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There is a new abuse going on with Leoric + Abathur that resembles the abuse Abathur and Azmodan had earlier. The quick rundown is this: You play normally and gather as much globes as possible on Leoric for his Reanimation talent. Once you reach level 16 you just go at their base and start attacking a keep while Abathur hats you. You can do decent burst damage to it using your Q, ultimate and abathur's damage. They will kill you but having stacked all reanimation talents you can bring your deathtimer down by over 40 seconds. You will revive so fast you can keep doing this while the other team has to choose: stop it or surrender any map control. Either way they are doomed because leoric will take down the keeps and core and/or they get every merc/objective. Heck even if you counterpush Leoric can just hearth in ghost form to help defend that. It's not sure the tactic is broken but it's annoyingly hard to stop and most of all stupid.
For information this is the build: http://www.heroesnexus.com/talent-calculator/52-leoric#9O0SgPyS5SQT6S0AA Basically the quick cooldown reduction is a combination of good Reanimation stacks, Ossein renewal and Consume vitality. Some quick and dirty calculations. Suppose normally your death timer is 60 seconds (lvl ~18 or so). In leoric's case that means your 'health' will normally restore over 60 seconds while undying, ie at 100/60 = ~1.66% hp/sec. Now Reanimation gives 4 hp/sec per globe. Typically if you do good globe hunting by switching lanes early on, which is easy with leoric's good clear, you'll get roughly 2 globes per hero level. You can do better on some maps (tomb for example) and won't reach this on others (cursed hollow, eternity). This accounts to ~1% hp/sec from lvl 10 onwards (slightly more if you do well). So Reanimation at late levels improves your HP regen from roughy ~1.7% to ~2.7% already. Now ossein renewal gives 20% hp. Consume vitality gives 10% hp if you swing at a minion wave, often not so hard when in ghost form near their base. Finally having a target for W can even get 25% hp more (although this should only happen if they don't run away). So assuming it's normally 60 secs to revive. You can get 30-60% hp back already from Q-ing a wave 1-2 times, using ossein renewal and havin W on one of their heroes. Then the remaining 40-70% is divided by ~2.7 to give a deathtimer of about ~15-25 seconds instead of 60! The level 4 and 13 talents in this build can be changed and don't matter too much I think. The lvl 4 talent can take off even more of the death timer but it's hard to have minions dying near Leoric's ghost if he is dead in enemy base, perhaps with the abathur you can set up to abuse this even further. But you can also take Hardened bones or Willing vessel, they can keep you a tiny bit longer alive when you're wacking at a keep. Level 13 doesn't really matter much either, Burning rage happens to help do some decent damage to keeps as you hit them but Spell shield can also keep you alive longer if they nuke you on revival.
Overall I think this needs nerfing. Sure it may not be broken at the pro level but it's stupid and it IS hard to stop especially at lower levels. Like azmodan+abathur before 2 mans can ruin casual games with this because you can very easily perform this. Just play a normal game, making sure to gather globes as much on Leoric and don't fall too far behind in xp, for which Abathur is already a beast. Then from level 16 onwards you go taking down keeps. What I saw ZP doing on stream was at 16 to go keeps and then after all of them core but I can imagine this can be tuned even further, perhaps you can just go earlier than 16 as the talent at 16 helps for nice reduction but isn't the biggest part (which are the lvl 1 and 7 really). Also I think you can just go core straight away after getting 1 keep the revive timer is so low that the shield of the core and Mules won't be helping against this. You can just take out Mules and the shield will hardly regenerate before you are up again. These sort of tactics which bypass any 'normal' play should just be removed. The 5 man 'rush the core' tactic of a team of for example abathur/zeratul/falstad/zagara/brightwing you see occasionally is at least fun and can be countered quite well. This tactic is just stupid and is frustating to face, you just see Leoric's ghost and are pretty powerless to stop it. Sure you can nearly instantly kill him on revival if you want but dedicating a couple heroes to that just means the rest of the team has free reign. How to fix this? The problem is a combination of 3 things: being able to Revive next to a keep, the very low death timer and leoric's decent building damage (although a large share comes from abathur). You could do several things to fix it, for example they could make reviving in enemy territory much harder by giving Leoric a sort of warpin time similar to what Protoss units have in sc2. During this time he could be attacked and perhaps even be more vulnerable, nor could he be hatted by abathur. Additionally they can just increase his death timer and/or remove the talents that reduce his timer so much. Finally they could reduce his building damage by making Q only do double damage vs minions/mercs but not buildings. The most elegant solution I think is just a talent rework, take away these talents that reduce his death timer so much. Especially the lvl 1 and lvl 16 ones. Overall I'm confident that first of all this thing will become a problem soon and secondly that it will also be fixed soon. Heck it could even show in a pro match, it isn't hard to just draft leoric+abathur second if neither is banned and it's not like these heroes can't play well before you start this exploiting.
