Not to question the decision of banning on this website, but I can hardly see the point in banning someone anymore. I personally have about 2000 names on my wc3 banlist, that I use for dota alone. i have being playing dota for about 3 years now, and i am selective in what i consider ban worthy. usually when i post someone is banned, the person doesn't get kicked because they were banned more than four months ago, or the host just doesn't care and wants the game to start.
And even banning on this site seems pretty pointless as well. Once again not trying to anger anyone, just trying to make my point. getting banned does not mean you can never post again. just find a different computer and log in with a new name, and away you go.
the only reasons i can see now to ban someone is because of power, spite, and to set an example. the only problem is setting an example is not needed. the people on this site who want to continue posting, and continue to get a good reputation with their posting aren't going to throw that away with a bannable post. they already know the norm of what is acceptable. and the people that get banned usually know why they got banned and don't give a care. i've never heard of someone being emotionally crushed because they were banned from something.
so do you think banning is pointless? or is it more like an ant that crawls into your house, and even though you know theres a hundred more ants that are going to find their way in, you crush that ant because it ticked you off for being such a cocky dink.
im not looking for an absolute answer, so much as an opinion that can help rekindle my desire to ban people.
Go read the gg.net forums then tell us banning doesn't make a forum better. The moderation weeds out the people who have nothing to contribute but feel like doing it anyway and keeps the rest of us making quality posts. There's no point in anyone doing anything for tl if the community sucks. Banning not only improves (or prevents) the posts of the bad it also encourages the good posters to contribute.
Take the strategy forum. Chill rules it with an iron fist and closes [h] topics where the creator puts no effort in and just asks for a miracle cure to stop them sucking. He also strat forum bans people who go off topic or just give an unqualified and irrelevant opinion on the subject. Not only is this better for the person asking for help but it also stimulates real discussion on strategy and gives a few gems like Nony reason to spend an hour typing up a long explanation of just how to win at starcraft. I doubt that same motivation would be there if his post was lost in a swarm of "lol you suck" and "protoss imba" comments. The gg.net strategy forum is a joke because nobody with anything to contribute can be bothered because there really is no point. Their time is wasted. Moderation generates discussion and rewards those who contribute.
Banning can be a somewhat pointless exercise (in that someone can make another account and continue to make shitty posts), but I don't think that means it should be done less. If anything, that means it should be done more.
the only problem is setting an example is not needed.
This is your base assumption that is wrong. Even though this community is aged and the rules of what is/is not acceptable should be clear, people continue to make countless shitty, shitty posts. A lot of people do. A forum needs to be continually pruned in order to keep its condition pristine.
This seems like a very rhetorical question... I mean if you see an irritating, cocky douche of an ant, you stomp it. OR you can just wait until the 100 other cocky douche ants crawl in and have a blasty blast with the amazing ambiance of cockiness and doucheness. The answer is apparent.
If you ask me a ban is not as simple as you state here. For me I'm using my real account and lots of people know me. I've somewhat to lose what I gained over the time I'm here and contribute and try to enjoy my stay and the stay of others.
If I would get banned I'd lose my 5000+ posts, my nickname and my reputation. Also the chance of getting banned with lots of posts is a lot lower than getting banned with few posts. There are really good examples on teamliquid for users who would have got a ban without having thousands of posts for bitching around (even if you can see its just fun).
The point is, when posters know each other over the time, they can be a bit cockier and everyone still knows how its meant. If someone with 10 posts insults you, he won't enjoy his stay long enough to post another 10 times. I think you should continue to ban people which are unable to stay within really simple rules. Basically all you need to do is:
- post in English - be mannered / friendly
No one will ban you for your opinion if you tell it without insulting others.
Edit: On a site note, did you get a ban? Because you have 7 posts and ask about stuff like that :-)! Haha.. just a question, I'm not pointing at you!
If you do get banned it's still somewhat of a hassle to get around the problem. And most trolls and idiots are probably not ready to go through all that just to post. And as Kwark said, banning people will eventually thin the flock, removing the unwanted people, while making the posters think twice about whether are actually contributing.
The only reason I post so little on TL and lurk so much is that I think the quality of most post are so high that I feel i seldom have much to contribute when there is already so much great reading available.
Banning is very important. I feel that a moderation staff needs to be willing to (for rule violations, by extension a clear, concise list of rules is nice) and ban openly. Explaining why said person was banned is quite important to a good community.
On October 24 2008 04:16 capek wrote: but it also sometimes reduces the reputation of the site and makes some people fear/hate the site
then again, it can be seen that it fortifies the nature of the site and weeds out the wusses
How would banning idiots and assholes reduce the reputation of the site or make people fear it? If people are afraid of joining a site because of the fact that they'll get banned for making disrespectful and dumbass remarks, then they shouldn't be joining in the first place.
Naruto is right, the point of having a forum identity is to build it and form relationships with people. A ban resets your ability to do this. In addition, bans accomplish much more than simply setting an example, they are the basically the only enforcement tool for bad posting and forum disruption. Yes, people can re-create accounts, but don't underestimate the annoyance of constantly having to remake accounts when you are banned (and eventually IP banned if this happens a lot). It's a major deterrence and why lots of banned users don't come back.
On October 24 2008 04:44 vGl-CoW wrote: you have two banned accounts
RAPIST: stop punishing rape you guys it's not getting anyone anywhere
i have two? i thought i had only the one Obesitar. i agree with the ban btw, i stepped out of line.
ya you guys are right, about the weeding out and all that other stuff. it seemed like a good argument at the time when i wrote it, but after reading everyone's comments, and re-reading my own, it seems like a pretty stupid question, with the answer being quite clear.
so do you think banning is pointless? or is it more like an ant that crawls into your house, and even though you know theres a hundred more ants that are going to find their way in, you crush that ant because it ticked you off for being such a cocky dink.
Banning would be like getting rid of ants because if you know if you don't, your place will be infested with ants. Just because others will make it in doesn't mean you don't do anything about it.
There's obvious reasons to ban people. These include people who post scams, viruses, and disgusting photos. Given that this is the internet, that kind of crap shows up a lot, and moderation shields our eyes and our computers. Other issues like excessive spamming and flaming, just isn't needed here.
Also, if someone decides to circumvent a ban, it really reflects more onto them then it does onto the people that banned him/her. I mean, if it's just a site on the internet; why would one be so desperate to come back especially just to shit it up again? And a banee could still just read instead of posting garbage.
Anyhow, a community has certain standards, and if someone isn't willing to adhere to them, then why remain part of the community? Ultimately, it saves everyone's time.
Well you see, teamliquid is sort of a charity, they provide gosugamers with members. If it wasnt for TLs strict policy, we wouldnt have had a tl vs gg.net match, and I wouldnt have laughed my ass off of the poor but brilliant klazart impersonator.
On October 24 2008 04:44 vGl-CoW wrote: you have two banned accounts
RAPIST: stop punishing rape you guys it's not getting anyone anywhere
The penile system is actually largely ineffective. That is, incarceration. You basically either need to rehabilitate criminals, or kill them if you don't want them to commit crimes anymore.
That said, IP ban is pretty much the TL equivalent of capital punishment, and capital punishment is a very good deterrent for most crimes (as well as in keeping the site clean).
