Not trying to make this thread about Trump or USA right vs left politics at all. I was just curious about a few things. Specifically those familiar with, or who live in Stockholm/Sweden. I want some clarity 'straight from the horse's mouth' as we say in America sometimes.
Before this whole debacle in the news about Trump saying there was a terror attack in Sweden. I saw a number of things pointing out issues with their policies on immigration, specifically the muslims from the middle east and Syria. Among other issues.
Ami Horowitz (an American Jewish video journalist, who makes his rounds all over TV, ppodcasts , and news articles, if that matters), tells a story about the time he went to Stockholm to document and get information about the reports in Sweden. (this is not the only source of information I have seen about it either, just the one I am referencing here for a focus on facts and misinformation)
He talks about so called 'no-go zones' where, straight out of the movie Sin City, cops and paramedics will not enter these parts of the city because it is simply too dangerous. Even if they are chasing a suspect.
These parts of the city are where some of the 150k+(?) immigrants have congregated and formed gangs and ghettos. These are also reported to be previously nice areas and living arrangements. They logic being there is simply not enough infrastructure to support them or provide jobs. So naturally as humans are good at adapting to circumstances and apply survival of the fittest in bad situations this turns into violence and lawlessness.
Anyway, Ami says he had a Swedish film crew who backed out of their arrangements and refused to go into the zone. So he went in anyway with a skeleton crew or by himself iirc.
He said that some thugs approached him and told him to leave or whatever and jumped him. They were beating him severly, and started to drag him into a building where he would probably be beaten more, tortured, or even killed. He claims that something spooked them as they were going in the building and he barely managed to escape.
He claims that the Swedish govt and the average Swede refuses to acknowledge this sort of stuff happening. And that rapes and violence are on the increase and that the stats say its attributed directly to the new immigrant population as the perpetrators.
On the counter argument, people say that stats arent as bad as reported or conflated by not using proper statistics. Like not using per capita, or comparing to previous stats, or other logical comparisons that you might expect when making a proper scientific/mathematical judgement off of.
Here is a clip from an interview I found his experience: + Show Spoiler +
Swedes, what are your thoughts or opinions on the state of your government, immigrants, and the current policies and issues that you face (or even fear) on a daily basis?
Do you have, or anyone you know have, any experience with the stuff he is talking about, or is it all outrage porn/fear mongering?
And if you can, please explain/prove why you know what you know and what is actually going on as you understand it.
you have some answers to this in the EU thread with a couple posts in the US thread but once you realize that the internet(by pushing "preferences/inclinations/favorites" on top of searches) and the media is setup to be partisan, you realize that even if you were to get genuine answers from genuine swedes, you won't be able to generalize them and come up with a scenario that matches realities on the ground. (that Horowitz thing was from sept '16ish and from what i could see on his other pieces he has an agenda)
Police has categorically denied that there are any no go zones. There was talk a short while about cancelling public transports (buses) in a few areas due to thrown stones but that died down pretty quickly. During daytime I would not be worried about walking in Sweden's worst areas. Night time slightly worried but would still do it if there was a reason for it.
There are areas with elevated risks according to the police, most of those where immigrants have been concentrated as Swedes slowly move to other areas. The other ones are where organised crime has set up and there are conflicts between groups (a pretty new phenomenon in Sweden that is combatted heavily). There are areas people do not want to move into due to the preconceived opinions people have about youth gangs of immigrants. You can see prices for buying apartments in those areas being up to 50% lower, so they are not attractive to the majority of the population.
The biggest problem Swedes in the Stockholm area faces is living space. There aren't enough apartments and immigration does not help, though refugees mostly end up in other parts of the country due to that. A big problem for people that want to immigrate to the Stockholm area is finding some place to live, it is among the most common problems. Companies also complain about not being able to recruit the people they want due to there not being any place for them to live.
Lastly, just as with the rest of Europe we have higher unemployment than we would like but not crippling levels yet.
I'm not swede but the same story was told by conservative US media about Paris. These "no-go zones" do not exist. Yes there are shady ghettos (that are clearly less safe than the rest of the city) but these are by no means even close to what you have in the US (aka way less dangerous). Do you have "no-go zones" in the US ?