Just try it out, best way to get something fixed is people doing it as much as possible even though that sucks before it actually does get fixed. Hopefully a pro game will feature this quickly so it becomes a glaring problem right away.
You can also see some games with it from ZP (very casual though) over here: http://www.twitch.tv/zp_tv/v/8446133 from 1:30:00 onwards.
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Can't the other team just counterpush and win? Maybe do it in the same lane to kill him when he ups and so he doesn't get the friendly lane minions to help push and regen? Also, map mechanics.
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ah okay that explains alot. I thought it was a super stupid thing to do lol. I was thinking if I should report him for feeding, but I left this to the team he was on to decide. Never had so much hero damage. He had no spell shield though, he would have lifed 3 seconds longer!
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On July 25 2015 21:27 Yoav wrote: Can't the other team just counterpush and win? Maybe do it in the same lane to kill him when he ups and so he doesn't get the friendly lane minions to help push and regen? Also, map mechanics.
The thing is the timer is down so much that that is quite hard. And if you kill him and counterpush there is nothing stopping Leoric from hearthing back in ghost form to help on defense. This would probably be the best way to stop it but note that unless you have some push specific comp it is quite difficult to actually counterpush. Most of all this type of play will be problematic for public games because it's quite easy to execute requiring only a two people working together a bit (and honestly you can do this with a random abathur who knows the idea) and it takes much more dedication to stop. You need to send back the right heroes and amount of them exactly to stop it and coordinate some counterattack to actually kill them before the leoric kills you.
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This is indeed new and very strong. The thing to note here is that its a 2 man combo meaning only 3 members of your team are active in defending or roaming the map.
It would take some time to figure out exactly the best way to deal with this is but the answer is prob global Heroics such as The Hunt or Stage Dive in combination with someone that can take Mule. granted this is going to be awful in quickmatch where its a role of the dice to see if you have the counter but I dont feel this is all that strong in Team League and if you have an intelligent team it would lose out in Hero league as well.
Honestly Zagara with nydus might be enough to slow it down enough for your team to win
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I think the revive time needs to be nerfed hard
This kind of bull shouldn't have to be dealt with
Its enough to deal with the ghost harassing and scout/grant vision then instantly be able to come back into a fight without the ridiculously low death timer
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2 man combo meaning only 3 members of your team are active in defending or roaming the map.
Abathur only has to help while Leoric is alive, so he can still use his hat and ult in fights. It's basically playing between 3-4 vs 5 and Leoric becoming a clock for the enemy team (granting Exp along the way ...). The same way Sgt. Hammer Ult somehow acts, although Sgt. Hammer Ult is waaaay slower
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I think the Leorics better stop, or Abathur might get a symbiote range restriction lol. I have to see that in all its glory before I can say something. Have seen it 2 times today and 1 time with Aba even, but we had 2 specialists both times. But I was warned so I took Battle Momentum/Nydus on Zagara.
I think the Zagara Nydus + Abathur Copy is stronger then this though, since Zagara doesn't die and does way more damage. And still can support the team.
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It looks like you don't even need abathur tbh. The rez timer in the late game is way too low and leoric can just suicide over and over. I've had a 16 death leoric against me (most death in our team : 4) win the game for his team. He just tanks in teamfights a bunch then dies over and over then goes for the backdoor when keeps are open. You should be punished for dying repeatedly, there's clearly a design flaw here.
A quick and dirty solution would be to increase his death timer by several seconds if he dies again in a short period of time, for example you die, then you rez, and if you die again in the next 30 seconds, your rez timer becomes way longer
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The main (unique) mechanic causing the problem is that he can revive anywhere on the map. That whats makes him interesting, but on the other hand causes the described problem. The fact that his 'q' deals additional damage to buildings worsens this.
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Ok after playing a few more games : no question it is overpowered and needs to change. Tbh blizzard does a really poor job with new hero releases, they are way too often overtuned and break hero league since there is no ban.