On October 24 2008 04:50 Eatme wrote: Well just compare TL.net to all other starcraft sites and the answer is obvious. Banning works and prevents us from becoming X17.
SIT SAT SO FAT CAT IN THE HAT ROFL 5-0 EZ WITH REPS UGLY KID SITTING IN DARK GETTING TAN FROM MONITOR LOL MONITOR TAN LINES
its required because a lot of people can just spam the shit out of the place with almost no goods, wtf am i talking about, with NO goods, not almost, that comes out of it. theres a lot of forums that dont ban, theyll warn and shit like that but wont ban. imagine the world with a lot of trash, if it wasnt picked up, wouldnt disease evolve from it?
On October 24 2008 04:44 vGl-CoW wrote: you have two banned accounts
RAPIST: stop punishing rape you guys it's not getting anyone anywhere
The penile system is actually largely ineffective. That is, incarceration. You basically either need to rehabilitate criminals, or kill them if you don't want them to commit crimes anymore.
That said, IP ban is pretty much the TL equivalent of capital punishment, and capital punishment is a very good deterrent for most crimes (as well as in keeping the site clean).
Laws don't mean anything if you don't enforce them.
And you'd be surprised how much most people's behavior is based on the laws that are in effect and the opinion of others. Only like 1% of all people actually act on universal principles. Stop banning people and not only the otherwise banned people flood the site with a lot of crap, a HUGE amount of other posters who would normally not post crap would do so immediately.
Though this is all just a positive side effect, in the end we can think morally so therefore we should punish morally wrong behavior.
On October 24 2008 04:44 vGl-CoW wrote: you have two banned accounts
RAPIST: stop punishing rape you guys it's not getting anyone anywhere
The penile system is actually largely ineffective. That is, incarceration. You basically either need to rehabilitate criminals, or kill them if you don't want them to commit crimes anymore.
Why not keep them locked up? If there is a shortage of prisons, then build some more prisons...
without banning Teamliquid commandment #10 would not be possible
10. THOU SHALL HAVE FUN
It's a fun site with fun people. Have fun with it. Enjoy it. Make others happy. Be happy. Avoid being negative. We don't expect you to be Pollyanna, but users who are consistently negative will draw the ire of their peers and site staff alike. No one likes people who have nothing but bad things to say all the time. Heed the admonition of Oscar Wilde: some people bring happiness wherever they go, others whenever they go.
Most of the benefits derived by visiting this site is available to people without an account.
Locking down ability to watch live SC, read recaps, use the calendar, use TLPD, etc. would make bans hurt much more and get more people to register instead of lurk, increasing the chances they eventually post.
On October 24 2008 05:27 GrandInquisitor wrote: Most of the benefits derived by visiting this site is available to people without an account.
Locking down ability to watch live SC, read recaps, use the calendar, use TLPD, etc. would make bans hurt much more and get more people to register instead of lurk, increasing the chances they eventually post.
It doesn't change the fact that TL's forums are much better than pretty much any other forums out there, threads that are complete shit tend to get closed fairly promptly and disrespectful posters get what is coming to them.
I remember when that one guy got banned for making fun of pubbanana's dog dying, imo very justified ban right there. Most forums just aren't that good about banning.
TL is also the only forum I've been to where people post "In before close."
What did Dino do? All I know is that he's a foreigner accused of hacking. What did he do to get so much hate? Based on the TL crowd disliking him, I have no doubt its something bad, but can someone explain the story behind it?
"In before close" is a great line. Actually people would say that in this other forum I would go to, but it turned into one big inside joke basically. Which is like the point where a forum ultimately fails. People get all emotional and involved with each others lives. It really does eff things up.
I like TL, I don't really post alot, I read the news. I read strat forum. I watch vods.
Its like I actually look forward to what happens with the whole point of the website, which is important for a member of any forum to have. Because just making stupid effing inside jokes is pointless and not really long lasting fun.
I went to the mega64ums site before this. Basically the reason that failed as a forum is because -the show sucks(just an opinion, fine to those who like it), - the creator is insecure and takes it out on people, and gets selectively and personally involved with members. Now. That isn't such a bad thing to keep contact with your audience, but like for example when suddenly a girl appeared on the forums, its like OH SNAP GOTTA KEEP HER TO MYSELF, and gets personally involved with them and bans them for personal reasons, even though they didnt break rules. Its like, come on, you are supposed to be running a show and you just cause drama instead. Haha.
- Also it was a mistake for him to switch his server with an attention whore guy who basically has little tantrums and would ban randomly and just try to manipulate people to keep his reputation good and get him on internet tv. He really only wanted to get his own show going or something.
It was very poorly moderated, causing alot of unneccesary drama and cliques and inside jokes for every thread. Which is lame to be honest.
TL on the other hand is more professional. It has alot of mods. Alot of active members per day, alot of personalities, it gives fresh news constantly, has alot of people who are actually passionate about the game and scene. I can see why it has lasted for the 7 or so years now, or however long. Everyone basically plays starcraft, which on the other hand, not everyone watched and liked mega64, so they just troll and flame and raid other forums with inside jokes( which was fun for a while, but again, it makes forums fail) I'm sure there are forum members here that keep in contact with each other. but I have never noticed just a group of people ganging up in every thread on one person in particular for a long long time till they finally leave or whatever. Maybe I just look in the wrong places.
I guess aside from all this rambling and testifying. This is a pretty solid forum, it has good moderation, although it isn't the best, it sure has a good format and certainly improved alot. I think this mma forum which I rarely go to is the best, because the fact I hardly post there, and my brother is a mod there. Thats the sole reason its the best.
also a little end note. Chill is effin awesome. The strat forum is like infinity times better with a savage like him running it.
I used to go to a boxing forum, and at the time it was a small-time thing. Then they got some corporate sponsorships, and tons of people started flooding the site. The moderators didn't ban anybody, and all intelligent discussion was lost. It was just a bunch of retards typing in caps that so and so was stupid, or so and so sucked, and not offering any explanation. Had they banned people, it would have still been a top-notch forum, full of people who knew what they were talking about (pro fighters used to visit the forum, but stopped because of all the retards). Not banning destroys the quality of the posters on a given forum, and a forum is worthless if it's posters are worthless, no matter what the name of the forum (by that I mean if it's a prestigious name, like TL is in the SC community, it wouldn't matter if all the posters were shitty posters).
Banning idiots is the only way to keep forum quality at a high level.
I think bans are fine. It's not difficult to ban someone and it's a lot harder for them to get their post count back up and name recognition. If they really want to be asshats you can IP ban them.
Aside: Fumanchu, did you play NetStorm? I figure it's worth a shot since SC and NS are both strategy games.
On October 24 2008 04:44 vGl-CoW wrote: you have two banned accounts
RAPIST: stop punishing rape you guys it's not getting anyone anywhere
The penile system is actually largely ineffective. That is, incarceration. You basically either need to rehabilitate criminals, or kill them if you don't want them to commit crimes anymore.
That said, IP ban is pretty much the TL equivalent of capital punishment, and capital punishment is a very good deterrent for most crimes (as well as in keeping the site clean).
places with capital punishment have higher rates of crime juuuuuuuuuuuuuuust saying
bans here are totally different and bans here are completely worthwhile.
