I thought this was already posted in TL but I guess it wasn't Probably one of the funniest things I have ever read.
After the aftermath of the WBC finals with Korea and Japan with Japan taking the trophy home, 2 Japanese women decided to fly to Korea to taunt their rivals. On their blogs, they told their fellow japanese netizens they will show the Koreans "Who the superior country is."
Waving the Japanese Imperial Flag and parading around Myeong Dong, the two also wore the T-Shirt of LG Twins pitcher "Japan Killer" Joong Gun Dong. They also anounced they will "Never forgive what the Koreans said about the Japanese Hero Ichiro." They also said "If our sources are correct, all the Koreans will scream and spit at us asking us to leave which means that our plan has succeeded."
However, instead of Nippon Bashing, the two Japanese women were greeted with warmth by the Korean public. The Koreans would come up and ask them "Wow you guys really love baseball don't you? That looks great!", "Ichiro is such a great player! It wouldn't even be an exaggeration to say he is the best asian player!" , "Wow Japan is so good at baseball! I sure wish we play more often!" and "Japan is a very cool country! I wish we can get along more often."
Everywhere the 2 japanese women went they were showered with warm greetings and casual talk about the baseball games played between the two countries. The 2 women were shocked to see such response from their so-called "haters" and then wrote in their blogs that South Korea was a beautiful country with nice people everywhere and Japanese people should visit more often. After the incident they apologized and said next time they visit, they will parade with the Korean flag instead.
Unexpected. Korean people have mastered the best anti-troll skills :D And this will definatetly end very very bad with terrible terrible damage on those girls if they did it in China.
Amusing though this is, it really shows the danger of an inadequate understanding of the history of one's own country. Considering the horrific brutality inflicted on Korea during the colonial period, one has to wonder at the mindset of Japanese people who would parade that flag around in Seoul with the express intention of provoking a reaction.
On July 05 2009 17:22 Arbiter[frolix] wrote: I would be interested to know the source of this.
Amusing though this is, it really shows the danger of an inadequate understanding of the history of one's own country. Considering the horrific brutality inflicted on Korea during the colonial period, one has to wonder at the mindset of Japanese people who would parade that flag around in Seoul with the express intention of provoking a reaction.
Considering that the point of this seems to be to draw a hostile reaction from the Koreans, I don't suppose it is inadequate understand of history, just pure stupidity.
Koreans fucking hate the Japanese. It's the one thing I can't stand about the Koreans I know... they just cannot let go of their feelings towards Japan and they have about 10 different examples of the Japanese government directly trying to make Korea's situation harder. I've heard different Korean friends from different schools use the same arguments, verbatim, about this random island that Japan lays claim to and should give to Korea.
Don't give me this shit about how Koreans are full of tolerance and love and the Japanese are full of hate. In my experience it's exactly the opposite (although someone in Japan or with lots of Japanese friends would have to shed light on this further.)
On July 05 2009 17:22 Arbiter[frolix] wrote: I would be interested to know the source of this.
Amusing though this is, it really shows the danger of an inadequate understanding of the history of one's own country. Considering the horrific brutality inflicted on Korea during the colonial period, one has to wonder at the mindset of Japanese people who would parade that flag around in Seoul with the express intention of provoking a reaction.
On July 05 2009 17:22 Arbiter[frolix] wrote: I would be interested to know the source of this.
Amusing though this is, it really shows the danger of an inadequate understanding of the history of one's own country. Considering the horrific brutality inflicted on Korea during the colonial period, one has to wonder at the mindset of Japanese people who would parade that flag around in Seoul with the express intention of provoking a reaction.
Considering that the point of this seems to be to draw a hostile reaction from the Koreans, I don't suppose it is inadequate understand of history, just pure stupidity.
They were lucky not to have been beaten to pulps.
Perhaps, but I was giving them the benefit of the doubt on the more serious moral issue and assuming that they had little, or perhaps a confused and inadequate, understanding of the true horrors inflicted on Korea by soldiers and other authorities acting under that flag.
If one were to fully understand the relevant historical situation and then parade around Seoul attempting to provoke a reaction with that flag, that would be deeply reprehensible.
I think it is far more likely that these people are simply ignorant.
On July 05 2009 17:22 Arbiter[frolix] wrote: I would be interested to know the source of this.
Amusing though this is, it really shows the danger of an inadequate understanding of the history of one's own country. Considering the horrific brutality inflicted on Korea during the colonial period, one has to wonder at the mindset of Japanese people who would parade that flag around in Seoul with the express intention of provoking a reaction.
Considering that the point of this seems to be to draw a hostile reaction from the Koreans, I don't suppose it is inadequate understand of history, just pure stupidity.
They were lucky not to have been beaten to pulps.
Perhaps, but I was giving them the benefit of the doubt on the more serious moral issue and assuming that they had little, or perhaps a confused and inadequate, understanding of the true horrors inflicted on Korea by soldiers and other authorities acting under that flag.
If one were to fully understand the relevant historical situation and then parade around Seoul attempting to provoke a reaction with that flag, that would be deeply reprehensible.
I think it is far more likely that these people are simply ignorant.
DING DING DING We have a winnar!
“우린 이상한 일을 벌여 일본인과 한국인으로부터 비판을 받았다”며 “사실 이런 일을 벌이면 어떤 영향이 있을지 몰랐다. 역사 공부가 서툴렀다. 일본과 한국의 역사를 몰랐다”
Arbiter is correct, the two women did say they "Should've understood the history more, we were too ignorant to understand." They were very rash. They also pleaded "please don't see us as what the japanese population is, it was our mistake"
On July 05 2009 18:06 motbob wrote: Koreans fucking hate the Japanese. It's the one thing I can't stand about the Koreans I know... they just cannot let go of their feelings towards Japan and they have about 10 different examples of the Japanese government directly trying to make Korea's situation harder. I've heard different Korean friends from different schools use the same arguments, verbatim, about this random island that Japan lays claim to and should give to Korea.
Don't give me this shit about how Koreans are full of tolerance and love and the Japanese are full of hate. In my experience it's exactly the opposite (although someone in Japan or with lots of Japanese friends would have to shed light on this further.)
I didn't realize your Korean friends are the voice of my people. And I didn't know you need to be friends with Japanese people to be the voice of them.
On July 05 2009 18:06 motbob wrote: Koreans fucking hate the Japanese. It's the one thing I can't stand about the Koreans I know... they just cannot let go of their feelings towards Japan and they have about 10 different examples of the Japanese government directly trying to make Korea's situation harder. I've heard different Korean friends from different schools use the same arguments, verbatim, about this random island that Japan lays claim to and should give to Korea.
Don't give me this shit about how Koreans are full of tolerance and love and the Japanese are full of hate. In my experience it's exactly the opposite (although someone in Japan or with lots of Japanese friends would have to shed light on this further.)
there's a difference between hating and refuting unfounded claims about land ownership. in general, the only people that actually "hate" the japanese are the very elderly, who either have experienced the japanese colonization first hand or are directly related to someone who did. later generations don't really have an opinion on the japanese.
seriously, "shit about how Koreans are full of tolerance and love"? you're right, we're all a bunch of animals who aren't capable of anything but hate. we should stop being rivals with Japan in sports and let them have our land.
On July 05 2009 18:51 LuckyOne wrote: so they went all the way to korea to insult them , then as they saw noone took offense they decided to apologize??? makes sense.
no one taking offense might be kinda pushing it. It was more like nobody cared. Basically I will make turn this into a scenario so TL can understand it better
White Guy: LOLOLOLOLOL U NIGGERS LOL ENJOY UR SHITTY DAY Black Guy: lol okay whatever White Guy: ... srsly? Black Guy: Yeah whatever. White Guy: can we b frendz? i sry Black Guy: ???????
On July 05 2009 15:45 iCCup.deL wrote: Seem kinda obvious that Korea wouldn't care about baseball :/
during the WBC most people were absolutely maniacal about watching Korea play... but then after the the finals most people were like 'yeh we lost oh well could be worse'
basically when korea is involved in any sport EVERYONE is a fan of that sport... when it's offseason then people are less interested (like... football and the world cup)
On July 05 2009 18:57 MrHoon wrote: no one taking offense might be kinda pushing it. It was more like nobody cared. Basically I will make turn this into a scenario so TL can understand it better
White Guy: LOLOLOLOLOL U NIGGERS LOL ENJOY UR SHITTY DAY Black Guy: lol okay whatever White Guy: ... srsly? Black Guy: Yeah whatever. White Guy: can we b frendz? i sry Black Guy: ???????
In reality that story would have gone a different route
On July 05 2009 17:22 Arbiter[frolix] wrote: I would be interested to know the source of this.
Amusing though this is, it really shows the danger of an inadequate understanding of the history of one's own country. Considering the horrific brutality inflicted on Korea during the colonial period, one has to wonder at the mindset of Japanese people who would parade that flag around in Seoul with the express intention of provoking a reaction.
Considering that the point of this seems to be to draw a hostile reaction from the Koreans, I don't suppose it is inadequate understand of history, just pure stupidity.
They were lucky not to have been beaten to pulps.
Perhaps, but I was giving them the benefit of the doubt on the more serious moral issue and assuming that they had little, or perhaps a confused and inadequate, understanding of the true horrors inflicted on Korea by soldiers and other authorities acting under that flag.
If one were to fully understand the relevant historical situation and then parade around Seoul attempting to provoke a reaction with that flag, that would be deeply reprehensible.
I think it is far more likely that these people are simply ignorant.
They're definitely ignorant b/c "that side of history" isn't taught at all in the country from my experience.
On July 05 2009 18:51 LuckyOne wrote: so they went all the way to korea to insult them , then as they saw noone took offense they decided to apologize??? makes sense.
no one taking offense might be kinda pushing it. It was more like nobody cared. Basically I will make turn this into a scenario so TL can understand it better
White Guy: LOLOLOLOLOL U NIGGERS LOL ENJOY UR SHITTY DAY Black Guy: lol okay whatever White Guy: ... srsly? Black Guy: Yeah whatever. White Guy: can we b frendz? i sry Black Guy: ???????
On July 05 2009 18:51 LuckyOne wrote: so they went all the way to korea to insult them , then as they saw noone took offense they decided to apologize??? makes sense.
no one taking offense might be kinda pushing it. It was more like nobody cared. Basically I will make turn this into a scenario so TL can understand it better
White Guy: LOLOLOLOLOL U NIGGERS LOL ENJOY UR SHITTY DAY Black Guy: lol okay whatever White Guy: ... srsly? Black Guy: Yeah whatever. White Guy: can we b frendz? i sry Black Guy: ???????
hahahahhahaha
yea dude koreans are so laid back when it comes to their race / country
Hm, I would've thought that someone would've reacted. On the other hand, let's say the girls are at least semi-cute and I was a korean guy. Would I listen to my national pride or my penis?
On July 05 2009 18:51 LuckyOne wrote: so they went all the way to korea to insult them , then as they saw noone took offense they decided to apologize??? makes sense.
no one taking offense might be kinda pushing it. It was more like nobody cared. Basically I will make turn this into a scenario so TL can understand it better
White Guy: LOLOLOLOLOL U NIGGERS LOL ENJOY UR SHITTY DAY Black Guy: lol okay whatever White Guy: ... srsly? Black Guy: Yeah whatever. White Guy: can we b frendz? i sry Black Guy: ???????
hahahahhahaha
yea dude koreans are so laid back when it comes to their race / country
On July 06 2009 00:06 Count9 wrote: How do we get Korean people to New York and Boston?
If you dont see em in NY you're not looking hard enough =P
And FragKrag is right, as much as Korea doesn't like Japan, I have a gut feeling China hates em a whole lot more.............
But the Korea "hate" for Japan is still there; remember, SNSD's Mini Album got delayed because the plane on their cover resembled a Japanese Zero Fighter
On July 05 2009 18:06 motbob wrote: Koreans fucking hate the Japanese. It's the one thing I can't stand about the Koreans I know... they just cannot let go of their feelings towards Japan and they have about 10 different examples of the Japanese government directly trying to make Korea's situation harder. I've heard different Korean friends from different schools use the same arguments, verbatim, about this random island that Japan lays claim to and should give to Korea.
Don't give me this shit about how Koreans are full of tolerance and love and the Japanese are full of hate. In my experience it's exactly the opposite (although someone in Japan or with lots of Japanese friends would have to shed light on this further.)
Seriously, there's the same type of people in every single culture. You're a fucking idiot if you actually believe what you said. Not to mention, you probably don't even understand most of the history between the two nations.
On July 05 2009 20:52 konadora wrote: I'm a Korean and I fucking love Japan and Japanese
what does that make me
Weeaboo?
Just kidding.
It's nice to see this kind of reaction from the Koreans, although I admit I'm ignorant about the history and whatnot too. Generalizations about a populace are what cause racism to begin with, so I think making broad sweeping statements such as "Koreans fucking hate Japanese" or whatever should not be done lightly.
This is a cool story, I mean this isn't a "fail", internet people always put this black cloth on every situation, or story. Cool that they learned something to appreciate. Can't wait till I go to japan though. Maybe one day see korea too. They usually are nice people to me.
I think they got a win win situation. I guess if you wanted to label them as trolls, you'd see the brilliance behind them that they still got the upper hand in the situation. That's good trolling.
On the topic of baseball and Korea, what are the chances that Shin-Soo Choo won't have to serve in the military? As a baseball fan, it'd be a shame if he had to miss out on two prime years of his career. He's All-Star caliber good right now.
On July 05 2009 18:06 motbob wrote: Koreans fucking hate the Japanese. It's the one thing I can't stand about the Koreans I know... they just cannot let go of their feelings towards Japan and they have about 10 different examples of the Japanese government directly trying to make Korea's situation harder. I've heard different Korean friends from different schools use the same arguments, verbatim, about this random island that Japan lays claim to and should give to Korea.
Don't give me this shit about how Koreans are full of tolerance and love and the Japanese are full of hate. In my experience it's exactly the opposite (although someone in Japan or with lots of Japanese friends would have to shed light on this further.)
Who are you speaking for? Because I've met plenty Korean / Japanese people and especially in younger generation, there is no hate between them. People tend to hate the opposite country's politicans/government but for people to people there really isn't any hate unless you interview like a 80 year old Korean senior who lived their life during Japanese colonialism
On July 05 2009 18:06 motbob wrote: Koreans fucking hate the Japanese. It's the one thing I can't stand about the Koreans I know... they just cannot let go of their feelings towards Japan and they have about 10 different examples of the Japanese government directly trying to make Korea's situation harder. I've heard different Korean friends from different schools use the same arguments, verbatim, about this random island that Japan lays claim to and should give to Korea.
Don't give me this shit about how Koreans are full of tolerance and love and the Japanese are full of hate. In my experience it's exactly the opposite (although someone in Japan or with lots of Japanese friends would have to shed light on this further.)
Who are you speaking for? Because I've met plenty Korean / Japanese people and especially in younger generation, there is no hate between them. People tend to hate the opposite country's politicans/government but for people to people there really isn't any hate unless you interview like a 80 year old Korean senior who lived their life during Japanese colonialism
On July 05 2009 18:06 motbob wrote: Koreans fucking hate the Japanese. It's the one thing I can't stand about the Koreans I know... they just cannot let go of their feelings towards Japan and they have about 10 different examples of the Japanese government directly trying to make Korea's situation harder. I've heard different Korean friends from different schools use the same arguments, verbatim, about this random island that Japan lays claim to and should give to Korea.
Don't give me this shit about how Koreans are full of tolerance and love and the Japanese are full of hate. In my experience it's exactly the opposite (although someone in Japan or with lots of Japanese friends would have to shed light on this further.)
Seriously, there's the same type of people in every single culture. You're a fucking idiot if you actually believe what you said. Not to mention, you probably don't even understand most of the history between the two nations.
It wasn't really necessary to insult an entire continent, and then call him a fucking idiot, was it?
there's less tension among the younger generations. the hate remains among those who experienced or were around during the times of the conflicts between them, which are usually the older folks who are more old-school and traditional-minded.
this was kind of strange for japanese to do. definitely an anomaly.
If a fellow doesn't realize his own biased posture, then yeah, not too far off.
I'm not saying that Koreans or Japanese are better than one another when it comes to the historical conflict, but really? Obviously there are good and bad people in any kind of group. I've gotten tired of the whole Korea/Japan thing as well and I always avoid talking about it with other people, particularly other Koreans because I can, for the most part, predict what is going to be said. However, when some outsider that has no idea about the history between the two nations just comes in and spews diarrhea, I will respond to it.
On July 06 2009 12:49 koreasilver wrote: If a fellow doesn't realize his own biased posture, then yeah, not too far off.
I'm not saying that Koreans or Japanese are better than one another when it comes to the historical conflict, but really? Obviously there are good and bad people in any kind of group. I've gotten tired of the whole Korea/Japan thing as well and I always avoid talking about it with other people, particularly other Koreans because I can, for the most part, predict what is going to be said. However, when some outsider that has no idea about the history between the two nations just comes in and spews diarrhea, I will respond to it.
Well respond civilly please. Saying "another clueless North American" puts you in the same category as the guy you insulted.
From my own perspective in Japan, there does not exist this culture of victimhood that Korea and China has adopted. This victimhood manifests itself in young people who think it is cool to hate Japanese, and also in foreign policy, where Japan is paralyzed in East Asia because anything it tries is beat down with the WW II club. Obviously Japan was the aggressor, but even with the bomb there is just a sense of tragedy.
When I discuss history with Japanese people (and I frequently do in my conversation classes) WWII is a pretty big embarrassment. However, there is frustration in the fact that other countries constantly throw up the WWII roadblock and prevent relations from moving forward. The big question is why people hate Japanese people when they were treated almost as badly as mainland Asians in many situations. In my discussions people feel the hate should be directed towards a now defunct system.
Young people in Japan don't care about it at all. National pride is reserved for sports, and that is where it stops. Manga that you linked to is reviled here, and that particular one made the front page. There was another one that depicted Africans as huge gorillas and all white guys as Hitler. Everyone knows it is a joke.
On July 06 2009 12:54 konadora wrote: I don't get all the Korea-Japan-China hate
It's all in the past now, people (from all races) should just respect each other now and live happily
It will never happen lol. It's just a huge circle of hate: China + Korea hating Japan, China + Korea + Japan hating south east Asians, America hating Canada + Mexico, and of course every country hating America.
i think if japan did what their wartime ally germany has done: acknoweldge and apologize and attempt to remedy (or at least a gesture) for their war crimes against korea as a country, i have faith in the korean people that they will let it go and will not have to spew out the anti-japan propaganda
unfortunately that is not the case japan needs to make the first step to resolve this wasteful conflict
Problem is in the West we can't really understand that : Germany apologize quite every year about what they did during the war. Japan has never apologized and are even telling that they were kinda right, that the war criminals were great heroes, that Korean should thank them because it was better when Japan colonized them than when it was China, that Nankin never happened and blablabla. I live In Japan and here, god, in the History class, the WW2 looks like Japan has never been the bad guys, they were just serving the God or whatever the shit they tell. I mean, com'on, many friends of mine from Keio University don't even know what happened to the Chinese and the Korean during the WW2.
That's why we can't just hate the Japanese people for what they believe because they are just simply believing what was taught to them. The problem lies in the Japanese government, not the Japanese people. This is something that a lot of Koreans I talk to fail to realize. How can you expect the Japanese people to know better when their government is giving the schools textbooks full of lies.
that's partly true; but i certainly think it's possible for the japanese people (older/intelligent ones at least) to reject the brainwash after thinking for themselves no mean task indeed, but if some of the germans could see through the compelling propaganda of the nazis (and I'm talking complete and utter domination of the media and education by the nazis without access to internet etc) back in 1930s and 40s, so can the japanese. so yes, the bigger problem is in in the government, but i do not think the populace is guiltless
They need to learn from Finland and Russia. They have a pretty bad bad history but they are in good terms, and no1 in Finland that I know of speaks badly about Russians, not even the elderly.
On July 06 2009 13:02 koreasilver wrote: Since when did we hate the Southern Asians?
It's just that there is the whole superiority issue when it comes to Asians. I have a lot of Korean, Chinese, and Japanese friends (some American born and some aren't) and they sometimes tell me that their race would never be caught dead dating or marrying a southern Asian like Vietnamese, Cambodian, etc since they might get shun by their race. And there is the issue with ASL, not age/sex/location, but Asian Social Ladder and how some Chinese, Koreans, and Japanese use the term "jungle monkey" for southern Asians. Well, I'll just stop off at that since it's irrelevant to the thread, but I'm not saying EVERY Asian is like that.
On July 06 2009 13:02 koreasilver wrote: Since when did we hate the Southern Asians?
It's just that there is the whole superiority issue when it comes to Asians. I have a lot of Korean, Chinese, and Japanese friends (some American born and some aren't) and they sometimes tell me that their race would never be caught dead dating or marrying a southern Asian like Vietnamese, Cambodian, etc since they might get shun by their race. And there is the issue with ASL, not age/sex/location, but Asian Social Ladder and how some Chinese, Koreans, and Japanese use the term "jungle monkey" for southern Asians. Well, I'll just stop off at that since it's irrelevant to the thread, but I'm not saying EVERY Asian is like that.
Rofl, that's ridiculous. It's amazing how some people don't learn from the plights that they themselves or their predecessors have had to go through.
i think most of these koreans who shun the southeast asians are driven not by a certain hate or racism, but simply by greed it is true that these nationals from these countries tend to poorer and, in a sense, marrying one of these will more likely to be less economically favorable...again there are always exceptions commendable? certainly not but at least it is understandable
On July 06 2009 13:04 MK wrote: Problem is in the West we can't really understand that : Germany apologize quite every year about what they did during the war. Japan has never apologized and are even telling that they were kinda right, that the war criminals were great heroes, that Korean should thank them because it was better when Japan colonized them than when it was China, that Nankin never happened and blablabla. I live In Japan and here, god, in the History class, the WW2 looks like Japan has never been the bad guys, they were just serving the God or whatever the shit they tell. I mean, com'on, many friends of mine from Keio University don't even know what happened to the Chinese and the Korean during the WW2.
On July 06 2009 13:09 koreasilver wrote: That's why we can't just hate the Japanese people for what they believe because they are just simply believing what was taught to them. The problem lies in the Japanese government, not the Japanese people. This is something that a lot of Koreans I talk to fail to realize. How can you expect the Japanese people to know better when their government is giving the schools textbooks full of lies.
