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United States24342 Posts
[Guide] Sleep and Insomnia
This guide comes in three parts. Part 1 goes in this post. Parts 2 and 3 will follow in subsequent posts.
edit: I have added a section on shift work: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=96030
Part 1: General Information about Sleep and Sleeping Problems
Introduction:
My goal in writing this guide is to provide tl with useful information on a topic that is grossly misunderstood. Sleep quite obviously affects everyone. Furthermore, about one third of adults experience insomnia. Recently Consumer Reports has claimed about one half of adults report problems with sleep. After pain and headaches, it is the most frequent health complaint. And yet, doctors are not trained to diagnose or treat insomnia! It has become so ubiquitous that they dismiss it as a normal part of life. You can probably blame this to a severe lack of funding for research on insomnia until very recently. Fortunately, recent studies have been allowing for many breakthroughs in developing treatment for those with sleeping problems. This guide will be useful for most readers including many of those who don't consider themselves to have symptoms of insomnia.
I recently begun researching this topic (I have had sleeping problems myself for a long time) and am amazed by the work of Gregg D. Jacobs. He is one of the only people I've ever found to actually have research based answers to all the 'fact or fiction' questions on sleep that are poorly answered by conventional wisdom. His work has convinced me that most (if not all) people can greatly improve their sleeping problems on their own without the use of drugs or medical experts. This guide will provide you with many of the tools necessary to begin this process.
Why a drug-free approach to treating insomnia?
Medical science has yet to find a successful long-term treatment for insomnia. Sleeping pills can be useful when used correctly, but are generally considered unsafe and have side effects that outweigh their benefits in the long term. Until recently they were fairly dangerous (addiction, etc), and they stop working over time. Less obviously, they weaken the belief that insomnia can be cured or reduced by non-external factors. However, the most important problem with sleeping pills as a permanent solution to insomnia is that they don't treat the causes of insomnia. Once you stop taking sleeping pills, control over your sleep schedule will return to a level equal to or worse what it was before you started taking the pills. I won't go on a tangent about how medication is over-prescribed (at least in the USA) but you can be sure the drug companies play a role in the development of our current culture where sleeping pills are prescribed incorrectly by doctors on a regular basis. Drug-based approaches to curing patients are generally acceptable for acute and infectious illnesses, but they prove to be less effective than drugless approaches when treating today's chronic health problems.
What about psychotherapy? Will that help me?
Not only is psychotherapy expensive and time-consuming, but it is usually ineffective in treating insomnia. This is because insomnia is not usually caused by psychological problems. Furthermore, wrongfully believing that your insomnia is caused by problems of the psyche induces feelings of helplessness and lowered self-esteem which can contribute towards increasing the severity of insomnia symptoms. Most importantly, there is no scientific proof that psychotherapy is effective for treating insomnia. Of course, there may be times when psychotherapy is appropriate, so keep that in mind.
What about over the counter sleep aids?
While common name-brand medications like Tylenol PM, Excedrin PM, and Anacin PM are regarded as much safer than prescription sleeping pills, there is little scientific evidence that these pills are actually effective. However, even if they are effective at helping an insomniac fall asleep, they suffer from the same problems as prescription medicine of wearing off over time and not treating the source (cause) of the insomnia. When you stop taking the pills you will revert back to your tendencies to have poor sleep.
Another boom in OTC sleep aids was found about a decade ago with pharmacies selling melatonin. "Melatonin Madness" struck with a force rarely seen during any typical self-help craze. However, the claims about the effectiveness of melatonin as a treatment for insomnia were highly exaggerated. Apparently, only a few studies were used to back the drug companies' claims, and those studies were, in some (if not all) cases conducted by employees of the drug companies. There were just as many (if not more) scientific studies which showed that melatonin is not effective in the long term for the treatment of insomnia. A little misinformation goes a long way. One interesting aside: melatonin was popular because it was cheap, available over the counter, and promoted as natural. This 'natural' product was practically a hoax which put millions of innocent consumers at risk. Perhaps natural is a word that gets misused or abused too regularly.
So far nothing seems to actually work in treating insomnia. What DOES work?
There is actual scientific evidence (recently) that effective drug-free treatment of insomnia is possible. It focuses on addressing the causes of the insomnia. I am basing my suggestions off of a program conducted at the Harvard Medical School over the course of ten years which has shown great success in treating insomniacs. They claim that 100% of their patients reported improved sleep, and 75% claim to have become normal sleepers. While this could be slightly exaggerated, I have confidence that these results are genuinely indicative of leaps and bounds of improvement, and great success in the discovery of effective treatments for insomnia.
What are some techniques that are helpful?
- View insomnia as a learned problem that can unlearned
- Change/prevent negative and/or stressful thoughts about sleep
- Improve stress management
- Elicit the relaxation response: an inborn biological response that allows for the voluntary production of brain-wave patterns that induce sleep
- Strengthen the brain's sleep rhythm by reducing excessive time in bed and getting out of bed at the same time every day (when possible)
- Receive exposure to bright sunlight and specific times of the day
- Exercise at specific times of the day
- Unlearn habits of trying to sleep
- Use naps to boost mood/performance
- Develop a sense of control over sleep*
*much more important than you might think
Teach me about sleep.
Simply learning about sleep/insomnia and realizing all the erroneous things you thought you knew can be an effective treatment for insomnia. For many patients this is not sufficient in treating insomnia, but I personally felt much better about sleep simply by being less ignorant about the topic.
Sleep is not merely a constant state of inactivity. It comes in five distinct stages which each serve different purposes. Recent research has allowed us to unlock the mystery of sleep (to an extent) with the use of EEG recordings which measures electrical activity in the brain. Sleep is much more dynamic than was previously believed. For a healthy sleeper (or simply during a good night's sleep) you begin by closing your eyes in a 'relaxed wakefulness' which triggers brain-wave patterns referred to as 'alpha.' You are not truly asleep but you reach a state of physical and mental relaxation. After a few minutes in this state, you drift into Stage 1 sleep. This is the transitional state between being awake and being truly asleep. You are both relaxed and drowsy. Your muscle tension lessens, your breathing and heart rate slow, your body temperature drops, and slow eye movements occur (this is not REM). A slower brain-wave pattern is generated, called 'theta.' This state of sleep could be considered akin to daydreaming.
Has anyone ever accused you of falling asleep during a boring lecture? Have you ever seen another person "drowsing"? If awoken, the person will quite likely deny that they were actually asleep, and might just claim that they were drifting off. Stage 1 sleep is easy to awaken from, and is not true sleep. After a few minutes in this state you enter the conveniently named Stage 2 sleep. This is a deeper sleep where you are more detached from the outside world. The brain alternates between attempts to maintain awareness and 'turning off.' This stage is still fairly light as we can be easily awakened from it.
It will take about thirty to forty five minutes of Stage 2 sleep before you can continue to stages 3 and 4. They are what we consider deep sleep which is a very important term that will come up again and again. It is harder to awaken from this stage. After another forty five minutes or so, we revert back to State 2 (sleep works in cycles). A few more minutes pass and then you enter dream sleep. I won't go into detail about the dreams themselves (that has occurred many times on tl I believe) but you can rest assured that whoever told you REM (rapid-eye movement) occurred during dream sleep was correct! REM is not fully understood, but it seems to be the case that eye movements track what is going on in dreams to some extent. Despite still being soundly asleep, the body's systems become active again during this state. Heart rate, blood pressure, etc, all increase and become irregular. Measured brain activity during this state is similar to being awake! An interesting aside: penile erection in males (and clitoral engorgement in females for the three or so of you who are reading this) occurs during REM. This is probably a physiological arousal rather than a sexual one. When testing for impotence, REM sleep proves to be very useful. If penile erection occurs during REM sleep, then the impotence is most likely due to psychological rather than biological causes. Other than this, we cannot move when we dream because our muscles are paralyzed. Dreams seem to be the result of an active brain in a paralyzed body.
This cycle I've outlined repeats every ninety minutes or so. In a good night's sleep, you will progress through about six cycles. Deep sleep, like interest on a loan, tends to be front-loaded. You get more dense deep sleep in the early parts of the night, and less towards the morning hours. As the night progresses, deep sleep diminishes and periods of REM become longer and more predominant. I personally have noticed this on good nights of sleep. Since sleep is generally lighter in the latter half, early wakeups are more likely to occur in the early morning hours. Most people actually wake up for a brief moment in between cycles, but fall back asleep immediately and don't remember the waking.
Another question worth answering is, why do we sleep? This is still grossly understood by modern science. One logical explanation is that our ancestors slept because it forced them to be inactive at times when it was disadvantageous to be awake (too dark to perform daily operations like hunt/gather). Sleep also diverts some blood from the brain which allows muscular regeneration to quicken. Your immune system also is more active when you sleep, which might explain why sick people tend to sleep more than healthy people.
Deep sleep is the most vital stage (3 and 4). We are more likely to get deep sleep than REM sleep (since it's front-loaded) and are most inactive during this stage. There is evidence that deep sleep is the stage of sleep that is most likely to be 'made up' if it has been missed in a prior night. REM is also important, though. This is the stage where we are believed to store/process much of the information that we have gained throughout the day.
Another important thing to learn about the workings of sleep is the relationship it has to body temperature. Despite what you may have learned, the body's temperature does not stay at about 98.6 degrees F (37 C). Temperature is lowest in the early morning hours, and then begins to climb before you wake up. It continues to increase until mid-afternoon, and then dips (think siestas). It rises again and peaks at about 6pm (assuming you are on a normal sleep schedule). It then declines steadily until its daily low at about 4am. The variation (if you are healthy) is about one and a half degrees total throughout the day. You might have heard this referred to as the 'circadian rhythm.' It is linked to our daily activity, alertness, and sleepiness. As you can tell, we tend to be more alert/active when body temperature is higher, and more relaxed or asleep when body temperature is lower. 'Night people' tend to experience a peak in body temperature later in the day, and therefore perform better in the evening. Morning people experience the opposite, an early increase in body temperature, and are more active/alert in the morning. As you may already know, sunlight plays a major role in the regulation of this cycle. When the eyes detect light, melatonin decreases, and body temperature increases. When eyes are in a darker setting, melatonin increases, and the body temperature declines.
Another thing you want to understand is that the human brain has two systems which dictate how/when we sleep. There is a wakefulness system that dominates for our sixteen waking hours in a normal sleeper, and a sleeping system which dominates for the remaining eight hours, or so. Even when we are asleep, our wakefulness system is partially active, and so we are never truly detached from the outside world. You might be able to sleep through some noises easily, and be awoken by others. This is the result of your brain's wakefulness system knowing (rightly or wrongly) what outside cues to respond to even while you are asleep.
Aging plays a role on how we sleep. As we get older, we tend to get less sleep. Also, sleep quality tends to decline. Eventually it gets bad enough that naps are required to compensate (old people). I'm not going to explore this topic further since most readers of this guide are not elderly people (sorry physician).
What are the types of Insomnia?
1) Problems falling asleep 2) Waking up during the night or early morning unable to fall back asleep 3) Poor quality of sleep
How do I know if I qualify for #1? #2?
Generally, people with 'sleep-onset insomnia' lie in bed for, on average, an hour and a quarter in order to fall asleep. 'Sleep-maintenance insomnia' occurs when you wake during the night and lie unable to sleep for approximately thirty minutes (or more). You could experience one, two, or possibly all three of these types of insomnia, and your insomnia can change over time. In order to truly be diagnosed as an insomniac, you have to not just meet these requirements, but you also have to perceive detrimental consequences from disturbed sleep that extend into your day, such a irritability, fatigue, drowsiness, and impaired productivity or performance. If you have trouble falling asleep but are fine during the day, then you are simply someone who needs less sleep.
Do men and women suffer equally from insomnia?
No. Aside from affecting elderly people more than younger people, females are more likely to suffer from insomnia than males. Aside from hormonal differences, mere differences in the willingness to acknowledge insomnia between men and women could be a strong factor.
I'm an insomniac. Sum me up in a couple of sentences.
Most likely, your wakefulness and sleep systems are improperly balanced: the former is too strong, and the latter too weak. Your daily variations in body temperature probably are not as large as in a healthy sleeper. When you try to sleep, you fail (due to not being physiologically prepared) and think about your inability to sleep, which triggers further inability to sleep. Thinking triggers your wakefulness system. If your mind is racing when you fail to fall asleep, don't assume it is the cause of your problem... it could actually be the result of you trying to fall asleep. Don't blame yourself for being unable to turn off your mind (if you ever have).
What if I occasionally exhibit symptoms of insomnia?
That's fine. Occasional sleeping problems are normal and can be trigger by regular life events such as the loss of a loved one, divorce, or loss of a job. This insomnia usually goes away after a few days or weeks, but it can degrade into a long-term case. If this happens to you, you become a chronic insomniac. Generally, if you are worried about the sleep loss from temporary insomnia, then you are more likely to slip into a vicious cycle. Many people try to take actions to prevent this from happening, and actually exacerbate the problem. Note these common responses to insomnia that can be detrimental to your recovery:
- Going to bed early and/or sleeping later to 'catch up' on sleep
- Believing that you can sleep if you try harder to sleep
- Relaxing in bed by reading or watching television
- Taking naps
- Using alcohol to fall asleep or caffeine to stay awake after feeling fatigued by insomnia
- Reducing physical activity due to fatigue caused by insomnia
Do people with mental health problems tend to be insomniacs?
Insomnia is a frequent symptom of many psychiatric disorders, including depression. Insomniacs are also, on average, more likely to exhibit depression and anxiety than normal sleepers. However, insomnia patients don't suffer from any more depression or anxiety than patients with other chronic illnesses. Furthermore, in many cases where a patient is an insomniac and suffering from depression, it is found that the depression is a consequence of the insomnia rather than the cause.
Tell me more about sleeping pills and other sleep aids.
I am prepared to talk more about this topic upon request (there are actually more safe sleeping pills than there used to be) but it is not a necessary discussion for helping insomniacs. I've already identified medicinal sleep aids as a poor approach to sleep problems. If you want to learn more about sleep aids, let me know.
Can my bedroom become a learned cue for wakefulness?
Yes. Doing pretty much anything in your bedroom/bed that triggers your wakefulness system can be detrimental to your sleep patterns. Doing work, watching tv, or discussing emotionally charged topics (such as Idra's opinion of foreigners) while in bed can make it harder for you to fall asleep. To illustrate this principle with an extreme example, imagine if you experienced daily whippings while lying in your bed. Your mind would associate the bed with the horrible experience, and you would feel uncomfortable and unable to fall asleep in your bed. The same thing applies to everyday situations.
How important are my beliefs about how I sleep?
Very. Negative stressful thoughts about sleep exacerbate insomnia. You need to learn how to recognize these distorted or overly negative thoughts and replace them with realistic and positive thoughts. This will relax you and improve your sleep.
I know exercise is important. Why?
Daily exercise helps to maintain your daily body temperature rhythm. A sedentary lifestyle will flatten out your body temperature variations and make you suffer from symptoms of insomnia. There have been lots of discussions about exercise on tl and I will refrain from going into more detail about how to exercise effectively.
What's the problem with alcohol?
Ask yourself these questions:
- Have you ever felt you should cut down on your drinking?
- Have people annoyed you by criticizing your drinking?
- Have you ever felt bad our guilty about drinking?
- Have you ever had a drink first thing in the morning to steady your nerves or get rid of a hangover?
If you answered yes to any of these questions then you should consider receiving professional evaluation and treatment. Although alcohol can sometimes serve as a short-term sleep aid, it suffers from the same problem as sleep medication in that it doesn't provide a long-term solution. It also often contributes to improper sleep which can trigger early wake-ups. Additionally, you've undoubtedly heard of the dangers of alcohol abuse.
Nobody on tl smokes of course, but can smoking matter?
Yes. Smoking before sleep or during a wake-up can keep you awake. Nicotine is generally not your friend when you are trying to sleep. Smokers have been found to have more sleep problems than nonsmokers, however that does not demonstrate causation. It has been found, however, that smokers who quit smoking usually experience improved sleep.
What sleep environment do I need?
You need a room that is not routinely disturbed by noises, and is set to a comfortable temperature. The room should be dark (unless you need to sleep with the light on like GTR) and you should use a comfortable bed that is large enough for your partner, if necessary.