Sure people can bypass banning by using proxies etc, but really; banning is worth it. People deserving a ban will never get a high post count because they keep getting banned. Not to say post count matters, but generally a higher post count gains more respect than a lower one.
Idk, when you weigh the pro's and con's, banning is beneficial. If you didn't ban anyone, the forums would be a shithole. Imagine blogs, but 10x more clueless and random, but for the entire forums.
On October 24 2008 05:27 GrandInquisitor wrote: Locking down ability to watch live SC, read recaps, use the calendar, use TLPD, etc. would make bans hurt much more and get more people to register instead of lurk, increasing the chances they eventually post.
I don't think that a policy like this would be a good idea -- the resources of TL are available to everyone: members, koreans, progamers, casual moms stumbling on this site, etc. TL exists as an educational portal for starcraft, and stopping people without registration/bans from accessing content would be like banning the uneducated from attending schools.
I am sure that the ratio of lurkers vs posters is greatly in the lurker's favor and that's fine. Everyone doesn't *need* to participate in the forum discussions, the ones who do chose to do so for a closer feeling community. Moderation exists so the staff members can enjoy the website and converse with people they like --- the resources of the site exist to celebrate our love for starcraft, and these things are separate.
On October 24 2008 06:27 CDRdude wrote: What did Dino do? All I know is that he's a foreigner accused of hacking. What did he do to get so much hate? Based on the TL crowd disliking him, I have no doubt its something bad, but can someone explain the story behind it?
It's not that easy to just get a new computer every time you get IP banned. I mean, you'd get the whole public library banned from TL eventually. And no one really listens to people with less than 10 posts anyway! (Unless their post is surprisingly thoughtful and intelligent sounding, and even then...)
I have on more than one occasion chosen to not click the post button after writing a post due to it being something I thought would get me banned/get a new user banned, so I think the banning on TL does set an example, at least for me.
To put it simply, without any moderation or banning, this place could potentially turn into 4chan. By weeding out garbage, you either piss them off enough to leave entirely or they will come back in a more sane frame of mind or perhaps on a short lived anger streak. Either way, everyone is left to see what being a dick gets you and what remains is mostly decent posts. I truly believe people are cameleon like, so when there's only high quality posts on a forum you can expect the general population to at least try and post quality. So yeah, banning does make a difference in a good way, on this forum at least..
- of course at times people will refuse to follow common social rules and leave a forum no other recourse but to ban and exclude - but I will argue that banning ultimately is failure for any forum aspiring growth and developement.. I know it might be hard concept to follow through for some but you can actually do without banning in the vast majority of cases simply by using other approaches that promote more positive and inclusive attirbutes in all of us.. - anyway the main problem with banning is not with banning itself.. banning is nothing more than just one more forum moderation tool.. the real problem with banning is with its application: if you have a retard moderator, banning will always be a negative influence on the forum and will only hurt the forum in the long run etc.. banning is as good or as bad as the moderator's wisdom and criteria doing the banning.. (in fact good moderators usually moderate by setting a higher example and tend to avoid banning unless left with no other option).
On October 24 2008 04:01 Fumanchu wrote: the only reasons i can see now to ban someone is because of power, spite, and to set an example. the only problem is setting an example is not needed. the people on this site who want to continue posting, and continue to get a good reputation with their posting aren't going to throw that away with a bannable post. they already know the norm of what is acceptable. and the people that get banned usually know why they got banned and don't give a care. i've never heard of someone being emotionally crushed because they were banned from something.
The reasons you listed Power, by power do you mean admin power? you are saying one of the reason is because the admins have the power to ban people therefore they just ban without a reason?
spite, by spite do you mean emotionally attached to someone's words over the internet? and then use that admin power to repair the hurted feelings?
set an example, so that others will never post anything that cause emotional "spite" toward the admins?
I see a correlation between all three of the reasons you gave, and since you said the ONLY reasons meaning you base on these reasons to create your 3000 banned people on dota. which your yourself is the role of admin in your dota banlist.
This correlation between all three of your reasons for banning people provided that you are acting in the role of admin, which is "IT IS ALL ABOUT YOURSELF "
and you dare use your self-fish reasons to compare to teamliquid admins'?
Your hypocrisy knows no bounds, you don't care about all the thousands who were banned before you because they are not "emotionally crushed", it's all about yourself (maybe you are emotionally crushed?).
you made this post after you got banned and try to show the admins that you can still post here, so why bother banning.
Did I get it right?
let me guess your possible response to my post: 1) you flame along the lines of me = stupid 2) ignore my post 3) attempt to construct a sound argument and have a manner debate
I'm guessing it's either 1 or 2. prove me wrong plz
Um... if banning is useless because they come back, then prison should be abolished because most of those guys in jail are going to get out again.
If your main point is that anyone can get around a ban, that is true. But it takes a lot of effort to keep finding a new IP to make a new account, more than most people would take just to be jerks.
lol ive never been banned, and i've made quite a few raging flame posts but they were all justified.
banning takes away the incentive to post useless things. with the stream of new-comers and a lot of chan people too i think, banning helps keep the sanity of TL.
FYI-- Unsure of what the point was about your wc3/dota banlist--disregarding.
You say banning on TL seems pretty pointless because they can still post. [This logically says, the point of banning is to stop them from posting--if it does not do this, then it does nothing.]
Following this, you conclude that there must be some point to banning [right] when you try to look for what the point could be. You list several potential points then shoot them down. However, with this approach you will never prove it is pointless, only that we know no point of it (but there may still be one, yet undiscovered). This is where your post goes.
You say these are the only reasons you can think of [assuming you are inviting others to propose others if they know them]: power, spite, and to set an example. FYI To be honest I can't follow the connection between the sentences in your third paragraph. I do not see clearly what you mean by power; and if I analyze it a bit, spite seems to be a pretty empty saying too--they are angry so they ban you. That's a description of the emotion, not the reason or purpose or "point." When you are angry, say you swing a bat at someone. The point is to destroy them, in such a case. You believe the bat does something--it's not pointless. So you see how "spite" to me does not seem to describe the real "point"--the point is that you believe the result will happen, the point is the intended result--i.e., making someone lose the ability to post on their account, having to make a new account [surely you concede that this is what happens from a ban on TL]. Therefore, what you are really saying is that making someone do this whole thing is actually pointless. You are perhaps saying it is negligable, that it does not perform any function for the site.
Others have responded that it at least slows down and deters many people; some have said the bans they have witnessed have changed how they posted. It seems to do something, and I have not been convinced that these things the bans clearly do, is pointless.
So this is my analysis of your first post. You sound like you are getting tired of banning what seems like an endless army of ban-needing people. I think you know though that there would be a difference if there was no banning at all, despite how hopeless it seems that the banning never does enough.
Hope this cheers you up. I'm interested in this conversation BTW because before I was banned from this site, I was someone who frequently adocated the banning of particular members. Since being banned I have come to take a softer stance on banning. But I hardly see it as pointless, which is what this topic is about. It's a death sentence within the universe of this site, at least within the universe of your identity--it would be like if you were in an online political forum and you were Bill Clinton but you couldn't tell anyone, compared to in RL where you can (that's the difference between being banned and not ever being banned)--obviously that matters.