Based upon these two statements I just visited with Okuno-sensei, who is a history teacher at my school. I asked to see the textbooks that the students use, and we talked about the perspective other Asian countries have about Japanese education. Here are some of the interesting points.
1) First of all, Japanese students do learn about WWII, and the actions of their country in China and Korea. The books talk about conquest, and they talk about specific tragedies such as the Rape of Nanking. In recent years China and Korea has been upset with Japanese textbooks, but more about word selection than anything else. Conservative forces in education want to use words such as "expansion" rather than "conquest" etc. Before 1985 the textbooks were lacking much of this information.
2) Second of all, for many countries WWII is lmajor historical event. For countries such as America, UK, and Canada, it is seen as a black and white good vs evil victory. Asia is a much more complex scenario. In Japan, WWII is given the same weight as most other events. It does not occupy the same prominence that it might in other countries educational system.
When your country has 3000 years of history, WWII is at the back of the book. This creates a problem.
3) Combined with point 2, the education system in Japan does not foster a discussion about history. History is a series of facts and events, and one must memorize these facts to pass a test. That is what history is (and so is every other subject here). There is no emotion or discussion in history, even when it comes to atrocities committed against Japanese people.
Because of this, I would venture to the poster who talked about his Keio friends, probably they did learn about it, just like they learned and forgot algebra in high school too. The only "learning" they have really done is test preparation. This is what creates a non-English speaking population despite 6 years of formal teaching as well.
Would the situation be different had Japan not been cast as the bad guys? I think the educational system would be the same, but the war might play a bigger part in culture than it does now. While Hollywood still pumps out WWII movies, Japan is really unable to explore history through culture because of the extremely negative reputation it has from it.
Japanese people are not deaf to the problem though. Okuno-sensei realizes these issues and we discussed them at length.
Hope this cast a little light on the system over here, and it may be better than the anecdotal "my friend hates Japs" or "my friend doesnt know history lol".
On July 06 2009 13:04 MK wrote: Problem is in the West we can't really understand that : Germany apologize quite every year about what they did during the war. Japan has never apologized and are even telling that they were kinda right, that the war criminals were great heroes, that Korean should thank them because it was better when Japan colonized them than when it was China, that Nankin never happened and blablabla. I live In Japan and here, god, in the History class, the WW2 looks like Japan has never been the bad guys, they were just serving the God or whatever the shit they tell. I mean, com'on, many friends of mine from Keio University don't even know what happened to the Chinese and the Korean during the WW2.
On July 06 2009 13:09 koreasilver wrote: That's why we can't just hate the Japanese people for what they believe because they are just simply believing what was taught to them. The problem lies in the Japanese government, not the Japanese people. This is something that a lot of Koreans I talk to fail to realize. How can you expect the Japanese people to know better when their government is giving the schools textbooks full of lies.
Based upon these two statements I just visited with Okuno-sensei, who is a history teacher at my school. I asked to see the textbooks that the students use, and we talked about the perspective other Asian countries have about Japanese education. Here are some of the interesting points.
1) First of all, Japanese students do learn about WWII, and the actions of their country in China and Korea. The books talk about conquest, and they talk about specific tragedies such as the Rape of Nanking. In recent years China and Korea has been upset with Japanese textbooks, but more about word selection than anything else. Conservative forces in education want to use words such as "expansion" rather than "conquest" etc. Before 1985 the textbooks were lacking much of this information.
2) Second of all, for many countries WWII is lmajor historical event. For countries such as America, UK, and Canada, it is seen as a black and white good vs evil victory. Asia is a much more complex scenario. In Japan, WWII is given the same weight as most other events. It does not occupy the same prominence that it might in other countries educational system.
When your country has 3000 years of history, WWII is at the back of the book. This creates a problem.
3) Combined with point 2, the education system in Japan does not foster a discussion about history. History is a series of facts and events, and one must memorize these facts to pass a test. That is what history is (and so is every other subject here). There is no emotion or discussion in history, even when it comes to atrocities committed against Japanese people.
Because of this, I would venture to the poster who talked about his Keio friends, probably they did learn about it, just like they learned and forgot algebra in high school too. The only "learning" they have really done is test preparation. This is what creates a non-English speaking population despite 6 years of formal teaching as well.
Would the situation be different had Japan not been cast as the bad guys? I think the educational system would be the same, but the war might play a bigger part in culture than it does now. While Hollywood still pumps out WWII movies, Japan is really unable to explore history through culture because of the extremely negative reputation it has from it.
Japanese people are not deaf to the problem though. Okuno-sensei realizes these issues and we discussed them at length.
Hope this cast a little light on the system over here, and it may be better than the anecdotal "my friend hates Japs" or "my friend doesnt know history lol".
None of what you have said sheds any reasoning as to why the Japanese government has skirted around some typical issues such as the comfort women. Also, in comparison to the German government, the Japanese government appears to seriously not truly believe that what has happened during WWII were as atrocious as they were; it just simply seems like they don't give a fuck.
I wasn't talking about that. I was talking about the point where you said "Japanese people don't learn this". Not quite sure how you missed that. I think my post gives a little insight onto how much and why Japanese learn what they do.
it just simply seems like they don't give a fuck.
edit - And the rest of your post is just emotional flame baiting. I'm sorry I took the time to go and bring back something of interest.
Finally, to compare Germany and Japan, and expect them to do the same things, shows an incredible ignorance of cultural behaviour, the type of ignorance you ranted about earlier in this thread.
Have you actually read a Japanese text book? Considering I majored in 20th century military history, and I just read a Japanese text book, what parts exactly are "full of lies"? It isn't written the way I would write it, but there wasn't any "lies" that I could find.
On July 06 2009 14:05 MrHoon wrote: You know who I really hate? Pride Driven Koreans
I fucking hate you all. You guys are just as bad as Obama Supporters just because he is Black. DO SOME FUCKING HOMEWORK BEFORE SPEWING SHIT
chill out bro: indeed some of these people can be misinformed and maybe too eager but there is nothing inherently wrong with the love for one's country national pride is bound to be somewhat irrational i do wish sometimes, however, that they are not so frenzied as to incite a negative reaction from foreigners
On July 06 2009 14:05 MrHoon wrote: You know who I really hate? Pride Driven Koreans
I fucking hate you all. You guys are just as bad as Obama Supporters just because he is Black. DO SOME FUCKING HOMEWORK BEFORE SPEWING SHIT
chill out bro: indeed some of these people can be misinformed and maybe too eager but there is nothing inherently wrong with the love for one's country
I just find it ironic when KP_PRIIDDEEE Asians say Korea is the greatest country in the world when they go to public schools in the middle of montana.
its pretty annoying indeed and they are not doing korea any good but there exist "pride driven koreans" who are not as heavy-handed and put their nationalism into better use
On July 06 2009 14:10 Manifesto7 wrote: I wasn't talking about that. I was talking about the point where you said "Japanese people don't learn this". Not quite sure how you missed that. I think my post gives a little insight onto how much and why Japanese learn what they do.
edit - And the rest of your post is just emotional flame baiting. I'm sorry I took the time to go and bring back something of interest.
Finally, to compare Germany and Japan, and expect them to do the same things, shows an incredible ignorance of cultural behaviour, the type of ignorance you ranted about earlier in this thread.
People who do not have origins from China or Korea don't fully understand the cultural effect of the war simply because they have no understanding of the cultures in those countries to begin with. If the government in the country doesn't represent the people.... then what does. In other words, the representation of actions is done through political means. You may say that a SINGLE opinion differs and people cannot judge entire groups because everyone is a snowflake and different, thats asking too much. In otherwords, official political recognition and apology has not happen and extends to the rest of those who consider themselves japanese, simple as that.
Considering the issue, it could be comparable to taking a Nazi flag and parading it in Israel. Smart huh. I would say they are lucky they are women and didn't get physically educated on not doing that kind of shit.
It just so happens that Japanese culture seems very inviting to the Western world and it is easy to think that you are integrated part of their culture, and that does draw sympathy and attention, whether or not it does you, Manefesto, is another question. In that sense, statements such as "it is unreasonable for these Chinese or Korean people to hate the Japanese" is cliche for what people have encountered, particularly in North America.
As to other points where you state they have accomodated some information of World War II into their education system, it is a small step into a large large pond. They still have Koreans laborers who were brought over in World War II and still cannot obtain legal citizenship. The media spread of looking down on Koreans does not limit itself to one certain case, it is a wave that is shared like the hate in the other two countries.
There is a reason for the animosity; some have let it go, especially amongst those who have immigrated, and others don't. It's their personal choice. If you want a representation of the people that you want to use, use the government's. I don't know whether that is the case in Korea, but at least in China the view is quite closely streamlined with the stance that the government has taken.
Mani, after reading your post again, from your post, it seems as if the Japanese government does try to minimize the significance of the atrocities, such as: through usage of words. It appears that the Japanese do not truly understand the context of the history they are taught because the government tries to minimize whatever negativity that comes towards themselves. I've never confirmed in person, but I have heard that the Japanese government has undergone quite a bit of historical revisionism in their history texts, even beyond the WWII era. The government still does skirt around the issue of comfort women, which cannot be denied at all, and although this may be beyond the issue of texts, it's still relevant to the issue of denial.
I mean, if many Europeans, including the Germans, are generally fully aware of the atrocities that were committed in the midst of WWII, is it not peculiar that many Asians whose nation was swept through by the Japanese military in WWII are fully aware of the atrocities that were committed except the Japanese themselves? I mean, even if, as you say, the Japanese students learn about it in school, if they just simply forget much of it due to them focusing just purely on memorization with no emotion, doesn't that just show us that the Japanese government -is- trying to minimize the significance of the events by trivializing it? Even if the Germans and Japanese are culturally different, the difference of how the information is taken is staggeringly different to an unacceptable level.
On July 06 2009 14:10 Manifesto7 wrote: \ Finally, to compare Germany and Japan, and expect them to do the same things, shows an incredible ignorance of cultural behaviour, the type of ignorance you ranted about earlier in this thread. \
Care to elaborate on this? Any way you put it, i think there exist a HUGE difference (something I really doubt can be fully indebted to cultural differences) in government and national attitude; while Germany established holocaust memorials, japanese political figures pay publicibly pay respect in the yasukni shrine, which houses many of the war criminals Ok, you could still argue that this is merely due to a cultural difference. How about this: it's hard to deny that the national attitude toward the wwii is vastly different between the average german and the japanese; most germans condemns the nazi regime as a shameful period in german history while japanese do not seem to consider the colonialism of korea all taht regrettable. Somehow, the japanese education has failed to impose even a similar level of awareness of war crimes as the german education has. This alone should be a cause for alarm.
On July 06 2009 14:17 koreasilver wrote: I suppose the Korean propaganda I've been hearing for the past years were incorrect then.
edit: this isn't sarcastic.
However, from your post, it seems as if the Japanese government does try to minimize the significance of the atrocities, particularly through usage of words. The government still does skirt around the issue of comfort women, which cannot be denied at all, and although this may be beyond the issue of texts, it's still relevant to the issue of denial.
On the issue of comfort women, I agree, the government has never simply admitted fault. There has always been a loophole or an omission or something. I think it is so unfortunate that Japan cannot simply apologize, as that would take a lot of the wind out of the sails of anti-Japanese sentiment. It doesn't help that the very few media pieces produced about it have been rather revisionist as well.
One thing I talked about with Okuno-sensei is the evenhandedness in history classes. I asked whether this would still be the case if Japan had been on the winning side. I think it is natural for countries to downplay the worst parts of their history. I am not saying it is right, just natural. Another example is that the Chinese have built their culture on the deification of Mao and distortion of history.
Atrocities are minimized through sanitation. The facts are there, but the emotion of the event is not. This is tied to a system of education which promotes the "filling of empty vessels" style, and cannot really be seen as overt attempts by the government to influence the system.
Another issue similar to this is the treatment of Okinawan Japanese at the hands of the army. They were forced into suicide (paradoxical term?) and told to jump off cliffs before the Americans came. Citizens were tortured after being accused of spying. Okinawan's protested the government's rewording of this history as well.
The issue of face vs honesty is tough. The Japanese way seems to be admitting as much as necessary to survive, and nothing more. Nothing can really change the history, so admitting it could really do more good than harm. Honestly, I don't think other Asian governments want that though, because as long as Japan stays mum, they have a rallying cry for the population.
edit- Since you edited. I can't comment whether this sterile type of education is a government plot to sanitize it's deeds or not. I obviously don't have that much experience. I think it is more a byproduct of the system rather than the aim.
On July 06 2009 14:10 Manifesto7 wrote: I wasn't talking about that. I was talking about the point where you said "Japanese people don't learn this". Not quite sure how you missed that. I think my post gives a little insight onto how much and why Japanese learn what they do.
it just simply seems like they don't give a fuck.
edit - And the rest of your post is just emotional flame baiting. I'm sorry I took the time to go and bring back something of interest.
Finally, to compare Germany and Japan, and expect them to do the same things, shows an incredible ignorance of cultural behaviour, the type of ignorance you ranted about earlier in this thread.
People who do not have origins from China or Korea don't fully understand the cultural effect of the war simply because they have no understanding of the cultures in those countries to begin with. If the government in the country doesn't represent the people.... then what does. In other words, the representation of actions is done through political means. You may say that a SINGLE opinion differs and people cannot judge entire groups because everyone is a snowflake and different, thats asking too much. In otherwords, official political recognition and apology has not happen and extends to the rest of those who consider themselves japanese, simple as that.
Considering the issue, it could be comparable to taking a Nazi flag and parading it in Israel. Smart huh. I would say they are lucky they are women and didn't get physically educated on not doing that kind of shit.
It just so happens that Japanese culture seems very inviting to the Western world and it is easy to think that you are integrated part of their culture, and that does draw sympathy and attention, whether or not it does you, Manefesto, is another question. In that sense, statements such as "it is unreasonable for these Chinese or Korean people to hate the Japanese" is cliche for what people have encountered, particularly in North America.
As to other points where you state they have accomodated some information of World War II into their education system, it is a small step into a large large pond. They still have Koreans laborers who were brought over in World War II and still cannot obtain legal citizenship. The media spread of looking down on Koreans does not limit itself to one certain case, it is a wave that is shared like the hate in the other two countries.
There is a reason for the animosity; some have let it go, especially amongst those who have immigrated, and others don't. It's their personal choice. If you want a representation of the people that you want to use, use the government's. I don't know whether that is the case in Korea, but at least in China the view is quite closely streamlined with the stance that the government has taken.
Maybe I am pessimistic, but I really don't believe the government of any country adequately represents the people. I think it represents only a very small portion of them. I think if you were to poll the average Japanese person, they would show a lot more remorse than if you polled the government. But again, that is just my opinion.
Almost every soldier in every army during WWII was caught up in a system, and a series of events, far beyond what he or she could control. To blame individual people 60 years after the fact seems futile to me. The focus should be on the system that allowed it to take place.
I don't want to get into a debate about the Chinese government system, but the pressure the government has put on the populace to conform to it's views in the past fifty years may have created an artificial tie.
Regardless of whether it is a byproduct of the system or the aim, if the education leads to such attitude and awareness (or lack of one) of the general japanese populace, it should be amended. That the japanese governement seems so adamant in keeping their ways, despite strong complaints from neighboring nations, makes me suspect that this kind of education, in fact, was not a byproduct but was intended all along.
On July 06 2009 14:51 Manifesto7 wrote: Maybe I am pessimistic, but I really don't believe the government of any country adequately represents the people. I think it represents only a very small portion of them. I think if you were to poll the average Japanese person, they would show a lot more remorse than if you polled the government. But again, that is just my opinion.
Almost every soldier in every army during WWII was caught up in a system, and a series of events, far beyond what he or she could control. To blame individual people 60 years after the fact seems futile to me. The focus should be on the system that allowed it to take place.
I don't want to get into a debate about the Chinese government system, but the pressure the government has put on the populace to conform to it's views in the past fifty years may have created an artificial tie.
On July 06 2009 14:17 koreasilver wrote: I suppose the Korean propaganda I've been hearing for the past years were incorrect then.
edit: this isn't sarcastic.
However, from your post, it seems as if the Japanese government does try to minimize the significance of the atrocities, particularly through usage of words. The government still does skirt around the issue of comfort women, which cannot be denied at all, and although this may be beyond the issue of texts, it's still relevant to the issue of denial.
On the issue of comfort women, I agree, the government has never simply admitted fault. There has always been a loophole or an omission or something. I think it is so unfortunate that Japan cannot simply apologize, as that would take a lot of the wind out of the sails of anti-Japanese sentiment. It doesn't help that the very few media pieces produced about it have been rather revisionist as well.
One thing I talked about with Okuno-sensei is the evenhandedness in history classes. I asked whether this would still be the case if Japan had been on the winning side. I think it is natural for countries to downplay the worst parts of their history. I am not saying it is right, just natural. Another example is that the Chinese have built their culture on the deification of Mao and distortion of history.
Atrocities are minimized through sanitation. The facts are there, but the emotion of the event is not. This is tied to a system of education which promotes the "filling of empty vessels" style, and cannot really be seen as overt attempts by the government to influence the system.
Another issue similar to this is the treatment of Okinawan Japanese at the hands of the army. They were forced into suicide (paradoxical term?) and told to jump off cliffs before the Americans came. Citizens were tortured after being accused of spying. Okinawan's protested the government's rewording of this history as well.
The issue of face vs honesty is tough. The Japanese way seems to be admitting as much as necessary to survive, and nothing more. Nothing can really change the history, so admitting it could really do more good than harm. Honestly, I don't think other Asian governments want that though, because as long as Japan stays mum, they have a rallying cry for the population.
edit- Since you edited. I can't comment whether this sterile type of education is a government plot to sanitize it's deeds or not. I obviously don't have that much experience. I think it is more a byproduct of the system rather than the aim.
Understood, but can you explain more about the "filling of empty vessels" style of education?
On July 06 2009 14:17 koreasilver wrote: I suppose the Korean propaganda I've been hearing for the past years were incorrect then.
edit: this isn't sarcastic.
Korean Propaganda is fucking amazing SBS and KBS are run by the goverment making MBC the only channel to tell the truth
Do you remember how every single media outlet was bashing the living hell out of NMH during the scandal thing and then suddenly turn 180 degrees after he died and nearly the entire country went in uproar? That week made me scoff; it was a complete circus show.
On July 06 2009 14:53 v1rtu0so wrote: Regardless of whether it is a byproduct of the system or the aim, if the education leads to such attitude and awareness (or lack of one) of the general japanese populace, it should be amended. That the japanese governement seems so adamant in keeping their ways, despite strong complaints from neighboring nations, makes me suspect that this kind of education, in fact, was not a byproduct but was intended all along.
This is for your last two posts.
It is a little tricky for me to comment, because obviously I am not Japanese and did not grow up in the culture. Let's just say that the evidence I see is that this type of education came along long before WWII, and if it were an evil plot I wonder why it would extend to every other subject area as well.
What Japan has become should be as much a testament of how they feel as what they haven't said. While there may not be the amount of awareness other countries want to see, the fact remains that there also does not exist this strong nationalistic tendency that exists in other countries too. Japan has no standing army, and it's population, while xenophobic, looks at others with curiosity rather than the malice other countries see them.
The Japanese prefer to deal with the war in other ways. Obviously it does not improve relations with the neighbors (and I really think they should, because it would defuse so much of the animosity and improve Japan's standing) but at the end of the day there is a population here which is pacifistic.
I'll tell you what though. The constant harping at Japan about WWII gives ammunition to the right wing elements here who want desperately want to see a rebirth of the society from 100 years ago. For now that wing is relegated to the noisy speaker trucks that rumble around, but who knows?
In the meantime, I know that when my students and the Korean students meet each year, that it is a lot of fun, and nobody breaks out into kimigaiyo.
On July 06 2009 15:03 koreasilver wrote: Understood, but can you explain more about the "filling of empty vessels" style of education?
Sure. Japanese education is about test taking. The teacher stands at the front of the class and deposits knowledge (water) into the students (empty vessels). The students then spill that water onto their test, and move onto the next test. These tests determine which school (HS or university) they can next attend.
One of the main goals of education is to mold the student into the type of citizen they need to be in order to function in the workforce. I would say that is more important. Obviously this does not lead students to ask many questions, or analyze the issues. Talking with Okuno-sensei, he was a little disappointed to leave his last school because there he had a special history class where he could use audio/video, and discuss history, rather than just read the textbook to the class.
That is why I think that Japan could write everything about the war in their textbooks, and it wouldn't matter. The way education works here is that it is just a series of data, whether it be history, math, or English.
The real impact is made when students travel to Hiroshima to see the war museum and a-bomb dome. I guess they could travel to Korea and be exposed there too.
edit- One example... I did a letter exchange with Ghana last year, and part of the exchange was examining how Ghanaian children have to harvest cacao, but have never tasted chocolate. I asked my students "would you give them chocolate?". This is always a tough thing to do, because it is goes against how they normally learn. Forming an opinion may be ok, but justifying it is tough.
The American exchange students that were there then opened up with a heated discussion about it, talking loudly and shooting down points. My students were overwhelmed within seconds.
Anyway, obviously I am not Japanese, and I didn't really come here to be an apologist for the country (although maybe they need me to be lolol). I just thought I would give some perspective on what I see. I also thought that showing the opinion of Okuno-sensei, who has to deal with it every day, might give some value too.
I'm going to go bike home in the heat and eat chicken and drink beer. Thanks for the interesting talk. I'll read anything else you wanna talk about tonight or tomorrow when I should be working.
As someone who lived in Okinawa, I'll verify that as far as I've seen, Mani is being pretty straight up about it. The Koreans should take a page out of the Okinawan book, too.
Furthermore, all of this continued hate from previous generations is just childishness. Grow up and move on.
On July 06 2009 13:04 MK wrote: Problem is in the West we can't really understand that : Germany apologize quite every year about what they did during the war. Japan has never apologized and are even telling that they were kinda right, that the war criminals were great heroes, that Korean should thank them because it was better when Japan colonized them than when it was China, that Nankin never happened and blablabla. I live In Japan and here, god, in the History class, the WW2 looks like Japan has never been the bad guys, they were just serving the God or whatever the shit they tell. I mean, com'on, many friends of mine from Keio University don't even know what happened to the Chinese and the Korean during the WW2.
