Holds part of the cockpit window frame:
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In order to maintain some kind of respectable thread quality and to show some respect for those who lost friends in this tragedy, we're forced to enact a hard line policy for this thread. Any posts holding an opinion on who is responsible or making an accusation that is not held by neutral media will be banned. Policy is in effect from page 27 onwards. Specifically, citing a Ukrainian or Russian source for your claims is going to get you banned. Opinions/facts/accusations arising from neutral media sources (i.e. media whose country of origin is not Ukraine, Russia or one of its puppet states) will be permitted. This policy extends to all forms of media; if a youtube video or picture has not come through a neutral media source then don't post it or you'll be banned. If you wish to discuss this policy please use this website feedback thread. Updated policy on aggressive posting and insults. | ||
Antisocialmunky
United States5912 Posts
July 22 2014 05:59 GMT
#1201
Holds part of the cockpit window frame: :\ | ||
Deleted User 137586
7859 Posts
July 22 2014 08:05 GMT
#1202
Four days after the Boeing 777 came crashing down into the fields of eastern Ukraine, the flight recorders from flight MH17 were finally handed over to the Malaysians at a surreal night-time ceremony in Donetsk, while the bodies of 282 victims began a slow train journey out of the country's south-eastern conflict zone. Almost 12 hours after negotiations with the so-called Donetsk People's Republic, a Malaysian delegation was handed the two "black boxes" – chunky devices which are in fact orange – by Alexander Borodai, the self-styled prime minister of the Donetsk People's Republic, in a late-night press conference guarded by dozens of Kalashnikov-wielding rebels, on the 11th floor of a government building in Donetsk that has been occupied by the rebels. Before handing over the boxes Borodai took the chance to insist again that the pro-Russia rebels in east Ukraine had nothing to do with the downing of MH17 and blamed the Kiev government, which he said had "both the technical ability and the motive" to bring down the plane. Colonel Mohamed Sakri, part of the Malaysian delegation, thanked "his excellency Mr Borodai" for agreeing to the transfer, which came after Borodai spoke personally to the Malaysian prime minister by telephone earlier in the day. Read more here. | ||
Penev
28346 Posts
July 22 2014 08:37 GMT
#1203
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SCguineapig
Netherlands289 Posts
July 22 2014 08:49 GMT
#1204
this video above belongs in this thread no doubt, thanks for posting it. | ||
Derez
Netherlands6068 Posts
July 22 2014 09:13 GMT
#1205
Train with remains of Malaysian plane crash victims arrives in Ukraine's Kharkiv (Reuters) - A train carrying the remains of victims of a Malaysian plane downed over rebel-held territory in eastern Ukraine arrived in the city of Kharkiv in eastern Ukraine, a Reuters witness said. Ukrainian officials say the remains will be taken to the Netherlands. Almost 300 people were killed when the Malaysian airliner went down on Thursday, most of them were Dutch. (Reporting by Sergei Karazy, Writing by Gabriela Baczynska, editing by Elizabeth Piper) http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/07/22/us-ukraine-crisis-train-kharkiv-idUSKBN0FR0RE20140722 According to the dutch foreign ministry the train is not yet at the compound where the sorting and transfer to planes are supposed to take place and the hope is to transfer them to holland today. | ||
Deleted User 137586
7859 Posts
July 22 2014 09:55 GMT
#1206
A piece of wreckage from the Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777-200 that was shot down in eastern Ukraine last week bears telltale marks of small pieces of high-velocity shrapnel that apparently crippled the jet in flight. Riddled with these perforations and buffeted by a blast wave as it flew high above the conflict zone, the plane then most likely sheared apart. The wreckage, photographed by two reporters for The New York Times in a field several miles from where the largest concentration of the Boeing’s debris settled, suggests that the destruction of the aircraft was caused by a supersonic missile that apparently exploded near the jet as it flew 33,000 feet above the ground, according to an analysis of the photographs by IHS Jane’s, the defense consultancy. The damage, including the shrapnel holes and blistered paint on a panel of the destroyed plane’s exterior, is consistent with the effects of a fragmenting warhead carried by an SA-11 missile, known in Russian as a Buk, the type of missile that American officials have said was the probable culprit in the downing of the plane. It is impossible from these photographs of the damaged plane to determine what specific model of missile was used. But the SA-11 is a member of a class of weapon that carries a fragmenting warhead with a proximity fuze. If a missile like that functioned as designed, it would cause damage like that evident in the debris of Flight 17. source | ||
