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On July 17 2016 06:13 NonY wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2016 19:52 LongShot27 wrote: Players really hate to admit it but you really can get carried up to the high ranks as a shitty player and be stuck in hell as a good player. But that's the discussion isn't it? Are people bad at self-reporting? Are they bad at recognizing what skills and behaviors actually affect win/loss the most? I don't think the truth is so obvious. I don't think that being unable to face the truth is the only thing keeping the discussion going. In fact when I think of "can't face the truth", it lands me on the other side of the argument: people aren't willing to face the truth that the game is good at ranking you and you really are where you belong.
There is a limit either way, though. There are games that can be won purely through splitpush, for example. Not every game, but enough. I saw a duo that played Azmodan and Johanna every single game they could get them both - and saw them rack up 11 straight wins. It's like 4gating every game in SC2, or like that guy that cannon rushed to Grandmaster. It won't work every game, but it will work enough to rank up, effectively 'tricking' the system.
But I agree with you, especially this:
On July 17 2016 06:13 NonY wrote: I'm intrigued by MMR hell and want to know the cases where someone really does get stuck where it seems they don't belong. But I think the vast majority of MMR hell cases come down to a misconception about what player behaviors and skills actually get more wins.
I think at every level there are 'fatal flaws' that players suffer from - whether it's low level stuff like poor engagements/decision making, or higher level stuff like counting heroic cooldowns. And I think that as players get more experienced/better, these flaws can become more deeply rooted - thinking that the way they play, the drafts they play best in, are the overall best way for the game to be played, for example. The better you are, the harder it is to admit you might be wrong - which is why you see the issues in overconfidence from players in the 2800-3000 MMR range. They're better than the majority they play with, since the 3500-4000 players will rarely be in the same game as them, and so they never really get a chance to learn differently.
Part of this comes from where one learns/improves past a certain point. When they're at the top of Diamond, where I am, the system is pretty effective at ensuring a 50% win rate - I've not moved division in a good couple of weeks, unable to win or lose enough either way. I oddly often am captain even when Masters players are present, meaning I have a higher MMR, but either way, there isn't much means for us to learn in game - we've peaked, or so it would seem. I know there is a lot more to learn and improve on from watching pro players/Grubby stream, and from watching tournaments - but not everyone does this. The room for improvement solely in game is very limited once you're at the top of the Bronze-Diamond ladder.
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On July 17 2016 06:13 NonY wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2016 19:52 LongShot27 wrote: Players really hate to admit it but you really can get carried up to the high ranks as a shitty player and be stuck in hell as a good player. But that's the discussion isn't it? Are people bad at self-reporting? Are they bad at recognizing what skills and behaviors actually affect win/loss the most? I don't think the truth is so obvious. I don't think that being unable to face the truth is the only thing keeping the discussion going. In fact when I think of "can't face the truth", it lands me on the other side of the argument: people aren't willing to face the truth that the game is good at ranking you and you really are where you belong. Aside from people not knowing what kind of things they'll personally have to do in a game to make it a win that another player wouldn't do and would therefore allow it to be a loss, or not knowing what kind of things they did that made it a loss (a subtle throw like taking the wrong talent or doing the wrong thing in team fights), people aren't good at reporting how good they actually are on average. They don't count games where they have an excuse. They don't count games where they were "forced" to play a hero they're bad at. They think of their true skill level as their skill level when they're playing well and their team does drafts that they understand how to play in and when they're on the maps they understand how to play. All the other situations where they do poorly they think are exceptional, but the system doesn't care and it ranks it all. So there's a disconnect there between self-image and reality. The draft thing is really interesting to me because even at GM there are drafts that aren't too hard to understand where people will play as if they're in a completely different game. Some players clearly don't understand how to play a gank comp vs a push comp, how to know when they're the team that should be diving or the team that should be peeling and kiting, etc. Even when you know what you're supposed to be doing, you just might not be very experienced with it and not play it well. But the newb who just doesn't understand how to play his team comp is 10000% blaming the loss on his team's "dumb draft". Or the newb who knows how to play a hero only one (popular) way who doesn't make any adjustment for an unusual situation, and then thinks his teammates are idiots for advising him to take the unpopular talent, etc. 10000% gonna say his teammates were idiots who didn't understand his hero when in reality it's him not understanding the draft. The rub for me is that people who are stuck and think they're in MMR hell HAVE to be ignorant of something. They think they're doing what it takes to be recognized as a higher skill level but they're not. Every one of these players has knowledge about the game that they're really confident in that is just plain wrong. And they have no idea. Some of the things I've heard 2800-3000 MMR players with such confidence makes me roll my eyes so hard. I'm sure it only gets wackier as you go lower. Anyway, my point is, how are any of these players trustworthy sources? Some outside person has to evaluate them. I feel like the conversation has to start with someone in a position like this: GM player who has coached a bunch of players up a few leagues examines a bunch of games of a "stuck" player and judges whether they belong there or not. The player just reporting for himself is such a weak place to start. I think the GM player will identify the "fatal flaw" of each supposed victim of MMR hell. I'm intrigued by MMR hell and want to know the cases where someone really does get stuck where it seems they don't belong. But I think the vast majority of MMR hell cases come down to a misconception about what player behaviors and skills actually get more wins.
