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On August 26 2016 05:24 Nyxisto wrote: Sure they were, I wouldn't exactly consider the German Empire or the Third Reich compatible with Europe either Even during the third reich, the germans were culturally "europeans". But are you saying Russia under Putin is similar to the third reich ?
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On August 26 2016 05:25 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2016 05:24 Nyxisto wrote: Sure they were, I wouldn't exactly consider the German Empire or the Third Reich compatible with Europe either Even during the third reich, the germans were culturally europeans. But are you saying Russia under Putin is similar to the third reich ?
That would be hyperbolic, but Russia sure is on its way to a form of authoritarianism that looks more like 19th century Europe than anything else, much like Erdogan's Turkey.
All the things that make European cooperation possible don't work anymore with countries that act like Turkey or Russia. It's also going to make them unstable in the mid and long term. Russia's economy won't continue to function if they don't stop the isolationism.
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I'm willing to say I'm ignorant on the subject, I don't see modern Russia this way.
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United Kingdom13774 Posts
Russia is definitely more authoritarian than average for European nations. The idea that it's getting worse, or that Putin is some sort of Hitler/Stalin/czar figure, is just opportune fearmongering.
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I don't think anyone made that comparison.
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On August 26 2016 05:40 LegalLord wrote: Russia is definitely more authoritarian than average for European nations. The idea that it's getting worse, or that Putin is some sort of Hitler/Stalin/czar figure, is just opportune fearmongering.
It's definitely getting worse though. Just take some indicator like the amount of state owned enterprises. I'm pretty sure Russia is approaching something like 70% or 80% of the economy again. This alone is pretty extreme. The Russian state has greatly expanded the grip it has on all kinds of institutions.
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On August 26 2016 04:35 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2016 04:30 Makro wrote: ukraine, like many countries has no choice but to choose the lesser of the two evils
but otherworld is right in a sense, are europeans ready to endorse the role of a superpower ? having to assume choices and having a say in the course of the world? or are they satisfied being a kind of second rate power ?
the particularity of europe is that it can become a true superpower whenever it wants And that superpower will speak german ? Russia has been an important piece of europe, next to Germany, France, the UK - think about it from a cultural standpoint and it's pretty clear. And Europe will always be that : a complex space structured around various alliances and opposition that change from time to time. Somehow, since the end of the second world war, we've taken more and more distances with Russia and now it's seen as a foreign force willing to invade a "us" that is not unified nor clearly defined (Turkey is in or out lolz ?). Yes, I feel like talking and negociating is a good way to get out of such conflicts with what is a cousin-state more than anything. RvB you are entirely right. The problem is that it has been 30 years that europe showed it was not able to move, that's why people want sovereignty now : because Europe as an institution does not have what it takes to make a decent enough compromise between the very diverse interests that made it. Russia, on the other hand, seems willing to find a common ground. Who cares about what it speaks, especially in this time and age? Belgium, though being a very young nation with three languages on its territory, managed to achieve more than most other European countries relatively to their size ; Switzerland has lived in peace and prosperity for centuries despite its diversity ; France was not a clearly defined nation speaking the same language before French kings decided to force a nation into it ; the Roman Empire reigned over an eclectic mix of cultures for centuries. There are dozens of ways of building a nation out of several cultures.
There's no need for linguistic unity for a nation to exist, even though that notion is very strange to the heavily centralized and authoritarian French way of seeing the world.
I also completely fail to see how Russia is part of our culture. Currently, the three pillars of Western European culture, if that's even a thing, are the Enlightenment principles of liberty, etc (and the Enlightenment philosophers were French, Germans, etc, not Russian) ; the German idea of social market economy ; and the heavy addition of American popular culture in European countries' popular cultures since the end of WWII. Where is Russia in all of this?
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United Kingdom13774 Posts
On August 26 2016 05:45 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2016 05:40 LegalLord wrote: Russia is definitely more authoritarian than average for European nations. The idea that it's getting worse, or that Putin is some sort of Hitler/Stalin/czar figure, is just opportune fearmongering. It's definitely getting worse though. Just take some indicator like the amount of state owned enterprises. I'm pretty sure Russia is approaching something like 70% or 80% of the economy again. This alone is pretty extreme. The Russian state has greatly expanded the grip it has on all kinds of institutions. Going to have to ask you to be a lot more specific about what you mean. As it has been defined so far your "more authoritarian" claim is pretty nebulous. The Russian government holds a lot of "strategic companies" under its control, and their relative value is pretty high right now if looking at nominal GDP values, but I'm not seeing what you claim to be true.