Agreed with you on this. My GF works in JP and she told me that, almost every young people she met doesnt really know about what JP did in WW2 and they thought that they are the victims of the war too.
On July 06 2009 13:04 MK wrote: Problem is in the West we can't really understand that : Germany apologize quite every year about what they did during the war. Japan has never apologized and are even telling that they were kinda right, that the war criminals were great heroes, that Korean should thank them because it was better when Japan colonized them than when it was China, that Nankin never happened and blablabla. I live In Japan and here, god, in the History class, the WW2 looks like Japan has never been the bad guys, they were just serving the God or whatever the shit they tell. I mean, com'on, many friends of mine from Keio University don't even know what happened to the Chinese and the Korean during the WW2.
Agreed with you on this. My GF works in JP and she told me that, almost every young people she met doesnt really know about what JP did in WW2 and they thought that they are the victims of the war too.
Well to be fair, they were also victims of the war. And anecdotal evidence like that doesn't really mean anything. If you go to other countries, I doubt their young people are walking encyclopedias either.
As a general rule, text books and other mainstream literature in every nation fail to represent the more sordid part of that nation's history correctly. This is generally true of the mainstream media in every country too.
There are important issues around the way texts in Japan represent that nation's actions but one should not operate under the impression that one's own nation is much better. Children in British schools are not learning about Britain's reprehensible activities in India or Kenya, to take just two examples, and a significant number of people in Britain wander around still thinking that the Empire was a "jolly good thing, overall". Children in America are not receiving an accurate representation of of that nation's history. And the same is true in most countries, especially those with an imperial history.
There is a very simple reason for this: accurate representation can erode the control which may be exercised by the economic and political elite based on an appeal to "patriotism". To a significant extent, the received history of one's nation has already passed through the prism of state and private power.
On July 06 2009 15:42 Nylan wrote: Furthermore, all of this continued hate from previous generations is just childishness. Grow up and move on.
Naive.
It's a little difficult to just dust it off and walk away from everything when your great grandparents have lived through the horrors of Japanese occupation. It's a couple of generations too early for that.
The horror of Nazi Holocaust is fully realized in most of the Western society largely due to the photographs showing the full brutality of the camps. They really do get through better than statistics in some cases. I've rarely been exposed to any pictures taken during Japanese occupation, however, I've just visited a Q/A section of a Korean portal and searched for pictures taken during Japanese occupation.
Pretty disturbing stuff. I clicked on two of them and saw a ditch filled with dead babies and a beheaded head of an old man resting on a log. + Show Spoiler +
Click on the Korean characters above the English subtitle in parenthesis to access the pictures. It resizes my window for some reason. + Show Spoiler +
I'm actually surprised no one brought up how the end of Japanese occupation brought Korea into Korean War followed by being divided in half as it is today. Many of the new generations grew up under the parents who most likely felt some effect of the division (poverty, communism scare, horrible instability of a newly formed regime, dictators). These parents grew up under the grievances of their parents, who actually lived through the Korean War. The parents of this generation would've lived through the Japanese occupation.
(Now, I don't mean to say that Japan deserves to be whole heartedly hated by Korea. I understand the government at the time suppressed its oppressions and exploited its citizens.)
My point is that it's pretty natural for many Koreans to have bitter feelings for Japan in general. I just believe this feeling would portray itself in different ways for a while longer until it eventually fades away - probably with the older generations that lived through these era as well.
Of course, it's not a simple enough problem you can solve by spitting out bullshit such as
Furthermore, all of this continued hate from previous generations is just childishness. Grow up and move on.
No, there is no reason to hate on Japanese people. However, it is the Japanese people who either supported or failed to stop this regime, and those were Japanese soldiers (citizens) who ransacked Korea. From Korea's point of view, I'd imagine it'd feel some apology is in order whatever the political situation during that age was. I take from Manifesto's post that the majority of Japanese residents are not familiar with how the occupation went. It's comparable to if the German citizens weren't sufficiently educated or interested enough to really understand why everyone seem to hate the Swatstika.
yup, korean peaceloving ppl owned them so hard ROFL maybe if these two were guys this could've gone either way? I personnaly strain myself for hitting woman no matter how stupid/ugly she is
On July 06 2009 15:42 Nylan wrote: Furthermore, all of this continued hate from previous generations is just childishness. Grow up and move on.
Naive.
It's a little difficult to just dust it off and walk away from everything when your great grandparents have lived through the horrors of Japanese occupation. It's a couple of generations too early for that.
The horror of Nazi Holocaust is fully realized in most of the Western society largely due to the photographs showing the full brutality of the camps. They really do get through better than statistics in some cases. I've rarely been exposed to any pictures taken during Japanese occupation, however, I've just visited a Q/A section of a Korean portal and searched for pictures taken during Japanese occupation.
Pretty disturbing stuff. I clicked on two of them and saw a ditch filled with dead babies and a beheaded head of an old man resting on a log. + Show Spoiler +
Click on the Korean characters above the English subtitle in parenthesis to access the pictures. It resizes my window for some reason. + Show Spoiler +
I'm actually surprised no one brought up how the end of Japanese occupation brought Korea into Korean War followed by being divided in half as it is today. Many of the new generations grew up under the parents who most likely felt some effect of the division (poverty, communism scare, horrible instability of a newly formed regime, dictators). These parents grew up under the grievances of their parents, who actually lived through the Korean War. The parents of this generation would've lived through the Japanese occupation.
(Now, I don't mean to say that Japan deserves to be whole heartedly hated by Korea. I understand the government at the time suppressed its oppressions and exploited its citizens.)
My point is that it's pretty natural for many Koreans to have bitter feelings for Japan in general. I just believe this feeling would portray itself in different ways for a while longer until it eventually fades away - probably with the older generations that lived through these era as well.
Of course, it's not a simple enough problem you can solve by spitting out bullshit such as
Furthermore, all of this continued hate from previous generations is just childishness. Grow up and move on.
No, there is no reason to hate on Japanese people. However, it is the Japanese people who either supported or failed to stop this regime, and those were Japanese soldiers (citizens) who ransacked Korea. From Korea's point of view, I'd imagine it'd feel some apology is in order whatever the political situation during that age was. I take from Manifesto's post that the majority of Japanese residents are not familiar with how the occupation went. It's comparable to if the German citizens weren't sufficiently educated or interested enough to really understand why everyone seem to hate the Swatstika.
Given your last paragraph, it is most certainly NOT naive. Most of your points have also been addressed earlier in the thread.
Whether or not people feel like forgiving a country largely made up of people who had nothing to do with what happened and whether or not they should are entirely different issues. It IS childish. What your post does is take what should be and confuse it with what is, and as such it misses the mark completely.
My question at this point is what does "learning about the atrocities" accomplish? If it is to create a society where this does not happen again, are there not other ways to make this happen than reliving grotesque history over and over?
If the purpose is to enforce shame on others, I wonder about the value of that endevour.
On July 06 2009 18:18 Arbiter[frolix] wrote: As a general rule, text books and other mainstream literature in every nation fail to represent the more sordid part of that nation's history correctly. This is generally true of the mainstream media in every country too.
There are important issues around the way texts in Japan represent that nation's actions but one should not operate under the impression that one's own nation is much better. Children in British schools are not learning about Britain's reprehensible activities in India or Kenya, to take just two examples, and a significant number of people in Britain wander around still thinking that the Empire was a "jolly good thing, overall". Children in America are not receiving an accurate representation of of that nation's history. And the same is true in most countries, especially those with an imperial history.
There is a very simple reason for this: accurate representation can erode the control which may be exercised by the economic and political elite based on an appeal to "patriotism". To a significant extent, the received history of one's nation has already passed through the prism of state and private power.
I would argue that is a homogeneous society such as Japan, these factors are more strictly adhered to. Japan is so image conscious that it would rather sanitize than investigate.
On July 06 2009 15:42 Nylan wrote: Furthermore, all of this continued hate from previous generations is just childishness. Grow up and move on.
Naive.
It's a little difficult to just dust it off and walk away from everything when your great grandparents have lived through the horrors of Japanese occupation. It's a couple of generations too early for that.
The horror of Nazi Holocaust is fully realized in most of the Western society largely due to the photographs showing the full brutality of the camps. They really do get through better than statistics in some cases. I've rarely been exposed to any pictures taken during Japanese occupation, however, I've just visited a Q/A section of a Korean portal and searched for pictures taken during Japanese occupation.
Pretty disturbing stuff. I clicked on two of them and saw a ditch filled with dead babies and a beheaded head of an old man resting on a log. + Show Spoiler +
Click on the Korean characters above the English subtitle in parenthesis to access the pictures. It resizes my window for some reason. + Show Spoiler +
I'm actually surprised no one brought up how the end of Japanese occupation brought Korea into Korean War followed by being divided in half as it is today. Many of the new generations grew up under the parents who most likely felt some effect of the division (poverty, communism scare, horrible instability of a newly formed regime, dictators). These parents grew up under the grievances of their parents, who actually lived through the Korean War. The parents of this generation would've lived through the Japanese occupation.
(Now, I don't mean to say that Japan deserves to be whole heartedly hated by Korea. I understand the government at the time suppressed its oppressions and exploited its citizens.)
My point is that it's pretty natural for many Koreans to have bitter feelings for Japan in general. I just believe this feeling would portray itself in different ways for a while longer until it eventually fades away - probably with the older generations that lived through these era as well.
Of course, it's not a simple enough problem you can solve by spitting out bullshit such as
Furthermore, all of this continued hate from previous generations is just childishness. Grow up and move on.
No, there is no reason to hate on Japanese people. However, it is the Japanese people who either supported or failed to stop this regime, and those were Japanese soldiers (citizens) who ransacked Korea. From Korea's point of view, I'd imagine it'd feel some apology is in order whatever the political situation during that age was. I take from Manifesto's post that the majority of Japanese residents are not familiar with how the occupation went. It's comparable to if the German citizens weren't sufficiently educated or interested enough to really understand why everyone seem to hate the Swatstika.
Sorry, but the traditional argument of "people stopping the regime" never holds water with me. People are under tremendous stress under tyrannical regimes, and I find rare examples that people rebel. To expect them to is to hold them to an unfair standard, as these regimes remove the ability of choice.
On July 06 2009 18:18 Arbiter[frolix] wrote: Children in British schools are not learning about Britain's reprehensible activities in India or Kenya, to take just two examples, and a significant number of people in Britain wander around still thinking that the Empire was a "jolly good thing, overall".
It was a jolly good thing, overall. The Brits ruled Singapore and we're one of the 4 Asian Tigers. The French, on the other hand...
I agree that this problem of censoring history isn't confined to Japan, though.
A lot of the Japanese were certainly assholes in their short-lived empire. But the Japanese were victims of WW2 as well. How many families lost fathers and sons and brothers who didn't want to fight in the first place? But that's something the textbooks in Japan's ex-empire don't teach either. Not that I don't think Japan shouldn't apologise, but just that both sides are guilty of picking and choosing their history.
Sorry, but the traditional argument of "people stopping the regime" never holds water with me. People are under tremendous stress under tyrannical regimes, and I find rare examples that people rebel. To expect them to is to hold them to an unfair standard, as these regimes remove the ability of choice.
Especially as by the time WW2 rolled round, a few soldiers with guns could control an entire population. This isn't the French Revolution where a mob armed with pitchforks and a few muskets could still overthrow a regime.
If your argument is that the people should stop the regime, then Korea and the rest of Asia deserve to still be under Japanese rule because none of them overthrew the Japanese regime.
On July 06 2009 18:18 Arbiter[frolix] wrote: Children in British schools are not learning about Britain's reprehensible activities in India or Kenya, to take just two examples, and a significant number of people in Britain wander around still thinking that the Empire was a "jolly good thing, overall".
It was a jolly good thing, overall. The Brits ruled Singapore and we're one of the 4 Asian Tigers. The French, on the other hand...
As delighted as I am for Britain to be ranked above France in the "friendly empire" league table, I hardly think that settles the issue.
There is no doubt in my mind that the Great Wars of the 20th century were democratic, popular wars, and the common soldiery bears a great deal of the responsibility for it. The differences of individual behaviour between the American soldier and Russian soldier in occupied Europe cannot be reduced to their respective forms of government; it is something much deeper than that.
At the same time, in the West, we regard history as more than a means of explaining the impersonal world without us; that is, more than mythology. For us history is a means of self-knowledge. The Western historian must never be satisfied with demonizing or dehumanizing the Nazis; he must expand his understanding of humanity to encompass them. Demonization such as Japan is represented in Chinese historiography is an admittance of defeat in Western historical thinking: it implies that our subject is morally incomprehensible, and devoid of personality.
Considering the civilizational and moral standards of the Chinese themselves, they should be able to understand the Japanese occupation better than the West, yet they do not. There is the eternal egocentrism of the Chinese nation. There is their lack of individualistic traditions. Perhaps it is right that Europeans cannot be expected to understand Chinese "culture."
On July 06 2009 22:27 Manifesto7 wrote: My question at this point is what does "learning about the atrocities" accomplish?
Well, presumably it would have stopped these two morons parading around Seoul with the Imperial Japanese flag for a start. :p
On a more serious note, my point is not that a nation should be continually flagellating itself by reliving past atrocities but that a proper understanding of the past, especially the relatively recent past, is important if one is to understand the political machinations of the present. This applies with some urgency to one's own nation but also to understanding other nations and other regions, as the recent events in Honduras have amply demonstrated.
On July 06 2009 18:18 Arbiter[frolix] wrote: Children in British schools are not learning about Britain's reprehensible activities in India or Kenya, to take just two examples, and a significant number of people in Britain wander around still thinking that the Empire was a "jolly good thing, overall".
It was a jolly good thing, overall. The Brits ruled Singapore and we're one of the 4 Asian Tigers. The French, on the other hand...
As delighted as I am for Britain to be ranked above France in the "friendly empire" league table, I hardly think that settles the issue.
What... you're not happy with that. What kind of Brit are you, anyway?
Anyway, leaving aside the issue of whether it was good or bad (since it's hard to say whether its ex colonies are doing well or badly because of or in spite of it), I think the one really good thing the British did for my country was to withdraw in an orderly fashion leaving behind a good system of governance and badly defeated communists.
And I think the Commonwealth countries used to get a whole lot more out of Britain before Margaret Thatcher became Prime Minister (did we use to get free uni education in the UK?)... but by then I think the largesse had been going on long enough anyway.
But yeah, they did do pretty badly at other times in other countries.
On July 06 2009 15:42 Nylan wrote: Furthermore, all of this continued hate from previous generations is just childishness. Grow up and move on.
Naive.
It's a little difficult to just dust it off and walk away from everything when your great grandparents have lived through the horrors of Japanese occupation. It's a couple of generations too early for that.
The horror of Nazi Holocaust is fully realized in most of the Western society largely due to the photographs showing the full brutality of the camps. They really do get through better than statistics in some cases. I've rarely been exposed to any pictures taken during Japanese occupation, however, I've just visited a Q/A section of a Korean portal and searched for pictures taken during Japanese occupation.
Pretty disturbing stuff. I clicked on two of them and saw a ditch filled with dead babies and a beheaded head of an old man resting on a log. + Show Spoiler +
Click on the Korean characters above the English subtitle in parenthesis to access the pictures. It resizes my window for some reason. + Show Spoiler +
I'm actually surprised no one brought up how the end of Japanese occupation brought Korea into Korean War followed by being divided in half as it is today. Many of the new generations grew up under the parents who most likely felt some effect of the division (poverty, communism scare, horrible instability of a newly formed regime, dictators). These parents grew up under the grievances of their parents, who actually lived through the Korean War. The parents of this generation would've lived through the Japanese occupation.
(Now, I don't mean to say that Japan deserves to be whole heartedly hated by Korea. I understand the government at the time suppressed its oppressions and exploited its citizens.)
My point is that it's pretty natural for many Koreans to have bitter feelings for Japan in general. I just believe this feeling would portray itself in different ways for a while longer until it eventually fades away - probably with the older generations that lived through these era as well.
Of course, it's not a simple enough problem you can solve by spitting out bullshit such as
Furthermore, all of this continued hate from previous generations is just childishness. Grow up and move on.
No, there is no reason to hate on Japanese people. However, it is the Japanese people who either supported or failed to stop this regime, and those were Japanese soldiers (citizens) who ransacked Korea. From Korea's point of view, I'd imagine it'd feel some apology is in order whatever the political situation during that age was. I take from Manifesto's post that the majority of Japanese residents are not familiar with how the occupation went. It's comparable to if the German citizens weren't sufficiently educated or interested enough to really understand why everyone seem to hate the Swatstika.
Given your last paragraph, it is most certainly NOT naive. Most of your points have also been addressed earlier in the thread.
Whether or not people feel like forgiving a country largely made up of people who had nothing to do with what happened and whether or not they should are entirely different issues. It IS childish. What your post does is take what should be and confuse it with what is, and as such it misses the mark completely.
You're just preaching an idealistic way of going about it, and I would consider that as being naive. My point was that it is not so easy to simply forgive and forget when the survivors from that era are still around. Besides, it would be much easier to go about forgiving if there ever was a sincere apology for what happened.
I've learned a lot from this thread, thanks for those contributing. I'm a complete ignorant about the history of the two countries.
This tension between koreans and japanese. Are they new to WW2? Or does it date from much before that and the war only aggravated it?
I don't know any koreans in real life. I do know many japanese and they all seem to have an unexplainable anger towards koreans. Most of them are just as ignorant about history as I am tho. Yet, they don't like koreans regardless :S
On July 06 2009 15:42 Nylan wrote: Furthermore, all of this continued hate from previous generations is just childishness. Grow up and move on.
Naive.
It's a little difficult to just dust it off and walk away from everything when your great grandparents have lived through the horrors of Japanese occupation. It's a couple of generations too early for that.
The horror of Nazi Holocaust is fully realized in most of the Western society largely due to the photographs showing the full brutality of the camps. They really do get through better than statistics in some cases. I've rarely been exposed to any pictures taken during Japanese occupation, however, I've just visited a Q/A section of a Korean portal and searched for pictures taken during Japanese occupation.
Pretty disturbing stuff. I clicked on two of them and saw a ditch filled with dead babies and a beheaded head of an old man resting on a log. + Show Spoiler +
Click on the Korean characters above the English subtitle in parenthesis to access the pictures. It resizes my window for some reason. + Show Spoiler +
I'm actually surprised no one brought up how the end of Japanese occupation brought Korea into Korean War followed by being divided in half as it is today. Many of the new generations grew up under the parents who most likely felt some effect of the division (poverty, communism scare, horrible instability of a newly formed regime, dictators). These parents grew up under the grievances of their parents, who actually lived through the Korean War. The parents of this generation would've lived through the Japanese occupation.
(Now, I don't mean to say that Japan deserves to be whole heartedly hated by Korea. I understand the government at the time suppressed its oppressions and exploited its citizens.)
My point is that it's pretty natural for many Koreans to have bitter feelings for Japan in general. I just believe this feeling would portray itself in different ways for a while longer until it eventually fades away - probably with the older generations that lived through these era as well.
Of course, it's not a simple enough problem you can solve by spitting out bullshit such as
Furthermore, all of this continued hate from previous generations is just childishness. Grow up and move on.
No, there is no reason to hate on Japanese people. However, it is the Japanese people who either supported or failed to stop this regime, and those were Japanese soldiers (citizens) who ransacked Korea. From Korea's point of view, I'd imagine it'd feel some apology is in order whatever the political situation during that age was. I take from Manifesto's post that the majority of Japanese residents are not familiar with how the occupation went. It's comparable to if the German citizens weren't sufficiently educated or interested enough to really understand why everyone seem to hate the Swatstika.
Given your last paragraph, it is most certainly NOT naive. Most of your points have also been addressed earlier in the thread.
Whether or not people feel like forgiving a country largely made up of people who had nothing to do with what happened and whether or not they should are entirely different issues. It IS childish. What your post does is take what should be and confuse it with what is, and as such it misses the mark completely.
You're just preaching an idealistic way of going about it, and I would consider that as being naive. My point was that it is not so easy to simply forgive and forget when the survivors from that era are still around. Besides, it would be much easier to go about forgiving if there ever was a sincere apology for what happened.
I am calling something stupid what it is.
Also, hardly any of those people are in government, and the vast majority of people in both countries today had nothing to do with the war. Japan is constantly handicapped and punished, so I think they've already done their due part. "MAMA, MAKE HIM SAY SORRY FOR WHAT HIS DADDY DID TO MY DADDY OR I'M GOING TO HATE HIM FOREVER" is childish, all things considered.
You can't pull the "you don't know what it's like" card either. I know firsthand it isn't just a naive, idealistic thought.
On July 07 2009 00:11 VIB wrote: I've learned a lot from this thread, thanks for those contributing. I'm a complete ignorant about the history of the two countries.
This tension between koreans and japanese. Are they new to WW2? Or does it date from much before that and the war only aggravated it?
I don't know any koreans in real life. I do know many japanese and they all seem to have an unexplainable anger towards koreans. Most of them are just as ignorant about history as I am tho. Yet, they don't like koreans regardless :S
Japan occupied Korea in 1905 and annexed it in 1910. The occupation continued until Japan's surrender at the end of World War II. Korea under Japanese rule was not a pleasant place. On top of that, Korean culture was suppressed by the occupiers.
A sad personal memory: my wife's grandmother, who died a few years ago in her mid-70s, spent the last few years of her life trying to learn to read, something she had never been able to do while growing up during the occupation.
There's little to say that Manifesto hasn't... I'm not Japanese either so I can only give the view of a foreigner living here. My view however, has there EVER been a just and clean war ever? The very nature of war means terrible shit happens.
To just say "Get over it!" is cruel, but realistically, the more people whine about something that happened in war the less time they spend actually pull themselves ahead.
I will say I've known a lot of Koreans that never ceased with the anti-Japanese propaganda and conversely, I know many younger Japanese that have grown up seeing something from so long ago thrown in their faces. Thus they grow to dislike Koreans for it. What's the honest point of attacking someone over something that happened so far before their birth? Even if they did apologize for it, it wouldn't hold meaning.