Does stress affect sleep and cause insomnia?
Yes, it can. Those who cope well with stress tend not to have a problem, but others who have negative emotional and physical responses to stress experience disturbed sleep, health, and well-being. To put it bluntly, stress and insomnia are inextricably linked: insomnia often begins in response to a stressful life event, it is one of the first warning signs of excessive stress, and many chronic insomniacs have more trouble sleeping after a stressful day.
Can medical problems affect sleep?
Well yes, of course. But even when you have a very good reason for why you are having trouble, your thoughts and behaviors still play a role in how well you sleep. Doctors can help you with physical problems, but you need to subscribe to the ideas of this guide in order to win the mental battle. I am not going into detail about physical and other health problems that can affect sleep since you should consult your doctor about these types or problems (for example, asthma or sleep apnea).
Do a lot of people on tl have Delayed Phase Disorder?
Probably. Delayed Phase Disorder is the tendency to be unable to fall asleep until 3am or 4am, but then get a good 7-8 hours of sleep. The opposite can also occur where you have trouble staying awake past 8pm (elderly people for example). These problems can be treated with artificial bright-light boxes that simulate the sun and adjust your body temperature cycle to a more appropriate time. However, bright-light boxes are not required. This is especially true on bright mornings where you can go outside in order to jump-start your wakefulness system (just don't wear sunglasses).
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United States24342 Posts
Part 2: Changing your Thoughts and Behaviors
If thinking can cause insomnia, can it also cure it?
Yes. That's one of the main ways to treat insomnia: changing how you think about sleep.
Tell me about the Placebo Effect.
First consider this case from a study conducted in the 1950s on the placebo effect: A pregnant woman was suffering from nausea and vomiting. Her doctor gave her a 'new' medication and told her it was effective. He said it would quickly relieve her symptoms. Within 20 minutes, the woman's symptoms had subsided. Little did she know she had taken Ipecac, a medication that induces vomiting! It was the woman's belief in the drug that had relieved her symptoms. This is why new medications are tested alongside placebo pills. Many studies show that virtually all health problems improve when given a placebo. The power of your mind and body as seen here can also work in your favor when treating insomnia. Belief in your ability to overcome it by following the guidelines of this guide will relieve the symptoms even before you adjust your everyday practices!
What are Negative Sleep Thoughts?
As you would guess, NSTs are thoughts about having trouble sleeping, or being worried about the effects of getting too little sleep. Here are some examples:
- I didn't sleep a wink last night
- I must get eight hours of sleep
- My insomnia is going to cause health problems
- I'm dreading bedtime
- Why does sleep come so easily for everyone but me?
- I feel miserable because I didn't sleep well
- How will I function today after such a horrible night of sleep?
- I can't sleep without a sleeping pill
These are often generalizations or exaggerations that misrepresent our problems. The reason why they are bad is they tend to occur when we are trying to get to sleep. They make us feel anxious and/or frustrated which triggers the stress response and therefore your wakefulness system. NSTs are generally automatic, but most importantly are often inaccurate or distorted (especially in the quite/darkness of night). NSTs seem like a natural/logical reaction to sleep problems, and yet they are 100% detrimental and only hinder your ability to sleep. One of the main purposes of this guide is to help deal with NSTs.
How can I use Cognitive Restructuring to deal with NSTs?
The goal of Cognitive Restructuring is to exchange some of your NSTs with more accurate and more positive thoughts about sleep. In turn, you will become less anxious or frustrated and will sleep better. Cognitive Restructuring is not denying insomnia or lying to yourself about it. It is simply making your views on sleep less distorted and negative.
Do I need eight hours of sleep?
The amount of sleep we need varies from person to person. However, many people think that they need to target eight hours every night, and that they will suffer the next day if they fail to get eight hours of sleep. This is, in fact a myth, as we will see. For now, let's determine if you get enough sleep already:
1) Do you need an alarm clock to wake up? 2) Do you habitually sleep late on weekends? 3) Do you frequently fall asleep during meetings, lectures, boring or sedentary activities, or while watching television?
If you can say 'no' for all three questions then congratulations, you are probably getting enough sleep already. If you are trying to get more sleep you might be aiming for more than you actually need. Some people need less than six hours of sleep each night. The most important thing to keep in mind about the eight hour sleep myth is that getting less than eight hours of sleep on a couple of nights is fine, even if your ideal sleep amount is eight hours. Your brain is much better at making up for missed sleep than you may think. Your mind and body are both also much more capable after missing some sleep than you think.
Are insomniacs good at estimating how much sleep they get?
Generally no. Insomniacs are consistently found (on average) to overestimate the time it took to fall asleep and underestimate the amount of sleep they got. When an insomniac is lying in bed unable to fall asleep their NSTs make them feel very unhappy, and time perception is altered. Recall what Einstein said: "If you are sitting on a hot stove a minute seems like an hour, but if you are doing something pleasurable an hour can seem like a minute." Altered time perception also creates a vicious cycle (as is often the case with insomnia) because believing that falling asleep is taking a long time will make it harder to fall asleep.
Talk about Sleep Loss.
Why does insomnia bother you (if you are an insomniac)? Most insomniacs will answer that they are worried it will adversely affect their daytime functioning. Not only is this view harmful, but it results from a number of popular misconceptions about the effects of sleep loss (often due to inaccurate one-sided media reports). Some sleep researchers have claimed that Americans are sleep deprived, are accumulating a dangerous 'sleep debt,' and need at least eight hours of sleep per night. But why do we never hear about all the other research which has claimed that there is no consistent scientific evidence that insomnia causes significant health problems (nobody has ever died from insomnia)? People also often attribute daytime problems to insomnia even though many other factors such as stress, exercise, nutrition, alcohol, medication, sunlight, time of year, and heredity play a much greater overall role in daytime functioning. Insomnia gets blamed way too much for things that it is not wholly responsible for (although I'll admit getting very little sleep one night can feel pretty crappy in the morning). Learning not to blame insomnia for your misfortunes will minimize NSTs and help you relax. Your sleep will improve along with your confidence in your ability to control your sleep.
If you still aren't convinced that sleep loss is much less of a problem (by itself) than you originally thought, consider this. Many sleep researchers believe (based on substantial scientific evidence) that humans have a remarkable tolerance for sleep loss (at least on a temporary basis). Studies conducted to measure the adverse effects of sleep loss on daytime performance concluded that they could not find any significant reduction in performance as a result of missed sleep. After one sleepless night, the only activities which will suffer are monotonous or sedentary tasks such as driving, or the ability to produce creative solutions to problems (When I started working full time while involved in many other things, I found myself having trouble driving in the morning without almost falling asleep at the wheel; this would not have happened if I was doing a less sedentary or monotonous activity).
But what about if I miss a lot of sleep over many nights/weeks?
People who miss a lot of sleep do not experience any major side effects aside from feeling very sleepy. Of course, feeling very sleepy can be a problem when taking a final exam! However, it is much easier to manage your NSTs when you realize that missing sleep is nowhere near as detrimental or dangerous as you previously thought.
Are you sure? What about if I miss 2-3 hours of sleep EVERY night for month after month after month? That is okay?
That's what transatlantic yacht racers do. They minimize their sleeping time to approximately five and a half hours in order to win the race. The racers are able to meet all of the challenging demands of their journey despite the reduced sleep and maintain their health throughout the race. Physicians undergo residency training with extremely long hours which often require thirty-six hour shifts responding to emergencies. Despite the extremely demanding requirements of their job they are able to work satisfactorily while receiving significantly reduced sleep.
Do insomniacs have more trouble during the day than good sleepers?
Generally no. Studies on insomniacs indicate that insomniacs do not exhibit poorer daytime performance compared to good sleepers. Insomnia generally won't impair your daytime performance or alertness (these insomniacs were generally found to average five and a half hours of sleep; this seems to be a magic number!).
Why does five and a half hours matter so much?
Put simply, we need to get our core sleep. Core sleep adds up to about five and a half hours. If you miss your core sleep, then you very well might feel more significant adverse effects during the day. Fortunately, core sleep does not have to be uninterrupted. If you get woken up in the middle of the night, you are still capable of going back to sleep and getting more core sleep (although not immediately).
Does this mean that you should panic if you realize you are going to get less than five and a half hours of sleep? Certainly not. Even if you are getting as little as three hours of sleep per night (as is the case with some demanding professions or at certain times), you can function without significant consequences (think of the Apollo 13 astronauts who slept three hours a night and yet performed the operations to get the ship back to Earth safely).
What if I miss out on some core sleep for one, or several nights?
This is very important: if you miss core sleep one night, your brain will do everything possible to get it the next night. The night after sleep loss, there will be more deep sleep and less light sleep. It becomes easier to get deep sleep when you really need it. Skipping some core sleep is like skipping breakfast or lunch... sure you generally don't want to do that but it happens sometimes and you just deal. When I first learned about the brain's ability to make up missed core sleep more effectively I became very relieved and found that I had made a big dent in my NSTs. Simply being less ignorant about what happens when you miss sleep made a big difference for me.
Talk about the effect of insomnia on daytime mood.
Although insomnia is found not to significantly affect daytime performance, it does affect your daytime mood. After missing a lot of sleep you may find yourself to be irritable, frustrated, anxious, mildly depressed, fatigued, or less motivated. Nobody wants to feel like this, of course, but did you realize that this was the most significant threat of missing sleep? Realizing that missing sleep will, at worst, affect your mood tomorrow should help you become less anxious and reduce your NSTs.
The problem is actually lessened as you learn to manage your NSTs. When you wake up, if you have negative thoughts about how your day will be, then you can expect your day to be every bit as bad as you anticipated. But if you recognize that only your mood is at risk and that you can greatly reduce the negative effects of sleep loss on your mood simply be realizing that the problems you have are relatively minor, then you will feel much better throughout the day and also better prepared to tackle sleep the next evening. We've all had trouble sleeping the night before an exciting day we were looking forward to; we should have had a worse mood due to sleep loss but we had a positive attitude in the morning which allowed us to enjoy our day with no side effects. Even on regular days we can make use of this.
How can I begin the process of Cognitive Restructuring to help reduce my NSTs?
Well, simply by reading the guide up to this point you might already be feeling better about sleep and having reduced NSTs. Of course, this is not the best you can do. If you are truly a sufferer of insomnia then you will want to make a daily effort to recognize and replace your NSTs. NSTs are automatic so identifying them is not always easy. The program used by Gregg Jacobs for treating insomniacs involves keeping a daily journal where you record and reflect on your NSTs (you can refer to his program, but you very well might not need to; this guide's goal is to help you!). Even without use of a journal you can make a conscious effort to identify NSTs and scrutinize them until you find more positive and realistic thoughts that are more appropriate. Something I found was that each NST you replace with a positive one makes it easier to continue the process of cognitive restructuring! Here are some tips:
1) Rather than think "I don't think I can fall back to sleep" a more realistic thought might be "I always fall back to sleep sooner or later" 2) Rather than think "I'm not getting as much sleep as I need" think "I need less sleep than I thought" 3) Rather than think "I already can't get 7-8 hours of sleep" think "I'll be fine as long as I get my core sleep, and even if I miss some of that I'll be able to make it up easily. All I need is a positive attitude about my ability to manage sleep and my daytime mood will not be affected that much.
Simply by making a conscious effort to reduce NSTs and replace some of them with realisitic positive thoughts, you might experience a significant improvement in sleep, and you haven't even altered your physical behavior or schedule! Of course, every patient is different, but I personally found this to be true. I remember one evening recently drifting off to sleep thinking "I'm hacking at falling asleep" which is really lame but illustrates my point.
What's next? What habits and physical changes should I focus on?
So after reading up until this point you aren't a perfect sleeper? Don't worry, we still have many ways to work in improving our sleep. The first is to recall what I said about the bedroom being a cue. Some people get into bed and their mind essentially says "oh good time for bed" and they fall asleep immediately. For other people, their mind remembers all the other times they were in that physical situation yet weren't asleep. Thus, for the latter person, the bedroom is a cue for wakefulness. There are many ways you can change your daily life to prevent this from persisting.
The first suggestion is one that you've undoubtedly heard before. Establish a regular rising time. This is not a requirement for all sleepers, but is a good way to get yourself out of a sleep rut. Just as we learned that the body temperature cycle is delicate for insomniacs (promoting establishing a consistent rising and bed time), you can also consider that time can be a strong cue that helps us know when to fall asleep and wake up. By establishing and maintaining a consistent schedule (when it is possible) we subconsciously associate 7am with the time we always wake up, and 11pm with the time we always go to bed (insert your own schedule).
The second suggestion is to use the bed only for sleep. The best case scenario is for your mind to link 'being in bed' with 'being asleep.' This is not always easy to accomplish in a short period of time, especially if you have for most of your life used your bed for activities other than sleep such as watching tv, reading, or browsing tl. Some people can perform these activities in their bed without sleep problems, but if you are an insomniac then you should avoid using your bed for activities (Gregg Jacobs has said that lovemaking is a suitable exception). Furthermore, if you are having trouble falling asleep, then long periods of lying in bed and thinking are detrimental to your recovery from insomnia. Have a light, relaxing activity that you can go to in a dimly lit room (maybe even your bedroom so long as you get out of bed) prepared while you are working on treating your insomnia that you can revert to if you have been unable to fall asleep and you are feeling uncomfortable about it. Remember, the negative thoughts you have while struggling to fall asleep induce stress and wakefulness. The fastest route to sleep may be one out of your bed. However, do not allow yourself to fall asleep somewhere else unless you want that to be your new permanent bed. As you notice improvements in your sleep through cognitive restructuring, you might find that you don't even need to have relaxing activities planned. Taking a little bit longer to fall asleep is fine if you feel comfortable with it and know that you are effectively managing your NSTs.
I'm an insomniac; should I budget more time for sleep since it's a very important thing for me to work on?
No. In fact, people with sleeping problems should consider reducing time allotted for sleep. Don't go to bed early to get a head start on sleep. Calculations such as "It takes me 2 hours to fall asleep so I better go to bed at 9 to fall asleep by 11" are not how you should be coping with insomnia. Insomniacs should never go to bed to try to escape boredom either. This isn't based in research, but I personally think a person who is trying to learn to reduce their insomnia is better off with 6 hours in bed that is mostly sleep than 8 hours in bed that earns a little bit more sleep at the cost of an hour and a half of being awake in bed. In the long run it will pay off.
How should I get ready for bed?
Keep in mind, you cannot just throw a switch and turn on your sleep system. If you are doing something stimulating or active, it will be a couple of hours before you can expect to fall asleep. You may need to avoid computer use (sucks I know) shortly before going to bed since the lighting will trigger wakefulness and inhibit sleepiness. Keep yourself in dim lighting as much as possible prior to going to bed. Don't do work at full speed and expect to sleep after that. Everyone needs to wind down and relax.
What about Napping?
Napping, like many other things with sleep, can work in your favor or against you depending on how it is used. Have you experienced a midafter-noon slump? Siesta cultures such as Spain encourage people to nap during this lull. Although this is encouraged by modern sleep research, it is often not possible in other cultures. I know I can't take a nap at my job.
Why do we feel like taking a nap at this time? It appears to be in our brain chemistry. We experience a drop in body temperature around this time. A logical explanation is that our ancestors were meant to avoid moving around in the mid-afternoon heat and naturally napped during that time to avoid overexerting themselves. Short naps also have been found to improve alertness, mood, and mental performance. The effects are greater if it follows a poor night of sleep. Just make sure the nap is no longer than forty-five minutes to avoid entering deep sleep. It also is suggested that you never nap after 4pm because that could reduce pressure for you to fall asleep that night. Even if you can't nap, a short period of rest and relaxation in the afternoon can have the same revitalizing effects without getting any actual sleep.
Tell me about Stimulus-control Techniques (more about Cues)
Have you ever eaten a large meal, walked into a movie theater, and then desired popcorn? This isn't just because popcorn smells nice. It is also because you have associated going to the movies with eating popcorn during many previous visits. There are many different stimuli that affect our mood or behavior. The one that we are focused on is how lying in bed can be a stimulus for struggling to fall asleep. How do we unlearn this? As suggested before, do not use the bedroom (or at least bed) for anything other than sleep (and sexual activity I suppose). If you use an activity in bed to help you fall asleep. limit them to twenty or thirty minutes and have a timer in place so your tv will turn off without waking you up again. Don't get into bed unless you feel drowsy. If you aren't ready for sleep, then make sure you stay away from activities that promote wakefulness. Practice identifying your own personal cues for drowsiness (such as eye lids dropping, head nodding, yawning, reading the same line in a book multiple times and not understanding it, etc) so you know when it's time to head back to bed.