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On August 26 2016 05:20 Nyxisto wrote: It's just a bunch of historical romanticism. Russia is authoritarian, has no real independent legal authority, acts on European territory by use of force and essentially disregards most basic democratic rights. That's not compatible with European political values.
Russia being part of Europe is part of a bunch of historical romanticism... lel There is a lot of revisionnism here. Russia has been part culturaly (russian literature, architecture can not be understood as a non European stuff, basically, Tolstoï or Kryzanowski are not part of European literature? Moreover, they have been united by Christian values just like us and their writing comes from it), geographically and historically with Europe. You and Russians can deny it as much as you want but it is historical reality and only the political context makes you state this absolutely wrong assertion. Btw, you're European values stuff are laughable, you think that Europe has been culturally structured around Human rights? No it has not been, I am a deeply anti religious person, I think all religion has the seed of the most hardcore totalitarism but this is a point, the cultural unifying Europe has been christiannity.
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On August 26 2016 05:51 OtherWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2016 04:35 WhiteDog wrote:On August 26 2016 04:30 Makro wrote: ukraine, like many countries has no choice but to choose the lesser of the two evils
but otherworld is right in a sense, are europeans ready to endorse the role of a superpower ? having to assume choices and having a say in the course of the world? or are they satisfied being a kind of second rate power ?
the particularity of europe is that it can become a true superpower whenever it wants And that superpower will speak german ? Russia has been an important piece of europe, next to Germany, France, the UK - think about it from a cultural standpoint and it's pretty clear. And Europe will always be that : a complex space structured around various alliances and opposition that change from time to time. Somehow, since the end of the second world war, we've taken more and more distances with Russia and now it's seen as a foreign force willing to invade a "us" that is not unified nor clearly defined (Turkey is in or out lolz ?). Yes, I feel like talking and negociating is a good way to get out of such conflicts with what is a cousin-state more than anything. RvB you are entirely right. The problem is that it has been 30 years that europe showed it was not able to move, that's why people want sovereignty now : because Europe as an institution does not have what it takes to make a decent enough compromise between the very diverse interests that made it. Russia, on the other hand, seems willing to find a common ground. Who cares about what it speaks, especially in this time and age? Belgium, though being a very young nation with three languages on its territory, managed to achieve more than most other European countries relatively to their size ; Switzerland has lived in peace and prosperity for centuries despite its diversity ; France was not a clearly defined nation speaking the same language before French kings decided to force a nation into it ; the Roman Empire reigned over an eclectic mix of cultures for centuries. There are dozens of ways of building a nation out of several cultures. There's no need for linguistic unity for a nation to exist, even though that notion is very strange to the heavily centralized and authoritarian French way of seeing the world. I also completely fail to see how Russia is part of our culture. Currently, the three pillars of Western European culture, if that's even a thing, are the Enlightenment principles of liberty, etc (and the Enlightenment philosophers were French, Germans, etc, not Russian) ; the German idea of social market economy ; and the heavy addition of American popular culture in European countries' popular cultures since the end of WWII. Where is Russia in all of this? I disagree a whole lot with you on this. French kings unified the nation through brute force and generations of opression. You want the same for europe ?
Belgium is not an exemple, it basically exist because it is located between two european powers, France and Germany, much like Switzerland, and as such played the role of tampon while welcoming all the pariah who were fleeing those countries.
I don't know where you got those pillars of western european culture. There's no unified european culture, France is pretty far off from the UK and Germany in many aspects, the only thing we really have in common is shared history, litterature, philosophy and art and we have that in common with Russia.
On August 26 2016 05:57 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2016 05:45 Nyxisto wrote:On August 26 2016 05:40 LegalLord wrote: Russia is definitely more authoritarian than average for European nations. The idea that it's getting worse, or that Putin is some sort of Hitler/Stalin/czar figure, is just opportune fearmongering. It's definitely getting worse though. Just take some indicator like the amount of state owned enterprises. I'm pretty sure Russia is approaching something like 70% or 80% of the economy again. This alone is pretty extreme. The Russian state has greatly expanded the grip it has on all kinds of institutions. Going to have to ask you to be a lot more specific about what you mean. As it has been defined so far your "more authoritarian" claim is pretty nebulous. The Russian government holds a lot of "strategic companies" under its control, and their relative value is pretty high right now if looking at nominal GDP values, but I'm not seeing what you claim to be true. You seem to know quite a lot on Russia Legal, do you study international politics or is it for other reasons ?
