Something that caught my eye after digging a little through various news outlets.
What's all this racket about? The root of this protest movement has a lot of causes, but with what little authentic media you can find seeping out of the country, its hard to determine the who and what is in the wrong or right.
The most apparent view nonetheless is that Nicolas Maduro (the current president of Venezuela) basically failed in his policies. A failure that essentially lead to hyperinflation, mass crime (something that's really risen in the past few years) and high unemployment. The majority of the opposition is demanding that Maduro and his cabinet be ousted (a view that isn't being held by the leaders of the opposition).
He obviously isn't going to go down without a fight, so a few "stray" rounds here and there sprinkled with some overzealous police and we have this crapstorm in a basket going in Venezuela.
Venezuela: Several shot dead in anti-government street protests
At least three people have been shot dead during anti-government protests in Venezuela. Both sides are blaming each other for the killings while social media reports allege government backed armed groups were responsible. The protesters are angry with President Nicolas Maduro’s failure to control inflation, crime and a lack of opportunities for the country’s young.
.....
The government has accused opposition hardliners of trying to mount a coup similar to the one a decade ago that briefly ousted the late socialist leader Hugo Chavez.
Protests turn violent in Venezuela amid growing anger CARACAS — Shots rang out and tear gas clouded the air of a wealthy Caracas district Saturday night as protests against the government continued for a fourth consecutive day.
.....
There is growing anger here at soaring inflation — which is up to 56.3% over the past 12 months — and a murder rate that, according to local NGOs, is one of the world's highest.
"The government is taking us into the slaughterhouse," said Valentina Ortiz, 33, a pediatrician in Plaza Altamira. "We'll just be able to get food and water soon."
.....
With no looming election, there is little hope that the protests will topple Maduro from power. The unrest also points toward a split within the opposition as Henrique Capriles, the opposition's leader who lost elections against both Maduro and Chávez, has distanced himself from the demonstrations.
Opposition supporters now see little hope in Capriles, and support is growing for more hardline members of the opposition.
"López is more radical than Capriles, and that's what this country needs right now," said protester Tulio Manzini, 22, in Plaza Altamira.
Venezuela’s Nicolas Maduro Reaches Out to Opposition Leaders
Venezuelan President Nicolas Maduro launched a new plan to combat violent crime, inviting three opposition governors, including two-time presidential candidate Henrique Capriles, to sign on to the strategy.
“I’ll meet with you, the three opposition governors, and receive you at the Miraflores Palace whenever you want, and we’ll talk and I’ll explain directly the tasks that fall to you in the Pacification Plan,” Maduro said in a public event Friday.
.....
The president, who was accompanied at the public event by 20 pro-government governors and several Cabinet ministers, said the plan marks the start of a “new model” in the fight against crime. “A revolution of love, a profound revolution to unite us in new values,” Maduro said.
Twitter reports image blocking in ‘restrictive’ Venezuela Twitter said Friday that Venezuela had blocked images on its service following an anti-government protest that turned bloody, and it offered a workaround for users who want to get tweets via text message on their cellphones.
.....
Video and still images that circulated via Twitter after the killings purported to show police and pro-government activists shooting at protesters. The images' authenticity could not be confirmed.
.....
Venezuela's government also suspended broadcasting inside the country on Wednesday night of the regional news channel NTN24, claiming it was trying to incite citizens to overthrow the government.
.....
Activists said they believe the Twitter image blocking was designed to censor images that President Nicolas Maduro's government did not want Venezuelans to see.
Venezuela split by pro- and anti-Maduro protests CARACAS, Venezuela – Supporters and opponents of Venezuela’s leftist government staged dueling rallies Saturday in Caracas and other cities in the latest public displays of discontent at soaring inflation and basic goods shortages.
......
Two anti-government protesters and a pro-Maduro demonstrator died in a rally Wednesday, in violence that raised alarm throughout Latin America and as far away as Europe. Some 60 people were also injured.
“Before, we would not go out on the street because of crime. Now, we go out to protest and they kill us,” said university student Isaac Castillo, 27.
“We young people have neither faith nor hope. There are no jobs and even if we get one, it is not enough to make a decent living.”
.....
Maduro says the protests against him signal the rumblings of a coup to depose him, vowing to use force to prevent unauthorized street gatherings.
The president has accused opposition leader Leopoldo López of being one of the main backers of the protests, and he is wanted for arrest.
“Turn yourself over, coward! The people want justice,” Maduro said.
.....
The U.N. High Commissioner for Human Rights urged the Venezuelan government Friday to bring those responsible for the violence to justice. The European Union also expressed concern.
.....
The protesters have demanded that Maduro step down, although opposition leaders have not endorsed the request.
So what does this all mean? Mind you, the last time a protest close to this scale happened was back when Hugo Chavez was ousted temporarily in 2002. Nothing really changed from that since it wasn't taken as seriously (hence his rapid return to office).
But unlike last time, this protest seems a lot more organised, larger and widespread, not to mention the crisis the country is going through and with the advent of social media allowing word of this rally to spread more quickly, there's a greater chance this time a protest of this scale will make a bigger impact.
Nonetheless, the primary question that still remains is whether the rest of the population will back this protest or the current regime since Hugo held basically 60% of the majority last time. Don't forget that the military and national police are also on Maduro's side.
And if they do succeed, what will form out of the ashes of the current government? Would this new establishment be pro-West (or pro-U.S. to be more specific) and become capitalist or lean more towards Russia/China? What would the implications be for the nearby countries and for the rest of Latin America? Could this be the beginning of some sort of "Latino Spring"? Discuss.
On February 17 2014 07:47 DeepElemBlues wrote: Turns out that price controls and calling people fascist scum doesn't turn your country into a paradise. Who knew?
Yeah basically this, the only reason shit didn't hit the fan sooner was the surplus money from oil. The country has been runing on failed political and economical premises for over a decade now.
I really doubt these counter-revolutionaries represent the people of bolivia, let's not forget the interest and political view behind the news reports.
We have been protesting for the last week, and we will continue to do so until our goals and expectations are met.
Everyday that passes we become more organised and have clearer goals than the day before. In the first few days the National Guard (GNB) was shooting smoke bombs to students protesting in a pacific manner. There are even videos demonstrating that SEBIN people (Servicio Bolivariano de Inteligencia · Bolivarian Service of Intelligence) shot the students while they were trying to scape smoke bombs and more shooting. (Video >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MmHEEO_MpII).
After that, they stopped attacking in day hours, and waited for the sun to come down. That way it'd be harder for them to be caught on camera and easier to get away with it.
Some things to take into consideration: + They've been using expired smoke bombs. + A day ago, in Altamira square, they used green gas. News outlets report that these are lethal and may contain arsenic.
The closing of a news outlet (NTN24) here is also a big problem. They were the only ones in the street reporting what students were being victims of. Most (if not all) of the TV Networks are controlled by the Government. So obviously they don't show anything that's happening on the streets and most people are left uninformed. Twitter and Instagram have become a great deal in these recent days due to the fact that information can be spread easily and with the right amount on confirmation it can be helpful to those in dangerous situations.
These tags are the most prominents for people reporting things: #SOSVenezuela, #PrayForVenezuela, #VenezuelaReporta.
I'll try to stop by this thread in a day or two and report back.
"This is a yet another fascist coup backed by the west"
...aaaand we're back to square one. Nonetheless...
Doing what I can with Google Translate and some guesswork (I obviously don't speak Spanish )
Hostile Negotiations
1:50 - Things start taking a turn for the worse when a negotiation (I would assume) between the protesters and police get heated. 5:40 - More tear gas is fired at protesters that refuse to stand down (OUCH for the guy in the background who's getting his arse handed to him by a squad of cops). 7:20 - Police returning to formation as two (?) protesters call for the rest of the crowd to stand back?
Pro-government rallies in (?) downtown Caracas
Those people behind the interviewees don't look too enthusiastic though.
Not the best move. It doesn't bother them all. Want to fuck with the us? stop selling petroleum and stop buying gas to/from Them. That'll start something huge.
They have always been paranoid of the US. To the extend of saying that Chavez's cancer was induced by the US to him.
In most of these protests, tear gas is thrown at students without notice of warning calls. I'll try to find a picture where people were just there, protesting in peace and less than 10m away a GNB shots a tear gas bomb at the massive group of students.
Ugh, I had so much hope for Venezuela when I was younger but the more and more I learned about the politics, the more and more I started to expect an opposition movement. It looks like it finally happened. Stay safe funkie and best of luck to you and your movement!
On February 17 2014 14:34 Shiragaku wrote: Ugh, I had so much hope for Venezuela when I was younger but the more and more I learned about the politics, the more and more I started to expect and opposition movement. It looks like it finally happened. Stay safe funkie and best of luck to you and your movement!
You are making it sound like the protests and tearing the country apart. The protests are a manifestation of a country broken down by goverment control and corruption.
If the protests stop tomorrow, you still have a country ridden with shortage of basic supplies, inflation, unemployment, high crime and violence and a corrupt government. If things don't change they won't get better and violence will return.
On February 17 2014 14:34 Shiragaku wrote: Ugh, I had so much hope for Venezuela when I was younger but the more and more I learned about the politics, the more and more I started to expect and opposition movement. It looks like it finally happened. Stay safe funkie and best of luck to you and your movement!
You are making it sound like the protests and tearing the country apart. The protests are a manifestation of a country broken down by goverment control and corruption.
If the protests stop tomorrow, you still have a country ridden with shortage of basic supplies, inflation, unemployment, high crime and violence and a corrupt government. If things don't change they won't get better and violence will return.
stay safe funkie
Oh no, I am well aware that the protests are a response to the injustice that plagues the country rather than a society that was a socialist paradise that is being destroyed by a bunch of reactionary hooligans. I know that Venezuela is not an ideal nation and most people I know who are strong supporters of the Venezuelan government tend to be anti-imperialist for the sake of anti-imperialism rather than out of love for democracy.
Oh Maduro. Maybe you won't last long enough to be as dearly loved as Chavez. Maybe it isn't the nonpartisan source, but if you like news with humor, that would be Peter Jeffrey
I’m a Socialist and I Know What I’m Doing
No, not me. I’m a monarchist and I need directions to Versailles. I’m talking about Nicolas Maduro, the president of Venezuela. He’s the socialist who knows what he’s doing.
He pointed it out recently in a State of the Nation address he needn’t have given since everyone who lives in Venezuela already knows the State of the Nation and it is Excruciating.[...]
[Finance Leader Fired] Who is the new finance minister? An army brigadier general. What unsuccessful effort at battling inflation did the government try two months ago? Troops. Look, it seemed to make sense at the time. It’s a syllogism:
We want to fight inflation Troops fight (Wait for it)
Troops can fight inflation Quod erat demonstrandum. (That’s on the other side of the nation’s 12 million-bolivar note.)
And the guy who failed to whip inflation as finance minister — what is his fate? A. He has resigned in disgrace from public affairs. B. He has fled the country in the dead of night, stopping only at Arby’s for an Ultimate Angus (19 million bolivars but that’s with fries). C. He has dug a hidey hole, only deeper than Saddam’s. D. He goes back to running the nation’s central bank.
My 5$ is on Maduro out. It might only be nominally worth 31.5 Bolívars, but at least it can buy a burger.
such is the legacy of Chavez. He managed to elevate the poor by turning his country into Zimbabwe, thus ensuing social equality in this workers paradise, as now the money is worth nothing.
On February 17 2014 09:50 crazyweasel wrote: I'll share another side of this matter that way we can have an ecclectic view of the positions there are.
I really doubt these counter-revolutionaries represent the people of bolivia, let's not forget the interest and political view behind the news reports.
its almost like the failures of your ideology always end up 'solved' by more and more violent repression. Who would have thought?
but yeah, its the counter-revolutionaries that are clearly hoarding all the toilet paper. maybe the problem is insufficient nationalization of the toilet paper manufacturers and jailing of all their executives
I really doubt these counter-revolutionaries represent the people of bolivia, let's not forget the interest and political view behind the news reports.
Well since they're Venezuelan I do doubt that they represent the people of Bolivia. And I wish that one day more Marxists than not would drop the brain-killing "let's not forget the interest and political view" line used so they can just dismiss anything they don't like reading or hearing or seeing.
"rancid opposition"
"Conciliation is not possible" (fascist repression against alleged fascism is the way to go I guess...)
"hoarding goods" which is a political argument I don't think even Marx would suggest that shortages in Venezuela are because the bourgoisie is "hoarding goods"
"the interests of the working class and bourgeoisie are diametrically opposed" somehow this only ever seems to be true in countries run by reactionary socialists
"it is impossible for them [the bourgoisie] to behave in any way other than what they have been doing" well they've contested elections for over a decade now so it looks like they are capable of doing things other than street protests
"To put an end to the coup let us put an end to the power of the bourgeoisie." I'm sure this will be great...
"Expropriate the capitalists to put an end to the economic coup d’état." aka steal all their shit
"For the mobilisation of the people and a radicalisation of the revolution to destroy those who want to carry out a coup." aka fascist repression
"It is for this reason that in order to develop the country we have to socialise the main levers of the economy. This means expropriating the main monopolies (national and international), the large land estates and the private banks." Venezuela already has one of the most nationalized economies in the world, including almost all the "main levers of the economy."
"It is only in this way [stealing people's shit whom you disagree with] that we will really be able to plan the economy of the country." The economy of the country has been planned for 14 years and the results are as we have seen. The lowest class brought up a teeny bit at the impoverishment of everyone else. Unless you're super-rich or super-poor the Bolivarian revolution has been crap for you, super-rich because they can avoid the disruptions and nonsense easier, the super-poor because any kind of effort at improving their very sorry lot is going to succeed at least some. But for the other 75% of the country, a destroyed currency and horribly mismanaged economy has screwed them. But most of them are petit bourgoisie proto-fascist scum anyway.
you'd think economic liberalism would be the ideology springing to mind when talking about violent repression in south america.
apparently, Pinochet can make omelettes without taking his country straight to the third world, which cannot be said about senors Chavez and Castro
I don't want to "protect" Castro... But Cuba was fucked since the US embargo started, Cuba actually improved when compared to the "pre"-Castro era... And if you compare it with some other caribean islands it also doesn't look THAT bad today.
I in no way want to defend Castro, he's a murderer and a tyrant, but blaming only him for Cubas failure is a bit simplistic.
On February 17 2014 23:10 419 wrote: so its axiomatic that any problems in a ~workers paradise~ are caused by counter-revolutionary forces
hahahaha
you'd think economic liberalism would be the ideology springing to mind when talking about violent repression in south america.
apparently, Pinochet can make omelettes without taking his country straight to the third world, which cannot be said about senors Chavez and Castro
I don't want to "protect" Castro... But Cuba was fucked since the US embargo started, Cuba actually improved when compared to the "pre"-Castro era... And if you compare it with some other caribean islands it also doesn't look THAT bad today.
I in no way want to defend Castro, he's a murderer and a tyrant, but blaming only him for Cubas failure is a bit simplistic.
It's also entirely accurate. Socialism destroyed Cuba's economy in the ~2 years before the US embargo. The average Cuban farmer's income was higher than that in France in 1959. That was over by 1960. The US dollar and the Cuban peso were at even value in 1959. That was over by 1960. In 1958 Cuba had a higher standard of living than any country in South or Central America. That was over by 1960. Che Guevara was appointed "Minister of Industries" in 1961. He later admitted he'd royally fucked that job up as the Cuban per-capita income which pre-revolution had been higher than that in America dropped to Third-World level. The situation had deteriorated so much that by 1964 the Soviets told Castro get rid of Che or no more money from us (the USSR over the course of 3 decades gave Cuba $130 billion, ten times the amount the US spent on the Marshall Plan for all of Western Europe. Yet Cuba remained impoverished). I can't remember which it was right now but in 1960 either Mikoyan or Gromyko visited Cuba and when Castro told him he needed loads of moolah to develop Cuba he laughed and said in response, "This is an undeveloped country?" Well it sure soon would be. They built factories that never produced a single product, they tried to cultivate plants that they should have known would not succeed and nearly crippled Cuba's sugar industry, and a load of other genius socialist economic plans that worked out just as well as they did in the USSR in the late 20s and early 30s.
The US did not totally end diplomatic ties with Cuba until January 1961 and institute an embargo until October 1960, two years after the revolution.
Cuba was not improving pre-embargo compared to what it had been pre-revolution. It had regressed. Because communists destroy economies. No need for imperialist US meddling. Cuba had heavily subsidized trade with the approximately 1/2 of the world that was ruled by communists for three decades - some embargo - and still couldn't rise above the level of a Third-World failed state. After the Missile Crisis there was no physical limitation on Cuba's trade and there never has been any US limitation on Cuban trade with other countries, if they wanted to trade with Cuba they could. Yet still, Cuba remained a hellhole socialist paradise.
I really doubt these counter-revolutionaries represent the people of bolivia, let's not forget the interest and political view behind the news reports.
Well since they're Venezuelan I do doubt that they represent the people of Bolivia. And I wish that one day more Marxists than not would drop the brain-killing "let's not forget the interest and political view" line used so they can just dismiss anything they don't like reading or hearing or seeing.
"rancid opposition"
"Conciliation is not possible" (fascist repression against alleged fascism is the way to go I guess...)
"hoarding goods" which is a political argument I don't think even Marx would suggest that shortages in Venezuela are because the bourgoisie is "hoarding goods"
"the interests of the working class and bourgeoisie are diametrically opposed" somehow this only ever seems to be true in countries run by reactionary socialists
"it is impossible for them [the bourgoisie] to behave in any way other than what they have been doing" well they've contested elections for over a decade now so it looks like they are capable of doing things other than street protests
"To put an end to the coup let us put an end to the power of the bourgeoisie." I'm sure this will be great...
"Expropriate the capitalists to put an end to the economic coup d’état." aka steal all their shit
"For the mobilisation of the people and a radicalisation of the revolution to destroy those who want to carry out a coup." aka fascist repression
"It is for this reason that in order to develop the country we have to socialise the main levers of the economy. This means expropriating the main monopolies (national and international), the large land estates and the private banks." Venezuela already has one of the most nationalized economies in the world, including almost all the "main levers of the economy."
"It is only in this way [stealing people's shit whom you disagree with] that we will really be able to plan the economy of the country." The economy of the country has been planned for 14 years and the results are as we have seen. The lowest class brought up a teeny bit at the impoverishment of everyone else. Unless you're super-rich or super-poor the Bolivarian revolution has been crap for you, super-rich because they can avoid the disruptions and nonsense easier, the super-poor because any kind of effort at improving their very sorry lot is going to succeed at least some. But for the other 75% of the country, a destroyed currency and horribly mismanaged economy has screwed them. But most of them are petit bourgoisie proto-fascist scum anyway.
i didn't even know it was physically possible to wipe your ass on a forum post.
On February 18 2014 03:18 Roe wrote: Interesting to see if the US really is up to their usual regime manipulation again (maybe another 70 years and we'll know)
I have family in Cuba and they're telling me that they are sending Cuban troops over to Venezuela. Since you guys want to mention Cuba, I thought I should mention that as well. Seems weird that Cuban troops are being forced to go on Venezuela's behalf.
Source: My cousin joined the Cuban army due to mandatory age and is now in Venezuela with a year left in duty...
Let's go American expansionism! I say we offer to let Venezuela join the US, then they could have our help in fixing all their stuff. I'm guessing they'd vote against such a thing (I also rather doubt there'd be enough support in America for it either)
I really doubt these counter-revolutionaries represent the people of bolivia, let's not forget the interest and political view behind the news reports.
Well since they're Venezuelan I do doubt that they represent the people of Bolivia. And I wish that one day more Marxists than not would drop the brain-killing "let's not forget the interest and political view" line used so they can just dismiss anything they don't like reading or hearing or seeing.
"rancid opposition"
"Conciliation is not possible" (fascist repression against alleged fascism is the way to go I guess...)
"hoarding goods" which is a political argument I don't think even Marx would suggest that shortages in Venezuela are because the bourgoisie is "hoarding goods"
"the interests of the working class and bourgeoisie are diametrically opposed" somehow this only ever seems to be true in countries run by reactionary socialists
"it is impossible for them [the bourgoisie] to behave in any way other than what they have been doing" well they've contested elections for over a decade now so it looks like they are capable of doing things other than street protests
"To put an end to the coup let us put an end to the power of the bourgeoisie." I'm sure this will be great...
"Expropriate the capitalists to put an end to the economic coup d’état." aka steal all their shit
"For the mobilisation of the people and a radicalisation of the revolution to destroy those who want to carry out a coup." aka fascist repression
"It is for this reason that in order to develop the country we have to socialise the main levers of the economy. This means expropriating the main monopolies (national and international), the large land estates and the private banks." Venezuela already has one of the most nationalized economies in the world, including almost all the "main levers of the economy."
"It is only in this way [stealing people's shit whom you disagree with] that we will really be able to plan the economy of the country." The economy of the country has been planned for 14 years and the results are as we have seen. The lowest class brought up a teeny bit at the impoverishment of everyone else. Unless you're super-rich or super-poor the Bolivarian revolution has been crap for you, super-rich because they can avoid the disruptions and nonsense easier, the super-poor because any kind of effort at improving their very sorry lot is going to succeed at least some. But for the other 75% of the country, a destroyed currency and horribly mismanaged economy has screwed them. But most of them are petit bourgoisie proto-fascist scum anyway.
sorry it was a mistake saying bolivian people, while wirting this is was reading on the bolivarian revolution my bad.
I really doubt these counter-revolutionaries represent the people of bolivia, let's not forget the interest and political view behind the news reports.
Well since they're Venezuelan I do doubt that they represent the people of Bolivia. And I wish that one day more Marxists than not would drop the brain-killing "let's not forget the interest and political view" line used so they can just dismiss anything they don't like reading or hearing or seeing.
"rancid opposition"
"Conciliation is not possible" (fascist repression against alleged fascism is the way to go I guess...)
"hoarding goods" which is a political argument I don't think even Marx would suggest that shortages in Venezuela are because the bourgoisie is "hoarding goods"
"the interests of the working class and bourgeoisie are diametrically opposed" somehow this only ever seems to be true in countries run by reactionary socialists
"it is impossible for them [the bourgoisie] to behave in any way other than what they have been doing" well they've contested elections for over a decade now so it looks like they are capable of doing things other than street protests
"To put an end to the coup let us put an end to the power of the bourgeoisie." I'm sure this will be great...
"Expropriate the capitalists to put an end to the economic coup d’état." aka steal all their shit
"For the mobilisation of the people and a radicalisation of the revolution to destroy those who want to carry out a coup." aka fascist repression
"It is for this reason that in order to develop the country we have to socialise the main levers of the economy. This means expropriating the main monopolies (national and international), the large land estates and the private banks." Venezuela already has one of the most nationalized economies in the world, including almost all the "main levers of the economy."
"It is only in this way [stealing people's shit whom you disagree with] that we will really be able to plan the economy of the country." The economy of the country has been planned for 14 years and the results are as we have seen. The lowest class brought up a teeny bit at the impoverishment of everyone else. Unless you're super-rich or super-poor the Bolivarian revolution has been crap for you, super-rich because they can avoid the disruptions and nonsense easier, the super-poor because any kind of effort at improving their very sorry lot is going to succeed at least some. But for the other 75% of the country, a destroyed currency and horribly mismanaged economy has screwed them. But most of them are petit bourgoisie proto-fascist scum anyway.
ideology comes from state-nation concept of uniformisation of culture and hegemony. pointing out there are some monetary and ideological interest should be the norm my folk, that's what we do in politics to counter corruption
again i was just giving the otherside of the coin with this article (for more ecclectic information), i don't really care what you think of it; we could go years long on this debate
I really doubt these counter-revolutionaries represent the people of bolivia, let's not forget the interest and political view behind the news reports.
Well since they're Venezuelan I do doubt that they represent the people of Bolivia. And I wish that one day more Marxists than not would drop the brain-killing "let's not forget the interest and political view" line used so they can just dismiss anything they don't like reading or hearing or seeing.
"rancid opposition"
"Conciliation is not possible" (fascist repression against alleged fascism is the way to go I guess...)
"hoarding goods" which is a political argument I don't think even Marx would suggest that shortages in Venezuela are because the bourgoisie is "hoarding goods"
"the interests of the working class and bourgeoisie are diametrically opposed" somehow this only ever seems to be true in countries run by reactionary socialists
"it is impossible for them [the bourgoisie] to behave in any way other than what they have been doing" well they've contested elections for over a decade now so it looks like they are capable of doing things other than street protests
"To put an end to the coup let us put an end to the power of the bourgeoisie." I'm sure this will be great...
"Expropriate the capitalists to put an end to the economic coup d’état." aka steal all their shit
"For the mobilisation of the people and a radicalisation of the revolution to destroy those who want to carry out a coup." aka fascist repression
"It is for this reason that in order to develop the country we have to socialise the main levers of the economy. This means expropriating the main monopolies (national and international), the large land estates and the private banks." Venezuela already has one of the most nationalized economies in the world, including almost all the "main levers of the economy."
"It is only in this way [stealing people's shit whom you disagree with] that we will really be able to plan the economy of the country." The economy of the country has been planned for 14 years and the results are as we have seen. The lowest class brought up a teeny bit at the impoverishment of everyone else. Unless you're super-rich or super-poor the Bolivarian revolution has been crap for you, super-rich because they can avoid the disruptions and nonsense easier, the super-poor because any kind of effort at improving their very sorry lot is going to succeed at least some. But for the other 75% of the country, a destroyed currency and horribly mismanaged economy has screwed them. But most of them are petit bourgoisie proto-fascist scum anyway.
sorry it was a mistake saying bolivian people, while wirting this is was reading on the bolivarian revolution my bad.
I really doubt these counter-revolutionaries represent the people of bolivia, let's not forget the interest and political view behind the news reports.
Well since they're Venezuelan I do doubt that they represent the people of Bolivia. And I wish that one day more Marxists than not would drop the brain-killing "let's not forget the interest and political view" line used so they can just dismiss anything they don't like reading or hearing or seeing.
"rancid opposition"
"Conciliation is not possible" (fascist repression against alleged fascism is the way to go I guess...)