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United States24342 Posts
Part 3: Managing Stress
I'm going to keep this part brief since stress could be considered its own topic. This is just to get you started.
What is the Stress Response?
The Stress Response is your body's natural, involuntarily physiological changes that occur whenever faced with a stressful situation (physical or mental). This can be very useful when escaping a predator, but is very detrimental in a society where we don't need rapid physiological changes. The more Stress Responses that occur in a day, the more likely that there will be sleep difficulties that night. There is a link between stressful lives and insomnia.
What is a Relaxation Response?
We can't always reduce the amount of stress our lives give us, but we can learn how to relax. It is possible to encourage your body to reverse the effects of the Stress Response. You've undoubtedly heard of or read about relaxation techniques involving closing your eyes, imagining or thinking about something very soothing, and breathing properly. There are countless methods for accomplishing this, and you might be surprised to learn that this can be very effective in reducing the body's negative reactions to stress. Many people practice yoga frequently, and that is less about contorting the body in funny ways, and more about using relaxation to remain healthy. There are actual scientific results which show that encouraging a relaxation response improves our health. I leave the choosing/locating of a technique for triggering the Relaxation Response as an exercise for the reader.
Can I use Cognitive Restructuring to help with Stress?
Before using Cognitive Restructuring, note that people constantly engage in internal self-talk that they are often not aware of. The tone of these internal messages has a big effect on how we feel overall. Cognitive Restructuring should be used to help prevent Negative Automatic Thoughts (NATs). Often during a stressful situation, our minds filter out any thoughts that don't contribute towards a negative view of the situation. These NATs overpower our thinking and make our stress become worse. To work on reducing your NATs, you should take similar steps to how you dealt with NSTs. The only difference is that NSTs were relating specifically to sleep and were easier to identify for this reason. NATs can be about pretty much anything that upsets you or stresses you out.
Your conscious goals should be to:
- Be more realistic and accurate in thinking about stressful situations
- Reduce tunnel vision under stress
- See stressful situations more clearly
- Minimize 'false alarms' in response to stressors
Identifying NATs is tough but you can try to identify them by determining what thought caused you to feel stressed. The next time you are stressed you should try to make a conscious effort to identify which thought set you off. Think about ways you could have thought about it different and bypassed some of the stress. You can play devil's advocate with these negative thoughts in order to discredit them or render them irrelevant. "Is this thought really true?" "What is really the worst thing that will happen? Am I exaggerating how bad this is?" "Am I using absolute words such as never, always, worst, terrible, or horrible?" (Recall that only a Sith lord speaks in absolutes!) These are all examples of questions you can ask yourself to help identify a NAT. Still another idea is to use the "double standard" technique where you ask yourself if you would have the same thought (NAT) when considering a friend in the same stressful situation as yourself. Placing yourself into another's shoes will sometimes make it easier to provide a realistic perspective to your situation and identify if thoughts are unfair or unnecessarily negative.
By using the Relaxation Response and Cognitive Restructuring to manage stress, you will see benefits not just in your sleep, but also in other areas of your health and daily life. Managing Stress is a very important part of living a healthy life.
Can you give me some more tips about being healthy/happy?
Being optimistic strongly contributes towards being healthy and happy. If you feel in control of your life, committed to things outside of yourself (family, pet, religion, community, etc), and view hurdles as challenges rather than threats, you will benefit greatly. Having close relationships with people is also very important for most people. Social support does not have to come from your direct family members so long as you have close friends who you can confide in. Elderly people can meet this requirement simply by getting a pet. Sufficient social support is found to drastically improve life expectancy for people of all ages.
Another note: anger is bad, laughter is good. Being angry can be appropriate when a situation truly calls for it, but it is never advantageous for the body itself. Try your best to manage/limit your anger. Realize that it isn't healthy. Laughter, on the other hand, is great. Being able to laugh at and enjoy most situations contributes towards greater health (and therefore better sleep at night). If you are someone who rarely is happy or laughing, then this is an area for improvement. Sometimes the best people to learn from for how to laugh and have fun are children... they do it naturally all the time.
Finally, doing service for others (charity, helping somebody without compensation, what have you) typically improve how we feel about ourselves. Altruism reduces stress, improves positive emotions, improves attitudes and feelings of contentment about what we have, increases self-esteem and sense of well-being, and promotes social support which reduces anger and social isolation.
Final words?
Hopefully many readers of this guide will have everything they need to manage their sleeping problems (or eliminate them). For those of you who still need help, this guide should have helped educate you to the point where you know exactly what area you need help with. Of course I encourage you to seek out additional information if you choose, but beware of all the poor information that exists out there about sleep.
Some specific topics I'd be willing to shed some light on if people request it:
1) Managing shift Work (working night shifts, etc) 2) Managing Jet Lag 3) Infants' and Children's Sleep
Please share with us your experiences, comments, and personal insights. If you find this guide was helpful, please tell us!
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I hesitate to say TLDR in a guide...especially since it looks like you put a lot of effort into it and might actually help me but.. TLDR
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United States24342 Posts
On June 14 2009 10:40 decafchicken wrote: I hesitate to say TLDR in a guide...especially since it looks like you put a lot of effort into it and might actually help me but.. TLDR Are you an insomniac? If so, it's this or a 200+ page book... choose between those or insomnia :3
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Holy damn, that's massive. Good stuff, micro.
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tdlr, i read a bit of it, but yeah sleeping and waking up at the same time everyday helps, definitely
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Cure insomnia? no thx, I'll take the psychic powers.
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On June 14 2009 10:40 decafchicken wrote: I hesitate to say TLDR in a guide...especially since it looks like you put a lot of effort into it and might actually help me but.. TLDR How have I never seen you post before, I've been here a year
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NeverGG
United Kingdom5399 Posts
Wow a really detailed guide. I'm a terribly light sleeper myself, but not an insomnia sufferer thank god. I've recently moved into a room facing a main road, but it seems as though my body has gotten used to the slight noises from outside. It's strange how patterns emerge like that.
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Nice, that's a very detailed and practical guide. I think this is quite useful.
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I used to suffer from insomnia before I discovered TvT VODs
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9069 Posts
Will read this for sure, I have sleeping disorders and insomnia for 3 months or so. Thank you for making the guide
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On June 14 2009 11:04 Chef wrote: I used to suffer from insomnia before I discovered TvT VODs I agree lol
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On June 14 2009 10:50 n.DieJokes wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2009 10:40 decafchicken wrote: I hesitate to say TLDR in a guide...especially since it looks like you put a lot of effort into it and might actually help me but.. TLDR How have I never seen you post before, I've been here a year
you probably suffer from insomnia and its affecting your memory. read above guide for help.
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On June 14 2009 11:12 disciple wrote: Will read this for sure, I have sleeping disorders and insomnia for 3 months or so. Thank you for making the guide
I am pretty much suffering from insomnia for over a year with some breakes. I manage to get a proper sleep for a few days and then it is back for a few weeks...
Thanks for the guide. Hopefully it will help...
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micro, since you seem to be using insomnia in a general sleeping problems type sense, what do you call an acute temporary case of being almost totally unable to sleep? I had this happen to me twice in college, where I was basically unable to sleep more than 1-2 hours per day at most for about 2 weeks straight. The student health center referred to that as insomnia, and said basically that there wasn't anything that could be done other than wait for it to pass, and gave me some very light sleep aids to help make it manageable (trust me, going that long without significant sleep fucks you up hardcore). That's one case where it seems to me light sleeping pills are appropriate - I just used (at the Health Center's direction) an OTC dose of diphenhydramine hydrochloride antihistimine (anti-allergy) once a day when I wanted to sleep. It was enough to let me fall asleep for 6 hours or so for a few days until the issue went away and I could sleep normally again. I didn't see any mention of this in your guide (though I only skimmed the latter 2/3 of it), so I don't know if you want to add any kind of comment on that as a special case or something.
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ooh this will probably be the guide that helps me the most out all of the ones written, thank you!
Edit: i still can't believe there is a part 3 to this
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THANK YOU SIR!!! I have been suffering from delayed phase disorder for as long as i can remember, coincidentally i live in vancouver where the sun is absent for most of the year. With this guide i will make things better.
edit: also i think Micronesia wins this guide thing, this is thoughtful guide since he knows so many TLers don't sleep right.
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On June 14 2009 11:04 Chef wrote: I used to suffer from insomnia before I discovered TvT VODs
Amen to that.
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Well I think all of these
" * I didn't sleep a wink last night * I must get eight hours of sleep * My insomnia is going to cause health problems * I'm dreading bedtime * Why does sleep come so easily for everyone but me? * I feel miserable because I didn't sleep well * How will I function today after such a horrible night of sleep? * I can't sleep without a sleeping pill"
Also, it's 06:04 AM now when I'm reading this. I'm partially blaming you for my insomnia now cause i've been reading this for the past hour! Very good guide, i'll think about it when i'll go to sleep now (or maybe i shouldn't)
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This is the only guide ive read fully and i got to say it was amazing.
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Awesome, this is a really well-written and detailed guide. Right when I think I can't love Micronesia anymore :3 <3
On June 14 2009 11:04 Chef wrote: I used to suffer from insomnia before I discovered TvT VODs +1
zzz
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United States24342 Posts
On June 14 2009 11:33 Macavenger wrote: micro, since you seem to be using insomnia in a general sleeping problems type sense, what do you call an acute temporary case of being almost totally unable to sleep? I had this happen to me twice in college, where I was basically unable to sleep more than 1-2 hours per day at most for about 2 weeks straight. The student health center referred to that as insomnia, and said basically that there wasn't anything that could be done other than wait for it to pass, and gave me some very light sleep aids to help make it manageable (trust me, going that long without significant sleep fucks you up hardcore). That's one case where it seems to me light sleeping pills are appropriate - I just used (at the Health Center's direction) an OTC dose of diphenhydramine hydrochloride antihistimine (anti-allergy) once a day when I wanted to sleep. It was enough to let me fall asleep for 6 hours or so for a few days until the issue went away and I could sleep normally again. I didn't see any mention of this in your guide (though I only skimmed the latter 2/3 of it), so I don't know if you want to add any kind of comment on that as a special case or something. Do you have no idea what might have caused it? Something happen with drinking, drugs, or highly stressful events in life? If you can't think of anything significant, then I have no idea why it happened. However, from the sound of it, that was the perfect case of when to actually use a sleep aid. It helped you get enough sleep so that you could complete your academic activities, and then you stopped using it when your sleep returned to normal. Interesting but I'm sorry I can't help you more. Maybe if you can provide more details it might help, but this might be a question for your doctor possibly XD
On June 14 2009 11:42 uglymoose89 wrote: ooh this will probably be the guide that helps me the most out all of the ones written, thank you! Actually when I was thinking about making a new guide (recall I've made several before the contest was even announced) I was thinking of what topic would be helpful to many different people on tl... I realized that my current interest in treating my mild insomnia would be a good topic for most people to read about. I particularly love how I was able to write it on a topic where most people are grossly misinformed (I also love specializing in areas of physics which are grossly misunderstood).
On June 14 2009 11:44 ShaperofDreams wrote: edit: also i think Micronesia wins this guide thing, this is thoughtful guide since he knows so many TLers don't sleep right. Yeah most people who are on the computer a lot for recreational purpose seem to have sleeping problems.
On June 14 2009 12:06 z]Benny wrote: Well I think all of these
" * I didn't sleep a wink last night * I must get eight hours of sleep * My insomnia is going to cause health problems * I'm dreading bedtime * Why does sleep come so easily for everyone but me? * I feel miserable because I didn't sleep well * How will I function today after such a horrible night of sleep? * I can't sleep without a sleeping pill"
Also, it's 06:04 AM now when I'm reading this. I'm partially blaming you for my insomnia now cause i've been reading this for the past hour! Very good guide, i'll think about it when i'll go to sleep now (or maybe i shouldn't) I wouldn't think about it too hard as that will trigger your wakefulness system... but you can just think to yourself that you have found a good tool to help you combat insomnia and you will suddenly find it easier to fall asleep!
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Dude if this works and actually helps me with not falling asleep when studying and in class, im gonna owe you big time.
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thanks for the guide. i have some questions
what time of day do you recommend exercising? Is it best to exercise when our body temperature is at its peak or when it is about to drop (when we start getting drowsy)? does it matter?
how important do you think it is to structure our day based on our body temperature rhythms? working/doing homework during our peak hours and taking breaks / eating when the temperature is dropping?
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United States24342 Posts
On June 14 2009 13:37 xbarisg wrote: thanks for the guide. i have some questions
what time of day do you recommend exercising? Is it best to exercise when our body temperature is at its peak or when it is about to drop (when we start getting drowsy)? does it matter? Exercising causes an increase in body temperature followed by a decrease a few hours later. This decrease persists 2-4 hours after exercising and makes it easier to fall/stay asleep.
What I've read states that the beneficial effects of exercise on sleep are maximized when exercise occurs within three to six ours of bedtime. Be warned that exercising less than three hours before sleep can make it difficult to fall asleep since your body temperature may still be elevated.
how important do you think it is to structure our day based on our body temperature rhythms? working/doing homework during our peak hours and taking breaks / eating when the temperature is dropping?
Many/most people make absolutely no attempt to do this, and a good percentage of them manage fine. This seems to vary from person to person. As long as you don't do activities at times that throw off your cycle (such as doing stimulating things at bedtime) you won't receive adverse effects on sleep. There may be other health benefits when you attempt to align activities with body temperature cycles, but aside from the obvious siesta example I can't tell you one way or the other.
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kinda funny i just watched the movie fight club tonight.
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On June 14 2009 12:50 micronesia wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2009 11:33 Macavenger wrote: micro, since you seem to be using insomnia in a general sleeping problems type sense, what do you call an acute temporary case of being almost totally unable to sleep? I had this happen to me twice in college, where I was basically unable to sleep more than 1-2 hours per day at most for about 2 weeks straight. The student health center referred to that as insomnia, and said basically that there wasn't anything that could be done other than wait for it to pass, and gave me some very light sleep aids to help make it manageable (trust me, going that long without significant sleep fucks you up hardcore). That's one case where it seems to me light sleeping pills are appropriate - I just used (at the Health Center's direction) an OTC dose of diphenhydramine hydrochloride antihistimine (anti-allergy) once a day when I wanted to sleep. It was enough to let me fall asleep for 6 hours or so for a few days until the issue went away and I could sleep normally again. I didn't see any mention of this in your guide (though I only skimmed the latter 2/3 of it), so I don't know if you want to add any kind of comment on that as a special case or something. Do you have no idea what might have caused it? Something happen with drinking, drugs, or highly stressful events in life? If you can't think of anything significant, then I have no idea why it happened. However, from the sound of it, that was the perfect case of when to actually use a sleep aid. It helped you get enough sleep so that you could complete your academic activities, and then you stopped using it when your sleep returned to normal. Interesting but I'm sorry I can't help you more. Maybe if you can provide more details it might help, but this might be a question for your doctor possibly XD Definitely wasn't in any way drug related, as I don't drink or use anything. Academic stress was probably the most likely trigger. The way the health center people talked about it, it was something they'd definitely seen before repeatedly but I don't think they really knew a whole lot about the causes and stuff themselves.
Don't really need any help with it at this point, I was just curious about how it might fit into your guide because that kind of experience is what I've associated with "insomnia," at least since that time.
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thanks a lot. another question:
if we get in a situation where our sleeping pattern gets messed up from staying up too late, whats the best way to fix it and get back to a normal schedule? whenever i stay up too late (and then wake up late the next morning) i feel like i settle into a new sleeping schedule and it's very hard to get back into my old one. i suppose this is similar to dealing with jet lag.
i guess the best solution is to completely avoid it in the first place and wake up at the same time everyday. but is there anything we can do if we already screwed up and woke up later?