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On August 26 2016 06:01 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2016 05:51 OtherWorld wrote:On August 26 2016 04:35 WhiteDog wrote:On August 26 2016 04:30 Makro wrote: ukraine, like many countries has no choice but to choose the lesser of the two evils
but otherworld is right in a sense, are europeans ready to endorse the role of a superpower ? having to assume choices and having a say in the course of the world? or are they satisfied being a kind of second rate power ?
the particularity of europe is that it can become a true superpower whenever it wants And that superpower will speak german ? Russia has been an important piece of europe, next to Germany, France, the UK - think about it from a cultural standpoint and it's pretty clear. And Europe will always be that : a complex space structured around various alliances and opposition that change from time to time. Somehow, since the end of the second world war, we've taken more and more distances with Russia and now it's seen as a foreign force willing to invade a "us" that is not unified nor clearly defined (Turkey is in or out lolz ?). Yes, I feel like talking and negociating is a good way to get out of such conflicts with what is a cousin-state more than anything. RvB you are entirely right. The problem is that it has been 30 years that europe showed it was not able to move, that's why people want sovereignty now : because Europe as an institution does not have what it takes to make a decent enough compromise between the very diverse interests that made it. Russia, on the other hand, seems willing to find a common ground. Who cares about what it speaks, especially in this time and age? Belgium, though being a very young nation with three languages on its territory, managed to achieve more than most other European countries relatively to their size ; Switzerland has lived in peace and prosperity for centuries despite its diversity ; France was not a clearly defined nation speaking the same language before French kings decided to force a nation into it ; the Roman Empire reigned over an eclectic mix of cultures for centuries. There are dozens of ways of building a nation out of several cultures. There's no need for linguistic unity for a nation to exist, even though that notion is very strange to the heavily centralized and authoritarian French way of seeing the world. I also completely fail to see how Russia is part of our culture. Currently, the three pillars of Western European culture, if that's even a thing, are the Enlightenment principles of liberty, etc (and the Enlightenment philosophers were French, Germans, etc, not Russian) ; the German idea of social market economy ; and the heavy addition of American popular culture in European countries' popular cultures since the end of WWII. Where is Russia in all of this? I disagree a whole lot with you on this. French kings unified the nation through brute force and generations of opression. You want the same for europe ? I don't know where you got those pillars of western european culture. There's no unified european culture, France is pretty far off from the UK and Germany in many aspects, the only thing we really have in common is shared history, litterature, philosophy and art and we have that in common with Russia.
Yes there are ones, we have a common legacy with the old and new testament plus ofc, the greek and roman culture, all this elements has culturally shaped all European cultures even russians'ones.
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United Kingdom13774 Posts
People ascribe far too much cultural solidarity to "Europe" as a whole.
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On August 26 2016 06:11 stilt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2016 06:01 WhiteDog wrote:On August 26 2016 05:51 OtherWorld wrote:On August 26 2016 04:35 WhiteDog wrote:On August 26 2016 04:30 Makro wrote: ukraine, like many countries has no choice but to choose the lesser of the two evils
but otherworld is right in a sense, are europeans ready to endorse the role of a superpower ? having to assume choices and having a say in the course of the world? or are they satisfied being a kind of second rate power ?
