look at it from the perspective of an information system.
European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread - Page 417
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oneofthem
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
look at it from the perspective of an information system. | ||
trulojucreathrma.com
United States327 Posts
On February 04 2016 07:58 Krikkitone wrote: The problem with pure democracy is that people get what they deserve, and the average citizen deserves a life that is nasty, brutish, and short....The French didn't "deserve" Napleon's enlightened despotism, they "deserved" the mob rule of the terror. Fortunately they figured out that they did not want to get what they "deserved" so they limited their democracy. Pure democracy is a bad idea, it is actually worse than some other forms of government such as limited democracy... which is not as terrible as any other form of government. Now some limited democracies may need more democracy, some need less, but pure democracies are a very very bad idea. Your post is such gibberish, I can't even tell if you got the history wrong or right. Let alone find an argument. All I can say, if you truly believed as much, or little, in democracy as you would claim, you would refrain from giving your opinion, because no one asked yours. There's only one reason you are even allowed to give your opinion unasked, and that's people unlike you. Maybe lead by example and keep your opinion to yourself unless asked for it. You'd be staying true to your own beliefs and you won't be annoying anyone else, to put it mildly, and avoid being a hypocrite. Now of course, me as a true democrat, I'd encourage you to speak your mind as much as possible. The less right you may occasionally be, the sooner you, or others, will figure that out, to the benefit of others, and maybe yourself as well. All I have to say is that Napoleon is an ironic example. | ||
WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
On February 04 2016 09:16 oneofthem wrote: this romantic notion of the people is just a political thing. there are humans of various beliefs and education levels etc. you need good ideas and committed individuals willing and capable to lead, and you need an information filter and presentation process that works. look at it from the perspective of an information system. lol individualism at its best. The state is another form of market. | ||
corumjhaelen
France6884 Posts
Was I naïve to think of it as a group of human being lol | ||
RvB
Netherlands6077 Posts
Europe’s political outsiders aren’t only racking up gains at the ballot box. The threat of a U.K. exit from the European Union and a looming Dutch referendum show they don’t need to be in government to shape policy. The once doggedly pro-European Netherlands is set to offer an example with a referendum triggered by a motley array of citizens groups that could kill an EU-Ukraine trade and association pact. Ukraine isn’t the overriding issue: the people just want to be heard. “First and foremost it’s a warning signal toward our own government and Brussels,” said Bart Nijman, a writer for the GeenStijl news and commentary site and one of the referendum’s initiators. He called the Ukraine accord “a starting point for a bigger question: how big can decisions be that the EU makes without asking the people first?” Crudely put, the euro debt crisis starting in 2010 and the refugee crisis as of 2015 have kindled two strands of just-say-no politics. On the left, mainly in the economically shattered south, the revolt is against the dictates of creditor capitalism, a European counterpart to the Occupy movement in the U.S. Direct Democracy On the right, mainly north of the Alps, the enemy has more than a million faces -- those of the asylum-seekers from places like Syria, Iraq and Afghanistan who have crowded into Europe in the past year, bringing social frictions and terrorism angst. The closest American analogue is the Tea Party or Donald Trump’s wall-building conceits. Both sides invoke direct democracy, broadening the appeal to the oft-silent majorities in the middle. The Dutch aren’t alone in putting policy to a popular vote: Britain, the scene of equally charged polemics on immigration, plans a referendum as soon as June on whether to exit the 28-nation EU. But EU countries have nothing on non-member Switzerland, the world’s pioneer in consulting the people. Swiss voters have rejected joining the bloc, and in a 2014 referendum capped the number of work permits for fellow Europeans. The Dutch vote on European trade and political ties with Ukraine on April 6 reflects the increased restlessness on the opposition benches in what was once the EU’s heartland. The left fears the erosion of European labor and ecological standards, the right fears the hollowing-out of the state. ‘Fed Up’ Marianne Thieme is in the social-justice camp. As head of the first animal-welfare party to win seats in a European legislature, she opposes the overture to Ukraine because it would let in more industrially produced foods, undercutting higher-cost, higher-quality European farmers. “People are really fed up,” Thieme said. “Ukraine has a totally different legal system