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United States24342 Posts
On June 14 2009 14:04 Macavenger wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2009 12:50 micronesia wrote:On June 14 2009 11:33 Macavenger wrote: micro, since you seem to be using insomnia in a general sleeping problems type sense, what do you call an acute temporary case of being almost totally unable to sleep? I had this happen to me twice in college, where I was basically unable to sleep more than 1-2 hours per day at most for about 2 weeks straight. The student health center referred to that as insomnia, and said basically that there wasn't anything that could be done other than wait for it to pass, and gave me some very light sleep aids to help make it manageable (trust me, going that long without significant sleep fucks you up hardcore). That's one case where it seems to me light sleeping pills are appropriate - I just used (at the Health Center's direction) an OTC dose of diphenhydramine hydrochloride antihistimine (anti-allergy) once a day when I wanted to sleep. It was enough to let me fall asleep for 6 hours or so for a few days until the issue went away and I could sleep normally again. I didn't see any mention of this in your guide (though I only skimmed the latter 2/3 of it), so I don't know if you want to add any kind of comment on that as a special case or something. Do you have no idea what might have caused it? Something happen with drinking, drugs, or highly stressful events in life? If you can't think of anything significant, then I have no idea why it happened. However, from the sound of it, that was the perfect case of when to actually use a sleep aid. It helped you get enough sleep so that you could complete your academic activities, and then you stopped using it when your sleep returned to normal. Interesting but I'm sorry I can't help you more. Maybe if you can provide more details it might help, but this might be a question for your doctor possibly XD Definitely wasn't in any way drug related, as I don't drink or use anything. Academic stress was probably the most likely trigger. The way the health center people talked about it, it was something they'd definitely seen before repeatedly but I don't think they really knew a whole lot about the causes and stuff themselves. Don't really need any help with it at this point, I was just curious about how it might fit into your guide because that kind of experience is what I've associated with "insomnia," at least since that time. I don't have much I can add to this, but I could say this is a classic example of how sleeping medication can actually be helpful. I know I strongly suggested staying away from them, but I did say that there is a time and a place where they can be effective. You seem to be the textbook case :D
On June 14 2009 14:07 xbarisg wrote: thanks a lot. another question:
if we get in a situation where our sleeping pattern gets messed up from staying up too late, whats the best way to fix it and get back to a normal schedule? whenever i stay up too late (and then wake up late the next morning) i feel like i settle into a new sleeping schedule and it's very hard to get back into my old one. i suppose this is similar to dealing with jet lag.
i guess the best solution is to completely avoid it in the first place and wake up at the same time everyday. but is there anything we can do if we already screwed up and woke up later? This is the part that is still the toughest for me to overcome as well: getting my ass out of bed when I'm tired. It's going to happen... you are going to go to bed way later than you expected some time. The best way to deal with it is to force yourself to get up as early as you can. Keep in mind you are better off getting too little sleep that one night (since the mind can easily make up the missed deep sleep the next night) than sleeping in to avoid missing any core sleep. Of course this doesn't always work either. One suggestion is to use commercially available bright light boxes if the sun is not available for bright-light exposure. Basically, exposing yourself to bright light right when you get up can help to jump start your body temperature and hopefully pull back to your natural bedtime for that evening.
I find the hardest thing to find good advice on is how to get your ass up in the morning XD
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really long guide, but good nonetheless. yeah, idk i think the side effects of pills is just dependency of it or something, either that or it itself has side effects of its own. i still take my sleep aids but at the same time i try not to bc its stressful to my heart.
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United States24342 Posts
On June 14 2009 14:36 Raithed wrote: really long guide, but good nonetheless. yeah, idk i think the side effects of pills is just dependency of it or something, either that or it itself has side effects of its own. i still take my sleep aids but at the same time i try not to bc its stressful to my heart. It depends on the types of pills. Do you mean cheap OTC crap or prescription sleeping pills? Supposedly the newest prescription sleeping pills aren't as bad in terms of health risks, but I don't know much about it.
If you mean OTC crap then after a few weeks they really aren't worth shit unless you have strong placebo effect going...
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On June 14 2009 11:15 Yaqoob wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2009 11:04 Chef wrote: I used to suffer from insomnia before I discovered TvT VODs I agree lol QFT
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Great guide !
I have a stressful job (Air-traffic controller) with weird shifts (including night and/or very early morning), so my wake-up time always varies.
I guess my occasionnal sleeping problems come from this, as I don't remember having any before. I had already put some of the tips you mention into practice, and they helped me a lot. For example, exercising in the afternoon has proven to be extremely efficient for me. Dimming the lights 1/2H prior to going to sleep helps me a lot to. Naps do me a lot of good, especially after a crappy night, or worse, a night shift. If I keep it short enough (about 1H max.), I wake up rejuvenated and I can still sleep the next night.
A few questions though :
- I found my dinner to have a tremendous influence on my sleep. IE, eating too much, or too fat, or drinking alcohol causes poor quality sleep, and makes me wake-up very early, even if I don't feel sick from overeating. Any idea where this can come from ?
- Having a bedtime routine is supposed to help your brain go into "sleep" mode. Is there any scientific evidence to support this ?
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I took these pics a few weeks ago and this is a decent place to post them I guess.
Confused? + Show Spoiler +The darker banana was left near my CRT computer monitor over night. The Light and Radiation blackened it. The other bananas are the same age which were in the kitchen. Computers and lights will keep your mind occupied but also keep you from falling asleep. You also blink a lot less when you are on a computer. Not really sure of the relevance to this topic but I'm sure someone can fill in the blanks.
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On June 14 2009 10:40 decafchicken wrote: I hesitate to say TLDR in a guide...especially since it looks like you put a lot of effort into it and might actually help me but.. TLDR im an insomiac
i actually want to sleep after reading it. I read the whole thing but i feel so drowsy now. Its 6:30 pm too. Not saying its a bad guide. I was interested in the first page but as it got longer was getting tired. Nice guide it has some nice points that im going to try to use and not just give up that they dont work on their first try. Will need to print it though.
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On June 14 2009 14:41 micronesia wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2009 14:36 Raithed wrote: really long guide, but good nonetheless. yeah, idk i think the side effects of pills is just dependency of it or something, either that or it itself has side effects of its own. i still take my sleep aids but at the same time i try not to bc its stressful to my heart. It depends on the types of pills. Do you mean cheap OTC crap or prescription sleeping pills? Supposedly the newest prescription sleeping pills aren't as bad in terms of health risks, but I don't know much about it. If you mean OTC crap then after a few weeks they really aren't worth shit unless you have strong placebo effect going... its advilPM if that means anything lol.
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Few questions to our Mr. Sleep Expert.
It's 3 AM right now. I'll probably sleep soon from watching a chess vod. However, my body will wake up @ 9:00. I then say, "hmm, Sunday...nothing going on, I'm going to go back to sleep." I wake up @ 11, do this again, repeat again and finally get up @ 12.
Why is it, that I'm not getting enough sleep, and sleeping very late, yet my body still wakes me up @ 9?
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Nice guide micro.
Question: You mention that needing 8 hours of sleep is a myth, and that in fact required sleep time varies from person to person.
Can people change how much sleep they need? If you get into a pattern of consistently getting, say, 4 hours of sleep per night, will your body adapt its requirements?
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England2648 Posts
If you have trouble falling asleep but are fine during the day, then you are simply someone who needs less sleep.
Oh man, thank god for that. I don't want to have insomnia. That's probably changed my whole outlook on sleep now and probably stopped me from doing something stupid.
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Hey I have a question regarding this,
I don't have trouble falling asleep or need alarm clock waking up, however in the morning and afternoon when I am taking the bus to get to my school and back I always dose off during the 1 hour bus ride and probably enter stage1/2 sleep. Do you think I am not getting enough Iron/exercise or are my not getting enough sleep?
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On June 14 2009 16:07 Uraeus wrote: Great guide !
I have a stressful job (Air-traffic controller) with weird shifts (including night and/or very early morning), so my wake-up time always varies.
I guess my occasionnal sleeping problems come from this, as I don't remember having any before. I had already put some of the tips you mention into practice, and they helped me a lot. For example, exercising in the afternoon has proven to be extremely efficient for me. Dimming the lights 1/2H prior to going to sleep helps me a lot to. Naps do me a lot of good, especially after a crappy night, or worse, a night shift. If I keep it short enough (about 1H max.), I wake up rejuvenated and I can still sleep the next night.
A few questions though :
- I found my dinner to have a tremendous influence on my sleep. IE, eating too much, or too fat, or drinking alcohol causes poor quality sleep, and makes me wake-up very early, even if I don't feel sick from overeating. Any idea where this can come from ?
- Having a bedtime routine is supposed to help your brain go into "sleep" mode. Is there any scientific evidence to support this ?
1) Eating definitely can affect your sleep. There isn't much research on this yet, but it has been found that certain foods promote sleep and others inhibit it. Bread, bagels, and crackers are high in complex carbs and have a mild sleep-enhancing effect because they increase serotonin. In contrast, foods such as meat that are high in protein can inhibit sleep by blocking the synthesis of serotonin making us feel more alert. To avoid wake-ups, try a complex carbohydrate snack before bed. On the days where you ate a lot and had sleep problems, ask yourself what type of food you ate a lot of... you generally want to avoid foods high in sugar or refined carbs, foods likely to cause gas, or MSG.
2) Read the section "Tell me about Stimulus-control Techniques (more about Cues)" at the bottom of the second post which says that your mind associates things all the time. If you always go to bed after a certain routine, then performing that routine will trigger your sleep system and you will start becoming tired (similar to how Pavlov's dog started salivating when he heard a bell).
CharlieMurphy: Yeah there is quite a bit of light coming from a computer which wakes you up.
On June 14 2009 18:40 Raithed wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2009 14:41 micronesia wrote:On June 14 2009 14:36 Raithed wrote: really long guide, but good nonetheless. yeah, idk i think the side effects of pills is just dependency of it or something, either that or it itself has side effects of its own. i still take my sleep aids but at the same time i try not to bc its stressful to my heart. It depends on the types of pills. Do you mean cheap OTC crap or prescription sleeping pills? Supposedly the newest prescription sleeping pills aren't as bad in terms of health risks, but I don't know much about it. If you mean OTC crap then after a few weeks they really aren't worth shit unless you have strong placebo effect going... its advilPM if that means anything lol. Yeah ok. The fact that you overuse them isn't dangerous or anything very bad, but it probably isn't that helpful after the first few weeks. However, like I said earlier, it's possible you have a placebo effect going on where taking the pill has become learned cue for sleepiness even though the medicinal effects aren't causing that... if so... do whatever works I guess. Personally, I like the idea of being able to fall asleep without any medical aids... placebo or not.
On June 14 2009 18:57 kdog3683 wrote: Few questions to our Mr. Sleep Expert.
It's 3 AM right now. I'll probably sleep soon from watching a chess vod. However, my body will wake up @ 9:00. I then say, "hmm, Sunday...nothing going on, I'm going to go back to sleep." I wake up @ 11, do this again, repeat again and finally get up @ 12.
Why is it, that I'm not getting enough sleep, and sleeping very late, yet my body still wakes me up @ 9? Most likely your body temperature starts to get higher at that time which triggers your wakefulness system and you awaken. If that's the time that you get up during the week, then you should consider getting up on that time on the weekend also (many people like me can't even wake up on our own on weekends so you are already ahead of the eight ball). If that sounds/feels very unappealing then you should consider not staying up as late on weekends. You can get the same amount of sleep, but make your week better by using the same schedule seven days a week. Of course, it's ok to push it back like an hour on the weekend, especially if you work really early during the week, but anything more than that will interfere with your natural sleep cycle.
On June 14 2009 19:07 SmoKing2012 wrote: Nice guide micro.
Question: You mention that needing 8 hours of sleep is a myth, and that in fact required sleep time varies from person to person.
Can people change how much sleep they need? If you get into a pattern of consistently getting, say, 4 hours of sleep per night, will your body adapt its requirements? This one I'm not sure about. I haven't heard of someone being able to manually force themselves to change their amount of sleep by sleeping only at certain times... What you can do is change your daily habits so that your nutritional needs change, and then that might change your sleep habits, but I haven't learned much about how to go about this. Is there a specific reason why you are interested in this?
On June 15 2009 00:10 Shivaz wrote: Hey I have a question regarding this,
I don't have trouble falling asleep or need alarm clock waking up, however in the morning and afternoon when I am taking the bus to get to my school and back I always dose off during the 1 hour bus ride and probably enter stage1/2 sleep. Do you think I am not getting enough Iron/exercise or are my not getting enough sleep? How much sleep are you getting between when you fall asleep easily and when you wake up easily? Is it the amount that you think your body needs on a daily basis? If yes, then ask yourself how important it is that you keep awake during the bus ride. If there's no reason why you should stay awake on the bus, then it's hard to blame yourself for dozing off. Are you find after you get to your destination, or do you fall asleep there also?
One thing you can do if you want to help prevent this is use bright light (sun or bright light boxes) as soon as you wake up to trigger your wakefulness system and start to increase your body temperature. Also you might want to consider light morning exercise and see how that works for you. But if your current system of napping on the bus doesn't cause a problem for you then you should consider not worrying about it...
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Marijuana is an excellent cure for insomnia. Probably better for you than any sleeping pill and way more effective.
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Yeah ok. The fact that you overuse them isn't dangerous or anything very bad, but it probably isn't that helpful after the first few weeks. However, like I said earlier, it's possible you have a placebo effect going on where taking the pill has become learned cue for sleepiness even though the medicinal effects aren't causing that... if so... do whatever works I guess. Personally, I like the idea of being able to fall asleep without any medical aids... placebo or not. im not sure if its a placebo effect, i mean it takes 2ish +/- hours for me to feel its effects that numbs my whole body, etc. and after awhile ive taken it, i feel tremendous stress to my heart as i already have a heart condition.
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On June 15 2009 03:14 gLyo wrote: Marijuana is an excellent cure for insomnia. Probably better for you than any sleeping pill and way more effective. There are plenty of sleep aid options that aren't full bore prescription strength stuff that really are not bad for you at all unless you do stupid things with them. Benadryl antihistamine has the same active ingredient as most sleeping pills, but in a much smaller dosage, and it will help you sleep in addition to clearing up allergies. 25mg of that once in a while to help you sleep won't do anything bad to you any more than popping one occasionally during allergy season would.
The main reason sleeping pills are bad is the potential for habit formation and inability to sleep without them later. Using OTC doses rarely when you need help sleeping for a particular night or something is really harmless - as long as you stick strictly to the "rarely" part. Certainly won't do anything to you compared to marijuana, not that marijuana is anywhere near as bad for you as its often portrayed in the media either.
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On June 14 2009 18:57 kdog3683 wrote: Few questions to our Mr. Sleep Expert.
It's 3 AM right now. I'll probably sleep soon from watching a chess vod. However, my body will wake up @ 9:00. I then say, "hmm, Sunday...nothing going on, I'm going to go back to sleep." I wake up @ 11, do this again, repeat again and finally get up @ 12.
Why is it, that I'm not getting enough sleep, and sleeping very late, yet my body still wakes me up @ 9? How often do you do this? And did you recently get back from traveling? When I returned from Taiwan, I wouldn't feel tired until 2-3 AM, and then wake up EVERY DAY at 6 or earlier. I would feel fine until about 3-4 PM when I would crash, and take a nap until 8. And if you don't sleep until 3 every day, it could just be your mental clock waking you up out of habit. Finally, when everything is light, the sleep you get is much weaker so you could just wake up because of that (similar to how it is easier to fall asleep in a pitch black room than one with a lamp on).
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This is the guide that will help me get rid of insomnia i should probaply fall asleep reading it.
jk
nice guide
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On June 15 2009 03:14 gLyo wrote: Marijuana is an excellent cure for insomnia. Probably better for you than any sleeping pill and way more effective. Good joke. Substances are not a cure for insomnia.
