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OK--- sometimes I get into games and they seem impossible. I hate blaming team-comp on my losses, though, so I thought I'd post here to get some advice.
The map was cursed hollow, and the QM comps were thus:
Uther <---this is me Valla Zeratul Sgt Hammer Sylvanas
Enemy team:
Sonya Muradin Zagara Tyrande Thrall
I'd like two different types of responses in terms of advice:
1) As you are going into this match as Uther, what kinds of skills should I be looking at? 2) Given that this is relatively low mmr (team average 1940-1960 for each team) and solo Q, AND assuming my team is responsive---- what kind of strategy could I propose in the first 30 seconds? My standard "soak lane, try to group up before objectives" didn't work at all, as we lost every single team fight hard. (Or should we have been winning team fights? It seemed really tough.)
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In an attempt to help out with #2: If your team has a Hammer on a huge map like CH, she needs to make sure she can get to the objectives in time- early, actually- to siege up in an ideal position. Tell Hammer to stay in mid lane on CH so that she can get to any objective (be it top or bottom sides) in a reasonable amount of time, since her Z should generally be used for escape- not for running towards a possible gank.
Did they just CC the hell out of you? Even though you had a better healer on your team, their comp could have very well stunned and trapped you guys. Also, do you have the stats screen? It'd be useful to know how many times your squishy allies died. You didn't have a tanky warrior at all, which could have been a big deal.
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#1: https://www.heroesfire.com/hots/talent-calculator/uther#hfKZ never really need to deviate from this build. if there's really no good shrink ray target blessed champion might be nice but sonya/thrall are both good targets here. #2 - valla and zera solo and uther hammer sylv should push as a trilane. give up first two tribs because your early game sucks and try to get ahead from killing towers then fight for 3rd trib, pref with at least a level lead or a talent lead but people probably get caught randomly.
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On July 30 2015 11:39 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: In an attempt to help out with #2: If your team has a Hammer on a huge map like CH, she needs to make sure she can get to the objectives in time- early, actually- to siege up in an ideal position. Tell Hammer to stay in mid lane on CH so that she can get to any objective (be it top or bottom sides) in a reasonable amount of time, since her Z should generally be used for escape- not for running towards a possible gank.
Did they just CC the hell out of you? Even though you had a better healer on your team, their comp could have very well stunned and trapped you guys. Also, do you have the stats screen? It'd be useful to know how many times your squishy allies died. You didn't have a tanky warrior at all, which could have been a big deal.
That makes sense. It looks like hammer took south lane and I made the mistake of teaming up with valla against zagara on top. I should have gone to south to support hammer in her muradin/sonya fight at the very least, and though it probably would have been more ideal to ask for a lane switchup. I was unaware of her troubles on south due to my own tunnel vision on top, and she died twice before the first tribute even came up.
As far as the engages go--- it looks like every team fight save one would feature us not focusing one of their team down, and them cc'ing while rotating themselves. I doubt it was coordination on their part, though--- frequently teams rotate non-damaged enemies into fights just because when players get damaged they instinctively pull out a bit.
I don't have access to a screenshot of the stats screen(my laptop is somewhat new and doesn't seem to have a print screen button?), but it looks like hammer and I died the most--- 7 and 8 deaths, respectively. The rest of the team died 5/6 times each. Several of my deaths were due to my going after teammates who had overextended--- I would end up saving them with a divine shield but killing myself in the process. I'm still working on when to chase a teammate and try to save them and when to just say goodbye to the poor soul who is hopelessly doomed.
On July 30 2015 12:04 KawaiiRice wrote:#1: https://www.heroesfire.com/hots/talent-calculator/uther#hfKZ never really need to deviate from this build. if there's really no good shrink ray target blessed champion might be nice but sonya/thrall are both good targets here. #2 - valla and zera solo and uther hammer sylv should push as a trilane. give up first two tribs because your early game sucks and try to get ahead from killing towers then fight for 3rd trib, pref with at least a level lead or a talent lead but people probably get caught randomly.