Of course it is worth it. Even tho you can go and create new account you have to find a new IP, register again, create new nick and set's your post count to 0. At least it is a good punishment and maybe you learn something from it
I'd rename this topic into "Is PERMAbanning worth it?".
Because tempbanning is perfectly reasonable. However PERMAbanning is like completely 'imbalanced' to put it that way. It doesn't offer a realistic crime-punishment balance.
If you draw a parallel between real life and crime punishments, permaban would be a deathpenalty.
Now you name me one thing a person can do on TeH internetz that requires this cyber-TL-deathpenalty.
He can't kill(ban) anyone else. He can't take any of your possesions.
The only possible reason would be if someone insults someone in a very bad bad way.
But we see permabans for to petty reasons like a bad thread made.
I'd go exclusively with tempbans, preferably with explanations on why a person got the penalty. Then it's a corrective measure which is what bad posters need.
On October 25 2008 00:14 niteReloaded wrote: I'd rename this topic into "Is PERMAbanning worth it?".
Because tempbanning is perfectly reasonable. However PERMAbanning is like completely 'imbalanced' to put it that way. It doesn't offer a realistic crime-punishment balance.
If you draw a parallel between real life and crime punishments, permaban would be a deathpenalty.
Now you name me one thing a person can do on TeH internetz that requires this cyber-TL-deathpenalty.
He can't kill(ban) anyone else. He can't take any of your possesions.
The only possible reason would be if someone insults someone in a very bad bad way.
But we see permabans for to petty reasons like a bad thread made.
I'd go exclusively with tempbans, preferably with explanations on why a person got the penalty. Then it's a corrective measure which is what bad posters need.
Killing people is wrong because they have a right to life. Permabanning people isn't wrong because they don't have a right to teamliquid. Your analogy fails. This is our house. We can kick people out and stop them coming back in.
On October 25 2008 00:29 niteReloaded wrote: Do you have the doors on your house open so that anyone comes in?
Your analogy fails. If this was a house - it'd be an invite-only style forum.
Then it's a library. Anyone can come in but if you start being too noisy then they can ban you for the common good. My point is people don't have a right to it. Banning isn't morally wrong.
And what do you need to do in order to get banned for life from a library?
I'm pretty sure you can get away with pretty much everything untill you start causing some cardinal shit. If you are simply being a naughty boy by talking loudly, you'll be warned at least a few times before any concrete action. ---
It's not even about having rights or not.
It's about what are you trying to acomplish by permabanning someone. You just want to ban a person out of pleasure? I dont think so.
You want him to stop 'behaving' badly. I'm not sure permabanning is the best solution, and just having the permaban button doesn't mean you need to press it just coz you can.
On October 25 2008 02:00 Kennigit wrote: Note that we now have 30 and 90 Day bans so permanents will probably decrease significantly.
great news; u guys ever thought of allowing characters back on that same note? the swarm of lurkers and smurfs makes me uneasy, I can't keep up with who is who lately..
On October 25 2008 02:00 Kennigit wrote: Note that we now have 30 and 90 Day bans so permanents will probably decrease significantly.
great news; u guys ever thought of allowing characters back on that same note? the swarm of lurkers and smurfs makes me uneasy, I can't keep up with who is who lately..
Look at the site with 80% retarded threads. GG.net Totally worth it. There are only a few bans I don't understand. Puerto Rican's ban for example. I asume there are a lot of things going on I am not aware of so I don't complain.
On October 25 2008 02:20 KaasZerg wrote: Look at the site with 80% retarded threads. GG.net Totally worth it. There are only a few bans I don't understand. Puerto Rican's ban for example. I asume there are a lot of things going on I am not aware of so I don't complain.
On October 25 2008 02:20 KaasZerg wrote: Look at the site with 80% retarded threads. GG.net Totally worth it. There are only a few bans I don't understand. Puerto Rican's ban for example. I asume there are a lot of things going on I am not aware of so I don't complain.
I would hope that you would trust us. PuertoRican's ban is more than justified.
On October 25 2008 00:24 Kwark wrote: This is our house. We can kick people out and stop them coming back in.
It is actually not your house and there is very little "we" going on when it comes to banning.
Actually I think it a tribute to the sense of community which tl creates that I do view it as something of which I am a part. You may not, but don't project your sense of isolation and hostility here onto others.
On October 25 2008 02:20 KaasZerg wrote: Look at the site with 80% retarded threads. GG.net Totally worth it. There are only a few bans I don't understand. Puerto Rican's ban for example. I asume there are a lot of things going on I am not aware of so I don't complain.
I would hope that you would trust us. PuertoRican's ban is more than justified.
On October 25 2008 03:04 Kwark wrote: Actually I think it a tribute to the sense of community which tl creates that I do view it as something of which I am a part. You may not, but don't project your sense of isolation and hostility here onto others.
I don't argue that we are forum members, or that we have a sense of community, which by the way goes way beyond tl.net - it is after all a drum I have been beating myself many years too - but trust me, it is not your house in the sense of mensrea commandments - every forum member is a guest by definition; as for my sense of "isolation and hostility" - those are ur words, ur opinion and not mine nor do I share them.. projection indeed lol..
hm I dont really get the concept of banning, especially the extreme forms it has taken on tl.net. Imo a forum is to voice your opinion and read the opinion of others, I dont wanna socialize or "build a reputation" on a damn internet forum. People who judge the content of a post by the postcount of the poster are beyond help anyway imo.
Thats why I got banned like 3 times already, I dont care about postcount and voice my opinion even If I know the majority of users will dislike it. I didnt really flame either. Last ban I called Idra ignorant for thinking pro gamer muta micro is learnable by everyone in 2 days. Even If I had no reason at all other than Idras general attitude to call him ignorant I hardly see anything wrong with it, Its kind of retarded if someone with 5000 posts can run around and behave like an ass and when you name him "ignorant" for a specific thing he said, you get banned. I proceeded to ask Chill if he uses 2 hat mut or 3 hat mut more often nowadays, instead of an answer I got a ban. I didnt really mean it in an offensive way, just was curious cus Chill seems to think 2 hat mut is superior to 3 hat mut so I wanted to know If he already follows his own strategic belief. Others in the same thread called me asshole, a far more serious insult imo, but hey its ok to flame some low post user if the majority dislikes him, nobody got banned for that of course.
The account before that I got banned because I told carnac he doesnt have to behave like a nerd, just because he was on a nerd school (I was on the same school, so just trust me when I say its true, its a special school). I didnt just tell him that out of the blue and it also wasnt really meant as an insult, I just posted it because obviously he had been at home watching the euro soccer quarter and semifinal with Germany in front of his conputer, which is just a really nerdy thing to do in Germany, where soccer is sooo big.
If I had sucked dick for 2500 posts I could go ahead and flame everyone out of "fun" like Inc or Idra or even Rekrul do, but since I dont care and dont really want to flame senseless I am fine by posting whatever I think is appropriate and getting banned for it over and over again, because some people just cant stand to hear a bit of provocative criticism.
On October 26 2008 01:34 Kallepettersen wrote: hm I dont really get the concept of banning, especially the extreme forms it has taken on tl.net. Imo a forum is to voice your opinion and read the opinion of others, I dont wanna socialize or "build a reputation" on a damn internet forum. People who judge the content of a post by the postcount of the poster are beyond help anyway imo.
