 2015 04:32 DeepElemBlues wrote: it actually takes a concerted effort to avoid looking at the facts to history to conclude anything else other than that modern state-controlled economies = fail. that's all they've ever done, ever. not a single one has achieved success. not russia, not china, not venezuela, not argentina, not any of them. that's why china gave up that crap 30 years ago and went for crony capitalism instead. Wow this is some ignorance. First of all, you seem to use crony capitalism as something worth striving for, am I correct? If you do, I can tell you that the economic model of Argentina is quite similar to the one of China, in fact, they all are (do you think Chávez ever tried to completely abolish capitalism? He didn't) -- capitalist with a quite a lot of state intervention. You seem to think that all state intervention does is lead to failure. I'm not chavista nor kirchnerista but your post is full of ignorance. There is no economy in the world that has only achieved success without some failures. Or is there? Please, enlighten me. Let's begin with Venezuela -- the inflation is super high in Venezuela, the murder rates have gone up and the government is accused of corruption over and over again. But has the state control of Venezuela only led to shit? + Show Spoiler + Venezuela has reduced its GINI coefficient significantly since Chávez was elected. Some people say "but a GINI coeff. of 0.4 is still reeeeally high." What most people forget is that you can't compare any countries on earth. Compare Venezuela with other Latin American countries (with at least somewhat similar histories) and you'll understand what I'm talking about. + Show Spoiler + Chávez was elected in 1999. Is unemployment completely irrelevant? Poverty (especially extreme poverty) was also reduced, analphabetism was eradicated, child mortality significantly decreased, etc. For Argentina google something about what the ISI period did for the Argentine economy. The ISI period was one characterized by strong interventions from the state. You want more examples? Google Brazil ISI. If you want to see what happened with the GINI in Argentina (Nestor Kirchner was elected in 2003): http://www.gapminder.org/world/#$majorMode=chart$is;shi=t;ly=2003;lb=f;il=t;fs=11;al=30;stl=t;st=t;nsl=t;se=t$wst;tts=C$ts;sp=5.59290322580644;ti=2010$zpv;v=0$inc_x;mmid=XCOORDS;iid=ti;by=ind$inc_y;mmid=YCOORDS;iid=pyj6tScZqmEcjeKHnZq6RIg;by=ind$inc_s;uniValue=8.21;iid=phAwcNAVuyj0XOoBL_n5tAQ;by=ind$inc_c;uniValue=255;gid=CATID0;by=grp$map_x;scale=lin;dataMin=1978;dataMax=2010$map_y;scale=lin;dataMin=19;dataMax=74$map_s;sma=49;smi=2.65$cd;bd=0$inds=i10_t001986,,,, I'm not saying these examples are the best in the world but ignorance like yours make me sad, especially when you don't have an idea what you're talking about. | ||
GoTuNk!
Chile4591 Posts
On January 19 2015 01:27 nebula. wrote: Wow this is some ignorance. First of all, you seem to use crony capitalism as something worth striving for, am I correct? If you do, I can tell you that the economic model of Argentina is quite similar to the one of China, in fact, they all are (do you think Chávez ever tried to completely abolish capitalism? He didn't) -- capitalist with a quite a lot of state intervention. You seem to think that all state intervention does is lead to failure. I'm not chavista nor kirchnerista but your post is full of ignorance. There is no economy in the world that has only achieved success without some failures. Or is there? Please, enlighten me. Let's begin with Venezuela -- the inflation is super high in Venezuela, the murder rates have gone up and the government is accused of corruption over and over again. But has the state control of Venezuela only led to shit? + Show Spoiler + Venezuela has reduced its GINI coefficient significantly since Chávez was elected. Some people say "but a GINI coeff. of 0.4 is still reeeeally high." What most people forget is that you can't compare any countries on earth. Compare Venezuela with other Latin American countries (with at least somewhat similar histories) and you'll understand what I'm talking about. + Show Spoiler + Chávez was elected in 1999. Is unemployment completely irrelevant? Poverty (especially extreme poverty) was also reduced, analfabetism was eradicated, child mortality significantly decreased, etc. For Argentina google something about what the ISI period did for the Argentine economy. The ISI period was one characterized by strong interventions from the state. You want more examples? Google Brazil ISI. If you want to see what happened with the GINI in Argentina (Nestor Kirchner was elected in 2003): http://www.gapminder.org/world/#$majorMode=chart$is;shi=t;ly=2003;lb=f;il=t;fs=11;al=30;stl=t;st=t;nsl=t;se=t$wst;tts=C$ts;sp=5.59290322580644;ti=2010$zpv;v=0$inc_x;mmid=XCOORDS;iid=ti;by=ind$inc_y;mmid=YCOORDS;iid=pyj6tScZqmEcjeKHnZq6RIg;by=ind$inc_s;uniValue=8.21;iid=phAwcNAVuyj0XOoBL_n5tAQ;by=ind$inc_c;uniValue=255;gid=CATID0;by=grp$map_x;scale=lin;dataMin=1978;dataMax=2010$map_y;scale=lin;dataMin=19;dataMax=74$map_s;sma=49;smi=2.65$cd;bd=0$inds=i10_t001986,,,, I'm