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On June 15 2009 04:28 Macavenger wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2009 03:14 gLyo wrote: Marijuana is an excellent cure for insomnia. Probably better for you than any sleeping pill and way more effective. There are plenty of sleep aid options that aren't full bore prescription strength stuff that really are not bad for you at all unless you do stupid things with them. Benadryl antihistamine has the same active ingredient as most sleeping pills, but in a much smaller dosage, and it will help you sleep in addition to clearing up allergies. 25mg of that once in a while to help you sleep won't do anything bad to you any more than popping one occasionally during allergy season would. The main reason sleeping pills are bad is the potential for habit formation and inability to sleep without them later. Using OTC doses rarely when you need help sleeping for a particular night or something is really harmless - as long as you stick strictly to the "rarely" part. Certainly won't do anything to you compared to marijuana, not that marijuana is anywhere near as bad for you as its often portrayed in the media either.
Personally, I am lucky if even prescription strength sleeping pills put me to sleep; I imagine there are others out there like me. Marijuana usually lets me to fall asleep within minutes and get a good nights sleep.
On June 15 2009 05:02 micronesia wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2009 03:14 gLyo wrote: Marijuana is an excellent cure for insomnia. Probably better for you than any sleeping pill and way more effective. Good joke. Substances are not a cure for insomnia.
Maybe "cure" wasn't the right word, but it is far more effective than any other sleeping medication for me.
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On June 14 2009 10:35 micronesia wrote: (nobody has ever died from insomnia) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatal_familial_insomnia http://abcnews.go.com/Health/story?id=3675223&page=1
On a serious note, cognitive therapy and drug-free treatments can only get you so far. Some people have very real conditions that cannot be treated solely through the peter-pan method (just think a happy thought). Seroquel and Ambien are effective at treating insomnia in patients in which ordinary drug-free methods simply fail to respond, and benzodiazepenes are often necessary for those who have insomnia stemming from anxiety or panic disorders that simply will not respond to treatment. While you clearly have a firm understanding of how the basic sleep cycle works in a normal person, you (erroneously) assume that all people suffering from insomnia are not suffering from a psychiatric condition that requires chemical treatment to restore proper brain function. To make the blanket statement that drugs are not a good treatment for insomnia is to give out potentially dangerous misinformation.
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On June 15 2009 05:09 MMC.Lazerflip wrote: On a serious note, cognitive therapy and drug-free treatments can only get you so far. Some people have very real conditions that cannot be treated solely through the peter-pan method (just think a happy thought). Seroquel and Ambien are effective at treating insomnia in patients in which ordinary drug-free methods simply fail to respond, and benzodiazepenes are often necessary for those who have insomnia stemming from anxiety or panic disorders that simply will not respond to treatment. While you clearly have a firm understanding of how the basic sleep cycle works in a normal person, you (erroneously) assume that all people suffering from insomnia are not suffering from a psychiatric condition that requires chemical treatment to restore proper brain function. To make the blanket statement that drugs are not a good treatment for insomnia is to give out potentially dangerous misinformation. Yes I should be more clear about this. There are definitely times when this guide will not sufficiently treat someone who is suffering from insomnia. It is not the majority of cases though. Also, for people who cannot help themselves with these methods, the goal is generally to treat the physical cause of the insomnia rather than the insomnia itself. If medication is recommended for treating those problems, then sure. However, medication is almost never the long-term solution to the insomnia-aspect of deeper problems. I cannot speak further about medical problems that cause insomnia as I am not qualified to (and I mentioned that in the guide).
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Needs moar pictures of people looking sleepy to put me to sleep. I do like the idea behind it though, and its well written and laid out nice.
This VOD is also guaranteed to put you to sleep. If you can finish all 3 parts without falling asleep or rage quitting then there definitely is no help for you
Edit: I also love the post from the air traffic controller, good stuff!
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On June 15 2009 05:05 gLyo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2009 04:28 Macavenger wrote:On June 15 2009 03:14 gLyo wrote: Marijuana is an excellent cure for insomnia. Probably better for you than any sleeping pill and way more effective. There are plenty of sleep aid options that aren't full bore prescription strength stuff that really are not bad for you at all unless you do stupid things with them. Benadryl antihistamine has the same active ingredient as most sleeping pills, but in a much smaller dosage, and it will help you sleep in addition to clearing up allergies. 25mg of that once in a while to help you sleep won't do anything bad to you any more than popping one occasionally during allergy season would. The main reason sleeping pills are bad is the potential for habit formation and inability to sleep without them later. Using OTC doses rarely when you need help sleeping for a particular night or something is really harmless - as long as you stick strictly to the "rarely" part. Certainly won't do anything to you compared to marijuana, not that marijuana is anywhere near as bad for you as its often portrayed in the media either. Personally, I am lucky if even prescription strength sleeping pills put me to sleep; I imagine there are others out there like me. Marijuana usually lets me to fall asleep within minutes and get a good nights sleep. Are you already tired when you're taking them? No sleeping pill is going to put you to sleep if you aren't already tired - at least, not at any safe dosage level. The active ingredient for many sleep aids, diphenhydramine hydrochloride, only induces mild drowsiness. If you're tired and having trouble falling asleep, it can be enough to push you over the edge and let you actually sleep.
Beyond that, I'm sure there are some people that are naturally resistant to the effects for whatever reason, but from my experience it should be pretty rare. Even in such cases, I'm dubious about the idea of a heart rate increasing semi-stimulant as a sleep aid. I'd personally wonder about a possible placebo effect there.
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On June 15 2009 08:02 Macavenger wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2009 05:05 gLyo wrote:On June 15 2009 04:28 Macavenger wrote:On June 15 2009 03:14 gLyo wrote: Marijuana is an excellent cure for insomnia. Probably better for you than any sleeping pill and way more effective. There are plenty of sleep aid options that aren't full bore prescription strength stuff that really are not bad for you at all unless you do stupid things with them. Benadryl antihistamine has the same active ingredient as most sleeping pills, but in a much smaller dosage, and it will help you sleep in addition to clearing up allergies. 25mg of that once in a while to help you sleep won't do anything bad to you any more than popping one occasionally during allergy season would. The main reason sleeping pills are bad is the potential for habit formation and inability to sleep without them later. Using OTC doses rarely when you need help sleeping for a particular night or something is really harmless - as long as you stick strictly to the "rarely" part. Certainly won't do anything to you compared to marijuana, not that marijuana is anywhere near as bad for you as its often portrayed in the media either. Personally, I am lucky if even prescription strength sleeping pills put me to sleep; I imagine there are others out there like me. Marijuana usually lets me to fall asleep within minutes and get a good nights sleep. Are you already tired when you're taking them? No sleeping pill is going to put you to sleep if you aren't already tired - at least, not at any safe dosage level. The active ingredient for many sleep aids, diphenhydramine hydrochloride, only induces mild drowsiness. If you're tired and having trouble falling asleep, it can be enough to push you over the edge and let you actually sleep. Beyond that, I'm sure there are some people that are naturally resistant to the effects for whatever reason, but from my experience it should be pretty rare. Even in such cases, I'm dubious about the idea of a heart rate increasing semi-stimulant as a sleep aid. I'd personally wonder about a possible placebo effect there. Probably true, but also... any substance that you use to solve your insomnia isn't solving it if you always need to use that substance in order to sleep...
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This guide were way more useful for me than any other from the beta contest! Thanks a lot for putting your time to writing it. I hope you win
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On June 15 2009 13:53 VIB wrote: This guide were way more useful for me than any other from the beta contest! Thanks. That was exactly my goal.
Thanks a lot for putting your time to writing it. No problem. I enjoyed writing it and it helped me better understand the topic (part of the reason why I love writing guides).
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At one point, maybe four years ago I sometimes had insomnia. Obsessively, during one of my great purges of bad habits, I googled insomnia, and got rid of it. I can't read all of that, but it looks helpful. Props.
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On June 15 2009 14:38 obesechicken13 wrote: At one point, maybe four years ago I sometimes had insomnia. Obsessively, during one of my great purges of bad habits, I googled insomnia, and got rid of it. I can't read all of that, but it looks helpful. Props. Well obesity and protein (from chicken) are both bad when trying to fall asleep XD
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On June 15 2009 08:02 Macavenger wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2009 05:05 gLyo wrote:On June 15 2009 04:28 Macavenger wrote:On June 15 2009 03:14 gLyo wrote: Marijuana is an excellent cure for insomnia. Probably better for you than any sleeping pill and way more effective. There are plenty of sleep aid options that aren't full bore prescription strength stuff that really are not bad for you at all unless you do stupid things with them. Benadryl antihistamine has the same active ingredient as most sleeping pills, but in a much smaller dosage, and it will help you sleep in addition to clearing up allergies. 25mg of that once in a while to help you sleep won't do anything bad to you any more than popping one occasionally during allergy season would. The main reason sleeping pills are bad is the potential for habit formation and inability to sleep without them later. Using OTC doses rarely when you need help sleeping for a particular night or something is really harmless - as long as you stick strictly to the "rarely" part. Certainly won't do anything to you compared to marijuana, not that marijuana is anywhere near as bad for you as its often portrayed in the media either. Personally, I am lucky if even prescription strength sleeping pills put me to sleep; I imagine there are others out there like me. Marijuana usually lets me to fall asleep within minutes and get a good nights sleep. Are you already tired when you're taking them? No sleeping pill is going to put you to sleep if you aren't already tired - at least, not at any safe dosage level. The active ingredient for many sleep aids, diphenhydramine hydrochloride, only induces mild drowsiness. If you're tired and having trouble falling asleep, it can be enough to push you over the edge and let you actually sleep. Beyond that, I'm sure there are some people that are naturally resistant to the effects for whatever reason, but from my experience it should be pretty rare. Even in such cases, I'm dubious about the idea of a heart rate increasing semi-stimulant as a sleep aid. I'd personally wonder about a possible placebo effect there.
Even though marijuana does increase heart rate, it also makes you lazy, slows thought processes, and makes you content enough to just lie there and sleep.
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do yooh have any solutions to nightmares?? ._. for a while i kept getting nightmares i was afraid to sleep lol
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On June 16 2009 01:26 yooh wrote: do yooh have any solutions to nightmares?? ._. for a while i kept getting nightmares i was afraid to sleep lol I have nightmares on a daily basis... but they actually make me afraid of waking up.
Seriously, I don't know much about treating nightmares specifically, although I would suggest using the guide to see if there are any sleep habits or thoughts that you can improve. This might indirectly help reduce the occurrences of nightmares. However, if the nightmares are a symptom then you need to figure out what is causing them...
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Very nice guide that I could relate to
Seems like I have delayed phase disorder T_T Is there any way to reduce sleep without having a proper sleep/exercise schedule? I'm asking because on days that I don't have shit to do, I regularly sleep over 10 and even 12 hours. I've noticed although I'm a heavy sleeper, I can wake up in time without an alarm clock when I have something very important in the morning. I guess that's where the 'mindset-is-important-in-sleep' comes in? o_O
Also, I have trouble eating after pulling an all-nighter. I know I should be hungry after 10+ hours of no food but I have no appetite
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quality. This has made a big impact on my life. thank you
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On June 19 2009 14:41 intothewrx wrote: quality. This has made a big impact on my life. thank you No problem. Coincidentally I drove an 09 WRX yesterday.
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Thank you very much for this guide, Micronesia
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I'm surprised nobody expressed a specific interest in either shift work, jet lag, or infants' sleep. I'd be willing to provide a little extra on any of those.
On June 22 2009 15:22 Horangee wrote:Thank you very much for this guide, Micronesia No problem. I hope it helped. I'm glad it dragged you out of the woodwork mr. 1 post :D
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Problem: You have insomnia Cure: Smoke pot
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On June 15 2009 05:24 HuskyTheHusky wrote: I also love the post from the air traffic controller, good stuff!
I guess that was me. Thank you.
On June 22 2009 15:38 micronesia wrote: I'm surprised nobody expressed a specific interest in either shift work, jet lag, or infants' sleep. I'd be willing to provide a little extra on any of those.
I am actually interested in tips about shift work. My shift patern is as follows :
Day 1 : early morning shift : ie wake up @ 5:30 or so Day 2 : day shift : wake up between 7:30 and 9:00 (depending on the actual shift) Day 3 : late afternoon shift or night shift, so I wake up naturally between 8 and 9 usually Days 4 & 5 : days off (wake up between 8 & 9) Days 6 & 7 : new shift pattern (ie, day 1 & 2 again) or days off if last shift was a night shift
I have 2 problems. First one is, I can never get to sleep early before an early morning shift. I usually fall asleep around 12:00 (as usual), and 5,5h of sleep is more often than not too little sleep for me. I often feel sleepy all day long but cannot always nap. Funny (?) thing is, the moment of the day I feel most awake is between 10 and 12 PM. What can ruin my night, and subsequently my following day. When I manage to get around 7 hours of sleep, early mornings feel like normal days, so a few tips to fall asleep 1h earlier would be welcome.
Second problem is some night shifts. They come in 4 kind, 3 of which cause me no problem. The problemtic shift starts @ 8 PM. I work until 12PM or so, then have dinner at work with my whole working team until 1:30 AM (!) , and then start working again from 3:30 AM till 6:30. I often "sleep" from 2:00 to 3:30, but this is way not enough. I have trouble staying awake through the rest of the shift. I could have dinner before going to work and hence sleep between 12:00 and 3:30, but I don't feel sleepy at all at 12 PM (and I would miss the whole social aspect of having dinner with my colleagues, what would lower my popularity as much as, say, praising GG.net on a TL.net forum). Any idea of what could get me through the night ?
Thnks a lot for your guide again. Too bad you didn't get that Beta key.
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On June 19 2009 00:21 Heen wrote:Also, I have trouble eating after pulling an all-nighter. I know I should be hungry after 10+ hours of no food but I have no appetite I didn't actually have a whole lot of trouble going to the dining hall for "breakfast" during all nighters in college. As long as I was still up and going, I'd continue to get hungry. Possibly related though is that I do often have difficulty eating after a night of short sleep - if I get some sleep but have to get up way earlier than I should for the time I went to bed, my stomach usually doesn't feel so good in the morning and food just doesn't sound to good. I suspect this has to do with the fact that low sleep has messed up your biological rhythms and it carries over from sleep into other things as well. Generally I've found that even though my stomach doesn't seem to feel like food, it can actually still take it just fine. I usually do something fairly light and bland, like just toast and juice, to get my system the energy it really needs to get a day started without upsetting it too much. It may not feel that great while eating it, but at least for me, I've never had any trouble keeping it down in those cases, so I go ahead and eat it because I know my body really does need it.
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On June 22 2009 17:56 Uraeus wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2009 05:24 HuskyTheHusky wrote: I also love the post from the air traffic controller, good stuff! I guess that was me. Thank you. Show nested quote +On June 22 2009 15:38 micronesia wrote: I'm surprised nobody expressed a specific interest in either shift work, jet lag, or infants' sleep. I'd be willing to provide a little extra on any of those. I am actually interested in tips about shift work. My shift patern is as follows : Day 1 : early morning shift : ie wake up @ 5:30 or so Day 2 : day shift : wake up between 7:30 and 9:00 (depending on the actual shift) Day 3 : late afternoon shift or night shift, so I wake up naturally between 8 and 9 usually Days 4 & 5 : days off (wake up between 8 & 9) Days 6 & 7 : new shift pattern (ie, day 1 & 2 again) or days off if last shift was a night shift I have 2 problems. First one is, I can never get to sleep early before an early morning shift. I usually fall asleep around 12:00 (as usual), and 5,5h of sleep is more often than not too little sleep for me. I often feel sleepy all day long but cannot always nap. Funny (?) thing is, the moment of the day I feel most awake is between 10 and 12 PM. What can ruin my night, and subsequently my following day. When I manage to get around 7 hours of sleep, early mornings feel like normal days, so a few tips to fall asleep 1h earlier would be welcome. Second problem is some night shifts. They come in 4 kind, 3 of which cause me no problem. The problemtic shift starts @ 8 PM. I work until 12PM or so, then have dinner at work with my whole working team until 1:30 AM (!) , and then start working again from 3:30 AM till 6:30. I often "sleep" from 2:00 to 3:30, but this is way not enough. I have trouble staying awake through the rest of the shift. I could have dinner before going to work and hence sleep between 12:00 and 3:30, but I don't feel sleepy at all at 12 PM (and I would miss the whole social aspect of having dinner with my colleagues, what would lower my popularity as much as, say, praising GG.net on a TL.net forum). Any idea of what could get me through the night ? Thnks a lot for your guide again. Too bad you didn't get that Beta key. Refer to this addendum (managing shift work):
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=96030
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Thanks micronesia, that was interesting stuff.
