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On June 20 2018 09:38 IgnE wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2018 09:19 Plansix wrote:On June 20 2018 09:08 IgnE wrote: Plan "Ecclesiastes" Six: there is nothing new under the sun; everything is the same as everything else Homeless people have existed for all of written history. There is nothing new about the issues we are discussing now. oh jesus christ learn to qualify yourself. how do you get up in the morning if every day is the same Because I accept that challenges of human nature have endless complexity that fools both educated and simple minded into believing their challenges are unique.
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that's borderline incoherent
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And its totally irrelevant. Get a room, you two
Regardless if you like Roma and their lifestyle or not, putting them on a list to discuss "the Roma question" is not the way to go.
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On June 20 2018 08:21 Plansix wrote: That just sounds like homeless people in the US if the city is stupid enough not to provide regular garbage pick up for whatever homeless community crops up. The homeless people normally respond by just dumping their garbage on the ground.
Yes, but Roma are nomadic people, not homeless. Yet they take advantage of housing and other social security measures, which is why people are mad at them. If they just lived in the streets or wherever and threw their trash around there it would mean nothing to most people. But since they live in the cities, they're also neighbours and what do you do when your neighbours shit up your street on the regular? Roma you can tie to a few families only over all of Europe and their behaviour is pretty much the same everywhere. It's not like they're the new jews or anything, they've been under scrutiny at best and at the receiving end of genocide at worst throughout their entire history. And while nobody should be killed for living like a pig, you still should be held accountable and stop making it an issue about "race". When people say "Roma" they mean a few thousand people who all have family ties and are well connected, they're just a family of thieves and burglars in the end.
Just a couple years back police in Germany made arrests of some 20 people from just one family branch, who were living in a villa with cash money stuffed everywhere and rooms filled to the brim with stolen shit like TVs, laptops and phones. They found out the family was organized like a mafia clan and would recruit kids as young as 10 for criminal activities and begging from Italy and the Balkan. The term "Roma question" feels uneasy for everyone German for sure, but it is valid, since there is indeed a question that has to be answered. Do they want to be part of society or not? If not, grant them some land somewhere and let them do them, which btw is what cities are already doing. Around here there is a trailer park inhabited by Roma, illegally founded decades ago. When the city tries to reach out to them and talk about water, electricity, sanitation and shit the Roma just do nothing on their end to improve the situation. Because they'd have to pay for it like everyone else does. So they just tap wires, don't use garbage cans and leave behind nothing but a shithole, if they ever leave that is. And then you reach the point where you have to grant people special rights like their personal garbage disposal payed for by a system which they don't even recognize or respect.
It is like with many things going wrong today in the ethnics department, people just got so used to abusing a minority status it has reached a point of absurdity, where someone who's from the US and obviously has no clue about the issue at all compares them to regular homeless people as if there weren't any of those in Europe. If anything you could compare them to the people living in trailer parks in the desert who wanna be left alone and shoot up meth.
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On June 21 2018 01:27 [DUF]MethodMan wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2018 08:21 Plansix wrote: That just sounds like homeless people in the US if the city is stupid enough not to provide regular garbage pick up for whatever homeless community crops up. The homeless people normally respond by just dumping their garbage on the ground. If anything you could compare them to the people living in trailer parks in the desert who wanna be left alone and shoot up meth. Just to be clear, I don’t think people addicted to drugs are inherently bad people that need to be on a registry or looked down upon. They cause problems and of course they should be addressed for the safety of other citizens, but they are not blight that must be eliminated.
And I may have no personal experience with the Roma, I do have a lot of experience with broad generalizations about groups of people across massive areas of the world. I treat them all with a grain of salt. I am sure some Roma communities are filled with some real assholes. And I am sure there are others who just want to be left alone.
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No one that is neighboring Romas like them, they don't fit in our societies but leech of them in whatever way possible. Comparing them to homeless people is really not fair to the homeless.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On June 21 2018 02:29 Velr wrote: No one that is neighboring Romas like them, they don't fit in our societies but leech of them in whatever way possible. Comparing them to homeless people is really not fair to the homeless.