There aren't any no go zones. There are however parts where police cars will always respond in pairs of two or more (because, if they leave their cars unattended, there's too much of a risk that their car tires get slashed). And there are areas where ambulances and firetrucks want backup, mostly because kids in those parts think it's cool to throw rocks and stones at authorities (from a distance).
Also if you're a clueless reporter you do not want to be strolling in with a camera crew and microphone in the middle of the local square. Immigrants from these parts already think they're being portrayed unfairly by the media. They will be openly antagonistic against media crews. You can definitely expect trouble and active obstruction if you go into these parts as though you were on a safari with a camera crew in the ghetto.
In my experience the people most outraged by Sweden's "immigrant problem" tend to be folks from rural parts with the least contact with and exposure to immigrants. They'll all have a couple of immigrant friends of whom they'll say "Oh yes, but my friend Ahmed here is a good immigrant, not at all like all those parasites leeching off of welfare!".
Immigrants are over represented in crime statistics, even when adjusting for socioeconomic status. However, you'll have to remember it's still a handful of percentage points of people we're talking about from a whole population of immigrants. What are you realistically going to do about it? Expel the 95% of immigrants in Sweden who have never been involved in any criminal activity?
These parts of Sweden don't differ significantly from parts of towns with low socioeconomic status from any other developed country. They exist in most countries. Ideally you would want to integrate people into society better. I myself am an immigrant. When we came here we initially didn't have a say where we'd be placed and where we'd be assigned to live (that's why we never settled in the same cities as our other relatives in Sweden).
But once someone gets a job and earns their own living, who's to stop them from living where they want? Or, as has become common: once someone's family can support them moving closer, they move closer to each other.
It's natural for people to do that and behave that way. You'd think it'd be easy to stop. But how? Do you draft laws to say a certain subset of your population do not have the right to choose where they live?
For immigrants who are on benefits and fully reliant on the government to find a place to live I can understand the argument. But what if they can support themselves? Or what if their family can support them? Are you going to introduce legislation which impinges on the freedom on an entire class of people?
If it wasn't because people believed in stuff like that I'd be amused by the things people say. A lot of my friends, students and others live in the so-called "worst" neighborhood in Sweden and basically it's just like any other place to walk through. People are bored, some old ladies are going shopping, kids play football. It's basically this fantasy by racist morons that they want to project on Sweden. Right now the economy is going very well, unemployment is the lowest in years. This is not to say that there aren't a lot of shitty things going on but they're pretty unrelated to some kind of general apocalypse brought on by immigrants.
Which neighbourhood is that, Heartland? I can give you an outsider's perspective. I didn't do any research about the area I was staying in when I went to Stockholm because as far as I'm concerned there's nowhere in Scandinavia where I would feel unsafe. So, I stayed in Rinkeby because it was cheapest. Now, I didn't feel at all threatened while I was there, but it was extremely marked that there were very few white people, and I didn't see a blonde person the entire time I was there. It legitimately felt like a different country. There were also guys racing cars down the main streets, etc, and no police presence.
Saw this video last year from the area. If I remember correctly the police were originally with this media outlet but told them they wouldn't go into the square because if they did nobody would talk to them.
I am Norwegian, but the Swedish economy has been absolutely booming the last 5 years, the local currency has gained ground , and the unemployment rate has been dropping.
Strangely, Trump, nor anyone wanting to paint Sweden as immigrant-hell-on-earth are ever mentioning this...
As of gun crimes, or murders in general, it is high by European standards, partly due to gang-wars in the south, but stil WAAY lower than in the US, which is practically a war-zone in comparison.
On February 22 2017 22:10 Slydie wrote: I am Norwegian, but the Swedish economy has been absolutely booming the last 5 years, the local currency has gained ground , and the unemployment rate has been dropping.
Strangely, Trump, nor anyone wanting to paint Sweden as immigrant-hell-on-earth are ever mentioning this...
As of gun crimes, or murders in general, it is high by European standards, partly due to gang-wars in the south, but stil WAAY lower than in the US, which is practically a war-zone in comparison.