Personally, as an American I feel embarrassed to even comment as what we did to the native populations of our expanded territory is equally ugly. But again, no society can claim to be just or clean.
On July 07 2009 01:22 sk` wrote: There's little to say that Manifesto hasn't... I'm not Japanese either so I can only give the view of a foreigner living here. My view however, has there EVER been a just and clean war ever? The very nature of war means terrible shit happens.
To just say "Get over it!" is cruel, but realistically, the more people whine about something that happened in war the less time they spend actually pull themselves ahead.
I will say I've known a lot of Koreans that never ceased with the anti-Japanese propaganda and conversely, I know many younger Japanese that have grown up seeing something from so long ago thrown in their faces. Thus they grow to dislike Koreans for it. What's the honest point of attacking someone over something that happened so far before their birth? Even if they did apologize for it, it wouldn't hold meaning.
Personally, as an American I feel embarrassed to even comment as what we did to the native populations of our expanded territory is equally ugly. But again, no society can claim to be just or clean.
If a people will associate themselves with their national history, it follows that they are responsible for what they remember and how they remember it. However, this is far from admitting that failing to fully meet this responsibility, that responsibility is devolved to her former enemies.
It must be a curious thing for the Western observer to notice the subordination of history in the orient to national mythologies. In the West, Hitler, Napoleon, Louis XIV, the Enlightenment, the Renaissance, Rome, Greece, Jersualem, and a thousand other events sweep across the universal western consciousness as experiences shared by the heritage of all Western civilizations, even though many Western nations only experienced these events ephemerally. By contrast, the experience of Japanese occupation is shared by China, North Korea, South Korea, and Vietnam, and yet the Chinaman remains indifferent and nearly oblivious to the Japanese occupation of Korea, while the Korean is similarly disinterested in China's story.
Another obvious note is that while no amount of national outrage in one nation can produce true remorse within another, this is not China's purpose. Like the old oriental tyrant, what China (and perhaps also the two Koreas) demands is not internal moral evolution, but the outward, ceremonial self-prostration of her former enemies. With these ends, Chinese appeals to Western parallels will always fail, as surely as her attempts to cower Japan by Manchu diplomacy.
It always amazes me how hard it seems for pretty much every government to admit mistakes even they were extremely grave and centuries ago... Well at the same time it always amazes me how young people can feel about things like that so strong. And even more so since you don't seem to care if your own government does it (for example the Chinese government is like the king of not admitting mistakes, you should really be able to sympathize with the japanese point of view if you are from China ^^) A similiar case can be easily made for almost every bigger country, with perhaps the exception of Germany, we kind of admit everything ad nauseum... The story while cute looks very unbelievable in every aspect.
There is no doubt in my mind that the Great Wars of the 20th century were democratic, popular wars, and the common soldiery bears a great deal of the responsibility for it. The differences of individual behaviour between the American soldier and Russian soldier in occupied Europe cannot be reduced to their respective forms of government; it is something much deeper than that.
At the same time, in the West, we regard history as more than a means of explaining the impersonal world without us; that is, more than mythology. For us history is a means of self-knowledge. The Western historian must never be satisfied with demonizing or dehumanizing the Nazis; he must expand his understanding of humanity to encompass them. Demonization such as Japan is represented in Chinese historiography is an admittance of defeat in Western historical thinking: it implies that our subject is morally incomprehensible, and devoid of personality.
Considering the civilizational and moral standards of the Chinese themselves, they should be able to understand the Japanese occupation better than the West, yet they do not. There is the eternal egocentrism of the Chinese nation. There is their lack of individualistic traditions. Perhaps it is right that Europeans cannot be expected to understand Chinese "culture."
Is this flame-bait? I can't tell, but I'm pretty pissed off. You can't just expect the Chinese to look at the Japanese-Chinese history objectively with what happened. Yeah, war happens, people die, but some things just are too much. Not to mention a lot of this is with regards to the CCP and their propaganda, there's more than just blind hate among the Chinese people you know. From my experiences the hate is getting diluted as the years go on (I'm definitely not as biased towards the Japanese as my parents and grandparents are, and my friends aren't either).
Also, "lack of individualistic traditions", wtf does this even mean. "culture."? That's insulting.
If a people will associate themselves with their national history, it follows that they are responsible for what they remember and how they remember it. However, this is far from admitting that failing to fully meet this responsibility, that responsibility is devolved to her former enemies.
It must be a curious thing for the Western observer to notice the subordination of history in the orient to national mythologies. In the West, Hitler, Napoleon, Louis XIV, the Enlightenment, the Renaissance, Rome, Greece, Jersualem, and a thousand other events sweep across the universal western consciousness as experiences shared by the heritage of all Western civilizations, even though many Western nations only experienced these events ephemerally. By contrast, the experience of Japanese occupation is shared by China, North Korea, South Korea, and Vietnam, and yet the Chinaman remains indifferent and nearly oblivious to the Japanese occupation of Korea, while the Korean is similarly disinterested in China's story.
"western consciousness" and "experiences shared by the heritage of all western civilizations"? You're a Canadian so I have no idea where you're getting this "shared heritage" crap, not to mention only Hitler has been within the past decades so it's pretty obvious why there isn't as nearly a big stink about the others.
Another obvious note is that while no amount of national outrage in one nation can produce true remorse within another, this is not China's purpose. Like the old oriental tyrant, what China demands is not internal moral evolution, but the outward, ceremonial self-prostration of her former enemies. With these ends, Chinese appeals to Western parallels will always fail, as surely as her attempts to cower Japan by Manchu diplomacy.
Is it too much for a public apology? I'm sure if the German government never went and formally apologized and prayed to dead Nazi war criminals the west would be sooo understanding. There is a cultural difference, to be sure, but you present things in such a negative light.
These two posts just looks much like "Europeans/Western genteels > Chinese barbarians".
edit: I'm Chinese, born there, lived in Canada and America for over half my life now and currently a citizen of Canada; for clarity.
On July 07 2009 03:39 KingAnus3 wrote: worst post ever, who cares about two random japanese girl having a good time in korea??? I misjudged country all the time like those F*cking arabs country that hates us!!! I should go with a Canadian flag in Iran and scream go israelll go fuckin jew!!! to see if how they will react!!!
Fifth post is a little early to be saying someone made the "worst post ever", huh?. Too many exclamation marks. And a really bad nickname. Just a really bad all-round package there.
On July 07 2009 03:39 KingAnus3 wrote: worst post ever, who cares about two random japanese girl having a good time in korea??? I misjudged country all the time like those F*cking arabs country that hates us!!! I should go with a Canadian flag in Iran and scream go israelll go fuckin jew!!! to see if how they will react!!!
On July 06 2009 15:42 Nylan wrote: Furthermore, all of this continued hate from previous generations is just childishness. Grow up and move on.
Naive.
It's a little difficult to just dust it off and walk away from everything when your great grandparents have lived through the horrors of Japanese occupation. It's a couple of generations too early for that.
The horror of Nazi Holocaust is fully realized in most of the Western society largely due to the photographs showing the full brutality of the camps. They really do get through better than statistics in some cases. I've rarely been exposed to any pictures taken during Japanese occupation, however, I've just visited a Q/A section of a Korean portal and searched for pictures taken during Japanese occupation.
Pretty disturbing stuff. I clicked on two of them and saw a ditch filled with dead babies and a beheaded head of an old man resting on a log. + Show Spoiler +
Click on the Korean characters above the English subtitle in parenthesis to access the pictures. It resizes my window for some reason. + Show Spoiler +
I'm actually surprised no one brought up how the end of Japanese occupation brought Korea into Korean War followed by being divided in half as it is today. Many of the new generations grew up under the parents who most likely felt some effect of the division (poverty, communism scare, horrible instability of a newly formed regime, dictators). These parents grew up under the grievances of their parents, who actually lived through the Korean War. The parents of this generation would've lived through the Japanese occupation.
(Now, I don't mean to say that Japan deserves to be whole heartedly hated by Korea. I understand the government at the time suppressed its oppressions and exploited its citizens.)
My point is that it's pretty natural for many Koreans to have bitter feelings for Japan in general. I just believe this feeling would portray itself in different ways for a while longer until it eventually fades away - probably with the older generations that lived through these era as well.
Of course, it's not a simple enough problem you can solve by spitting out bullshit such as
Furthermore, all of this continued hate from previous generations is just childishness. Grow up and move on.
No, there is no reason to hate on Japanese people. However, it is the Japanese people who either supported or failed to stop this regime, and those were Japanese soldiers (citizens) who ransacked Korea. From Korea's point of view, I'd imagine it'd feel some apology is in order whatever the political situation during that age was. I take from Manifesto's post that the majority of Japanese residents are not familiar with how the occupation went. It's comparable to if the German citizens weren't sufficiently educated or interested enough to really understand why everyone seem to hate the Swatstika.
Given your last paragraph, it is most certainly NOT naive. Most of your points have also been addressed earlier in the thread.
Whether or not people feel like forgiving a country largely made up of people who had nothing to do with what happened and whether or not they should are entirely different issues. It IS childish. What your post does is take what should be and confuse it with what is, and as such it misses the mark completely.
You're just preaching an idealistic way of going about it, and I would consider that as being naive. My point was that it is not so easy to simply forgive and forget when the survivors from that era are still around. Besides, it would be much easier to go about forgiving if there ever was a sincere apology for what happened.
I am calling something stupid what it is.
Also, hardly any of those people are in government, and the vast majority of people in both countries today had nothing to do with the war. Japan is constantly handicapped and punished, so I think they've already done their due part. "MAMA, MAKE HIM SAY SORRY FOR WHAT HIS DADDY DID TO MY DADDY OR I'M GOING TO HATE HIM FOREVER" is childish, all things considered.
You can't pull the "you don't know what it's like" card either. I know firsthand it isn't just a naive, idealistic thought.
Most Asian nations who have been conquered and abused by Japan is ready to move on (maybe except China) All they ask is a formal apology and admittance that it really happened. Japan is the one choosing to not move on by unwilling to accept reality of its actions. They even go as far as to remove that information from their history textbooks
How is Japan constantly handicapped and punished? Is it like Germany who ban the denial of holocaust? Does it give compensation money to all those comfort women that were abused by Japan? Does it even admit its wrongdoings?
I don't see how Japan is being punished, the country is being very childish and immature by not accepting what it did. Of course, you can't blame the Japanese citizens, but the government officials.
isnt that like if some germans today went up to some jewish people and said their race was superior? really despicable and distasteful. Even if they apologized to koreans I find that pretty low considering the history.
On July 07 2009 04:18 stack wrote: isnt that like if some germans today went up to some jewish people and said their race was superior? really despicable and distasteful. Even if they apologized to koreans I find that pretty low considering the history.
But Germans know about their own history, don't they?
I won't deny that 'not knowing our history' isn't a valid reason for waving a Japanese war flag around a country that your ancestors colonized and took control of a few decades ago, but they were doing it because of their passion for the sport (going over to Korea to 'show who's the superior country' was most likely sports-related reason too, not because of their historical pwnzorship).
Also, wondering why didn't any Koreans there bother to tell them the meaning behind the flag -__________-
I'm pretty sure history about the two countries is taught in Korea....
On July 06 2009 15:42 Nylan wrote: Furthermore, all of this continued hate from previous generations is just childishness. Grow up and move on.
Naive.
It's a little difficult to just dust it off and walk away from everything when your great grandparents have lived through the horrors of Japanese occupation. It's a couple of generations too early for that.
The horror of Nazi Holocaust is fully realized in most of the Western society largely due to the photographs showing the full brutality of the camps. They really do get through better than statistics in some cases. I've rarely been exposed to any pictures taken during Japanese occupation, however, I've just visited a Q/A section of a Korean portal and searched for pictures taken during Japanese occupation.
Pretty disturbing stuff. I clicked on two of them and saw a ditch filled with dead babies and a beheaded head of an old man resting on a log. + Show Spoiler +
Click on the Korean characters above the English subtitle in parenthesis to access the pictures. It resizes my window for some reason. + Show Spoiler +
I'm actually surprised no one brought up how the end of Japanese occupation brought Korea into Korean War followed by being divided in half as it is today. Many of the new generations grew up under the parents who most likely felt some effect of the division (poverty, communism scare, horrible instability of a newly formed regime, dictators). These parents grew up under the grievances of their parents, who actually lived through the Korean War. The parents of this generation would've lived through the Japanese occupation.
(Now, I don't mean to say that Japan deserves to be whole heartedly hated by Korea. I understand the government at the time suppressed its oppressions and exploited its citizens.)
My point is that it's pretty natural for many Koreans to have bitter feelings for Japan in general. I just believe this feeling would portray itself in different ways for a while longer until it eventually fades away - probably with the older generations that lived through these era as well.
Of course, it's not a simple enough problem you can solve by spitting out bullshit such as
Furthermore, all of this continued hate from previous generations is just childishness. Grow up and move on.
No, there is no reason to hate on Japanese people. However, it is the Japanese people who either supported or failed to stop this regime, and those were Japanese soldiers (citizens) who ransacked Korea. From Korea's point of view, I'd imagine it'd feel some apology is in order whatever the political situation during that age was. I take from Manifesto's post that the majority of Japanese residents are not familiar with how the occupation went. It's comparable to if the German citizens weren't sufficiently educated or interested enough to really understand why everyone seem to hate the Swatstika.
Given your last paragraph, it is most certainly NOT naive. Most of your points have also been addressed earlier in the thread.
Whether or not people feel like forgiving a country largely made up of people who had nothing to do with what happened and whether or not they should are entirely different issues. It IS childish. What your post does is take what should be and confuse it with what is, and as such it misses the mark completely.
You're just preaching an idealistic way of going about it, and I would consider that as being naive. My point was that it is not so easy to simply forgive and forget when the survivors from that era are still around. Besides, it would be much easier to go about forgiving if there ever was a sincere apology for what happened.
I am calling something stupid what it is.
Also, hardly any of those people are in government, and the vast majority of people in both countries today had nothing to do with the war. Japan is constantly handicapped and punished, so I think they've already done their due part. "MAMA, MAKE HIM SAY SORRY FOR WHAT HIS DADDY DID TO MY DADDY OR I'M GOING TO HATE HIM FOREVER" is childish, all things considered.
You can't pull the "you don't know what it's like" card either. I know firsthand it isn't just a naive, idealistic thought.
Japan's constantly punished? Even after the war, the Japan was not very heavily affected by its loss. After a brief period of economic downfall, Japan quickly achieved high standards of living again. Fast forwarding to today, those two Japanese girls in the OP had no idea what that flag would mean in Korea or China - doesn't exactly look like the past's weighing down Japan at all.
It's understandable that some Koreans may have ill-gotten feelings towards Japan. It's completely natural. However, it's slowly fading away with the passing time. It would be easier, of course, if something concrete suggested that Japan has learned from its mistake in the past. From what Manifesto said, it appears that the atrocities committed in China and Korea are simply considered as a part of the history and is not given any significant weigh at all.
I'm going to pull out the "you dont know what it's like" card about here. Either from family history, national pride, or its impact on Korea's history for last century, many Koreans have some bitter feelings towards the Japan, which clearly appears to be apathetic towards its past. Then, who are you to waltz in here and call them childish for not readily forgetting one of the most painful moments in their history? Do try and show some respect for the survivors or the families of the survivors from that unfortunate era.
Yawn, this story is so full of bullshit. Parading around the Japanese imperial flag in Korea and they got nothing but warm greetings.... my fucking ass..
On July 06 2009 15:03 koreasilver wrote: Understood, but can you explain more about the "filling of empty vessels" style of education?
Sure. Japanese education is about test taking. The teacher stands at the front of the class and deposits knowledge (water) into the students (empty vessels). The students then spill that water onto their test, and move onto the next test. These tests determine which school (HS or university) they can next attend.
One of the main goals of education is to mold the student into the type of citizen they need to be in order to function in the workforce. I would say that is more important. Obviously this does not lead students to ask many questions, or analyze the issues. Talking with Okuno-sensei, he was a little disappointed to leave his last school because there he had a special history class where he could use audio/video, and discuss history, rather than just read the textbook to the class.
That is why I think that Japan could write everything about the war in their textbooks, and it wouldn't matter. The way education works here is that it is just a series of data, whether it be history, math, or English.
The real impact is made when students travel to Hiroshima to see the war museum and a-bomb dome. I guess they could travel to Korea and be exposed there too.
edit- One example... I did a letter exchange with Ghana last year, and part of the exchange was examining how Ghanaian children have to harvest cacao, but have never tasted chocolate. I asked my students "would you give them chocolate?". This is always a tough thing to do, because it is goes against how they normally learn. Forming an opinion may be ok, but justifying it is tough.
The American exchange students that were there then opened up with a heated discussion about it, talking loudly and shooting down points. My students were overwhelmed within seconds.
The method of education in Japan is extremely similar to how it is in South Korea currently then, from what you've said in your post. I also recall hearing from a number of people that the level of competition and stress for the students in the two countries are also rather similar, and due to what I've read and heard about the education system of the two countries, I've generally believed that a significant reason for the high suicide rate amongst high school and university students in Japan and South Korea is due to the education system.
Regardless, from what you've said, it doesn't really seem that the general ignorance or disinterest of the Japanese about their prior history is a byproduct of the education system because if it was so, then presumably, many Koreans would also be ignorant or disinterested in what has happened in the past. This obviously isn't so, and there are of course, a slew of other things that factor in, but looking at it in a simplistic way, it definitely does seem like the Japanese government genuinely put effort into minimizing parts of their history that are disgraceful.
On July 07 2009 00:11 VIB wrote: I've learned a lot from this thread, thanks for those contributing. I'm a complete ignorant about the history of the two countries.
This tension between koreans and japanese. Are they new to WW2? Or does it date from much before that and the war only aggravated it?
I don't know any koreans in real life. I do know many japanese and they all seem to have an unexplainable anger towards koreans. Most of them are just as ignorant about history as I am tho. Yet, they don't like koreans regardless :S
The relationship between the Koreans and the Japanese weren't bad until the Imjin Wars, where the Japanese suddenly invaded a completely unprepared Korea until they were pushed back with the help of the Chinese. During this war, apparently a third of the population of Korea died, and due to the widespread destruction the Japanese laid on the country, the peninsula kinda went on a downfall, which arguably continued until the end of the Korean War. Prior to the Imjin Wars however, the Koreans and the Japanese had a pretty neutral relationship. The only real period where Koreans and the Japanese had a real friendly relationship was during the first Three Kingdoms era, where the Baekjae royals and the Japanese royals intermarried. After Shilla unified the continent though, relationships between the island and the peninsula kinda lulled out. There weren't any real issues besides Japanese pirates though.
There are tons of things more to talk about as well, but it's so numerous and sensitive that I'd rather not go into history too much, as often I find myself being unable to stay reasonably unbiased as the discussion goes on.
On July 06 2009 15:42 Nylan wrote: Furthermore, all of this continued hate from previous generations is just childishness. Grow up and move on.
Naive.
It's a little difficult to just dust it off and walk away from everything when your great grandparents have lived through the horrors of Japanese occupation. It's a couple of generations too early for that.
The horror of Nazi Holocaust is fully realized in most of the Western society largely due to the photographs showing the full brutality of the camps. They really do get through better than statistics in some cases. I've rarely been exposed to any pictures taken during Japanese occupation, however, I've just visited a Q/A section of a Korean portal and searched for pictures taken during Japanese occupation.
Pretty disturbing stuff. I clicked on two of them and saw a ditch filled with dead babies and a beheaded head of an old man resting on a log. + Show Spoiler +
Click on the Korean characters above the English subtitle in parenthesis to access the pictures. It resizes my window for some reason. + Show Spoiler +
I'm actually surprised no one brought up how the end of Japanese occupation brought Korea into Korean War followed by being divided in half as it is today. Many of the new generations grew up under the parents who most likely felt some effect of the division (poverty, communism scare, horrible instability of a newly formed regime, dictators). These parents grew up under the grievances of their parents, who actually lived through the Korean War. The parents of this generation would've lived through the Japanese occupation.
(Now, I don't mean to say that Japan deserves to be whole heartedly hated by Korea. I understand the government at the time suppressed its oppressions and exploited its citizens.)
My point is that it's pretty natural for many Koreans to have bitter feelings for Japan in general. I just believe this feeling would portray itself in different ways for a while longer until it eventually fades away - probably with the older generations that lived through these era as well.
Of course, it's not a simple enough problem you can solve by spitting out bullshit such as
Furthermore, all of this continued hate from previous generations is just childishness. Grow up and move on.
No, there is no reason to hate on Japanese people. However, it is the Japanese people who either supported or failed to stop this regime, and those were Japanese soldiers (citizens) who ransacked Korea. From Korea's point of view, I'd imagine it'd feel some apology is in order whatever the political situation during that age was. I take from Manifesto's post that the majority of Japanese residents are not familiar with how the occupation went. It's comparable to if the German citizens weren't sufficiently educated or interested enough to really understand why everyone seem to hate the Swatstika.
Given your last paragraph, it is most certainly NOT naive. Most of your points have also been addressed earlier in the thread.
Whether or not people feel like forgiving a country largely made up of people who had nothing to do with what happened and whether or not they should are entirely different issues. It IS childish. What your post does is take what should be and confuse it with what is, and as such it misses the mark completely.
You're just preaching an idealistic way of going about it, and I would consider that as being naive. My point was that it is not so easy to simply forgive and forget when the survivors from that era are still around. Besides, it would be much easier to go about forgiving if there ever was a sincere apology for what happened.
I am calling something stupid what it is.
Also, hardly any of those people are in government, and the vast majority of people in both countries today had nothing to do with the war. Japan is constantly handicapped and punished, so I think they've already done their due part. "MAMA, MAKE HIM SAY SORRY FOR WHAT HIS DADDY DID TO MY DADDY OR I'M GOING TO HATE HIM FOREVER" is childish, all things considered.
You can't pull the "you don't know what it's like" card either. I know firsthand it isn't just a naive, idealistic thought.
Japan's constantly punished? Even after the war, the Japan was not very heavily affected by its loss. After a brief period of economic downfall, Japan quickly achieved high standards of living again. Fast forwarding to today, those two Japanese girls in the OP had no idea what that flag would mean in Korea or China - doesn't exactly look like the past's weighing down Japan at all.