Thats why I got banned like 3 times already, I dont care about postcount and voice my opinion even If I know the majority of users will dislike it. I didnt really flame either. Last ban I called Idra ignorant for thinking pro gamer muta micro is learnable by everyone in 2 days. Even If I had no reason at all other than Idras general attitude to call him ignorant I hardly see anything wrong with it, Its kind of retarded if someone with 5000 posts can run around and behave like an ass and when you name him "ignorant" for a specific thing he said, you get banned. I proceeded to ask Chill if he uses 2 hat mut or 3 hat mut more often nowadays, instead of an answer I got a ban. I didnt really mean it in an offensive way, just was curious cus Chill seems to think 2 hat mut is superior to 3 hat mut so I wanted to know If he already follows his own strategic belief. Others in the same thread called me asshole, a far more serious insult imo, but hey its ok to flame some low post user if the majority dislikes him, nobody got banned for that of course.
The account before that I got banned because I told carnac he doesnt have to behave like a nerd, just because he was on a nerd school (I was on the same school, so just trust me when I say its true, its a special school). I didnt just tell him that out of the blue and it also wasnt really meant as an insult, I just posted it because obviously he had been at home watching the euro soccer quarter and semifinal with Germany in front of his conputer, which is just a really nerdy thing to do in Germany, where soccer is sooo big.
If I had sucked dick for 2500 posts I could go ahead and flame everyone out of "fun" like Inc or Idra or even Rekrul do, but since I dont care and dont really want to flame senseless I am fine by posting whatever I think is appropriate and getting banned for it over and over again, because some people just cant stand to hear a bit of provocative criticism.
You were being disrespectful to people first, why do you expect people respect you in return? Choose your words wisely, It has nothing to do with post counts. And don't point your fingers at Inc Idra and Rekrul to whine about it. By the way here is how you should flame if you choose to do so in the future, you provide hard evidence on what you are talking about.
Example: Kallepettersen are you are a hypocrite
On October 26 2008 01:34 Kallepettersen wrote: I didnt really flame either.
On October 26 2008 01:34 Kallepettersen wrote: Last ban I called Idra ignorant The account before that I got banned because I told carnac he doesnt have to behave like a nerd
On October 26 2008 01:34 Kallepettersen wrote: hm I dont really get the concept of banning, especially the extreme forms it has taken on tl.net. Imo a forum is to voice your opinion and read the opinion of others, I dont wanna socialize or "build a reputation" on a damn internet forum. People who judge the content of a post by the postcount of the poster are beyond help anyway imo.
Thats why I got banned like 3 times already, I dont care about postcount and voice my opinion even If I know the majority of users will dislike it. I didnt really flame either. Last ban I called Idra ignorant for thinking pro gamer muta micro is learnable by everyone in 2 days. Even If I had no reason at all other than Idras general attitude to call him ignorant I hardly see anything wrong with it, Its kind of retarded if someone with 5000 posts can run around and behave like an ass and when you name him "ignorant" for a specific thing he said, you get banned. I proceeded to ask Chill if he uses 2 hat mut or 3 hat mut more often nowadays, instead of an answer I got a ban. I didnt really mean it in an offensive way, just was curious cus Chill seems to think 2 hat mut is superior to 3 hat mut so I wanted to know If he already follows his own strategic belief. Others in the same thread called me asshole, a far more serious insult imo, but hey its ok to flame some low post user if the majority dislikes him, nobody got banned for that of course.
The account before that I got banned because I told carnac he doesnt have to behave like a nerd, just because he was on a nerd school (I was on the same school, so just trust me when I say its true, its a special school). I didnt just tell him that out of the blue and it also wasnt really meant as an insult, I just posted it because obviously he had been at home watching the euro soccer quarter and semifinal with Germany in front of his conputer, which is just a really nerdy thing to do in Germany, where soccer is sooo big.
If I had sucked dick for 2500 posts I could go ahead and flame everyone out of "fun" like Inc or Idra or even Rekrul do, but since I dont care and dont really want to flame senseless I am fine by posting whatever I think is appropriate and getting banned for it over and over again, because some people just cant stand to hear a bit of provocative criticism.
hey buddy, I got 4.5k posts and if I start going around being a retard like you I kinda expect to get ban as well. If we follow your belief that the forum is for voicing your opinions and you get banned for it then obviously we don't want your opinion, on three accounts for that matter. The only thing you should judge a post-count by is that "wow this guy made that many comments and havent gotten banned yet, this shows that his posting style is somewhat/perfectly acceptable." Do you go around talking to people in real life just like you do on here? If you do then tell us about the general reaction.
On October 26 2008 01:34 Kallepettersen wrote: hm I dont really get the concept of banning, especially the extreme forms it has taken on tl.net. Imo a forum is to voice your opinion and read the opinion of others, I dont wanna socialize or "build a reputation" on a damn internet forum. People who judge the content of a post by the postcount of the poster are beyond help anyway imo.
Thats why I got banned like 3 times already, I dont care about postcount and voice my opinion even If I know the majority of users will dislike it. I didnt really flame either. Last ban I called Idra ignorant for thinking pro gamer muta micro is learnable by everyone in 2 days. Even If I had no reason at all other than Idras general attitude to call him ignorant I hardly see anything wrong with it, Its kind of retarded if someone with 5000 posts can run around and behave like an ass and when you name him "ignorant" for a specific thing he said, you get banned. I proceeded to ask Chill if he uses 2 hat mut or 3 hat mut more often nowadays, instead of an answer I got a ban. I didnt really mean it in an offensive way, just was curious cus Chill seems to think 2 hat mut is superior to 3 hat mut so I wanted to know If he already follows his own strategic belief. Others in the same thread called me asshole, a far more serious insult imo, but hey its ok to flame some low post user if the majority dislikes him, nobody got banned for that of course.
The account before that I got banned because I told carnac he doesnt have to behave like a nerd, just because he was on a nerd school (I was on the same school, so just trust me when I say its true, its a special school). I didnt just tell him that out of the blue and it also wasnt really meant as an insult, I just posted it because obviously he had been at home watching the euro soccer quarter and semifinal with Germany in front of his conputer, which is just a really nerdy thing to do in Germany, where soccer is sooo big.
If I had sucked dick for 2500 posts I could go ahead and flame everyone out of "fun" like Inc or Idra or even Rekrul do, but since I dont care and dont really want to flame senseless I am fine by posting whatever I think is appropriate and getting banned for it over and over again, because some people just cant stand to hear a bit of provocative criticism.
I think this retard just invented a new euphemism for trolling.
On October 25 2008 02:20 KaasZerg wrote: Look at the site with 80% retarded threads. GG.net Totally worth it. There are only a few bans I don't understand. Puerto Rican's ban for example. I asume there are a lot of things going on I am not aware of so I don't complain.
Has something to do with taking screenshots of TL and giving them to another site with the intent of embarassing someone (I looked at banlist). I don't know any detail but surely someone here who does will explain it.
this forum is moderated ridiculously well compared to other big forums. it's so refreshing to not see the post content being dominated by memey stuff and pointless flaming which seems to fuck up most big forums, if you guys have ever read the poker forum 2+2 you know exactly what i'm talking about, you also just don't see as much general negativity here which is great.