And people here thought my opinions were extreme... :D
Edit: Your previous posts say you're left wing, so it's very surprising.
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On June 21 2018 02:29 Velr wrote: No one that is neighboring Romas like them, they don't fit in our societies but leech of them in whatever way possible. Comparing them to homeless people is really not fair to the homeless. Nonsense. I've had Roma neighbours, coworkers, schoolmates that were just regular folks living like the rest of us, can you guys not generalize an entire ethnicity when specifically talking only about the traits of the nomadic traditionalist Roma. And would Salvini's list and whatever policies based on it only include the latter group? When they were enslaved we didn't care whether they are assimilated or 'troublesome', only that they are gypsies.
Here's some observations from mid 19th century:
+ Show Spoiler +
From https://books.google.ro/books/about/Critical_Readings_on_Global_Slavery_4_vo.html?id=wdBCDwAAQBAJ
Another bit of trivia, the words for gypsy in Eastern Europe come from the Greek for 'untouchable'.
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On June 20 2018 08:21 Plansix wrote: That just sounds like homeless people in the US if the city is stupid enough not to provide regular garbage pick up for whatever homeless community crops up. The homeless people normally respond by just dumping their garbage on the ground.
First of all, we're not talking about homeless people. We're talking about nomadic people, and in the case of Essen, they have apartments (and houses in fact, or lets call them "clan headquarters, plus storage for stolen goods" - as police raids have shown).
Second, it's not job of the city to clean after roma clans, the fuck. We're talking truck loads here. Not just bonbon wrappers, but what we call "Sperrmuell". Translator says "bulk garbage". We have weekly trash collection in germany, but you can't just send two trucks into a single street filled with stripped out washing machines, furniture, TVs etc. In germany trash gets seperated, the city can't just roll there with a garbage truck and throw everything into the back (where it doesn't fit anyway).
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In my experience, the Roma who are integrated generally don't want anything to do with the Roma community. They find it toxic and stay away from it.
People defending Roma here keep making it about ethnicity, when in reality it's about culture. Like Velr said, their culture is parasitic in nature.
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The entire discussion stemmed from Italy’s plan to create a registry of Roma to deal with the “Roma question”. I’m not really confident that that registry will be based on culture, rather than ethnicity. Historically, that isn’t how these sort of things play out.
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This thread is hilarious. I say something about immigration, then I get a bunch of left-wing guys who attack me. Velr insults all or most Roma people, then he barely gets shit about it. Consistency, guys, consistency.
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On June 21 2018 06:14 sc-darkness wrote: This thread is hilarious. I say something about immigration, then I get a bunch of left-wing guys who attack me. Velr insults all or most Roma people, then he barely gets shit about it. Consistency, guys, consistency. To be fair, you made a claim that they were all on welfare, which people asked you to substantiate. Velr was a naked insult against an entire ethnic group with a thin veil of only talking about nomadic Roma.
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Another tune, for some historic perspective...
Italy's treatment of Roma people rooted in centuries-old prejudice
History of persecution includes enslavement, forced sterilisation and massacres
When Italy’s new government attacked the country’s Roma population, threatening to expel thousands from the country, they were tapping into centuries-old prejudices against the group.
Persecution of the Roma in Europe dates back at least several hundred years. The Council of Europe details including enslavement, forced sterilisation, separation from children and massacres.
Roma have Indian roots, and migrated slowly westwards over hundreds of years, appearing in historical records from Europe by the 14th century. Originally nomadic, though now settled in many areas, they were first targeted by European officials over 500 years ago.
“Roma were banned from the Holy Roman Empire in 1501 and, as of this date, could be caught and killed by any citizen,” the Council of Europe explains. In France less than two centuries later, Louis XIV ordered that all Gypsy men be condemned to forced labour for life without trial, women be sterilised and children be sent to poorhouses.