It's understandable that some Koreans may have ill-gotten feelings towards Japan. It's completely natural. However, it's slowly fading away with the passing time. It would be easier, of course, if something concrete suggested that Japan has learned from its mistake in the past. From what Manifesto said, it appears that the atrocities committed in China and Korea are simply considered as a part of the history and is not given any significant weigh at all.
I'm going to pull out the "you dont know what it's like" card about here. Either from family history, national pride, or its impact on Korea's history for last century, many Koreans have some bitter feelings towards the Japan, which clearly appears to be apathetic towards its past. Then, who are you to waltz in here and call them childish for not readily forgetting one of the most painful moments in their history? Do try and show some respect for the survivors or the families of the survivors from that unfortunate era.
I quoted you because I thought you were defending Japan at first. I guess I agree with you and just wanted to expand on your point
The reason why Japan is not well-liked in much of East Asia is not only because of the attrocities it committed during WWII but more because they have never amended for them.
Compare post-WWII German/French relationships. Within a decade or two of WWII, French people *loved* Germans, the two countries where the greatest allies in europe. Why? Germany felt guilty, made many public apologies, wrote their school history books to deal with the Holocaust and german attrocities, and other things to make Europe/France happy.
Japan on the other hand, did very little. Their history books, I believe, focused primarily on American attrocities against Japan. Japan did little to make up for how it treated the rest of Eastern Asia.
For those reasons there has never been a full rapprochement between Japan and East Asia (i.e. Japan/korea).
Their history books, I believe, focused primarily on American attrocities against Japan. Japan did little to make up for how it treated the rest of Eastern Asia.
hmmm... well, the problem is, sometimes, they completely re-write the History... :/ What I can't understand is WHY in Japan, one of the most internet-connected country in the world and without any kind of censore like in China, WHY students are still not aware about the "truth". I mean, for some friends of mine here, they really don't understand why Nankin people hate them and when I send them some Wikipedia pages, they are like "WTF LOL ? fake ?"
Japan doesn't (and probably won't) amend for their atrocities because of national pride. the people themselves are very humble in their actions, but the government isnt so.
since Germany is a close second, i imagine the western Holocaust and the eastern equivalent have something to do with these statistics. i wonder how honestly the japanese answered the surveys.
MoltkeWarding: If we are to say people must be stained by the history of the culture to which they belong then do you, as a Northern American, feel remorse for what we did to the native population here? I don't mean to be a dick, but as someone from that culture I feel completely detacted from it even though the history of it has been instilled in me. I think Japanese of this current generation view WW2 in the same manner.
I am well aware of what Korea and China want; it's just the stupidity of it that shocks me is all. For example, should the US, Britan, and other cultures that engaged in slavery prostrate themselves to Africa? Then again, I'm not the type to hold on to anger so I can't easily understand people that do... especially people who weren't even alive to experience the root of the anger.
By in large though, given policy shifts over the last 10 years, I strongly believe China has moved on. Immigration and trade policies with Japan are VERY friendly and I really don't hear the same anti-Japan rhetoric from Chinese. Conversely, trade policy between Japan and Korea is still horrid.
poasiodss: Japan pulled themselves out of the rubble of WW2 through hardwork and sacrifice. Tokyo was reduced to rubble and built into what it is today because they didn't stand in one place and piss about how awful their occupiers were (America) and just got to the business of rebuilding. Not to blow smoke up anyone's ass, but to see Tokyo from rubble to what it is now is truly an amazing thing and it was done without aid or crying.
My point isn't to belittle the Korean side, but rather to enforce my point - time spent whining about what was doesn't get you one step closer to where you want to be.
All: I'm not like, wildly experienced in this... but the unmasked photos of those girls don't look very Japanese to me. Moreover, if we apply some logic to it; well, Japanese that speak Korean are rare; additionally, Koreans that speak Japanese are rare. So how was all this love-love dialog going down? The whole thing seems a little too staged to be real. Granted, if it is real those are the two stupidest girls I've ever seen, and I won't deny it could be real as there is no shorage of stupid girls here... just, usually, they lack the funding to go overseas and don't speak anything but Stupidgirlese.
I will also say there's a HUGE gap here between the mindset of the government and the mindset of the person on the street. More so than the States (from my personal observations and minor battles with both governments). I will say though, the person on the street here finds themselves frustrated by the level of hate lobbed at them over WW2 and typically through that frustration builds them same dislike back up. People need to learn to step out of their loops.
On July 07 2009 13:32 sk` wrote: MoltkeWarding: I am well aware of what Korea and China want; it's just the stupidity of it that shocks me is all. For example, should the US, Britan, and other cultures that engaged in slavery prostrate themselves to Africa? Then again, I'm not the type to hold on to anger so I can't easily understand people that do... especially people who weren't even alive to experience the root of the anger.
In U.S., the education system teaches students extensively about slavery including some of the more horrid nature of the practice. If you want another ridiculous example to go with yours, think of American schools that only briefly mention Americas and Europe trading slaves. An American kid who doesn't know about slavery. Germany teaching about Nazis as the leading political party during WWII with some policies that was unfavorable against Jews. A German kid being ignorant of holocaust?
Right now, the fundamental attitude in Japan towards this seems to simply involve blaming the old regime and trying to forget about it all. I'm sorry, but that is completely fucked up. No offense to Japan, but if the country that committed such deeds can simply have a change of regime and just start forgetting all about it, that doesn't show any remorse nor does that guarantee it wouldn't commit such deeds again. Yet, there you are, saying that China and Korea should also go with the flow and pretend none of this ever happened since Japan is obviously ready to forget about it all.
Also, if you actually have any comparable life stories on similar basis that may justify you calling China and Korea stupid and angsty, do please share.
On July 07 2009 13:32 sk` wrote: poasiodss: Japan pulled themselves out of the rubble of WW2 through hardwork and sacrifice. Tokyo was reduced to rubble and built into what it is today because they didn't stand in one place and piss about how awful their occupiers were (America) and just got to the business of rebuilding. Not to blow smoke up anyone's ass, but to see Tokyo from rubble to what it is now is truly an amazing thing and it was done without aid or crying.
My point isn't to belittle the Korean side, but rather to enforce my point - time spent whining about what was doesn't get you one step closer to where you want to be.
I don't suppose you realize that Japan did have some U.S. help in rebuilding their economy? Also, ironically, one of the major boosts in revitalizing Japanese economy was its opportunistic involvement with the Korean War. Using your words, yes they also cried and pissed about how awful their occupiers were in form of public demonstrations. You could've probably found these out if you bothered to at least check Wikipedia before posting.
I don't suppose you realize that Japan did have some U.S. help in rebuilding their economy? Also, ironically, one of the major boosts in revitalizing Japanese economy was its opportunistic involvement with the Korean War. Using your words, yes they also cried and pissed about how awful their occupiers were in form of public demonstrations. You could've probably found these out if you bothered to at least check Wikipedia before posting.
Well, that's why here in Japan, people pretty "admire" the USA. On many points, the American culture is even stronger in Japan than in France for example.
poasiodss: I'm a lovely product of the American education system and I disagree with your notion that our tainted history is thoroughly examined. For the most part, it is taught in a manner that states, "Yeah, that stuff was pretty bad, but look at all these heroic things that happened too! Oh and Abe, he totally like put and end to all the dirty stuff!". In actuality, it was not so clean and Lincoln's motivations were never so pure. More importantly, how long did it take for the issue to have real dialog or solutions? Where's those 40 achers and the muel every single slave was promised? Sorry, but the US is by no means clean in this matter and has done little in terms of apology; so for your or I to judge Germany or Japan is... damn pot; how black is that kettle again? I feel I have no ground to judge either.
Also, before you try to discredit my point by questioning the education I received, I was in AP classes from the 5 grade until exiting high school. As a philosophy major later, I've just observed that every country teaches history in a way that paints its deeds in a positive light; not matter how filthy they are.
I never said the trend in Japan was to blame the old regime. I said the trend is that the people on the street feel and act very differently than the goverment. As for "...never happen again..." type thoughts... crappy shit happens all the time, different places than the place before it. As a species we've learned nothing from our past atrocities. Darfur or other recent atrocities should prove as much. More important would be to look to why it happened and why it happens and thus address the nature of those "whys" and you can cut it off before it happens - peacefully.
In Japan's case it was an overbearing admiration of the British Empire in which another tiny island nation expanded (into the largest empire that ever was) through "colonization". Examining Britian's reasons for expansion and comparing them to their own needs they felt jusified in their acts, especially given that Britian's actions in expansion were also not all that clean (especially in Asia). Japan also framed its expansion as "colonization" without realizing the era of expansion framed in such a manner had passed.
Either way, you see this pattern continue today under differing terms. The motivation and tragedies that follow remain. Better to analyze this and understand it (thus reach a solution) than cry about it.
Also, I never said they should just pretend it never happened, but rather standing in one spot crying about it isn't productive. China and Japan have largely moved on; much like the US and Africa have done... Korea seems to cling to it though and if you compare relative growth rates and GPD, it is clear that energy is wasted. Not to say South Korea hasn't been successful, just that it isn't as rapid or strong as its neighbors. If we consider the two Koreas as one it is especially unsuccessful.
I am well aware of that history (in terms of post-war Japan). Of course they protested; Japan was never occupied before. Hell, they even managed to repel the Mongol Empire of old (through lucky typhoon timing). However, unlike Korea which is still cranky about it, Japan got to the task of rebuilding largely before it got to the task of protest. No matter which revision of history you check the bulk of the effort was placed in how Japan structured its economy and labor force over forgein investment. Nobody will doubt the US helped, especially with the procurement costs in the Korean War, but this is a standard model and the US continues to pay both Korea and Japan for land it uses for military purposes. The point of payment is moot since it is so wide-spread and Korea too has benefited from post-war aide... so I'm really not sure why you introduced this at all.
Finally, for the record, I am not anti-Korea or pro-Japan or anything in any point of grey between those, but rather I don't see the point of demanding prostration from people who had nothing to do with the crime especially when their current culture does not encourage such acts. If you or anyone could detail the logical and productive reason for this I would like to read it.
But in Europe, it's a CRIME to deny the Holocaust, right ? In Japan, politicians deny the Nankin massacre or Prostitution controversy in Korea during the ww2.
MK: Uh... that is really mixed... overall the EU hasn't been able to really solidify a working version of that law. As irony would have it though, Germany does have and enforce said law.
Not to belittle things, but I think there's a huge difference between war atrocities and out-right genocide. Japan's actions in the pacific were not genocide so comparing them in that manner is a little misguided.
SK' : Well, this is hard to tell. I only got information from Japan so can't tell how it is felt in Cn or Kr but I've read a book about Nankin (from an English guy) and the Japanese Army consider the Chinese like dogs or pigs. In many Manga, Chinese or Korea are drawn as pigs. Come to think about it, German Nazi were considering Jews as Rat... .
If we are to say people must be stained by the history of the culture to which they belong then do you, as a Northern American, feel remorse for what we did to the native population here? I don't mean to be a dick, but as someone from that culture I feel completely detacted from it even though the history of it has been instilled in me. I think Japanese of this current generation view WW2 in the same manner.
It is irresponsible to compound epicurean liberalism with memory. It is true that many people are put off by the incomprehensibility of former generations, but my complaint is not that they are ignorant, but they don't try. I said before that history is a form of self-knowledge, and knowing the diversity of moral possibilities as revealed by our histories does not confine, but broaden our knowledge of our own possibilities, and reinforces our sense of responsibility to ourselves and to others. I also said before that detachment or demonization are forms of defeat, and this is especially true concerning one's ancestors. If we admit that the actions of our ancestors are incomprehensible to ourselves, and shall remain so, then we have not earned the right to claim to be a continuation of their legacies.
The history of the Anglo-French exploitation of Canada was not always saintly, but it is also wrong to demonize the complex motives and assumptions of the European colonists from post-colonial assumptions. The history of our continent is that of missionaries as well as cowboys, of cultural exchange and trade as well as clashes of civilizations. History cannot be reduced to ideological ammunition.
Finally, I refuse to interpret national history from a messianistic, liberal, progressive perspective. That is to assume that men morally evolve, (which they do not, they simply mutate) and that the present generation is capable of acting as final judges on past events, which we are not. In the end, the liberal ideology is incompatible with the awareness of original sin, and its reminder of who we are and what we are capable of. For us, it is especially easy to fall into the trap of believing that modernity has baptised humanity, whereas it is merely the serpent whispering into our ears.
P.S. I would also confess that as I associate myself with the Western consciousness, it is far easier for me to sympathize with the laws of terra nullius and requierimiento, as ethnocentric as they were, than with the feelings or motives of the displaced autochthones, in whose names indignation has been extrapolated by the self-critical west.
I'm not saying nanking is something to take lightly, but the highest estimated death toll at nanking (~300k) is no where near the lowest estimated death toll of genocides such as the holocaust (~11 million), Rwanda (~800k), Darfur (no one knows for sure but 400k-500k is thrown around the most, and this number is still growing)
I'm not saying nanking is something to take lightly, but the highest estimated death toll at nanking (~300k) is no where near the lowest estimated death toll of genocides such as the holocaust (~11 million), Rwanda (~800k), Darfur (no one knows for sure but 400k-500k is thrown around the most, and this number is still growing)
Well, to be fair, they did kill some 17-30 million elsewhere in the country.
Let's make something clear here: Japan did commit genocides and other atrocities during WW2, so don't try to whitewash that. They were as bad as Nazi Germany, just that their war crimes didn't get as much exposure here in the west.
Germany has since then made up with their past and moved on, sadly you can't say the same when it comes to Japan. They still have war criminals enshrined in Yasukuni Shrine and every now then they try to revise their history books to make them look better - even victims - during WW2. This angers a lot of countries in Asia that suffered under Japanese oppression during the war, and that anger get used by right-wing groups and/or nationalistic currents in China and Korea.
If Japan just stopped trying to whitewash their own history, removed the war criminals from Yasakuni, and offered an honest apology for what they did, then Japan could move on and leave their trouble past behind them.
Radical groups in China and Korea wouldn't have as much fuel for their hatred of Japan then either, and the relations between the countries would improve.
On July 06 2009 15:42 Nylan wrote: Furthermore, all of this continued hate from previous generations is just childishness. Grow up and move on.
Naive.
It's a little difficult to just dust it off and walk away from everything when your great grandparents have lived through the horrors of Japanese occupation. It's a couple of generations too early for that.
The horror of Nazi Holocaust is fully realized in most of the Western society largely due to the photographs showing the full brutality of the camps. They really do get through better than statistics in some cases. I've rarely been exposed to any pictures taken during Japanese occupation, however, I've just visited a Q/A section of a Korean portal and searched for pictures taken during Japanese occupation.
Pretty disturbing stuff. I clicked on two of them and saw a ditch filled with dead babies and a beheaded head of an old man resting on a log. + Show Spoiler +
Click on the Korean characters above the English subtitle in parenthesis to access the pictures. It resizes my window for some reason. + Show Spoiler +
I'm actually surprised no one brought up how the end of Japanese occupation brought Korea into Korean War followed by being divided in half as it is today. Many of the new generations grew up under the parents who most likely felt some effect of the division (poverty, communism scare, horrible instability of a newly formed regime, dictators). These parents grew up under the grievances of their parents, who actually lived through the Korean War. The parents of this generation would've lived through the Japanese occupation.
(Now, I don't mean to say that Japan deserves to be whole heartedly hated by Korea. I understand the government at the time suppressed its oppressions and exploited its citizens.)
My point is that it's pretty natural for many Koreans to have bitter feelings for Japan in general. I just believe this feeling would portray itself in different ways for a while longer until it eventually fades away - probably with the older generations that lived through these era as well.
Of course, it's not a simple enough problem you can solve by spitting out bullshit such as
Furthermore, all of this continued hate from previous generations is just childishness. Grow up and move on.
No, there is no reason to hate on Japanese people. However, it is the Japanese people who either supported or failed to stop this regime, and those were Japanese soldiers (citizens) who ransacked Korea. From Korea's point of view, I'd imagine it'd feel some apology is in order whatever the political situation during that age was. I take from Manifesto's post that the majority of Japanese residents are not familiar with how the occupation went. It's comparable to if the German citizens weren't sufficiently educated or interested enough to really understand why everyone seem to hate the Swatstika.
Given your last paragraph, it is most certainly NOT naive. Most of your points have also been addressed earlier in the thread.
Whether or not people feel like forgiving a country largely made up of people who had nothing to do with what happened and whether or not they should are entirely different issues. It IS childish. What your post does is take what should be and confuse it with what is, and as such it misses the mark completely.
You're just preaching an idealistic way of going about it, and I would consider that as being naive. My point was that it is not so easy to simply forgive and forget when the survivors from that era are still around. Besides, it would be much easier to go about forgiving if there ever was a sincere apology for what happened.
I am calling something stupid what it is.
Also, hardly any of those people are in government, and the vast majority of people in both countries today had nothing to do with the war. Japan is constantly handicapped and punished, so I think they've already done their due part. "MAMA, MAKE HIM SAY SORRY FOR WHAT HIS DADDY DID TO MY DADDY OR I'M GOING TO HATE HIM FOREVER" is childish, all things considered.
You can't pull the "you don't know what it's like" card either. I know firsthand it isn't just a naive, idealistic thought.
Japan's constantly punished? Even after the war, the Japan was not very heavily affected by its loss. After a brief period of economic downfall, Japan quickly achieved high standards of living again. Fast forwarding to today, those two Japanese girls in the OP had no idea what that flag would mean in Korea or China - doesn't exactly look like the past's weighing down Japan at all.
It's understandable that some Koreans may have ill-gotten feelings towards Japan. It's completely natural. However, it's slowly fading away with the passing time. It would be easier, of course, if something concrete suggested that Japan has learned from its mistake in the past. From what Manifesto said, it appears that the atrocities committed in China and Korea are simply considered as a part of the history and is not given any significant weigh at all.
I'm going to pull out the "you dont know what it's like" card about here. Either from family history, national pride, or its impact on Korea's history for last century, many Koreans have some bitter feelings towards the Japan, which clearly appears to be apathetic towards its past. Then, who are you to waltz in here and call them childish for not readily forgetting one of the most painful moments in their history? Do try and show some respect for the survivors or the families of the survivors from that unfortunate era.
I quoted you because I thought you were defending Japan at first. I guess I agree with you and just wanted to expand on your point
The reason why Japan is not well-liked in much of East Asia is not only because of the attrocities it committed during WWII but more because they have never amended for them.
Compare post-WWII German/French relationships. Within a decade or two of WWII, French people *loved* Germans, the two countries where the greatest allies in europe. Why? Germany felt guilty, made many public apologies, wrote their school history books to deal with the Holocaust and german attrocities, and other things to make Europe/France happy.
Japan on the other hand, did very little. Their history books, I believe, focused primarily on American attrocities against Japan. Japan did little to make up for how it treated the rest of Eastern Asia.
For those reasons there has never been a full rapprochement between Japan and East Asia (i.e. Japan/korea).
I'm quoting you specifically because of this: "The reason why Japan is not well-liked in much of East Asia is not only because of the attrocities it committed during WWII but more because they have never amended for them."
On July 07 2009 19:39 Eury wrote: Let's make something clear here: Japan did commit genocides and other atrocities during WW2, so don't try to whitewash that. They were as bad as Nazi Germany, just that their war crimes didn't get as much exposure here in the west.
Germany has since then made up with their past and moved on, sadly you can't say the same when it comes to Japan. They still have war criminals enshrined in Yasukuni Shrine and every now then they try to revise their history books to make them look better - even victims - during WW2. This angers a lot of countries in Asia that suffered under Japanese oppression during the war, and that anger get used by right-wing groups and/or nationalistic currents in China and Korea.
If Japan just stopped trying to whitewash their own history, removed the war criminals from Yasakuni, and offered an honest apology for what they did, then Japan could move on and leave their trouble past behind them.
Radical groups in China and Korea wouldn't have as much fuel for their hatred of Japan then either, and the relations between the countries would improve.
On July 07 2009 18:25 sk` wrote: MK: Yes... but being insulting is still nothing in the realm of actual genocide.
It might have not been genocide in the form of intentionally trying to kill off a certain group of people, but the Japanese attempted cultural genocide on the Korean people during the occupation. Absolutely no one can deny that.
To all the people that are claiming that the Japanese attempted genocide during their ravage of Asia... do you even understand what genocide is? Obviously they committed disgusting atrocities, but there is nothing to suggest that they were trying to completely wipe out entire ethnical groups.
On July 07 2009 16:29 sk` wrote: poasiodss: I'm a lovely product of the American education system and I disagree with your notion that our tainted history is thoroughly examined. For the most part, it is taught in a manner that states, "Yeah, that stuff was pretty bad, but look at all these heroic things that happened too! Oh and Abe, he totally like put and end to all the dirty stuff!". In actuality, it was not so clean and Lincoln's motivations were never so pure. More importantly, how long did it take for the issue to have real dialog or solutions? Where's those 40 achers and the muel every single slave was promised? Sorry, but the US is by no means clean in this matter and has done little in terms of apology; so for your or I to judge Germany or Japan is... damn pot; how black is that kettle again? I feel I have no ground to judge either.
Also, before you try to discredit my point by questioning the education I received, I was in AP classes from the 5 grade until exiting high school. As a philosophy major later, I've just observed that every country teaches history in a way that paints its deeds in a positive light; not matter how filthy they are.
I never said the trend in Japan was to blame the old regime. I said the trend is that the people on the street feel and act very differently than the goverment. As for "...never happen again..." type thoughts... crappy shit happens all the time, different places than the place before it. As a species we've learned nothing from our past atrocities. Darfur or other recent atrocities should prove as much. More important would be to look to why it happened and why it happens and thus address the nature of those "whys" and you can cut it off before it happens - peacefully.
In Japan's case it was an overbearing admiration of the British Empire in which another tiny island nation expanded (into the largest empire that ever was) through "colonization". Examining Britian's reasons for expansion and comparing them to their own needs they felt jusified in their acts, especially given that Britian's actions in expansion were also not all that clean (especially in Asia). Japan also framed its expansion as "colonization" without realizing the era of expansion framed in such a manner had passed.