This may be the most useless post I've ever read
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On July 17 2016 06:30 Larkin wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2016 06:13 NonY wrote:On July 16 2016 19:52 LongShot27 wrote: Players really hate to admit it but you really can get carried up to the high ranks as a shitty player and be stuck in hell as a good player. But that's the discussion isn't it? Are people bad at self-reporting? Are they bad at recognizing what skills and behaviors actually affect win/loss the most? I don't think the truth is so obvious. I don't think that being unable to face the truth is the only thing keeping the discussion going. In fact when I think of "can't face the truth", it lands me on the other side of the argument: people aren't willing to face the truth that the game is good at ranking you and you really are where you belong. There is a limit either way, though. There are games that can be won purely through splitpush, for example. Not every game, but enough. I saw a duo that played Azmodan and Johanna every single game they could get them both - and saw them rack up 11 straight wins. It's like 4gating every game in SC2, or like that guy that cannon rushed to Grandmaster. It won't work every game, but it will work enough to rank up, effectively 'tricking' the system. That is pretty interesting. I didn't think about that kind of "cheesing" as a way to achieve a rank you don't deserve in a way. But I'm pretty pure in my devotion to the idea that every win is a deserved win (putting aside getting carried in a team game). After all, if the best player in the world played only one style, would we not respect his #1 status? Maybe succeeding like that is even more impressive? Whenever there are players getting ahead a certain way, like "patch zergs" in SC2 or cheesy protoss or whatever, other players have the option to copy them to try to emulate their success. But they choose not to because they're not sure they actually can copy or they think they can find their own better path to success. If they're wrong and fail, then the cheesers deserve credit either for judging the best path to success or for being the only ones able to execute that style. A johanna/azmodan duo deserves credit for figuring out a successful strat. Everyone knows some combos like that but which one actually wins the most and can be done most consistently? The people choosing the right one and actually doing it and succeeding deserve credit.
...There isn't much means for us to learn in game - we've peaked, or so it would seem. I know there is a lot more to learn and improve on from watching pro players/Grubby stream, and from watching tournaments - but not everyone does this. The room for improvement solely in game is very limited once you're at the top of the Bronze-Diamond ladder.
Disagree pretty strongly here. I mean if you're stuck you're stuck. You got all the low-hanging fruit for however tall you are and now you gotta learn how to jump higher or climb the tree. More literally for Heroes, you stay humble and keep reevaluating everything you think you know. And there are always people better than you to copy, whether they're on your team or the enemy team. Whenever someone better than you does something that you wouldn't have done, it's something to seriously consider. Also, whenever someone does something differently (whether you think they're better than you or not) and it works out better than you would have guessed, it's something to seriously consider. And finally, no one is a master of all heroes, so there are always more heroes to master. And the more you master, the better you can get at making the absolute perfect pick in drafts. Something like picking Li Li as second support is not even in someone's repertoire, not even crossing their mind when their team already has a strong solo support, but it has gotten me some free wins.
Not everyone can get endlessly better, of course, but I do think the data is there to observe and analyze from your own games. Personally a number of my losses I played to the best of my current ability and knew I needed more experience in that situation to make better judgments.