JinDesu
United States3990 Posts
July 22 2014 11:51 GMT
#1207
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Xiphos
Canada7507 Posts
July 22 2014 11:58 GMT
#1208
On July 22 2014 20:51 JinDesu wrote: Given the position of the missile damage, I would imagine that the missile had to be flying towards the plan. If so, it would either be a missile launch from the ground ahead of the plane (in front of it's flight path) - or if Russia would stick to the second aircraft theory, a warplane coming from in front of the airliner. Given Micronesia's comment on the radar being at the front of the plane, if there were a SU-25 ahead of the airliner, it would have been picked up by the radar and would be on the black boxes. That should make it a simpler task of ruling out if the SU-25 (unless the SU-25 has AA capabilities beyond radar ranges of an airliner, if someone knows this?). You should finish that thought. | ||
Sjokola
Netherlands800 Posts
July 22 2014 12:03 GMT
#1209
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xM(Z
Romania5257 Posts
July 22 2014 12:07 GMT
#1210
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JinDesu
United States3990 Posts
July 22 2014 12:17 GMT
#1211
On July 22 2014 20:58 Xiphos wrote: Show nested quote + On July 22 2014 20:51 JinDesu wrote: Given the position of the missile damage, I would imagine that the missile had to be flying towards the plan. If so, it would either be a missile launch from the ground ahead of the plane (in front of it's flight path) - or if Russia would stick to the second aircraft theory, a warplane coming from in front of the airliner. Given Micronesia's comment on the radar being at the front of the plane, if there were a SU-25 ahead of the airliner, it would have been picked up by the radar and would be on the black boxes. That should make it a simpler task of ruling out if the SU-25 (unless the SU-25 has AA capabilities beyond radar ranges of an airliner, if someone knows this?). You should finish that thought. Woops, haha. Yeah, I meant to say it would rule out a SU-25 shooting at it. | ||
zatic
Zurich15234 Posts
July 22 2014 12:22 GMT
#1212
On July 22 2014 21:07 xM(Z wrote: would a ground to air missile, hit a plane from below? The missile has a proximity fuse, so it does not need to hit the plane directly, but will explode as soon as it is near enough to the target that the shock and shrapnel of the nearby explosion will destroy the target. So it might very well explode next to the target plane, even when fired from below. | ||
m4ini
4215 Posts
July 22 2014 12:40 GMT
#1213
On July 22 2014 21:07 xM(Z wrote: would a ground to air missile, hit a plane from below? Not necessarily. It depends where the rocket was fired, it seems like they're designed to intercept, not to follow. So basically it tries to get in front of the target before hitting it (keep in mind, these BUK missiles are used to intercept rockets as well). That's what military experts say, i have no expertise with that. One thing though: a missile shot by a fighterjet behind the airliner, even with a proximity warhead, would not explode on the cockpit, but on the back/wings of the plane. The anti-air weapons a SU-25 can carry are all infrared-guided, not radar-guided. Meaning, they're heatseekers, going for the engines. | ||
xM(Z
Romania5257 Posts
July 22 2014 12:40 GMT
#1214
On July 22 2014 21:22 zatic wrote: Show nested quote + On July 22 2014 21:07 xM(Z wrote: would a ground to air missile, hit a plane from below? The missile has a proximity fuse, so it does not need to hit the plane directly, but will explode as soon as it is near enough to the target that the shock and shrapnel of the nearby explosion will destroy the target. So it might very well explode next to the target plane, even when fired from below. i was asking thinking that from the angle the shrapnel pierced the plane, one could tell if the missile was below or ahead/on the same plane, as the airliner which in turn, would tell you if it was a ground to air or air to air missile. Edit: i read m4ini reply too; it does more explaining. tnx | ||
Oshuy
Netherlands529 Posts
July 22 2014 12:59 GMT
#1215
