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The European Union reached outline agreement on Friday to impose the first economic sanctions on Russia over its behavior in Ukraine but scaled back their scope to exclude technology for the crucial gas sector. The sanctions on access to capital markets, arms and hi-tech goods are also likely to apply only to future contracts, leaving France free to go ahead with the controversial delivery of Mistral helicopter carriers being built for Russia. After months of hesitation, the 28-nation EU toughened its stance toward Moscow after last week's downing of a Malaysian airliner, killing 298 people, in an area of eastern Ukraine held by Russian-backed separatists. Long article
But the situation escalates:
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On July 25 2014 22:47 Jochan wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2014 22:32 Ghanburighan wrote:On July 25 2014 22:23 Jochan wrote:On July 25 2014 20:54 radiatoren wrote:EU is preparing to raise the stakes and enter level 3 sanctions against Russia. The targets will be oil and gas industry: ReutersFinancial markets and future weapon deliveries (France won't sacrifice the Mistral deliveries) ReutersThe final decission has been delayed for early next week after the commission has specified the sanctions, but it looks like there will be enough of a majority for the strenghtening of the sanctions. I'm pretty sure, none of the hard hitting sanctions are gonna pass. It's not even the fear of the wrath of mighty Putin but a simple business decision. Which is a shame because there is no way you can put a dent in Russian imperialistic politic without taking some losses yourself, but if I am sure of one thing, it's that, the other way, war, is by far much more costly... I don't know what you mean by `hard hitting', if you mean 3rd level sanctions, they cannot truly back out of it now (especially as Russia seems to have escalated the conflict). But if you mean the Mistral sale, there will probably be some compromise, and the same with capital markets and natural resources. But that doesn't mean nothing will be passed next Tuesday. I mean those that hit them the hardest, their natural resources excavation/extraction - export branch which brings 50%+ budget revenue and supporting the recovery of Russian military potential by building them state of the art training facilities (Germans), equipment (French mistrals). Even Dutch can hit the extremely hard, Shell and Phillips are the biggest foreign companies in Russia. But as I said, it's all a mad mans dream. Exactly. The pace of Russian support for the terrorists has actually amped up after Malaysia act and so far the only thing that happened was another 10-18 Russians wont get to travel to Europe. Well -- they will, Surkov was tweeting from Europe after his ban was enacted -- but you know, theoretically it will be impossible.
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http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/25/eu-expands-russian-oligarch-sanctions-blacklist-mh17
"This is a huge problem for Hollande," said Bruno Tertrais, a senior research fellow at the Fondation pour la Recherche Stratégique in Paris. "The question of reputation as a supplier is as important at least as the money. If it was just about a billion euros, it would be different story." Yes, France must maintain its reputation as a reliable supplier of weapons no matter the circumstances or actions of its clients.
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The White House issued its strongest denunciation yet of Russian President Vladimir Putin over the downing of the Malaysia Airlines 3786.KU -2.22% flight in eastern Ukraine, saying Friday that available evidence shows the Russians are "culpable" in the plane crash. The charge came on the same day Pentagon officials said Moscow was preparing to transfer sophisticated rocket systems to pro-Russia separatists in Ukraine. U.S. officials said that while Russia has previously sent ground-attack rockets across the border, they have evidence that Russia was preparing to transfer heavier, more powerful rocket systems to the rebels, who have been struggling in recent weeks to counter the Ukrainian military. A day earlier, the Obama administration charged that Russian forces have fired artillery into Ukraine in an attempt to disrupt government forces. The U.S. criticism reflects a hardening of Washington's view that Russia supplied separatist allies with the surface-to-air weapon used to shoot down Flight 17, along with a message to European allies that Mr. Putin hasn't been embarrassed into backing down from his support of rebels. Source
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't expect anything interesting to be revealed before next week.
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Who has read the MH-17 = MH370 theory?
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i heard about it but wtf, how easy would be to debunk? ... you have passenger lists from both flights and IDs/passports/faces on videos
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On July 26 2014 17:06 ShadeR wrote: Who has read the MH-17 = MH370 theory? Why would anyone put any credit into that?
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Anyone who believes that theory is lacking simple brain functions. There are so so many reasons why it already debunked that to even entertain the thought is beyond stupid...
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On July 26 2014 22:01 Roggay wrote:Why would anyone put any credit into that? Never underestimate the power of the tinfoil hat
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That looks like a dubious reputation to have. Like "hey, look, we don't care in the slightest what you might do with those weapons as long as you pay us in full". It's like a drug dealer talking about reputation. The world after MH17 should know better.
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Well, it's a good reputation to have if you intend to sell weapons to everybody, not just people who are very obviously your allies. People would be pretty careful to make large longtime contracts with people who might just decide they don't like them anymore and cancel everything alltogether.
It is a bad reputation to have if you want to pass as an ethical human being.
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On July 25 2014 16:12 Maenander wrote: The question of which side is guilty over this incident is merely an emotional one. People want their side to be morally justified in everything.
This is absolutely correct, unless it was brought down by the Russians.
If the weapons were in Russia, or were supplied by Russia it creates a political situation then. That, combined with the recent revelation that Russia is firing artillery across the border in support of the rebels and the armored columns going from Russia to Ukraine suggest that Russia is waging a proxy war in Ukraine.
The whole situation is really sad. It is beyond time for the world to act. The response to Russia should have been the same response the world gave Iraq the early 90's. Leave the country you invaded, or be forced out. We, the United States told Ukraine we would protect them if they gave up their nuclear weapons. We are failing completely on that obligation.