"hoarding goods" which is a political argument I don't think even Marx would suggest that shortages in Venezuela are because the bourgoisie is "hoarding goods"
"the interests of the working class and bourgeoisie are diametrically opposed" somehow this only ever seems to be true in countries run by reactionary socialists
"it is impossible for them [the bourgoisie] to behave in any way other than what they have been doing" well they've contested elections for over a decade now so it looks like they are capable of doing things other than street protests
"To put an end to the coup let us put an end to the power of the bourgeoisie." I'm sure this will be great...
"Expropriate the capitalists to put an end to the economic coup d’état." aka steal all their shit
"For the mobilisation of the people and a radicalisation of the revolution to destroy those who want to carry out a coup." aka fascist repression
"It is for this reason that in order to develop the country we have to socialise the main levers of the economy. This means expropriating the main monopolies (national and international), the large land estates and the private banks." Venezuela already has one of the most nationalized economies in the world, including almost all the "main levers of the economy."
"It is only in this way [stealing people's shit whom you disagree with] that we will really be able to plan the economy of the country." The economy of the country has been planned for 14 years and the results are as we have seen. The lowest class brought up a teeny bit at the impoverishment of everyone else. Unless you're super-rich or super-poor the Bolivarian revolution has been crap for you, super-rich because they can avoid the disruptions and nonsense easier, the super-poor because any kind of effort at improving their very sorry lot is going to succeed at least some. But for the other 75% of the country, a destroyed currency and horribly mismanaged economy has screwed them. But most of them are petit bourgoisie proto-fascist scum anyway.
sorry it was a mistake saying bolivian people, while wirting this is was reading on the bolivarian revolution my bad.
"Expropriate the capitalists to put an end to the economic coup d’état." aka steal all their shit
there will always be kulaks.
you are basing you're ideas of marxism on USSR's failures. you of all people should know that stalinism does not rhyme with marxism :p see what i did there
I really doubt these counter-revolutionaries represent the people of bolivia, let's not forget the interest and political view behind the news reports.
Well since they're Venezuelan I do doubt that they represent the people of Bolivia. And I wish that one day more Marxists than not would drop the brain-killing "let's not forget the interest and political view" line used so they can just dismiss anything they don't like reading or hearing or seeing.
"rancid opposition"
"Conciliation is not possible" (fascist repression against alleged fascism is the way to go I guess...)
"hoarding goods" which is a political argument I don't think even Marx would suggest that shortages in Venezuela are because the bourgoisie is "hoarding goods"
"the interests of the working class and bourgeoisie are diametrically opposed" somehow this only ever seems to be true in countries run by reactionary socialists
"it is impossible for them [the bourgoisie] to behave in any way other than what they have been doing" well they've contested elections for over a decade now so it looks like they are capable of doing things other than street protests
"To put an end to the coup let us put an end to the power of the bourgeoisie." I'm sure this will be great...
"Expropriate the capitalists to put an end to the economic coup d’état." aka steal all their shit
"For the mobilisation of the people and a radicalisation of the revolution to destroy those who want to carry out a coup." aka fascist repression
"It is for this reason that in order to develop the country we have to socialise the main levers of the economy. This means expropriating the main monopolies (national and international), the large land estates and the private banks." Venezuela already has one of the most nationalized economies in the world, including almost all the "main levers of the economy."
"It is only in this way [stealing people's shit whom you disagree with] that we will really be able to plan the economy of the country." The economy of the country has been planned for 14 years and the results are as we have seen. The lowest class brought up a teeny bit at the impoverishment of everyone else. Unless you're super-rich or super-poor the Bolivarian revolution has been crap for you, super-rich because they can avoid the disruptions and nonsense easier, the super-poor because any kind of effort at improving their very sorry lot is going to succeed at least some. But for the other 75% of the country, a destroyed currency and horribly mismanaged economy has screwed them. But most of them are petit bourgoisie proto-fascist scum anyway.
sorry it was a mistake saying bolivian people, while wirting this is was reading on the bolivarian revolution my bad.
So, you're saying that I'm lying, and these protests are fake because of that website review of a few pic selection?. Want Real Pictures?
ok.
All in all, I don't want you to believe and I really don't care if you choose not to. We Venezuelans, have bigger problems than a dude saying our protest is fake on a internet forum.
"So, you're saying that I'm lying, and these protests are fake because of that website review of a few pic selection?. Want Real Pictures?"
im saying that medias are manipulating the information and that these protests are reactionary, not revolutionary. im curious to know what do you protest for if i may ask?
im saying that medias are manipulating the information and that these protests are reactionary, not revolutionary. im curious to know what do you protest for if i may ask?
I was going to call you a tankie, but I then remembered that the IMT is Trotskyist. I never would have imagined the day when I see Trots and tankies would unite on a single issue.
One more thing, you sound like the American media when talking about Occupy, Fox News in particular.
im saying that medias are manipulating the information and that these protests are reactionary, not revolutionary. im curious to know what do you protest for if i may ask?
I was going to call you a tankie, but I then remembered that the IMT is Trotskyist. I never would have imagined the day when I see Trots and tankies would unite on a single issue.
One more thing, you sound like the American media when talking about Occupy, Fox News in particular.
im not troskyist even though you are right IMT is, actually im simply not what you can call an orthodox marxist. Neither am i leninist. well marxists in general support revolutions that are instigated by the people not the bourgeoisie, maybe thats why they get along on this issue, i dont know though?.
so i sound like manipulating media when i say medias manipulate? holy shit mate that's deep meta
im saying that medias are manipulating the information and that these protests are reactionary, not revolutionary. im curious to know what do you protest for if i may ask?
I was going to call you a tankie, but I then remembered that the IMT is Trotskyist. I never would have imagined the day when I see Trots and tankies would unite on a single issue.
One more thing, you sound like the American media when talking about Occupy, Fox News in particular.
im not troskyist even though you are right IMT is, actually im simply not what you can call an orthodox marxist. Neither am i leninist. well marxists in general support revolutions that are instigated by the people not the bourgeoisie, maybe thats why they get along on this issue, i dont know though?.
so i sound like manipulating media when i say medias manipulate? holy shit mate that's deep meta
I would rather take "bourgeois revolution" any day before police brutality, corruption, destruction of the free press, incompetent management of the nation, inflation, and abuses of power.
How come your new president is so bad? While being brilliant is hard, pursuing basic sound policies really isn't, so I often wonder what causes bad leaders.
I really doubt these counter-revolutionaries represent the people of bolivia, let's not forget the interest and political view behind the news reports.
Well since they're Venezuelan I do doubt that they represent the people of Bolivia. And I wish that one day more Marxists than not would drop the brain-killing "let's not forget the interest and political view" line used so they can just dismiss anything they don't like reading or hearing or seeing.
"rancid opposition"
"Conciliation is not possible" (fascist repression against alleged fascism is the way to go I guess...)
"hoarding goods" which is a political argument I don't think even Marx would suggest that shortages in Venezuela are because the bourgoisie is "hoarding goods"
"the interests of the working class and bourgeoisie are diametrically opposed" somehow this only ever seems to be true in countries run by reactionary socialists
"it is impossible for them [the bourgoisie] to behave in any way other than what they have been doing" well they've contested elections for over a decade now so it looks like they are capable of doing things other than street protests
"To put an end to the coup let us put an end to the power of the bourgeoisie." I'm sure this will be great...
"Expropriate the capitalists to put an end to the economic coup d’état." aka steal all their shit
"For the mobilisation of the people and a radicalisation of the revolution to destroy those who want to carry out a coup." aka fascist repression
"It is for this reason that in order to develop the country we have to socialise the main levers of the economy. This means expropriating the main monopolies (national and international), the large land estates and the private banks." Venezuela already has one of the most nationalized economies in the world, including almost all the "main levers of the economy."
"It is only in this way [stealing people's shit whom you disagree with] that we will really be able to plan the economy of the country." The economy of the country has been planned for 14 years and the results are as we have seen. The lowest class brought up a teeny bit at the impoverishment of everyone else. Unless you're super-rich or super-poor the Bolivarian revolution has been crap for you, super-rich because they can avoid the disruptions and nonsense easier, the super-poor because any kind of effort at improving their very sorry lot is going to succeed at least some. But for the other 75% of the country, a destroyed currency and horribly mismanaged economy has screwed them. But most of them are petit bourgoisie proto-fascist scum anyway.
sorry it was a mistake saying bolivian people, while wirting this is was reading on the bolivarian revolution my bad.
it sounds like they could use some Committees for the Defense of the Revolution, to suppress heinous crimes like families buying black market chicken
pointing out there are some monetary and ideological interest should be the norm my folk, that's what we do in politics to counter corruption
yes, of course the political / military leadership of workers paradises would never abuse their monopoly power for personal enrichment, right?
"Expropriate the capitalists to put an end to the economic coup d’état." aka steal all their shit
there will always be kulaks.
you are basing you're ideas of marxism on USSR's failures. you of all people should know that stalinism does not rhyme with marxism :p see what i did there
in fact none of my first two sentences were explicitly referring to the USSR (I have another current regime in mind, it should be pretty obvious with cursory googling)
While being brilliant is hard, pursuing basic sound policies really isn't, so I often wonder what causes bad leaders.
he's just continuing Chavez's brilliant reforms~ "I'm a socialist and I know what I am doing," he said, and that is that
im saying that medias are manipulating the information and that these protests are reactionary, not revolutionary. im curious to know what do you protest for if i may ask?
I was going to call you a tankie, but I then remembered that the IMT is Trotskyist. I never would have imagined the day when I see Trots and tankies would unite on a single issue.
One more thing, you sound like the American media when talking about Occupy, Fox News in particular.
im not troskyist even though you are right IMT is, actually im simply not what you can call an orthodox marxist. Neither am i leninist. well marxists in general support revolutions that are instigated by the people not the bourgeoisie, maybe thats why they get along on this issue, i dont know though?.
so i sound like manipulating media when i say medias manipulate? holy shit mate that's deep meta
I would rather take "bourgeois revolution" any day before police brutality, corruption, destruction of the press, incompetent management of the nation, inflation, and abuses of power.
granted that these are not appealing, but i hope you do realise that all these you named are in vogue in you're country. inflation is dictated by world economy system of course planned economies will struggle (but lets not talk about the increasing poor in our own countries). corruption, incompetent management, abuse of power (isreal usa russia canada - my country - you name it) destruction of press has not yet happenned in venezuela, but in russia and israel..... police brutality: maybe you're not part of the "minorities" who get ID controlled every day or maybe have you never been hit by a cop in your life but it happens everyday even here. I'm not trying to normalize the situation, it is a dramatic one we'll all agree but let's say that not too far from our reality.
My point never was to support repression, im just part of those who think this is a bourgeois uprising, i may be wrong, only time will tell.
im saying that medias are manipulating the information and that these protests are reactionary, not revolutionary. im curious to know what do you protest for if i may ask?
I was going to call you a tankie, but I then remembered that the IMT is Trotskyist. I never would have imagined the day when I see Trots and tankies would unite on a single issue.
One more thing, you sound like the American media when talking about Occupy, Fox News in particular.
im not troskyist even though you are right IMT is, actually im simply not what you can call an orthodox marxist. Neither am i leninist. well marxists in general support revolutions that are instigated by the people not the bourgeoisie, maybe thats why they get along on this issue, i dont know though?.
so i sound like manipulating media when i say medias manipulate? holy shit mate that's deep meta
I would rather take "bourgeois revolution" any day before police brutality, corruption, destruction of the press, incompetent management of the nation, inflation, and abuses of power.
granted that these are not appealing, but i hope you do realise that all these you named are in vogue in you're country. inflation is dictated by world economy system of course planned economies will struggle (but lets not talk about the increasing poor in our own countries). corruption, incompetent management, abuse of power (isreal usa russia canada - my country - you name it) destruction of press has not yet happenned in venezuela, but in russia and israel..... police brutality: maybe you're not part of the "minorities" who get ID controlled every day or maybe have you never been hit by a cop in your life but it happens everyday even here. I'm not trying to normalize the situation, it is a dramatic one we'll all agree but let's say that not too far from our reality.
My point never was to support repression, im just part of those who think this is a bourgeois uprising, i may be wrong, only time will tell.
The reason I am not talking about those issues is because this is a thread about Venezuela.
Maduro expels 3 US officials amid protest tensions CARACAS, Venezuela: President Nicolas Maduro on Sunday ordered the expulsion of three U.S. Embassy officials after Washington came to the defense of an opposition hard-liner accused by Venezuela's leader of responsibility for bloodshed during anti-government protests.
.....
Triggering the expulsion was the Obama administration's siding with opposition leader Leopoldo Lopez, who is being hunted by police as Maduro accuses him of leading a "fascist" plot to oust the socialist government two months after it won mayoral elections by a landslide.
Maduro said State Department official Alex Lee, in a phone conversation with venezuela's ambassador to the Washington-based Organization of American States, warned that arresting the 42-year-old former mayor would bring serious negative consequences with international ramifications.
"These are unacceptable, insolent demands," Maduro said during a televised address Sunday night. "I don't take orders from anyone in the world."
.....
...which is also related to this:
Venezuela braces for protest led by fugitive; U.S. diplomats expelled
CARACAS, Venezuela — An opposition leader being hunted by authorities on homicide charges announced plans to lead a protest march Tuesday and then turn himself in to police.
Leopoldo Lopez, a former Caracas borough mayor, denies the criminal accusation made by President Nicolas Maduro, who is facing increasing criticism over his handling of the economy.
The government is blaming Lopez and other opposition leaders for inciting violence among antigovernment marchers that left three dead and scores injured last week. Lopez and allies who oppose Maduro say it was armed, motorcycle-riding government vigilantes who provoked the violence.
.....
In comments to reporters Monday, Foreign Minister Elias Jaua said the three U.S. Embassy staffers had 48 hours to leave the country.
Protests continued over the weekend in Caracas and other cities, resulting in dozens of injuries and arrests. The panorama is increasingly bleak in a highly polarized country in which Maduro, following the pattern of his predecessor and patron Hugo Chavez, constantly demonizes the opposition, leaving little space for mutual accommodation.
I think the US and foreign countries (even Maduro's buddies Castro and Evo Morales) play a very small role in what is happening in Venezuela; you can game people so much with petty arguments and lefist rethoric. When inflation, violence, government corruption and shortage of supplies happen people start manifesting and it has very little to do with international politics. They just want Maduro out and their freedom back.
Venezuela raids opposition party office, expels 3 U.S. diplomats Feb 17 (Reuters) - Venezuelan security forces raided the headquarters of an opposition party accused of fomenting nearly a week of violent protests, witnesses said, as the country expelled three U.S. diplomats on charges of conspiring with demonstrators.
Presumed military intelligence officers burst into the opposition Popular Will party office and attempted to forcibly remove several activists after throwing tear gas inside, according to party officials.
"The intelligence officers arrived and began to harass us," said party activist Adriangela Ruiz. "They threw tear gas, took computers and tried to take away several people."
The government has issued an arrest warrant for Popular Will's founder, Leopoldo Lopez, 42, the U.S.-educated opposition leader accused of murder and terrorism in relation to the violent demonstrations of the past week.
.....
The Caracas protests have been limited to mostly upscale areas, with little evidence so far that Venezuelans will join the demonstrations en masse across the country of 29 million people. Even so, thousands were out in the streets again on Monday.
.....
VIOLENCE ON BOTH SIDES Complaints about acts of violence by both sides have piled up over six consecutive days of confrontations between police and demonstrators. Only 13 students were still reportedly detained after nearly 100 arrests in the past week.
Opposition activists say some of the detained students have been tortured, while videos and photos circulating online show uniformed men firing on protesters. Maduro insists police have been restrained in the face of provocation and attacks.
.....
Venezuelan photographer Gabriel Osorio said that on Saturday troops hit him in the head with a pistol, shot him with rubber bullets and broke one of his ribs.
"I was working. I wasn't throwing rocks," Osorio told a local newspaper. "I yelled: 'I'm with the press,' but that actually seemed to be what triggered their attack."
Government leaders have denounced violence by demonstrators linked to opposition marches, including vandalizing buildings and burning of trash along city avenues.
Hooded protesters have gathered outside the headquarters of state TV channel VTV for the past few nights, lighting fires in the streets and hurling stones and Molotov cocktails.
"If anyone thinks they're going to halt the activities of (state TV), they're sorely mistaken," said the channel's president, Yuri Pimentel.
im saying that medias are manipulating the information and that these protests are reactionary, not revolutionary. im curious to know what do you protest for if i may ask?
I was going to call you a tankie, but I then remembered that the IMT is Trotskyist. I never would have imagined the day when I see Trots and tankies would unite on a single issue.
One more thing, you sound like the American media when talking about Occupy, Fox News in particular.
im not troskyist even though you are right IMT is, actually im simply not what you can call an orthodox marxist. Neither am i leninist. well marxists in general support revolutions that are instigated by the people not the bourgeoisie, maybe thats why they get along on this issue, i dont know though?.
so i sound like manipulating media when i say medias manipulate? holy shit mate that's deep meta
I would rather take "bourgeois revolution" any day before police brutality, corruption, destruction of the press, incompetent management of the nation, inflation, and abuses of power.
granted that these are not appealing, but i hope you do realise that all these you named are in vogue in you're country. inflation is dictated by world economy system of course planned economies will struggle (but lets not talk about the increasing poor in our own countries). corruption, incompetent management, abuse of power (isreal usa russia canada - my country - you name it) destruction of press has not yet happenned in venezuela, but in russia and israel..... police brutality: maybe you're not part of the "minorities" who get ID controlled every day or maybe have you never been hit by a cop in your life but it happens everyday even here. I'm not trying to normalize the situation, it is a dramatic one we'll all agree but let's say that not too far from our reality.
My point never was to support repression, im just part of those who think this is a bourgeois uprising, i may be wrong, only time will tell.
im saying that medias are manipulating the information and that these protests are reactionary, not revolutionary. im curious to know what do you protest for if i may ask?
I was going to call you a tankie, but I then remembered that the IMT is Trotskyist. I never would have imagined the day when I see Trots and tankies would unite on a single issue.
One more thing, you sound like the American media when talking about Occupy, Fox News in particular.
im not troskyist even though you are right IMT is, actually im simply not what you can call an orthodox marxist. Neither am i leninist. well marxists in general support revolutions that are instigated by the people not the bourgeoisie, maybe thats why they get along on this issue, i dont know though?.
so i sound like manipulating media when i say medias manipulate? holy shit mate that's deep meta
I would rather take "bourgeois revolution" any day before police brutality, corruption, destruction of the press, incompetent management of the nation, inflation, and abuses of power.
granted that these are not appealing, but i hope you do realise that all these you named are in vogue in you're country. inflation is dictated by world economy system of course planned economies will struggle (but lets not talk about the increasing poor in our own countries). corruption, incompetent management, abuse of power (isreal usa russia canada - my country - you name it) destruction of press has not yet happenned in venezuela, but in russia and israel..... police brutality: maybe you're not part of the "minorities" who get ID controlled every day or maybe have you never been hit by a cop in your life but it happens everyday even here. I'm not trying to normalize the situation, it is a dramatic one we'll all agree but let's say that not too far from our reality.
My point never was to support repression, im just part of those who think this is a bourgeois uprising, i may be wrong, only time will tell.
what the hell are you talking about?
well he just said that he'd rather have a bourgeois capitalist society than corruption, inflation, abuse of power, police brutality etc. and i pointed that you have all those things in bourgeois capitalist society. so what is it you'd rather not have ? that what im asking
im saying that medias are manipulating the information and that these protests are reactionary, not revolutionary. im curious to know what do you protest for if i may ask?
I was going to call you a tankie, but I then remembered that the IMT is Trotskyist. I never would have imagined the day when I see Trots and tankies would unite on a single issue.
One more thing, you sound like the American media when talking about Occupy, Fox News in particular.
im not troskyist even though you are right IMT is, actually im simply not what you can call an orthodox marxist. Neither am i leninist. well marxists in general support revolutions that are instigated by the people not the bourgeoisie, maybe thats why they get along on this issue, i dont know though?.
so i sound like manipulating media when i say medias manipulate? holy shit mate that's deep meta
I would rather take "bourgeois revolution" any day before police brutality, corruption, destruction of the press, incompetent management of the nation, inflation, and abuses of power.
granted that these are not appealing, but i hope you do realise that all these you named are in vogue in you're country. inflation is dictated by world economy system of course planned economies will struggle (but lets not talk about the increasing poor in our own countries). corruption, incompetent management, abuse of power (isreal usa russia canada - my country - you name it) destruction of press has not yet happenned in venezuela, but in russia and israel..... police brutality: maybe you're not part of the "minorities" who get ID controlled every day or maybe have you never been hit by a cop in your life but it happens everyday even here. I'm not trying to normalize the situation, it is a dramatic one we'll all agree but let's say that not too far from our reality.
My point never was to support repression, im just part of those who think this is a bourgeois uprising, i may be wrong, only time will tell.
The reason I am not talking about those issues is because this is a thread about Venezuela.
well like i just said to the other guy, you find all these in a bourgeois society so you'd rather have a bourgeois society for other reasons but not to escape police brutaly corruption blablbabla and so on.
when we discuss politics you can't just isolate the subject ou of its context (a country and its relation to the world's dominant ideologies), we can't only speak about venezuela when there is a larger frame to it. especially when we talk ideologies.
on another note have we seen any women protest? usually a people's protest will involve most of the actors of a society, women, students, older people, politician also. if a major part of the actors of a society doesn't participate its a good sign that there are other interest than a people's revolution. eg. wright wing demonstration will almost everytime only be composed of men between 20-40 (or whatever the limited range it is you check it up)- u see that with neo-nazis, skinheads etc.
im saying that medias are manipulating the information and that these protests are reactionary, not revolutionary. im curious to know what do you protest for if i may ask?
I was going to call you a tankie, but I then remembered that the IMT is Trotskyist. I never would have imagined the day when I see Trots and tankies would unite on a single issue.
One more thing, you sound like the American media when talking about Occupy, Fox News in particular.
im not troskyist even though you are right IMT is, actually im simply not what you can call an orthodox marxist. Neither am i leninist. well marxists in general support revolutions that are instigated by the people not the bourgeoisie, maybe thats why they get along on this issue, i dont know though?.
so i sound like manipulating media when i say medias manipulate? holy shit mate that's deep meta
I would rather take "bourgeois revolution" any day before police brutality, corruption, destruction of the press, incompetent management of the nation, inflation, and abuses of power.
granted that these are not appealing, but i hope you do realise that all these you named are in vogue in you're country. inflation is dictated by world economy system of course planned economies will struggle (but lets not talk about the increasing poor in our own countries). corruption, incompetent management, abuse of power (isreal usa russia canada - my country - you name it) destruction of press has not yet happenned in venezuela, but in russia and israel..... police brutality: maybe you're not part of the "minorities" who get ID controlled every day or maybe have you never been hit by a cop in your life but it happens everyday even here. I'm not trying to normalize the situation, it is a dramatic one we'll all agree but let's say that not too far from our reality.
My point never was to support repression, im just part of those who think this is a bourgeois uprising, i may be wrong, only time will tell.
what the hell are you talking about?
well he just said that he'd rather have a bourgeois capitalist society than corruption, inflation, abuse of power, police brutality etc. and i pointed that you have all those things in bourgeois capitalist society. so what is it you'd rather not have ? that what im asking
I put bourgeois revolution in quotes for a reason. Seriously man, give your Marxist terminology a break, it is outdated and only works when talking to other people on the far-left. This is the 21st century, not the 20th century.
im saying that medias are manipulating the information and that these protests are reactionary, not revolutionary. im curious to know what do you protest for if i may ask?
I was going to call you a tankie, but I then remembered that the IMT is Trotskyist. I never would have imagined the day when I see Trots and tankies would unite on a single issue.
One more thing, you sound like the American media when talking about Occupy, Fox News in particular.
im not troskyist even though you are right IMT is, actually im simply not what you can call an orthodox marxist. Neither am i leninist. well marxists in general support revolutions that are instigated by the people not the bourgeoisie, maybe thats why they get along on this issue, i dont know though?.
so i sound like manipulating media when i say medias manipulate? holy shit mate that's deep meta
I would rather take "bourgeois revolution" any day before police brutality, corruption, destruction of the press, incompetent management of the nation, inflation, and abuses of power.
granted that these are not appealing, but i hope you do realise that all these you named are in vogue in you're country. inflation is dictated by world economy system of course planned economies will struggle (but lets not talk about the increasing poor in our own countries). corruption, incompetent management, abuse of power (isreal usa russia canada - my country - you name it) destruction of press has not yet happenned in venezuela, but in russia and israel..... police brutality: maybe you're not part of the "minorities" who get ID controlled every day or maybe have you never been hit by a cop in your life but it happens everyday even here. I'm not trying to normalize the situation, it is a dramatic one we'll all agree but let's say that not too far from our reality.
My point never was to support repression, im just part of those who think this is a bourgeois uprising, i may be wrong, only time will tell.
The reason I am not talking about those issues is because this is a thread about Venezuela.
well like i just said to the other guy, you find all these in a bourgeois society so you'd rather have a bourgeois society for other reasons but not to escape police brutaly corruption blablbabla and so on.
when we discuss politics you can't just isolate the subject ou of its context (a country and its relation to the world's dominant ideologies), we can't only speak about venezuela when there is a larger frame to it. especially when we talk ideologies.
on another note have we seen any women protest? usually a people's protest will involve most of the actors of a society, women, students, older people, politician also. if a major part of the actors of a society doesn't participate its a good sign that there are other interest than a people's revolution. eg. wright wing demonstration will almost everytime only be composed of men between 20-40 (or whatever the limited range it is you check it up)- u see that with neo-nazis, skinheads etc.
First off, those are just lazy opinions and talking points.
And concerning your second point, yes there are women protesters.
im saying that medias are manipulating the information and that these protests are reactionary, not revolutionary. im curious to know what do you protest for if i may ask?
I was going to call you a tankie, but I then remembered that the IMT is Trotskyist. I never would have imagined the day when I see Trots and tankies would unite on a single issue.