On July 22 2014 21:40 xM(Z wrote: Show nested quote + On July 22 2014 21:22 zatic wrote: On July 22 2014 21:07 xM(Z wrote: would a ground to air missile, hit a plane from below? The missile has a proximity fuse, so it does not need to hit the plane directly, but will explode as soon as it is near enough to the target that the shock and shrapnel of the nearby explosion will destroy the target. So it might very well explode next to the target plane, even when fired from below. i was asking thinking that from the angle the shrapnel pierced the plane, one could tell if the missile was below or ahead/on the same plane, as the airliner which in turn, would tell you if it was a ground to air or air to air missile. Edit: i read m4ini reply too; it does more explaining. tnx I you get access to all debris, you can probably create a model to identify what missile was used, where it was relative to the plane and what its trajectory was at the time of the explosion. Unless trajectory is clearly coming from bellow (rare case surface to air for a short range shoot), position/trajectory provide mainly information on how missile was guided. This can be enough in some cases (heat seeker AAM vs radar seeker SAM). There are a few missiles that can be used as both air/air and ground/air, in which case the complete information wouldn't be enough to decide (no such missile in use in the region as far as I know). | ||
PaleMan
Russian Federation1953 Posts
July 22 2014 13:07 GMT
#1216
What I’ve been told by one source, who has provided accurate information on similar matters in the past, is that U.S. intelligence agencies do have detailed satellite images of the likely missile battery that launched the fateful missile, but the battery appears to have been under the control of Ukrainian government troops dressed in what look like Ukrainian uniforms. link | ||
Roggay
Switzerland6320 Posts
July 22 2014 13:21 GMT
#1217
On July 22 2014 22:07 PaleMan wrote: interesting article by Robert Parry Show nested quote + What I’ve been told by one source, who has provided accurate information on similar matters in the past, is that U.S. intelligence agencies do have detailed satellite images of the likely missile battery that launched the fateful missile, but the battery appears to have been under the control of Ukrainian government troops dressed in what look like Ukrainian uniforms. link Wait... This article says : Yes, there are limitations to what U.S. spy satellites can see. But the Buk missiles are about 16 feet long and they are usually mounted on trucks or tanks. But then it says : but the battery appears to have been under the control of Ukrainian government troops dressed in what look like Ukrainian uniforms. I really doubt you could see the uniform people are wearing with a satellite, but then again I might be wrong. | ||
farvacola
United States18768 Posts
July 22 2014 13:30 GMT
#1218
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zatic
Zurich15234 Posts
July 22 2014 13:30 GMT
#1219
On July 22 2014 22:07 PaleMan wrote: interesting article by Robert Parry Show nested quote + What I’ve been told by one source, who has provided accurate information on similar matters in the past, is that U.S. intelligence agencies do have detailed satellite images of the likely missile battery that launched the fateful missile, but the battery appears to have been under the control of Ukrainian government troops dressed in what look like Ukrainian uniforms. link Well apart from the obvious bias of the article (still talks about a neo-Nazi coup d'etat in Kyev), people tend to vastly overestimate what spy satellites can see. They can't, in fact, reliably track vehicles over large distances. They can surely identify a SA-11 missile system in transit or setup. However a spy satellite can only take pictures only so ofter per day (on every orbit around the globe) that's why they can't say anything more than "we believe" when a truck convoy is spotted in Ukraine that looks similar to one that was spotted hours before before in Russia. | ||
3Form
United Kingdom389 Posts
July 22 2014 13:38 GMT
#1220
On July 22 2014 22:21 Roggay wrote: Show nested quote + On July 22 2014 22:07 PaleMan wrote: interesting article by Robert Parry What I’ve been told by one source, who has provided accurate information on similar matters in the past, is that U.S. intelligence agencies do have detailed satellite images of the likely missile battery that launched the fateful missile, but the battery appears to have been under the control of Ukrainian government troops dressed in what look like Ukrainian uniforms. link Wait... This article says : Show nested quote + Yes, there are limitations to what U.S. spy satellites can see. But the Buk missiles are about 16 feet long and they are usually mounted on trucks or tanks. But then it says : Show nested quote + but the battery appears to have been under the control of Ukrainian government troops dressed in what look like Ukrainian uniforms. I really doubt you could see the uniform people are wearing with a satellite, but then again I might be wrong. Not to mention the beer bottles on the ground? | ||
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