the particularity of europe is that it can become a true superpower whenever it wants And that superpower will speak german ? Russia has been an important piece of europe, next to Germany, France, the UK - think about it from a cultural standpoint and it's pretty clear. And Europe will always be that : a complex space structured around various alliances and opposition that change from time to time. Somehow, since the end of the second world war, we've taken more and more distances with Russia and now it's seen as a foreign force willing to invade a "us" that is not unified nor clearly defined (Turkey is in or out lolz ?). Yes, I feel like talking and negociating is a good way to get out of such conflicts with what is a cousin-state more than anything. RvB you are entirely right. The problem is that it has been 30 years that europe showed it was not able to move, that's why people want sovereignty now : because Europe as an institution does not have what it takes to make a decent enough compromise between the very diverse interests that made it. Russia, on the other hand, seems willing to find a common ground. Who cares about what it speaks, especially in this time and age? Belgium, though being a very young nation with three languages on its territory, managed to achieve more than most other European countries relatively to their size ; Switzerland has lived in peace and prosperity for centuries despite its diversity ; France was not a clearly defined nation speaking the same language before French kings decided to force a nation into it ; the Roman Empire reigned over an eclectic mix of cultures for centuries. There are dozens of ways of building a nation out of several cultures. There's no need for linguistic unity for a nation to exist, even though that notion is very strange to the heavily centralized and authoritarian French way of seeing the world. I also completely fail to see how Russia is part of our culture. Currently, the three pillars of Western European culture, if that's even a thing, are the Enlightenment principles of liberty, etc (and the Enlightenment philosophers were French, Germans, etc, not Russian) ; the German idea of social market economy ; and the heavy addition of American popular culture in European countries' popular cultures since the end of WWII. Where is Russia in all of this? I disagree a whole lot with you on this. French kings unified the nation through brute force and generations of opression. You want the same for europe ? I don't know where you got those pillars of western european culture. There's no unified european culture, France is pretty far off from the UK and Germany in many aspects, the only thing we really have in common is shared history, litterature, philosophy and art and we have that in common with Russia. Yes there are ones, we have a common legacy with the old and new testament plus ofc, the greek and roman culture, all this elements has culturally shaped all European cultures even russians'ones. Yeah I see where you come from but at the same time the influence this history had on all of us is very diverse. Russia and Greece are non conformist christians, France is very laïc, Italy very catholic, Germany very protestant, etc. Our form of government are also different.
On August 26 2016 06:13 LegalLord wrote: People ascribe far too much cultural solidarity to "Europe" as a whole. In the mind of europeans, the european culture is the enlightment without the revolution and without the anti church rhetoric, so it's basically the enlightment depleted of everything that made it such an historical force.
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On August 26 2016 06:14 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2016 06:11 stilt wrote:On August 26 2016 06:01 WhiteDog wrote:On August 26 2016 05:51 OtherWorld wrote:On August 26 2016 04:35 WhiteDog wrote:On August 26 2016 04:30 Makro wrote: ukraine, like many countries has no choice but to choose the lesser of the two evils
but otherworld is right in a sense, are europeans ready to endorse the role of a superpower ? having to assume choices and having a say in the course of the world? or are they satisfied being a kind of second rate power ?
the particularity of europe is that it can become a true superpower whenever it wants And that superpower will speak german ? Russia has been an important piece of europe, next to Germany, France, the UK - think about it from a cultural standpoint and it's pretty clear. And Europe will always be that : a complex space structured around various alliances and opposition that change from time to time. Somehow, since the end of the second world war, we've taken more and more distances with Russia and now it's seen as a foreign force willing to invade a "us" that is not unified nor clearly defined (Turkey is in or out lolz ?). Yes, I feel like talking and negociating is a good way to get out of such conflicts with what is a cousin-state more than anything. RvB you are entirely right. The problem is that it has been 30 years that europe showed it was not able to move, that's why people want sovereignty now : because Europe as an institution does not have what it takes to make a decent enough compromise between the very diverse interests that made it. Russia, on the other hand, seems willing to find a common ground. Who cares about what it speaks, especially in this time and age? Belgium, though being a very young nation with three languages on its territory, managed to achieve more than most other European countries relatively to their size ; Switzerland has lived in peace and prosperity for centuries despite its diversity ; France was not a clearly defined nation speaking the same language before French kings decided to force a nation into it ; the Roman Empire reigned over an eclectic mix of cultures for centuries. There are dozens of ways of building a nation out of several cultures. There's no need for linguistic unity for a nation to exist, even though that notion is very strange to the heavily centralized and authoritarian French way of seeing the world. I also completely fail to see how Russia is part of our culture. Currently, the three pillars of Western European culture, if that's even a thing, are the Enlightenment principles of liberty, etc (and the Enlightenment philosophers were French, Germans, etc, not Russian) ; the German idea of social market economy ; and the heavy addition of American popular culture in European countries' popular cultures since the end of WWII. Where is Russia in all of this? I disagree a whole lot with you on this. French kings unified the nation through brute force and generations of opression. You want the same for europe ? I don't know where you got those pillars of western european culture. There's no unified european culture, France is pretty far off from the UK and Germany in many aspects, the only thing we really have in common is shared history, litterature, philosophy and art and we have that in common with Russia. Yes there are ones, we have a common legacy with the old and new testament plus ofc, the greek and roman culture, all this elements has culturally shaped all European cultures even russians'ones. Yeah I see where you come from but at the same time the influence this history had on all of us is very diverse. Russia and Greece are non conformist christians, France is very laïc, Italy very catholic, Germany very protestant, etc. Our form of government are also different. Show nested quote +On August 26 2016 06:13 LegalLord wrote: People ascribe far too much cultural solidarity to "Europe" as a whole. In the mind of europeans, the european culture is the enlightment without the revolution and without the anti church rhetoric, so it's basically the enlightment depleted of everything that made it such an historical force.
