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On July 03 2015 02:11 xM(Z wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2015 22:20 Crushinator wrote:On July 02 2015 21:57 xM(Z wrote: you are mixing things. a decision is theoretical in nature while an action is practical. i can make the decision to never exist forever right now and nothing happens. i keep existing(doh) because there is no follow up to that decision - the action to end said existence.
in the end it boils down to the balance of pain? caused by depression vs fear/pain of a suicide. if, when compared, the suicide is the lesser evil then you'll commit suicide. if the depression is the lesser evil, then you don't deserve to die. not yet at least. Someone that is in unbearable anguish without hope of significant improvement should not have worry about whether or not the attempt is going to be succesful, shouldn't have to keep their decision a secret in fear of being stopped. Shouldn't have to worry what their friends and family will think or what the person who finds them will go through. A group of doctors recognizing that the person is indeed suffering without hope gives validity to the decision, shows to everyone that the decision was well considered, that nobody needs to wonder if they could have done more for that person. Allows those close to the person to say goodbye with some peace of mind. There are actual arguments against euthanasia, a group of doctors could be wrong, for example. Can you really know that there is no hope for improvement? Is being dead really better than suffering? But your absurd ideas are not amongst them. that part is an assumption. you can not quantify/measure the degree of pain a mind is in; a brain, sure, but not that of a mind. so you have nothing, your doctors have nothing but the subjective opinions of said mind. for me that's to little to go on, to kill someone who is physically healthy.
So your opinion that we should keep someone alive that wants to die trumps that person's own experiences? Those same experiences that you just said you cannot possibly quantify or otherwise understand?
Suicidal thoughts are a symptom of major depression disorders. People suffering through these episodes are quite literally insane and do not make rational decisions. To let them have 'their will' or even assist them is simply unethical.
It's pretty poor arguing to say that, just because someone wants to kill themselves, they are, by definition, mentally unstable and not able to make decisions for themselves.
You can't invalidate someone's point by simply saying that anyone who holds that point is mentally unstable. You need some actual evidence that shows that all individuals that want to end their lives are mentally incapable of making informed, independent decisions.
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People who suffer from depression are mentally unstable. That's the nature of any major psychological disorder. This isn't about a terminally ill cancer patient who will definitely die and makes the rational decision to end his life over a few weeks of pain.
People suffering from depression want to die because their disease makes them feel like they want to die. If their symptoms are under control they will usually tell you that they're happy to live.
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On July 02 2015 11:55 Aveng3r wrote: I'm all for it. Not that I want people to die, I just can't stand the idea of governments telling people what they can and can't do. If she doesn't want to live then let her make her own choices and live and die by them. the question is about big gubirment spending billions of tax payers dollars to build a sugar coated escalator down into hell for people so lazy they would rather die than get a job. no! they should foot the bill themselves.
they might have managed to hide from a job here on gods green earth, but there sure as shit ain't no thieving socialist welfare state teet to suckle down there, and satan, the original creditor, will mercilessly collect their debts without interference from the communist perversions of big gubirment.
in light of this new method of payment they might opt for ye ole cliff-toss rather than an expensive chemical concoction, much to the chagrin of the big gubirment officials who populate the producing company's list of shareholders. the roi on altitude, gravity, and smashing into the ground is very low.
this post is relevant on the topic of capital punisment as well.
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Its unfortunate that there are so many therapeutic techniques available which have not been given over to Laura's attention as possible routes out of her depression loops.
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Can't say I am for this. Same argument as many others, she shouldn't be determined to be rational and so she shouldn't be able to make a decision such as this.
Honestly though, real talk, if you want to kill yourself you don't *really* need approval from the state. Anyone knows this. So, she is putting on a show for some reason.
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If you really wanted to die just put your head into the meat grinder like my granddad did.
User was warned for this post
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On July 03 2015 05:20 travis wrote: Can't say I am for this. Same argument as many others, she shouldn't be determined to be rational and so she shouldn't be able to make a decision such as this.