Really depends on which group you're looking at.
The murder rate of white USA citizens goes down even more once you disclude Hispanics.
Regardless of where it is on earth, the crime pattern generally follows the same formula as this website to varying degrees. (Proportion of who is committing violent crime etc.) Similar in Canada / UK/ Sweden / Brazil / Australia / etc. Doesn't matter where. SEA are always the least violent / criminal - followed by whites - followed by the rest - followed by black people. www.heyjackass.com
So long as you continue to take African / ME migrants, your violent crime rate will increase. I do not know of a single place within the entire west where this pattern does not hold true. This is Canada before leftists banned data that didn't suit their worldview. Because apparently data is the problem and not the actions of the perpetrators.
On February 22 2017 22:10 Slydie wrote: I am Norwegian, but the Swedish economy has been absolutely booming the last 5 years, the local currency has gained ground , and the unemployment rate has been dropping.
Strangely, Trump, nor anyone wanting to paint Sweden as immigrant-hell-on-earth are ever mentioning this...
As of gun crimes, or murders in general, it is high by European standards, partly due to gang-wars in the south, but stil WAAY lower than in the US, which is practically a war-zone in comparison.
Inequality is also skyrocketing. It's the result of moving to a capitalistic model with slave labour immigration, no?
This one is disingenuous, although there has been a recent increase. The chart you're using omits the following:
- Between 1991 and 1998, there were at least a dozen explosion attacks or attempts. - Between 2008 and 2011, there were 22 noted explosive attacks or attempts: 12 in 2011, 7 in 2010, 2 in 2009, and 1 in 2008. Two of these (one in 2011, one in 2008), were reported to be as a result of hand grenades.
On February 22 2017 22:10 Slydie wrote: I am Norwegian, but the Swedish economy has been absolutely booming the last 5 years, the local currency has gained ground , and the unemployment rate has been dropping.
Strangely, Trump, nor anyone wanting to paint Sweden as immigrant-hell-on-earth are ever mentioning this...
As of gun crimes, or murders in general, it is high by European standards, partly due to gang-wars in the south, but stil WAAY lower than in the US, which is practically a war-zone in comparison.
Really depends on which group you're looking at. + Show Spoiler +
The murder rate of white USA citizens goes down even more once you disclude Hispanics. + Show Spoiler +
Regardless of where it is on earth, the crime pattern generally follows the same formula as this website to varying degrees. (Proportion of who is committing violent crime etc.) Similar in Canada / UK/ Sweden / Brazil / Australia / etc. Doesn't matter where. SEA are always the least violent / criminal - followed by whites - followed by the rest - followed by black people. www.heyjackass.com
So long as you continue to take African / ME migrants, your violent crime rate will increase. I do not know of a single place within the entire west where this pattern does not hold true. This is Canada before leftists banned data that didn't suit their worldview. Because apparently data is the problem and not the actions of the perpetrators.
Just... wow. Socio-economic status much, mate? What you're doing is cherry picking data to match your world views by omitting the reasoning as to why people turn to violence. Or something like that. Other people can explain it better.
Goodness, all the racists are out in full-force today.
When the racists realize that racism was imposed on them by politicians and the ultra-wealthy as a distraction from class warfare, the world will be a much happier place. It's not black people that are dismantling your health insurance and other things that keep you alive, it's social Darwinist billionaires.
"A 1996 report by the Swedish National Council for Crime Prevention determined that between 1985 and 1989 individuals born in Iraq, North Africa (Algeria, Libya, Morocco and Tunisia),Africa (excluding Uganda and the North African countries), other Middle East (Jordan, Palestine, Syria), Iran and Eastern Europe (Romania, Bulgaria) were convicted of rape at rates 20, 23, 17, 9, 10 and 18 greater than individuals born in Sweden respectively.[96] Both the 1996 and 2005 reports have been criticized for using insufficient controls for socioeconomic factors.[12]"
This is coming as another case of gang-rape is being prosecuted in Germany this week, where nine Iraqis raped a German woman. It's funny how you read this shit every day but somehow it's "statistically insignifcant".