Either way, you see this pattern continue today under differing terms. The motivation and tragedies that follow remain. Better to analyze this and understand it (thus reach a solution) than cry about it.
Also, I never said they should just pretend it never happened, but rather standing in one spot crying about it isn't productive. China and Japan have largely moved on; much like the US and Africa have done... Korea seems to cling to it though and if you compare relative growth rates and GPD, it is clear that energy is wasted. Not to say South Korea hasn't been successful, just that it isn't as rapid or strong as its neighbors. If we consider the two Koreas as one it is especially unsuccessful.
I am well aware of that history (in terms of post-war Japan). Of course they protested; Japan was never occupied before. Hell, they even managed to repel the Mongol Empire of old (through lucky typhoon timing). However, unlike Korea which is still cranky about it, Japan got to the task of rebuilding largely before it got to the task of protest. No matter which revision of history you check the bulk of the effort was placed in how Japan structured its economy and labor force over forgein investment. Nobody will doubt the US helped, especially with the procurement costs in the Korean War, but this is a standard model and the US continues to pay both Korea and Japan for land it uses for military purposes. The point of payment is moot since it is so wide-spread and Korea too has benefited from post-war aide... so I'm really not sure why you introduced this at all.
Finally, for the record, I am not anti-Korea or pro-Japan or anything in any point of grey between those, but rather I don't see the point of demanding prostration from people who had nothing to do with the crime especially when their current culture does not encourage such acts. If you or anyone could detail the logical and productive reason for this I would like to read it.
One can summarize this entire post as a red herring.
Cultural genocide...soon there'll be ideological genocide, political genocide, artistic genocide, lesbian genocide and who knows what. Who knows? Maybe I'm trying to commit lexical genocide.
The Japanese completely took over the education system and began to teach Koreans only Japanese and Japanese history. The Japanese also attempted to destroy history texts and were undergoing revision of history during the occupation era. I mean, even with just the forced implementation of their culture into the young through an education system is pretty similar to what the North Americans did to the natives, and they did succeed in completely eradicating some languages and cultures. You can't just trivialize this.
and the Japanese Army consider the Chinese like dogs or pigs. In many Manga, Chinese or Korea are drawn as pigs.
I don't think it really takes a internet leap of logic to understand this much. An action cannot be a compliment or an insult, an action is an action. Words, images, etc. can be compliments or insults.
I shouldn't have to explain this much... murder, even in the conditions of war is wrong. I've labeled Japan's actions in Asia as "autrocities" countless times in this thread so...
MoltkeWarding: What are they supposed to "try" to? Remembering WW2 in a manner in which you wish? One can only control the level of education they receive so far; past that they'd need a passion to explore the topic and educate themselves in the details. Few humans posses this. To expect an entire culture to, without any motivation, is just absurd.
Nobody is trying to reduce the history of North America to "ideological ammo" and how you've lept there is beyond me. Seems mostly a ploy to distract from the topic. The topic is simple, you nor I are clean enough to pass judgment on the Japanese. From the usage of slaves to promises denied them after their freedom was passed to the abuse and exploitation of the native population... we are by no means in a position to judge. North America has seen no shortage of atrocities committed so that future generations of whites could enjoy the way of life they do now (for the record I am not black).
Euy: Doesn't seem like you know the meaning of genocide. As they allowed the native populations of their colonies to exist at all means they did not commit genocide. Abusing those populations isn't the same as trying to exterminate them completely. A simple comparison of actual genocides to what Japan did should reveal this much.
Koreasilver: I'm not trying to distract the point... in fact I was just reverting back to the source point; i.e. whining doesn't bring progress.
Your point about Japan trying to whip the culture of an region cannot be denied, I think Taiwan had it worst in that regards; BUT, again this is inline with what Britian did in its colonial expasions. Japanese envied and mimicked that pattern... but of course we don't talk about Britian being the "bad guy" because they were the British Empire in an era that accepted cultural washing and conquest in the frame of colonial expansion while Japan was late to the party. Neither is right or wrong and history isn't just a white and black matter. Bottom line, nobody is going to say what Japan did was right, justified, or anything of the sort... that isn't the topic and it is common sense, even to Japanese on the street.
ParasitJonte: Uh... both Hiroshima and Nagasaki where components of the Japanese military at the time. Nagasaki much more so than Hiroshima; therefore, labeling either as a strictly civilian target is an out right lie. The only real grounds to decry the bomb would be that Japan had already lost so it wasn't tactically necessary. While try one has to reflect back to the fact that Japan always deflected occupation in the past and thus would fight a land-sea invasion to the bitter end. I'm not going to attempt to justify the bombings, though I believe more lives were lost in the bombing of Tokyo than both atomic blasts.
All: Again the issue for me is what does Korean hope to gain from Japan prostrating itself? Especially people who had nothing to do with it. China, being as they are, moved on. I'm just having trouble understand what one side hopes to gain... those who suffered are gone and those who committed are gone.
It is just a personal hypothesis, but I imagine Japan avoids a full blown prostration-level apology because the trade tariffs and other economic expansion limitations countries would impose on it from that action. At least, looking at how business is done here I could see them feeling that way. Japan turned its war aggression into economic aggression and thus anything that could delay or harm that would be avoided at all costs. I know compared to China, Korea is exceptionally hard to do business with here... so many tiny pointless rules imposed on this end and yet Korean products worth a damn are allowed to flourish here.
Let's not play with words here, it is pretty pointless. I will give you a quote the pretty much sums it up: "It may be pointless to try to establish which World War Two Axis aggressor, Germany or Japan, was the more brutal to the peoples it victimised. The Germans killed six million Jews and 20 million Russians [i.e. Soviet citizens]; the Japanese slaughtered as many as 30 million Filipinos, Malays, Vietnamese, Cambodians, Indonesians and Burmese, at least 23 million of them ethnic Chinese. Both nations looted the countries they conquered on a monumental scale, though Japan plundered more, over a longer period, than the Nazis. Both conquerors enslaved millions and exploited them as forced labourers—and, in the case of the Japanese, as [forced] prostitutes for front-line troops. If you were a Nazi prisoner of war from Britain, America, Australia, New Zealand or Canada (but not Russia) you faced a 4% chance of not surviving the war; [by comparison] the death rate for Allied POWs held by the Japanese was nearly 30%"
On July 07 2009 16:29 sk` wrote: poasiodss: I'm a lovely product of the American education system and I disagree with your notion that our tainted history is thoroughly examined. For the most part, it is taught in a manner that states, "Yeah, that stuff was pretty bad, but look at all these heroic things that happened too! Oh and Abe, he totally like put and end to all the dirty stuff!". In actuality, it was not so clean and Lincoln's motivations were never so pure. More importantly, how long did it take for the issue to have real dialog or solutions? Where's those 40 achers and the muel every single slave was promised? Sorry, but the US is by no means clean in this matter and has done little in terms of apology; so for your or I to judge Germany or Japan is... damn pot; how black is that kettle again? I feel I have no ground to judge either.
Also, before you try to discredit my point by questioning the education I received, I was in AP classes from the 5 grade until exiting high school. As a philosophy major later, I've just observed that every country teaches history in a way that paints its deeds in a positive light; not matter how filthy they are.
Well, if you were in AP classes during high school, I'd have to question your honesty. Starting from American History class in middle school through AP European History and AP U.S. History, my teachers always dealt at least one entire chapter on slavery.
I'm just going to state my point from the previous post since you completely overlooked it. In US, we learn about slavery. In Germany, they learn about Nazis. In Japan, they don't learn about the war crimes.
On July 07 2009 16:29 sk` wrote: I never said the trend in Japan was to blame the old regime. I said the trend is that the people on the street feel and act very differently than the goverment. As for "...never happen again..." type thoughts... crappy shit happens all the time, different places than the place before it. As a species we've learned nothing from our past atrocities. Darfur or other recent atrocities should prove as much. More important would be to look to why it happened and why it happens and thus address the nature of those "whys" and you can cut it off before it happens - peacefully.
Either way, you see this pattern continue today under differing terms. The motivation and tragedies that follow remain. Better to analyze this and understand it (thus reach a solution) than cry about it.
That's a very hypocritical way of thinking. You're preaching that Korea should analyze and understand the tragedies to learn from it. How about Japan? Shouldn't it also analyze and understand this so it wouldn't happen again? As I kept saying, it's quickly being forgotten over there.
On July 07 2009 16:29 sk` wrote: Also, I never said they should just pretend it never happened, but rather standing in one spot crying about it isn't productive. China and Japan have largely moved on; much like the US and Africa have done... Korea seems to cling to it though and if you compare relative growth rates and GDP, it is clear that energy is wasted. Not to say South Korea hasn't been successful, just that it isn't as rapid or strong as its neighbors. If we consider the two Koreas as one it is especially unsuccessful.
You're blaming Korea's relatively low growth rate and GDP on its inability to let go of the past? Korea hasn't been able relatively high standards of living it has today a few decades ago. After being ravaged by Japan, Korea went through U.S/Russia occupation and had a civil war. After having the country become fucked up beyond recognition and losing half of the nation, Korea went through some era of political instability due to communism scare and dictatorship. Soon, however, Korea did undergo miraculous growth in economy, eventually reaching where it is today. That's alot of history to simply summarize as being too busy crying to expand the economy.
On July 07 2009 16:29 sk` wrote: I am well aware of that history (in terms of post-war Japan). Of course they protested; Japan was never occupied before. Hell, they even managed to repel the Mongol Empire of old (through lucky typhoon timing). However, unlike Korea which is still cranky about it, Japan got to the task of rebuilding largely before it got to the task of protest. No matter which revision of history you check the bulk of the effort was placed in how Japan structured its economy and labor force over forgein investment. Nobody will doubt the US helped, especially with the procurement costs in the Korean War, but this is a standard model and the US continues to pay both Korea and Japan for land it uses for military purposes. The point of payment is moot since it is so wide-spread and Korea too has benefited from post-war aide... so I'm really not sure why you introduced this at all.
This was a respond to you summarizing Japan's economy growth as a 'miracle they achieved through sheer work and no bitching at US unlike Korea.'
What are they supposed to "try" to? Remembering WW2 in a manner in which you wish? One can only control the level of education they receive so far; past that they'd need a passion to explore the topic and educate themselves in the details. Few humans posses this. To expect an entire culture to, without any motivation, is just absurd.
Nobody is trying to reduce the history of North America to "ideological ammo" and how you've lept there is beyond me. Seems mostly a ploy to distract from the topic. The topic is simple, you nor I are clean enough to pass judgment on the Japanese. From the usage of slaves to promises denied them after their freedom was passed to the abuse and exploitation of the native population... we are by no means in a position to judge. North America has seen no shortage of atrocities committed so that future generations of whites could enjoy the way of life they do now (for the record I am not black).
If you are not in a position to judge, you are not even in a position to think. Everyone judges to one extent or another, and the responsibilities attached, unless one lives in complete dissapation, are unavoidable. Judgement, whatever the quality of one's faculties, can be redeemed by simple honesty. Unfortunately, this requires a lot of unlearning today, when public indoctrination in both oriental and "free" nations fill our heads with simplistic moralism and superficial cliches.
Nobody is trying to reduce the history of North America to "ideological ammo" and how you've lept there is beyond me
Here's your ideological ammo:
From the usage of slaves to promises denied them after their freedom was passed to the abuse and exploitation of the native population... we are by no means in a position to judge. North America has seen no shortage of atrocities committed so that future generations of whites could enjoy the way of life they do now
Here I do not blame you for being prejudiced; no thinking man can help that. I'm blaming you for immodesty, for being someone who hopes to enjoy the fruits of conclusion without harvesting his premises.
sk -> Where did I make that claim? I didn't. I just don't care for when people aren't fair in their critique towards Japan; it's war crimes and present (and past) attitude toward them.
On July 07 2009 19:39 Eury wrote: Let's make something clear here: Japan did commit genocides and other atrocities during WW2, so don't try to whitewash that. They were as bad as Nazi Germany, just that their war crimes didn't get as much exposure here in the west.
Germany has since then made up with their past and moved on, sadly you can't say the same when it comes to Japan. They still have war criminals enshrined in Yasukuni Shrine and every now then they try to revise their history books to make them look better - even victims - during WW2. This angers a lot of countries in Asia that suffered under Japanese oppression during the war, and that anger get used by right-wing groups and/or nationalistic currents in China and Korea.
If Japan just stopped trying to whitewash their own history, removed the war criminals from Yasakuni, and offered an honest apology for what they did, then Japan could move on and leave their trouble past behind them.
Radical groups in China and Korea wouldn't have as much fuel for their hatred of Japan then either, and the relations between the countries would improve.
The meaning of "genocide" has already been discussed.
The main point I would like to make is that you can't refer to the japanese as "they".
Who's trying to whitewash what? It's not as if there is no debate about these issues in Japan; be it Yasukuni Shrine or history text books. The history text book produced in 2005 that was the spark of the latest controversy (I believe) is practically not used anywhere at all. And there were protests in Japan at that time too.
You can't fit this equation: Japan = some conservative right wing nationalists. In the same way, I can't fit: Sweden = Sverigedemokraterna.
You have a point in that the war crimes of Japan are seldom (if ever) mentioned in Swedish schools, at least not the ones I have attended. I don't know how it is in other western countries but I suspect it's the same? If so, then that's really sad.
But Japan is a healthy democratic nation. You can't portray them as some sneaky bastards secretly in love with their imperial past or whatever. It's not fair and it actually undermines critizism from those who are fair.
Eury: Nobody is trying to deny those are horrid atrocities. The issue lies with the definition of "genocide" is all.
poasiodss:
Well, if you were in AP classes during high school, I'd have to question your honesty. Starting from American History class in middle school through AP European History and AP U.S. History, my teachers always dealt at least one entire chapter on slavery.
My point is exactly that... ONE CHAPTER. One chapter covers 200 years of history. One. Compare that will how thoroughly the American Civil War or Revolutionary War are covered...
Pardon me while I get a laugh out of that. Granted, I grew up in Cali so we did a bit more than one chapter... just the same, it was typically covering the heroics on both sides.
I'm just going to state my point from the previous post since you completely overlooked it. In US, we learn about slavery. In Germany, they learn about Nazis. In Japan, they don't learn about the war crimes.
I don't know enough about Japanese education to know if they teach it or not, nor the extent of it. I do know what Mani said is true about the education here; which based on what I've read in Boxer's bio, the Koreans use the same method. Thus, if they are educated in it, the goal is to pass a test on it and nothing more. Retention past that will be limited. It is a flawed system.
No sense in even going here but... with the way the system is now, even if Japanese spent the same amount of time learning about their war crimes as they did studying English... well, the end result would still be exactly what you have now. Getting Japan to change their entire education system is a chore beyond my imagination. Though, I'd say that and other flawed education systems are part of the larger problem,.
That's a very hypocritical way of thinking. You're preaching that Korea should analyze and understand the tragedies to learn from it. How about Japan? Shouldn't it also analyze and understand this so it wouldn't happen again? As I kept saying, it's quickly being forgotten over there.
Seems like you read my statement completely opposite to my intention... sorry, English is slowly slipping from me so things like this happen. My focus was that the tragedies of those eras we wish to forget continue to this day. The problem lies in how we view those tragedies from the past. In my opinion, time spent crying about them over analyzing their root cause prevents us from being able to see the cause forming and cut it before it strikes. Largely, we do not understand how it is in our nature (as humans) to act in such a brutal manner. Before we even begin to approach the problem we should look at how this aspect of our nature causes us to feel so shamed that we repress our awareness of it.
MoltkeWarding:
If you are not in a position to judge, you are not even in a position to think. Everyone judges to one extent or another, and the responsibilities attached, unless one lives in complete dissapation, are unavoidable. Judgement, whatever the quality of one's faculties, can be redeemed by simple honesty. Unfortunately, this requires a lot of unlearning today, when public indoctrination in both oriental and "free" nations fill our heads with simplistic moralism and superficial cliches.
For someone who does his best to fill his paragraphs with needless SAT words I'm shocked at the level of ignorance in this. Honestly, most people who are decent in games tend to have done well on the SAT. I'm not really going to go in that direction as I'm trying to discuss something over measuring my internet cock. Either way, despite my horrid forum grammar and spelling, I've actually been published so there's really no sense in trying to mask your lack of understanding with pretty words. Also... I usually consider people who do this to be douches, but your spelling of the words you're trying to use as well as the grammar and flow you're structing them within clearly show they aren't within your common vernacular. When writing the first rule is to always consider the position of one's audience.
Moving on... your summary in the first point is that sans judgment one cannot think. Almost every major school of thought and method of analysis would disagree with that statement. If one cannot shed judgment they cannot think. Judgment is the barrier to clear thought. The original roots of Buddhism and Christianity both forwarded this as well as every major school of philosophy.
I understand your reference and agree with it on some levels... as humans are only capable of perception based thinking we base the root of our thoughts on our judgments; which are formed from our life experiences. However, this does not mean we are unable to shed those through analytical methods.
Here I do not blame you for being prejudiced; no thinking man can help that. I'm blaming you for immodesty, for being someone who hopes to enjoy the fruits of conclusion without harvesting his premises.
So... I'm prejudice because I don't consider Americans possess the ground to judge others due to the acts we committed to enjoy the successes we do? I'm just not sure what to say there...
I've already mentioned the great similarity between the Korean education system and the Japanese education in my last response to Mani.
So why is it that Koreans are so aware of the past while the Japanese aren't? Obviously it isn't the education system that's the main problem, it's the general attitude of the Japanese government and their people has when it comes to the issues of the past.
Also, your entire first paragraph in response to Molte is completely pointless trash; don't spew that kind of completely speculative ad hominem shit if you want anyone to take you seriously.
sk` , since when are you in Japan ? Because one thing you could notice here, especially if you live in Tokyo, is people are willing to go forward and they are not scared about the future. Japanese people don't really care about the past. look at how people change their toothbrush (i change it once a month and my cousin, Japanese native, once every 2 weeks) , their TV (every 2 years), their cars (every 2 years), their everything. and take a look at their city : everything is re-build and no one cares about cultural things blablabla (ok, exception is the imperial palace but THIS is god-like so no one can touch) etc.
What i'm trying to say here is : japanese don't understand why people in China or in Korea are always taking about ww2 and why should the younger generation (innocent) ask pardon for the old generation (considered as "war criminals"). My cousin told me once that she doesn't understand why in Europe, we have such commemorations every years about the holocaust and why it's such a big deal. It's past, end, now, let's look at the future and not always blaming around the past.
And one last thing is about the "war criminals". Ok, there are some people who actually consider these guys as "war criminals" but many Jp friends of mine tell me that still they were only fighting for their country and thei are criminal because Japan has lost the war. If Japan has won, these guys would prolly be heroes
No offense to anyone, really and I ain't saying this good or bad, i'm just saying that the way of thinking is different and I try to get the Japanese point of view since I'm here and I can discuss about it.
Koreasilver: Heh, no more rubbish than what it was in reply to.
I'd say Japanese are unaware of their past in comparison to Koreans because their culture doesn't reflect on it as a whole. I do not live in Korea so I don't know, but, if one's mother/father harps on about WW2 even though they have no direct link to it, you too will continue that. That's just pure speculation as I don't know. I think MK's point below summarizes it. Japanese seem to enjoy moving forward, especially the Tokyo population base. Compared to other population bases their economic structure is designed to give rise to renewal consumerism and this is also going to lead them to think more about the future than the past.
I'm not going to praise the Japanese way or the Korean way as one should be mindful of both the past and the future.
In refence to MK's post I've found Japanese tend to be exceptionally nervous about the future compared to Americans.
MK: So you're in the Tokyo area then? If so we should get some games in... though I'm pretty bad at SC due to starting so late and being old.
If the Japanese were really that ignorant of their history, as some suggest, I don't understand the anti-Korea sentiment of many Japanese people. The only way such widespread (and illogical) hatred could have spawned is if they know the history but somehow have a very twisted perspective of it. For one, I know that many japanese claim that koreans are being ungrateful for "modernizing" korea during the occupation.
On July 08 2009 11:47 v1rtu0so wrote: If the Japanese were really that ignorant of their history, as some suggest, I don't understand the anti-Korea sentiment of many Japanese people. The only way such widespread (and illogical) hatred could have spawned is if they know the history but somehow have a very twisted perspective of it.
What "anti-Korean" sentiment? Other than obscure manga and a few bitter old men, Korea is insanely popular in Japan. This comes despite constant media reports about how anti-Japanese some Koreans are (whether or not this is the case).
For one, I know that many japanese claim that koreans are being ungrateful for "modernizing" korea during the occupation.
Do you really know this, or is it just something you have read about? Because I have read about that, but never ever witnessed that.
On July 08 2009 11:47 v1rtu0so wrote: If the Japanese were really that ignorant of their history, as some suggest, I don't understand the anti-Korea sentiment of many Japanese people. The only way such widespread (and illogical) hatred could have spawned is if they know the history but somehow have a very twisted perspective of it. For one, I know that many japanese claim that koreans are being ungrateful for "modernizing" korea during the occupation.
ok, let's (try to) stop just using "many". Because it doesn't mean anything. If you are like saying "the majority of japanese are claming that blablabla", it's untrue. Like I've said, and Sk -who lives in japan and I guess he isn't japanese- confirms, the majority here just doesn't care about the past.
What "anti-Korean" sentiment? Other than obscure manga and a few bitter old men, Korea is insanely popular in Japan. This comes despite constant media reports about how anti-Japanese some Koreans are (whether or not this is the case).
+1. especially everything about the pop culture. many jp listen to the k-pop. Same for some chinese singers who are pretty famous here (jay chow). from what I can tell, Japan is one of the most welcoming country in the world.
On July 08 2009 11:53 v1rtu0so wrote: Let's hope what you say is true. But certainly, that is not the impression I got from my encounters.
? explain me because I've missed something. from what encounters ? Because Japanese, especially when they travel, rarely talk about politics or "severe issues".
Few japanese students from my school ( I went to a very diverse high school), although the majority are admittedly quite reticent and reserved. Japanese media online - 2C, 2ch, in fact, most of japanese netizens seem to be anti-korea. Not to mention right-wing politicians.