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they did pretty good jobs every time. But we are their QA, you know doesn't cost money to have paying customers test your stuff. So oversights may happen. Still not seen it do any good ... apart from creating panic which usually is what makes these things good.
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On July 26 2015 23:16 RouaF wrote: Ok after playing a few more games : no question it is overpowered and needs to change. Tbh blizzard does a really poor job with new hero releases, they are way too often overtuned and break hero league since there is no ban.
They do this on purpose a little of course, better to have a slightly too strong hero that a lot of people will buy and play and then tune it down a little afterwards, then have it not be played.
For the rest Leoric looks to be fine, except this strategy he even looks a little weak because he lacks good CC.
But sure new heroes tend to be a bit broken although if this strategy is not broken on the high levels i think he falls more in the butcher/jaina camp of being alright on release but not very strong than the kael/TLV/sylvanas camp.
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I dunno, I recall Azmodan and Thrall being called the most OP things to come out when they were released. Thrall was probably nerfed too early to say for sure, but even pre-nerf the pro-scene had no use for him and we all know where Azmodan sits on tier lists (to be fair, a lot of people pointed out on that Azmodan didn't have the mana to keep up with the op-ness that got others so up in arms). But that's just what happens whenever a new hero comes out, it shakes things up and people have to adjust to new counters and sometimes even new metas, which can make some heroes seem much stronger than they really are.
Btw, people used to think Jaina was totally outclassed on release by the existing ranged-dps trinity of Valla / Falstad / Tychus. You could probably argue that she started gaining popularity due to the nerfs to Tychus and Valla. And of course people looking back will point to the big buffs she got, but amusingly she actually got those *after* she started being ranked as a Tier 1 hero.
Anyways on the topic of Leoric. Is this something that he can pull off an any map? It seems that maps with weaker objectives like Cursed Hallow are were this would shine, while something like Haunted Mines would just be over too fast for him to do this.
Would you say that if the other team got real aggressive pushing a lane / objectives you can force Leoric back to his side of the map enough to counter this strategy?
I actually haven't run into this play yet and would like to know what to expect if/when I do.
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On July 27 2015 15:14 Wuster wrote: I dunno, I recall Azmodan and Thrall being called the most OP things to come out when they were released. Thrall was probably nerfed too early to say for sure, but even pre-nerf the pro-scene had no use for him and we all know where Azmodan sits on tier lists (to be fair, a lot of people pointed out on that Azmodan didn't have the mana to keep up with the op-ness that got others so up in arms). But that's just what happens whenever a new hero comes out, it shakes things up and people have to adjust to new counters and sometimes even new metas, which can make some heroes seem much stronger than they really are.
Btw, people used to think Jaina was totally outclassed on release by the existing ranged-dps trinity of Valla / Falstad / Tychus. You could probably argue that she started gaining popularity due to the nerfs to Tychus and Valla. And of course people looking back will point to the big buffs she got, but amusingly she actually got those *after* she started being ranked as a Tier 1 hero.
Anyways on the topic of Leoric. Is this something that he can pull off an any map? It seems that maps with weaker objectives like Cursed Hallow are were this would shine, while something like Haunted Mines would just be over too fast for him to do this.
Would you say that if the other team got real aggressive pushing a lane / objectives you can force Leoric back to his side of the map enough to counter this strategy?
I actually haven't run into this play yet and would like to know what to expect if/when I do.
Don't recall Azmodan being called OP, just the interaction with Abathur and his ultimate at the time that copied Heroics. Jaina was buffed before she got 'tier 1' status actually.
Best maps for this are maps where you can get globes easily, ie something where you can double lane which Leoric can pretty much at any map but battlefield of eternity or cursed hollow are difficult with the long distance between lanes. Besides that you just want the map to go long so you can start doing this before the game is over.
To battle it you want to either push as 5 to outpush the leoric or force him to go back. Alternatively you just want to send back 2 heroes with good burst that instantly kill him on revival and then immediately go back to action. Most importantly don't linger around giving him a target for his W.
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So a friend and I tried this the other day and... I'd say this isn't going to last long before a change is made. We had a Hero League match where MMR was about 2400-3400 range and four people trying to stop Leoric together from hitting the core. With Abathur hat, the improved Ultimate Evolution talent, and Leoric's quick respawn time, there was nothing they could do. When their entire team was there to stomp Leroic we still knocked 2% off the core and prevented shields from regenerating. Meanwhile the rest of our team was doing objectives with zero resistance.