One more thing, you sound like the American media when talking about Occupy, Fox News in particular.
im not troskyist even though you are right IMT is, actually im simply not what you can call an orthodox marxist. Neither am i leninist. well marxists in general support revolutions that are instigated by the people not the bourgeoisie, maybe thats why they get along on this issue, i dont know though?.
so i sound like manipulating media when i say medias manipulate? holy shit mate that's deep meta
I would rather take "bourgeois revolution" any day before police brutality, corruption, destruction of the press, incompetent management of the nation, inflation, and abuses of power.
granted that these are not appealing, but i hope you do realise that all these you named are in vogue in you're country. inflation is dictated by world economy system of course planned economies will struggle (but lets not talk about the increasing poor in our own countries). corruption, incompetent management, abuse of power (isreal usa russia canada - my country - you name it) destruction of press has not yet happenned in venezuela, but in russia and israel..... police brutality: maybe you're not part of the "minorities" who get ID controlled every day or maybe have you never been hit by a cop in your life but it happens everyday even here. I'm not trying to normalize the situation, it is a dramatic one we'll all agree but let's say that not too far from our reality.
My point never was to support repression, im just part of those who think this is a bourgeois uprising, i may be wrong, only time will tell.
what the hell are you talking about?
well he just said that he'd rather have a bourgeois capitalist society than corruption, inflation, abuse of power, police brutality etc. and i pointed that you have all those things in bourgeois capitalist society. so what is it you'd rather not have ? that what im asking
I put bourgeois revolution in quotes for a reason. Seriously man, give your Marxist terminology a break, it is outdated and only works when talking to other people on the far-left. This is the 21st century, not the 20th century.
im saying that medias are manipulating the information and that these protests are reactionary, not revolutionary. im curious to know what do you protest for if i may ask?
I was going to call you a tankie, but I then remembered that the IMT is Trotskyist. I never would have imagined the day when I see Trots and tankies would unite on a single issue.
One more thing, you sound like the American media when talking about Occupy, Fox News in particular.
im not troskyist even though you are right IMT is, actually im simply not what you can call an orthodox marxist. Neither am i leninist. well marxists in general support revolutions that are instigated by the people not the bourgeoisie, maybe thats why they get along on this issue, i dont know though?.
so i sound like manipulating media when i say medias manipulate? holy shit mate that's deep meta
I would rather take "bourgeois revolution" any day before police brutality, corruption, destruction of the press, incompetent management of the nation, inflation, and abuses of power.
granted that these are not appealing, but i hope you do realise that all these you named are in vogue in you're country. inflation is dictated by world economy system of course planned economies will struggle (but lets not talk about the increasing poor in our own countries). corruption, incompetent management, abuse of power (isreal usa russia canada - my country - you name it) destruction of press has not yet happenned in venezuela, but in russia and israel..... police brutality: maybe you're not part of the "minorities" who get ID controlled every day or maybe have you never been hit by a cop in your life but it happens everyday even here. I'm not trying to normalize the situation, it is a dramatic one we'll all agree but let's say that not too far from our reality.
My point never was to support repression, im just part of those who think this is a bourgeois uprising, i may be wrong, only time will tell.
The reason I am not talking about those issues is because this is a thread about Venezuela.
well like i just said to the other guy, you find all these in a bourgeois society so you'd rather have a bourgeois society for other reasons but not to escape police brutaly corruption blablbabla and so on.
when we discuss politics you can't just isolate the subject ou of its context (a country and its relation to the world's dominant ideologies), we can't only speak about venezuela when there is a larger frame to it. especially when we talk ideologies.
on another note have we seen any women protest? usually a people's protest will involve most of the actors of a society, women, students, older people, politician also. if a major part of the actors of a society doesn't participate its a good sign that there are other interest than a people's revolution. eg. wright wing demonstration will almost everytime only be composed of men between 20-40 (or whatever the limited range it is you check it up)- u see that with neo-nazis, skinheads etc.
First off, those are just lazy opinions and talking points.
And concerning your second point, yes there are women protesters.
First, you give communism a bad name and now you give women's rights a bad name. Stay classy.
hmmk well are these from recent protest (cause i see no violence) or from the past electoral demonstration from the opposition party? how do i know. and how am i giving these a bad name, you're the one who is interpretting that way, and in that sense you have self empowrement if you were only taking what i said without interpretting your own way you'd simply take my message. YOU should stay classy, because on my part i've not gone into bashing
On February 19 2014 00:33 nunez wrote: two of them are from election last year, the one shira removed might be more relevant but couldn't really confirm. talking about lazy, haha.
Stay on topic mate. Preaching your "communism-is-good-capitalism-is-bad" rhetoric is not called providing an eclectic view, it's called derailing the thread.
Back to the topic on hand:
Venezuelan opposition leader Leopoldo López hands himself in to police
Venezuela's opposition leader Leopoldo López has handed himself in to the authorities after coming out of hiding to attend a rally of supporters in Caracas.
.....
The Harvard-educated politician has been accused of terrorism for encouraging the anti-government protests in several cities that saw fierce clashes between opposition demonstrators, police and colectivo militia groups loyal to the government.
But in a speech to several thousand supporters dressed in white, López denied the charges and said he was turning himself in to a corrupt justice system as a means of promoting non-violent reform.
"I have nothing to hide. They want to jail Venezuelans who want peaceful, democratic change," he said from a plinth for the statue of 19th century Cuban independence hero José Marti in Plaza Brion de Chacaíto. "This is the first step in the construction of the road for change and it must, by necessity, be a peaceful process."
crazyweasel posted a relevant article (bolivarian the name of the venezuelan political movement), and raised legitimate concerns (media during chavez coup did what?).
if the url makes you so defensive (aka rabid in the case of DEB) that your parsing amounts to 'bad is good, good is bad' you'll have a hard time discerning what is on-thread, even though i applaud your enthusiasm.
The foreign minister, Elias Jaua, said the expelled diplomats had met student activists at private universities "for training, financing and creating youth organisations through which violence is promoted in Venezuela". The US government denies this.
it would be surprising if the us weren't backing them in various ways.
Venezuela went one step further, lobbying to end any further effort on the FTAA and to unify resistence against U.S. policies and presence in Latin America... ... President Chavez's staunch anti-Americanism and determined opposition to an FTAA bodes poorly for restarting the negotiations at any point in time. Bolivia has since sought to join Mercosur, which would unite in one trade pact nearly all opposition to the FTAA.
In early March Mercosur will have readied its proposal to liberate trade to be presented to the European Union, the basis for a wide-ranging cooperation and trade agreement between the two blocks, announced Rubens Barbosa, head of the Trade Council from the Sao Paulo State Industries Federation, FIESP.
im saying that medias are manipulating the information and that these protests are reactionary, not revolutionary. im curious to know what do you protest for if i may ask?
I was going to call you a tankie, but I then remembered that the IMT is Trotskyist. I never would have imagined the day when I see Trots and tankies would unite on a single issue.
One more thing, you sound like the American media when talking about Occupy, Fox News in particular.
im not troskyist even though you are right IMT is, actually im simply not what you can call an orthodox marxist. Neither am i leninist. well marxists in general support revolutions that are instigated by the people not the bourgeoisie, maybe thats why they get along on this issue, i dont know though?.
so i sound like manipulating media when i say medias manipulate? holy shit mate that's deep meta
I would rather take "bourgeois revolution" any day before police brutality, corruption, destruction of the press, incompetent management of the nation, inflation, and abuses of power.
granted that these are not appealing, but i hope you do realise that all these you named are in vogue in you're country. inflation is dictated by world economy system of course planned economies will struggle (but lets not talk about the increasing poor in our own countries). corruption, incompetent management, abuse of power (isreal usa russia canada - my country - you name it) destruction of press has not yet happenned in venezuela, but in russia and israel..... police brutality: maybe you're not part of the "minorities" who get ID controlled every day or maybe have you never been hit by a cop in your life but it happens everyday even here. I'm not trying to normalize the situation, it is a dramatic one we'll all agree but let's say that not too far from our reality.
My point never was to support repression, im just part of those who think this is a bourgeois uprising, i may be wrong, only time will tell.
what the hell are you talking about?
well he just said that he'd rather have a bourgeois capitalist society than corruption, inflation, abuse of power, police brutality etc. and i pointed that you have all those things in bourgeois capitalist society. so what is it you'd rather not have ? that what im asking
not that, the bolded part: "inflation is dictated by world economy system of course planned economies will struggle". What do you mean by that?
On February 19 2014 22:03 nunez wrote: crazyweasel posted a relevant article (bolivarian the name of the venezuelan political movement), and raised legitimate concerns (media during chavez coup did what?).
Ah that sounds great...except for the fact that his alternate view is downright making libellous claims that this is simply another "bourgeoisie" uprising in disguise without providing any credible information whatsoever (an opinion piece from a clearly biased news website does not count as evidence). Note also that this whole uprising started because there are underlying socio-economic problems in Venezuela (the 56.2% inflation figure did not appear overnight).
These failures of course, are blamed on "permanent economic sabotage" by the opposition and outside forces and not by the government's poor policies and mishandling. It blames the "bourgeoisie" for creating the gap between the existing classes; to begin with, why is there even a class system in a supposedly classless society? (Shhh! Don't ask the Marxists about that!)
How exactly you see his alternate view as being related one-iota to the topic at hand is beyond me...
On February 19 2014 22:03 nunez wrote: if the url makes you so defensive (aka rabid in the case of DEB) that your parsing amounts to 'bad is good, good is bad' you'll have a hard time discerning what is on-thread, even though i applaud your enthusiasm.
Probably because the old rhetoric that this is all just a U.S. plot to "SEIZE THE MOTHERLAND ARGH!" is getting really, really stale and that it is not necessary to spout it at the first opportunity in every single piece that is critical of Communist-led governments?
I hope you realise that I also post news from sources that show both sides of the fence, and not just from sources that obviously would have an agenda behind reporting the protests (you know this principle applies to both sides right?). Then again, I might be asking for too much from you.
Moving on....
Pro-regime "Colectivos" vs. Anti-government protesters
Police disperse another rally in Venezuela as former beauty queen becomes latest casuality
CARACAS, Venezuela – Venezuelan police fired tear gas and buckshot to disperse hundreds of anti-government protesters late Wednesday, and the death toll from two weeks of unrest rose to four.
As U.S. President Barack Obama urged the government to release detainees, hospital officials said a 21-year-old former beauty queen in the northern city of Valencia who was shot in the head Tuesday died of her wounds.
Unrest stemming from anti-government fervor was reported in several cities in the oil-rich but economically troubled nation.
In a rich neighborhood in the east of Caracas, police used tear gas and buckshot to disperse protesters who had blocked a road by burning garbage and debris. Several injuries were reported.
The demo was in support of a prominent young opposition leader, Leopoldo López, who turned himself in to the authorities on Tuesday after days of eluding police seeking to execute an arrest warrant.
He was making a court appearance late Wednesday but no details had emerged. He is charged with instigating street demo violence last week that left three people dead.
.....
Political scientist Ángel Oropeza said the government was walking a tightrope.
“They may hold him for a few days. If they free him right away, it would be a sign of weakness,” said Oropeza, a political science professor at Simón Bolívar University in Caracas.
“But if they hold on to him for a long time, it could fuel the protests even more and the government would come under more international pressure,” he said.
On Tuesday, López told thousands of his supporters, all clad in white, that he hoped his arrest would highlight the “unjust justice” in Venezuela. He drew an explosion of cheers from the crowds.
a view well aligned with modern history. good 'ol empire dollaz making latin american economies scream once more. you gotta be pretty naive to think it does not happen with us backing. really makes you wonder what is being shipped the other way...
Venezuelan toll authorities confiscated a shipment of 2.5 million dollars in cash last December 29th, which is presumed to have been used to circumvent Venezuela’s strict currency controls. The shipment, which entered the country on an American Airlines flight, weighed 25 kilos and was entirely denominated in $100 bills.
I think you misunderstand why US dollars are imported. No part of that suggests a US conspiracy or any government involved, individual Venezuelans want to use US dollars to preserve the value of their money and to provide a stable basis for exchange because their own currency is too unstable and they have no faith in the government that controls the mint.
Basically if your currency might not be worth the same today as it was yesterday then you don't want to use it as a means of exchange. The bolivars are unstable while assets keep their value so trading assets for bolivars is very risky which pushes you into bartering or hedging your money into assets. However people still want to buy and sell things because economy. So, what do you do if you want to buy a house but the seller won't accept bolivars because they're unstable? You give him dollars.
When a nation loses faith in the stability of their own currency individual citizens choose to use a more stable means of exchange, most often the dollar. Venezuelans know that a dollar today will be pretty much the same as it was yesterday because it's backed up by the US gov.
The Venezuelan gov don't like this because it allows people to bypass their price fixing and devalues their own issued currency reducing their control over the national economy so they try to make it illegal and seize the dollars, as in the news article you linked. It's nothing more than economic repression to protect themselves from their own mistakes, forcing the average Venezuelan (although $100 suggests they were going to someone not average) to suffer inflation and the collapse of the market rather than opting out.
i was referring to the dollar's role shadow currency and the black market. engaging in it is pretty close to the definition of a conspiracy. i don't think us-govt involvement is restricted to the text "united states of america" on the bills, modern history suggests otherwise, but maybe a red-herring?
what came first, chicken or egg? the venezuelan foreign exchange control f.ex. came in response to the 2003 oil-strike (economic repression too). i think you are simplifying a bit too much.
On February 20 2014 23:12 KwarK wrote: Basically if your currency might not be worth the same today as it was yesterday then you don't want to use it as a means of exchange. The bolivars are unstable while assets keep their value so trading assets for bolivars is very risky which pushes you into bartering or hedging your money into assets. However people still want to buy and sell things because economy. So, what do you do if you want to buy a house but the seller won't accept bolivars because they're unstable? You give him dollars.
When a nation loses faith in the stability of their own currency individual citizens choose to use a more stable means of exchange, most often the dollar. Venezuelans know that a dollar today will be pretty much the same as it was yesterday because it's backed up by the US gov.
The Venezuelan gov don't like this because it allows people to bypass their price fixing and devalues their own issued currency reducing their control over the national economy so they try to make it illegal and seize the dollars, as in the news article you linked. It's nothing more than economic repression to protect themselves from their own mistakes, forcing the average Venezuelan (although $100 suggests they were going to someone not average) to suffer inflation and the collapse of the market rather than opting out.
This is very truth.
Last year you could trade 1 dollar for 10 bolivars in black market. Now its up to >90.
People either have to increase prices to even have profit, close, or just sell in dollars.
So people just stop importing. And with the so many expropriations fucking it up the country production, theres a huje supply deficit. You enter a supermarket and half shelfs are empty
I am surprised that there is a thread about Venezuela mass protests and nothing about the civil war starting in Ukraine. Especially considering the amount of Ukraine players in the Starcraft community.
On February 20 2014 22:39 nunez wrote: a view well aligned with modern history. good 'ol empire dollaz making latin american economies scream once more. you gotta be pretty naive to think it does not happen with us backing. really makes you wonder what is being shipped the other way...
Venezuelan toll authorities confiscated a shipment of 2.5 million dollars in cash last December 29th, which is presumed to have been used to circumvent Venezuela’s strict currency controls. The shipment, which entered the country on an American Airlines flight, weighed 25 kilos and was entirely denominated in $100 bills.
There's an official and a black market exchange rate for dollars. If you have government connections you can get dollars at the official exchange rate and then re-sell on the black market for big money. Or, if you can smuggle some in, you can make a lot too.
Venezuela could simply re-adjust its exchange rate with dollars, but it's too desperate to keep inflation in check. They're stooping to really, really derpy things like forcing appliance stores to sell things cheaper.
On February 21 2014 01:40 samurai80 wrote: I am surprised that there is a thread about Venezuela mass protests and nothing about the civil war starting in Ukraine. Especially considering the amount of Ukraine players in the Starcraft community.
On February 21 2014 01:40 samurai80 wrote: I am surprised that there is a thread about Venezuela mass protests and nothing about the civil war starting in Ukraine. Especially considering the amount of Ukraine players in the Starcraft community.
1. The protests have gone a bit violent. Colectivos, the pro-government groups with guns, are attacking each and everyone of out protests, even thought we are protesting in a pacific manner. They, however, don't care and start shooting tear gas and crowd control ammo at us.
3. For the last couple of days, the government goes on national television to inform about new laws and whatnot, and those announcements go hand in hand with the unlawful groups attacking people. Yesterday the report was that they were also shooting tear gas and ammo at the apartment buildings around Altamira, El panteon and La Candelaria. 2 protesters were shot yesterday, and they're both recorded on video. (I'll post them at the end of this).
4. Maduro has started a procedure to kick out CNNEE (CNN en Español) from the country. This procedure was conducted a few days ago to the Colombian-based NTN24. This raises more concern about the freedom of speech in the country overall.
5. In Tachira state, some warfare machinery has been out on the streets as of yesterday, also Internet and phone lines have been dead since around 8pm yesterday, with no sign of coming back. Some parts of said state are without electricity too. Some F16 or planes of that sort have been flying around Tachira too, throughout the day.
Some videos in the spoiler. I'll try to keep you guys posted.
President Maduro repeated his stance tonight that armed opposition groups, armed pro-government groups, and state security forces that fire weapons during protests will not be tolerated. “I won’t protect anyone in this country who fires during protests,” he said.
In 2008, the US-based Cato Institute awarded the US$500,000 Milton Friedman Prize for Advancing Liberty to student leader Yon Goicoechea for his role in mobilising protests against the suspension of private broadcaster RCTV’s licence. At the same time, a sizeable amount of the US$45 million in funding provided annually by US institutions to Venezuelan opposition groups was channelled to ‘youth outreach’ programmes.
In 2008, the US-based Cato Institute awarded the US$500,000 Milton Friedman Prize for Advancing Liberty to student leader Yon Goicoechea for his role in mobilising protests against the suspension of private broadcaster RCTV’s licence. At the same time, a sizeable amount of the US$45 million in funding provided annually by US institutions to Venezuelan opposition groups was channelled to ‘youth outreach’ programmes.
Bad article as it implies that any help to take maduro out of power is bad.
Also 99% sure the writer has never being to venezuela (vacations dont count) and know anything about the country.
I rofl to her saying the private sector was holding back food on warehouses to create "artificial" shortages xD Reminds me when maduro was blaming the "private sector" for the shortages of harina Pan. Things is, maduro is not chavez, and the "private sector" responded + Show Spoiler +
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFlJc0uGu5I
She obviously doesnt know the reason for the huge supply shortage, just some random "Dr" from hungary babling about something she has no ideia off.
We go from neo-nazis funded protestants, to students (funded obviously right). Will the next step be actually admitting that there is a huge chunk of the population that wants the government out? :D
On February 25 2014 03:20 nunez wrote: excellent article.
Rise of the Student Opposition
In 2008, the US-based Cato Institute awarded the US$500,000 Milton Friedman Prize for Advancing Liberty to student leader Yon Goicoechea for his role in mobilising protests against the suspension of private broadcaster RCTV’s licence. At the same time, a sizeable amount of the US$45 million in funding provided annually by US institutions to Venezuelan opposition groups was channelled to ‘youth outreach’ programmes.
Bad article as it implies that any help to take maduro out of power is bad.
Also 99% sure the writer has never being to venezuela (vacations dont count) and know anything about the country.
I rofl to her saying the private sector was holding back food on warehouses to create "artificial" shortages xD Reminds me when maduro was blaming the "private sector" for the shortages of harina Pan. Things is, maduro is not chavez, and the "private sector" responded + Show Spoiler +
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFlJc0uGu5I
She obviously doesnt know the reason for the huge supply shortage, just some random "Dr" from hungary babling about something she has no ideia off.
We go from neo-nazis funded protestants, to students (funded obviously right). Will the next step be actually admitting that there is a huge chunk of the population that wants the government out? :D
Julia Buxton is a specialist on South America and the region's rapidly evolving political, economic and security architecture. She is an expert on Venezuela, receiving her PhD from the London School of Economics, where she also studied for her MA (Distinction) in Comparative Politics.
So many countries to fix, so little authority to do it with
Certainly the effects of funding sources on the motives of an organization are going to have some effects that may be unfortunate, and sloppy reporting is a problem.
On February 25 2014 03:20 nunez wrote: excellent article.
Rise of the Student Opposition
In 2008, the US-based Cato Institute awarded the US$500,000 Milton Friedman Prize for Advancing Liberty to student leader Yon Goicoechea for his role in mobilising protests against the suspension of private broadcaster RCTV’s licence. At the same time, a sizeable amount of the US$45 million in funding provided annually by US institutions to Venezuelan opposition groups was channelled to ‘youth outreach’ programmes.
Bad article as it implies that any help to take maduro out of power is bad.
Also 99% sure the writer has never being to venezuela (vacations dont count) and know anything about the country.
I rofl to her saying the private sector was holding back food on warehouses to create "artificial" shortages xD Reminds me when maduro was blaming the "private sector" for the shortages of harina Pan. Things is, maduro is not chavez, and the "private sector" responded + Show Spoiler +
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFlJc0uGu5I
She obviously doesnt know the reason for the huge supply shortage, just some random "Dr" from hungary babling about something she has no ideia off.
We go from neo-nazis funded protestants, to students (funded obviously right). Will the next step be actually admitting that there is a huge chunk of the population that wants the government out? :D
Julia Buxton is a specialist on South America and the region's rapidly evolving political, economic and security architecture. She is an expert on Venezuela, receiving her PhD from the London School of Economics, where she also studied for her MA (Distinction) in Comparative Politics.
Anyone who claims shortage of goods is the result of hoarding by the private sector is disconected from reality and denies the most basics principles of economy.
This is no different from finance nobel's lauret (equivalent, it has another name) claiming there was no risk in the financial sector because their models proved it before the 2008 crisis. (Merton and a huge portion of the academy)
On February 25 2014 10:01 nunez wrote: well... it's a really good thing the author of the article doesn't claim that shortage of goods is a result of hoarding then.
jesus fucking christ.
so this means what?
...with ongoing raids by security forces on private sector warehouse facilities, where food and goods are allegedly being hoarded to create artificial shortages...
The reason some people close their store and dont sell their goods is not to create artificial shortages like she implies. Its because the inflation is so high that they will either have to raise substantially prices to not lose money (and risk getting their stores robbed by the "people"), or just wait it out until things stabilize.
The reason for the huge shortages is because the government stop giving dollars to importations, and because the national production got destroyed with the many years of corrupt expropriations.
She is full of shit, and you dont need much time to live there to realize that
On February 25 2014 10:01 nunez wrote: well... it's a really good thing the author of the article doesn't claim that shortage of goods is a result of hoarding then.
...with ongoing raids by security forces on private sector warehouse facilities, where food and goods are allegedly being hoarded to create artificial shortages...
The reason some people close their store and dont sell their goods is not to create artificial shortages like she implies. Its because the inflation is so high that they will either have to raise substantially prices to not lose money (and risk getting their stores robbed by the "people"), or just wait it out until things stabilize.
The reason for the huge shortages is because the government stop giving dollars to importations, and because the national production got destroyed with the many years of corrupt expropriations.
She is full of shit, and you dont need much time to live there to realize that
its much more complicated than that. you have to consider that venezuela's economy is still 2/3 not-nationalized (or expropriated). inflation, also, has to be considered with world's economical system where basically money is evaluated (partly and mostly) according to GDP. the thing is, in emergent countries the bigger sectors of the economy (aka primary : forest/mines/oil) belongs to transnational. money made out of these sectors is then calculated in that transnational locality's PGB and not the country where it was taken from. these countries are left with low expertise, low tax income (compared to what's taken in term of capital) and overall lower GDP. now GDP is a big part of money evaluation (is a country able to pay his debt). considering a low gradation of emergent countries' money -> goods stocking cost more -> that said country has to either expand his goodstocking expenses (by reducing his expenses in other sectors like jobs and social measures) or either buy less goods. in that case the price of goods will raise to the roof because people have to eat, its not a flexible thing there's ALWAYS demand for food.
On February 25 2014 10:32 nunez wrote: haha, take your time buddy. your reading comprehension will get there eventually. until then you should try to think a bit more before you post.
so instead of insulting opponents can you actually answer a simple question: "what caused the shortages?"
it was getting comical, he explicitly quoted the part that literally shows you why he's being stupid as a means to show me why i was being stupid.
on your question, seems like a farfetched request to make. if i could answer that i'd prolly get a nobels prize in economics to go with my post. here's a relevant bbc article though, i don't know if i posted it before.
Jose Luis Iragorry puts the crisis in perspective. He is a dairy farmer with 120 head of cattle, working in Zulia province, the country's agricultural heartland close to the Colombian border.
He says smuggling is the main reason most Venezuelans have not seen fresh milk or butter for most of this year, although he denies involvement himself and says that the biggest worry for producers like him is security.
might as well add in this this vice article i read recently too.
However, he emphasizes the structural threats to the global food system haven't been addressed. Bar-Yam has written at length about what he believes to be the root cause of food price swings: financial speculation and food-for-fuel policies like ethanol subsidies. Both, he argues, artificially drive up prices on the global market and, in turn, cause hunger and unrest.
How absurd. The government orders everyone to sell their stocks at below market value so the deprived villagers the government is trying to help buy them and then resell them across the border for their real value and pocket the difference causing the government to try to intervene in the market more.
On February 26 2014 11:34 KwarK wrote: How absurd. The government orders everyone to sell their stocks at below market value so the deprived villagers the government is trying to help buy them and then resell them across the border for their real value and pocket the difference causing the government to try to intervene in the market more.
Colombians have been coming to Venezuela to get all sorts of goods and then take it there by contraband. In December, we had this thing were they would come here and change their Pesos for Bolivares. When the government "advised" businesses to lower their prices or face penalties, even the most mundane things seemed cheap for the regular colombian.
Same things happens with Oil, a shitload of trucks, even a group of those being linked to Zulia's Governor son, have been taking Oil there to make the most of it by contraband. Who regulates what goes in/out in the border? The GNB. Why haven't they stopped the contraband? because they get a piece of the cake.
Businesess have been closing regularly early or not opening at all these days because of fear. Fear they might get sacked for everything they have. Some of those got sacked in a timely manner, in 4 different states. All sorts of shots got robbed and they were happening all at the same time, when the "president" was giving a speech on National tv.
Also the tupamaro + GNB attacks happened the first few days in a similar manner. They waited around 7-8pm and the president would go on national tv to give a speech about how much of a dick he is, and then the attacks would start again. Tear gas, "Perdigones", bullets and whatnot are the usual suspects.