in terms of protection of animal welfare, labor and the environment. It’s a hard one for a trading nation like the Dutch.” Some 49 percent of the Dutch were “fairly positive” or “very positive” about the EU in late 2009, on the eve of the euro crisis, according to a Europe-wide poll. Now that figure is down to 34 percent, thanks to the perceived costs of open wallets (to subsidize weak southern European economies) and open borders (to let in mostly Muslim refugees). That sentiment fell to as low as 28 percent in 2013. The negativity is made incarnate by Geert Wilders, who as head of the Freedom Party has turned euroskepticism into an art form. Wanting Muslims out of the Netherlands and the Netherlands out of the EU -- and facing trial in March for racist invective about Moroccans -- his party tops the opinion polls. Opinion Polls “In the Netherlands there’s a tradition of both left-wing and right-wing euroskeptics,” said Simon Otjes, a researcher on Dutch politics at Groningen University. “These groups use different arguments and different angles, but they’re united in the resistance to the full integration of the EU.” Dutch politicians who otherwise are barely on speaking terms pulled in the same direction in 2005 to defeat a referendum on a proposed EU constitution. The fact that European leaders, with the Dutch parliament’s assent, went ahead with many of the constitution’s provisions stoked the grass-roots fury that led to the passage of a consultative referendum law in 2015. The Ukraine vote is the law’s first test. With campaigning just under way, opinions are tightening. Opponents of liberalized EU-Ukraine trade are ahead by 55.5 percent to 44.5 percent, narrowing from 62 percent to 38 percent in December, according to a poll published Feb. 1 in De Volksrant. The April verdict won’t be sloughed off: a majority in parliament, perhaps seeing it as a trial run for next year’s national election, has pledged to respect the outcome. Whether that would stop the expansion of EU-Ukraine ties is unclear: the Netherlands could be exempted from the treaty’s political clauses, or a declaration could be tacked on that Ukraine isn’t en route to EU membership. Official Dutch unease with Europe comes across in Prime Minister Mark Rutte’s bare-bones agenda for the country’s stint chairing EU meetings in the first half of 2016. New European initiatives are out and the government is even recycling the logo it used the last time around, in 2004. A “democratic revolution” is in the works, with the Internet remaking society much as the printing press did, said Thierry Baudet, chairman of the Forum for Democracy and a co-initiator of the referendum. “Politics needs to change alongside those major events. And the EU is the most outdated of all: it’s the 1970s solution to a 1950s problem.” www.bloomberg.com | ||
farvacola
United States18768 Posts
On February 04 2016 15:15 corumjhaelen wrote: Think of it as an information system is pretty genius. Was I naïve to think of it as a group of human being lol Gosh, Corum, so naive. | ||
oneofthem
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
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Krikkitone
United States1451 Posts
On February 04 2016 11:37 trulojucreathrma.com wrote: Your post is such gibberish, I can't even tell if you got the history wrong or right. Let alone find an argument. All I can say, if you truly believed as much, or little, in democracy as you would claim, you would refrain from giving your opinion, because no one asked yours. There's only one reason you are even allowed to give your opinion unasked, and that's people unlike you. Maybe lead by example and keep your opinion to yourself unless asked for it. You'd be staying true to your own beliefs and you won't be annoying anyone else, to put it mildly, and avoid being a hypocrite. Now of course, me as a true democrat, I'd encourage you to speak your mind as much as possible. The less right you may occasionally be, the sooner you, or others, will figure that out, to the benefit of others, and maybe yourself as well. All I have to say is that Napoleon is an ironic example. Free speech =/= Democracy Democracy is the majority of people decide what happens...think a trouble maker saying unpopular things should be executed (Socrates), put it to a vote, majority wins. If 55 % of people vote Republican, members of the Democratic party have to report for reeducation. Pure Democracy is very, very bad (not that it has ever actually truly occurred for more than fleeting instances) That is why you have Limited Democracy, (Constitutions that Limit democracy, Supermajorities delivered in multiple ways, etc.) Now How you limit the democracy is very important, some limits make things worse others make things better (and its not easy or obvious which is which), but democracy must be limited or you are basically dealing with a national lynch mob. (if it is too limited you end up with just an oligarchy or monarchy) Now on topic, the EU could probably use a little bit less limited democracy, the individual member states might need a bit more or less limited democracy depending. | ||
WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
Hahahahaha | ||
Sent.