As the Enlightenment spread across Europe in the 18th century, Roma were among the many excluded.
Spain in 1749 launched an operation known as the “great Gypsy round-up”; Roma were enslaved in parts of what is now Romania until 1856. The Austro-Hungarian empire ran a fierce “assimilation” policy that involved separating children and parents, the Council of Europe explains.
Roma were among the targets of Nazi laws introduced in the 1930s, and Italy’s own fascist ethnic cleansing rules of the 1920s, and during the second world war hundreds of thousands were killed in massacres and at concentration camps.
The Roma even have their own word for the Holocaust of their people during the second world war, the . Although the exact death toll is not known, in some countries the killing wiped out up to 90% of the Roma population.
In the immediate aftermath of the war, many Roma concentration camp survivors were help and compensation. In the decades that followed, stigmatisation and discrimination has continued across much of Europe.
As late as the 1970s, Switzerland was taking children from their parents, arguing that they couldn’t educate them to be good citizens. A recent study in Britain found a huge rise in Romany and Traveller families having their children taken away, a trend blamed on institutional prejudice.
This decade alone they have been segregated in schools in Hungary, Czech Republic and Slovakia and databases or other surveys such as the one proposed in Italy are not unprecedented in other parts of Europe.
Last year a Swedish appeals court ruled that police should pay compensation after setting up an illegal database of Roma family trees that included several thousand people, many of them children, or individuals without any criminal record. Source
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On June 20 2018 10:36 IgnE wrote: that's borderline incoherent
No it isn't. I understood it perfectly. What about it do you find hard to follow?
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On June 21 2018 07:26 iamthedave wrote:No it isn't. I understood it perfectly. What about it do you find hard to follow?
i didnt say it was hard to follow. its a fairly simple thought. i said it was incoherent, inconsistent, incongruous. starting from the proposition that everything is the same, plansix argues that human problems have "endless complexity," that is, infinite complexity. given that human beings are finite, it makes one wonder how any human can gain an instantaneous view of this infinite complexity. on the contrary, one is tempted to think that any human's finite view of "the endlessly complex" Situation is drastically limited, and by virtue of any person's unique perspective, fairly unique to them. so what makes them such a fool to think that their delimited situation is "unique" in comparison to this infinitely complex Situation and in what meaningful sense is any person's finite situation (ie some delimited perspective in the time and space of the Situation) "the same" as any other's? is it possible that plansix doesn't care about the words he's using? that he wants the homeless everywhere to be the same while being open to an "endless complexity" that might actually differentiate the homeless? what sense does he add then? nonsense? maybe he just adds simple phatic gestures of liberal belonging?
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On June 21 2018 08:39 IgnE wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2018 07:26 iamthedave wrote:On June 20 2018 10:36 IgnE wrote: that's borderline incoherent No it isn't. I understood it perfectly. What about it do you find hard to follow? i didnt say it was hard to follow. its a fairly simple thought. i said it was incoherent, inconsistent, incongruous. starting from the proposition that everything is the same, plansix argues that human problems have "endless complexity," that is, infinite complexity. given that human beings are finite, it makes one wonder how any human can gain an instantaneous view of this infinite complexity. on the contrary, one is tempted to think that any human's finite view of "the endlessly complex" Situation is drastically limited, and by virtue of any person's unique perspective, fairly unique to them. so what makes them such a fool to think that their delimited situation is "unique" in comparison to this infinitely complex Situation and in what meaningful sense is any person's finite situation (ie some delimited perspective in the time and space of the Situation) "the same" as any other's? is it possible that plansix doesn't care about the words he's using? that he wants the homeless everywhere to be the same while being open to an "endless complexity" that might actually differentiate the homeless? what sense does he add then? nonsense? maybe he just adds simple phatic gestures of liberal belonging? He didn't say everything is the same. The way I read his posts was that the issue of garbage disposal, among others, is the same for homeless camps and Romani camps (from the perspective of a city administration), even though the 'why' is nuanced. And let's not dissect the colloquial use of words like 'endless' as if they are meant mathematically.
