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Hong Kong has a system not too far from the american in its construction, where a Chief Executive of Hong Kong corresponds to the president and the Legislative Council corresponds to the congress.
The current Hong Kong method for election of their Legislative Council works like this: 35 are elected in 5 constituencies through proportional voting. 5 are elected from the district councils. The distict councils have approximately 75 % elected members and most of the rest are appointed by the Chief Executive of Hong Kong. 30 are elected by socalled Functional Constituencies. Functional Constituencies are specific interests, mostly business sectors. The members are elected from a select constituency of the population and bodies like companies have their own votes in addition.
The current Hong Kong method of electing their Chief Executive works like this: A 1200 man Electoral Council nominates candidates and eventually elects the Chief Executive for a five year term after having published their personal favourites. The Electoral Council members have about 75 % chosen by Functional Constituencies and 25 % are made up of different types of representatives from the Legislative Council, the District Councils and several other political bodies.
The topic of democracy has been contentious in Hong Kong even from before they were transferred to China in 1997. In the pre-chinese days articles in their Basic Law claims the ultimate goal in the elections is universal suffrage.
They have in several instances been promised a democratisation of the system and it has sparked a lot of controvercy in debates over the years, that the system undeniably has been moving towards a more democratic method, but incredibly slowly according to the democracy movement. The latest protests were sparked after the chinese government made an announcement by the end of august about the 2016 election to the Legislative Council being continued under unchanged rules and the election for the Chief Executive being: 2 or 3 candidates selected by a majority in an unchanged Electoral Council, followed by a public voting and a final approval by the chinese government. China has several times by several people stated that the person elected must love China and love Hong Kong and anyone opposing China therefore cannot take on the post. Occupy Central, which is a primarily student-run pro-democracy organisation is campaigning for letting the public nominate the candidates for the Chief Executive, which has been opposed by China.
The current situation in Hong Kong developed from a series of demonstrations run by Occupy Central and other pro-democracy organisations. Demonstrations for democracy are common in Hong Kong, but these demonstrations have been very large. On friday a group of students tried to stop the Hong Hong parliaments work on following Chinas appeal, which lead to a confrontation with the police. Further escalation of confrontations happened through the weekend, while the situation between protesters and the police has cooled down significantly since then.
China has reacted in an uncoordinated manner with some running the foreign incitement, individual terrorist and we are stability song and dance we all know and love, some being relatively cautious and somewhat realistic, but most just ignoring the situation as just another day in Hong Kong.
Right now it seems both sides in the demonstrations are content with “waiting it out”. Hong Kongs current CE has been on the calming side with assurances of the chinese army not coming and riot police only getting redeployed if needed and an appeal to respect the Legislative Council and stopping the hating of China.
(Most of it is collected from other tertiery sources and can therefore lack some of the nuances.)
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This was an oddly biased pro China opening post. One wonders about your motivation for this post.
I mean, the links at the bottom isn't even a discription or analysis of the events. No mention of the police pepper spraying and tear gassing peaceful protesters? You have chosen 5 day old event of the protest and the most "violent" one of the peaceful proceedings. It's even been called the most polite demonstration in the world ever. And the other is just a blatant paid for China piece.
If you want a daily update heres one: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-29428659
Anyhow, I don't want to fight a Beijing propagandist. If anyone wants to read up on the current affairs, don't click on those 5 day old and uninformed links, sinply google hong kong into the news and form your opinions.
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On October 02 2014 06:21 Dangermousecatdog wrote: This was an oddly biased pro China opening post. One wonders about your motivation for this post. How is it oddly pro-China? I thought it was fairly neutral.
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On October 02 2014 06:21 Dangermousecatdog wrote: This was an oddly biased pro China opening post. One wonders about your motivation for this post. If you actually engaged on the points or on the topic such an opening has a possibility to spark discussion. Focus on the actual demonstrations usually becomes a bit emotionally charged, while blasting China for their extreme censorship and suppression of separatism kicking into gear would just be another China-bashing thread. By presenting the situation in a very non-confrontatory way, it should give plenty of space for the discussion to meander.
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Being Danish is the perfect cover for a Beijing propagandist.
More on topic, here's to hoping that the protests bear positive fruit.
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Thought it was surprising that this didn't get a thread sooner.
I think the whole hardcore censoring of social media (in addition to the usual Chinese censorship) shows there is a bit more concern for this spreading into the mainland.