Poland8967 Posts
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WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
On February 05 2016 04:53 Sent. wrote: US politics thread is more appropriate for Trump. I mean, him shittalking EU administration is nothing special. Everyone does it from LA to Vladivostok. I guess we could discuss how the relations between Europe and US would change if he got elected but I don't think something major would happen. I'm interested to hear more about Brussels from TLers from Belgium tho, because I've travel to Brussel a few years ago, but since then, everything I hear about it is bad, and the whole Molenbeek affair does not help at all (I know it's not in Brussel by the way). | ||
kwizach
3658 Posts
On February 05 2016 05:02 WhiteDog wrote: and the whole Molenbeek affair does not help at all (I know it's not in Brussel by the way). It is in Brussels. | ||
WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
I thought it was like suburb area ? | ||
kwizach
3658 Posts
It's been misleadingly portrayed in French media as an equivalent to French "banlieues" located outside cities, but it's not -- it's actually pretty close to the city center. | ||
RvB
Netherlands6077 Posts
On February 05 2016 04:39 WhiteDog wrote: By the way, we do not discuss Trump enough. So, what do you guys think about him saying Brussels is a hell hole ? Is it only half true ? Hahahahaha What is there to discuss about Trump? Idon't think I've heard him say anything of value yet. | ||
Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
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zatic
Zurich15241 Posts
On February 05 2016 06:02 Dangermousecatdog wrote: My impression of Brussels as a tourist. Small city. Nice place to walk, cars don't try to run you over. Graffiti everywhere. Beggers everywhere. Wandered into Molenbeek. Wtf Canal. Street party. Much kebaps. Tasty. No Jihadis seen. Pretty much this. Molenbeek seemed pretty tame, sorry Donald. Not enough bars for my taste though (Was there last year). | ||
Hryul
Austria2609 Posts
On February 04 2016 05:04 lord_nibbler wrote: Because I hear these claims a lot from you and others, I would like you to give me a concrete proof of them. Where does 'the left' and feminist in particular ignore cologne? There has not been a day in the last 4 weeks were there was not an article about cologne in the papers and online. I can not think of any recent event, that was as long and as much discussed in recent history. Almost everybody has commented on it. How can you claim that anybody is ignoring this topic? Also, the second claim seems very questionable as well. I in my life have never met a single person that believed that "everyone is equal". Not even the most hard-core communists have ever claimed that. But maybe I was just unlucky, so please give me at least one quote from some known 'lefty'. well there is for example the attempt to play down the whole story by comparing the events of cologne within a few hours and thousands of people with the rape number from oktoberfest, an event spanning two weeks and millions of visitors. http://blogs.faz.net/deus/2016/01/06/sexuelle-gewalt-in-koeln-mit-dem-oktoberfest-kleinreden-3075/ or SPON: Überall werden nun aus besorgten Bürgern edle Ritter, die "unsere" - also "ihre" - Frauen beschützen wollen. Die eigenen Frauen will der gute Deutsche immer noch selbst belästigen dürfen. translation: Everywhere 'concerned citizens' turn into white knights who want to protect 'our' - read 'their' - women. The good german wants to molest his women on his own. 'concerned citizens' btw is meant to be ironic derogative for the people joining Pegida and/or AfD. which in her mind is (nearly) Nazi. So she thinks everyone who is concerned about Cologne as on the far right. Like Alice Schwarzer who warned of this years ago. http://www.spiegel.de/kultur/gesellschaft/margarete-stokowski-ueber-sexualisierte-gewalt-a-1070905.html | ||
WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
On February 03 2016 17:29 Reivax wrote: In fresh statistics from the desolate wasteland of Sweden, we have a reduction in number of reported rapes and sexual harassment charges of -12% (total) in the year which we have received the most refugees in history. A caveat with these statistics is that they are A) preliminary and B) 2014 apparently had an outlier regarding the rapes. PDF for the Swedish-speaking: http://bra.se/webdav/files/statistik/pdf/Sammanfattning_anmalda_prel_helar_2015.pdf Other notable numbers: Crimes reported in total is up 4%. Crimes versus individuals are practically unchanged (battery is an outlier here, +2% increase total, with battery of children 15-17 being +19% and 0-14 +6%). The bulk of the increase is defacement of public areas and computer fraud. Thefts are slightly down overall (-2%). All numbers are raw numbers, comparing 2014 to 2015 and not weighted by population increase, which was +1,04%. Isn't sweden the country with the most rape of europe ? Wanted to read the document but it's not in a language I understand and it does not load properly. | ||
Velr
Switzerland10417 Posts
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