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Thanks, starting to read your addendum right now !
Edit : just finished reading. Interesting stuff again. I will definitely try some of your advice very soon.
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Thanks for pointing me to this thread Micronesia. Bumping to give other people a chance to read it who haven't yet. Also I have a question. I've done my own research and seen a lot of this material before, also I have spoken to doctors and a sleep therapist who gave similar advice. My main problem is being prevented from getting regular sleeping times coupled with DSPD. In the first case it's due to my heavy university workload. I am not in a position to change that at the moment so have all but resigned myself to insomnia for the time being. My question is, since I can't address the root cause of my insomnia, i.e., I can't go to bed, is there anything I can do to mitigate sleepyness during the day? (My mind becomes alert at night even when I haven't slept for a few days but I have low points during the day where I will lose concentration or fall asleep momentarily in class).
To clarify, I have no trouble sleeping when I go to bed, I have trouble going to bed (which is why zopiclone didn't work for me).
Also you mention that lack of sleep isn't harmful in and of itself. However I would like to point out that lack of sleep reduces ability of the body to recuperate and recover itself. For example I was hospitilsed after sleeping two nights out of eight due to intense muscular pain and spasms. The muscles were tensed up working at a desk and hadn't been able to relax and recover through sleep.
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thanks for the thread micronesia. i missed it the first time, and also have issues getting to sleep sometimes. will definitely read this soon.
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On October 22 2009 00:10 ThunderGod wrote: Thanks for pointing me to this thread Micronesia. Bumping to give other people a chance to read it who haven't yet. Also I have a question. I've done my own research and seen a lot of this material before, also I have spoken to doctors and a sleep therapist who gave similar advice. My main problem is being prevented from getting regular sleeping times coupled with DSPD. In the first case it's due to my heavy university workload. I am not in a position to change that at the moment so have all but resigned myself to insomnia for the time being. My question is, since I can't address the root cause of my insomnia, i.e., I can't go to bed, is there anything I can do to mitigate sleepyness during the day? (My mind becomes alert at night even when I haven't slept for a few days but I have low points during the day where I will lose concentration or fall asleep momentarily in class).
To clarify, I have no trouble sleeping when I go to bed, I have trouble going to bed (which is why zopiclone didn't work for me).
Also you mention that lack of sleep isn't harmful in and of itself. However I would like to point out that lack of sleep reduces ability of the body to recuperate and recover itself. For example I was hospitilsed after sleeping two nights out of eight due to intense muscular pain and spasms. The muscles were tensed up working at a desk and hadn't been able to relax and recover through sleep. Interesting about the problem you had with your muscles... was not aware of that particular threat but it makes sense. Still, sleeping 2 nights out of 8 is pretty extreme sleep deprivation and is not what most people here suffer from so I'll stand by what I've said for the most part.
Regarding your sleep problems, it sounds like your problem is not insomnia. Insomnia is an inability to sleep properly when trying to. You are having trouble allocating time for sleep to begin with? If so, most likely there are ways to make a little bit more time which may not be enough to fully make up for your drowsiness etc, but might take the edge off. If I am wrong about this then please explain.
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Interesting guide Micronesia.
However, I think a few key elements to promote good sleep is missing here. Pardon me if I didn't notice them, I tried to skim through it all.
* Cut Caffeine * Exercise. Do intensive cardiovascular activity and your sleep will improve without a doubt. * Do more stuff in general, don't just sit around all day * TAKE MAGNESIUM SUPPLEMENTS
I will go into magnesium a bit more, since it's been found to make people sleep better. Because of how much magnesium that is depleted every day and the scarcity of it in food, most people don't get their daily recommended intake.
Solution: Buy a magnesium supplement. DON'T buy Magnesiumoxide, it has ridiculously bad bioavailability (something like 2% get's absorbed in your body). I ready a study on pubmed about the bioavailability of different kinds of magnesium. Either get magnesium-glycinate/taurate/lactate/citrate/malatate most preferrably. Magnesiumaspartate is fine too unless you are hyperactive or something similar, since aspartate is a precursor to aspartam, which raises several catecholamines (stress hormones) in your brain.
tl;dr: Buy Magnesium supplements and take 30-60 minutes before sleep on an empty stomach. (not magnesiumoxide).
Do report back if this helped anyone, which I'm sure it will.
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United States24342 Posts
On October 22 2009 05:01 Foucault wrote: Interesting guide Micronesia.
However, I think a few key elements to promote good sleep is missing here. Pardon me if I didn't notice them, I tried to skim through it all.
* Cut Caffeine * Exercise. Do intensive cardiovascular activity and your sleep will improve without a doubt. * Do more stuff in general, don't just sit around all day * TAKE MAGNESIUM SUPPLEMENTS
I will go into magnesium a bit more, since it's been found to make people sleep better. Because of how much magnesium that is depleted every day and the scarcity of it in food, most people don't get their daily recommended intake.
Solution: Buy a magnesium supplement. DON'T buy Magnesiumoxide, it has ridiculously bad bioavailability (something like 2% get's absorbed in your body). I ready a study on pubmed about the bioavailability of different kinds of magnesium. Either get magnesium-glycinate/taurate/lactate/citrate/malatate most preferrably. Magnesiumaspartate is fine too unless you are hyperactive or something similar, since aspartate is a precursor to aspartam, which raises several catecholamines (stress hormones) in your brain.
tl;dr: Buy Magnesium supplements and take 30-60 minutes before sleep on an empty stomach. (not magnesiumoxide).
Do report back if this helped anyone, which I'm sure it will. Cutting caffeine is a good idea (although a pretty obvious solution I think). I did talk about exercise. Do more stuff in general is a good point. Magnesium supplements I can neither agree with nor argue against due to my lack of knowledge on them, but I generally stand by my earlier comment that medicine/supplements are not a good first step towards solving sleeping related problems. Maybe for some people your suggestion is a good one though.
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Nice guide Micro. I have insomnia and some symptoms of narcolepsy. I'll definitely try some of this out. You need to start playing SC again though.
I can't stand it when someone posts a well written article and people complain that it's too long. You can't get everything in 2 paragraphs people.
Did I mention you need to start playing more SC?
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On October 22 2009 07:25 Loophole wrote: Nice guide Micro. I have insomnia and some symptoms of narcolepsy. I'll definitely try some of this out. You need to start playing SC again though.
I can't stand it when someone posts a well written article and people complain that it's too long. You can't get everything in 2 paragraphs people.
Did I mention you need to start playing more SC? I play a game or two a week I guess lol.... pretty busy and trying to become gosu in golf.
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On October 22 2009 07:13 micronesia wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2009 05:01 Foucault wrote: Interesting guide Micronesia.
However, I think a few key elements to promote good sleep is missing here. Pardon me if I didn't notice them, I tried to skim through it all.
* Cut Caffeine * Exercise. Do intensive cardiovascular activity and your sleep will improve without a doubt. * Do more stuff in general, don't just sit around all day * TAKE MAGNESIUM SUPPLEMENTS
I will go into magnesium a bit more, since it's been found to make people sleep better. Because of how much magnesium that is depleted every day and the scarcity of it in food, most people don't get their daily recommended intake.
Solution: Buy a magnesium supplement. DON'T buy Magnesiumoxide, it has ridiculously bad bioavailability (something like 2% get's absorbed in your body). I ready a study on pubmed about the bioavailability of different kinds of magnesium. Either get magnesium-glycinate/taurate/lactate/citrate/malatate most preferrably. Magnesiumaspartate is fine too unless you are hyperactive or something similar, since aspartate is a precursor to aspartam, which raises several catecholamines (stress hormones) in your brain.
tl;dr: Buy Magnesium supplements and take 30-60 minutes before sleep on an empty stomach. (not magnesiumoxide).
Do report back if this helped anyone, which I'm sure it will. Cutting caffeine is a good idea (although a pretty obvious solution I think). I did talk about exercise. Do more stuff in general is a good point. Magnesium supplements I can neither agree with nor argue against due to my lack of knowledge on them, but I generally stand by my earlier comment that medicine/supplements are not a good first step towards solving sleeping related problems. Maybe for some people your suggestion is a good one though.
I suggest people to give it a try since there are no risks involved whatsoever and magnesium only does good regarding sleep, helping the muscles in your body to relax, lower your heart rate and epinephrine release, boost GABA etc.
Magnesium is a mineral that we get through food every day so I don't consider it a medicine or "unnatural" aid per se. The problem is that magnesium defiency and sleep are closely related and the fact that a huge amount of americans don't get their recommended daily intake of magnesium makes supplementing magnesium quite favorable. The fact that magnesium is also depleted through stress, exercise, caffeine and other stimulants makes it even more likely for many people today to suffer from magnesium deficiency.
"There is a close association between sleep architecture, especially slow wave sleep, and activity in the glutamatergic and gamma-aminobutyric acid (GABA)ergic system. Because magnesium is a natural N-methyl-D-aspartate (NMDA)antagonist and GABA agonist, magnesium apparently plays a key role in the regulation of sleep. Such a role is supported by supplementation, correlation, and animal studies showing that magnesium intake or status affects sleep organization.
"Other researchers have found in both human and animal studies that magnesium deficiency results in sleep disturbances, such as agitated sleep and frequent periods of awakenings. This has been related to changes in electrical activity in the brain. It looks like magnesium is important for a good night sleep."
http://www.ars.usda.gov/News/docs.htm?docid=10874
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On that note, it's a rule of thumb that an excess of ANY metal in your system will reflect poorly on your health.
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On October 22 2009 07:53 fanatacist wrote: On that note, it's a rule of thumb that an excess of ANY metal in your system will reflect poorly on your health.
Yeah except that you won't get any excess magnesium in your body because it's water soluable.
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On October 22 2009 07:56 Foucault wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2009 07:53 fanatacist wrote: On that note, it's a rule of thumb that an excess of ANY metal in your system will reflect poorly on your health. Yeah except that you won't get any excess magnesium in your body because it's water soluable. And there is no saturation point? I wouldn't know, but everything I know of has a saturation point.
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United States24342 Posts
Foucault my sleep problems are mostly gone right now (thanks to what I learned when preparing to write my guide) so I'm going to just keep doing what I'm doing although I'll keep my eyes open for more information about magnesium.
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On October 22 2009 07:59 fanatacist wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2009 07:56 Foucault wrote:On October 22 2009 07:53 fanatacist wrote: On that note, it's a rule of thumb that an excess of ANY metal in your system will reflect poorly on your health. Yeah except that you won't get any excess magnesium in your body because it's water soluable. And there is no saturation point? I wouldn't know, but everything I know of has a saturation point.
Surely but magnesium has a wide margin for usage. And unless you eat HUGE amounts of Magnesium it won't be toxic since it isn't stored in the liver unlike some fat-soluble vitamins/minerals like A, D and E and alot of metals.
Basically there's nothing to worry about whatsoever if you supplement magnesium because 1) Many things deplete magnesium from our bodys on a daily basis and 2) The bioavailability isn't 100%. This means that if a magnesium supplement says 300 mg magnesium, it's hugely dependant on what the magnesium is bound to. If it's magnesiumoxide your body takes up something like 2% of that 300 mg, for other sorts of magnesium the amount your body takes up is vastly bigger but never 300 mg.
I think the RDI for young adults in america is 400 mg daily, and this is way low considering many people ate 1000 mg daily a 100 years ago due to food being less processed and other factors. Also it's actually quite hard to get more than like 200 mg from typical daily food because high magnesium is mainly found in sunflower seeds and some sorts of beans which isn't typical for most people to eat. Also alot of stuff drive magnesium out of your body such as calcium, stress and caffeine.
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On October 22 2009 08:05 micronesia wrote: Foucault my sleep problems are mostly gone right now (thanks to what I learned when preparing to write my guide) so I'm going to just keep doing what I'm doing although I'll keep my eyes open for more information about magnesium.
Ok that's great and I applaude your guide because it's thorough and adressed many issues of insomnia. But the underlying issue with sleeping will many times be worsened by or caused by magnesium, since sleep after all is a biological function which magnesium governs to a large degree. Now, mental stress and what not draws out magnesium from your system which will make the problem worse, and at the same time magnesium promotes healthy neural activity which involves sleep and mood.
So it's all connected, body and mind.
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On October 22 2009 08:10 Foucault wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2009 07:59 fanatacist wrote:On October 22 2009 07:56 Foucault wrote:On October 22 2009 07:53 fanatacist wrote: On that note, it's a rule of thumb that an excess of ANY metal in your system will reflect poorly on your health. Yeah except that you won't get any excess magnesium in your body because it's water soluable. And there is no saturation point? I wouldn't know, but everything I know of has a saturation point. Surely but magnesium has a wide margin for usage. And unless you eat HUGE amounts of Magnesium it won't be toxic since it isn't stored in the liver unlike some fat-soluble vitamins/minerals like A, D and E and alot of metals. Basically there's nothing to worry about whatsoever if you supplement magnesium because 1) Many things deplete magnesium from our bodys on a daily basis and 2) The bioavailability isn't 100%. This means that if a magnesium supplement says 300 mg magnesium, it's hugely dependant on what the magnesium is bound to. If it's magnesiumoxide your body takes up something like 2% of that 300 mg, for other sorts of magnesium the amount your body takes up is vastly bigger but never 300 mg. I think the RDI for young adults in america is 400 mg daily, and this is way low considering many people ate 1000 mg daily a 100 years ago due to food being less processed and other factors. Also it's actually quite hard to get more than like 200 mg from typical daily food because high magnesium is mainly found in sunflower seeds and some sorts of beans which isn't typical for most people to eat. Also alot of stuff drive magnesium out of your body such as calcium, stress and caffeine. Cool n_n; Didn't know. Is this related to your job/major somehow?
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great thread, I can't believe I missed it the first time :O
thanks!
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On October 22 2009 08:16 fanatacist wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2009 08:10 Foucault wrote:On October 22 2009 07:59 fanatacist wrote:On October 22 2009 07:56 Foucault wrote:On October 22 2009 07:53 fanatacist wrote: On that note, it's a rule of thumb that an excess of ANY metal in your system will reflect poorly on your health. Yeah except that you won't get any excess magnesium in your body because it's water soluable. And there is no saturation point? I wouldn't know, but everything I know of has a saturation point. Surely but magnesium has a wide margin for usage. And unless you eat HUGE amounts of Magnesium it won't be toxic since it isn't stored in the liver unlike some fat-soluble vitamins/minerals like A, D and E and alot of metals. Basically there's nothing to worry about whatsoever if you supplement magnesium because 1) Many things deplete magnesium from our bodys on a daily basis and 2) The bioavailability isn't 100%. This means that if a magnesium supplement says 300 mg magnesium, it's hugely dependant on what the magnesium is bound to. If it's magnesiumoxide your body takes up something like 2% of that 300 mg, for other sorts of magnesium the amount your body takes up is vastly bigger but never 300 mg. I think the RDI for young adults in america is 400 mg daily, and this is way low considering many people ate 1000 mg daily a 100 years ago due to food being less processed and other factors. Also it's actually quite hard to get more than like 200 mg from typical daily food because high magnesium is mainly found in sunflower seeds and some sorts of beans which isn't typical for most people to eat. Also alot of stuff drive magnesium out of your body such as calcium, stress and caffeine. Cool n_n; Didn't know. Is this related to your job/major somehow?
Not really, I've just read a HUGE amount of articles and research on vitamins/minerals and exercise is a big interest of mine.
Random fact: Did you know for example that the molecular structure of valium and benzos was created by pharmacologists trying to copy the exact structure of vitamin B3, which binds to the same neuro-transmitters as benzos and is anxiolytic in higher doses.
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I was just having some sleep problems, so came back and reread this guide and its been helping me.
Worth the bump I think if other people can get some help from it too.
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I'm going to bump this as well because it's been helping me lately. I finally fell asleep after 3 days in a row awake in which even sleeping pills stopped working
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I don't mean to shit all over your long post, but I'm gonna go ahead and and say that I used to have sleeping problems(minor), and I just started exercising, moving around a lot more(not being lazy to do stuff), and I started eating better and smarter, but the main thing that I feel really helped me was cannabis before going to sleep. I know you said drugs shouldn't be the first outlet to try but I feel as if it did wonders for me; and btw I don't condone any other drugs for sleeping and I think sleeping pills are horrible.