That is basically what I do almost every game with two exceptions. If I happen to be facing a team with no real cc, I'll swap out cleanse (I think this has happened twice-- one time I got the area burn effect just to deal with zagara creep, and that worked out really well.). The second exception is that I usually get divine shield, but sometimes if I am the only cc on the team, there is another support, or we have no one who will get focused I'll get the area stun ult. I'm still kind of debating in my mind when exactly the other ult is worth it--- divine shield is good, but I have this notion in my mind that the triple stun///whole-team disruption option is really good.
I also deviate from redemption sometimes--- usually if I think I won't get a chance to use it either because we can win in a hurry or because we'll lose unless I can get better use-age out of my ult in a core defense teamfight.
The valla/zera solo & trilane push thing is interesting.
,,,
Reviewing this game's replay was really illuminating. During the actual playthrough I felt like we were behind all game and was very discouraged. However, around minute 18 we were actually ahead in some ways--- the XP was only a half level behind and we had destroyed one of the enemies' keeps thanks to sylvanas being consistant in taking siege camps before objectives and having the top lane pushed out. So, we were losing team fights hard (final kill count was 31 to 10), but we were effectively split pushing to the point of almost doing damage to their core.
* Maybe we should have had sylv on bottom lane instead of top lane? We did cap our boss once during the game, and if that lane had actually been pushed at the time we could have done much more damage. * Clearly my teammates were having issues with overextending, yet I never actually communicated that we should stick closer together. * For almost every objective, we had one dead teammate at the start of it (b/c of overextending). The first person to get there always seemed to try and cap the objective instead of waiting for the team and would get ganked. Then the rest of the team would charge into a losing battle, get killed. I could have done better at trying to ask people to wait for the team---- though I get really tired of retyping these kinds of requests game after game.
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You had no tank, the other team had two, and Hammer is pretty bad except on a select few maps/situations :/
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On July 30 2015 09:52 MotherFox wrote: OK--- sometimes I get into games and they seem impossible. I hate blaming team-comp on my losses, though, so I thought I'd post here to get some advice.
The map was cursed hollow, and the QM comps were thus:
Uther <---this is mea Valla Zeratul Sgt Hammer Sylvanas
Enemy team:
Sonya Muradin Zagara Tyrande Thrall
I'd like two different types of responses in terms of advice:
1) As you are going into this match as Uther, what kinds of skills should I be looking at? 2) Given that this is relatively low mmr (team average 1940-1960 for each team) and solo Q, AND assuming my team is responsive---- what kind of strategy could I propose in the first 30 seconds? My standard "soak lane, try to group up before objectives" didn't work at all, as we lost every single team fight hard. (Or should we have been winning team fights? It seemed really tough.)
These are notes that are basically for you as someone who isn't going to be able to coordinate builds or strategy because you're playing with randoms and they may not take the advice. If things were different and you were coordinated, I'd say make sure you build around Sgt Hammer as an assassin and make sure they pick the siege-while-moving talent. Then, your team can put a lot of dmg pressure on anyone nearbly while hanging out with the slowly moving Sgt Hammer DPS totem.
Typically in four assassin teams your advantage is going to come from being able to take good angles going into teamfights. You don't get that here because of Sgt. Hammer's immobility.
Maximizing your sustain and healing and picking divine shield is going to be the best strategy because you'll be able to buy the extra seconds of DPS your team needs. Make sure good (squishy and no escapes) targets are called and pinged on during the fight.
Soak all of the lanes and by levels 8-11 group up more and pick up merc camps, try for the objective if you are all together. If that works, keep doing that. Otherwise, try to focus your team on doing siege damage because you have the kind of damage that can go in and out after killing the wall/towers or forts. As uther I'd stick with whichever assassin was playing the least suicidally yet with bravery.
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Trilane bot or top with hammer/uther/zeratul. If the tribute spawns close compete for it, otherwise let it slide. Alternatively roam with Zeratul as Uther while the other 3 do their lane. Uther is typically best as part of roaming or a trilane, sololane he can soak safely if needed but his manausage is terribly inefficient to prevent it being pushed in.
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On July 30 2015 09:52 MotherFox wrote: OK--- sometimes I get into games and they seem impossible. I hate blaming team-comp on my losses, though, so I thought I'd post here to get some advice.