not saying these examples are the best in the world but ignorance like yours make me sad, especially when you don't have an idea what you're talking about. I don't feel like commenting on your entire post, but Argentina isn't even remotely close to China; they are unable to produce anything and the country is pretty much run in a completely different way. A bit more on Argentina: I was there recently and I can tell you that government control has led to black market on pretty much everything. For starters, USD official exchange was 20 pesos per USD, but any argentinian was willing to give you 12 pesos for USD. When you flight in, you have to declare your cell phone, since there is shortage for pretty much all electronics. It is also well known Argentinans come to Chile in cars to buy their TV's and refrigerators when it is possible (from Mendoza mainly) There is a facebook campaign called "Corrida de tampones" which stands for "shortage of tampons", making fun of the fact that you can't get on some parts of Argentina. But yeah ISI has worked great in Argentina. | ||
JieXian
Malaysia4677 Posts
I feel for them because the shit might hit the fan soon in my country.. but that's for another thread and it's not as bad. Video describing the situation from another user | ||
xM(Z
Romania5257 Posts
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Copymizer
Denmark2075 Posts
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Clonester
Germany2808 Posts
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TanGeng
Sanya12364 Posts
Can't be surprised at empty shelves or long lines. Also it sounds like the soviet economy. | ||
JieXian
Malaysia4677 Posts
On May 04 2015 04:50 xM(Z wrote: first vid is a little tinfoily, just sayin'. Yes, they stretch it a bit far, but the main point about the Castros and the collectivos isn't, since their people are worried about Cuba. The censorship, brainwashing, smuggling, lack of items and queues are all true, based on second hand accounts from locals. And a black market price for USD, since the buying of foreign currency is controlled. The USD can be worth from 6.30 bsf to 279 bsf (according to https://dolartoday.com/) But hey, if spicing it up with hezbollah stuff (if it isn't true) is what gives them the energy to fight, why not? | ||
xM(Z
Romania5257 Posts
i doubt regular venezuelans care that much what happens in middle east. it's obvious that they have other priorities now. | ||
Shiragaku
Hong Kong4308 Posts
On May 04 2015 04:23 JieXian wrote: A new viral video made by the protesting students in Venezuela themselves. I think it deserves to be in the OP since it's a side of the story we haven't really heard from yet. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vnRjGYaqvIM I feel for them because the shit might hit the fan soon in my country.. but that's for another thread and it's not as bad. Video describing the situation from another user https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmvAdRntWH8 Fuck, that second video really pissed me off with the attitude of "Wow, it must be so difficult to live with insanity. Glad I do not have to live in such chaos" when the situation in America is just as insane, if not more so. I would go into the mind numbing hypocrisy and propaganda expressed on all sides, but I would simply be deconstructing all the bullshit and obscurantism seen in the Ukraine conflict again. The 1st video is a wonderful example of sensationalism and hyperboles, almost like KONY 2012. My god, the crinoline is still murdering my soul | ||
JieXian
Malaysia4677 Posts
On May 04 2015 17:00 Shiragaku wrote: Fuck, that second video really pissed me off with the attitude of "Wow, it must be so difficult to live with insanity. Glad I do not have to live in such chaos" when the situation in America is just as insane, if not more so. I would go into the mind numbing hypocrisy and propaganda expressed on all sides, but I would simply be deconstructing all the bullshit and obscurantism seen in the Ukraine conflict again. The 1st video is a wonderful example of sensationalism and hyperboles, almost like KONY 2012. My god, the crinoline is still murdering my soul I agree about the sensationalism. But unless I'm missing something, I don't think that the shelves grocery stores in America are empty and the USD is undergoing hyperinflation. | ||
URfavHO
United States514 Posts
On May 04 2015 23:38 JieXian wrote: I agree about the sensationalism. But unless I'm missing something, I don't think that the shelves grocery stores in America are empty and the USD is undergoing hyperinflation. No the other dude is obviously correct-- As I am drinking my $6 Starbucks, playing starcraft2 and LoL and WoW, with a tablet sitting on each of my legs, and consuming a $7 McShit meal. Ya things are pretty much the same. | ||
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