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Nuland actually mentioned that the proportionate sum of $15 billion was spent since 1991 on Russia. Yet nobody is crying about that.
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Russian Federation40169 Posts
On March 06 2015 02:54 Cheerio wrote:Nuland actually mentioned that the proprotionate sum of $15 billion was spent since 1991 on Russia. Yet nobody is crying about that. And to make it funnier, it's actually an available information and not some sacred knowledge.
Now, back on topic: at this rate i am convinced that the actual info on the subject won't be provided at least until actual organizer/scapegoat is caught.
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This will be some sort of offtopic, but i feel like I need to touch upon it, so here it goes.
Different levels of how a person sees how the society works:
1) The most primitive level. I do what I want and it will make me happy. There are enough resources and opportunities to everyone. Conflicts should be avoided.
2) A person understands that there are opportunities for people to take advantage of others and walk away with it. So they would better be those people. The main priority becomes getting power, physically and socially. He is right who is stronger. They don't want to hurt others, but would not hesitate to do it if the goal requires it.
3) A person understands what 2nd stage is about. But on the other side they see that if anyone will think and act that way the whole society will degenerage into petty conflicts, violence, struggle for power to the point when noone is actually better off from that sort of thinking and acting: because of both the conflicts and violence that it brings, and because you need to spend too much resorces on that kind of stuff, which you could spent much more wisely. So it's actually beneficial to effectively downgrade to something that looks like 1st stage. The resources are still scarce though, but violently fighting for them is not the answer. What needs to be done though is to create some sort of system that would disencourage the behavior of the 2nd type.
The thing is, the same line of thinking applies to societies of societies as well, i.e. to the international scene. The 2nd stage looks damn beneficial if you don't see what stage 3 is about and instead see stage 1. You might even think you are smarter and superior to others, that you actually deserve that power and everything it brings. It's also very adventuristic, a welcome change from the grey days of stage 1 that you've probably experienced not so long ago. Thus the quest for power begins. This is what happened to Germany and Japan before WW2.
Developed democratic countries are at stage 3. A country can be stronger by consolidating resorces to fight others at the international scene, but will its people be happier because of that? No. Democracy is basically giving up much of your strength for peoples happiness. If you wonna do it you'd better make sure others do that as well. After WW2 it became pretty clear that you can't just leave others alone to their own business. The consequences can be devastating to them and to you as well. That's the line of thinking that justifies the quest for democracy and personal freedoms in other countries that developed countries often embark on. If there is free press and democratic process of elections, there is much less chance that the country will start warmongering, since it has such a devastating effect on the population. Also a healthy society is less likely to view other nations as inferior, or deserving some sort of violent actions towards them. But unfortunately the means some times defeat the purposes, and while trying to prevent warmongering one can actually start doing it themselves. Which defenders of the 2nd stage will use to protect their views.
Russia is clearly at stage 2 right now. They are not afraid to get violent, they are not afraid to have the relationships broken, and they are fine with spending huge resources on conflicts or preparations to them. Their reasoning at the internation stage often involves the idea that stage 2 thinking is some sort of cultural difference that must be respected. You can also see why NATO expansion is such a threat: if you plan on being strong and pushing others around there is no way you would want them to be protected, even if they agree not to expand military bases and missiles on their territory. Also note how "not viewing other nations as inferior" was overcome by propaganda by labling Ukrainians as "nazis, and hunta supporters".
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Guardian piece on Nemtsov (or is it?) by Kasparov (the loudest opposition member in exile):
When the Russian opposition leader Boris Nemtsov was assassinated in sight of the Kremlin last Friday night, it shocked even those of us who thought we had lost the ability to be shocked by events in Vladimir Putin’s Russia. When Russian forces moved into Ukraine and Putin annexed Crimea a year ago, it was also a terrible shock to a world that had grown too comfortable with the belief that the days of changing Europe’s borders by force were long over. But we must cease to be surprised by the violence and hatred emanating from Russia today if we are to combat it successfully.
When the shock subsides and the evidence is examined, it is clear no one should truly have been surprised by either horrific event. Boris, with whom I worked closely for many years, often talked of the violent ends faced by those who spoke out against Putin. We all knew what could happen to any of us at any time, and a few months after I last left Russia, in February 2013, I decided I would not return.