On October 25 2008 00:14 niteReloaded wrote: I'd rename this topic into "Is PERMAbanning worth it?".
Because tempbanning is perfectly reasonable. However PERMAbanning is like completely 'imbalanced' to put it that way. It doesn't offer a realistic crime-punishment balance.
If you draw a parallel between real life and crime punishments, permaban would be a deathpenalty.
Now you name me one thing a person can do on TeH internetz that requires this cyber-TL-deathpenalty.
He can't kill(ban) anyone else. He can't take any of your possesions.
The only possible reason would be if someone insults someone in a very bad bad way.
But we see permabans for to petty reasons like a bad thread made.
I'd go exclusively with tempbans, preferably with explanations on why a person got the penalty. Then it's a corrective measure which is what bad posters need.
your analogy is flawed. permaban is more similar to being exiled from a kingdom, not being put to death.
if permaban was the equivalent of the death penalty it would be impossible for banned users to create a new account on this site, and even reform and eventually become decent members of the community.
honestly i think this forum specifically lost a lot of its flavor by banning some charismatic users, i.e. Chibi or w/e his name was. How do u get banned from a bw website for being a pedophile? It was mentioned above that many old posters got banned eventually. Often times theres things u should close your eyes on. And we not talking about blatant spamming/bming, people get banned for many more reasons problem with TL is that mods dotn think twice before banning someone, its just too casual
On October 24 2008 04:04 Kwark wrote: Go read the gg.net forums then tell us banning doesn't make a forum better. The moderation weeds out the people who have nothing to contribute but feel like doing it anyway and keeps the rest of us making quality posts. There's no point in anyone doing anything for tl if the community sucks. Banning not only improves (or prevents) the posts of the bad it also encourages the good posters to contribute.
On October 26 2008 17:56 banged wrote: honestly i think this forum specifically lost a lot of its flavor by banning some charismatic users, i.e. Chibi or w/e his name was. How do u get banned from a bw website for being a pedophile? It was mentioned above that many old posters got banned eventually. Often times theres things u should close your eyes on. And we not talking about blatant spamming/bming, people get banned for many more reasons problem with TL is that mods dotn think twice before banning someone, its just too casual
So you don't think people should be banned for posting perverted pictures of children every now and again? I mean, I'm also saddened to see someone with a 7000 post count banned, but the fact of the matter is that there are certain forms of behaviour that just aren't acceptable, regardless of the topic of the forum. Furthermore, if Chibi had kept his opinions to himself on the matter, no-one needed ever know. It was the fact that he flaunted it constantly that got him banned.
On October 26 2008 01:34 Kallepettersen wrote: hm I dont really get the concept of banning, especially the extreme forms it has taken on tl.net. Imo a forum is to voice your opinion and read the opinion of others, I dont wanna socialize or "build a reputation" on a damn internet forum. People who judge the content of a post by the postcount of the poster are beyond help anyway imo.
Thats why I got banned like 3 times already, I dont care about postcount and voice my opinion even If I know the majority of users will dislike it. I didnt really flame either. Last ban I called Idra ignorant for thinking pro gamer muta micro is learnable by everyone in 2 days. Even If I had no reason at all other than Idras general attitude to call him ignorant I hardly see anything wrong with it, Its kind of retarded if someone with 5000 posts can run around and behave like an ass and when you name him "ignorant" for a specific thing he said, you get banned. I proceeded to ask Chill if he uses 2 hat mut or 3 hat mut more often nowadays, instead of an answer I got a ban. I didnt really mean it in an offensive way, just was curious cus Chill seems to think 2 hat mut is superior to 3 hat mut so I wanted to know If he already follows his own strategic belief. Others in the same thread called me asshole, a far more serious insult imo, but hey its ok to flame some low post user if the majority dislikes him, nobody got banned for that of course.
The account before that I got banned because I told carnac he doesnt have to behave like a nerd, just because he was on a nerd school (I was on the same school, so just trust me when I say its true, its a special school). I didnt just tell him that out of the blue and it also wasnt really meant as an insult, I just posted it because obviously he had been at home watching the euro soccer quarter and semifinal with Germany in front of his conputer, which is just a really nerdy thing to do in Germany, where soccer is sooo big.
If I had sucked dick for 2500 posts I could go ahead and flame everyone out of "fun" like Inc or Idra or even Rekrul do, but since I dont care and dont really want to flame senseless I am fine by posting whatever I think is appropriate and getting banned for it over and over again, because some people just cant stand to hear a bit of provocative criticism.
On October 24 2008 15:31 Physician wrote: - of course at times people will refuse to follow common social rules and leave a forum no other recourse but to ban and exclude - but I will argue that banning ultimately is failure for any forum aspiring growth and developement.. I know it might be hard concept to follow through for some but you can actually do without banning in the vast majority of cases simply by using other approaches that promote more positive and inclusive attirbutes in all of us.. - anyway the main problem with banning is not with banning itself.. banning is nothing more than just one more forum moderation tool.. the real problem with banning is with its application: if you have a retard moderator, banning will always be a negative influence on the forum and will only hurt the forum in the long run etc.. banning is as good or as bad as the moderator's wisdom and criteria doing the banning.. (in fact good moderators usually moderate by setting a higher example and tend to avoid banning unless left with no other option).
Your talking as if we are a society. We aren't. In the long term for society yes I would agree with this, but banning is a faster and easier short term solution.
On October 26 2008 01:34 Kallepettersen wrote: hm I dont really get the concept of banning, especially the extreme forms it has taken on tl.net. Imo a forum is to voice your opinion and read the opinion of others, I dont wanna socialize or "build a reputation" on a damn internet forum. People who judge the content of a post by the postcount of the poster are beyond help anyway imo.
Thats why I got banned like 3 times already, I dont care about postcount and voice my opinion even If I know the majority of users will dislike it. I didnt really flame either. Last ban I called Idra ignorant for thinking pro gamer muta micro is learnable by everyone in 2 days. Even If I had no reason at all other than Idras general attitude to call him ignorant I hardly see anything wrong with it, Its kind of retarded if someone with 5000 posts can run around and behave like an ass and when you name him "ignorant" for a specific thing he said, you get banned. I proceeded to ask Chill if he uses 2 hat mut or 3 hat mut more often nowadays, instead of an answer I got a ban. I didnt really mean it in an offensive way, just was curious cus Chill seems to think 2 hat mut is superior to 3 hat mut so I wanted to know If he already follows his own strategic belief. Others in the same thread called me asshole, a far more serious insult imo, but hey its ok to flame some low post user if the majority dislikes him, nobody got banned for that of course.
The account before that I got banned because I told carnac he doesnt have to behave like a nerd, just because he was on a nerd school (I was on the same school, so just trust me when I say its true, its a special school). I didnt just tell him that out of the blue and it also wasnt really meant as an insult, I just posted it because obviously he had been at home watching the euro soccer quarter and semifinal with Germany in front of his conputer, which is just a really nerdy thing to do in Germany, where soccer is sooo big.
If I had sucked dick for 2500 posts I could go ahead and flame everyone out of "fun" like Inc or Idra or even Rekrul do, but since I dont care and dont really want to flame senseless I am fine by posting whatever I think is appropriate and getting banned for it over and over again, because some people just cant stand to hear a bit of provocative criticism.