Obviously the best response is to push completely back, ignore your own core, and finish the game. But much like the Abathur backdoor strat, it requires a level of coordination that most players won't have in a public game. It also may not even be possible if your team mates can defend successfully.
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I think every released hero was called OP, apart from Johanna, which makes all those OP calls even more hilarious. But the main reason every hero is OP on release is because they are always good against something.
Blizzard will probably watch this and see if it stops or continues, because this combo basically forces a retard basetrade. Backdoor Abathur was atleast not forcing the game into a series of unfair fights until the game ends. This one is. Had such a team on my side for once now, but enemy had dive+sylv written all over them. A 1 level advantage wasn't enough to win.
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United States4883 Posts
So I've been playing quite a bit the past week with the Heroes Writers, and we've been looking at different ways of playing Leoric and against him. I've run into this and similar strategies a lot, so I just wanted to put my own experience out there. Disclaimer: these are all quick matches around ~3000-3400 MMR, so it's not super high quality. Also, I apologize for linking dropbox, but hotslogs hates me right now.
We played against a dumber version of the strategy you laid out. Essentially Leoric went straight to one of our forts and began to take it out at lvl 1. This wasn't a huge problem early on and gave us a huge experience lead, so we were fine with him just dying over and over to the fort and just started ignoring him. However, then the ammo ran out and he was able to just hit it for free and we weren't getting experience for killing him. Luckily, I was playing The Lost Vikings, so I just split up 2 of them to follow him around for the rest of the game while our team 4.5 vs 3 all of the other objectives, eventually netting us a crazy 4-5 level lead.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ik5oqw57qzuco7g/Garden of Terror (146).StormReplay?dl=0
This was a more normal game. Leoric played pretty standard in the early and mid parts of the game, but then became an absolute powerhouse in the late game when we were down to one or two forts and still had to secure both shrines for the Dragon. By 30:00, he was literally respawning every 20-30 seconds AT an objective, so his respawn timer was essentially 0. On top his ability to threaten objectives relentlessly, Azmodan's continual pressure on the map just choked us out and killed us in the super scrappy late game.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ak6xypqndoe2ncv/Dragon Shire (143).StormReplay?dl=0
My opinion is not that the Abathur/Leoric combo is an issue, but that Leoric as a whole is an issue. Based on some research, if he has a decent amount of regen globes and has all of his abilities up including Ossein Renewal, he comes back to life on average around 20-30 seconds from Lvl 10 (~6:00-6:30) onwards. This means that in the late game, especially past lvl 16, Leoric's death timer is around 20-30 seconds compared to the 60+ second death timers of other heroes. On top of that, he can spawn right at the objective -- essentially his death is the same time it would take to hearth back to base and walk to the objective. If the game gets past 20:00, it's almost impossible to capitalize on a won team fight because he can almost always threaten objectives, especially if your keeps or core are exposed and/or weak.
They really need to remove the Reanimation talent at Lvl 1 or weaken his entire kit to compensate for having basically no respawn timer in the late game. Ossein Renewal is also not a very interesting talent, especially since it is the clear pick in that talent category, and would probably do better at lvl 13 or 16 instead (or removed). In general, the idea that Leoric can do things to make himself revive SIGNIFICANTLY sooner than he should have to wait is just ridiculous; the fact that he doesn't even need to walk to an objective from base when he respawns is enough of a unique strength.
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The whole concept of Leoric is not nice to play against, nor with imho. Dumb game design.
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Of all the on/after death traits, Leoric's is the only one that isn't utter garbage like Tyrael's or to a slightly lesser extent Uther's. Doesn´t mean I really like it but it does suit the character.
However, in the few matches I've seen him, his respawn timer is massively reduced AND as mentioned, he can respawn where he chooses, such as on an objective.
Maybe they should add a Murky like Egg functionality to his trait. Rather than being able to freely respawn where he wants, he has to put down a beacon (in his case maybe an unholy cross or something) and that's where he gets to respawn. It would be destructable though a bit tougher than Murky's Egg. If it is destroyed, he will respawn at base when his death timer runs out. Obviously he can only plant the beacon while alive.
That way, if Leoric throws down his respawn beacon on an objective, he risks it getting destroyed. He could still plant it in a bush but it would still be vulnerable and the enemy team would have to check for it.
The other option would be to just not give him a on/after death trait and replacing it with something else. Maybe something with skeletons, since he is The Skeleton King after all.
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