Police states are very good at keeping a monopoly on violence, and Putin’s Russia is no exception. When the victim is a former Russian deputy prime minister and a prominent critic of the regime, and his murder takes place in a wide open area right next to the Kremlin, the chance that it occurred without the involvement of Russia’s security services is vanishingly small. Boris was always under personal and electronic surveillance, but we are supposed to believe that his escort had the night off, and all nearby CCTV cameras happened to be down for repairs that day.
“But this is Mr Kasparov’s personal interpretation!” shouted one alarmed BBC presenter when I shared those observations in a live interview this week. “But the Russian government has categorically denied any involvement!” cried another. I accept that the things I say are my personal interpretation, but why is the BBC positioning itself as Putin’s defence attorney?
The man has a record; my insinuations are hardly far-fetched. Why cite the official statements of a dictatorship that lies and spreads propaganda at every turn without challenging them? It’s a good example of how the conventions of an open society are exploited by less scrupulous regimes. It represents the culture of engagement and appeasement that has come to replace the harder line of the cold war. But the time for unreciprocated fair play is over. ... The opposition movement that Boris and I believed in, and that Boris died for, should be openly supported, the way the west once championed the Soviet dissidents. Ronald Reagan told those of us behind the iron curtain that he knew it was our leaders, not us, who were his adversaries. We listened and it mattered, and it should matter again. More than 100,000 people rallied to mourn Boris in Moscow last Sunday, a number that gives the lie to Putin’s meaningless approval numbers. Tell these people, and the millions too afraid to march, that they have a choice.
Read the rest on the Guardian.
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
With all due respect, it wasn't 100.000. Official estimates are about 20.000. Opposition estimates are about 50.000 (and that pretty much tops it). Unofficial info from city government confirms 50.000.
50k is good enough, I don't understand why he has to lie on this, losing credibility due to stupid number mistakes is the opposite of what one would want if he wanted to convince anyone on something.
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Citing contrary estimates does not disprove him, nor would the inaccuracy of such a minute point discredit him. The underlying argument is far more compelling.
I'd also take any "official" estimates by Russian state media with a mountain of salt (forgive the idiom).
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United Kingdom13774 Posts
On March 07 2015 04:17 BluzMan wrote: With all due respect, it wasn't 100.000. Official estimates are about 20.000. Opposition estimates are about 50.000 (and that pretty much tops it). Unofficial info from city government confirms 50.000.
50k is good enough, I don't understand why he has to lie on this, losing credibility due to stupid number mistakes is the opposite of what one would want if he wanted to convince anyone on something. Not sure if he really had any credibility in the first place. Mostly he and Khodorkovsky are just token sources of anti-Putin sentiment for Western media to latch onto.
Great chess player, not much of a politician.
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On March 07 2015 04:17 BluzMan wrote: With all due respect, it wasn't 100.000. Official estimates are about 20.000. Opposition estimates are about 50.000 (and that pretty much tops it). Unofficial info from city government confirms 50.000.
50k is good enough, I don't understand why he has to lie on this, losing credibility due to stupid number mistakes is the opposite of what one would want if he wanted to convince anyone on something.
I also found it weird. Although I also see the point that the actual number doesn't matter as long as he gets the ballpark right.
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
On March 07 2015 04:47 always_winter wrote: Citing contrary estimates does not disprove him, nor would the inaccuracy of such a minute point discredit him. The underlying argument is far more compelling.
I'd also take any "official" estimates by Russian state media with a mountain of salt (forgive the idiom).
They don't disprove him as a whole, but the numbers he's citing are taken out of nowhere, no one ever estimated it to be that big, neither domestic affairs ministry (officials), nor the "white counter" (volunteer opposition organisation, counting more is within their interests). It honestly doesn't look like an accidental mistake, much more like intentional exaggeration. I'm very curious why, being crystal honest is one of the opposition virtues, widespread lies is kind of the main thing they are fighting against.
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It does seem unlikely this was not goverment sanctioned. A man that was under surveillance killed close to the Kremlin with nobody seeing anything. Possible but not very likely.
If the political elite in Russia want to plunder the country that's one thing but I highly dislike that they play chicken with Europe over sovereign nations to drum up nationalistic support.
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Don't get your hopes up, though. This is roughly standard procedure, something akin to `round up the usual suspects'.
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Russian media has already been full of speculations that it was done by Chechens hired by Ukrainian Intelligence ordered from USA to destabilize Russia. Chechens, Ukrainians, Americans conspiring against Russians, only Jews are missing from the picture. On the second thought. In his letter to Nemtsov's mother Putin reffered to her by her maiden surname Eidman (Эйдман), while she has been Nemtsova for 63 years now for anyone besides Putin.