I guarantee this didn't happen. If it did, post your AKA so i can get to the bottom of it.
On October 26 2008 01:34 Kallepettersen wrote: hm I dont really get the concept of banning, especially the extreme forms it has taken on tl.net. Imo a forum is to voice your opinion and read the opinion of others, I dont wanna socialize or "build a reputation" on a damn internet forum. People who judge the content of a post by the postcount of the poster are beyond help anyway imo.
Thats why I got banned like 3 times already, I dont care about postcount and voice my opinion even If I know the majority of users will dislike it. I didnt really flame either. Last ban I called Idra ignorant for thinking pro gamer muta micro is learnable by everyone in 2 days. Even If I had no reason at all other than Idras general attitude to call him ignorant I hardly see anything wrong with it, Its kind of retarded if someone with 5000 posts can run around and behave like an ass and when you name him "ignorant" for a specific thing he said, you get banned. I proceeded to ask Chill if he uses 2 hat mut or 3 hat mut more often nowadays, instead of an answer I got a ban. I didnt really mean it in an offensive way, just was curious cus Chill seems to think 2 hat mut is superior to 3 hat mut so I wanted to know If he already follows his own strategic belief. Others in the same thread called me asshole, a far more serious insult imo, but hey its ok to flame some low post user if the majority dislikes him, nobody got banned for that of course.
The account before that I got banned because I told carnac he doesnt have to behave like a nerd, just because he was on a nerd school (I was on the same school, so just trust me when I say its true, its a special school). I didnt just tell him that out of the blue and it also wasnt really meant as an insult, I just posted it because obviously he had been at home watching the euro soccer quarter and semifinal with Germany in front of his conputer, which is just a really nerdy thing to do in Germany, where soccer is sooo big.
If I had sucked dick for 2500 posts I could go ahead and flame everyone out of "fun" like Inc or Idra or even Rekrul do, but since I dont care and dont really want to flame senseless I am fine by posting whatever I think is appropriate and getting banned for it over and over again, because some people just cant stand to hear a bit of provocative criticism.
If you would have followed banhistory on TL you would have seen ppl like Idra and Inc banned too, so you see sucking dicks even up to 10k does not help . If you got a ban from Carn you really did a good job, since its normaly really hard to force that. If you do not want to socialize on forums what are your reasons then?
Your guestion whether PERMAbanning is worth it is a better one than the one this topic began with. The original thesis of this topic was that bans are "pointless" which is utterly easy to refute.
But you have taken the topic's name and maybe some of the responses and recovered maybe a real objection to bans; you have recovered a real question: what are bans accomplishing? Sure they aren't pointless, but what are they doing? How long do they need to be to do this? Are they excessive, i.e. can we get the same result with less severity, or can we improve our results? once we admit what the bans are for, we can then aim for maximum results.
Instead we see a lot of excuses. "Rights-based" explanations. For instance Kwark says the analogy between permaban and the death penalty fails, because while you have a right to life, you don't have a right to teamliquid. This is a bad analogy itself. You don't have rights; they are fictions, written fictions that powerful people may or may not follow. In this respect any documentation TL offers is similar, be it a guide or a ten commandments or what have you. In reality they don't have to follow them, all that exists is the power--the U.S. government can come and kill you right now and your rights have nothing to do with whether that is possible or not. Rights are promises, though, and that's where the analogy is somewhat true. While in the U.S. you are promised to be able to do certain things or not have some things done to you, TL makes no promises. Perhaps that is what "it is our house" really means. TL promises you nothing. We can speculate as to why but that would just be insulting and more excuses would ensue.
But I think niteReloaded's analogy is more right than Kwark gave credit for. When you kill someone as a punishment, they are destroyed; they can act and speak no more. They cannot change or earn or prove themselves; they can't reform. 10 years 20 years 50 years? No chance. They could win a nobel prize, discover the cure for cancer, find God, w/e, you don't care what they can or will do--they are over, FOREVER. That's the death penalty; it's permanent. So I think this is similar to a permaban. Let's admit the similarity.
I have been banned from TL for several years. Do any of my bans warrant weeks let alone months let alone years? That's the wrong question to ask. It's not about punishment, because as we see in the u.s. punishment hardly does anything. The question is, have I been given a chance to reform? have i been told what needs to change, and been given a chance to show that i could do it? No, because I'm not worth the effort. No one is worth the effort. Ban them for a billion years and throw away the key.
So anyways, the question is, what is the ban trying to accomplish? Deter me from making my bad posts? Okay, that works. But if your broader goal is to increase the quality of the site, I think you are not maximizing your gains. you're throwing the baby away with the bathwater. Temp bans give people a chance to show you they've changed. But in many cases I think people are perm banned right now when a temp ban would have been better. And furthermore people may be temp banned or perm banned without it ever being clear what they should do differently. Imagine you are locked up (similar to a ban because you are taken out of the ability to parcitipate in society, to act, etc.) but not told why, other than maybe "don't be a dumbass." Or maybe you were told "don't act like this" and shown a video of your entire day. that is literally what a lot of bans are like. now maybe you're let out of jail in a week, a month, three months. in such cases you really don't know wtf happened. and if you try to find out, odds are that path will get your ass banned again if you get pissed off at the arrogance and disrespect you are bound to receive, not to mention the snide responses by people who didn't even read what you wrote. and of course in many cases you won't be let out at all. you can write and write but the truth is, the people keeping you out won't spend 8 seconds to think about why you should be kept out let alone tell you or anyone who is willing to ask.
So the question is, what's the goal here? If it's to get some emotional release by fucking with people at the expense of your site's (forum) quality (amount of quality contributions), I think it's successful. But if, for instance, forum quality comes first, this is a huge waste not putting a cap on how long bans are. Bans should never be so long. Bans should start short and get longer with each repeat offense, making it clear what they did wrong at each step. Then you would maximally reform posters rather than, throwing them away and having this constant cycle of bad people on their 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th account, who honestly don't always know exactly what they were doing wrong, but are guessing and probably over-correcting themselves--withhold much good content because it might be what got them banned, when it really wasnt.
that's another issue. a lot of the content that is closed/banned doesn't really seem to be that threatening to the site. people that made bad topics or pointless responses all day long seem to be promoted rather than banned. bans are given to the people who take the time to get involved in discussions and ultimately have a few choice words for trolls and idiots who use TL like a poor man's youtube. I think it leaves TL a pretty dull place and honestly the majority of smart people i've seen here over the years feel the same way, but of course this isn't true because the new users don't see it and, well ...
i think i've written enough.. niteReloaded is right though. What's the goal of the permaban vs. a long, longer temp ban? Serious, why are all my accounts banned for life, why not 5 years, 10 years, 20 years? i honestly think it's just a lack of effort, lack of critical thinking, or my bans would be shorter than infinite.
Feuerbach out :/ "song before the lesson, kids like that"
Just kidding. You can IP ban people on TL right? Even if someone felt the need to create accounts over an over again to troll forums you could shut them down anyways. I feel bad when I get told I'm dumb on TL I don't think I would come back if I got banned. (plz don't test it lol)
Yeah zatic, my aka is diehilde. I got banned for this post
omfg carnac ur sad! i know u were on the christopherus school ike me, so youre somewhat bound to be sad but come on! u dont HAVE to be a nerd! GTFO on the streets for the finals and if I see one more German posting on TL instead of being in the streets/bars to watch the game for the final hes officially the saddest individual on earth!