On February 26 2014 10:49 JonnyBNoHo wrote: Venezuela heavily subsidizes food which drives up demand, while punishing suppliers which drives down supply.
Shortages ensue.
a capitialist bed time story. to cross quote itsjustatank
On February 26 2014 10:08 itsjustatank wrote: considering most if not all american food is subsidized to be at an artificially low price, the point is pretty moot.
and same in norway and the rest of the world, and partly why venezuela under chavez and maduro has been successfull distribuiting food (good infrastructure and governement subsidies).
the latter part of your stab is a bit more on point but too vague to parse.
i think venezuelas economic policies play a minor part. corruption, counter-revolutionary and imperialist mischief are the usual suspects.
On February 26 2014 10:49 JonnyBNoHo wrote: Venezuela heavily subsidizes food which drives up demand, while punishing suppliers which drives down supply.
Shortages ensue.
On February 26 2014 11:34 KwarK wrote: How absurd. The government orders everyone to sell their stocks at below market value so the deprived villagers the government is trying to help buy them and then resell them across the border for their real value and pocket the difference causing the government to try to intervene in the market more.
I guess nunez should give you a nobel prize.
And to nunez: that's not fairytale, that's how market economies work. If you have never studied economics, that would be hard to grasp, because those phrases are leveraged by some background knowledge. But for those who did, it's that simple.
the venezuelan economy as a whole, a perfect example of a system you can model with two straight lines on a sheet of paper. when it comes to jonny (and i'm sure for you too) economics is ideology dressed up in bad math.
On February 26 2014 10:49 JonnyBNoHo wrote: Venezuela heavily subsidizes food which drives up demand, while punishing suppliers which drives down supply.
Shortages ensue.
a capitialist bed time story. to cross quote itsjustatank
Well they really do subsidize food, and food consumption really has increased.
And they really do things that interrupt food supply like shutting down supermarkets. Price controls also create an incentive for producers to produce less and retailers to stock less, and they really do use price controls and in a heavy handed way at that. Currency controls are also making it harder for producers to work with foreign suppliers, which stalls production.
I'm sure ills like corruption play a role as well, but when the Venezuelan government designs a system that gives bad behavior (smuggling, hoarding, etc.) a profitable outcome and good behavior (producing, selling, etc.) an unprofitable one, you wind up with an outcome that is both terrible and predictable.
venezuela have been remarkably proficcient at supplying food to their people, and none of these policies sets venezuela markedly apart from the rest of the world (especially not subsidies).
these regulations are reactions to contra-revolutionary economic warfare and corruption. like f.ex. the currency control system which seems to be scaled down now.
you're pointing the finger at 'poor economic policies', blaming them for problems they were made in response to, very silly.
On February 27 2014 03:42 nunez wrote: venezuela have been remarkably proficcient at supplying food to their people, and none of these policies sets venezuela markedly apart from the rest of the world (especially not subsidies).
these regulations are reactions to contra-revolutionary economic warfare and corruption. like f.ex. the currency control system which seems to be scaled down now.
you're pointing the finger at 'poor economic policies', blaming them for problems they were made in response to, very silly.
Yeah, they're remarkable proficient... except for the whole shortages thing.
On February 27 2014 03:53 nunez wrote: haha, well yes, except that, it's actually ironic when you think about it. i meant un’s millennium development goals of course.
Well, like I said before - they subsidized food and increased demand for food. That means more food getting to people (increased demand). Where they failed was in developing supply for the long haul:
The country's production of many foodstuffs has fallen sharply. While official numbers are scarce, Carlos Machado, an agricultural expert at IESA business school in Caracas, estimates that from 2004 to 2012, corn production has fallen by 25% to around 1.5 million tons, rice by 34% to 650,000 tons and cattle production by 27% to around 300,000 tons, based on scattered government data and information from farmer information.
To bridge the gap in 2012, the state and the private sector spent an estimated $8 billion on imports, up from roughly $7 billion the year before, according to analyst estimates and state data.
On February 27 2014 03:42 nunez wrote: venezuela have been remarkably proficcient at supplying food to their people, and none of these policies sets venezuela markedly apart from the rest of the world (especially not subsidies).
these regulations are reactions to contra-revolutionary economic warfare and corruption. like f.ex. the currency control system which seems to be scaled down now.
you're pointing the finger at 'poor economic policies', blaming them for problems they were made in response to, very silly.
socialist bedtime story?
the labor force participation rate went from 52% to 46% during chavez's 13 years of rule. that result is one of the reasons that has required more direct subsidization and that can help drive shortages.
US food subsidization is not to make food cheaper for consumers. the number one food subsidization in the US is for corn grown not to be eaten but to be turned into fuel. other than that, US food subsidization is so farmers don't go out of business because food was already so cheap. you're telling us we're putting the cart before the horse but that is what you are doing. food is produced in such massive quantities that farmers can't survive just selling their produce, they don't make enough money. this is the same today as it was in the 1920s when most of this subsidization started. the only difference is today huge agricorporations own most farmland and the subsidies are more for the small individual farmers who are left.
i mean look you can blame it all on counterrevolutionaries and reactionaries and say price controls and subsidization are a response to class warfare by plutocrats but price controls cause shortages. period. doesnt matter why they were put in place, that is what price controls do.
actually venezuela's policies do set it apart from most of the developed world. france doesn't have shortages. the US doesn't have shortages. canada doesnt have shortages. not to the degree of venezuela or, say, egypt, another country where things like bread are nearly free to the people. what a surprise, egypt has had problems in recent years with food shortages. there is a huge difference between subsidizing farming and subsidizing the cost of food to the consumer.
gasoline is subsidized to 10 cents a gallon for Venezuelans, how many tens of billions of dollars of lost revenue is that? the venezuelan government could easily afford to make these shortages go away... if they weren't basically subsidizing cuba's entire economy out of socialist brotherhood and subsidizing that gasoline to keep the proletariat from hating on them.
even pure as the driven snow revolutionary policies aimed at the pigdogs of the plutocracy and their lapdogs in the bourgeoisie have unintended consequences.
us agricultural subsidies seems to be heavily tilted towards the largest producers. source
you know, instead of paraphrasing you should just really post the article you're copy pasting from debbie, that's what i do anyways. i can't seem to find a source for your labour rate participation claim. it was an unsourced claim.
it seems to be either increasing (esp for female) or staying about the same for the various groups... source
as oppsosed to the us total one falling 4% (you'll have to find the data yourself, couldn't link directly too it). source
blaming the govt for the currency control when you are touting the opposition as saviors is bs, since it was a product of contra-revolutionary bullshit in the first place.
edit: i do think the point about food-for-fuel subsidies is pretty interesting though, and it featured heavily in the vice article i posted earlier, where the system-theorist (mmm) places the blame for unrest like you see in venezuela and egypt on financial speculation and this food-for-fuel business.
On February 27 2014 04:47 nunez wrote: i would tend to blame the criminals driving the black market (increased demand)... a more grievious offense than trying to combat hunger and poverty.
On February 27 2014 04:47 nunez wrote: i would tend to blame the criminals driving the black market (increased demand)... a more grievious offense than trying to combat hunger and poverty.
On February 27 2014 04:47 nunez wrote: i would tend to blame the criminals driving the black market (increased demand)... a more grievious offense than trying to combat hunger and poverty.
Correct - blame the government
for one, yes i'm sure corruption is rife.
And their policies encourage it. And the example set by the leadership encourages it.
On February 27 2014 05:38 nunez wrote: mhm, policies put in place in response to?
govt policies made in response to me being a criminal made being a criminal so profitable, so govt is to blame for me being a criminal. that logic.
Government policies that made a black market in basic foodstuffs, something you don't really see anywhere, lucrative and a white market in basic foodstuffs difficult is, at least partially, to blame.
Not everything Venezuela has done has been in response to criminal activity btw.
On February 27 2014 06:05 nunez wrote: you're right... i should me more specific. everything done under chavez or madure is done in response to criminal activity.
so they've been doing nothing but fighting those criminals for 15 years now and still can't even guarantee basic things like the absense of food shortgages? Sounds like they are losing badly.
On February 27 2014 05:38 nunez wrote: mhm, policies put in place in response to?
govt policies made in response to me being a criminal made being a criminal so profitable, so govt is to blame for me being a criminal. that logic.
... implying that all the relevant government policies were in response to criminal activity.
That's not the case for many government policies that have contributed to the situation. So yeah I have to state the obvious - not all policies were responses to criminal activity.
I don't know why it is such a hard sell that a country facing food shortages made some policy errors!
On February 27 2014 04:47 nunez wrote: i would tend to blame the criminals driving the black market (increased demand)... a more grievious offense than trying to combat hunger and poverty.
Correct - blame the government
for one, yes i'm sure corruption is rife.
And their policies encourage it. And the example set by the leadership encourages it.
Not everyhing done in Venezuela encourages the black market.
On February 27 2014 04:47 nunez wrote: i would tend to blame the criminals driving the black market (increased demand)... a more grievious offense than trying to combat hunger and poverty.
Correct - blame the government
for one, yes i'm sure corruption is rife.
And their policies encourage it. And the example set by the leadership encourages it.
Not everyhing done in Venezuela encourages the black market.
So? Venezuela has problems. Bad policies played a major role in that.
On February 27 2014 04:47 nunez wrote: i would tend to blame the criminals driving the black market (increased demand)... a more grievious offense than trying to combat hunger and poverty.
Correct - blame the government
for one, yes i'm sure corruption is rife.
And their policies encourage it. And the example set by the leadership encourages it.
Not everyhing done in Venezuela encourages the black market.
So? Venezuela has problems. Bad policies played a major role in that.
jonny you wrote:
On February 27 2014 05:32 JonnyBNoHo wrote: And their policies encourage it. And the example set by the leadership encourages it.
... implying that everything that has happened in venezuela has encouraged the black market!
that's not the case for all things that have happened in venezuela in the relevant time-frame. so yeah, i had to state the obvious - not everything that happened in venezuela in the given time frame encouraged the black market!
i don't know why it is such a hard sell that a country with so many people has had things happen in it the last 15 years that didn't encourage the black market!
On February 27 2014 04:47 nunez wrote: i would tend to blame the criminals driving the black market (increased demand)... a more grievious offense than trying to combat hunger and poverty.
Correct - blame the government
for one, yes i'm sure corruption is rife.
And their policies encourage it. And the example set by the leadership encourages it.
Not everyhing done in Venezuela encourages the black market.
So? Venezuela has problems. Bad policies played a major role in that.
On February 27 2014 05:32 JonnyBNoHo wrote: And their policies encourage it. And the example set by the leadership encourages it.
... implying that everything that has happened in venezuela has encouraged the black market!
that's not the case for all things that have happened in venezuela in the relevant time-frame. so yeah, i had to state the obvious - not everything that happened in venezuela in the given time frame encouraged the black market!
i don't know why it is such a hard sell that a country with so many people has had things happen in it the last 15 years that didn't encourage the black market!
You repeatedly countered my bad policy argument by claiming that the policies were in response to criminals. Pointing out that not all policies were in response is completely valid on my end. So respond to the rest:
Did government polices not play a role in the rise of crime? I think they certainly did!!
Did government polices not play a role in creating these economic problems? I think the did as well!!
Or do you think that criminals are mainly to blame? If so, why was Venezuela beset by criminals? Did a bunch of cartels move into the country in the last few years? What created all the criminals? Bad luck??
Not everyhing done in Venezuela encourages the black market.
everything done. you are implying that everything done in venezuela encourages the black market, pointing out not everything done in venezuela encourages the black market is completely valid on my end.
that's a dumb false dichtonomy... do you think these guys played a role, or do you think these guys are mainly to blame?
Not everyhing done in Venezuela encourages the black market.
everything done. you are implying that everything done in venezuela encourages the black market, pointing out not everything done in venezuela encourages the black market is completely valid on my end.
that's a dumb false dichtonomy... do you think these guys played a role, or do you think these guys are mainly to blame?
I agreed with you that not everything has encouraged the black market... edit: see my response to your "not everyhing done in Venezuela encourages the black market" statement. I agreed that that's the case, but irrelevant.
Anyways, I do think that the government is mainly to blame here. They've been derping with bad policy for a long time and the effects are starting to really hit hard.
On February 27 2014 11:00 nunez wrote: yes, it's completely irrelevant, it was written in jest. i was aping you, but it seems you out-"aped yourself" me.
Yeah I know you were aping. Thought you had some point behind it, turns you you were just trolling.
sombre reading courtesy wsws, clocking in the death toll at 14 now.
Until now, the protests have gained little support outside of the more privileged middle class areas of Caracas and other cities. There have been scattered reports of cacerolazos— beating of pots and pans—in working class and poorer areas of the capital.
Popular frustrations are building up in these areas and among working people across Venezuela over real wages that have been slashed by inflation and currency devaluations, shortages and the government’s attacks on militant workers’ strikes and protests. The right-wing parties that have led the anti-Maduro demonstrations, however, hold little appeal for these layers of the population. Advancing reactionary slogans such as “people’s capitalism,” they seek to destroy whatever gains have been won by Venezuelan working people over the past decades and to restore the iron rule of the country’s traditional oligarchy.
While walking home yesterday, I noticed the banner above that had been draped across a walkover bridge on Sucre Avenue. It reads: “Si quieren llegar al gobierno ganen las elecciones! Mano dura a los guarimberas” (If you want to get to the government win elections! Get tough on organizers of violence!).
As Capriles himself pointed out in a recent speech, few people outside of the middle and upper class sectors in the east are going to be won over by the protests in the east. For many these tactics have solidified the belief that the opposition has no qualms about breaking the democratic rules of the game. Thus, they are likely to generate support and justifications for more, not less, censorship of the opposition voice.
On February 27 2014 06:05 nunez wrote: you're right... i should me more specific. everything done under chavez or madure is done in response to criminal activity.
Indeed. The protesters are all fascists and the security forces have done nothing wrong, am I right?
I'm working as an expat for a multinational corporation in Venezuela right now, so given the fact the government declared this whole week off and I'm bored sitting at home, I'll post a little objective non-bias insight here. Hope you enjoy the long read.
Most posts have discussed pretty much the heat of the situation going on here, so I guess there is no need for me to hit further on that. Instead I'll explain a bit of the causes and predjuces happenning, from a business economic oriented point of view.
The first thing that struck me -actually the one that stuck me most- coming here, is the cultural division between the people of the country. I have never seen anything like it, and I've been around some real crazy divided countries. Here, the officialists (gvt supporters) and the opposition, literally can't stand each other. It's not like Democrats or Republicans, Conservatives or Liberals, right or left wings, no no. People here can literally shut you down, if you don't share their political/socio/cultural beliefs. By people, I mean everything: actual individuals, businesses, and public branches. I'll go more into this later. Let's start with something simpler: the economy and the exchange rate control.
I work for a service product provider, and needless to say most of our products are under intellectual property rights. I mean, you don't see Apple giving away their iPhone diagrams right? So that being said, the last couple of years for the company I work for were a bit tough, given the fact that access to foreign currency (Dollars, Euros) was restricted. People could have access to buy, but within certain limits and under specific conditions. This principle applied for companies like mine too.
Pretty much since mid last year, the access to foreign currency became really uphill. Here's the procedure:
You have three entitties
MILCO CADIVI Venezuelan Central Bank
Let's say my company needs $1 million to purchase parts to supply our inventory. This amount of money covers let's say 100 different types of parts. The procedure to get the $1 million is as follows:
You submit a list of the 100 parts to MILCO. MILCO is the government department that authorizes whether if a specific part may or may not be purchased with foreign currency. The principle for them is simple, and it goes something like this:
"MILCO will grant you permission to import a given part, if and only if, that part CANNOT be manufactured by Venezuelan labor"
Now this is a pretty vague definition, because as you can imagine, anyone can make about everything. The thing is, how actually true to the original fabricant product is we are talking about, regarding parameters like safety, funcionality and efficiency. Needless to say, until last year my company had received authorization from MILCO to import some parts, and rejection to import others. I kid you not, when I tell you that some of the most important parts our clients need to acquire DO NOT have authorization by MILCO. Let's keep on our example and we'll move on saying our of those $1 million on 100 parts, MILCO authorized 50 parts. By the way, MILCO doesn't pay attention how much worth are the parts. That is CADIVI's task.
Now we must go to CADIVI.
CADIVI is the government institution that regulates approval of acquisition of foreign currency, it regulates who receives foreign currency and how much do they recieve. More importantly, they also dictate, WHEN does anyone get the approved amount.
So as I was saying, let's say MILCO authorized me to import 50 parts and they are worth about $500,000. CADIVI now has to approve how much of those $500,000 can I get. Let's say they approve my solicitation for the 50 parts, but they only allow me to purchase $300,000. Sounds impossible? It's real, very real... and here comes the kicker: they approved I can purchase the money, let's say in about 4 months. So yes, that means I actually have to wait 4 months to go on with the purchase. Finally, they "honor their word" for about 1 month. That means that counting from the 1st day of the month I am able to go on with my purchase and I recieve my $300,000 from the Central Bank, I have 1 month to get all the shipment into Venezuela's customs, otherwise the company will face audits for attempted smuggling and potential penalties and fees.
So let's say I purchase the $300,000 in the now let's say uhmmm 25 parts (because of course there is no way I could make it to the 50 I needed), and for whichever reason, 20 parts make it on time and 5 don't. I now have to send an employee of my company to whichever port the 5 supplies arrived, and spend one or two days with a government official trying to proove that the 5 parts are of my possession, they are intended to be supplies for the company I work for and I should not pay any penalty fees. Let's say the government doesn't buy it and they hit me for the pieces.
So from $1 million in 100 parts that my inventory needed, 5 months later I'm now down to a break taking $300,000 in 20 parts and had to pay some ridiculous fees to get the other 5 out of customs.
Who is hurt?
Our clients for starters. They had to wait 5 months for a part they should have got right away. Our company. We can't make money if it takes so long to get things going. Plus, we have frustrated clients, who have their operations shut down because of us not being able to supply our inventory in a swift matter.
The end user (or, our client's clients). They get angry with our clients.
So what happed in 2014?
The government shut down CADIVI, on the base that it had served its purpose for the past year. Reality is, many many small businsses had been using CADIVI as a laundry machine to sell US Dollars in the Black market. The method was as simple as it gets: you buy cheap US Dollars (or Euros) from CADIVI, you sell them in the Black market for a 3x or 4x profit. Even if you applied for $100,000, if CADIVI approves you $40,000, you are still making a huge profit at a ridiculous price.
Of course, huge multinational corporations, like the one I work for, or Procter & Gamble, IBM, Telefonica, Toyota, cannot jump on this bandwagon. The reason is simple of course: firstly, we get repeatedly audited, both by the government and by our corporate headquarters, and secondly the Sabanes Act (Enron, anyone?). So we are left with no other choice but to do business with what we can, how we can.
Now the big question: are the money laundry accusations for real? Yes of course.
There is a local retailer called CompuMall. Sort of like a Venezuelan "Best buy" if you may. About three months ago, one of the government institutions that audit financial operations, discovered that the owner of CompuMall had been repeatedly applying for $100,000 a month to CADIVI, having received approval from MILCO to import Computers and computers parts... but the owner had been purchasing the computers from a US provider based in Florida, whose owner was no other than his own brother. Needless to say, they were immediately accused of theft and all the related charges you can imagine, and they were forced to reduce their prices to 90%. Today their stores are nearly empty and are on the verge of bankrupcy. Were their doings illegal? Of course they were, but here comes the question:
CADIVI has been existing since 2004. How is it possible it took TEN YEARS, for one of the many (more than twenty) government institutions that regulate these operations, to figure this out? The answer is obvious: corruption.
Extrapolating the case of CompuMall -which like I said is a known company here-, can you imagine how many small businesses applied the same formula over and over for ten years? Let's not be as pessimistic. Let's say five years. Even so!
Anyone in Venezuela could set up a five person company, that retails say... "thumb cushions for computer type employees who spend all day typing", and get cheap Dollars from CADIVI, buy cheap merchandise and sell it at an exhorbitant 15x price. It's just mind boggling.
Are there any businsses doing legal transactions with CADIVI? Yes of course. Like I said, most major players, like corporate multinationals and of course even some small businesses with strong ethics. But it doesn't matter, because as CADIVI kept approving less and less requests, our providers kept asking for more and more Dollars, and our companies kept requesting more and more credits or extensions.
On February 13th, Toyota shut down their operations because CADIVI had a tremendous debt of high hundreds of millions of Dollars not liquidated for approval. CADIVI also has debts around the billions of Dollars to most airline corporations. Last year, the liquidated $0 to airliners, so in response airlines issued a statement: they won't sell airline tickets to Venezuela, unless passengers pay using US Dollars upfront. CADIVI owes Polar, which is the local largest food supplier, over $400 million. CADIVI owes my company nearly a $1.5 billion.
So it all comes to this: how can a country run, if there is no currency to trade with other countries, and purchase the raw materiels that are needed to keep the country running? I'm talking about production plants, car parts, elevator parts, air condioner parts, water pump parts, you name it.
The reality is as follows:
When CADIVI was born, the Venezuelan Bolivar vs US Dollar exchange rate was around
while the international reserves sit somewhere around the premises of:
2007 = $50.000 million 2014 = $18.000 million
one third of that being in liquid US Dollars, while the rest is distributed in gold and foreign bonds.
So it's all sums up to all simple equation that the government somehow has not been able to figure out: SUPPLY vs DEMAND
During the initial times, MILCO and CADIVI were happiliy doing their job approving requests for acquisition of foreign currency. It didn't matter whether if the intent was valid or not, or how big or small your operation was. Money was there. Now that money is short, CADIVI is simply not able to liquidate as it should or as fast as it should. There is high demand but no supply, which creates a market distorsion that results in the mess we have today.
I am being utterly serious when I say, I have clients with paralyzed operations. I'm talking about clinics, malls, hospitals, industries, factories, personal businsses, because of this. Moreover, with a black market Dollar sitting at 7x the value of the official rate, it's almost impossible to a client to acquire the product using their own means without hurting themselves. To put things on perspective, imagine you want to buy a brand new Toyota Corolla, official market price tag is $15.000. But oh now.... since you can't buy at official rate, the actual price is 7x, meaning $105,000. How does that sound? It sound like being kicked in the balls in the middle of the night.
That is that about the access to foreign currency. On my next post, the division I was talking about at the beginning
I guess it's common knowledge that both sides are characterized by their distinctive outfits. Officialists sympathize with read, wearing red t-shirts and caps and hats, while the opposition normally wear whites. But that is just the beginning... there is something out there called "La Lista Tascon".
La Lista Tascon (translated means Tascon's List), is a list of names... as far away as you can imagine from Schindler's list. You see, like it or not.... Schindler's list was used for good, I mean, it was used to save people's lives from suffering living hell on concentration camps. Tascon's List on the other hand... well, let me explain:
I got to say, I was a bit skeptic when I came here and I heard the stories, I even thought that some people were just paranoid and borderline schizo, on the fact that there was a list that could potentially ruin your life... but when you start to listen to the same story, over and over again, from different people who have nothing to due with each other, and are shown the proof of that happens to you whether how your name is labeled on the list, the evidence just starts to pile up and it reaches a point where is simply overwheliming. There is no other choice to believe that the List exists and it is true.
The stroy goes, in 2004 there was a public consultation on whether if the Venezuelan people wanted Chavez to keep as president or not. People had to sign a petition, which would be taken to the electoral branch of the government to call an election. While many political figures supported (or detracted) the idea to sign a petition, one parlament representative who was a Chavez supporter, had a *brilliant* idea. Let's create a nationwide database of everyone who goes on the petition. Moreover, if you sign against the president, the database will show that you are an opponent of the president, and if you sign for the president, then you'll be shown as a president supporter. The representative's name was Luis Tascon, hence the name The Tascon's List (or La Lista Tascon).
Luis Tascon was known as a very "day-dreamer" politician. He was the kind of guy who spoke a lot and did nothing, so most people didn't really pay attention to his idea, or actually thought that he would go through with it... especially opposition people. To be honest, it seems that they underestimated Tascon's ability. The officialists at first didn't really care, since they would sign the petition for the president to continue, so what was to hide? A couple of weeks before the petition day, Tascon was named "government consultor" for operations of installing the computers on all voting centers. Tascon was an engineer and actually one of the few engineers who worked in the parlament, so again, it didn't really sound strange.
The day of signing the petition came, and rumours began circulating heavily that Luis Tascon had indeed moved forward with the list, and that the actual individual signatures of every venezuelan going to the voting centers, was being collected by Tascon's equipment. Again, keep in mind this was 2004, so like I said a lot of people didn't really believe, whether Tascon was able or even if he was, the technology was able, or that it would be reliable, etc...
The petition went and Chavez won, by a pretty decent margin... about 55-40, (with the reminder being undecided or void voting). Then came the breakthough.
In the following days for some unknown (or soon to be known) reason, people who signed against Chavez, coincidentally suddenly found themselves being laid off. Some with poor severance pay or poor whatever end negotiations. The excuses were many, some of them being company restructure, company capacity, whatever whatever, but some businesses were more sincere and straight to the point:
"I can't have you working for me. You signed against the president"
It gets more interesting.
People who signed FOR the president, somehow found themselves, either promoted or receiving huge bonuses, vacations, settlements, 401k (well the actual 401k doesn't exist here, but the equivalent) retirement funds, etc.
It gets even more interesting.
Unemployed people who applied at jobs (mostly government jobs) were now asked one particular question at their job interviews:
"Interesting qualifications, but... did you sign for or against President Chavez?"
Needless to say, those who signed for, got the jobs, while those who signed against, didn't.
At this point you're probably as skeptic as I was when I heard the story. Then one day last year I got undeniable proof. I was on a meeting with this client and we started talking about pretty much the situation in the country and somehow we got to the subject of the Tascon's List. He said something like "oh yes, my daughter got screwed over by it at an PDVSA job interview" (PDVSA is the government own oil company).
Then he said "do you want to see it?" I said "see what?" Which he replied "the list. I have it right here. I bought it a few years ago"
Turns out the list somehow found itself on public domain for a month or two, as probably a hacker (or a government traitor), made copy of the original file and sold it in sort of a pirate operation. The government however was quick enough to act and retrieve it in a matter of days, but by that time, hundreds if not thousand had already acquired it, including my client.