Of course they are differents but it largely shares a same basis, during the Renaussance and even in the Middle Age, the intellectual elite was speaking in latin except ironically in Russia (from what I know, the fact that they were not really a state but a bunch of unorganized states dealing with the Mongol power makes this complicated but they were still some deep relationship between moscovites elites and the rest of Europe) but with Peter the Great (and even before), Russian elite has spoken the common language for the intellectual elite of the time: french. And, if you recall some texts of Erasmus, Descartes, Kant, Bergson, even Spinoza, Nieztsches and in fact, every great european philosophers whatever their nationality is, you will see that the greek philosophers, the Christian theology and judaism thought are always the major reference and they all identify European roots culture in those 3 thoughts. I can add that in most of the speech made by the french revolutionnaries, the evocation of the roman republic takes always a central part of their argues. So yes, Europe is a mosaique of cultures and nations (and I sincerely think that France with his revolutionnary legacy is one of the strangest country of this world) but they have common denominators at their origins and it is obviously not "enlightmen", "free speech" and stuff like this.
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On August 26 2016 05:58 stilt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2016 05:20 Nyxisto wrote: It's just a bunch of historical romanticism. Russia is authoritarian, has no real independent legal authority, acts on European territory by use of force and essentially disregards most basic democratic rights. That's not compatible with European political values. Russia being part of Europe is part of a bunch of historical romanticism... lel There is a lot of revisionnism here. Russia has been part culturaly (russian literature, architecture can not be understood as a non European stuff, basically, Tolstoï or Kryzanowski are not part of European literature? Moreover, they have been united by Christian values just like us and their writing comes from it), geographically and historically with Europe. You and Russians can deny it as much as you want but it is historical reality and only the political context makes you state this absolutely wrong assertion. Btw, you're European values stuff are laughable, you think that Europe has been culturally structured around Human rights? No it has not been, I am a deeply anti religious person, I think all religion has the seed of the most hardcore totalitarism but this is a point, the cultural unifying Europe has been christiannity.
Like, that's the exact stuff I'm talking about. Dostoevsky was a great writer but I care about Russians that still breathe, what they do and how they vote. It's actually kind of condescending to break other nations down to your favorite artists or scientists. We have no spiritual bond to great acient Russians that somehow makes annexing Crimea less wrong or whatever. This is something that's very typical in these discussions. Whenever some Western politician is pressed on European Russian relations the dwelling in history begins because there's not much positive to be said regarding the last twenty years.
On August 26 2016 05:57 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2016 05:45 Nyxisto wrote:On August 26 2016 05:40 LegalLord wrote: Russia is definitely more authoritarian than average for European nations. The idea that it's getting worse, or that Putin is some sort of Hitler/Stalin/czar figure, is just opportune fearmongering. It's definitely getting worse though. Just take some indicator like the amount of state owned enterprises. I'm pretty sure Russia is approaching something like 70% or 80% of the economy again. This alone is pretty extreme. The Russian state has greatly expanded the grip it has on all kinds of institutions. Going to have to ask you to be a lot more specific about what you mean. As it has been defined so far your "more authoritarian" claim is pretty nebulous. The Russian government holds a lot of "strategic companies" under its control, and their relative value is pretty high right now if looking at nominal GDP values, but I'm not seeing what you claim to be true.