Or we can try these pathetic and toothless sanctions that will be ignored, while people are oppressed and airliners are shot out of the sky.
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http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/27/world/europe/efforts-to-secure-malaysia-airlines-crash-site-stall-in-eastern-ukraine.html
Russia has repeatedly said it supports efforts to investigate the crash, but a television station with close ties to the Kremlin added a major obstacle on Friday with a report that seemed designed to provoke violent hostility toward foreign investigators among the rebels.
Life News, a Russian television station whose reports often veer into wild conspiracy theories, suggested that the Dutch government would use the crash investigation as a pretext to infiltrate special forces in rebel-held territory and hunt down and seize the separatists’ military commander, a Russian citizen known as Igor Strelkov. These are the kind of people the West is dealing with.
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On July 27 2014 02:01 BronzeKnee wrote: We, the United States told Ukraine we would protect them if they gave up their nuclear weapons. We are failing completely on that obligation..
There was only a promise of protection against a nuclear arsenal.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_weapons_and_Ukraine#The_Budapest_Memorandums
Why would Russia fear Ukraine joining NATO if there was already a commitment to protect them in the event of any form of aggression?
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On July 27 2014 04:10 discomatt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2014 02:01 BronzeKnee wrote: We, the United States told Ukraine we would protect them if they gave up their nuclear weapons. We are failing completely on that obligation.. There was only a promise of protection against a nuclear arsenal. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_weapons_and_Ukraine#The_Budapest_MemorandumsWhy would Russia fear Ukraine joining NATO if there was already a commitment to protect them in the event of any form of aggression?
The Budapest Memorandum didn't have a stick attached...
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The SMM visited four sites in Donetsk region related to the crash of Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17. At two sites, the SMM saw a wallet containing credit cards, three other credit cards belonging to three different people, two Dutch passports and a driver’s licence, a Malaysian identity card, and other personal documents. The documents had not been present on the SMM’s previous visits to these sites. At one site, the SMM noted that some debris had been cut and moved, and – in some instances – possibly removed. At another site, for the first time in four days, the SMM observed three emergency workers from the Ministry for Emergency Situations, who were handling a large piece of fuselage. They did not explain what they were doing. At the main crash site in and around the village of Grabove, the SMM observed, at three locations outside the village and at one inside the village itself, small pieces of human remains.
Source
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On July 27 2014 04:10 discomatt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2014 02:01 BronzeKnee wrote: We, the United States told Ukraine we would protect them if they gave up their nuclear weapons. We are failing completely on that obligation.. There was only a promise of protection against a nuclear arsenal. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_weapons_and_Ukraine#The_Budapest_MemorandumsWhy would Russia fear Ukraine joining NATO if there was already a commitment to protect them in the event of any form of aggression?
How do you interpret #3?
The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America reaffirm their obligation to refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine, and that none of their weapons will ever be used against Ukraine except in self-defence or otherwise in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations;
Since on this page there is a claim that Russia is supplying the rebellion in Ukraine with ever more advanced weapons. Which is a threat to the territorial integrity of Ukraine.
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On July 27 2014 08:19 Yurie wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2014 04:10 discomatt wrote:On July 27 2014 02:01 BronzeKnee wrote: We, the United States told Ukraine we would protect them if they gave up their nuclear weapons. We are failing completely on that obligation.. There was only a promise of protection against a nuclear arsenal. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_weapons_and_Ukraine#The_Budapest_MemorandumsWhy would Russia fear Ukraine joining NATO if there was already a commitment to protect them in the event of any form of aggression? How do you interpret #3? Show nested quote +The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America reaffirm their obligation to refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine, and that none of their weapons will ever be used against Ukraine except in self-defence or otherwise in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations;
Since on this page there is a claim that Russia is supplying the rebellion in Ukraine with ever more advanced weapons. Which is a threat to the territorial integrity of Ukraine. The point is that while Russia broke the Memorandum there is nothing obligating the other nations from intervening if it happens. Its a "we wont attack you". Not a "we will defend you".
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DONETSK, Ukraine — European monitors on Friday indicated for the first time that credit and debit cards belonging to people who died on Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 in eastern Ukraine had been moved inappropriately, though it was unclear whether anybody had tried to use them.
Debris from Flight 17 spilled over dozens of square miles, extending across sunflower fields, forests and villages. The huge site is almost wholly unguarded, though pro-Russian militants who control it have denied that looting has been allowed.
The movement of credit cards was the latest sign of tampering with the wreckage in ways large and small. The United States and Ukraine say that the airliner was shot down by a missile, likely supplied by Russia, from territory occupied by the same separatists who now control the debris field.
Source
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On July 27 2014 08:11 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:Show nested quote +The SMM visited four sites in Donetsk region related to the crash of Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17. At two sites, the SMM saw a wallet containing credit cards, three other credit cards belonging to three different people, two Dutch passports and a driver’s licence, a Malaysian identity card, and other personal documents. The documents had not been present on the SMM’s previous visits to these sites. At one site, the SMM noted that some debris had been cut and moved, and – in some instances – possibly removed. At another site, for the first time in four days, the SMM observed three emergency workers from the Ministry for Emergency Situations, who were handling a large piece of fuselage. They did not explain what they were doing. At the main crash site in and around the village of Grabove, the SMM observed, at three locations outside the village and at one inside the village itself, small pieces of human remains. Source
To a certain extent you have to do that to get the bodies out. Intimating that there's some sort of removal of evidence seems presumptuous at best especially considering all the pictures of the hull panels containing fragmentation round punctures on the internet. If someone is trying to suppress evidence, it isn't really being hidden very well.
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