He then opened his desk drawer and pulled out a CD. labeled LA LISTA TASCON, with a Venezuelan flag on the background and a hand holding a pen as a cover. I was shocked. He inserted the CD and is as simple as you can imagine a visual basic program made by a college freshman of computer science: a search engine, that allowed you to query by name or by "Cedula" (the government ID), and a search button. As soon as you clicked on it, after a few seconds the screen would show the individual's:
1. Full name 2. Full address of his voting center 3. Full ID number 4. Whether if he had signed FOR or AGAINST the president.
I was speechless. It took me a few seconds to utter the words, "is this for real?"
He answered "I was walking on a street one day and I came across this street vendor who sold pirated DVDs, movies, playstation games, software, and he had it sitting there. He only had one copy, and it was prized Bs 45.000 (a very expensive amount, considering a pirated movie costs around 5.000). Let's play a game. Imagine, picture someone... anyone... anyone you know. Think of his political inclination, or at least what would you think is his/her political inclination, and let's find out how true they are"
I gave name after name after name. It consistently kept reporting whether if that person had signed or not, which would pair up from what I knew that person political affiliation was. I gave him clients names, coworkers, subordiantes, superiors, friends, neigbors, anyone.
One day I had this meeting with this accountant who was part of a project my company was incharge of. He was (is) an officialist. I knew this because he kept talking about Chavez and how good he was and etc. Apart from that he's very friendly and quite professional, so after meeting with him many times before, I asked him if he'd like to quit his job at the government and work for us. It took less than a second for him to say "no thanks".
"There is no way your company can compete with my current package" - he said "which is...? - I replied "dude, I get 10 months of salary as Christmas bonus"
Again, I had been shut up. Of course my company can compete with that, I thought. The real phrase is "there no way my company is going to compete with that". Again, more and more I pondered within my network... and again and again I was hit with overwhelming evidence. The Tascon's List, put you on the spotlight with the government, for good or for bad. I had this crew once, and one of the guys applied for a credit at a government bank. It was a real small credit, but still a credit for that being. Point is, he hadn't even left the bank when the credit was already approved.
Then came the doctrine.
Those working for the government, receive special instructions to attend any related political government activity: a march, a concentration, a festivity, whatever. If the government says you have to come naked to the office tomorrow, then hell, you WILL come naked into the office tomorrow. And the people of course come naked into the office (I'm exaggerating, but you get the point).
The Tascon's List has therefore created one of the greatest divisions (if not the greatest) seen in the history of the country. Ever since its public awareness, now every election is shadowed by the ghost of another Tascon List (or whatever name), and people who are against the government, are afraid to vote against the government because of all the benefits they may lose, if found out who they voted for. As an expat, I live in a building with other expats from other corporations. One day, we held sort of a party here, and one of them invited one of their clients, who was a government official. This woman started talking to me and she was definitely not a Chavez follower per se, or at least that's what I could feel from her. She was in her late 40s, divorced with two kids. I guess it was the few drinks she had, or maybe she just liked me, but at one point she just let it all out:
"look, I'm not going to tell you what my political affiliation is. I work for the government yes, but listen: they pay for my kids school, They give me 9 months of bonus every Christmas. Most companies give 1 and in the best cases 3. I'm a single mom, I want my kids to have a happy life. What am I supposed to do? Throw all of that away ? I'll never find a job where I can be so relaxed in these terms"
So to me, what she meant was that she was not going to throw away her stability, only to stay firm with her political beliefs, which was sign or do anything against Chavez. How would she? If so... she would have to have guarantee that she would find another job which such secure financial conditions. I thought to myself: "how many more people like this are there in this country?" But more importantly, who am I to judge them ? What would anyone do if placed on his/her shoes?
As I started to work with more government projects, I found myself more and more impressed by the mind job that is being pulled by the government. A client for instance, receives text messages.... yes, text messages on his cell phone, everytime he has to attend a government activity. He once showed it to me:
"My fellow revolutionaries. You are reminded to attend tomorrow's concentration at avenue -whatever- at 9am, dressed appropriately to defend the revolution"
I asked -"so what happens if you don't show up" he replied -"well, maybe your paycheck will be a little late, maybe you'll get demoted, maybe fired. who knows...nobody wants to find out" I replied -"even if you have a sick day with a medical recipe" he said -" once a guy tore his arm the day before and coulnd't attend. He's still looking for a job today"
The division created by the Tascon's list is real, it exists and more importantly, it has created a profound fear within the people.
Of course, I found what I just read shocking, but really this is very hard to believe, and I can't help but feel skeptical due to lack of proof, After all this is the internet, and silverman joined TL just to make this posts (it looks like it, joined february the 28th).
I'll look for more info because this definitely has my attention
So here we are... sitting on the first day of six straight festivity days announced buy the government two days ago. The reason: to celebrate 25 years of the people's protests on 1989 against the then sitting government. Imagine, if you will, your country passing a six-day festivity. How does this hurt the economy ? I'm quite sure your answer will be as good as mine.
Apart from the mentioned economic issue with the access to Dollars and the social division, the country has been facing many consequences of these two issues: I call them, Shortage and Denial
The first one is pretty simple and straight forward to explain, as long as you have basic understanding of the market, the economy and consumers:
1. With no money, production slows down (or shuts down in some cases). 2. No production, no products (or services). 3. No products, creates desperation among consumers, who in response start mass-buying, instead of simply buying. 4. Mass-buying leads to increase in production, but you can't increase production if you have no money or no means, and instead, you are forced to slow down or shut down production. 5. (Mass-buying) + (Slow down production) = Shortage
I wasn't living here when it began, but from what I can collect from my contacts, it first began with milk. Somehow suddenly, milk started to dissappear from the supermarkets. The government (MILCO, CADIVI, etc) didn't allow producers to import their factory parts, the government began subsidizing costs, the government began taking possession of the land... etc... point is, it came down to the point that IMPORTING milk was cheaper than PRODUCING milk locally. I'm talking about MILK. Not nuclear warheads, iPhones, hadron colliders or Rolls Royce. Plain pasteurized milk. So producers began slowing down until eventually they had no choice to shut down.
I dare anyone. In fact, I'd give that person $10,000 if that person goes to a supermarket right now (or tomorrow all day) and finds me a gallon of milk. I'm willing to give 100 to 1 odds that after 24 hours, that person will return to me with no milk in his hands.
Then it began spreading to other products, Milk derived products such as cream, baby milk, powder milk and then came a real big one: flour. Then it spread more and more to other products such as salt, oil and sugar. So what happens then (and this is something the government FAILS to understand).
Then comes a day when you arrive at your local supermarket, and for some unknown reason, there it is...sitting in front of you as if it was a pack of gold bars coming right from Forx Knox, only it's not gold bars. IT'S MILK !!! What do you think the consumer will do?
"Hell, I found Milk, Instead of the normal 1 or 2 gallons I normally get, let me buy 3 or 4 gallons, cause who knows when I'll ever see it again"
and that wait to see it again, which you projected to be two, three weeks maybe ? becomes two or three months. So the next time you see milk you'll go:
"Hell, I found Milk, let me buy 6 or 8 gallons, cause who knows when I'll ever see it again"
Repeat the process with sugar, salt, oil and flour and you have a bunch of people in supermarkets with their grocery carts so full it looks like the armageddon is coming. Moreover, this is a mindset the the consumer begins adopting into his daily routine of shopping. Now he doesn't shop like a normal human being (from a normal country). Now he shops in bulk.
They buy milk in mass quantities, sugar in mass quantities, tuna in mass quantities, cookies in mass quantities, and so on. They buy so many stuff in mass quantities, that eventually some products you'd thought to be impossible to suffer from shortage, are now somehow missing!
Three weeks ago, the girls at the office were getting worried, because they couldn't find razor blades for their legs. I kid you not. Two weeks ago, it was deodorant. Now, it's concrete. So whether if it's food, health or construction product, shortage has hit the country from all sides, which leaves me to the second consequence: denial.
The government has chosen to deny the shortage.
To the government the shortage exists because of two reasons;
1) There is an international conspiracy -captained by the US- that prevents Venezuelan industries to meet their production rates.
2) Consumers are poorly educated on consumption, and have become mass-buyers instead of purchasing what they actually need.
I'm not going to bother on explaining the reasoning behind (1), as yours will probably be as good as mine. (2) On the other hand I'll expand.
This is where the government has proven to be inefficient and very poorly educated on the system that we call market, supply, demand, which together creates the economy.
The government BLAMES the shortage on the consumer because they think the consumer buys in order to storage the products. So the government now calls consumers "the storage people", pretty much like those guys from The History Channel show, Storage wars. The error here is quite simple: consumers CANNOT storage.
A regular house size is ... let's say 2000 square feet. Out of that space, how much do you think, one can take in order to store large amounts of sugar, milk salt, oil, toilet paper, deodorant, razors, cream, etc. Not much right? Plus... it doesn't make sense. Even if you had the space, you would need the conditions: a closed closet, a proper fridge, whatever... because you're not going to risk having rats, roaches or bugs coming to get all that food, which like I said, it's physically impossible. Consumers are now mass-buyers because they have been driven to do so, not because they like to. I mean who likes unloading their car with 40 bags of groceries? Maybe 1 out of 10, but certainly not 10 out of 10!
Moreover, I remember arriving at this country, while the company was finding me a house, I stayed in a 5 star hotel. I can assure you: There was NOT a single day... or let's be more specific. I'm an american, which means, I like either my cereal for breakfast or my eggs and fried bacon with 1 fresh glass of milk. So, as I was saying... there was NOT a single day in that hotel, in which I went to the morning restaurant and there wasn't fresh cold milk for my cereal breakfast. Every single day I had a choice of either cold or warm milk, to drink with either my cereal or my eggs and bacon breakfast.
So where does this lead to? Corruption.
Who is and has the means to store hundreds of gallons of milk? Well, I can tell you. Not any of my neighbours or co workers. Not even myself.
5-star Hotels on the other hand, yes. Restaurants?, yes. Bakeries?, yes. Supermarkets ? no.
You see what the government fails to understand is a simple concept of accounting, that people can call a variety of ways: rotation, resupply, or even the most beautiful way to call it: FIFO
The government doesn't understand, that consumers gain nothing if they were supposedly using their consumism for storage purposes. The same applies for supermarkets. A supermarket makes no money if they store products. On the contrary, a supermarket makes MORE money, if they get rid of their inventory. Hence the acronym "first in, first out".
So instead, what does the government do ? Denial.
The government doesn't acknowledge the shortage because:
1. The sitting president quit school after 6th grade
2. The vice president is a sociologyst who graduated with a 2.0 GPA
3. The secretary of the economy is not an economist, nor an accountant. Instead, he's a colonel!
4. The vice president of the economy is an electrical engineer, who graduated with a 2.0 GPA from one of the most unheralded colleges in the country, without a masters degree or any degree in economy or accounting.
5. The president of the congress branch is a lieutenant colonel.
6. The former president of the country (Chavez) was a lieutenant colonel.
Please forgive me if you think I am judging, because I am not. I actually have a lot of respect towards the military and those people who graduate from non-Ivy League schools, let alone state schools or well-known schools. What I'm saying is to each his own. It takes skill, both academic and professional, to run a business, let alone a country. And some jobs are simply out of the league of some people if they don't have the ability to hold their own.
Either way, the news are out there and you can simply login to BBC, Reuters or whatever source you prefer. The government's position when question about the shortage is simply to deny it and to blame an international conspiracy against the country.
Facts are facts. The government simply doesn't understand the flow of the economy and has no other alternative but to make up an excuse to justify the problems. Let's say there is an international conspiracy. Even if it was, it is the government's responsibility to stop it and to assure the population feels no impact from any conspiracy -international or not- on their daily rutine as venezuelan.
Instead, how does the government respond? Last month, they passed a law that forbids ANY business to profit over 30% of the cost of ANY product or service sold. That is
1. Your company sells a product "A" 2. It costs $100 to make that product "A" 3. You may sell it for whatever amount you wish, but no more than $130.
Oh and by the way, when the law states "costs" it doesn't include indirect costs or taxes. Again, basic concepts of accounting 101 -if you may-.
This is called "the law of fair prices" (I kid you not) and it was issued about three weeks ago.
The government believes this law will:
1. Put an end to speculation on prices of products and services 2. Put an end to shortage 3. Increase production 4. Reduce mass consumption.
in a country where (as you read from my previous posts)
1. There is a currency exchange control, with a difference of 7x between official rate and blackmarket rate 2. MILCO and CADIVI drag down requests for currencies, to 20 to 25% 3. Multinational corporations have had no other choice but to reduce their production 4. People have been for over a year mass-buying products that suffer from shortage. 5. It is cheaper to import basic products (milk, cheese, cream, sugar) than to produce it locally in Venezuela.
On my next post, I'll discuss regionalism and economy stimulation
Those things arent really that surprising for anyone who lived in comunist country. The currency control for example resembles very much thigs we had in place (in Poland) before 1989. And the end result is the same.The collapse of eceonmy and lack of goods.The usual flaws of overregulated economies. Same goes for the list, its an old story. You are supporting the governament- You are receiving benefits. You are against it-You are being repressed. Maybe old time comunist didnt have computer list, but they did have secret police.
Again nice posts. But the problem isnt the education of governrmnt officials (they cant adress real isuees even if they understood them).. Its systemic flaw (belive me it was the same in Poland before 1989). The system is bad, but governemnt cant acknowledge it. Otherwise they would be throwing away the revolution (they would be denying superiority of their system over the capitalism).they cant to that. So they have to find other reasons. Who/ what is to blame? The sabotage of course, the enemies both outside the country and inside. The people that wish ill to our glorious revolution. Let us work toghter and fight them. For the revolution comrades!
Same old shit. Nothing new. All this shows is even petrol cant suport overregulation in economy.
The ideology in Venezuela's officialists is simple: you are either with us or against us. Plain and simple.
The people with us are:
1. Cuba 2. Argentina 3. Nicaragua
The people against us are:
1. USA 2. USA 3. USA ... ... ... 10. USA 11. Colombia 12. The EU
This has been something cultivated since the days of Chavez, who liked to called those against him using words like 'fascists, imperialists, capitalists" and so on. Like it or not, Chavez was a colourful and popular leader. Outspoken and very good at imposing himself. That is what made him stand among the poor, who found on him, the voice of them.
One of the earliest Chavez episodes was when he kept calling Jose Maria Aznar a "fascist" on a meeting where the sitting President of Spain, Zapatero and the King Juan Carlos were sitting. At one point Chavez simply lost it and kept repeating that Aznar was a fascist and on and on, so Zapatero asked him -quite politely- that while people can have different views and opinions on others, there must be respect among a meeting of such caliber. Chavez kept on ranting and kept interrupting Zapatero, until the King of Spain finally had had enough and yelled at him "why don't you shut up?"
You can view the whole episode here:
The main idea I want to bring with this, is that Chavez set a mindset on to all his followers and acquintaces, that either you are with them, or you are without them. However, this mindset ocasionally does not ring true within them.
I never knew Che Guevara. I wasn't born when he was around. Much less Lenin or Stalin. But to me, countries like the Soviet Union (yes, the old USSR) or Cuba, were proud of who they were. The soviets were proud of Sputnik, Laika, being always winners at the Olympics, having all the world chess champions, and stuff like that. You would never see a soviet doing a Nike commercial, or drinking Dr Peppers. Ivan Lendl's legacy was banned from Czechoeslovakia in the 80s when he played an exhibition match in South Africa. My point is, whether if some may consider your ideology right or wrong, if you are true to your beliefs, you have to live your beliefs. This is one subject, that the opposition has been quite resentful towards the government and there have been times in which they have gone as far as to make it as public as possible, although in my opinion, not as much as it should.
What I'm getting at is, that in a country where its government thrives for socialism, wants the poor to stay poor, sets so many barriers and walls at private industry, you'd normally expect that the government officialists would also follow this idea too.
I tried to search for this video with subtitles but I couldn't find it. Try taking a look at it first and then read my translation:
At that time Pedro Carreno (interviewed) was secretary of some government institute (I don't have handy which one). He has been known for some time as one of the government most loyal individuals. In the video he's saying (and Spanish speakers can back me up):
"The only path towards true justice is socialism. The bible says so and so does Commandant Chavez. The path is not that capitalism, that cannibalism that they want to implement..."
and then the woman reporter interrupts him to ask an interesting question:
"secretary, isn't contradictory to talk against capitalism, when you youself are wearing a Louis Vouitton tie and a pair of Gucci shoes?"
as you can see in the video, Mr Carreno was caught on the spot. He is stunned and has now words at first; then he tries to mouth and make something up. He says:
"I don't know what..."
"of course th...."
until he's finally able to say coherently
"it's not contradictory, because I would like that Venezuela could produce all of that, so I could buy it here and not import it instead like 95% of the products we consume"
The same mindset happens on lower sections of the officialism, like in their youth party. In this video a reporter questions a government youth representative's loyalty to his beliefs, again I couldn't find it with subtitles, so Spanish speakers back me up:
She tells him:
"I find a huge contradiction between what you say, and what you do. What brand are the shoes you are wearing? What brand are your pants and your shirt? Why don't you buy clothes from some of the local producers that have factories in Venezuela.
she goes on to say:
"there must be cohesion within your speech, but instead all you have is contradiction. If you are truly against the empire (The United States), then why do you keep supplying them with oil? Because here's the thing: the oil we sell them, they use it to fuel their planes and those are the planes that go to fight the very wars you are against"
As you can see, the kid is mute, silent and with no answer.
This happens in all parts of the spheres here. And believe me, the opposition people are no angels. It's not like the opposition leaders wear poor clothes or are against the US, or whatever. The opposition make huge political errors, over and over again, but if there is one thing they never do is contradict their beliefs. Either way that is not the point being here, because I want to talk about regionalism.
The first video shows Chavez in ranting mode, simply going over the same issue over and over again. He doesn't listen and doesn't let others to speak, which brings me to the question: How is anyone supposed to sustain a conversation with someone who doesn't listen and doesn't let you speak? Keep in mind this was a public worldwide president's conference, televised for millions all over the world. If he does that to the President of Spain, one can only wonder what could he do to his inner staff behind the scenes? Puzzling, right?
Chavez created a school of tunnel vision, with blinders and black and white glasses, which now his followers and his successor Maduro has enforced even more. Perhaps because he knows he's not Chavez, perhaps because he knows he's not as a natural leader as Chavez was. Either way, it is what it is.
The second video shows one of Chavez most loyal men, implementing that mindset into action, again in front of reporters, viewed by thousands. When questioned he found himself with no answer. He just replied whatever words he could find to get out of the heat. Reality is, a Louis Vouitton tie is very expensive; a pair of Gucci shoes are very expensive as well. I have nothing against anyone wearing expensive clothes, shoes or accesories, and I guess most of the opposition don't have anything against that either. The question is: if you so much preach about socialism, regionalism and country identity, then why act exactly the opposite way? I mean, why not buy another brand of tie? or say a cheaper one perhaps? For $100 you can buy a decent pair of shoes... so why buy ones that cost $600? I mean, you yourself JUST SAID capitalism and cannibalism were bad. Why not buy a pair of good homemade Venezuelan shoes and ties?
Say whatever you want about Evo Morales (president of Bolivia); if anything the guy has done it that he has always been true to his roots. He is an indian, and I don't say this to be classist or anything... I say it because he actually IS an indian. Everytime I watch him on TV he is always wearing an indian made apparel. I find that very interesting, because it is a message of identity of himself with his people. We can later have the discussion whether if it's appropriate or not for a President to wear that.
Back to the point, several government officials, employees, contractors, followers, etc... have been caught "on the spot" under this same pattern (or variations of it), and like I said before, this is something that angers the opposition, because you have:
1. Country leaders that despise capitalism 2. Country leaders against consumism 3. Country leaders against importations (or at least doing anything possible to prevent them) 4. Country leaders preaching about socialism 5. Country leaders who ask for respect
in a country where you have:
1. Country leaders who wear expensive ties and shoes 2. Country leaders who supply the US with fuel 3. Country leaders who buy imported clothes from brands that come from the US 4. Country leaders who are never seen wearing/using national products 5. Country leaders who do not respect others
This happens because the so called regionalism has blinded their vision. Cuba and Nicaragua are the utopy for them and end of story.
Is there any logic behind the fact that in his final days, Chavez was taken to Cuba to receive treatment for his cancer?
People ask questions like:
1. Why wasn't Chavez treated in Venezuela? Is there that low of confidence on Venezuela's health system? 2. Are hospitals in Venezuela not capable of treating cancer? 3. Why did a president had to be treated in another country? 4. Why Cuba specifically? Why not more advanced countries in medicine? 5. Couldn't cubans be flown in to Venezuela, so that the president could BE with his people?, even if he was not going to make it, as it turned up 6. Why all the secrecy with Chavez's sickness? To this day, no Venezuelan is certain of what Chavez was sick of. And it's not to be morbid or anything, but doesn't the people who elected (and even those who didn't) have the right to know what is wrong with their president?
and perhaps the two most important question of all:
7. Why on Earth, if Chavez knew (or was given) a fatal diagnose, did he run as presidencial candidate in 2012, when it was very likely he was not going to live past his presidential term, as in fact he died four months later? Why not be honest to the people of Venezuela?
8. How much money was spent flying Chavez over and over to Cuba (along with his family and friends), in the sense of the matter that well... he may be the president, but what hope does someone, an average individual who has cancer and who doesn't have the means to do so, and is doomed to be treated and/or die in a Venezuela hospital or clinic?
The answers to these questions remain part of a big puzzle, and are part of the issue why the Venezuelan economy is not stimulated, which is my second topic of the post.
How can the government stimulate the local economy, when the government itself doesn't believe in the local economy?
As a matter of fact, it does everything to stray away from stimulating it. Whether if it is wearing expesive clothes, supplying its worst enemy with the product they need, being disrespectful to potential allies just because they think different than you, and having your own president being treated outside your own country.
-What would the US citizen would think if Obama got cancer and he was treated in say Denmark? -Or germans if Merkel got cancer and was treated in Mexico? -What would Mexicans think if Pena would relate more with Justin Bieber than with his own culture?
So what occurs in Venezuela goes beyond from the political, sociological or economical conflict. It has now reached the morale boundaries of their very own system.
A local manufacturer would probably think something within the lines of:
"why should I bother creating a shoe industry. My shoes will always be seen as cheap and no one will wear them?"
or what a friend who is a physician from here once told me:
"why should a high school kid bother and study medicine? apparently the best medicine practice is now in Cuba"
Any grad school atendee or graduate should know about monetary policy and fiscal policy, and that one of the ways to stimulate the economy is to inject money into investments relating transportation: better, safer, larger, more convenient roads, highways, trains, airports, ports, etc. You see the system needs to flow, otherwise the system gets slower if there are barriers on it.
In 14 years, the government has built a handful number of roads, none of them vital to the geography of the country. Caracas has only two highways and one major avenue, that's it. Also, if you want to drive from east to west (and viceversa), you MUST drive through Caracas, so this collapses even more the transportation system. Well, you can actually drive around Caracas, but it would take you like 8 hours, instead of 3 hours of having to go through the city. Also, Caracas has only one major airport, that has only 26 gates (if I correctly recall). Any of the eight concourses of Miami's airport has more gates than Caracas' airport; or Atlanta's airport, or Paris' airport, or London's airport.
How is the economy supposed to flow, if there is only the bare minimum ways for it to flow?
Now let's add the elements we have of the equation and see what do we have:
1. Institutions with heavy restrictions on acquisition of foreign exchange.
2. Forced shortage due to a bottleneck policies on national production
3. Zero ability to have a friendly dialogue
4. One of the greatest sociological divisions ever seen in the history of the country (if not the greatest)
5. A delusional belief towards a regionalism that doesn't exist
6. Poor stimulation to the economy.
Feel free to do the add up, and post the result as you may.
On my next post, I'll discuss government achievements, because well, you have to be fair and there have been some good things achieved.
While the details are interesting, mostly it's just what we already knew: the government is grossly incompetent, and a whole lot of idiots in the populace brought this upon themselves with idiotic voting.
Well it's getting a bit late, my laptop's battery has about 90 minutes, so if I end up short on this post, I'll edit it tomorrow.
To be fair, the government has had some major achievements. After all, it has successfully stayed in power for 14 years. In fact, let's name that the first one.
Not since the 1920s has a Venezuelan government remain unchanged for more than 10 years. The last one, was a dictator who ruled for 27 years. The current officialism has been in power since 1999, winning a total of five presidential elections, plus the petition signature. In my opinion that's quite remarkable, whether if they achieved it by legal means or the previously mentioned of intimidating the population with the named unorthodox methods.
Placed that aside, the biggest government achievement has definitely been letting know that poor people are now heard. It does not necessarily mean, better quality of life of course. It may mean, slight empowerment over the middle class. It's like that movie "Goodfellas", when Henry Hill (Ray Liotta) is chatting with Jimmy Conaway (Robert De Niro), and they talking about that Tommy (Joe Pesci) was going to be "made" a boss. They say something within the lines of:
"Having Tommy made is as if one of us was being made, because well he is one of us. Neither Jimmy nor myself could be made, because we're not italian"
Poor people will likely never be president of a country, or governor, or major, or secretary of a major institution. I'm not talking about financially poor people. I'm talking about mentally poor people. The poor people who WANT to stay poor. The poor people who don't work, don't want to work, or barely work and want the government to give them everything and take care of them for the rest of their lives. Poor people who do not want to evolve, who don't have aspirations, dreams, goals, who wish for a better life. That's the kind of poor people I'm talking about.
Of course that financially poor people can become president, or successful businessmen, or celebrities. I mean there are countless examples. I think it was Jim Carrey who I read once built on a trailler. Roman Abramovic was an orphan. They were born FINANCIALLY poor, but they had ethics, will to work, and ambition. Unfortunately, those are not the poor people who live in Venezuela.
Poor people in Venezuela, are the ones I described. They live in free houses, built by themselves, with stolen electricity from a nearby plant, stolen water, stolen phone, etc. They don't go to school or don't care to go to school. But they have a voice, just as any human society has, and for several years, this voice was never heard in Venezuela... until Chavez.