Controlling large strategic sectors and failing to diversify towards service economies is pretty typical of most authoritarian states because it's pretty much the only way to generate a stable income without giving up a grip on core institutions. If they'd not do that they'd have to let more information in, foreign capital, foreign workers and so on and that's not the kind of thing that the Russian government likes at the moment.
There's also a lot of authoritarianism in other sectors. Putin has put a lot of the siloviki/intelligence faction in core administrative positions (who are notoriously paranoid, like all intelligence guys) and the number of dead or locked up journalists is pretty staggering. It wasn't that bad during his first term in office before he did the tandem thing with Medvedew.
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Nyx you mix everything up ... Just because France and Germany have deep historical ties does not mean that the first and the second world war were okay. We're not saying Russia is great and fun and everything, we're just saying we're stuck with it, so we need to find a common ground.
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The EU and Turkey are poised for a fresh round of diplomacy in an attempt to keep their migration pact working, despite the rancorous downward spiral in relations since Ankara’s crackdown on tens of thousands of people it says are supporters of the exiled cleric it blames for a failed military coup.
The two sides will reach a moment of truth in September, when the European commission is due to report on whether Turkey has done enough to gain visa-free travel to Europe’s borderless Schengen zone, a linchpin of the migration deal.
A delegation of EU officials is expected in Ankara in the coming weeks to assess Turkey’s progress, while a visit by the EU commissioner responsible for migration, Dimitris Avramopoulos, is also being discussed.
The diplomatic move comes amid an increase in migrants crossing the eastern Mediterranean to Europe. In August, 109 people a day on average have been arriving on Greek shores, compared to 62 in July, although still far below January’s tally of 2,000. The UN refugee agency warned that Europe could see a repeat of last year’s chaotic mass arrivals, unless EU governments did more to help asylum seekers in the Middle East as well as resettling more refugees.
“The feeling in Europe is that the problem has been solved,” UNHCR spokesman William Spindler said. “People have forgotten about the problem, because they do not see the immediacy of it.”
Around 50,000 people are stranded in Greece, many living in dire conditions in reception centres, not knowing when they will move on. Save the Children reported this week that Greek refugee camps were bursting at the seams: people are living in dirty and unsafe conditions, as camps lack sufficient drinking water, showers and toilets.
Under the pact with Ankara, Europe promised an initial €3bn aid for Syrian refugees in Turkey, in exchange for being able to send back irregular migrants who had arrived in Greece. The deal was sweetened by the promise of visa-free travel for Turks throughout continental Europe.
But even before the botched coup in Turkey, the deal had been hanging by a thread with Turkey’s president, Recep Tayyip Erdoğan, insisting he would not re-write Turkey’s counter-terrorism laws - a key condition of the visa deal.
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Apparently a gas explosion. Going to ballpark 1-8 people dead. Though the last terrorist explosion was called a gas explosion for an hour or two before it was found out to be terrorism but this one's probably more legit since it happened so late at night and not really close to a music festival like the last one.
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On August 26 2016 09:59 WhiteDog wrote: Nyx you mix everything up ... Just because France and Germany have deep historical ties does not mean that the first and the second world war were okay. We're not saying Russia is great and fun and everything, we're just saying we're stuck with it, so we need to find a common ground. I'm not quite sure what this post is supposed to imply. Are you saying that Germany started the world wars and therefore France needs to remain apprehensive?
As for Russia. In my mind it is perfectly rational for the baltic states to fear Russian annexation, in the same way it is perfectly rational for Iran to fear an american bomb campaign on invasion. Not saying that Russia (Or america for that matter) is evil or anything. But they have made it quite clear that they consider the baltic states within their sphere of influence, and for those of us who live there (Though Sweden probably comes last on any list if there is one) it is perfectly rational to seek protection in cooperation with the Americans or further EU integration (including defense).
Again, I'm not trying to make Russia out to be evil, but just like the annexation of the Crimea was perfectly rational (and most people living there were russian anyhow) so would the annexation of Gotland (swedish island) be perfectly strategically rational (and basically noone lives there anyway, moving them all would be easy). And with that in mind, is it so strange to be apprehensive of Russian millitary spending?
Obviously in the medium and long term, further cooperation, with more trade, more exchange etc will hopefully diffuse the situation to everyones benefit. But in the meantime being wary seems like a good choice.
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