Honestly though, real talk, if you want to kill yourself you don't *really* need approval from the state. Anyone knows this. So, she is putting on a show for some reason.
I imagine a reason a lot of people have difficulty committing suicide is because they "lack the constitution". Like they want to die, but they don't want to deal with pain or panic prior to death, they don't want to disfigure their bodies or force it upon someone else to find their disfigured corpse, or they don't want to end up surviving in a state of physical or mental disability. Euthanasia in this situation seems to be good option for them because it is a peaceful, pain-free, and guaranteed way of dying which is also respectful to other people. If you're choosing to die, you might as well die in the way you want to . I think it's something worth fighting for
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On July 03 2015 05:11 METATERREN wrote: Its unfortunate that there are so many therapeutic techniques available which have not been given over to Laura's attention as possible routes out of her depression loops.
I don't know how I feel about being allowed to commit suicide when you have depression, but it seems a little odd that you would just assume that, in the 3 years she's been institutionalized (plus all the time prior to that), that she hadn't used a plethora of treatments for her depressive disorder and that, more importantly, the committee that OK's these suicides didn't think of this either.
Can't say I am for this. Same argument as many others, she shouldn't be determined to be rational and so she shouldn't be able to make a decision such as this.
Honestly though, real talk, if you want to kill yourself you don't *really* need approval from the state. Anyone knows this. So, she is putting on a show for some reason.
The idea that "anyone that REALLY wanted to die would just off themselves at home" is pretty shallow. First off, "home-made" suicide attempts frequently fail; people survive when they slit their own wrists, shoot themselves, try to O.D., etc., and part of this is due to the intervention of others around you. Physician-assisted suicide is a much more concrete and assured way of getting the job done. Second, committing suicide on your own is illegal, and therefore, if you are caught, you are then held by a psychiatric hold, which makes the whole process more difficult for everyone. Third, committing suicide at home is generally much more difficult, messy, and traumatizing, both for the person trying to do it and anyone that may find them or witness the act.
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I feel I'll probably have to repeat thisa couple of times still: the patient makes this decision together with one or more psychiatrists, doctors and other specialists, and probably relatives as well. It is a process that actually takes a couple of months.
The link below provides an (unofficial) translation of the legal text concerning euthanasia for non-mental illnesses, for those who are interested: http://www.ethical-perspectives.be/viewpic.php?TABLE=EP&ID=59
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On July 03 2015 05:00 nunez wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2015 11:55 Aveng3r wrote: I'm all for it. Not that I want people to die, I just can't stand the idea of governments telling people what they can and can't do. If she doesn't want to live then let her make her own choices and live and die by them. the question is about big gubirment spending billions of tax payers dollars to build a sugar coated escalator down into hell for people so lazy they would rather die than get a job. no! they should foot the bill themselves. they might have managed to hide from a job here on gods green earth, but there sure as shit ain't no thieving socialist welfare state teet to suckle down there, and satan, the original creditor, will mercilessly collect their debts without interference from the communist perversions of big gubirment. in light of this new method of payment they might opt for ye ole cliff-toss rather than an expensive chemical concoction, much to the chagrin of the big gubirment officials who populate the producing company's list of shareholders. the roi on altitude, gravity, and smashing into the ground is very low. this post is relevant on the topic of capital punisment as well.
Euthanasia is probably considered by the law to be a peaceful and respectful way of dying, so throwing someone off a cliff or shooting them in the back of the head, while cheaper, might not hold by the definition. Which I think is fair. Even if I disagreed with euthanasia as a concept I'd rather it be done in a respectful way, even if it is at greater cost to the government.
In any case euthanasia might end up saving the government money in situations like these, where the individual is looking to be institutionalized for a very long time. Euthanasia would probably be less appealing to this individual if she knew she was just gonna end up being thrown off a cliff. To do the procedure in the more respectful way could be considered a win for both parties
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On July 03 2015 05:36 ViZe wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2015 05:20 travis wrote: Can't say I am for this. Same argument as many others, she shouldn't be determined to be rational and so she shouldn't be able to make a decision such as this.