But yea marijuana did wonders for me, now I easily go to sleep without smoking because I slowly stopped smoking before sleeping and I get so tired from exercising and doing stuff all day that I cant imagine not hitting the sack(no pun intended lol).
You eat good, exercise good, smoke good(marijuana is one of if not the best stress reliever known to us), and your body and mind(as foucault pointed out) have no choice but to sleep good.
sweet dreams my friends :z
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I'm sure there is little science to it, but I have a great deal falling asleep in silent darkness. My brain just will not turn off if there is no input to the system, however with a show or music or movie or even if I focus on the white noise of the computer I can quiet my mind. But ya, my head goes to all kinda of weird places in SILENT darkness.
Also I have found that smoking a small amount of weed 5 or 10 minutes before bed will set things perfectly as well. Nothing like some plant to get things working. xD
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Great guide, I used to be an insomniac, and followed very similar methods. I sleep like a baby now.
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Thank you for the read. For years I've been sleeping bad. Constant questions about sleep spooked through my head. The questions surely will disappear because of your write-up.
Thanks.
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Nice writing macro ability you got there, micro!
Nice read aswell
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Great job and initiative writing the guide. I like it.
As someone studying psychology there are a few things I feel I have to bring up.
On June 14 2009 10:35 micronesia wrote: [Guide]
What about psychotherapy? Will that help me?
Not only is psychotherapy expensive and time-consuming, but it is usually ineffective in treating insomnia. This is because insomnia is not usually caused by psychological problems. Furthermore, wrongfully believing that your insomnia is caused by problems of the psyche induces feelings of helplessness and lowered self-esteem which can contribute towards increasing the severity of insomnia symptoms. Most importantly, there is no scientific proof that psychotherapy is effective for treating insomnia. Of course, there may be times when psychotherapy is appropriate, so keep that in mind.
I can see how your target audience for this guide is everyday people who are having trouble sleeping. It's not the group that must seek a therapist.
At the same time, I think calling it out to be detrimental and having an effect on the self-esteem with feelings of shamefulness is just too much. From a cognitive standpoint I don't see a rational reason why visiting a therapist needs to be shameful.
Because the thing is your entire guide is based on a cognitive behavioural therapy just as it is done in CBT psychotherapy only here it is in written form. I don't see how doing the same things that are in your guide, but with a therapist, would be such a bad thing. I'm not saying that everyone needs it, in fact I think written guides like this could be just right for most people.
But you say that psychotherapy has no scientific proof as an effective treatment, yet there are many well performed studies giving empirical support for CBT being effective in treating insomnia[here: clinical diagnosis not your broader definition]. This exact evidence is what I assume Gregg Jacobs book is based on, and in turn your guide. Only the book probably hasn't been in randomized clinical trials.
I'm getting a bit argumentative, not really my intention. Maybe you're in fact talking about psychodynamic therapy because as far as I know there is no scientific support for that being effective and I would suddenly agree with the whole paragraph except the self-esteem and shame. But as a future CBT-psychologist (even though I doubt I'll work with it) I felt I had to write few things.
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United States24342 Posts
On April 03 2011 05:04 Sablar wrote:Great job and initiative writing the guide. I like it. As someone studying psychology there are a few things I feel I have to bring up. Show nested quote +On June 14 2009 10:35 micronesia wrote: [Guide]
What about psychotherapy? Will that help me?
Not only is psychotherapy expensive and time-consuming, but it is usually ineffective in treating insomnia. This is because insomnia is not usually caused by psychological problems. Furthermore, wrongfully believing that your insomnia is caused by problems of the psyche induces feelings of helplessness and lowered self-esteem which can contribute towards increasing the severity of insomnia symptoms. Most importantly, there is no scientific proof that psychotherapy is effective for treating insomnia. Of course, there may be times when psychotherapy is appropriate, so keep that in mind.
I can see how your target audience for this guide is everyday people who are having trouble sleeping. It's not the group that must seek a therapist. At the same time, I think calling it out to be detrimental and having an effect on the self-esteem with feelings of shamefulness is just too much. From a cognitive standpoint I don't see a rational reason why visiting a therapist needs to be shameful. Because the thing is your entire guide is based on a cognitive behavioural therapy just as it is done in CBT psychotherapy only here it is in written form. I don't see how doing the same things that are in your guide, but with a therapist, would be such a bad thing. I'm not saying that everyone needs it, in fact I think written guides like this could be just right for most people. But you say that psychotherapy has no scientific proof as an effective treatment, yet there are many well performed studies giving empirical support for CBT being effective in treating insomnia[here: clinical diagnosis not your broader definition]. This exact evidence is what I assume Gregg Jacobs book is based on, and in turn your guide. Only the book probably hasn't been in randomized clinical trials. I'm getting a bit argumentative, not really my intention. Maybe you're in fact talking about psychodynamic therapy because as far as I know there is no scientific support for that being effective and I would suddenly agree with the whole paragraph except the self-esteem and shame. But as a future CBT-psychologist (even though I doubt I'll work with it) I felt I had to write few things. Hm I think a bit of miss communication... I'm not saying you should feel shameful for needing therapy, or anything like that. I'm saying if you don't need psychotherapy you shouldn't get it. If you are unable to treat your insomnia by yourself then getting help from someone else makes sense.... but getting it before you need it could make your recovery more drawn out.
Also what I've written is slightly outdated in terms of recent scientific findings. But yes the guide is meant to try to help people before they seek out any type of a professional.... it definitely cannot help everyone and I am not an expert.
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great post man, but my problems is staying up browsing the web and playing sc2. T_T
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United States24342 Posts
On April 03 2011 05:23 evanthebouncy! wrote: great post man, but my problems is staying up browsing the web and playing sc2. T_T Yes I had similar problems when I considered myself an insomniac. Also I'm using Flux which is a program that dims your monitor a bit at night... not going to specifically recommend it though as I can't make any promises about it... but it seems to help me a bit.
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OH GOD. THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU.
I really have nothing else to say. Just mad props. And also thanks to the guy who bumped it.
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Ok Guys. Im a guy who sleeps in very long and has a hard time getting up. Also often have dificulty going to sleep. I found a solution and also know the how i get into this bad sleeping schedule now, so i want to share what i found out. So what happened in my normal sleep behavior was. i look at the time in the evening, saying to myself, man i should go to bed if i want to get to my lectures on time. But im not tired, like alot of you, so i surf the net/watch some shows bla bla. Then i go to bed, feeling a little sleepy but not that much. I try to sleep, but as for alot of you, my thoughts start racing(not always alot bu sometimes i stay up in bed like 40-60mins. Obviously that sucks. Then in the morning, i get up if i hear the alarm, which takes alot of willpower, oftentimes i roll over to the side go to sleep for another 30-40 mins and have some weird dreams.
When i have nothing to do for the day its even worse. I wake up, go to sleep, wake up ,go to sleep. The longer the holidays with nothing to do and no events that require getting up early, i go to bed later and later and wake up later too.
Now why is that? Why does this vicious cycle go on and on and on. The one major reasons, that all others are suplemental to, is sleep quality. Sleep quality sucks, you sleep longer, take longer to get up, take longer to wind down and suddenly you have a 28 hour cycle or something. Now for me one of the major things with getting this undone, was sleeping at the right time. And for me and i believe for most humans, this time is between the sun going down and the sun rising. That is because when the sunlight hits you, your body naturally wakes up and when it gets dark your body winds down. Looking at my morning routine i see, when i wake up at 11-12 i never feel awake. There is always drowsynes that pulls me back to sleep. The sun is trying to wake me up, my body is trying to get more sleep. So to fix this, i needed to go to bed way earlier. I tried often to go to bed 1 hour earlier each day, but that didnt work out, as for proably alot of you.
Now second method. Pulling an all nighter, or sleeping very little one day and waking up super early. This didnt work out for me in the past. But after having to get up early for an exam, it did.
What did i do? I simply stayed up. In earlier tries i either went to bed early like 18-20 or late 20-23. What happened was, i either sleept for like 5-6 hours and was awake in the middle of the night, tried to get some more sleep and then slept through to 11-12 or just slept through to 11-12.
Obviously very devestating. This time i went to bed early and woke up in the middle of the night like 3:00 but didnt go to bed again. I fought my way through to 21:00 went to bed and woke up at like 5:00. You can, see where this is going. I fit more and more into this natural cycle of going to bed at like 22:00-22:30 and waking up at like 7:00, when the rays of morning sunlight brace my face, feeling rested. It was actually easy to get up. At night time, i felt profoundly tired. As soon as the feeling would come over me i would go to bed pretty quickly. No reading or other activity to wind down like usually.
Now you may say, dude just block out the sun. Close down your windows. But i think it is not that simple. First the sun light helps you to wake up and stay awake. Even though i would say, get woken up prematurly by the sun is worse than having no sunlight. But still when i woke up in the range of 2-3 i would feel very tired after i while usually around 5-7 and it would carry on, even though getting lighter, to like 12:00 . The second thing is, beeing up at the normal hours gets you more activity, which makes more tired in the evening. There is a large diference if you fill 3-4 hours on the computer, with 3-4 hours, in the city, or in a park, or simply cleaning up your place.
The last 2 parts, that are important , are eating and habit. For eating, i think its important to not eat well in advance of sleeping anything that gives power. Dont have a big dinner, of meat and carbs and sweets, like i often did for myself late at night. You will feel tired after eating, but this is not a good time to sleep. And after an hour or two energy will start to rise strongly and keep beeing there. That mixed with not feeling sleepy, because you havent been awake long enough, is part of what keeps your thoughts racing in bed.
For habit, people often try to change the habit itself, which never really worked for me. Go to bed earlier! Stop thinking and go to sleep! Get up immedietly! Many of you have probably tried doing and saying this to yourself. But it is tremendously hard, because of the physiogical state of yourself. Some people might say, " dude just have discipline". But does figurativly smasching your head against a wall till it breaks really require more discipline? How about just going around that wall? It was so easy for me to get into the habit of a healthy sleep cycle once conditions were met and those habits actually enforced by my body and having success. Dont try to just magically change your habits, they will grow and provide a savety-net for you over time. Your old habits are going to stay there also and it is easy to slip back into them, which happened to me 2 times already, but it is also possible to stay in this healthy cycle and not try to move a mountain everytime you wake up and try to get up.
Hope this helps some people, who have similar problems.
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i've just been awake for 24 hours. GOODNIGHT
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My record is about ~30 hours of being awake
I've noticed that the more I study, the more difficult it is to fall asleep. This peaked when I was studying for Calculus 3 finals, I was staring at the ceiling for 8 hours straight instead of sleeping.
Also, sometimes I just fall asleep in the middle of the day, taking a nap anywhere within the 1..9 hour range.
Otherwise I have a healthy 27 hour cycle :3
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+ Show Spoiler +On April 03 2011 06:47 Siniyas wrote: Ok Guys. Im a guy who sleeps in very long and has a hard time getting up. Also often have dificulty going to sleep. I found a solution and also know the how i get into this bad sleeping schedule now, so i want to share what i found out. So what happened in my normal sleep behavior was. i look at the time in the evening, saying to myself, man i should go to bed if i want to get to my lectures on time. But im not tired, like alot of you, so i surf the net/watch some shows bla bla. Then i go to bed, feeling a little sleepy but not that much. I try to sleep, but as for alot of you, my thoughts start racing(not always alot bu sometimes i stay up in bed like 40-60mins. Obviously that sucks. Then in the morning, i get up if i hear the alarm, which takes alot of willpower, oftentimes i roll over to the side go to sleep for another 30-40 mins and have some weird dreams.
When i have nothing to do for the day its even worse. I wake up, go to sleep, wake up ,go to sleep. The longer the holidays with nothing to do and no events that require getting up early, i go to bed later and later and wake up later too.
Now why is that? Why does this vicious cycle go on and on and on. The one major reasons, that all others are suplemental to, is sleep quality. Sleep quality sucks, you sleep longer, take longer to get up, take longer to wind down and suddenly you have a 28 hour cycle or something. Now for me one of the major things with getting this undone, was sleeping at the right time. And for me and i believe for most humans, this time is between the sun going down and the sun rising. That is because when the sunlight hits you, your body naturally wakes up and when it gets dark your body winds down. Looking at my morning routine i see, when i wake up at 11-12 i never feel awake. There is always drowsynes that pulls me back to sleep. The sun is trying to wake me up, my body is trying to get more sleep. So to fix this, i needed to go to bed way earlier. I tried often to go to bed 1 hour earlier each day, but that didnt work out, as for proably alot of you.
Now second method. Pulling an all nighter, or sleeping very little one day and waking up super early. This didnt work out for me in the past. But after having to get up early for an exam, it did.
What did i do? I simply stayed up. In earlier tries i either went to bed early like 18-20 or late 20-23. What happened was, i either sleept for like 5-6 hours and was awake in the middle of the night, tried to get some more sleep and then slept through to 11-12 or just slept through to 11-12.
Obviously very devestating. This time i went to bed early and woke up in the middle of the night like 3:00 but didnt go to bed again. I fought my way through to 21:00 went to bed and woke up at like 5:00. You can, see where this is going. I fit more and more into this natural cycle of going to bed at like 22:00-22:30 and waking up at like 7:00, when the rays of morning sunlight brace my face, feeling rested. It was actually easy to get up. At night time, i felt profoundly tired. As soon as the feeling would come over me i would go to bed pretty quickly. No reading or other activity to wind down like usually.
Now you may say, dude just block out the sun. Close down your windows. But i think it is not that simple. First the sun light helps you to wake up and stay awake. Even though i would say, get woken up prematurly by the sun is worse than having no sunlight. But still when i woke up in the range of 2-3 i would feel very tired after i while usually around 5-7 and it would carry on, even though getting lighter, to like 12:00 . The second thing is, beeing up at the normal hours gets you more activity, which makes more tired in the evening. There is a large diference if you fill 3-4 hours on the computer, with 3-4 hours, in the city, or in a park, or simply cleaning up your place.
The last 2 parts, that are important , are eating and habit. For eating, i think its important to not eat well in advance of sleeping anything that gives power. Dont have a big dinner, of meat and carbs and sweets, like i often did for myself late at night. You will feel tired after eating, but this is not a good time to sleep. And after an hour or two energy will start to rise strongly and keep beeing there. That mixed with not feeling sleepy, because you havent been awake long enough, is part of what keeps your thoughts racing in bed.
For habit, people often try to change the habit itself, which never really worked for me. Go to bed earlier! Stop thinking and go to sleep! Get up immedietly! Many of you have probably tried doing and saying this to yourself. But it is tremendously hard, because of the physiogical state of yourself. Some people might say, " dude just have discipline". But does figurativly smasching your head against a wall till it breaks really require more discipline? How about just going around that wall? It was so easy for me to get into the habit of a healthy sleep cycle once conditions were met and those habits actually enforced by my body and having success. Dont try to just magically change your habits, they will grow and provide a savety-net for you over time. Your old habits are going to stay there also and it is easy to slip back into them, which happened to me 2 times already, but it is also possible to stay in this healthy cycle and not try to move a mountain everytime you wake up and try to get up.
Hope this helps some people, who have similar problems.
It is nice that you managed to straighten your sleep habits, however i tried to do this many times and the result was horrible. Earlier i go to sleep, the longer i sleep and more tired i feel when i wake up. I am lately getting app. 5 hours of sleep during week nights and 8-10 hours during weekends. However i feel very tired in the evening between 18-20pm, sometimes i even crash during these hours and then i can't fall asleep again before 2 am and the circle continous. The worst thing is when i start to sleep too much, there are days when i sleep from 3 am. until 15pm and i even fall asleep again at 17-18pm cause i feel so tired.
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I feel like I should bump this because it helped me alot. You should really post a link to the Flux program in the OP.
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United States24342 Posts
On September 13 2011 08:13 Retgery wrote: I feel like I should bump this because it helped me alot. You should really post a link to the Flux program in the OP. I just noticed this bump of yours because.... someone made a thread about the flux program haha XD
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I convinced myself, despite being awake, or feeling awake, that i was falling asleep. Fell asleep within the hour, instead of the usual 1.5-2
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Very nice guide! Since this is an active area of interest for me, I had a couple of comments.