To clarify, I would love it if what you said were true. Sadly, I am not really getting that impression.
well, first, 2C/2ch is, for SURE, very very very biased and definitely not reflecting the global Japanese way of thinking. I mean it's like saying "ok, on 2ch you got many lolicon and creepy porn" it doesn't mean that the majority of japanese are actually lolicon or what.
about students, sorry, no argument. never been to a diverse hs and Japanese school are full of... japanese lol and students there usually never talk about this kind of things.
and finally, right-wing politicians in every country I guess are more "conservative" and "blindly patriot" than the left/central...
I never claimed to have a perfectly good measure of standard. But if you consider that 2c/2ch is one of the busiest japanese sites and the threads there regarding korea are almost always negative (along with the overwhelmingly anti-korean responses in the thread), I don't think you can blame me for assuming that there is at least a sizeable japanese population with an anti-korea sentiment.
edit: i went to an amerrican high school with a decent number of japanese students
I don't think you can blame me for assuming that there is at least a sizeable japanese population with an anti-korea sentiment.
no offense but yes I can because it is definitely NOT a sizeable japanese population compared to the global japanese population or even the global japanese population online.
I fail to see how when one of the busiest japanese sites (if not the busiest) is overwhelmingly anti-korean, that does not constitute a sizeable "global" (as opposed to?) japanese population?
you mean the busiest otaku board ? com'on, you can't be serious when you ask that. I mean, are you actually also believing that every japanese are lolicon, willing to rape everyone and still sitting on their knees when they eat ?
ok, you can say that a group of Japanese is trolling against cn/kr online but in every countries there are couple of these stupid guys. :/
On July 08 2009 11:40 sk` wrote: Koreasilver: Heh, no more rubbish than what it was in reply to.
I'd say Japanese are unaware of their past in comparison to Koreans because their culture doesn't reflect on it as a whole. I do not live in Korea so I don't know, but, if one's mother/father harps on about WW2 even though they have no direct link to it, you too will continue that. That's just pure speculation as I don't know. I think MK's point below summarizes it. Japanese seem to enjoy moving forward, especially the Tokyo population base. Compared to other population bases their economic structure is designed to give rise to renewal consumerism and this is also going to lead them to think more about the future than the past.
I'm not going to praise the Japanese way or the Korean way as one should be mindful of both the past and the future.
In refence to MK's post I've found Japanese tend to be exceptionally nervous about the future compared to Americans.
MK: So you're in the Tokyo area then? If so we should get some games in... though I'm pretty bad at SC due to starting so late and being old.
Again, the modern economics of Japan and Korea are pretty similar, and in recent years Korea is advancing at a faster pace in general compared to Japan, and Korea is expected to surpass Japan in wealth in 50 years or so. Also, it is the older generation; the grand/great grand parents of my generation that talk about the occupation era the most, not our parents. Our grandparents are very relevant as they lived through the times, and many of them are still alive.
On July 08 2009 11:47 v1rtu0so wrote: If the Japanese were really that ignorant of their history, as some suggest, I don't understand the anti-Korea sentiment of many Japanese people. The only way such widespread (and illogical) hatred could have spawned is if they know the history but somehow have a very twisted perspective of it.
What "anti-Korean" sentiment? Other than obscure manga and a few bitter old men, Korea is insanely popular in Japan. This comes despite constant media reports about how anti-Japanese some Koreans are (whether or not this is the case).
For one, I know that many japanese claim that koreans are being ungrateful for "modernizing" korea during the occupation.
Do you really know this, or is it just something you have read about? Because I have read about that, but never ever witnessed that.
Mani, you can't possibly not be aware of how Koreans in Japan were extremely marginalized until very recently, and even now there is still some tensions within Japan. Also, that "obscure" Hate The Korean Wave manga was supposedly a best seller in Japan, and even if I read that wrong, the book was widely publicized through the internet and there was a sizable uproar within Korea in response to the book. Hardly obscure.
On July 08 2009 12:00 v1rtu0so wrote: Few japanese students from my school ( I went to a very diverse high school), although the majority are admittedly quite reticent and reserved. Japanese media online - 2C, 2ch, in fact, most of japanese netizens seem to be anti-korea. Not to mention right-wing politicians.
To clarify, I would love it if what you said were true. Sadly, I am not really getting that impression.
And how different is this from how many Korean netizens are anti-Japan, and how politicians in general in Korea show a general distaste for Japan?
Mani, you can't possibly not be aware of how Koreans in Japan were extremely marginalized until very recently, and even now there is still some tensions within Japan. Also, that "obscure" Hate The Korean Wave manga was supposedly a best seller in Japan, and even if I read that wrong, the book was widely publicized through the internet and there was a sizable uproar within Korea in response to the book. Hardly obscure.
can you give a link about his "obscure" manga wave ? because I guess if I try to ask "anti-korean manga" in the manga kisa next to my office, I won't find anything like that.
Kenkanryu (‘Hating ‘The Korean Wave’’), a comic book by a hitherto unknown author under the pseudonym of Yamano Sharin (the author maintains anonymity) with strong anti-Korean content, became an unlikely bestseller in Japan in 2005.
MK and ecael: I never claimed that every japanese is anti-korea, just that there is a good-size sector of the japanese populace that seems anti-korea. For your info., 2ch probably does represents the worse side of japan, but it is way more mainstream than 4chan ever will be. I don't think 2ch/2c can be ignored so easily, given that they are the biggest sites in japan.
Koreasilver: It is not much different. I never claimed that... I was pointing out earlier that that the some of the japanese have anti-korea sentiment shows that they are not ignorant of history -- but perhaps misinformed.
Mani, you can't possibly not be aware of how Koreans in Japan were extremely marginalized until very recently, and even now there is still some tensions within Japan. Also, that "obscure" Hate The Korean Wave manga was supposedly a best seller in Japan, and even if I read that wrong, the book was widely publicized through the internet and there was a sizable uproar within Korea in response to the book. Hardly obscure.
Again, is this something that "many Japanese" supported, or just government policy. It would have been admirable if the Japanese voter had made this issue a priority, but they are by no means the only majority group to ignore the plight of minorities in their country.
As for the manga, mainstream media refused to advertise it, and much of the sales were driven by curiosity, and even boycotts. Not everyone who bought the manga supported it. America sells 15,000 copies of Mein Kampf per year, does that mean those people subscribe to it?
I'm sure there is anti-Korean sentiment in Japan, but to claim it is at the level that v1rtu0so says, I just haven't seen evidence of that.
If the Japanese were really that ignorant of their history, as some suggest, I don't understand the anti-Korea sentiment of many Japanese people. The only way such widespread (and illogical) hatred could have spawned is if they know the history but somehow have a very twisted perspective of it. For one, I know that many japanese claim that koreans are being ungrateful for "modernizing" korea during the occupation.
edit- I guess the next step is for me to grab a camera and interview some people. Anyone want to sponsor some research? I require a dictionary and 3 beers an hour.
You don't have to know history to hate someone. I mean, I've met a lot of people through my life that really didn't have solid reasons for hating something, but hate it regardless diligently.
Kenkanryu (‘Hating ‘The Korean Wave’’), a comic book by a hitherto unknown author under the pseudonym of Yamano Sharin (the author maintains anonymity) with strong anti-Korean content, became an unlikely bestseller in Japan in 2005.
I just found the first link, so I have no idea about the information in there as I'm reading it right now. It's rather long.
thanks for the link btw. didn't know about that.
"Is this not an example of the manipulation of the reader's impression through beautifying those who support you and portraying those who oppose you otherwise, which we have criticized China and Korea for doing?"
On July 08 2009 12:36 v1rtu0so wrote: MK and ecael: I never claimed that every japanese is anti-korea, just that there is a good-size sector of the japanese populace that seems anti-korea. For your info., 2ch probably does represents the worse side of japan, but it is way more mainstream than 4chan ever will be. I don't think 2ch/2c can be ignored so easily, given that they are the biggest sites in japan.
So you are suggesting that 2ch is mainstream enough to be a considerable factor, then? But even that is inherently flawed a way to look at the matter. Let's take posting habits on 2ch, the amount of trolling, self-responding via different account and bandwagoning is incredible. The traffic that it generates is hardly a good enough indicator anymore of powerful the sentiment is. The best way you can look at it is through its manifestation on the public sphere, not to point at an environment where people are protected by anonymity to fill their ego as much as they want. The 4chan comparison is still accurate, 2ch has generated buzz, but it simply doesn't wield real power.
Mani I'll record questions in my halfassed Japanese and you can just chill with an ipod and a mic! Can't afford to keep up with your alcohol tab though :p
Mani, you can't possibly not be aware of how Koreans in Japan were extremely marginalized until very recently, and even now there is still some tensions within Japan. Also, that "obscure" Hate The Korean Wave manga was supposedly a best seller in Japan, and even if I read that wrong, the book was widely publicized through the internet and there was a sizable uproar within Korea in response to the book. Hardly obscure.
Again, is this something that "many Japanese" supported, or just government policy. It would have been admirable if the Japanese voter had made this issue a priority, but they are by no means the only majority group to ignore the plight of minorities in their country.
As for the manga, mainstream media refused to advertise it, and much of the sales were driven by curiosity, and even boycotts. Not everyone who bought the manga supported it. America sells 15,000 copies of Mein Kampf per year, does that mean those people subscribe to it?
The marginalization was just a cultural aftereffect of the occupation era where the Japanese people in general looked as Koreans as lesser, as the Koreans were from a subordinate colony. This specifically didn't really have much to do with the government; just general social workings. Social feelings got better as time passed and the younger generations of both countries began to like each other more, and I believe it's continuing to get better.
For the manga, no, just because it was a bestseller doesn't mean everyone that purchased the books agreed with what was said. However, because it was a bestseller, and because there was such a big deal about that manga, it just further confuses me as to why the general Japanese sentiments towards the past is still so withdrawn. I mean, my earlier argument in this thread has pretty much been shattered as if what has been said in this thread is true, then the Japanese do have a noticeable amount of contact with their history.
I have no idea. I haven't had any first-hand experience with these Japanese texts that brought up issues, nor do I have any access to primary sources to make my own opinion without being filtered through a biased media.
I can say I see some anti-Korea sentiments here, but they are on par with the fact that Japanese are by-in-large racist via homogeneous existence. This is no different than anti-whatever you see in every country and will vary person to person. To say Japanese are like this as a whole would be the same as saying any culture is like that as a whole... the stroke is just too broad.
I will say of the people I consider friends here 10% dislike Koreans because Koreans bitch at them so much (which is why I brought that topic up here), 60% have been to Korea and the remaining 30% would go to Korea if they could afford it. And well... 100% tell me awful dog-eating stories I refuse to believe... that shit isn't true right? I want to go to Korea but like, I love dogs more than... well anything. In fact, we should turn this thread into a cute puppies posting thread and quit all this debating non-sense.
Bwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa face exploding from cutenesssssssssssssss
From my experience, it's not so much anti-korean as it is quasi-anti-foreign?
Unless I'm misinformed, japanese citizenship is not awarded automatically at birth just because you were born in Japan; but by the nationality of your parents. So if you're born to korean parents in Japan that would exclude you from citizenship and you would in effect be discriminated.
This may not be entirely true, but I felt that as a visitor (and perhaps especially as a caucasian?) you get treated well and, given the right circumstances, people are open and friendly just because you're not the same as everybody else. But from what I've read on other forums the situation is different if you actually live there; not as a visitor anymore. That it's hard to fit in and be accepted. I wouldn't know as I haven't tried it though.
No one can deny that the attitude Koreans and Chinese have to their past with Japan is vastly different to the attitude Japanese have to Koreans, Chinese or Americans.
Japan is a conservative country with quite some xenophobia. The US never apologized for the fire bombing of Tokyo or the atomic bombs yet this doesn't result in young Japanese longing for revenge and hating young Americans. This is the case in Korea and China. We have even seen examples on this board. And yes, the Japanese government has seen no reason to try to diffuse the situation.
Japan is not a western country. It's not a functional democracy. People are not equal to the law, etc etc. Of course China is one of the most repressive regimes on the planet. Yes, it's a result of the difficulties of trying to keep their country united. But it's true nonetheless.
Also, the relationships between Asian countries is very very different from those in Europe. Europe is the continent with the most and the most bloody wars. Yet they seem to make peace as easily as they make wars. In east-asia almost no country has very warm relationships with any other. It's China vs Taiwan, N Korea vs S Korea. S Korea vs China. China vs Japan, S Korea vs Japan, N Korea vs Japan, Russia vs Japan. They could have more economic cooperation/integration. They could have a monetary union. They could cooperate in research and space exploration. But they don't. Every time they do talk they talk as if WWII happened only 10 years ago and they of course have to deal with the problem of N Korea.
Luckily Japan does suffer from the same syndrome as Germany. Germany was the most civilized country in the world. They had the top philosophers, the best composers, a rich literary culture with many big names. Yet they elected Hitler into power and followed him into war just after WWI and did nothing to stop the genocide. It seems that losing a war does teach a country and a people a lesson. Try to imagine a Japan without it.
Also, both S Korea and Japan are under the sphere of influence of the US big time. They both depend on the US. And that comes at a price. Politicians in both countries know this. Even in Europe where countries are independent politicians still bow to the power of the US. It's even harder not to do so in Japan or S Korea. So that's what happens. And of course this even more a problem for a united east asia.
On July 09 2009 02:59 Diomedes wrote: No one can deny that the attitude Koreans and Chinese have to their past with Japan is vastly different to the attitude Japanese have to Koreans, Chinese or Americans.
Japan is a conservative country with quite some xenophobia. The US never apologized for the fire bombing of Tokyo or the atomic bombs yet this doesn't result in young Japanese longing for revenge and hating young Americans. This is the case in Korea and China. We have even seen examples on this board. And yes, the Japanese government has seen no reason to try to diffuse the situation.
Japan is not a western country. It's not a functional democracy. People are not equal to the law, etc etc. Of course China is one of the most repressive regimes on the planet. Yes, it's a result of the difficulties of trying to keep their country united. But it's true nonetheless.
Also, the relationships between Asian countries is very very different from those in Europe. Europe is the continent with the most and the most bloody wars. Yet they seem to make peace as easily as they make wars. In east-asia almost no country has very warm relationships with any other. It's China vs Taiwan, N Korea vs S Korea. S Korea vs China. China vs Japan, S Korea vs Japan, N Korea vs Japan, Russia vs Japan. They could have more economic cooperation/integration. They could have a monetary union. They could cooperate in research and space exploration. But they don't. Every time they do talk they talk as if WWII happened only 10 years ago and they of course have to deal with the problem of N Korea.
Luckily Japan does suffer from the same syndrome as Germany. Germany was the most civilized country in the world. They had the top philosophers, the best composers, a rich literary culture with many big names. Yet they elected Hitler into power and followed him into war just after WWI and did nothing to stop the genocide. It seems that losing a war does teach a country and a people a lesson. Try to imagine a Japan without it.
Also, both S Korea and Japan are under the sphere of influence of the US big time. They both depend on the US. And that comes at a price. Politicians in both countries know this. Even in Europe where countries are independent politicians still bow to the power of the US. It's even harder not to do so in Japan or S Korea. So that's what happens. And of course this even more a problem for a united east asia.
ParasitJonte: I am not versed in the law on this matter here, but by my understanding, if you were born here you could apply for citizenship even if your parents are not Japanese. However, Japan does not allow dual citizenship, so if your mother is Japanese and your father Chinese, you must select one or the other by 20.
In terms of foreigners, we can never become citizens, but there's Permanent Resident Status that we can attain after a number of years. Usually it is granted to foreigners who have children with a national. Japanese don't seem to want to get to the business of having kids, so they are trying a little to be 1% nicer to foreigners. Still, we get shit on big time.
In terms of how friendly people are... it all comes down to the person. Some people are xenophobes, some aren't. It is the same in every country.
v1rtu0so : are you trolling ? because your NO-argumentation starts to piss me off.
And yes, in Japan, you can NEVER be Japanese if you are foreigner. This leads to good point : Japan is very homogeneous so not many ethnic problems like recently in China for example. But, Japan is also getting older and older (no immigration and the birth rate is low) : how to deal then ? Especially for a country like Japan where almost everything is so customers-oriented and need massive working force (many "useless jobs" -this is only my opinion so don't hate me if you actually do that- like the street-crossing guard, the women in museum, the vending machine guard, the elevator-girls etc...).
BUT, please, don't say Japan is racist or Xenophobe because I really don't think it is true. Once again, Japan, especially Tokyo, where I live, is one of the most welcoming place in the world.
And yes, there are shit people and trolls everywhere but definitely, the global trend here is : nice.
So, hope everyone can come and discover this country before hating it.
That was the first time I have provided so called "no-argumentation" and rightly so, in my opinion, because he did just pile bunch of rubbish. Let's not get personal here.
On July 08 2009 12:36 v1rtu0so wrote: MK and ecael: I never claimed that every japanese is anti-korea, just that there is a good-size sector of the japanese populace that seems anti-korea. For your info., 2ch probably does represents the worse side of japan, but it is way more mainstream than 4chan ever will be. I don't think 2ch/2c can be ignored so easily, given that they are the biggest sites in japan.
So you are suggesting that 2ch is mainstream enough to be a considerable factor, then? But even that is inherently flawed a way to look at the matter. Let's take posting habits on 2ch, the amount of trolling, self-responding via different account and bandwagoning is incredible. The traffic that it generates is hardly a good enough indicator anymore of powerful the sentiment is. The best way you can look at it is through its manifestation on the public sphere, not to point at an environment where people are protected by anonymity to fill their ego as much as they want. The 4chan comparison is still accurate, 2ch has generated buzz, but it simply doesn't wield real power.
Mani I'll record questions in my halfassed Japanese and you can just chill with an ipod and a mic! Can't afford to keep up with your alcohol tab though :p
I would argue that under the veil of anonymity, people are more free to express their true feelings. Just consider the things you might do when no one is around. Of course, there will be some trolling, especially in boards like this, but you can't say everyone on that site is trolling -- trolls aren't really trolling if they try to troll other trolls...basically there still needs to be a non-trolling majority who are there to be trolled by the trolls Bandwagoning? I will certainly give you that -- but doesn't that still reflect the attitude of many people, albeit exaggerated?
FYI, threads about korea in these sites go mostly like this: 1) Some news article about korea 2-20) some cynical negative comments about korea 21) a neutral comment about korea 22) (referring to 21)) what are you, a gook? 23) (referring to 21) get out, gook 24-30) more cynical negative comments about korea
I would argue that if there were a troll in this thread, it would be 21) and not anyone else.
Bringing up the fact that there are always going to be some sour grapes in a country, while true, is not relevant to the discussion. Of course, there are Japanese people who are not xenophobic, pro-korea, friendly etc. The point is to highlight certain sectors in society that -- for the lack of better term -- "have problems."
I have never generalized the japanese as the average 2ch/2c netizen; that is utterly foolish. But, I cant help but think that such hateful group of people do exist -- and in some numbers it seems -- in japan.
Virt: You can't enter 2ch or 4ch as reference because those places attract the scum of society. Of course you're going to get nothing but racists and other low-lifes.
But, I cant help but think that such hateful group of people do exist -- and in some numbers it seems -- in japan.
You mean... people are humans? Yes, this is an amazing epiphany, nasty people exist everywhere. Glad you've had it. And?
Most of us that have long had that epiphany don't let trolls (of the IRL variety) pee in our punch.
Today I am going to teach a lesson with a group of adults, and one of the topics will be images of a country vs the image of a country. Maybe I can collect some rudimentary data for you guys.
v1rtu0so, just saying that there are scums in every country and of every ethnicity doesn't quite tell us much. In your example, we have no way of proving that responses 2~30 aren't simply 1 posting again, the kind of staged trolling particularly common with 2ch simply due to the way it is. Your point up to now was to say that the kind of behavior you see on 2ch makes you believe there is a problem. Then now suggests that the problem can be particularly visible with a certain group of people. Now where are we at? If we were to concentrate on 'that' as an issue, then we can no longer point at Japan. Instead, we are going to find selective groups everywhere that qualifies for the kind of action that disturb you. But you said yourself, bringing up the fact that there are always going to be a subset of people who are the troublemakers, that this is irrelevant to the discussion. So...what is your point really? Do you want to suggest that something about those groups in Japan allows us to isolate the country specifically and point fingers at it? If so, you haven't really brought up such an unique quality yet far as I can see.
About anonymity, it allows people to express their true feelings, ones they would not express otherwise. How likely are people going to have the ability to act on those feelings then?
It reminds me that another crazy Kr said that journey to the west was Korean ahah
ahah these guys can't be serious.
PS : reminds me that my Japanese Teacher told me Japanese was the most difficult language in the world... and my Chinese Teacher said that Chinese was the most difficult... and, oh yeah, my French teacher told me French was the most accurate language in the world and the grammar was for sure the most logical.... ahah
Japanese is easy to translate? This guy is obviously overflowing with talent, I'd like some too please, since I certainly don't find it easy to translate -.-
Besides, he keeps blabbering about the nobel prize firstly as if it only involves the prize in literature. And, with that assumption, seems to imply that things somehow need to be translated into English to be eligible for a prize. If anything, it needs to be translated into Swedish.
I don't know korean but it's just plain stupid to claim that complexity is a necessity for expressivness. Clearly this guy is a troll; and a bad one at that.
On July 09 2009 02:59 Diomedes wrote: No one can deny that the attitude Koreans and Chinese have to their past with Japan is vastly different to the attitude Japanese have to Koreans, Chinese or Americans.
Japan is a conservative country with quite some xenophobia. The US never apologized for the fire bombing of Tokyo or the atomic bombs yet this doesn't result in young Japanese longing for revenge and hating young Americans. This is the case in Korea and China. We have even seen examples on this board. And yes, the Japanese government has seen no reason to try to diffuse the situation.
Japan is not a western country. It's not a functional democracy. People are not equal to the law, etc etc. Of course China is one of the most repressive regimes on the planet. Yes, it's a result of the difficulties of trying to keep their country united. But it's true nonetheless.
Also, the relationships between Asian countries is very very different from those in Europe. Europe is the continent with the most and the most bloody wars. Yet they seem to make peace as easily as they make wars. In east-asia almost no country has very warm relationships with any other. It's China vs Taiwan, N Korea vs S Korea. S Korea vs China. China vs Japan, S Korea vs Japan, N Korea vs Japan, Russia vs Japan. They could have more economic cooperation/integration. They could have a monetary union. They could cooperate in research and space exploration. But they don't. Every time they do talk they talk as if WWII happened only 10 years ago and they of course have to deal with the problem of N Korea.