Honestly though, real talk, if you want to kill yourself you don't *really* need approval from the state. Anyone knows this. So, she is putting on a show for some reason. I imagine a reason a lot of people have difficulty committing suicide is because they "lack the constitution". Like they want to die, but they don't want to deal with pain or panic prior to death, they don't want to disfigure their bodies or force it upon someone else to find their disfigured corpse, or they don't want to end up surviving in a state of physical or mental disability. Euthanasia in this situation seems to be good option for them because it is a peaceful, pain-free, and guaranteed way of dying which is also respectful to other people. If you're choosing to die, you might as well die in the way you want to . I think it's something worth fighting for
Also she is in a psychiatric institution so I imagine they would try to stop her.
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On July 02 2015 18:29 Amarok wrote: Why do people keep referring to her as a "sane person" who just happens to want to die? She's clearly severely mentally unbalanced. Would we give the same right to death to someone with dementia? Schizophrenia?
I'm not against euthanasia or even against it in this case but referring to this person as sane seems pretty crazy.
I take it you've never seen or been close to someone with Dementia before. Its fucking AWFUL, they're not actually living. It's certainly the worst way to die I've ever seen. Once you're diagnosed you probably can't fully grasp the fact that you have it you'll rapidly mentally and physically decline day by day. So you'll probably be too far gone to make the decision for assisted suicide legally. As someone who has watched 2 grandparents die with it and has another family member who is a complete invalid at 55 because of it I see absolutely no reason I shouldn't be able to say I choose to die. It sure as hell looks to run in the family. I've witnessed with my own eyes how fucking devastating it is. Being of sound mind now and understanding its a very real possibility, should I be diagnosed I'd happily choose Euthanasia.
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On July 03 2015 06:06 OuchyDathurts wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2015 18:29 Amarok wrote: Why do people keep referring to her as a "sane person" who just happens to want to die? She's clearly severely mentally unbalanced. Would we give the same right to death to someone with dementia? Schizophrenia?
I'm not against euthanasia or even against it in this case but referring to this person as sane seems pretty crazy. I take it you've never seen or been close to someone with Dementia before. Its fucking AWFUL, they're not actually living. It's certainly the worst way to die I've ever seen. Once you're diagnosed you probably can't fully grasp the fact that you have it you'll rapidly mentally and physically decline day by day. So you'll probably be too far gone to make the decision for assisted suicide legally. As someone who has watched 2 grandparents die with it and has another family member who is a complete invalid at 55 because of it I see absolutely no reason I shouldn't be able to say I choose to die. It sure as hell looks to run in the family. I've witnessed with my own eyes how fucking devastating it is. Being of sound mind now and understanding its a very real possibility, should I be diagnosed I'd happily choose Euthanasia.
As someone who's also known multiple individuals with dementia and schizophrenia, comparing depression to dementia or schizophrenia is pretty insulting. Mental illnesses in general are pretty horrible to live with, but schizophrenia and dementia are probably two of the worst diseases a human being could have. The mental capacity of someone with depression is completely different from someone with either of the other two. I think some people posting here have a pretty uninformed view of what depression actually is.
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There seem to be some misconceptions about living with a major depression, or mental illness in general. As a person with bipolar II (my depressive phases are diagnosed major). I will try and give my input as a person with the personal experience of suffering from recurring major depressions.
On July 02 2015 20:34 xM(Z wrote: also, i don't agree with it being made painless(in this case mostly). suicide should hurt, it's supposed to hurt. pain serves as deterrence for future wannabees. jumping in front of a train hurts(even when watching it censored on tv), hanging/drowning is pretty fucked up, shooting can backfire and so on. the fear factor should always be there. being sent to Oz while having the live drained out of you is objectively wrong. You have no idea what you're talking about, and are quite simply offensive to everyone who have or do live with a depression. When you're in a major depression, life hurts more than death - which is why suicide is seen as a way out.