Do a lot of people on tl have Delayed Phase Disorder?
Probably. Delayed Phase Disorder is the tendency to be unable to fall asleep until 3am or 4am, but then get a good 7-8 hours of sleep. The opposite can also occur where you have trouble staying awake past 8pm (elderly people for example). These problems can be treated with artificial bright-light boxes that simulate the sun and adjust your body temperature cycle to a more appropriate time. However, bright-light boxes are not required. This is especially true on bright mornings where you can go outside in order to jump-start your wakefulness system (just don't wear sunglasses). I agree that this is very likely affecting gamers - including myself! Even light from a computer screen is plenty bright to reset the circadian clock - although the Flux program may indeed help that, as the circadian clock is sensitive to shorter wavelength light that the visual system. The really important message here is: Light exposure near or after your bedtime will delay your circadian clock. That means the next night, your body will want to go to bed later. So now if you try to go to bed at the same time as the night before, you may experience insomnia. Because the body has its own clock, you cannot just choose when you want to go to bed - the body anticipates an expected bedtime based on your behavior on prior days. That's what makes weekend to weekday transitions particularly hard - when you abruptly shift to an earlier schedule on Sunday/Monday you are effectively jet-lagged. The way to keep your body on an earlier schedule is to cut out light exposure near bedtime, and increase light exposure in the morning after you wake up.
Does this mean that you should panic if you realize you are going to get less than five and a half hours of sleep? Certainly not. Even if you are getting as little as three hours of sleep per night (as is the case with some demanding professions or at certain times), you can function without significant consequences (think of the Apollo 13 astronauts who slept three hours a night and yet performed the operations to get the ship back to Earth safely).
The idea of 'core' sleep isn't very well founded - especially since we still have a pretty loose grasp on what sleep is actually doing from a functional perspective. There is evidence that regularly sleeping 6 h per night results in measurable cognitive deficits relative to sleeping 8 h per night, and that these deficits continue to accumulate almost linearly day by day over a period of 2 weeks (see Van Dongen et al., Sleep, 2003). Worse still, subjective assessments of performance level out after a few days under these conditions, meaning if you're chronically deprived of sleep, you're probably no longer even aware of how poorly you're functioning!
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Absolutely incredible guide. Thanks for taking the time to post it, micro. I'm going to start applying some of this to my sleeping habits ASAP to hopefully alleviate some of the stress I've accumulated due to sleeplessness lately.
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thanks a lot for writing this guide, i haven't read the entirety of it yet, but it started out be amazing. i could notice a lot of similarities to the basics of psychology and pedagogy which i learned in school for 2 years, so that guide was very convincing for me.
was a great read so far, thanks for the effort!
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Very nice. Everyone here, especially progamers, need this guide. I suffered Insomnia my Junior year of college and thankfully grew out of it. Others don't have that luxury.
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On April 11 2011 23:47 Ricjames wrote:
It is nice that you managed to straighten your sleep habits, however i tried to do this many times and the result was horrible. Earlier i go to sleep, the longer i sleep and more tired i feel when i wake up. I am lately getting app. 5 hours of sleep during week nights and 8-10 hours during weekends. However i feel very tired in the evening between 18-20pm, sometimes i even crash during these hours and then i can't fall asleep again before 2 am and the circle continous. The worst thing is when i start to sleep too much, there are days when i sleep from 3 am. until 15pm and i even fall asleep again at 17-18pm cause i feel so tired.
you should let a dentist check if you grind your teeth during night, there might be tentions in your muscles during sleep if you do so. that prevents a relaxing and refreshing sleep. you get a thingy to put on a row of teeth, which is supposed to prevent that, but it apparently doesn't work in my case
it's worth to ask it, next time when you're at the dentist!
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Really nice post. I found it very educational and it shed some light on why I have a hard time falling asleep. I also liked how you talked about if we really need 8 hours of sleep. Was a long read but it was completely worth it, thx =D
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Thx for bumping this. And thx micro for making it. I am a terrible sleeper maybe this will help. I'm happy if i take less then 2 hours to fall asleep. And if i don't put an alarm clock i'll wake up at 5pm on the weekends (after going to bed at 3)...
always refused sleeping pills because i found them stupid. They don't treat the cause, therefore are u gonna take pills all your life ? I'd rather have bad sleep then being on medication for life.
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Ooh, a rather pleasant surprise to see this guide/thread and I have to say Micro, you did quite a amazing job at writing this all out.
As someone who is suffering from Insomnia for over 10 years now I can see you did your reasarch (as much as has been researched) on this subject and you put forth alot of informative and, most important, helpfull things in this guide for people who suffer from Insomnia to help them treat this. Though I would like to not that it's more so for the "lighter cases" of Insomnia that this guide is meant too as for me the guide will not help me treat my Insomnia in any way, not that I expected anything else to be honest.
Would be nice if this (that it's mainly meant towards the "lighter" forms of Insomnia) was clearly stated somewhere at the start of the guide, in order to avoid misunderstandings. I say this because alot of people who hear/realise I suffer from Insomnia often underestimate right away the severity of it and this isn't something I like to see. But it's not a big deal either way, just a small bit of advice.
Also you might want to ask (or do it yourself if you have that power on this forum) to change the location of this thread towards the Health & Fitness section. Feel it will fit more in that section then in the General Forum section. The date of when this was created might be the cause of why, seeing I don't think there was a Health & Fitness section at that time.
On October 03 2011 21:23 whatthefat wrote:Show nested quote + Does this mean that you should panic if you realize you are going to get less than five and a half hours of sleep? Certainly not. Even if you are getting as little as three hours of sleep per night (as is the case with some demanding professions or at certain times), you can function without significant consequences (think of the Apollo 13 astronauts who slept three hours a night and yet performed the operations to get the ship back to Earth safely).
The idea of 'core' sleep isn't very well founded - especially since we still have a pretty loose grasp on what sleep is actually doing from a functional perspective. There is evidence that regularly sleeping 6 h per night results in measurable cognitive deficits relative to sleeping 8 h per night, and that these deficits continue to accumulate almost linearly day by day over a period of 2 weeks (see Van Dongen et al., Sleep, 2003). Worse still, subjective assessments of performance level out after a few days under these conditions, meaning if you're chronically deprived of sleep, you're probably no longer even aware of how poorly you're functioning!
Pretty much what whatthefat says here.
As someone who catches less sleep then 3 hours a day (if I had to go for a average, as it can vary quite a bit from day to day and week to week, it would be around the 7-9 hours sleep a week) getting less sleep can have a big impact on one's health. Of course this varies for each person and there are alot of different factors that one has to take into account to, but getting less sleep can (and most likely will) result in significant consequences.
The example made here of the Apollo 13 astronauts is a rather poorly made one (no offense Micro), because those astronauts were (to my knowledge) prepared for such situations and trained for it. Of course for them getting less sleep wasn't much of a impact on their capabilities of operating, because of their training, but on top of this also comes the time span they had less sleep. The expedition wasn't a long one and they most likely could have even functioned without significant consequences if they hadn't had any sleep whatsoever, because they prepared their body and mind to function under such conditions and the human body is quite capable of adapting.
Though it's a completely other matter if they would continue to get 3 hours of sleep after their expedition for a longer period of time, then they would face rather big consequences for their functioning and health. Even with their training, preparations for their body adapting to this, their is a limit to how far the human body can go and I know this, as I have crossed that line a long time ago and I have to live with it every day. I can type out a long list of the significant consequences I face, in my every day life or the long run, but I don't think that is really needed to get my point across.
While I have a tiny urge to go deeper into everything put forward in the guide, I think it's best to refrain from doing this. It's clear that this guide is meant for the "lighter" cases of Insomnia and I shouldn't complicate things with my experience. Besides, there's alot of information in the guide that I could go deeper into or is up for discussion in that guide, a bit too much to do it all for my taste right now. ^ ^
As for research, Insomnia isn't really well covered. There's still alot of it that is more theory based then scientific based, which is a shame on one hand, but it does show that it isn't something to be taking lightly. I have been asked multiple times to aid in research (as a Insomnia subject), but so far I have refused most of those requests because of privacy reasons.
Either way, a nice read nonetheless, so thanks for that Micro.
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What would be the result of someone having a 'higher-than-average' level of arousal in the Reticular Activating System?
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On October 18 2011 04:28 doss wrote: What would be the result of someone having a 'higher-than-average' level of arousal in the Reticular Activating System? Since the Reticular Activating System is involved in maintaining wake, it could potentially result in less sleep, or more difficulty getting to sleep. There are a lot of subfunctions within the RAS though (including regulation of REM vs. NREM sleep), so the answer would depend precisely on what is causing the higher-than-average level of arousal.
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I have my milk every night
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United States24342 Posts
On October 18 2011 03:57 Gnight wrote: Though I would like to not that it's more so for the "lighter cases" of Insomnia that this guide is meant too as for me the guide will not help me treat my Insomnia in any way, not that I expected anything else to be honest. Yeah I have to admit this guide won't work for 100% of people reading it. What percent of people with insomnia do you classify as a 'lighter case' and therefore able to take advantage of this guide? I think the percentage is pretty high and that you are a pretty extreme case (from the sound of it).
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On June 14 2009 10:35 micronesia wrote:
Finally, doing service for others (charity, helping somebody without compensation, what have you) typically improve how we feel about ourselves. Altruism reduces stress, improves positive emotions, improves attitudes and feelings of contentment about what we have, increases self-esteem and sense of well-being, and promotes social support which reduces anger and social isolation.
I find this quite true myself and when people praise you for being so selfless I just kind of laugh inside and know it's helping me be less negative for a while. It is a nice effect indeed. Selfish maybe?
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wow, very informative thread. Excellent read! Thanks!!
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From a long time sufferer of insomnia, I'd like to say that was an excellent read. Thanks!
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Good read, thanks. I got an average of 4.5 hours of sleep the last three nights.
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On October 22 2011 14:08 micronesia wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2011 03:57 Gnight wrote: Though I would like to not that it's more so for the "lighter cases" of Insomnia that this guide is meant too as for me the guide will not help me treat my Insomnia in any way, not that I expected anything else to be honest. Yeah I have to admit this guide won't work for 100% of people reading it. What percent of people with insomnia do you classify as a 'lighter case' and therefore able to take advantage of this guide? I think the percentage is pretty high and that you are a pretty extreme case (from the sound of it).
I think I'm one of those lighter case that was able to take advantage of this guide. I installed F.lux which relaxed my eyes at night, started to stop playing until 12, instead reading some reddit stuff to slow the mind down(i kinda fall asleep by reading :<), and for a week I've been able to sleep at 12. I couldn't stay awake last night for more than the first 2 matches of MVP vs MMA >.
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Thank you Micronesia, this is helpful for me.
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Is it normal to not fall asleep for 30-45 min sometimes during stressful days? Sometimes if I have something important the following day, I can't sleep for 60min+
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United States24342 Posts
On October 22 2011 23:22 iSometric wrote: Is it normal to not fall asleep for 30-45 min sometimes during stressful days? Sometimes if I have something important the following day, I can't sleep for 60min+ Yes, this is normal. But you should eventually get better about falling asleep, even on stressful days.
Even though I felt like I made a lot of progress myself a few years ago, I still sometimes am a bit too excited to go to bed the day before some big thing too.
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Good guide. I end up going to sleep later and later every day since I'm not tired, until I'm going to sleep at midday and waking up at 11pm. Eventually I get back to normal, then it starts again. It sucks when I have events to go to. Since I'm doing work from home I don't have to get up at any specific time. I've tried setting my alarm but I'm always incredibly tired when it goes off and I go back to sleep.
I'll try getting off the PC a couple of hours before I should go to sleep. Probably read for a couple of hours. Unfortunately I do all my reading on my ipad now haha so I might have to buy some real books.
I haven't yet put in a real effort in order to stop it, but this guide has inspired me to give it a go.
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Well, I'm not really an insomniac, I think, but the last few nights, I wake up in the middle of the night, and can't get back to sleep. Then it starts to become a patturn, until I break it. Get a few good nights of sleep, then boom, happens again. Rinse, repeat. Very annoying.
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On October 22 2011 14:08 micronesia wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2011 03:57 Gnight wrote: Though I would like to not that it's more so for the "lighter cases" of Insomnia that this guide is meant too as for me the guide will not help me treat my Insomnia in any way, not that I expected anything else to be honest. Yeah I have to admit this guide won't work for 100% of people reading it. What percent of people with insomnia do you classify as a 'lighter case' and therefore able to take advantage of this guide? I think the percentage is pretty high and that you are a pretty extreme case (from the sound of it).
I am sorta tempted to say that I am a part of the 1% and that this guide will only work for the other 99% of the people who suffer from Insomnia. xD But seriously said, while those numbers may not even be that off, I don't have a real idea on how much people suffer from Insomnia and to what "degree", so it's hard to put forth numbers. If I have to take a estimation either way, I think that the "lighter" cases that can take advantage of this guide would be around the 70-80% of the people who suffer from Insomnia, at the very least.
Even so, that is a estimation with no actual base to go on, so I might be way off. Though, I don't think it should really matter how many people you can help. Even if only 1% who suffer from Insomnia manage to take advantage of this guide it wasn't a waste, heck even if this guide managed to help just 1 person I wouldn't find it a waste. ^ ^
Seeing the replies and all, it's without a doubt more then 1 person who found the guide a great help, on top of that comes the fact that your guide can do more then just try to help people who suffer from Insomnia. It's a nice read with tons of information regarding Insomnia that people can take advantage to inform themselves on the subject.
Either way, the guide was anything but a waste of my time, once again my thanks.
(Ps, my advice is still to get the topic moved to the Health & Fitness section or get one of the topics there to put a link to this guide in their OP for easier access. But that's not up to me to decide. >.<)
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Really helpful stuff. I've been struggling with insomnia for a while now. Thanks Micro!
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I was teaching myself to lucid dream and one of the side effects was insomnia, which caused a lot of problems for me. I tried really hard to break out of it but I would find myself staring at the ceiling for hours before eventually falling asleep and waking up multiple times throughout the night. I don't know if I had true insomnia, but here is what helped me break out of it and start falling asleep normal.
First of all I gave myself realistic chances. From the hour I woke up, I added on 16 hours and concluded that for a fair chance I shouldn't be falling asleep until then. This my be different for others but I was trying to fall asleep at 1am after waking up at 12pm.
Secondly, I read the changes my body went through when entering sleep, such as slower breathing, slower heart rate and lower body temperature. So I turned on my fan / window or stayed above my covers, and focused on my breathing and heart beat and trying to lower them. I would take big deep breaths through my mouth and let them out slowly through through my nose.
Combining these two things allowed me to shift from feeling stressful in bed to calm quite easily and I would now start catching myself drift off. At this stage I just recognized this as okay and correct and eventually I just started drifting into sleep.
Brought down the time it took me to sleep from an hour+ to under 30 minutes on most nights. Hope this helps someone.
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Im glad this is bumped. Just finished reading part 1. Thanks Micro !
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Since this thread is here, I figure it gives me a chance to address something that may or may not be some kind of insomnia.
Lately, I wake up every day feeling miserably tired. I work from 2PM - midnight, so I typically fall asleep around 1 AM. Lately though, I have been feeling like total ass when I have to get up. I usually have to get up sometime between 8 and 9. If left alone, I will sleep until nearly 11 AM. Sometimes I have even passed that mark. I fall asleep quickly, and don't ever recall waking up or anything, but something is clearly wrong. It might have more to do with the quality of sleep I'm getting rather than the amount. I just don't know.
Has anyone experienced this? Are there any physicians who post on TL who might know something? If it is something like sleep apnea, how can I confirm it?
Also, I read the OP hoping there would be something similar to my issue. No luck =(
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I guess I fit the bill, just 3 days ago (sunday) I couldn't get any sleep whatsoever. Lay around in bed for a good 5 hours before giving up which sucks because I can't afford to miss any of my monday lectures. Ended up having to stay up for 28 hours straight o.o and this isn't exactly a rare occurrence either =/
edit: oh and thanks to OP, i read the entire guide. and thanks to whoever bumped this lol
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Finally got around to reading this, I'm betting it's going to be super helpful. Thanks for writing it
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Great bump, I have quite a few sleepless nights over the past week.
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