The map was cursed hollow, and the QM comps were thus:
Uther <---this is me Valla Zeratul Sgt Hammer Sylvanas
Enemy team:
Sonya Muradin Zagara Tyrande Thrall
I'd like two different types of responses in terms of advice:
1) As you are going into this match as Uther, what kinds of skills should I be looking at? 2) Given that this is relatively low mmr (team average 1940-1960 for each team) and solo Q, AND assuming my team is responsive---- what kind of strategy could I propose in the first 30 seconds? My standard "soak lane, try to group up before objectives" didn't work at all, as we lost every single team fight hard. (Or should we have been winning team fights? It seemed really tough.)
You're kinda asking the wrong questions here i feel, as uther nearly always go conjurer/PShield/Cleanse/DS/Shrink/Benediction/Redemption. Obviously you can change some of them if they don't fit your fight, but if i was the one playing uther that game i would have gone that route without a doubt.
Now the question you really should have been asking yourself is "when i go into a match as Uther, what should my mindset be?". This really fits your 2nd question, but more so because Uther is one of the worst supports healing-wise and he's only decent as a solo support when you have another stun to follow up on yours. With your team, you're the only one with hard-CC and that stun is simply not enough to pick big fights. You wanna stick to small skirmishes with Zeratul, but that can also prove to be difficult, since Sgt. Hammer shouldn't be solo laning.
If i had played that game as Uther, i'd have told my team that our only way to win was through snowballing, giving info to most likely give up the first two tributes unless we win super early. Lanes would be 1-1-2 with zeratul roaming to help your solo lanes. You and hammer versus their tri-lane is the most ideal, you won't gain much from trying to out-siege another lane since you got no back-up other than Zeratul.
It is really difficult though to ever win a game like that. They have 2 warriors who both sustain well on their own, so even with a Tyrande-solo support they can easily smash through your line-up since you're all very squishy.
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So storm shield to keep my dps in just a tad bit longer was the wrong way to go at lvl 20? I don't think it made a difference, but I believe that's the only variation I made in this specific game.
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Storm shield is good when you run double support, but redemption is really the go-to talent at the moment. You revive with enough mana to help the last remaining members of the team fight.
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How do people feel about block with Uther? I've used it in similar situations where my team has no tank and I'll be the foremost hero as uther.
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Block has its uses i guess (fk nova), but i wonder how you would manage your mana in prolonged team-fights aside from suiciding post-20. Even on shitty globe-gathering maps i go for conjurer, you never know how long the game will be.
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I would have gone for a tank build on Uther, but I guess playing with what you are comfortable with is as good. Not everyone is comfortable with tank, run out of mana, die, heal your team. Aside from that you could have tried to be early to the objective and try to prevent others from dieing.
But you shouldn't try to analyze this game to much. It was with Hammer on Cursed, having 5 people that know how to handle this situation is rare since Kael replaced Hammer. The composition favored the other team heavily unless you go for Graduating Range on 16. And judging from what you said Sylvanas and Hammer did, they didn't know enough about their characters to make them work in this Situation. Especially Hammer needs alot of coordination on this map.
I would imagine Valla and Hammer both didn't take Giant Slayer, as well. And people react really upset if you suggest talent choices within a match.
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Yea I consider it if it's an AA heavy comp (Valla AA build, nova, thrall, etc.) and I don't have a good tank with me.
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Thanks for the tips all! Had a somewhat similar feeling comp today on garden of terror
Uther Illidan Zagara Sylvanas Valla
vs
Sonya Zagara Butcher Tyrande Abathur
I suggested that Syl/Zagara/myself push hard in the beginning and was rewarded with two towers and several kills because of it. Then as the game went on I kept careful watch on which heroes were being more suicidal, and actively pinged to keep them closer--- but did not chase to save them when it was half a map away. We ended up winning. It wasn't a landslide, but I did feel that our team's communication was much better than my team yesterday and we were in command of the strategic space of the game the whole time.
I was surprised to find all the advice here so helpful almost immediately, but it made me glad that I asked! *edit(though I am aware that swapped muradin for abathur on the opposing team effectively is why the early game was so much easier my team)
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