"future wannabees" are going through more pain just by living with a depression than you can possible imagine.
On July 02 2015 19:29 xM(Z wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2015 18:05 Peeano wrote:On July 02 2015 02:47 xM(Z wrote:i could maybe agree with this is she'd be an organ donor, but barely. why does she fails at suicide anyway?. + Show Spoiler +'cause she doesn't really want to die Not sure if troll or not. It makes sense to me that you're Romanian. why don't you translate that, porfa ... it's a chicken shit way to die when you're physically whole. go fight IS or something; and there, there's always the option of putting one through your brain if it gets to much. 2 birds with one stone. in this day and age people do not own themselves. there is energy spent in raising them so they owe a payback. organ donor is a good place to start if you've done nothing 'till that point. Again. You have no idea what you're talking about. When you're in a state of depression, you cannot "go fight IS or something", something as menial as brushing your teeth is a challenge. Would you ask a guy with broken legs to "go run a marathon or something"? Depression is so far from just being sad (or whatever your idea of depression is). Your ignorant posts are frankly rude to people with a clinical depression, and I would advice you to actually educate youself on this matter. There is a lot of books written by people who live with a chronic depression and their struggles. A depression is appearently so far from what you perceive it to be.
I would advice everyone who haven't had firsthand experience of the struggles a person with a depression go through to read the books written by people who live with a chronic depression about their lives. It is an eye opener, and help breaking the stigmas we hear from society nearly everyday - "why dont you just pull youself together?".
On July 02 2015 22:24 nojok wrote: If people are willing to suicide and no physical disabilities prevent them to do so, they usually succeed. It's a matter of will. Those really willing to suicide succeed rather easily, there are a bazillion easy way to do it. This is a common misconception, I've seen multiple times in the thread (I'm not trying to single you out). The rate of failure for suicide is extremely high, way higher than the "succes" rate, especially among women. There's a plethora of more ways for a suicide to go "wrong" than there is for it to "succed".
Someone mentioned people manage to commit suicide in a "super safe" room in a psychiatric ward, this is close to impossible. If you're admited to a ward it's because you are in a psychotic depression in which case you're supervised around the clock. If you manage to muster the energy just to grab a smoke you're accompained by a nurse for example.
On July 02 2015 18:33 GreenHorizons wrote: Someone eluded to it before but I would personally want at least some eastern medicine remedies attempted. Western medicine is pretty damn cool, but we miss a LOT of stuff.
Accupunture (NADA for instance) is starting be a custom offer for patients in psychiatric care. It actually works, you get so drowsy and relaxed afterwards; it varies a lot from person to person how you respond. Hope we'll start to see more options in regards to eastern remedies.
On July 03 2015 00:27 BronzeKnee wrote: But she isn't dying. So it shouldn't be used. Treatment resistant doesn't mean treatment proof. This so very much.
To be honest the idea of calling it a treatment-resistant depression after just 3 years of (intensive?) treament is borderline amateurish. In just 3 years there's no possible way to even try the various medicational options, just trying to hit the right serum-value of a single medical drug can easily take over half a year - and there's plenty of alternatives to try. Hell, after ten years we are still tweaking on my lamotrigine and quetiapine dosis.
On July 02 2015 17:20 Crushinator wrote: I think some psychological conditions can be so severe that a person can have a genuine and reasoable deathwish, and euthanasia then seems like the humane option. Requests of this nature have already been granted dozens of times in the Netherlands, and rightly so. I disagree. At least in regards to major depression, which is the case for Laura, in a major depression you're in no state of mind to value your own life and in a psychotic depression your lack of judgement is even more pronounced.
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I cant really add more to the thread other than finding it horrible by the doctors to already consider it impossible to treat her condition after such a short time and it's straight up stupid to be taking away something that precious which we in that state of mind have no possible idea of how to value - our life.