I don't necessarily agree that just because the base issues are the same the solutions are as well, but his point was not incoherent, at least my interpretation of it. A lot of the long pointless arguments on this forum stem from assuming the worst possible version of what the other person meant.
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On June 21 2018 05:47 Plansix wrote: The entire discussion stemmed from Italy’s plan to create a registry of Roma to deal with the “Roma question”. I’m not really confident that that registry will be based on culture, rather than ethnicity. Historically, that isn’t how these sort of things play out.
Hypocrisy. Emilia-Romagna (a big region in Italy that has always been left-guided since 1948) made a registry for Roma in 2012 and noone batted an eye. Salvini proposes it and people loses their shit. Typical behaviour of the Italian left. This is the link with the complete pdf report at the bottom of the page. Unfortunately it is in italian - I don't think it exists in English. http://sociale.regione.emilia-romagna.it/esclusione-sociale-e-poverta/rapporto-sulla-popolazione-sinta-e-rom-in-emilia-romagna-anno-2012
To the guy saying he knows Roma people and they are ok...do you realize this is like saying hey, I know an ISIS guy and he is really nice and caring, therefore there is no problem with ISIS. The fact that few people are good doesn't change the fact that Romas create problem everywhere they go. In fact, it just shows how there is no chance of redemption for them since good Romas are ostracized or dealt with violence by the majority.
What do I propose? Nothing, because I believe there is no solution anymore.
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To the guy saying he knows Roma people and they are ok...do you realize this is like saying hey, I know an ISIS guy and he is really nice and caring, therefore there is no problem with ISIS. The fact that few people are good doesn't change the fact that Romas create problem everywhere they go. In fact, it just shows how there is no chance of redemption for them since good Romas are ostracized or dealt with violence by the majority.
What do I propose? Nothing, because I believe there is no solution anymore.
That analogy is a bit wrong though.
Correct would've been that you know a deeply religious muslim, and he's okay - hence ISIS must be fine too. I do agree that there of course are Roma that integrate into society, but that's not the bunch that are the problem. The problem here seems to be simply the disparity between the "visibility" of integrated Romas and the dirtbags. If you have a clan in your neighbourhood, you see, smell and feel it after your shit got nicked. You wouldn't even realise integrated Romas in your neighbourhood (from experience with Lebanese people, but the borderline still applies).
In regards to the registry, it doesn't do shit either way. I'd be against it for that very reason, it's just populistic "look here we're fucking with them". Especially with nomadic clans, you count them now and in two weeks they're somewhere else in Italy with others taking their place. It's just window dressing. Since it costs money and resources, eh.
What should be done, is to legalise stop and frisk - and targeted police action. Especially in Rome, Naples, Pisa and all the other major tourist hotspots. If you see three roma kids sneaking around the line for an attraction, you better make sure that all you stuff is still in your pockets. Put two cops on patrol and target these specifically, even if you can't prosecute them - they'll leave once their "day job" is impossible to do. If two cops isn't enough, get the public order office involved for more manpower.
edit: that's assuming italy has a public order office - i know the german "Ordnungsamt", pesky fuckers. They're the ones handling parking offenses, checking restaurants for health issues etc.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_enforcement
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m4ini, unfortunately your solution isn't helpful. In big cities like Rome there are soldiers stationed around hotspots (i.e. subway patrolling etc.) and you think of police as an infinite resource. It doesn't work like that. You put two soldiers there, they just move to another spot - you can't have policemen everywhere and for every person doing that kind of job, you would lose a policeman for another (perhaps more important) activity.
Take a look at this video: + Show Spoiler +
You see this shit? Teenagers slapping soldiers who can't do shit because God forbid if the girl gets hurt - then we would have the usual 'are soldiers fascist?' 'with Salvini, italy is turning into a fascist state' headlines. Get me out of here.
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