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After getting Tyrael since his cost reduction and having a lot of fun with him (Judgment and Holy Ground are so much fun) the one thing he is really missing is a useful trait.
Unlike Leoric, his on-death trait is pointless in 99% of the cases. You'll rarely if ever get a kill or finish something off with it. It also just doesn't feel like a good trait for his type of play.
Given that Tyrael is often right in the thick of it and being disruptive, a trait aimed at working in tandem with that seems like a better choice.
Angelic Faith When Tyrael deals or suffers X amount of total damage, he gains a stack of a Angelic Faith. Angelic Faith stacks can be consumed to improve one cast of a basic ability. Maximum of 3 stacks. Stacks are lost upon death.
The amount of damage needed is equal to five auto-attacks worth of damage regardless of level.
The stacks improve mostly the disruptive/crowd control portion of his abilties.
El'druin's Might (Q) Each stack of Angelic Faith increases the slow amount by 5% (additive, so 25% + 5% per stack), slow duration and the range of casting by 10%.
Righteousness (W) Each stack of Angelic Faith increases the shield amount and duration by 20%.
Smite (E) Each stack of Angelic Faith increase the area size by 10%, the speed boost by 2.5% (additive, so 25% + 2.5% per stack) and the speed boost duration by 10%.
Talents At level 1, his trait talent reduces the amount of damage needed for a stack to four auto-attacks.
At level 4, his trait talent increases the maximum amount of Angelic Faith stacks to 4.
With this trait both dealing damage and taking some become more useful and the player will have to choose what he/she wants to use the stacks on. A more powerful El'druin to slow more from further away, or a stronger Smite to chase or run away?
Maybe five/four auto-attacks is too low but the numbers can of course be changed.
Thoughts?
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United States4882 Posts
I think it's a little bit too complicated for Blizzard's standards, at least thus far. Frostwolf Resilience is definitely the most complicated trait in the game, but it's pretty easy for players to understand: when I use spells, I get health! This, on the other hand, is a little more confusing to a newer player who notices that sometimes his abilities randomly do more damage or slow or whatever. Plus, even for seasoned players, it may not be optimal trying to keep track of such a system.
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I generally think that after death spells are pretty bad design wise, but Tyrael's trait really isn't that bad and you can see it dealing a lot of damage in some games(we pick Tyrael in team league quite often and there, and even in some pro games, you can see that it can be fight-changer if Tyrael dies among first heroes in the middle of the fight) and it doesn't really need to kill heroes for it to be fight-changer. I wouldn't mind if they decide to change his trait but then again I wouldn't really mind if it stays this way.
In my opinion his talents need changes and that is far more important than his trait, since he has barely any options when choosing talents.
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I like Tyrael's trait. It allows you to peel someone even after you've died. It's basically Uther but with damage instead of heal.
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Given that Tyrael is often right in the thick of it and being disruptive, a trait aimed at working in tandem with that seems like a better choice.
But... that's exactly why I like Tyrael's trait... That's what it does >.> It's absolutely disruptive, as it causes the opponents to scatter.
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It is Tyraels final zoning tool. Well thats not really correct as he can set down 1 Holy Ground after death. So his trait is really good for a tank that has so much zoning tools. Remember people are taking talents that help Leorics trait, otherwise it would be not that powerful either. If you take Tyraels level 4 talent, Tyrael can speed up allies one more time and set down 1 holy ground and basically has an undodgeable explosion.
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On October 10 2015 08:15 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +Given that Tyrael is often right in the thick of it and being disruptive, a trait aimed at working in tandem with that seems like a better choice. But... that's exactly why I like Tyrael's trait... That's what it does >.> It's absolutely disruptive, as it causes the opponents to scatter.
Whilst true, it still requires Tyrael to die which just feels off to me. The only heroes that can really effectively suicide in my book are Murky and Leoric due to their reduced respawn times. Most of the time when you die its either in the lane from a gank, or in a teamfight that went bad.
In both cases the explosion won't really make that much of a dent since the enemy heroes will likely still have decent health remaining. It might indeed force them to evade Tyrael for a few seconds but I'd rather have a trait that could be used through the game actively then something that only actives on death.
In a equal teamfight it would have some use I agree, but that's somewhat of a niche. When you're winning a teamfight you generally shouldn't die so the trait doesn't come into play.
With Leoric in the early game or Johanna with Indestructible, they're heroes you sometimes don't even want to attack but I've never had that with Tyrael or fearing his explosion. The enemy team still just gets to kill him and deny his team a hero.
I haven't considered the level 4 talent though (I always take Amplified Healing as I considered staying alive better than improving a death trait) so I suppose combining the trait with Holy Ground could work but again, Tyrael still has to die to use it.
Maybe I'm overestimating the value of keeping a hero alive for your team, but is it then considered standard play to suicide Tyrael into something?