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She hasn't been in treatment for only 3 years. She has suffered from depression with suicidal thoughts from early childhood. She has been institutionalized for 3 years. In institutions treatment isn't necessarily more intensive, its where we put people like her so she can't kill herself.
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On July 03 2015 06:55 Crushinator wrote: She hasn't been in treatment for only 3 years. She has suffered from depression with suicidal thoughts from early childhood. She has been institutionalized for 3 years. In institutions treatment isn't necessarily more intensive, its where we put people like her so she can't kill herself. Ah. Thanks for clarifying. It doesn't change my opinion tho, she's far too young to "give up" on.
Treatment really isn't more intensive in Netherland's institutions? We're seen more often by psychiatrists and much more attention are brought upon our medications while hospitalized in Denmark.
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I feel like I need to address quality of life issue again. How much longer are you willing to fight for yourself when you are constantly monitored, taking pills to alter your brain chemistry, feel like you're being altered against your natural state of mind? For some people this becomes their normal brain chemistry and even when they might become "cured" at one point in their lives, the chance of plunging back into the abbyss always stays relevant. I feel that if you don't have the power to even keep trying to make yourself better through external help because it constrains not only yourself but the other people invested in you (yes, depressed people still account for people other than themselves, I'd dare to say sometimes even more), you have the absolute right to ask for euthanasia.
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TLADT24917 Posts
On July 03 2015 06:47 Jek wrote:There seem to be some misconceptions about living with a major depression, or mental illness in general. As a person with bipolar II (my depressive phases are diagnosed major). I will try and give my input as a person with the personal experience of suffering from recurring major depressions. Show nested quote +On July 02 2015 20:34 xM(Z wrote: also, i don't agree with it being made painless(in this case mostly). suicide should hurt, it's supposed to hurt. pain serves as deterrence for future wannabees. jumping in front of a train hurts(even when watching it censored on tv), hanging/drowning is pretty fucked up, shooting can backfire and so on. the fear factor should always be there. being sent to Oz while having the live drained out of you is objectively wrong. You have no idea what you're talking about, and are quite simply offensive to everyone who have or do live with a depression. When you're in a major depression, life hurts more than death - which is why suicide is seen as a way out. "future wannabees" are going through more pain just by living with a depression than you can possible imagine. Show nested quote +On July 02 2015 19:29 xM(Z wrote:On July 02 2015 18:05 Peeano wrote:On July 02 2015 02:47 xM(Z wrote:i could maybe agree with this is she'd be an organ donor, but barely. why does she fails at suicide anyway?. + Show Spoiler +'cause she doesn't really want to die Not sure if troll or not. It makes sense to me that you're Romanian. why don't you translate that, porfa ... it's a chicken shit way to die when you're physically whole. go fight IS or something; and there, there's always the option of putting one through your brain if it gets to much. 2 birds with one stone. in this day and age people do not own themselves. there is energy spent in raising them so they owe a payback. organ donor is a good place to start if you've done nothing 'till that point. Again. You have no idea what you're talking about. When you're in a state of depression, you cannot "go fight IS or something", something as menial as brushing your teeth is a challenge. Would you ask a guy with broken legs to "go run a marathon or something"? Depression is so far from just being sad (or whatever your idea of depression is). Your ignorant posts are frankly rude to people with a clinical depression, and I would advice you to actually educate youself on this matter. There is a lot of books written by people who live with a chronic depression and their struggles. A depression is appearently so far from what you perceive it to be. I would advice everyone who haven't had firsthand experience of the struggles a person with a depression go through to read the books written by people who live with a chronic depression about their lives. It is an eye opener, and help breaking the stigmas we hear from society nearly everyday - "why dont you just pull youself together?". Show nested quote +On July 02 2015 22:24 nojok wrote: If people are willing to suicide and no physical disabilities prevent them to do so, they usually succeed. It's a matter of will. Those really willing to suicide succeed rather easily, there are a bazillion easy way to do it. This is a common misconception, I've seen multiple times in the thread (I'm not trying to single you out). The rate of failure for suicide is extremely high, way higher than the "succes" rate, especially among women. There's a plethora of more ways for a suicide to go "wrong" than there is for it to "succed". Someone mentioned people manage to commit suicide in a "super safe" room in a psychiatric ward, this is close to impossible. If you're admited to a ward it's because you are in a psychotic depression in which case you're supervised around the clock. If you manage to muster the energy just to grab a smoke you're accompained by a nurse for example. Show nested quote +On July 02 2015 18:33 GreenHorizons wrote: Someone eluded to it before but I would personally want at least some eastern medicine remedies attempted. Western medicine is pretty damn cool, but we miss a LOT of stuff.