The government for the first time in the history of the country, paid attention to the poor and it gave them something nobody had given to them ever: hope.
Though several institutions and activities, the government has created means to give a high school diploma to poor people in less than two years, and college diplomas in less than two years as well. How prepared are these people and how good are those degrees is part of another conversation, but your guess is probably as good as mine. The main point is, the people feel empowered. People who never knew how to read or write, or add or divide, all of a sudden find themselves high school graduates. People who under normal circumstances, would never be able to join a respectable college for academical reasons, (or even economical reasons on the case of private collges), suddenly find themselves able to attend a government college where you get a college degree.
Who cares if that degree is only valid in Venezuela and you can't work anywhere else in the world?... the world is like ... too far away. I want to work and live in Venezuela. Screw the US and the EU.... we don't need them.
As I see in the population's faces, I would rank this as one of the greatest achievements of the governments.
Then you have your typical achievements related to socialism policies. The government has created a network of institutions and government owned corporations, with the sole objective of taking care of the poor. There are four or five banks who give small credits to entrepeneurs, to stimulate start up businesses. There is a remarkable number of cuban run mini-hospitals, where mostly primary cares can be assisted, and there is of course a large sense of national socialism and adoration -if you will- of the Venezuelan socialist figure, alive or dead. That is, historical figures who were overwritten in the past have now gained notorious popularity, while the more noble figures have been slowly scrapped out of the books.
The government has also gained large control over communications, which some consider as achievement while some don't. The largest phone and internet provider is owned by the government, and so is the equivalent of the US's FCC. This has made that the local radio and television has been modified to suit a more national content and less imported programming. Some people question this policy at it leads towards censorship.
Major deals have been struck with China, Iran and Brazil on hundreds of projects involving cars, subways, construction, oil and gas exploration, and even two satellites. Some local producers have been lucky enough to find a way into a very tight competitive market, and benefits such as "socialist computers" and "socialist cell phone" are among the products that have been made. On the development side, an expat friend and neighbour works for Odebrecht and he tells me 90% of major government projects are run by them, including the conclusion and recovery of many unfinished or unstarted projects from previous governments.
To be fair... if someone asked me, I would say the scale doesn't balance when it comes time to measure achievements against faults. I would say, it's one of those cases where maybe the idea was good, it just was pooly executed. However illusion is a powerful thing and painting a picture is better than living in the reality. Those who understand business like myself, have to deal with the task of finding a way to make the business work, and the reality is that in Venezuela, at the current time, it is very very difficult to make a business work.
If the world didn't revolve around money, businesses, trading, goods, supply and demand, transport, and all those things, maybe Venezuela would be a great place. But we live in a world where the rest of the countries care about those things.
My laptop's battery has only a few minutes left and I want to go get some sleep. I hope you enjoyed the reading and more important than that, I hope that one way or another (preferably sooner than later), things start getting better in Venezuela. It's a really beautiful country and all the talk about their gorgeous women is completely true. Unfortunately the people have been driven to live in a system, that for whatever reason you consider, has divided them unequally and driven the country to the point we are today.
On February 28 2014 15:40 Boblion wrote: Really nice posts, way more interesting and informative than the usual marxist babble written by the resident philosophy grad students.
don't be a bitch bobli, i have mostly been posting relevant articles, not all of them from a colored source either (i study robotics for the record).
tl's first astroturfer arrives to deafening applause.
On February 28 2014 17:13 silverman-LG wrote: Poor people will likely never be president of a country, or governor, or major, or secretary of a major institution. I'm not talking about financially poor people. I'm talking about mentally poor people. The poor people who WANT to stay poor. The poor people who don't work, don't want to work, or barely work and want the government to give them everything and take care of them for the rest of their lives. Poor people who do not want to evolve, who don't have aspirations, dreams, goals, who wish for a better life. That's the kind of poor people I'm talking about.
... Unfortunately, those are not the poor people who live in Venezuela.
Poor people in Venezuela, are the ones I described.
On February 28 2014 16:16 Silvanel wrote: Again nice posts. But the problem isnt the education of governrmnt officials (they cant adress real isuees even if they understood them).. Its systemic flaw (belive me it was the same in Poland before 1989). The system is bad, but governemnt cant acknowledge it. Otherwise they would be throwing away the revolution (they would be denying superiority of their system over the capitalism).they cant to that. So they have to find other reasons. Who/ what is to blame? The sabotage of course, the enemies both outside the country and inside. The people that wish ill to our glorious revolution. Let us work toghter and fight them. For the revolution comrades!
Same old shit. Nothing new. All this shows is even petrol cant suport overregulation in economy.
Plus even if they could and had the understanding to do so the officials are more often than personally motivated to keep the system going as it is. They are not the ones that suffer, they actually gain (at least temporarily).
Wow, silverman - you should writing books! The chapter about the secret list was so much like a Hollywood movie, you would never think this can happen in reality! Thanks for good insights.
On February 28 2014 22:41 arbiter_md wrote: Wow, silverman - you should writing books! The chapter about the secret list was so much like a Hollywood movie, you would never think this can happen in reality! Thanks for good insights.
how do you know it happened, its just a single poster on a game forum claiming inside info...
As much as Venezuela's middle class might disagree with Maduro's government, CADIVI had allowed many of them to make personal gains at the expense of politics. "The result is that, in socialist Venezuela, those with access to foreign currency can propel themselves into the one percent, flying around the world and living in five-star hotels," Time Magazine's Girish Gupta wrote last month of CADIVI, "while locals earning in Bolívares battle one of the most expensive economies on the planet, struggling to find and afford basics such as cooking oil, chicken and toilet paper."
It's perhaps ironic that Maduro's seemingly sensible attempt to control the Venezuelan economy – clearly one of the country's biggest problems and a threat to the poorer people who make up his base – might have sparked the biggest protests of his short time in office. Without CADIVI, an unspoken agreement between Venezuela's middle-class the Socialist government could be over.
I can testify that all of silverman's posts are accurate and well informed.
The tascon list, as he wrote, is exactly what he described. My sister's boyfriend, is a Petroleum Engineer with a TSU on Geology. He wanted to work at PDVSA, it being the biggest and most important petroleum company in the country.
When he got to the interview process, he was asked if he had sign against the president in the referedum made against him. As he refused to reply, they searched him, right on his face on the spot, and the list showed he had signed against the president.
The interview was over right there.
It saddens me that the saying "Los ignorantes eligen presidentes" is more true now than ever. Since the poor people now have a "voice", the government gives them free houses, allowances, pays them monthly and whatnot, they don't have to work. Nor, they have to worry about anything, since well, everything is handed out to them at ease.
Those posts by silverman, do reflect the reality of the situation here regarding the exchange control. There was also corruption in CADIVI's system. Let's say I'm a business and I want $100,000. Those $100,000 until not long ago costed 6.3BsF/$, right?.
Let's say I'm a CADIVI-person and I "help" you get those $100,000 you need, but let's say I need to get something out of it, so I can move my influences and make that happen for you. Let's now put the price of those $100,000 at 16BsF/$. So I get something out of it and we all win.
We all win? Of course we do, it's better (a hell of a lot better) to buy at an exchange rate of 16BsF/$ than 30-40BsF/$ on the black market.
Around 2005-2006, individuals couldn't sell dollars to other individuals. For example, let's say I traveled to USA, and bought 3000$ but got back to the country with 1000$ extra that I did not spend. With that law, it was against the law to sell those dollars, because the government was the only one allowed to send/buy the currency. Around 2 weeks ago, a law passed that ALLOWED (Again) individuals to sell dollars to one another.
The first law prohibiting the selling/buying of dollars was passed under Chavez's mandate. The new one, is under Maduro's mandate. I guess they're trying to "mend" things up, but at this rate, the economy is cluster fuck, the price of the "official" dollar is now 11.8BsF/$ and the blackmark is rounding the 88-90BsF/$.
Why do we always reference the black market? Because unless you're going on a trip (and sometimes they don't even approve those), have a business (a big one) and need dollars for production, you're not gonna get any. So the "easy" way for everyone to get some more dollars (outside the annual cap set by the government of 2200$ for POS Purchases, 500$ in cash, and 300$ for internet usage) is to go to the blackpart and pay 8-9x the price of the official dollar.
I wholeheartedly thank silverman, since my english isn't as good as him for writing all of those long posts here and explaining the situation with a little more depth and clearness that I can do with this shitty english of mine.
I fear for my safety most of the days, but I fear for the safety of the childrens I hope to have one day on this beautiful country I call home.
On February 28 2014 17:13 silverman-LG wrote: Poor people will likely never be president of a country, or governor, or major, or secretary of a major institution. I'm not talking about financially poor people. I'm talking about mentally poor people. The poor people who WANT to stay poor. The poor people who don't work, don't want to work, or barely work and want the government to give them everything and take care of them for the rest of their lives. Poor people who do not want to evolve, who don't have aspirations, dreams, goals, who wish for a better life. That's the kind of poor people I'm talking about.
I like your insights, but this paragraph nearly discredited all you had written before IMO. Your thinking is so repugnantly bigoted, you should really take time to reflect on yourself. The notion that, the poor in essence don't want a better life and the rich deserve it all because they 'worked harder' is pure propaganda.
On February 28 2014 16:23 silverman-LG wrote: 4. Why Cuba specifically? Why not more advanced countries in medicine?
Like whom? From wikipedia: According to the World Health Organization, Cuba provides a doctor for every 170 residents, and has the second highest doctor-to-patient ratio in the world after Italy.
Cuba attracts about 20,000 paying health tourists, generating revenues of around $40 million a year for the Cuban economy. Cuba has been serving health tourists from around the world for more than 20 years. The country operates a special division of hospitals specifically for the treatment of foreigners and diplomats. Cuba also successfully exports many medical products, such as vaccines.
Kofi Annan stated that "Cuba should be the envy of many other nations" adding that achievements in social development are impressive given the size of its gross domestic product per capita. "Cuba demonstrates how much nations can do with the resources they have if they focus on the right priorities - health, education, and literacy."
Interesting thread for sure, going to have a more in-depth read of it later but makes a welcome change from some of the other threads of this ilk that oft degenerate into mudslinging and arguments.
On February 28 2014 17:13 silverman-LG wrote: Poor people will likely never be president of a country, or governor, or major, or secretary of a major institution. I'm not talking about financially poor people. I'm talking about mentally poor people. The poor people who WANT to stay poor. The poor people who don't work, don't want to work, or barely work and want the government to give them everything and take care of them for the rest of their lives. Poor people who do not want to evolve, who don't have aspirations, dreams, goals, who wish for a better life. That's the kind of poor people I'm talking about.
I like your insights, but this paragraph nearly discredited all you had written before IMO. Your thinking is so repugnantly bigoted, you should really take time to reflect on yourself. The notion that, the poor in essence don't want a better life and the rich deserve it all because they 'worked harder' is pure propaganda.
Seems like you did not read my post. These people do want to stay poor, they don't want to work, or have responsibilities. Their only concern is getting through the day, and with the allowances that the government gives them, they are fine by all means.
What is the problem with reflecting reality? I'd love for you to come to Venezuela, and interview people from the poorer zones of the country, Petare, Catia and so on. They love being there, even though they are "controlled" by prans and colectivos. They are the rulers of those parts of the city, and the government is too scared to bring the GNB and Police there because somehow, those groups or colectivos, have more gun power than they do.
On February 28 2014 17:13 silverman-LG wrote: I'm talking about mentally poor people. The poor people who WANT to stay poor. The poor people who don't work, don't want to work, or barely work and want the government to give them everything and take care of them for the rest of their lives. Poor people who do not want to evolve, who don't have aspirations, dreams, goals, who wish for a better life. That's the kind of poor people I'm talking about.
On March 02 2014 00:22 funkie wrote: These people do want to stay poor, they don't want to work, or have responsibilities
poor people are the worst. if they weren't terrible people they'd be born into the middle-class in no time.
On February 28 2014 17:13 silverman-LG wrote: I'm talking about mentally poor people. The poor people who WANT to stay poor. The poor people who don't work, don't want to work, or barely work and want the government to give them everything and take care of them for the rest of their lives. Poor people who do not want to evolve, who don't have aspirations, dreams, goals, who wish for a better life. That's the kind of poor people I'm talking about.
On March 02 2014 00:22 funkie wrote: These people do want to stay poor, they don't want to work, or have responsibilities
poor people are the worst. if they weren't terrible people they'd be born into the middle-class in no time.
A lot of the chances given by the government to study and to get degree's are used by them, and then again you find that they don't really use those studies after all. They just have to get a degree and not use it for real life work.
I'm talking about something I see everyday in my country. I have friends, family and wahtnot that are with the government, they support their shitty politics and what not. But they do work and they do like to live well. The difference? commodity. They don't want to get out of their comfort zone, same shit happens with rich people.
They are born rich and they'll most likely stay rich. By selling huge amounts of USD$ to people looking to solve production problems and whatnot.
Happens in every country, just that the government gave a voice to these people and well, they don't want the current regime to fall, since, their "allowances" will be taken away unless they decide to work and support themselves. But the economy doesn't allow that, does it? No productions means no jobs to hire.
Edit: For the record, I used to think I was "Middle-Class" now I barely even make money to survive on a monthly basis, and we have 3 working people in my house. My mum and sister work and they also put money on the table to support the whole house. I consider myself a "barelyMakingIt-class". :p.
Quality of life isn't what it used to be, the shortage of simple things has made the average Venezuelan paranoid about what will happen next.
Today is the fourth straight festivity day declared by the government and as I was comfortably sleeping in the early hours of the morning, I was awaken by the sound of patrolling Sukhoi jets flying all over the city. I never knew what they were doing, and I can only infer they are preparing some kind of manouver for an exhibition that may perhaps be held on wednesday, since it's the first year or Chavez's death anniversary. It really mind-boggles that the country starves for food and basic services, while the government spends who knows how much money on pointless military displays.
On a sidenote, I would like to clearify, although I know this is a gamer's forum, I am not a gamer... at least not anymore. I was a gamer though and I was among the first year members and contributors of this wonderful site. I like the community here and have always felt attached to it, I guess in some sort of nostagic way. I posted before, I'm an american, over 30 years old, working as an expat for a multinational corporation. At the current time, I'm assigned here in Venezuela. I have a mid-high management position in the company and have completed undergraduate and graduate studies. Judging by the way I write and on the facts I post, you can definitely affirm I'm not in my 20s, much less in my teens, and I'm as serious as I can be, I am very well informed about the situation and every word that comes out of me is accurately documented and well referenced. I saw the thread a couple of nights ago, browsing like I said with not much to do at home, since corporate orders us not to leave the neighborhood (even if they didn't, I wouldn't), and given that I saw most of the posts lacked the depth and real context I embrace, I decided to jump in the discussion. I have to say, I registered a new account because it's been so long I had posted here, I forgot my old account details, and honestly I'd rather open a new one over going to the trouble of trying to recover the old one. That being said, let's move on with the update I wanted to share.
The country is in such a depressed state, that 30% of my neighors decided to hold a community barbecue at the pool area. Keep in mind almost all my building is occupied by expats, meaning people who should normally not be fond of socializing. Since there is nothing to do and nowhere to go, at least people start to bond.
As I spend time with my community, I wanted to add another case I wanted to share, and is a prime example of how things are in Venezuela.
The company I work for has (like any other major corporation) a segmentation of clients ala 80-20, meaning you have your regular clients, your important clients and your VIP clients. I remember when I arrived to this country, one of the first things I got to do was to analyze our portfolio of VIP clients, in order to generate business opportunities, partnerships, etc. I remember there was one client, whose contribution to our company was an astounding $0. This rang weird to me, so I did a little reseach within the employees and that is when I could understand what was going on. The client's name was "Confinanzas" and that name said, most Venezuelan's will probably know what I'm about to say.
Confinanzas was a financial group that emerged as one of the most developed and outcoming institutions in Venezuela in the late 80s and early 90s. Its CEO was a brilliant guy called David Brillembourg, and the following segment I do not have actual literal references and will be posted mostly from what I heard from word-of-mouth.
Supposedly David Brillembourg was an incredibly talented and brilliant business man, the kind of whose biggest strength was also his biggest weakness: he trusted no one. He kept a strong executive management team, which was made up mostly by his relatives, as he needed to be the decision maker in the corporation. It is said that every single major decision regarding the business had to go by David, which was considered good since he was so brilliant. It took David less than 10 years to put Confinanzas among the top financial institutions on the company and the way it was growing, it seemed that it would be matter of time for Confinanzas to be the number one financial institution of the country. At this point I end the word-of-mouth part of the story and resume with factual events.
While still escalating towards the top, Confinanzas had a so-so headquarters building, located in the old downtown area of Caracas, so David had a terrific idea: since Confinanzas was set to become the premier corporation of the country, Confinanzas deserved a premier headquarters building.
Around the end of the 80s, David set up quick meetings with the top construction companies in the country. Architects, engineers, la creme de la creme was in the project, and they set up to build the building called Confinanzas Tower in an up and coming neighborhood called "San Bernandino". David's idea was (in his own words) to transform San Bernandino into the "Wall Street of Latin America". He envisioned that after Confinanzas Tower would be finished, other banks and financial institutions would follow suit and start developing the area, pretty much ala Wall Street.
Swift negotiations followed and construction for Confinanzas Tower began and went on as quick as you could see it. Like I said, only top corporations were involved in it: world class construction, glass, floors, lightning, elevators, water system, air conditioning system, urbanism, health, you name it. The building rose as quick as you can say Confinanzas. Unfortunately, as quick as it rose, a quick downfall would come. David was diagnosed with cancer and he died in less than two years. The project was left with no leader, and to make matters worse, the company was left with no leader. Like I said before, David's strength was also his weakness: he left no successor and most of the top executive managers were not able to run the business, not by a long shot as well as David could. By the time the board of directors realized they need to hire a new team of executives, too many issues and problems had piled up in the company. Some executives quit, while others were unable to perform at the extend that was needed. With David out of the picture, the boat without a captain began to sink. So sadly... Confinanzas Group collapsed.
By 1995 construction was about at 80% of completition, however with no funding from the corporation, one by one providers were forced to abandon the project and in a matter of weeks there wasn't a single soul working in the building, leaving the dream completely paralyzed. In a matter of weeks, Confinanzas went bankrupt and the dream was now over.
FOGADE (Venezuela's equivalent of the FDIC), took over the assets of Confinanzas, including the 80% complete Confinanzas Tower. For the year 1995, the building -even without being fully finished- was gorgeous. The exteriors were jaw dropping spectacular, and the interiors were equally astounding. We are talking about a 46 floor complex of buildings, divided in seven smaller buildings that included the main headquarter offices of Confinanzas, other offices to rent, a mall, a 5-star hotel, a heliport, an entire building just for parking lot, and an entertainment and convention center. All of this unheard of in Latin America at the time. The building could literally compete and hold its own against any major corporate building from Wall Street, and even overpower it.
Anyway, FOGADE (pretty much like the FDIC) is not an asset manager, so they set up to sell the building to any potential investor interested in finishing it and of course become its owner. I honestly don't have the exact figure of the pricing, but from what I understand it is quite straight forward to picture that a structure of such magnitude had a very high price, (not necesarily expensive, meaning over valued or priced higher than it's actual value), but for what it was actually worth, even with FOGADE selling it at a "break-even" price. Supposedly the price was so high several negotiations asked for a 40% discount and still were not able to meet the payments.
Time passed by and by the late 90s Confinanzas Tower could not be sold, so FOGADE took the idea of place it in auction. However once again, no investors could afford it, so it was impossible to sell it. FOGADE made an attempt to sell it to the government for a real bargain price, but once again no actual deals could be made. Then came Chavez.
Chavez takes possession as president of Venezuela in 1999, and among many of the so called socialist policies he encouraged, was the one called "expropiation" and/or "invasion of unused property". Whether it was by coincidence or not, somewhere around the year 2007, the unfinished Confinanzas Tower, was now home of ten families who didn't have where to live, and chose to pack up their bags and set a humble home in the abandoned Confinanzas Tower. Then, this number began to grow: twenty families, thirty families, fifty families, one hundred families... and so on. The once set to become Venezuela's third tallest building, Latinamerica's eight tallest building, Confinanzas symbol of triumph and power, the pristine prestige premier center building of Caracas financial neighborhood, was now the tallest slum in the world. The once almighty Centro Financiero Confinanzas
was now known to Venezuela as La Torre de David (David's Tower).
As of today 2014, it is believed that over SEVEN HUNDRED families live in David's Tower.
San Bernandino never became the "Wall Street of Caracas". Instead it declined to become one of the worst and most dangerous neighbourhoods in the city. I for one (as many as the stories I have posted before) simply couldn't believe it. I had to go and see it with my own eyes. About two months ago, I took my car and drove by it. I parked my car in a nearby spot about a quarter of a mile from it and got out and looked up to the immense of this huge complex structure, and closed my eyes for one second and imagined what would have become of it, along with its surroundings, had it been finished. I then opened my eyes and saw nothing but the full victory and conquest of Chavez's incompetence as the leader of a government that supposedly wants to provide with this country with a revolutionary better way of living.
For those wondering, you can't really park your car right infront or next to the building. The habitants built a closed wall and it actually looks like the Vatican would look like in Rome. I did a little reseach on the building and came up with a couple of documentaries, which you can watch here, or read the summary I write below.
Over 2.500 people live in the building. They organize themselves in informal communities. Each community has a leader and each leader reports to this one guy who is called "The Chief of the Tower". Not much is known about him, other than he is a well connected drug-dealer, who pays his dues to the government in order to operate the tower.
As you can imagine, the living conditions are barely human as most basic services are stolen from nearby plants, and set up in whichever means possible by the people who live there.
There are no elevators at all in the tower, which means people must climb steps until they reach the floor where they live. Some people who live in the top floors, don't even leave the building, for obvious reasons of how troublesome it is. There is a motorcycle taxi service that charges Bs 50 (about $10) a ride to people.
Given the enormous amount of people living in the tower -each with a variety of wants and needs- several businesses have emerged within the building. It is known the building counts with:
-2 quick-e-markets -1 barber shop -1 pharmacy (well... pharmacy...) -1 dentist (or should I say, 1 person who removes teeth for money, without anesthesia)
No property is sold in the building, which means every habitant, business owner or home, has to pay RENT. Rent is about $50, and HOA fees (yes, the community leaders ask for HOA fees) are around $15. Since power, phone, cable and all of those services are stolen, they are free.
I post this because I read a user questioning my conception and definition of "poor people". I once again state that I am not being either classist or rascist. When I say "poor people" I actually mean people who are poor financially, culturally, socially and more important of all... MENTALLY. I made a point saying there are hundreds of examples of current millionaires who were born poor, meaning with no money or family or decent friends, but somehow made their way by study and hard work and became what they are today.
The people who live in Confinanzas Tower, well, let me not generalize and rephrase that again. The majority of the people who live in COnfinanzas Tower, are not people with no money or family or decent friends, but want to make a decent living and get something better. The people who live in Confinanzas Tower, apart from being financially poor, culturally poor, socially poor... are MENTALLY POOR. They want to live that way. Moreover, they ENJOY to live that way.
My point is: hey, I know sometimes things don't work out for people. I know there are some people who are born into this world without any stars and are forced to say prostitution, drugs, traffic, battery, criminalism, whatever. But hey: there is always the will to change that.
There is the red cross, the AVAA, the ACISC, the catholic church, the muslim church, the protestant church, several ONGs and non-profit organizations that can help you and well, maybe not set you on a nice 2/2 condo with DirecTV and high-speed internet, but at least a decent roof where you can set a decent life for yourself and your family.
The majority of the people living in David's Tower, don't seek help, but what is even worse: DON'T WANT HELP. Think about it for a second. Why would anyone in their sane mind would want to live in a building filled with criminals and low lives, having to go though all that living hell? Did these people try to earn a decent living?
Let's say someone lives in David's Tower. Where does this person work? As a clerk in a bank? Does this person go to school? What does this person lists as his billing address? Can someone go and visit a friend at David's Tower? Is access granted as easily as in a gated community or a public neighborhood? I don't think so.
Reality is: like it or not, the majority of the people who live in David's Tower are informal workers, and a high percentage of that majority includes criminals. Supposedly several people have been kidnapped and held captive in David's Tower, while the ransom is negotiated with their captors.
My issue here is simple: why did the government let it come to this?
1. If the government couldn't find a buyer for the building, why not find a foreign investor?
2. If the government could buy the building (and please don't tell me Venezuela's government selling 3 million daily oil barrels at $100 a barrel, is not able to buy the building even on a financed set of payments), why not buy it and make something out of it?
3. If the government sees the people taking control of the building and seeing the conditions how these people live, why not relocate them out, or if you're going to let them live there, at least FINISH the building and make it habitable? Just because you can put four walls and a roof together, doesn't mean that place you call home is habitable.
4. Nobody knows how many people live injured, are hurt, are born, need medical attention or even die in David's Tower. Even if so, how is ANYONE supposed to access the building to get them out?
5. What are the Taxes paid by the people who live there? Or the businesses that operate there? Overall, what is the contribution that these people give to the government? I'll tell you very quickly, the same contribution that Confinanzas Tower brings to my company as a VIP client: $0.
6. Venezuela is a 900.000 square kilometer country. Of all the many places you can find and build a home from scratch. Why has the venezuelan people been doctrined that, the easier way is to simply walk-in an abandoned unused, unfinished, unsafe place and make that home?
A building that was on 80% of completition, actually has now been set back to around 50% of completition, with its current habitants destroying it.
David Tower by the way is just one of many abandoned buildings that today serve as home for several families in the same condition. San Bernandino was set to become the financial downtown center of the city, but instead it's now a waste dump of society. The actual financial downtown, a county called "Chacao" also has an abandoned building in conditions similar to David Tower. It's a small one, only about 8 floors high and I guess maybe 10.000 sq feet of area, but still it's there and people don't even come close to it. There are about a couple of dozen more in the city and who knows how much more in the country. Of course, the most iconic of all is Centro Financiero Confinanzas aka La Torre de David.
My issue here is simple: why did the government let it come to this?