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Although it's a conspiracy, how likely is it that Russian government paid/bribed some random people (or criminals) to claim responsibility for Nemtsov? Before you say bullshit, what if a criminal is sentenced to 10 years but is offered less years if he/she does that favour?
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On March 07 2015 21:08 Cheerio wrote:Russian media has already been full of speculations that it was done by Chechens hired by Ukrainian Intelligence ordered from USA to destabilize Russia. Chechens, Ukrainians, Americans conspiring against Russians, only Jews are missing from the picture. On the second thought. In his letter to Nemtsov's mother Putin reffered to her by her maiden surname Eidman (Эйдман), while she has been Nemtsova for 63 years now for anyone besides Putin. Shocker, Russian media blames everyone except Russia for something. American media is awful in its own ways, but at least its never afraid to call out the US or the West when they have (or may have and claiming they have will score political points) done something.
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United Kingdom13774 Posts
On March 08 2015 03:32 Jaaaaasper wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2015 21:08 Cheerio wrote:Russian media has already been full of speculations that it was done by Chechens hired by Ukrainian Intelligence ordered from USA to destabilize Russia. Chechens, Ukrainians, Americans conspiring against Russians, only Jews are missing from the picture. On the second thought. In his letter to Nemtsov's mother Putin reffered to her by her maiden surname Eidman (Эйдман), while she has been Nemtsova for 63 years now for anyone besides Putin. Shocker, Russian media blames everyone except Russia for something. American media is awful in its own ways, but at least its never afraid to call out the US or the West when they have (or may have and claiming they have will score political points) done something. Do you know this for a fact (as in: do you read Russian news) or are you just saying this because you want it to be true?
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On March 08 2015 04:07 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2015 03:32 Jaaaaasper wrote:On March 07 2015 21:08 Cheerio wrote:Russian media has already been full of speculations that it was done by Chechens hired by Ukrainian Intelligence ordered from USA to destabilize Russia. Chechens, Ukrainians, Americans conspiring against Russians, only Jews are missing from the picture. On the second thought. In his letter to Nemtsov's mother Putin reffered to her by her maiden surname Eidman (Эйдман), while she has been Nemtsova for 63 years now for anyone besides Putin. Shocker, Russian media blames everyone except Russia for something. American media is awful in its own ways, but at least its never afraid to call out the US or the West when they have (or may have and claiming they have will score political points) done something. Do you know this for a fact (as in: do you read Russian news) or are you just saying this because you want it to be true? Well did you read what I just quoted when I said that?
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As far as I can tell, the Kommersant reports that some policemen (or security service?) witnessed the murder and gave a description of the suspects. Anyone with better Russian want to expand on this?
KOMMERSANT LINK
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Garry Kasparov is an interesting person to follow about this topic. He is the former world chess champion, turned russian political/democracy activist. He's been living abroad out of concern that this would have happened to him too :p
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United Kingdom13774 Posts
On March 08 2015 04:08 Jaaaaasper wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2015 04:07 LegalLord wrote:On March 08 2015 03:32 Jaaaaasper wrote:On March 07 2015 21:08 Cheerio wrote:Russian media has already been full of speculations that it was done by Chechens hired by Ukrainian Intelligence ordered from USA to destabilize Russia. Chechens, Ukrainians, Americans conspiring against Russians, only Jews are missing from the picture. On the second thought. In his letter to Nemtsov's mother Putin reffered to her by her maiden surname Eidman (Эйдман), while she has been Nemtsova for 63 years now for anyone besides Putin. Shocker, Russian media blames everyone except Russia for something. American media is awful in its own ways, but at least its never afraid to call out the US or the West when they have (or may have and claiming they have will score political points) done something. Do you know this for a fact (as in: do you read Russian news) or are you just saying this because you want it to be true? Well did you read what I just quoted when I said that? Yes. But do you have any actual support for your viewpoint? Do you read Russian news enough to make the kind of assertion you made?
On March 08 2015 04:19 Ghanburighan wrote:As far as I can tell, the Kommersant reports that some policemen (or security service?) witnessed the murder and gave a description of the suspects. Anyone with better Russian want to expand on this? KOMMERSANT LINK Two suspects are in FSB custody. The suspects were found by tracing the vehicles involved a few days back until they found a clear picture of the drivers. They identified said drivers and that is the suspects we currently have.
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