Accupunture (NADA for instance) is starting be a custom offer for patients in psychiatric care. It actually works, you get so drowsy and relaxed afterwards; it varies a lot from person to person how you respond. Hope we'll start to see more options in regards to eastern remedies. Show nested quote +On July 03 2015 00:27 BronzeKnee wrote: But she isn't dying. So it shouldn't be used. Treatment resistant doesn't mean treatment proof. This so very much. To be honest the idea of calling it a treatment-resistant depression after just 3 years of (intensive?) treament is borderline amateurish. In just 3 years there's no possible way to even try the various medicational options, just trying to hit the right serum-value of a single medical drug can easily take over half a year - and there's plenty of alternatives to try. Hell, after ten years we are still tweaking on my lamotrigine and quetiapine dosis. Show nested quote +On July 02 2015 17:20 Crushinator wrote: I think some psychological conditions can be so severe that a person can have a genuine and reasoable deathwish, and euthanasia then seems like the humane option. Requests of this nature have already been granted dozens of times in the Netherlands, and rightly so. I disagree. At least in regards to major depression, which is the case for Laura, in a major depression you're in no state of mind to value your own life and in a psychotic depression your lack of judgement is even more pronounced. ----- I cant really add more to the thread other than finding it horrible by the doctors to already consider it impossible to treat her condition after such a short time and it's straight up stupid to be taking away something that precious which we in that state of mind have no possible idea of how to value - our life. I agree with your post for the most part but to clarify the medication and time aspect. To be fair, while there a lot of options for depression, with certain classes of medications such as SSRIs (selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors) like citalopram for example, usually you see maximum results in 6-8 weeks (you see energy increases, mood changes and such happening in 3 and 4-6 weeks respectively) then can titrate up as needed and if that doesn't work, try another class of medication etc...
I guess what I want to say is that while 3 years sound so little, I can see how they could've tried a lot of different medications based on the timeline I previously mentioned Also, the two medications you mentioned are mostly used in bipolar or schizophrenia (quetiapine) so they are different and the experience can't be compared directly.
edit: depression is also pretty terrible so it's always saddening to see people (not necessarily on here) reply with 'get over it' or 'just get yourself to do it' kind of attitude instead of trying to understand how it works.
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I actually don't know. But considering she spent most of her life depressed, I would assume she has pursued plenty of treatment options. Imo there is no reason to assume that those who considered her request were negligent on this front.
Seeing as you are familiar with severe depression: Can you honestly say that someone who has spent such a long time in such a state and has thus far not had benefits from treatment, is being irrational in wanting to end their life? How long does she need to be this way before you are satisfied, if ever?
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On July 03 2015 07:45 Crushinator wrote: I actually don't know. But considering she spent most of her life depressed, I would assume she has pursued plenty of treatment options. Imo there is no reason to assume that those who considered her request were negligent on this front.
Seeing as you are familiar with severe depression: Can you honestly say that someone who has spent such a long time in such a state and has thus far not had benefits from treatment, is being irrational in wanting to end their life? How long does she need to be this way before you are satisfied, if ever?
I just don't see how if one (physically able person) really wants to kill themselves how they wouldn't be able to do it without putting it on other people.
I feel like if you can't do it yourself then you really just don't want it enough. Some part of you is still desperately hanging onto life, so people shouldn't just outsource it because they can't handle it.
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