I say go for it! What I think is kind of funny is that all China has to do is look at the American system to figure out how you can give everyone a 'real vote' and they still will have very little (if not 0) influence on important policy.
The central point that emerges from our research is that economic elites and organized groups representing business interests have substantial independent impacts on U.S. government policy, while mass-based interest groups and average citizens have little or no independent influence.
Source
Either way seems like these protesters mean business this time. While I hope this spreads to the mainland in the interest of self determination, it gives me concern for what a revolutionary China means to global stability.
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To be honest, it's a weird quagmire for China to be in. If they give in, they look weak, if they don't something will have to be done. From what I've understand they're letting the HK gov't take care of it right now. Which is pretty much the smart move, if they were to send forces from mainland China, the pushback internationally (and locally) would be even bigger than it is now.
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On October 02 2014 06:21 Dangermousecatdog wrote:This was an oddly biased pro China opening post. One wonders about your motivation for this post. I mean, the links at the bottom isn't even a discription or analysis of the events. No mention of the police pepper spraying and tear gassing peaceful protesters? You have chosen 5 day old event of the protest and the most "violent" one of the peaceful proceedings. It's even been called the most polite demonstration in the world ever. And the other is just a blatant paid for China piece. If you want a daily update heres one: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-29428659Anyhow, I don't want to fight a Beijing propagandist. If anyone wants to read up on the current affairs, don't click on those 5 day old and uninformed links, sinply google hong kong into the news and form your opinions. I have removed the sources from the OP since they didn't really contribute much anyway, even if they were from reputable sources. If I were a Beijing propagandist I wouldn't focus on how the subject is being intolerable and I surely wouldn't mention the chinese resistance to democratic reforms or how some of their politicians parrot the dictators motto.
Edit: As for setting the tone, I believe there is plenty of room for analysing said OP. I made some points about the structure in Hong Kong lacking democratic legitimacy and Chinas resistance to changing said system. The specific demonstration was likely what lead to the later confrontations and the trigger event for the "umbrella demonstration" that followed. Given the common occurance of demonstrations in Hong Kong, the demonstrations on their own shouldn't be able to ignite it. Today the protests are extremely peaceful in true Dalai Lama-style, but since it is a developing story, it will of course be covered by others as things are happening. I am just laying the ground for discussing the topic by presenting some of the important facts.
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Seems like a well written OP to me, decidedly neutral too. When your too invested in one side of a debate anything that doesn't highlight the worst parts that the opposition has done probably seems biased to you.
More on topic, damn it is the most polite protest I have personally read about. Protesters picking up all their litter every morning after the sit-ins of the previous night, offering food/blankets to people etc.
Seems like a well organised movement. All though not too sure what their demands are. Surely none of them realistically expects HK to have fully democratic system of voting right? It would be political suicide for the communist party if they ever allowed it, it would basically invalidate all the justification for their existence to ordinary citizens on the mainland. To simply demand full democracy would pretty much be a direct attack on the party itself.
*Note: My friends who work in HK are complaining they can't get to/from work anymore, trains don't run, buses are blocked at key junctions, forced unpaid leave is never nice.
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I was wondering when some one was going to open a post about this. Obviously thousands of people in the streets will make some sort of impact, but I feel like if they want to accomplish anything, especially in a city of millions, they'll need more than just a few thousands.
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Ugh I thought the OP was very neutral and unbiased, but it looks like it's been edited significantly since the initial posting, so perhaps it was much less so before...
Of course if you assume the mainstream western media to be the unbiased truth, anything presented in a different light (mainly from China's side) will be viewed as false propaganda. Honestly it's a little unsettling how quickly yall jumped to the "Beijing propagandist" conclusion. Focusing on the pepper spraying and tear gassing brings relatively little value to understanding the situation compared to a calm description of the actual changes in the Hong Kong election systems.
Anyways I think this thread should be closed ASAP as just from the first page there is little hope that it will be anything more than a pro-China/anti-China mutual bash that's not informative anyway.
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He only took 2 article links out; the body remains unchanged.
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On October 02 2014 06:12 radiatoren wrote: Hong Kong has a system not too far from the american in its construction, where a Chief Executive of Hong Kong corresponds to the president and the Legislative Council corresponds to the congress.