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No you don't, keeping heroes alive is important and you shouldn't kill Tyrael on purpose. Just as you don't kill Uther on purpose. But if they do they still have an impact in the fight. So they are the least tragic heroes to die.
And Amp healing is pretty good and so are the other level 4s. But if you know you take Holy Ground and if you know the enemy can burst you down easily and your healer won't be able to pay to much attention to you. Then it becomes a real option. Especially if the enemy has a ranged squishy's.
Otherwise, just remember Tyrael was created when Diablos trait was still a mass talent without the Soul collecting part. So if Tyrael ever falls of, they will probably already have buffs ready for his trait. For example reduced death timer if enemy heroes die.
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The Hardest part of playing a warrior, is being 'in the opponents face' but never to overextend. Many a fights have been won by etc. the opponents leoric charging in, our team pulling back just slightly, leoric continues and then we take him out before the real fight even begins.
Tyrael on the other hand, can get to any place he wants and be disruptive. And if a fight is brewing, it often isn't a very good idea to focus him down early. You really shouldn't underestimate this talent, especially if you run a dual warrior setup.
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141 Posts
I'd say just give him the lvl 4 Even in Death talent by default.
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I think the trait is fine, but could be a little more/better talented
Examples: -Manual detonation -0.5 sec Stun -More targets hit means more damage, mabye 10% per target? meaning if he hits 3 targets, damage is at 130% - 10% reduced death timer per target hit
something along does lines, cause as someone stated above, i'm not scared at all from this (Maybe with jaina or Kael, but that's it). These talents would make it so much scarier
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On October 11 2015 06:27 r_gg wrote: I'd say just give him the lvl 4 Even in Death talent by default. I'd rather give him the lvl 1 talent Protection in Death by default; giving this talent would make him too similar to Leoric, but giving allies shields while damaging the enemy is what Tyrael does in life, so it has a nice parallelism with his trait.
About the base trait - I certainly agree that it's one of the worst traits in the game, but it's not 100% worthless. I've definitely gotten a couple kills with it, and if you can hit 2 or more enemies then your teammates have an easier followup. Occasionally, if you are the first to die, you chunk down enough of the enemy hp that they are forced to withdraw instead of pushing their advantage, which is nice.
If Blizzard doesn't agree with baking in one of the talents, my suggestion would be to lower the damage a bit and give Tyrael a movement speed boost while dead so he can actually hit the enemy more consistently. It's bad enough that the majority of heroes can just blink or iceblock out of it no sweat, but most of the time all they need to do is walk away while you chase them helplessly, which is beyond frustrating.
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On October 10 2015 06:33 Ramiz1989 wrote: I generally think that after death spells are pretty bad design wise, but Tyrael's trait really isn't that bad and you can see it dealing a lot of damage in some games(we pick Tyrael in team league quite often and there, and even in some pro games, you can see that it can be fight-changer if Tyrael dies among first heroes in the middle of the fight) and it doesn't really need to kill heroes for it to be fight-changer. I wouldn't mind if they decide to change his trait but then again I wouldn't really mind if it stays this way.
In my opinion his talents need changes and that is far more important than his trait, since he has barely any options when choosing talents.
Before OGN finals I would have agreed with OP re: Tyrael's trait.
But seeing how SC used Tyrael to jump all over the place and used the trait to finish of people and forced MVP Black to scatter? The trait has real applications. The key of course is that SC was able to stick around long enough for the fight to drag out, which meant healers were low on mana and heroes were not topped off. Suddenly, exploding Tyrael is an actual threat and forces people out of position, especially when he ends up dying literally in the middle of the enemy team!
One thing I'm conflicted on is the trait being bad for newbies that just suicide/feed. I like abilities that are better in the hands of good players, but I don't know if it's a good thing to have a trait that's just useless for bad players.
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If you focus a ranged dps/mage the trait alone take away 1/3 of their health or force their cannon glasses to not do any damage for the next 2~5 seconds... that's HUGE for a trait.
But if you want to get kills, tank damage, or your team is running away after you die, then its very likely you are playing Tyrael wrong.
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People just seem to have a dislike for 'on death' traits with suggestions to 'fix' uther's and tyrael's trait popping up from time to time. Both are just fine I think. It feels counterproductive but the trait wins quite some fights, or actually prevents players from killing tyrael in the first place. I don't see a need to fix it. And good players do use the trait actively instead of just getting a tiny bonus on an accidental death. Going deep for a kill dying in the process or killing off a keep are fairly common uses of it. Or turning around and sacrificing but saving others.
The talents related to it should probably be fixed because they are just crap. But I could list 100 talents in this game that are just awful, they need to be tweaked at some point but it's not a high priority I think. General hero balance is more important, talent diversity is slowly getting better.
If any trait needs a fix it's Diablo's trait imo. It feels silly as often just waiting out the timer and keeping the stacks is better than having to wait so long, if you had that option.
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