Luckily Japan does suffer from the same syndrome as Germany. Germany was the most civilized country in the world. They had the top philosophers, the best composers, a rich literary culture with many big names. Yet they elected Hitler into power and followed him into war just after WWI and did nothing to stop the genocide. It seems that losing a war does teach a country and a people a lesson. Try to imagine a Japan without it.
Also, both S Korea and Japan are under the sphere of influence of the US big time. They both depend on the US. And that comes at a price. Politicians in both countries know this. Even in Europe where countries are independent politicians still bow to the power of the US. It's even harder not to do so in Japan or S Korea. So that's what happens. And of course this even more a problem for a united east asia.
The reason why this is a bunch of rubbish is because during the Cold War, the Chinese government did ignore the atrocities committed by Japan during WWII do strengthen economic ties to Japan (don't know much about Korea-Japan relations). Japan's refusal to acknowledge it's war crimes in WWII is akin to Germany refusing to acknowledge the Holocaust, which would surely spur outrage. Germany had paid $120 billion in reparations to the allies and Israel by the year 2000, while Japan hasn't made any reparations whatsoever.
The outrage directed at the Japanese government by Chinese, Koreans, and other Asians whose countries were devastated by Japan during WWII is understandable. To hate Japanese as a people would obviously be wrong, but I've yet to meet a young Korean or Chinese person who actually hates Japanese people. While surely many Chinese and Koreans bash Japan, the vast majority don't hate the Japanese as a people. There will always be people in any culture who can't put history behind them, like the small (I'm assuming) minority of Jews who like to complain and whine about the Holocaust as if Germany never apologized for it on behalf of the Nazis. The difference with Japan's raping of the rest of eastern Asia is that Japan pretty much got off scot free with genocide.
They went to Myeongdong which is basically a very Japanese friendly area in Seoul - most of the Japanese tourists visit there because it is one of the best shopping districts in the city and a lot of the young women promoting outside the stores for places like Skin Food/The Face Shop and Etude House (all beauty product shops.) speak Japanese as well as Korean. A lot of signs are also translated into Japanese and there are places to exchange Yen etc.
I think if they'd done this in certain other parts of Seoul or outside of the city then they would have met with a very different reaction. The majority of older people (especially war veterans.) have negative sentiments towards Japan and Japanese citizens. It is the younger generation which seems less inclined to follow the feelings of their older relatives (perhaps because they are much less connected to the times in question such as the 1910 annexation and the assimilation of Korea into Japanese culture through name changing initiatives in such a literal manner.)
It is pretty weird to think that two people would feel strongly enough to waste so much money flying over here just to troll Koreans, but who knows what motivates individuals.
The reason why this is a bunch of rubbish is because during the Cold War, the Chinese government did ignore the atrocities committed by Japan during WWII do strengthen economic ties to Japan (don't know much about Korea-Japan relations).
So? After WWII relations between China and Japan have changed many times. Did I ever deny that? And did I ever say whose fault it is that there is still tensions between basically every east Asian country? Fact is that WWII is an issue every time there is a high level meeting.
One person accused me of being pro Japan and another of being anti Japan. That is very telling.
Japan's refusal to acknowledge it's war crimes in WWII is akin to Germany refusing to acknowledge the Holocaust, which would surely spur outrage.
No. Definite no. It doesn't compare at all to the holocaust. It may be quite a large and cruel atrocity. But it is an atrocity of the type one sees very often in war. Very unlike the holocaust.
It's also not true there has been no apology. No satisfying apology maybe.
Germany had paid $120 billion in reparations to the allies and Israel by the year 2000, while Japan hasn't made any reparations whatsoever.
Reparations are the spoils of war, as cynical as that may be. Japan payed them. They just payed them as the US told them to do.
The outrage directed at the Japanese government by Chinese, Koreans, and other Asians whose countries were devastated by Japan during WWII is understandable. To hate Japanese as a people would obviously be wrong, but I've yet to meet a young Korean or Chinese person who actually hates Japanese people.
There are plenty of young Koreans and Chinese who hold grudges against Japanese people because of WWII. Very different from Europe once again.
Also, Mao is responsible for the death of 44.5 to 72 million in peace time and he is a revered person in China. Also, it's more recent. This can't be an excuse used by Japan. But this shows it's all selective and people could put aside their differences if they wanted.
While surely many Chinese and Koreans bash Japan, the vast majority don't hate the Japanese as a people.
You use the word 'hate'. I never called Japan 'racist'. I called them xenophobic. I also never claimed there is hate towards the Japanese people. It's not that simple. Just because it isn't hateful racism that doesn't mean there isn't a problem.
There will always be people in any culture who can't put history behind them, like the small (I'm assuming) minority of Jews who like to complain and whine about the Holocaust as if Germany never apologized for it on behalf of the Nazis. The difference with Japan's raping of the rest of eastern Asia is that Japan pretty much got off scot free with genocide.
Fact is that Europe saw the most atrocities. Yet Europe got over it. Asia didn't. Plus they made a bunch of new conflicts. Asia is guilty of this. You think it's all Japan's fault. Fine. I don't care how you judge. But the fact remains and you can't call it bullshit and then attack Japan with faulty arguments. Yes, if one has to single out one country it has to be Japan. But besides Japan there is still a lot of bad blood that doesn't involve them. Especially if you take all of Asia. There are only a few countries that have very warm relations with each other.
The reason why this is a bunch of rubbish is because during the Cold War, the Chinese government did ignore the atrocities committed by Japan during WWII do strengthen economic ties to Japan (don't know much about Korea-Japan relations).
So? After WWII relations between China and Japan have changed many times. Did I ever deny that? And did I ever say whose fault it is that there is still tensions between basically every east Asian country? Fact is that WWII is an issue every time there is a high level meeting.
One person accused me of being pro Japan and another of being anti Japan. That is very telling.
Japan's refusal to acknowledge it's war crimes in WWII is akin to Germany refusing to acknowledge the Holocaust, which would surely spur outrage.
No. Definite no. It doesn't compare at all to the holocaust. It may be quite a large and cruel atrocity. But it is an atrocity of the type one sees very often in war. Very unlike the holocaust.
The Holocaust was a systematic mass killing of civilians in Europe committed by the Nazis with deaths numbering in the millions, whereas the Japanese Imperial Army during WWII committed...systematic mass killing of civilians in Asia with deaths numbering in the millions. Very different.
It's also not true there has been no apology. No satisfying apology maybe.
I didn't say there was no apology; I said the Japanese government has never admitted to committing war crimes/genocide. Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi gave a vague, cop-out apology which meant very little if anything. link: http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2005-04-22-japan-china_x.htm
Germany had paid $120 billion in reparations to the allies and Israel by the year 2000, while Japan hasn't made any reparations whatsoever.
Right Reparations are the spoils of war, as cynical as that may be. Japan payed them. They just payed them as the US told them to do.
[/QUOTE]
Reparations would be spoils of war if an invading country robbed the country it invaded. If however, a country was utterly destroyed and reduced to abject squalor by an aggressor it only makes sense for the aggressor to pay them for the damage after they lose. It's like if someone blew up your house and you demanded restitution for it. Obviously you can't expect proper war reparations to be paid after most wars and can point to countless examples where they aren't (US vs every country it's fought a war with), but it doesn't make it any less unfair.
The outrage directed at the Japanese government by Chinese, Koreans, and other Asians whose countries were devastated by Japan during WWII is understandable. To hate Japanese as a people would obviously be wrong, but I've yet to meet a young Korean or Chinese person who actually hates Japanese people.
There are plenty of young Koreans and Chinese who hold grudges against Japanese people because of WWII. Very different from Europe once again.
Also, Mao is responsible for the death of 44.5 to 72 million in peace time and he is a revered person in China. Also, it's more recent. This can't be an excuse used by Japan. But this shows it's all selective and people could put aside their differences if they wanted.
A lot of Chinese people dislike/hate Mao too. Except Mao's crimes were less obvious and are not taught in Chinese schools (obviously). His policies caused the starvation of millions and though his regime did kill people directly, they didn't just go around killing, raping, torturing and in the streets and blowing up the country like the Japanese did, so many Chinese are not aware of how bad he was. It's like how millions around the world died because of the policies of the US. You don't/didn't see many Americans trying to impeach every president from Carter to Reagan to Clinton for either committing war crimes or being complicit in them (intentionally targeting civilians, funding and training genocidal thugs in most central American countries for example).
[/quote]While surely many Chinese and Koreans bash Japan, the vast majority don't hate the Japanese as a people.[/quote]
You use the word 'hate'. I never called Japan 'racist'. I called them xenophobic. I also never claimed there is hate towards the Japanese people. It's not that simple. Just because it isn't hateful racism that doesn't mean there isn't a problem.
By bash I meant make stupid jokes or insults, not take to the streets and beat up Japs. Unless your a hyper-politically correct idiot, I don't see how that's a problem.
There will always be people in any culture who can't put history behind them, like the small (I'm assuming) minority of Jews who like to complain and whine about the Holocaust as if Germany never apologized for it on behalf of the Nazis. The difference with Japan's raping of the rest of eastern Asia is that Japan pretty much got off scot free with genocide.
Fact is that Europe saw the most atrocities. Yet Europe got over it. Asia didn't. Plus they made a bunch of new conflicts. Asia is guilty of this. You think it's all Japan's fault. Fine. I don't care how you judge. But the fact remains and you can't call it bullshit and then attack Japan with faulty arguments. Yes, if one has to single out one country it has to be Japan. But besides Japan there is still a lot of bad blood that doesn't involve them. Especially if you take all of Asia. There are only a few countries that have very warm relations with each other.
Although you can't repay the cost of lost lives, you can pay for physical damage caused by war. Most of Europe (all of Western Europe) got repaid for it under the loans of Marshall plan and former Axis nation reparations. Most of Asia didn't. I'm not demanding war reparations on behalf of the Asian countries that got raped by Japan, I'm just saying they didn't receive any, which makes the situation different from Europe. And yes, invading countries just to steal resources obviously put Japan at fault for WWII in Asia.
"A bunch of new conflicts" in Asia since WWII have nothing to do with people just hating on each other and not being able to get over stuff. There is a much greater political context for any armed or political conflict. You can't accuse an entire region of the world of not being able to let go of the past and make friends with each other and attribute it's current situation to that when there are so many other actual factors to consider. For example, the reason why relations between communist China and Korean and Japan are weaker than those between countries in the EU is because the latter two are close allies of the US, whereas China is a threat/rival to the US. The implications of that should be blatantly obvious.
I'm surprised we're 15 pages into this and people don't know the difference between the Holocaust; which was a massive genocide, and what Japan did to Asia. No matter how you twist and ring the data you cannot get genocide from Japan's actions. Nobody is dumb enough to deny they were horrid atrocities; however, there is a large gap between being absolute villains and committing genocide.
If the data on Gemany's reparations is true, then you pretty much have the exact reason (as I hinted at) for the Japanese government's refusal to formally apologize. As I said, Japan turned its aggressive energy to its economy. Taking a $120B hit isn't exactly inclusive to that. But again, this is the government and not the guy on the street.
Europe didn't "get over it." What they did was get split between the US and the USSR. They banded together for the sake of survival. The USSR created the Eastern bloc and the USA created NATO. Both of these coalitions were created out of political and military necessity. Therefore, a lot of the divisions caused by WW2 were closed up because of the Cold War.
Asia did not have a Cold War because there were no two opposing power blocs competing for influence there. Instead it was multilateral. The few places there were Cold War confrontations, you saw either great devastation or a split. AKA China/Taiwan, N and S Korea, Vietnam, Cambodia, etc.
On July 12 2009 12:26 sk` wrote: I'm surprised we're 15 pages into this and people don't know the difference between the Holocaust; which was a massive genocide, and what Japan did to Asia. No matter how you twist and ring the data you cannot get genocide from Japan's actions. Nobody is dumb enough to deny they were horrid atrocities; however, there is a large gap between being absolute villains and committing genocide.
If the data on Gemany's reparations is true, then you pretty much have the exact reason (as I hinted at) for the Japanese government's refusal to formally apologize. As I said, Japan turned its aggressive energy to its economy. Taking a $120B hit isn't exactly inclusive to that. But again, this is the government and not the guy on the street.
I'm surprised after 50+ years, some people don't know that what the Nazis did wasn't genocide, it was ethnic cleansing. Genocide is when they succeed. What they did was ethnic cleansing. Japan did the same. They made an attempt at slaughtering entire populations and their violence was racially motivated. How is this any different than what the Nazis did? They didn't just kill Jews you know. They killed gypsies, gays, etc as well.
And WW2 isn't the first time Japan's committed genocide or ethnic cleansing. It's just the most recent time. They've got a long history of it.
Regardless, you sound pretty silly when you say the slaughter of millions in Asia isn't quite as bad as this other slaughter of millions in Europe. What exactly is the difference? It's more horrifying to die in concentration camps rather than bayoneting women in the vagina, burying people up to their heads in the ground, and then running them over with lawnmowers and vehicles? It's less evil? You make it sound like the Japanese killings of civilians was done as individual acts by deranged soldiers. It wasn't. They were ordered to mass murder civilians by the Japanese chain of command.
It's funny the OP tries to paint Korea as a tolerant country. I lived in Seoul for 3 years teaching English. They're probably the most racist group of developed Asians in the world. Women hating, racist nationalists. They're OK on the surface, but get a few beers in them, get to know them and it pours out.
BisuBoi: As English is not your native language I'll forgive a blatant mis-use of a word as long as you're willing to learn... which, I think this thread has explained the meaning of genocide several times. First, for it to succeed being the only case in which the word is used is wrong. By logic, if that was true, there would be no genocides (fundamentally impossible). Additionally, the actual creation of the word was in relation to the German extermination of Jews. It was created in 1944.
I am well aware they were ordered to do what they did. That doesn't make it genocide. For it to be genocide their motivation has to be the extermination of the ethnic group. In the case of WW2 they were rampaging as a means to control and suppress. Extremination was not the overall goal as those regions were sought for colonial aspirations as well as economic benefit.
Understand, this is not saying Japan is not guilty of war crimes, merely there is a gap between that and the term genocide which is greatly misused here. Also understand, a nation or group does not need to be guilty of genocide to be guilty of war crimes.
Okay, I found a definition for genocide: "any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole OR IN PART, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life, calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; [and] forcibly transferring children of the group to another group."
Therefore, by that definition you are correct and I'm wrong. But you are wrong to say the Japanese did not commit genocide. In fact, what the Japanese did during WW2 qualifies in every one of the criteria stated by UN law.
1. Killing members of the group: Do I need to explain what the Japanese did to fulfill this criterion? 2. Serious bodily or mental harm: ditto 3. Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part: http:// en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnamese_Famine_of_1945 This is only one of many many incidents created by the Japanese for the express purpose of killing off the native population in large numbers. 4. Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group: http:// en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comfort_women 5. Forcibly transferring children from one group to another: http:// en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Japanese-run_internment_camps_during_World_War_II
You are not well-aware of what they were ordered to do. If you were, you wouldn't say something as stupid as "the Japanese did not commit genocide." By the definition of the word created in 1944, which you first quoted, the Japanese fulfilled not one, but ALL definitions of the word genocide. The definition of the word states IN PART. The Japanese most assuredly tried their best to destroy in part the entire race of Chinese people, as well as Koreans, Vietnamese, Indonesians, Filipinos, etc etc.
Maybe you should read up on Japanese war crimes and ask yourself if you can say with a clear conscience that what the Japanese did was only for the purposes of waging war and any tragedy that befell their victims was only the byproduct of Japanese strategic war efforts.
"According to the findings of the Tokyo Tribunal, the death rate among POWs from Asian countries, held by Japan was 27.1%. The death rate of Chinese POWs was much larger because—under a directive ratified on August 5, 1937 by Emperor Hirohito—the constraints of international law on treatment of those prisoners was removed. Only 56 Chinese POWs were released after the surrender of Japan."
You'll have to pardon me if I don't see that definition... here's something a little more trustworthy, from Merriam-Webster: geno·cide Pronunciation: \ˈje-nə-ˌsīd\ Function: noun Date: 1944 : the deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group
Was their action systematic? To be systematic they would need to engage in the same system of destruction across all the regions, in this case their approach to suppressing and conquer was not systematic, but designed for the territory.
Were they aimed at a racial, political, or cultural group? All three at no. Racial: they attacked too many races (if you want to label the various Asians as separate races) or they attacked their own race (if you want to label all Asians as one race (I believe the first is more exact). Political: again, since the scope of their target was too wide, it is impossible to say they were attacking a political group. Cultural: once again, they are either too wide or self-inclusive.
Most importantly though, as with your other argument patterns, you ignore the details of your own point to select the parts that suit you. For example, "any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole OR IN PART, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group" I don't know what came before this, but something did. More importantly, even if we take this slice as-is, it is the lead of the definition and thus the most important clause, all other clauses are examples that one could use to carry out the lead clause.
So, did the Japanese intend to destroy who or in part a national, ethical, racial, or religious group? We can toss out religious and racial given the prior examples. Ethical is essentially the same as racial in this context as well, so we are only left the with "national" set. However, once again, you see a pattern of conquest and not the intent to destroy the national group. For example, if we look at the classic Nanking atrocity if Japan's goal was to destroy the national group they wouldn't have paused at just the city. The would have continue to push into China and continued to wipe them out.
Additionally, you see the same pattern in other regions. They held the Philippines Island long enough to destroy the native population; but instead the held and fortified the island. Their goal was to seize the worth of the island and not exterminate the national population.
This is the same in Korea and Vietnam as well.
Generally, aside from these forums I've never seen Japan's actions labeled as genocide. I guess that's just how it is taught in China, but every single historical piece on the era labels them as war crimes, but not genocide. There is a reason for this.
Also, the Merriam-Webster point has no "in part", but again, that's really not the point. Until you can prove their objective was to wipe out Asia completely (based on the scope of their military targets) you can't raise the concept of genocide. Their actions are were clearly conquest, which often went out of hand and crossed into the realm of war crimes. Honestly, by your very loose interpretation of the meaning of genocide all wars waged with the goal of conquest would fall as genocides. No.
I'm using the legal definition used by the 1948 UN Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide. It is the exact law that you referenced in your previous post.
To then call it not credible and cherry pick your own definition out of Merriam-Webster's stinks of desperation. Don't try to get semantical when it's plain as day that the Japanese were committing genocide just as much as the Nazis were. Or is there some outside bias which makes you have an aversion to the Japanese own up to their actions?
Look up your own damn sources before you start spewing them. "Additionally, the actual creation of the word was in relation to the German extermination of Jews. It was created in 1944." Raphael Lemkin coined the word and it was his work which ratified the later UN LAW of 1948! This is the law I quote word for word!
I have no problem debating with people but it needs to be ethical. You're not being ethical in your arguments. You're grasping at straws here. Furthermore, there was a deliberate focus on the Chinese. The Emperor Hirohito himself repealed all rights of Chinese POW while ONLY doing so for Chinese POWs. This is a direct example of special discrimination against the Chinese, much as the Germans did to the Jews.
The only reason it's not labeled genocide in the West is because there isn't as great of a PR campaign by the Chinese to have it labeled as genocide. Whereas the term genocide was especially created by a Jew to further the publicity of what was done to them. I find it pathetic that you are trying to argue now that what the Japanese did was not genocide and was purely for the purposes of military benefit. Beyond belief.
Actually, if you read my post I dismantled your definition as well. So there was no cherry picking, but rather, I demonstrated that when we don't ignore the first clause of the definition you sourced the definition of genocide does not fit. Now, if we mine our definitions as you attempted to, then you can MAKE IT FIT, but that goes against any notion of debate and falls under the banner of disinformation.
So lack of PR by the Chinese is why it isn't genocide now? Uh... good talking to you, post again when you're not just a cog in some propaganda machine.
On July 12 2009 13:02 BisuBoi wrote: I'm surprised after 50+ years, some people don't know that what the Nazis did wasn't genocide, it was ethnic cleansing. Genocide is when they succeed. What they did was ethnic cleansing. Japan did the same.
WTF
Ethnic cleansing can be just chasing people from their homes. And it's not a legal term.
They succeeded in killing 9 million? How did they fail at genocide?
Regardless, you sound pretty silly when you say the slaughter of millions in Asia isn't quite as bad as this other slaughter of millions in Europe. What exactly is the difference?
The numbers differ. Nanking estimates range wildly but the max is like 500 000. That's not even close to 11-12 million.
But this is getting disgusting. Now we are discussing if killing 500 000 is bad enough considering somewhere else even more were killed.
It's more horrifying to die in concentration camps rather than bayoneting women in the vagina, burying people up to their heads in the ground, and then running them over with lawnmowers and vehicles? It's less evil?
The law is different. Things like this always happen in wars. Mass genocide doesn't. It is ordered and organized from the top using a lot of allocated resources.
You make it sound like the Japanese killings of civilians was done as individual acts by deranged soldiers. It wasn't. They were ordered to mass murder civilians by the Japanese chain of command.
What Japan did is arguably genocide. But it's much less clear and vastly different from what Germany did.
There was a war trial in Tokyo. If you read it you can see what was documented and what legal terms were used. The 'Sanko Sakusen' policy was ruled to be a 'crime of genocide'. But of course neither the Germans nur the Japanese got a fair trial. Yeah, they were guilty. But they were punished under double standards.
So Japanese atrocities account to like 6 million at most. These were organized and disorganized, massacres and work camps, bombing, CB weapons and famine.
That's the same as the number of Jewish people killed. And if there were as many Jewish people as there were Chinese during WWII then even more would have been killed. That's the difference between the very unusual genocide of the holocaust and huge massacres. Plus Germany itself has quite some more atrocities, for example in USSR.
On July 12 2009 13:02 BisuBoi wrote: I'm surprised after 50+ years, some people don't know that what the Nazis did wasn't genocide, it was ethnic cleansing. Genocide is when they succeed. What they did was ethnic cleansing. Japan did the same.
WAT WAT WAT ?
"any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life, calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; [and] forcibly transferring children of the group to another group."
edit : oops, just noticed you admitted you are wrong. (by THE definition, so you are wrong)