The current Hong Kong method for election of their Legislative Council works like this: 35 are elected in 5 constituencies through proportional voting. 5 are elected from the district councils. The distict councils have approximately 75 % elected members and most of the rest are appointed by the Chief Executive of Hong Kong. 30 are elected by socalled Functional Constituencies. Functional Constituencies are specific interests, mostly business sectors. The members are elected from a select constituency of the population and bodies like companies have their own votes in addition.
So it's nothing like the US system, is it? Sounds more like a corporatist system similar to inter-war Italy or Franco's Spain.
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On October 02 2014 07:08 farvacola wrote: He only took 2 article links out; the body remains unchanged.
Then from the recent replies, I'm certainly not the only who thought it was a fair OP. Since you already have come to the conclusion that the OP is a CCP propagandist disguised as a Danish person, then whatever floats your boat.
Like I said, as interesting as this development in the world may be, this is not a forum with the right community to have a real discussion. Close the thread before it turns into more of a flame war.
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On October 02 2014 07:12 hypercube wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2014 06:12 radiatoren wrote: Hong Kong has a system not too far from the american in its construction, where a Chief Executive of Hong Kong corresponds to the president and the Legislative Council corresponds to the congress.
The current Hong Kong method for election of their Legislative Council works like this: 35 are elected in 5 constituencies through proportional voting. 5 are elected from the district councils. The distict councils have approximately 75 % elected members and most of the rest are appointed by the Chief Executive of Hong Kong. 30 are elected by socalled Functional Constituencies. Functional Constituencies are specific interests, mostly business sectors. The members are elected from a select constituency of the population and bodies like companies have their own votes in addition. So it's nothing like the US system, is it? Sounds more like a corporatist system similar to inter-war Italy or Franco's Spain. Democratically it is not like USA. In terms of separation of power it seems like a relevant comparison. I don't know inter-war Italy or Franco's Spain well enough to compare and I doubt the majority here do. Hong Kong has a multi-party system so I am not sure fascist or communist covers it well, but the corporatist part of it seems relevant.
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Honestly as sad as it is, unless there is... actually rioting and people dying, nothing will come out of this protest. Most likely this will just turn into another occupy wall street which means nothing changed.
"Regime is born out of a gun barrel" - Mao
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On October 02 2014 07:46 radiatoren wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2014 07:12 hypercube wrote:On October 02 2014 06:12 radiatoren wrote: Hong Kong has a system not too far from the american in its construction, where a Chief Executive of Hong Kong corresponds to the president and the Legislative Council corresponds to the congress.
The current Hong Kong method for election of their Legislative Council works like this: 35 are elected in 5 constituencies through proportional voting. 5 are elected from the district councils. The distict councils have approximately 75 % elected members and most of the rest are appointed by the Chief Executive of Hong Kong. 30 are elected by socalled Functional Constituencies. Functional Constituencies are specific interests, mostly business sectors. The members are elected from a select constituency of the population and bodies like companies have their own votes in addition. So it's nothing like the US system, is it? Sounds more like a corporatist system similar to inter-war Italy or Franco's Spain. Democratically it is not like USA. In terms of separation of power it seems like a relevant comparison.
Maybe in some very technical sense. But fact that the system seems to be designed to subvert the rule of the majority is far more relevant.
Hong Kong has a multi-party system so I am not sure fascist or communist covers it well, but the corporatist part of it seems relevant.
That's the point: such an extensive use of corporatism is incompatible with democratic principles. That's exactly what the protests seem to be about. Beijing wants a system that it can effectively control and where the democratic elements are reduced to a mostly symbolic role. The protesters want a system where the people they vote for can wield effective power.
I don't think this is very controversial or inaccurate, although if you disagree I'd be interested to hear why.
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On October 02 2014 08:22 haduken wrote: Honestly as sad as it is, unless there is... actually rioting and people dying, nothing will come out of this protest. Most likely this will just turn into another occupy wall street which means nothing changed.
"Regime is born out of a gun barrel" - Mao
I think the difference is these protests come after occupy wallstreet, and citizens around the world watched, and hopefully learned from that outcome.
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On October 02 2014 08:38 Defessus wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2014 08:22 haduken wrote: Honestly as sad as it is, unless there is... actually rioting and people dying, nothing will come out of this protest. Most likely this will just turn into another occupy wall street which means nothing changed.
"Regime is born out of a gun barrel" - Mao I think the difference is these protests come after occupy wallstreet, and citizens around the world watched, and hopefully learned from that outcome. But nothing really came out of occupy wallstreet...
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