And why did the people let their government choose inaction etc. I take it the answer is just another one of those power plays with the military, dictators like Chavez doing what dictators do (and my my my that LIST, oh my god). From the political philosophy standpoint, no social contract, just live for the sake of living, and like some in the linked documentary, housing is a right--and that whole package of ideas. It's so saddening.
On February 28 2014 17:13 silverman-LG wrote: I'm talking about mentally poor people. The poor people who WANT to stay poor. The poor people who don't work, don't want to work, or barely work and want the government to give them everything and take care of them for the rest of their lives. Poor people who do not want to evolve, who don't have aspirations, dreams, goals, who wish for a better life. That's the kind of poor people I'm talking about.
My issue here is simple: why did the government let it come to this?
And why did the people let their government choose inaction etc. I take it the answer is just another one of those power plays with the military, dictators like Chavez doing what dictators do (and my my my that LIST, oh my god). From the political philosophy standpoint, no social contract, just live for the sake of living, and like some in the linked documentary, housing is a right--and that whole package of ideas. It's so saddening.
Ya except the government according to his story took the assets of a failed financial institution -- including that tower -- over in 94. 5 years before Chavez, so it seems like inability to properly use state asset doesnt seem its only a Chavez thing.
@ silverman-LG Again, interesting post (though I already knew about David's Tower), but sadly your prejudices still came through.
You realize this has little to do with political systems, right? I could write similar bleak stories about Detroit suburbs. God forsaken rundown places full of criminals, abandoned by police, forgotten by the government, sound familiar?
On March 02 2014 14:38 Danglars wrote: What a story! How sad...
My issue here is simple: why did the government let it come to this?
And why did the people let their government choose inaction etc. I take it the answer is just another one of those power plays with the military, dictators like Chavez doing what dictators do (and my my my that LIST, oh my god). From the political philosophy standpoint, no social contract, just live for the sake of living, and like some in the linked documentary, housing is a right--and that whole package of ideas. It's so saddening.
Ya except the government according to his story took the assets of a failed financial institution -- including that tower -- over in 94. 5 years before Chavez, so it seems like inability to properly use state asset doesnt seem its only a Chavez thing.
It took a great tragedy to turn it into an even greater tragedy. Invasion of unused property, as he says, without the corresponding, "shit guys, sell it to foreigns to finish/condemn & board it up/finish it yourself to repurpose for housing."
You realize this has little to do with political systems, right? I could write similar bleak stories about Detroit suburbs. God forsaken rundown places full of criminals, abandoned by police, forgotten by the government, sound familiar?
It's not like you can't draw parallels from the local politics of Detroit to the national politics of Venezuela. Really nothing he says is about political systems per say. The focus is on malfeasances of politicians, public policies, incapable leadership, and some corruption of attitudes. With regards to the last point, the shock felt when he sees the human condition/human spirit reformed.
I have a few Venezuelan friends and this is just fucking sad. Thank you silverman-LG for your posts.
However, just maybe, people who know that the poor people who got their 2 year degrees don't want to hire them and it's not their fault.
What's worse is that I have a Venezuelan friend telling me this when I said that 60Bsf for a simple lunch is ridiculous, that over here a simple lunch costs RM6 :
A normal working person earns 3000Bsf and a student with a minimal scholarship gets 400Bsf. Hence, honestly 60Bsf for a lunch meal isn't a problem. You must know that your currency is weaker than ours, that's why you think it's expensive. But really, the amount we pay for food is really very cheap in comparison to our currency.
una persona común que trabaja gana 3000bsf un estudiante becado minimo gana 400 entonces sinceramente 60 no es nada xD debes saber que tu moneda es mas baja que la nuestra por eso se tan barato... pero realmente la comida que pagamos tambien es realmente muy barata comparandola con la moneda de aqui nada mas
And later when I said that a black market exists for USD because of government policies making obtaining it difficult this was the response I got:
It's not actually difficult but rather that they limit the amount you can get, and people WANT MORE than what is given to them. For example a friend wanted to travel but there were 7 of them and only 2 had the CADIVI quotas and they didn't have enough and wanted more.
no tanto que sea dificil conseguirlo es limitante... dificil no, es que te limiten sí y la gente QUIERE MAS de lo que le dan... ejemplo una amiga queria viajar pero ellos eran 7 y solo dos tenian cupo cadivi entonces obviamente lo que tenian no era suficiente así que querian mas... es limitante... no dificil conseguirlo me entiendes?
You can correct me if I understood anything wrongly.
Later she says, "it's not difficult, you only have to wait for 4-6 months" . Like it's the most normal thing in the world.
On March 02 2014 20:42 JieXian wrote: I have a few Venezuelan friends and this is just fucking sad. Thank you silverman-LG for your posts.
However, just maybe, people who know that the poor people who got their 2 year degrees don't want to hire them and it's not their fault.
What's worse is that I have a Venezuelan friend telling me this when I said that 60Bsf for a simple lunch is ridiculous, that over here a simple lunch costs RM6 :
A normal working person earns 3000Bsf and a student with a minimal scholarship gets 400Bsf. Hence, honestly 60Bsf for a lunch meal isn't a problem. You must know that your currency is weaker than ours, that's why you think it's expensive. But really, the amount we pay for food is really very cheap in comparison to our currency.
una persona común que trabaja gana 3000bsf un estudiante becado minimo gana 400 entonces sinceramente 60 no es nada xD debes saber que tu moneda es mas baja que la nuestra por eso se tan barato... pero realmente la comida que pagamos tambien es realmente muy barata comparandola con la moneda de aqui nada mas
And later when I said that a black market exists for USD because of government policies making obtaining it difficult this was the response I got:
It's not actually difficult but rather that they limit the amount you can get, and people WANT MORE than what is given to them. For example a friend wanted to travel but there were 7 of them and only 2 had the CADIVI quotas and they didn't have enough and wanted more.
no tanto que sea dificil conseguirlo es limitante... dificil no, es que te limiten sí y la gente QUIERE MAS de lo que le dan... ejemplo una amiga queria viajar pero ellos eran 7 y solo dos tenian cupo cadivi entonces obviamente lo que tenian no era suficiente así que querian mas... es limitante... no dificil conseguirlo me entiendes?
You can correct me if I understood anything wrongly.
Later she says, "it's not difficult, you only have to wait for 4-6 months" . Like it's the most normal thing in the world.
Of course it's difficult. I don't know what country your friends lives on. The problem here is that we need to ask the government first for permission to access some foreign currency so we can travel. It's like asking the government if you can travel, and if they are "willing" to give you some money so you can travel well.
Does that sound logical? fuck no. Keeping a exchange control to "preserve the patrimony of the country" has done more harm than good to the country, due to government officials creating "fake businesess" and stealing a shitton of money by asking CADIVI for money.
You think that 500$ in cash, 2200$ in credit card and 300$ on internet expenses is logical in a country that sells a shitton of oil barrels a day for 100$ a pop? absurd.
On March 02 2014 20:42 JieXian wrote: I have a few Venezuelan friends and this is just fucking sad. Thank you silverman-LG for your posts.
However, just maybe, people who know that the poor people who got their 2 year degrees don't want to hire them and it's not their fault.
What's worse is that I have a Venezuelan friend telling me this when I said that 60Bsf for a simple lunch is ridiculous, that over here a simple lunch costs RM6 :
A normal working person earns 3000Bsf and a student with a minimal scholarship gets 400Bsf. Hence, honestly 60Bsf for a lunch meal isn't a problem. You must know that your currency is weaker than ours, that's why you think it's expensive. But really, the amount we pay for food is really very cheap in comparison to our currency.
una persona común que trabaja gana 3000bsf un estudiante becado minimo gana 400 entonces sinceramente 60 no es nada xD debes saber que tu moneda es mas baja que la nuestra por eso se tan barato... pero realmente la comida que pagamos tambien es realmente muy barata comparandola con la moneda de aqui nada mas
And later when I said that a black market exists for USD because of government policies making obtaining it difficult this was the response I got:
It's not actually difficult but rather that they limit the amount you can get, and people WANT MORE than what is given to them. For example a friend wanted to travel but there were 7 of them and only 2 had the CADIVI quotas and they didn't have enough and wanted more.
no tanto que sea dificil conseguirlo es limitante... dificil no, es que te limiten sí y la gente QUIERE MAS de lo que le dan... ejemplo una amiga queria viajar pero ellos eran 7 y solo dos tenian cupo cadivi entonces obviamente lo que tenian no era suficiente así que querian mas... es limitante... no dificil conseguirlo me entiendes?
You can correct me if I understood anything wrongly.
Later she says, "it's not difficult, you only have to wait for 4-6 months" . Like it's the most normal thing in the world.
Of course it's difficult. I don't know what country your friends lives on. The problem here is that we need to ask the government first for permission to access some foreign currency so we can travel. It's like asking the government if you can travel, and if they are "willing" to give you some money so you can travel well.
Does that sound logical? fuck no. Keeping a exchange control to "preserve the patrimony of the country" has done more harm than good to the country, due to government officials creating "fake businesess" and stealing a shitton of money by asking CADIVI for money.
You think that 500$ in cash, 2200$ in credit card and 300$ on internet expenses is logical in a country that sells a shitton of oil barrels a day for 100$ a pop? absurd.
Yea I know (referrerring to the first paragraph), I've been trying to convince her that this isn't the way things should be and she refuses to listen because I'm "looking in from outside", and that I shouldn't criticise her country.
She thinks CADIVI controlling the money has nothing to do with the government, that it's related to the banks, that the currency control mainly affects the companies and not regular people because the quota/ allocation is enough for traveling. And that the limitation is only a problem to people who WANT MORE than what is given.
I tried what I could and I'm still trying to convince her, but it's hard when she insists that I need to be there to understand how it is and not solely rely on what people say. Funkie, you're probably fedup of listening to this but I thought others might be interested.
On March 02 2014 20:42 JieXian wrote: I have a few Venezuelan friends and this is just fucking sad. Thank you silverman-LG for your posts.
However, just maybe, people who know that the poor people who got their 2 year degrees don't want to hire them and it's not their fault.
What's worse is that I have a Venezuelan friend telling me this when I said that 60Bsf for a simple lunch is ridiculous, that over here a simple lunch costs RM6 :
A normal working person earns 3000Bsf and a student with a minimal scholarship gets 400Bsf. Hence, honestly 60Bsf for a lunch meal isn't a problem. You must know that your currency is weaker than ours, that's why you think it's expensive. But really, the amount we pay for food is really very cheap in comparison to our currency.
una persona común que trabaja gana 3000bsf un estudiante becado minimo gana 400 entonces sinceramente 60 no es nada xD debes saber que tu moneda es mas baja que la nuestra por eso se tan barato... pero realmente la comida que pagamos tambien es realmente muy barata comparandola con la moneda de aqui nada mas
And later when I said that a black market exists for USD because of government policies making obtaining it difficult this was the response I got:
It's not actually difficult but rather that they limit the amount you can get, and people WANT MORE than what is given to them. For example a friend wanted to travel but there were 7 of them and only 2 had the CADIVI quotas and they didn't have enough and wanted more.
no tanto que sea dificil conseguirlo es limitante... dificil no, es que te limiten sí y la gente QUIERE MAS de lo que le dan... ejemplo una amiga queria viajar pero ellos eran 7 y solo dos tenian cupo cadivi entonces obviamente lo que tenian no era suficiente así que querian mas... es limitante... no dificil conseguirlo me entiendes?
You can correct me if I understood anything wrongly.
Later she says, "it's not difficult, you only have to wait for 4-6 months" . Like it's the most normal thing in the world.
Of course it's difficult. I don't know what country your friends lives on. The problem here is that we need to ask the government first for permission to access some foreign currency so we can travel. It's like asking the government if you can travel, and if they are "willing" to give you some money so you can travel well.
Does that sound logical? fuck no. Keeping a exchange control to "preserve the patrimony of the country" has done more harm than good to the country, due to government officials creating "fake businesess" and stealing a shitton of money by asking CADIVI for money.
You think that 500$ in cash, 2200$ in credit card and 300$ on internet expenses is logical in a country that sells a shitton of oil barrels a day for 100$ a pop? absurd.
Yea I know (referrerring to the first paragraph), I've been trying to convince her that this isn't the way things should be and she refuses to listen because I'm "looking in from outside", and that I shouldn't criticise her country.
She thinks CADIVI controlling the money has nothing to do with the government, that it's related to the banks, that the currency control mainly affects the companies and not regular people because the quota/ allocation is enough for traveling. And that the limitation is only a problem to people who WANT MORE than what is given.
I tried what I could and I'm still trying to convince her, but it's hard when she insists that I need to be there to understand how it is and not solely rely on what people say. Funkie, you're probably fedup of listening to this but I thought others might be interested.
She seems to me like a conformist? she's happy with what she's given and doesn't think of wanting more. I'm not one of thjose myself. I always want more. Why? Because everytime I travel I have to limit myself on the things that I want because my government doesn't give me enough dollars to get what I want. Not even, when I still pay for them. They're not giving me a gift or lending me money, I'm still paying for that shitty cap you always get.
It used to be 2500$ for CreditCard POS charges, 500$ in cash and 400$ for internet expenses. This year they reduced the total to 2200$ CC POS Charges, 500$ in cash and 300$ internet. Cadivi is an entity that was created by the government so people who travel abroad could "ask for permission" to use USD$ or Euros (€) when they travel. they actually "killed" Cadivi in January and created Concoex (Centro de Comercio Exterior), and informed that cencoex would absorb cadivi and so on.
That hasn't happened yet, and won't likely happen since the protests get bigger and better for us, and worse for the government. She seems to be a pro-government person. Maybe she believes in the revolution, or "Robolución" as we call it here. They've stolen a lot of the assets of the country, they ALL have off shores accounts in which they keep all that has been stolen from the country. It is said that Chavez left an account with more than $2Billion.
So you go and tell me, how a person, connected in the government gets to use more $ or € than a regular venezuelan can?.
Why impose a exchange control when in the past, people who had the means could go to a exchange facility and swap BsF for $ without any trouble. Why change that?
You think that when Cadivi was born, there wasn't a "workaround" to get those dollars without even traveling? They're called the "raspacupos" and according to the government they are "hurting the economy". bullshit, the amount of $ approved last years was nothing compared to the $25billion stolen from the country by those "ghost businesess".
It's kind of hilarious that silverman-LG wants to show how unbiased he is by writing one of the most biased posts about Torre David imaginable. That or this book by a group of architects studying the tower for years is full of lies. Based on the book: Basically, the people who squatted in the tower came there because they wanted better living conditions (the first wave came from the barrios) and now many residents strive for a middle class existence within the tower and the apartments range from no walls to pretty nice depending on the resources and time available to the person. What silverman-LG calls "The Chief of the Tower" is in fact a pastor (don't have the book on me right now but I can look his name up later). Of course he theoretically could still be a drug lord but let's be serious for a while... It is true that water and electricity are "stolen", however the community tries to gain legal access at the moment and starts to work together with government agencies to improve safety and quality. This does not imply that the services are free: building and running an infrastructure within the tower does indeed need effort and money (the book covers this aspect in detail). Furthermore, Torre David is basically a gated community for the poor. There are security guards on duty (from and for the community) because of the notorious situation in Caracas. They also have to be paid. This and other community efforts explain the rent.
It is clear that the authors are sympathetic to the inhabitants and squatters in general (I think they are part of the group behind the cable car from the slums to the metro) but it is interesting how they differentiate between the inhabitants of the tower and the people in the barrios: The former are way more focused on improving their situation. Basically the opposite of silverman-LG's assessment.
I'm sure he knows his stuff from a business perspective and makes many good observations in general but on this particular topic I would take his word with a shovel of salt.
CARACAS, March 11 (Reuters) - Venezuela unveiled new currency regulations on Tuesday to help usher in a new foreign exchange platform designed to ease dollar shortages, promising the much-delayed system would begin operations within hours.
The Sicad 2 platform adds a third exchange rate to the country's 11-year-old currency controls that sell dollars at 6.3 bolivars for preferential goods and around 11 for other items.
Officials say it will help lower the price of dollars on the black market, where greenbacks now fetch close to 80 bolivars.
"We're going to defeat the illegal, speculative market," Economy Vice President Rafael Ramirez told reporters. "It's a dollar price without any economic fundamentals which has harmed our economy, caused inflationary pressure."
Ramirez declined to provide details on the amounts likely to be offered or the expected exchange rate.
CARACAS, March 11 (Reuters) - Venezuela unveiled new currency regulations on Tuesday to help usher in a new foreign exchange platform designed to ease dollar shortages, promising the much-delayed system would begin operations within hours.
The Sicad 2 platform adds a third exchange rate to the country's 11-year-old currency controls that sell dollars at 6.3 bolivars for preferential goods and around 11 for other items.
Officials say it will help lower the price of dollars on the black market, where greenbacks now fetch close to 80 bolivars.
"We're going to defeat the illegal, speculative market," Economy Vice President Rafael Ramirez told reporters. "It's a dollar price without any economic fundamentals which has harmed our economy, caused inflationary pressure."
Ramirez declined to provide details on the amounts likely to be offered or the expected exchange rate.
Sorry if this sounds stupid but why do they actually need to control the exchange rate at all? As far as I know no one else has the need to do this and they brought the black market problem upon themselves by limiting the exchange of currency in order to stop rich people from leaving the country easily and to control imports to promote the buying of local products and goods.
(redacted lopez claim 30 protesters were killed, he knew bloody well it was ~even mix of security forces / police and civillians, with the blame seemingly evenly distribuited between protestors and security forces ofc)
lol @ that foxnews piece, what world is this rubio idiot living in i wonder.
"Maduro regime’s deadly wave of repression,” said Rubio. “Now it’s time for actions that name, shame and punish the Maduro regime’s murderers and thugs who are responsible for the crackdown against innocent Venezuelans."
each side responsible for ~9 deaths mind you, maduro being a democratically elected president.
Venezuela protests are sign that US wants our oil, says Nicolás Maduro
...
The conflict has claimed up to 39 lives and posed a significant challenge to Maduro's government. On Monday, the Venezuelanpresident agreed to a proposal by the South American regional group Unasur for peace talks with opposition leaders, who have up to now refused to join a government-led dialogue.
The US denies involvement and says Venezuela is using the excuse of a coup threat to crack down on the opposition. Human Rights Watch and Venezuela's Catholic hierarchy have also condemned the government's handling of the protests, while Amnesty International has alleged human rights abuses by both sides.
Maduro claimed Venezuela was facing a type of "unconventional war that the US has perfected over the last decades", citing a string of US-backed coups or attempted coups from 1960s Brazil to Honduras in 2009.
USAID Subversion in Latin America Not Limited to Cuba
...
As CEPR Co-Director Mark Weisbrot described in an interview with radio station KPFA’s “Letters and Politics” yesterday, USAID and OTI in particular have engaged in various efforts to undermine the democratically-elected governments of Venezuela, Bolivia, and Haiti, among others, and such “open societies” could be more likely to be impacted by such activities than Cuba. Declassified U.S. government documents show that USAID’s OTI in Venezuela played a central role in funding and working with groups and individuals following the short-lived 2002 coup d’etat against Hugo Chávez. A key contractor for USAID/OTI in that effort has been Development Alternatives, Inc. (DAI).
...
Among the ways in which USAID/OTI have supported the strategy is through the funding and training of protest groups. This August 2009 cable cites the head of USAID/OTI contractor DAI’s Venezuela office Eduardo Fernandez as saying, during 2009 protests, that all the protest organizers are DAI grantees:
¶5. (S) Fernandez told DCM Caulfield that he believed the [the Scientific, Penal and Criminal Investigations Corps'] dual objective is to obtain information regarding DAI's grantees and to cut off their funding. Fernandez said that "the streets are hot," referring to growing protests against Chavez's efforts to consolidate power, and "all these people (organizing the protests) are our grantees."
... and i personally think that governments should do like bolivia did and demand transparency... what are you doing in this country, if you can't tell us what you're doing then you can't operate here.
The Dirty Hand of the National Endowment for Democracy (NED) in Venezuela
...
These Washington agencies[NED and USAID] have also filtered more than $14 million to opposition groups in Venezuela between 2013 and 2014, including funding for their political campaigns in 2013 and for the current anti-government protests in 2014. This continues the pattern of financing from the US government to anti-Chavez groups in Venezuela since 2001, when millions of dollars were given to organizations from so-called “civil society” to execute a coup d’etat against President Chavez in April 2002. After their failure days later, USAID opened an Office of Transition Initiatives (OTI) in Caracas to, together with the NED, inject more than $100 million in efforts to undermine the Chavez government and reinforce the opposition during the following 8 years.
here is some news on this topic. it looks like the stocks shortage wasnt only due to the socialist's planned economy but also to the private sector who purposedly hoarded stock in HUGE quantities. Also we have to consider their ties with the political opposition to maduro's socialist government. Capitalists.... "stay schemin'" like the wise rick ross said http://www.telesurtv.net/english/news/In-Venezuela-Opposition-Linked-Firm-Hoards-Millions-of-Goods-20150114-0053.html
On January 17 2015 02:47 crazyweasel wrote: here is some news on this topic. it looks like the stocks shortage wasnt only due to the socialist's planned economy but also to the private sector who purposedly hoarded stock in HUGE quantities. Also we have to consider their ties with the political opposition to maduro's socialist government. Capitalists.... "stay schemin'" like the wise rick ross said http://www.telesurtv.net/english/news/In-Venezuela-Opposition-Linked-Firm-Hoards-Millions-of-Goods-20150114-0053.html
Well I for one am shocked - shocked - to hear that there are goods in, of all places, a warehouse. Hopefully the government can enact change to ensure that not only are stores empty, but warehouses are empty as well.
I loved reading this thread from last year after seeing the price of oil go down in the past few months. Some people really have their head way up their ass based on their political viewpoints.
On January 17 2015 02:47 crazyweasel wrote: here is some news on this topic. it looks like the stocks shortage wasnt only due to the socialist's planned economy but also to the private sector who purposedly hoarded stock in HUGE quantities. Also we have to consider their ties with the political opposition to maduro's socialist government. Capitalists.... "stay schemin'" like the wise rick ross said http://www.telesurtv.net/english/news/In-Venezuela-Opposition-Linked-Firm-Hoards-Millions-of-Goods-20150114-0053.html
tough to maintain a democracy under constant subversion from fascists and vampires.
On January 17 2015 02:47 crazyweasel wrote: here is some news on this topic. it looks like the stocks shortage wasnt only due to the socialist's planned economy but also to the private sector who purposedly hoarded stock in HUGE quantities. Also we have to consider their ties with the political opposition to maduro's socialist government. Capitalists.... "stay schemin'" like the wise rick ross said http://www.telesurtv.net/english/news/In-Venezuela-Opposition-Linked-Firm-Hoards-Millions-of-Goods-20150114-0053.html
Well I for one am shocked - shocked - to hear that there are goods in, of all places, a warehouse. Hopefully the government can enact change to ensure that not only are stores empty, but warehouses are empty as well.
Price controls also create an incentive for producers to produce less and retailers to stock less
On January 17 2015 02:47 crazyweasel wrote: here is some news on this topic. it looks like the stocks shortage wasnt only due to the socialist's planned economy but also to the private sector who purposedly hoarded stock in HUGE quantities. Also we have to consider their ties with the political opposition to maduro's socialist government. Capitalists.... "stay schemin'" like the wise rick ross said http://www.telesurtv.net/english/news/In-Venezuela-Opposition-Linked-Firm-Hoards-Millions-of-Goods-20150114-0053.html
So the opposition purposefully bought up essential goods to take them off the market and manufacture a shortage crisis? Sneaky sneaky
the type of disconection with reality expressed by crazyweasel and nunez is ridiculous to a point where I wonder how can they even function normally in their daily life
On February 25 2014 03:20 nunez wrote: excellent article.
Rise of the Student Opposition
In 2008, the US-based Cato Institute awarded the US$500,000 Milton Friedman Prize for Advancing Liberty to student leader Yon Goicoechea for his role in mobilising protests against the suspension of private broadcaster RCTV’s licence. At the same time, a sizeable amount of the US$45 million in funding provided annually by US institutions to Venezuelan opposition groups was channelled to ‘youth outreach’ programmes.
Bad article as it implies that any help to take maduro out of power is bad.
Also 99% sure the writer has never being to venezuela (vacations dont count) and know anything about the country.
I rofl to her saying the private sector was holding back food on warehouses to create "artificial" shortages xD Reminds me when maduro was blaming the "private sector" for the shortages of harina Pan. Things is, maduro is not chavez, and the "private sector" responded + Show Spoiler +
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFlJc0uGu5I
She obviously doesnt know the reason for the huge supply shortage, just some random "Dr" from hungary babling about something she has no ideia off.
We go from neo-nazis funded protestants, to students (funded obviously right). Will the next step be actually admitting that there is a huge chunk of the population that wants the government out? :D
Julia Buxton is a specialist on South America and the region's rapidly evolving political, economic and security architecture. She is an expert on Venezuela, receiving her PhD from the London School of Economics, where she also studied for her MA (Distinction) in Comparative Politics.
Anyone who claims shortage of goods is the result of hoarding by the private sector is disconected from reality and denies the most basics principles of economy.
This is no different from finance nobel's lauret (equivalent, it has another name) claiming there was no risk in the financial sector because their models proved it before the 2008 crisis. (Merton and a huge portion of the academy)
On February 25 2014 03:20 nunez wrote: excellent article.
Rise of the Student Opposition
In 2008, the US-based Cato Institute awarded the US$500,000 Milton Friedman Prize for Advancing Liberty to student leader Yon Goicoechea for his role in mobilising protests against the suspension of private broadcaster RCTV’s licence. At the same time, a sizeable amount of the US$45 million in funding provided annually by US institutions to Venezuelan opposition groups was channelled to ‘youth outreach’ programmes.
Bad article as it implies that any help to take maduro out of power is bad.
Also 99% sure the writer has never being to venezuela (vacations dont count) and know anything about the country.
I rofl to her saying the private sector was holding back food on warehouses to create "artificial" shortages xD Reminds me when maduro was blaming the "private sector" for the shortages of harina Pan. Things is, maduro is not chavez, and the "private sector" responded + Show Spoiler +
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFlJc0uGu5I
She obviously doesnt know the reason for the huge supply shortage, just some random "Dr" from hungary babling about something she has no ideia off.