A) I was drunk cus I had just watched Germany vs Turkey Semi-Final in the city. B) I was only teasing Carnac to make him go out on the streets for the finals, obviously this post was only directed at him so you cant understand it if you dont know the Christopherus school, which I am sure none of you do. I thought he could take some teasing but no I got banned. I then proceeded to not post for like 3 or 4 months because I was sure it was just a temp ban. After that time I realized I really got perm-banned for that so I made a new account and lost a ton of respect for tl.net. Also Zatic if you really think it was worth it, show me a post of mine where I go ahead and flame like a madman or shit like that. Almost all my posts in a serious discussion were long, thought out arguments, although many people disagreed with them, I never really insulted people in a harsh way. I even read the 10 commandments, you will hardly see any post in all caps by me , while I often see "respected" posters go apeshit in all caps just because their favorite player just pulled a great play or stuff like that.
Now my 2nd aka was damenmofa to answer your question Chill. Here is what I got banned for:
On October 19 2008 18:43 Chill wrote: I think 2 Hatch Muta is a fundamentally better build, but 3 Hatch is safer.
na, only if u have progamer muta micro
every serious korean zerg(and most t's and p's cuz its fun to mess around with), amateur and pro alike has 'progamer muta micro' its not that hard. foreigners just refuse to sit down on a micro map for 2 days and learn it.
2 hat muta gets almost equal play with 3 hat given some of the new maps are really hard for standard zvt play. chupung and destination in particular.
wow ur being ignorant, but thats nothing new I guess... not everybody has 300 apm and Im sure more than one foreigner has sat down on a micro map for more than 2 days..
I still stand by that point and would call anybody, even manifesto himself, ignorant if he states that the lack of 'progamer muta micro' derives from foreigners unwillingness to "sit down on a micro map for 2 days and learn it". I also quoted Idra and therefore brought evidence to my "flame" as some poster in this thread requested to do if you wanna "flame". Maybe it also was because of this post later in the thread
On October 20 2008 02:40 Chill wrote: Stop derailing this shit.
Obviously we're talking about Koreans, since foreigner play emulates professional play, and obviously every Korea has progamer Mutalisk micro. We are seeing a swing from standard 3 Hatch play to 2 Hatch and Kwanro openings. I'm saying in the hands of a perfect player, 2 Hatch is a fundamentally better opening; so as players improve the push should be towards 2 Hatch.
yeah if were talking about koreans and a "perfect player" (lol), 2 hatch muta is the better build. Unfortunately you will still lose against a "perfect player" playing T, cus he will anticipate your muta movements and build enough static defense just in time... For foreigners, the very large majority will still fare better with 3 hatch muta, or do you play 2 hat muta more often than 3 hat muta nowadays chill? also that zoler guy annoys me, running around calling people names isnt exactly what id expect from a tl.net poster, and on top of that every post he makes just screams low level player 8[ 100 apm for muta micro maybe, but not for muta micro and flawless base management dude t.t
I was just expressing that I strongly disagree with the concept of a "perfect player" in Broodwar, but I didnt wanna delve deeper into that topic because it would have been "derailing the thread". Nobody is perfect, especially not in broodwar, is all I can say. I proceeded to ask the question I already outlined in my other post. I think this indeed was punished with a tempban "only", but you may turn it into a permban if you really think it helps and my posts are completely inacceptable. So I made the work for you to find out these posts, now please explain me why people call me asshole and that is obviously regarded less disrespectful than the posts I made? Why do they run around and continue to throw around "retard" and "assholes"? Is insulting less of a bannable offensive than being disliked by many?
edit: I just read zulu_nation_8s post and wow he is so right. I never see people getting banned for posting oneliner after oneliner, swimming in the mainstream just to up their postcount or because they have no own opinion at all, yet when you really get into discussions and probably have opinions that differ from the mainstream you risk being banned soon. Also he Is right in the point u never even get a post about your ban or anything makes it pretty much ineffective. When I first got banned I waited for months before I created another acc. I naturally assumed I would get unbanned sometime soon or at least receive a pm about it, because it was my first ban ever and I obviously had no clue how banning works on tl.net until then. It would have been much easier to just tell my why I got banned and how long I will be banned but just permbanning like that seemed ridiculous to me. As zulu_nation said, all this permbanning has made tl.net a much duller place over the years. Read his post again and again, cus he really put it better than I ever could have. I also dont think permbanning left and right in that fashion is the way to achieve quality posts and posters, but rather contributes to the contrary.
people like to be respected, just like what you are doing right now, you are asking everybody for respect. But you are doing it wrong, pointing a finger on others will not get you anywhere. it takes a bigger man to say "I am sorry I will respect others from now on, and if disagreement comes up I will not flame people with words such as "retard" "assholes" or "ignorance" without evidence or justifications"
So why don't you show others respect and they will do the same for you ? This is the lesson Zulu's talking about this is a chance for you to show reform and show everybody you can be respectful.
I feel like the fact that OP has come to the realization that there may be a reason for banning means he's answered his own question. But just in case... There is no way to provide positive reinforcement for good posts, even though we'd all like to see more of them, and there is no way to provide negative reinforcement either, because mods can't send us hugs and kisses. Thus, punishment is the only 'teaching' tool available to the mods, and it sucks for those who have received these bans but that doesn't mean they weren't deserved, and the results speak for themselves. Take a look at any unmoderated internet forum and compare the percentage of useful posts to this place. I'm probably one of the lowest post counts here who has never been banned (I didn't start playing starcraft until like 4 months ago when my friend showed me this site), but in my short time on this site I can already tell how much the quality depends on the quick but reasonable action of the mods. Call me a brownnoser if you like but if you try and take a look as an unbiased noob outsider, you'll quickly come to the same conclusion. And check out clazziquai's post... even more evidence that some people get the message from bans.
most of them won't try and come in again... so i actually see a lot of point in banning people
i noe that lot of times stupid ppl will write good scripts and just make like friggin 100 accnts or w.e amd try to spam a website and once they get banned they move on... however not banning that kind of person is just stupid... and waste of forum space
On October 28 2008 08:41 ish0wstopper wrote: incontrol gets banned all the time and hes still an asshole
but hes an awesome asshole
hey hey heyyyyyyyyyy
I don't get banned all the time. I've had a few temp bans but you can count them on 1 hand and spread that over the 5 years I have been here that aint too bad imo!
On October 28 2008 08:41 ish0wstopper wrote: incontrol gets banned all the time and hes still an asshole
but hes an awesome asshole
hey hey heyyyyyyyyyy
I don't get banned all the time. I've had a few temp bans but you can count them on 1 hand and spread that over the 5 years I have been here that aint too bad imo!
On October 28 2008 08:41 ish0wstopper wrote: incontrol gets banned all the time and hes still an asshole
but hes an awesome asshole
hey hey heyyyyyyyyyy
I don't get banned all the time. I've had a few temp bans but you can count them on 1 hand and spread that over the 5 years I have been here that aint too bad imo!