We go from neo-nazis funded protestants, to students (funded obviously right). Will the next step be actually admitting that there is a huge chunk of the population that wants the government out? :D
Julia Buxton is a specialist on South America and the region's rapidly evolving political, economic and security architecture. She is an expert on Venezuela, receiving her PhD from the London School of Economics, where she also studied for her MA (Distinction) in Comparative Politics.
Anyone who claims shortage of goods is the result of hoarding by the private sector is disconected from reality and denies the most basics principles of economy.
This is no different from finance nobel's lauret (equivalent, it has another name) claiming there was no risk in the financial sector because their models proved it before the 2008 crisis. (Merton and a huge portion of the academy)
doh!
The best part of this is the recycling of language. Disconnection from reality seems to be code for dissenting from corporate orthodoxy. I am also enjoy our other political regulars employment of sarcasm. Keep up the circus gents.
On February 25 2014 03:20 nunez wrote: excellent article.
Rise of the Student Opposition
In 2008, the US-based Cato Institute awarded the US$500,000 Milton Friedman Prize for Advancing Liberty to student leader Yon Goicoechea for his role in mobilising protests against the suspension of private broadcaster RCTV’s licence. At the same time, a sizeable amount of the US$45 million in funding provided annually by US institutions to Venezuelan opposition groups was channelled to ‘youth outreach’ programmes.
Bad article as it implies that any help to take maduro out of power is bad.
Also 99% sure the writer has never being to venezuela (vacations dont count) and know anything about the country.
I rofl to her saying the private sector was holding back food on warehouses to create "artificial" shortages xD Reminds me when maduro was blaming the "private sector" for the shortages of harina Pan. Things is, maduro is not chavez, and the "private sector" responded + Show Spoiler +
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFlJc0uGu5I
She obviously doesnt know the reason for the huge supply shortage, just some random "Dr" from hungary babling about something she has no ideia off.
We go from neo-nazis funded protestants, to students (funded obviously right). Will the next step be actually admitting that there is a huge chunk of the population that wants the government out? :D
Julia Buxton is a specialist on South America and the region's rapidly evolving political, economic and security architecture. She is an expert on Venezuela, receiving her PhD from the London School of Economics, where she also studied for her MA (Distinction) in Comparative Politics.
Anyone who claims shortage of goods is the result of hoarding by the private sector is disconected from reality and denies the most basics principles of economy.
This is no different from finance nobel's lauret (equivalent, it has another name) claiming there was no risk in the financial sector because their models proved it before the 2008 crisis. (Merton and a huge portion of the academy)
doh!
The best part of this is the recycling of language. Disconnection from reality seems to be code for dissenting from corporate orthodoxy. I am also enjoy our other political regulars employment of sarcasm. Keep up the circus gents.
Disconnection from reality means exactly that. State controled economies have failed over and over again all over the world, because it is an economic model that simply does not work.
However some people seem unable to observe what evidently happens and instead, come up with an obscure alternative reason for why this country fails. The most common ones are blaming "counter revolutionaries", the private sector hoarding, or the U.S.
On February 25 2014 03:20 nunez wrote: excellent article.
Rise of the Student Opposition
In 2008, the US-based Cato Institute awarded the US$500,000 Milton Friedman Prize for Advancing Liberty to student leader Yon Goicoechea for his role in mobilising protests against the suspension of private broadcaster RCTV’s licence. At the same time, a sizeable amount of the US$45 million in funding provided annually by US institutions to Venezuelan opposition groups was channelled to ‘youth outreach’ programmes.
Bad article as it implies that any help to take maduro out of power is bad.
Also 99% sure the writer has never being to venezuela (vacations dont count) and know anything about the country.
I rofl to her saying the private sector was holding back food on warehouses to create "artificial" shortages xD Reminds me when maduro was blaming the "private sector" for the shortages of harina Pan. Things is, maduro is not chavez, and the "private sector" responded + Show Spoiler +
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFlJc0uGu5I
She obviously doesnt know the reason for the huge supply shortage, just some random "Dr" from hungary babling about something she has no ideia off.
We go from neo-nazis funded protestants, to students (funded obviously right). Will the next step be actually admitting that there is a huge chunk of the population that wants the government out? :D
Julia Buxton is a specialist on South America and the region's rapidly evolving political, economic and security architecture. She is an expert on Venezuela, receiving her PhD from the London School of Economics, where she also studied for her MA (Distinction) in Comparative Politics.
Anyone who claims shortage of goods is the result of hoarding by the private sector is disconected from reality and denies the most basics principles of economy.
This is no different from finance nobel's lauret (equivalent, it has another name) claiming there was no risk in the financial sector because their models proved it before the 2008 crisis. (Merton and a huge portion of the academy)
doh!
The best part of this is the recycling of language. Disconnection from reality seems to be code for dissenting from corporate orthodoxy. I am also enjoy our other political regulars employment of sarcasm. Keep up the circus gents.
Disconnection from reality means exactly that. State controled economies have failed over and over again all over the world, because it is an economic model that simply does not work.
However some people seem unable to observe what evidently happens and instead, come up with an obscure alternative reason for why this country fails. The most common ones are blaming "counter revolutionaries", the private sector hoarding, or the U.S.
If you make a concerted effort to avoid looking at the facts of history, you're entirely correct.
On February 25 2014 03:20 nunez wrote: excellent article.
Rise of the Student Opposition
In 2008, the US-based Cato Institute awarded the US$500,000 Milton Friedman Prize for Advancing Liberty to student leader Yon Goicoechea for his role in mobilising protests against the suspension of private broadcaster RCTV’s licence. At the same time, a sizeable amount of the US$45 million in funding provided annually by US institutions to Venezuelan opposition groups was channelled to ‘youth outreach’ programmes.
Bad article as it implies that any help to take maduro out of power is bad.
Also 99% sure the writer has never being to venezuela (vacations dont count) and know anything about the country.
I rofl to her saying the private sector was holding back food on warehouses to create "artificial" shortages xD Reminds me when maduro was blaming the "private sector" for the shortages of harina Pan. Things is, maduro is not chavez, and the "private sector" responded + Show Spoiler +
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFlJc0uGu5I
She obviously doesnt know the reason for the huge supply shortage, just some random "Dr" from hungary babling about something she has no ideia off.
We go from neo-nazis funded protestants, to students (funded obviously right). Will the next step be actually admitting that there is a huge chunk of the population that wants the government out? :D
Julia Buxton is a specialist on South America and the region's rapidly evolving political, economic and security architecture. She is an expert on Venezuela, receiving her PhD from the London School of Economics, where she also studied for her MA (Distinction) in Comparative Politics.
Anyone who claims shortage of goods is the result of hoarding by the private sector is disconected from reality and denies the most basics principles of economy.
This is no different from finance nobel's lauret (equivalent, it has another name) claiming there was no risk in the financial sector because their models proved it before the 2008 crisis. (Merton and a huge portion of the academy)
doh!
The best part of this is the recycling of language. Disconnection from reality seems to be code for dissenting from corporate orthodoxy. I am also enjoy our other political regulars employment of sarcasm. Keep up the circus gents.
Disconnection from reality means exactly that. State controled economies have failed over and over again all over the world, because it is an economic model that simply does not work.
However some people seem unable to observe what evidently happens and instead, come up with an obscure alternative reason for why this country fails. The most common ones are blaming "counter revolutionaries", the private sector hoarding, or the U.S.
If you make a concerted effort to avoid looking at the facts of history, you're entirely correct.
then it should be really easy for you to give some examples of planned/controlled economies matching or exceeding the neoliberal european countries and the US/Canada in economic growth and standard of living. argentina perhaps? well, no. india? well, no. china? well... no. russia? sorry. venezuela? hmmm... okay, no. saudi arabia? maybe in the 1970s... nah, not even then. scandinavia? none of those are planned economies... even the most socialy european social democracy is still predominantly a neoliberal economy/culture.
where could one find these details of history that someone must make a concerted effort to avoid seeing, if they are to believe that planned economies stink?
it actually takes a concerted effort to avoid looking at the facts to history to conclude anything else other than that modern state-controlled economies = fail. that's all they've ever done, ever. not a single one has achieved success. not russia, not china, not venezuela, not argentina, not any of them. that's why china gave up that crap 30 years ago and went for crony capitalism instead.
On February 25 2014 03:20 nunez wrote: excellent article.
Rise of the Student Opposition
In 2008, the US-based Cato Institute awarded the US$500,000 Milton Friedman Prize for Advancing Liberty to student leader Yon Goicoechea for his role in mobilising protests against the suspension of private broadcaster RCTV’s licence. At the same time, a sizeable amount of the US$45 million in funding provided annually by US institutions to Venezuelan opposition groups was channelled to ‘youth outreach’ programmes.
Bad article as it implies that any help to take maduro out of power is bad.
Also 99% sure the writer has never being to venezuela (vacations dont count) and know anything about the country.
I rofl to her saying the private sector was holding back food on warehouses to create "artificial" shortages xD Reminds me when maduro was blaming the "private sector" for the shortages of harina Pan. Things is, maduro is not chavez, and the "private sector" responded + Show Spoiler +
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFlJc0uGu5I
She obviously doesnt know the reason for the huge supply shortage, just some random "Dr" from hungary babling about something she has no ideia off.
We go from neo-nazis funded protestants, to students (funded obviously right). Will the next step be actually admitting that there is a huge chunk of the population that wants the government out? :D
Julia Buxton is a specialist on South America and the region's rapidly evolving political, economic and security architecture. She is an expert on Venezuela, receiving her PhD from the London School of Economics, where she also studied for her MA (Distinction) in Comparative Politics.
Anyone who claims shortage of goods is the result of hoarding by the private sector is disconected from reality and denies the most basics principles of economy.
This is no different from finance nobel's lauret (equivalent, it has another name) claiming there was no risk in the financial sector because their models proved it before the 2008 crisis. (Merton and a huge portion of the academy)
doh!
The best part of this is the recycling of language. Disconnection from reality seems to be code for dissenting from corporate orthodoxy. I am also enjoy our other political regulars employment of sarcasm. Keep up the circus gents.
What's corporate orthodoxy? GAAP?
Venezuela uses price controls and subsidies to push up consumer demand. The same policies are either ineffective at increasing supply to match that increased demand, or counter-productive. The result has been an increasing need to meet demand through unsustainable means. A few big unsustainable means that I've seen have been running down inventories and borrowing from abroad to import more.
It's not that subsidies or pushing up consumer demand are bad things, as if trying to improve the lot of the poor is doomed to failure, it's a budget issue. They can only afford to do those sort of things so much and they've pushed things well beyond what's practical.
Latin America has seen this story play out before in Chile and Peru, and the end isn't pretty. Europe has seen a similar story play out in Greece. It's fun to live beyond your means when someone on the outside is willing to finance your profligacy. But that good time never lasts forever, and the hangover sucks.
Edit: Another historical note; the Soviet Union had inventory issues as well. Retailers were often hit with shortages and factories and warehouses often had a lot of raw material and WIP inventory sitting around.
On January 18 2015 04:32 DeepElemBlues wrote: it actually takes a concerted effort to avoid looking at the facts to history to conclude anything else other than that modern state-controlled economies = fail. that's all they've ever done, ever. not a single one has achieved success. not russia, not china, not venezuela, not argentina, not any of them. that's why china gave up that crap 30 years ago and went for crony capitalism instead.
Wow this is some ignorance. First of all, you seem to use crony capitalism as something worth striving for, am I correct? If you do, I can tell you that the economic model of Argentina is quite similar to the one of China, in fact, they all are (do you think Chávez ever tried to completely abolish capitalism? He didn't) -- capitalist with a quite a lot of state intervention. You seem to think that all state intervention does is lead to failure. I'm not chavista nor kirchnerista but your post is full of ignorance.
There is no economy in the world that has only achieved success without some failures. Or is there? Please, enlighten me.
Let's begin with Venezuela -- the inflation is super high in Venezuela, the murder rates have gone up and the government is accused of corruption over and over again. But has the state control of Venezuela only led to shit?
Venezuela has reduced its GINI coefficient significantly since Chávez was elected. Some people say "but a GINI coeff. of 0.4 is still reeeeally high." What most people forget is that you can't compare any countries on earth. Compare Venezuela with other Latin American countries (with at least somewhat similar histories) and you'll understand what I'm talking about.
Chávez was elected in 1999. Is unemployment completely irrelevant? Poverty (especially extreme poverty) was also reduced, analphabetism was eradicated, child mortality significantly decreased, etc.
For Argentina google something about what the ISI period did for the Argentine economy. The ISI period was one characterized by strong interventions from the state. You want more examples? Google Brazil ISI.
If you want to see what happened with the GINI in Argentina (Nestor Kirchner was elected in 2003):
I'm not saying these examples are the best in the world but ignorance like yours make me sad, especially when you don't have an idea what you're talking about.
On January 18 2015 04:32 DeepElemBlues wrote: it actually takes a concerted effort to avoid looking at the facts to history to conclude anything else other than that modern state-controlled economies = fail. that's all they've ever done, ever. not a single one has achieved success. not russia, not china, not venezuela, not argentina, not any of them. that's why china gave up that crap 30 years ago and went for crony capitalism instead.
Wow this is some ignorance. First of all, you seem to use crony capitalism as something worth striving for, am I correct? If you do, I can tell you that the economic model of Argentina is quite similar to the one of China, in fact, they all are (do you think Chávez ever tried to completely abolish capitalism? He didn't) -- capitalist with a quite a lot of state intervention. You seem to think that all state intervention does is lead to failure. I'm not chavista nor kirchnerista but your post is full of ignorance.
There is no economy in the world that has only achieved success without some failures. Or is there? Please, enlighten me.
Let's begin with Venezuela -- the inflation is super high in Venezuela, the murder rates have gone up and the government is accused of corruption over and over again. But has the state control of Venezuela only led to shit?
Venezuela has reduced its GINI coefficient significantly since Chávez was elected. Some people say "but a GINI coeff. of 0.4 is still reeeeally high." What most people forget is that you can't compare any countries on earth. Compare Venezuela with other Latin American countries (with at least somewhat similar histories) and you'll understand what I'm talking about.
Chávez was elected in 1999. Is unemployment completely irrelevant? Poverty (especially extreme poverty) was also reduced, analfabetism was eradicated, child mortality significantly decreased, etc.
For Argentina google something about what the ISI period did for the Argentine economy. The ISI period was one characterized by strong interventions from the state. You want more examples? Google Brazil ISI.
If you want to see what happened with the GINI in Argentina (Nestor Kirchner was elected in 2003):
I'm not saying these examples are the best in the world but ignorance like yours make me sad, especially when you don't have an idea what you're talking about.
I don't feel like commenting on your entire post, but Argentina isn't even remotely close to China; they are unable to produce anything and the country is pretty much run in a completely different way.
A bit more on Argentina:
I was there recently and I can tell you that government control has led to black market on pretty much everything. For starters, USD official exchange was 20 pesos per USD, but any argentinian was willing to give you 12 pesos for USD.
When you flight in, you have to declare your cell phone, since there is shortage for pretty much all electronics. It is also well known Argentinans come to Chile in cars to buy their TV's and refrigerators when it is possible (from Mendoza mainly)
There is a facebook campaign called "Corrida de tampones" which stands for "shortage of tampons", making fun of the fact that you can't get on some parts of Argentina.
A new viral video made by the protesting students in Venezuela themselves. I think it deserves to be in the OP since it's a side of the story we haven't really heard from yet.
I feel for them because the shit might hit the fan soon in my country.. but that's for another thread and it's not as bad.
On May 04 2015 04:50 xM(Z wrote: first vid is a little tinfoily, just sayin'.
Yes, they stretch it a bit far, but the main point about the Castros and the collectivos isn't, since their people are worried about Cuba. The censorship, brainwashing, smuggling, lack of items and queues are all true, based on second hand accounts from locals.
And a black market price for USD, since the buying of foreign currency is controlled. The USD can be worth from 6.30 bsf to 279 bsf (according to https://dolartoday.com/)
But hey, if spicing it up with hezbollah stuff (if it isn't true) is what gives them the energy to fight, why not?
that hezbollah stuff was meant for the international community imo. i doubt regular venezuelans care that much what happens in middle east. it's obvious that they have other priorities now.
On May 04 2015 04:23 JieXian wrote: A new viral video made by the protesting students in Venezuela themselves. I think it deserves to be in the OP since it's a side of the story we haven't really heard from yet. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vnRjGYaqvIM
I feel for them because the shit might hit the fan soon in my country.. but that's for another thread and it's not as bad.
Fuck, that second video really pissed me off with the attitude of "Wow, it must be so difficult to live with insanity. Glad I do not have to live in such chaos" when the situation in America is just as insane, if not more so. I would go into the mind numbing hypocrisy and propaganda expressed on all sides, but I would simply be deconstructing all the bullshit and obscurantism seen in the Ukraine conflict again. The 1st video is a wonderful example of sensationalism and hyperboles, almost like KONY 2012. My god, the crinoline is still murdering my soul
On May 04 2015 04:23 JieXian wrote: A new viral video made by the protesting students in Venezuela themselves. I think it deserves to be in the OP since it's a side of the story we haven't really heard from yet. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vnRjGYaqvIM
I feel for them because the shit might hit the fan soon in my country.. but that's for another thread and it's not as bad.
Fuck, that second video really pissed me off with the attitude of "Wow, it must be so difficult to live with insanity. Glad I do not have to live in such chaos" when the situation in America is just as insane, if not more so. I would go into the mind numbing hypocrisy and propaganda expressed on all sides, but I would simply be deconstructing all the bullshit and obscurantism seen in the Ukraine conflict again. The 1st video is a wonderful example of sensationalism and hyperboles, almost like KONY 2012. My god, the crinoline is still murdering my soul
I agree about the sensationalism. But unless I'm missing something, I don't think that the shelves grocery stores in America are empty and the USD is undergoing hyperinflation.
On May 04 2015 04:23 JieXian wrote: A new viral video made by the protesting students in Venezuela themselves. I think it deserves to be in the OP since it's a side of the story we haven't really heard from yet. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vnRjGYaqvIM
I feel for them because the shit might hit the fan soon in my country.. but that's for another thread and it's not as bad.
Fuck, that second video really pissed me off with the attitude of "Wow, it must be so difficult to live with insanity. Glad I do not have to live in such chaos" when the situation in America is just as insane, if not more so. I would go into the mind numbing hypocrisy and propaganda expressed on all sides, but I would simply be deconstructing all the bullshit and obscurantism seen in the Ukraine conflict again. The 1st video is a wonderful example of sensationalism and hyperboles, almost like KONY 2012. My god, the crinoline is still murdering my soul
I agree about the sensationalism. But unless I'm missing something, I don't think that the shelves grocery stores in America are empty and the USD is undergoing hyperinflation.
No the other dude is obviously correct-- As I am drinking my $6 Starbucks, playing starcraft2 and LoL and WoW, with a tablet sitting on each of my legs, and consuming a $7 McShit meal. Ya things are pretty much the same.
On May 04 2015 04:23 JieXian wrote: A new viral video made by the protesting students in Venezuela themselves. I think it deserves to be in the OP since it's a side of the story we haven't really heard from yet. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vnRjGYaqvIM
I feel for them because the shit might hit the fan soon in my country.. but that's for another thread and it's not as bad.
Fuck, that second video really pissed me off with the attitude of "Wow, it must be so difficult to live with insanity. Glad I do not have to live in such chaos" when the situation in America is just as insane, if not more so. I would go into the mind numbing hypocrisy and propaganda expressed on all sides, but I would simply be deconstructing all the bullshit and obscurantism seen in the Ukraine conflict again. The 1st video is a wonderful example of sensationalism and hyperboles, almost like KONY 2012. My god, the crinoline is still murdering my soul
I agree about the sensationalism. But unless I'm missing something, I don't think that the shelves grocery stores in America are empty and the USD is undergoing hyperinflation.
No the other dude is obviously correct-- As I am drinking my $6 Starbucks, playing starcraft2 and LoL and WoW, with a tablet sitting on each of my legs, and consuming a $7 McShit meal. Ya things are pretty much the same.
There are bread lines happening right now in the United States. Don't be fooled. Go to the nearest 85 degrees bakery if you don't believe me.
On May 04 2015 04:23 JieXian wrote: A new viral video made by the protesting students in Venezuela themselves. I think it deserves to be in the OP since it's a side of the story we haven't really heard from yet. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vnRjGYaqvIM
I feel for them because the shit might hit the fan soon in my country.. but that's for another thread and it's not as bad.
Fuck, that second video really pissed me off with the attitude of "Wow, it must be so difficult to live with insanity. Glad I do not have to live in such chaos" when the situation in America is just as insane, if not more so. I would go into the mind numbing hypocrisy and propaganda expressed on all sides, but I would simply be deconstructing all the bullshit and obscurantism seen in the Ukraine conflict again. The 1st video is a wonderful example of sensationalism and hyperboles, almost like KONY 2012. My god, the crinoline is still murdering my soul
I agree about the sensationalism. But unless I'm missing something, I don't think that the shelves grocery stores in America are empty and the USD is undergoing hyperinflation.
No the other dude is obviously correct-- As I am drinking my $6 Starbucks, playing starcraft2 and LoL and WoW, with a tablet sitting on each of my legs, and consuming a $7 McShit meal. Ya things are pretty much the same.
There are bread lines happening right now in the United States. Don't be fooled. Go to the nearest 85 degrees bakery if you don't believe me.
Arguing that there is poverty is not so different from arguing that the sky is blue.
Venezuela: How long does it take to buy 8 basic goods? BBC News
Also:
It's No Joke: Venezuela Cracks Down On Comedians
Laureano Márquez was performing a benefit at his old high school in the Venezuelan city of Maracay. The comedian dwelled on the absurdities of life in this oil-rich nation, where gas is cheaper than water but it's hard to find milk, toilet paper and many other everyday goods.
In the supermarket, Màrquez said, desperate customers will steal scarce items right out of your shopping cart.
"In Venezuela, you get robbed of stuff that isn't even yours yet," he said to a round of laughs.
Turning serious, Marquez tells the crowd that the socialist revolution, launched 16 years ago by the late Hugo Chavez, is collapsing under the weight of bad policies and corrupt public officials.
That message doesn't sit well with Venezuela's president, Nicolas Maduro. Besides jailing opposition leaders and cracking down on protesters, the Maduro government is now going after comics.
Laureano Márquez was performing a benefit at his old high school in the Venezuelan city of Maracay. The comedian dwelled on the absurdities of life in this oil-rich nation, where gas is cheaper than water but it's hard to find milk, toilet paper and many other everyday goods.
In the supermarket, Màrquez said, desperate customers will steal scarce items right out of your shopping cart.
"In Venezuela, you get robbed of stuff that isn't even yours yet," he said to a round of laughs.
Turning serious, Marquez tells the crowd that the socialist revolution, launched 16 years ago by the late Hugo Chavez, is collapsing under the weight of bad policies and corrupt public officials.
That message doesn't sit well with Venezuela's president, Nicolas Maduro. Besides jailing opposition leaders and cracking down on protesters, the Maduro government is now going after comics.
Pretty shitty reporting tbh. Aside from the lines, all we really have is his word on it that they have nothing else in stock. Didn't film the inside of a store at all, or even say what these fixed prices are.
Laureano Márquez was performing a benefit at his old high school in the Venezuelan city of Maracay. The comedian dwelled on the absurdities of life in this oil-rich nation, where gas is cheaper than water but it's hard to find milk, toilet paper and many other everyday goods.
In the supermarket, Màrquez said, desperate customers will steal scarce items right out of your shopping cart.
"In Venezuela, you get robbed of stuff that isn't even yours yet," he said to a round of laughs.
Turning serious, Marquez tells the crowd that the socialist revolution, launched 16 years ago by the late Hugo Chavez, is collapsing under the weight of bad policies and corrupt public officials.
That message doesn't sit well with Venezuela's president, Nicolas Maduro. Besides jailing opposition leaders and cracking down on protesters, the Maduro government is now going after comics.
Pretty shitty reporting tbh. Aside from the lines, all we really have is his word on it that they have nothing else in stock. Didn't film the inside of a store at all, or even say what these fixed prices are.
Sociliast lovers need to stop denying evident truth. He doesn't have to post any evidence because you just need to write "desabastecimiento venezuela 2015" on youtube to find tens (hundreds?) of videos of people queeing outside stores and/or fighting for leftover stocks inside.
Edit: First 3 videos. I know most here don't speak spanish but most stuff is fairly obvious anyway.
Laureano Márquez was performing a benefit at his old high school in the Venezuelan city of Maracay. The comedian dwelled on the absurdities of life in this oil-rich nation, where gas is cheaper than water but it's hard to find milk, toilet paper and many other everyday goods.
In the supermarket, Màrquez said, desperate customers will steal scarce items right out of your shopping cart.
"In Venezuela, you get robbed of stuff that isn't even yours yet," he said to a round of laughs.
Turning serious, Marquez tells the crowd that the socialist revolution, launched 16 years ago by the late Hugo Chavez, is collapsing under the weight of bad policies and corrupt public officials.
That message doesn't sit well with Venezuela's president, Nicolas Maduro. Besides jailing opposition leaders and cracking down on protesters, the Maduro government is now going after comics.
Pretty shitty reporting tbh. Aside from the lines, all we really have is his word on it that they have nothing else in stock. Didn't film the inside of a store at all, or even say what these fixed prices are.
Sociliast lovers need to stop denying evident truth. He doesn't have to post any evidence because you just need to write "desabastecimiento venezuela 2015" on youtube to find tens (hundreds?) of videos of people queeing outside stores and/or fighting for leftover stocks inside.
Edit: First 3 videos. I know most here don't speak spanish but most stuff is fairly obvious anyway.
Um, what? I never said any of that wasn't going on, I said he was a shitty reporter because the entire segment was him standing in lines for a few minutes, reiterating hearsay from said lines, and showing a couple of things he bought.
Anyone watching with no knowledge of what's currently going on would learn nothing except that Venezuela has lines to get into the supermarket, which I imagine wasn't the point of his report. Your entire counter to that was "well evidence is already elsewhere, so he doesn't have to show it!", which is fucking retarded.
His report should have been to show people who have no knowledge of the situation, what the situation is. It does not accomplish that.