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On July 17 2016 08:36 NonY wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2016 06:30 Larkin wrote:On July 17 2016 06:13 NonY wrote:On July 16 2016 19:52 LongShot27 wrote: Players really hate to admit it but you really can get carried up to the high ranks as a shitty player and be stuck in hell as a good player. But that's the discussion isn't it? Are people bad at self-reporting? Are they bad at recognizing what skills and behaviors actually affect win/loss the most? I don't think the truth is so obvious. I don't think that being unable to face the truth is the only thing keeping the discussion going. In fact when I think of "can't face the truth", it lands me on the other side of the argument: people aren't willing to face the truth that the game is good at ranking you and you really are where you belong. There is a limit either way, though. There are games that can be won purely through splitpush, for example. Not every game, but enough. I saw a duo that played Azmodan and Johanna every single game they could get them both - and saw them rack up 11 straight wins. It's like 4gating every game in SC2, or like that guy that cannon rushed to Grandmaster. It won't work every game, but it will work enough to rank up, effectively 'tricking' the system. That is pretty interesting. I didn't think about that kind of "cheesing" as a way to achieve a rank you don't deserve in a way. But I'm pretty pure in my devotion to the idea that every win is a deserved win (putting aside getting carried in a team game). After all, if the best player in the world played only one style, would we not respect his #1 status? Maybe succeeding like that is even more impressive? Whenever there are players getting ahead a certain way, like "patch zergs" in SC2 or cheesy protoss or whatever, other players have the option to copy them to try to emulate their success. But they choose not to because they're not sure they actually can copy or they think they can find their own better path to success. If they're wrong and fail, then the cheesers deserve credit either for judging the best path to success or for being the only ones able to execute that style. A johanna/azmodan duo deserves credit for figuring out a successful strat. Everyone knows some combos like that but which one actually wins the most and can be done most consistently? The people choosing the right one and actually doing it and succeeding deserve credit.
Oh I'm not saying they don't deserve wins or deserve to be where they are - the people they play against have just as much duty to show their skill by being able to counter it, even if it is a 'cheese'. But it is, of course, hard to assess #1 or whatever for players in this game. Someone who was indisputably the best player on 3 heroes would be worse in my opinion than someone who is indisputably the third best player on 20 heroes. People have said as much in this thread - what if I wasn't able to play an easy carry hero like Zagara in so many of these games? It definitely would have taken me a lot longer. Would it be down to my lack of skill in being unable to carry as well with other heroes? Partially, but also partially down to the way the game works, and the luck of the system putting me near the bottom of the pick order/giving me players that don't pick/ban her themselves.
And having said that, it's pretty impossible to say things without dispute in this game since no talent choice, no playstyle, no anything, really, can be objectively better in all cases. My point was simply that the system can't be perfect in placing everyone - it is currently running the tradeoff of trying to please the most amount of people it can, which I suppose is enough.
On July 17 2016 08:36 NonY wrote:Show nested quote +...There isn't much means for us to learn in game - we've peaked, or so it would seem. I know there is a lot more to learn and improve on from watching pro players/Grubby stream, and from watching tournaments - but not everyone does this. The room for improvement solely in game is very limited once you're at the top of the Bronze-Diamond ladder.
Disagree pretty strongly here. I mean if you're stuck you're stuck. You got all the low-hanging fruit for however tall you are and now you gotta learn how to jump higher or climb the tree. More literally for Heroes, you stay humble and keep reevaluating everything you think you know. And there are always people better than you to copy, whether they're on your team or the enemy team. Whenever someone better than you does something that you wouldn't have done, it's something to seriously consider. Also, whenever someone does something differently (whether you think they're better than you or not) and it works out better than you would have guessed, it's something to seriously consider. And finally, no one is a master of all heroes, so there are always more heroes to master. And the more you master, the better you can get at making the absolute perfect pick in drafts. Something like picking Li Li as second support is not even in someone's repertoire, not even crossing their mind when their team already has a strong solo support, but it has gotten me some free wins. Not everyone can get endlessly better, of course, but I do think the data is there to observe and analyze from your own games. Personally a number of my losses I played to the best of my current ability and knew I needed more experience in that situation to make better judgments.
Let me rephrase. If you're stuck, you're stuck, absolutely. But the... wiggle room, for want of a better word, that people see themselves improving into, gets significantly shorter the higher up the ladder you go. Most Dia1 players will admit their play is not perfect - but they will be less willing to undergo a complete revamp of the way they see and play the game than a Plat3 player, for instance.
The data is there to analyse and improve on, but the number of players at the 'top of the pubs' level - the large band below the ladder hero, amateur, semi-pro and pro level players in masters/GM - that are willing to look objectively at their gameplay alone and learn from others above them is very, very small. The vast majority will pick up on a few mistakes here and there, but not see much beyond that - because they think their game knowledge/skill is close to the top as it is. Maybe I am being too harsh/cynical on the people around my level, but Dunning-Kruger is really king there.
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I basically stopped playing heroes for similar reasons that are discussed here. Before the reset i hovered around 1k MMR in HL and it was impossible to do anything in like half of the games. What are you supposed to do when literally 50% of the games are lost at about 7 min mark since the enemy team has something like Diablo, Tyrande and Nova/Zeratul and your team cannot understand what "play it safe, they are gonna roam" means and the enemy team is 2-3 levels ahead at that point? Or when your team doesn't understand (not to even talk about using) danger/retreat pings.Or when your team - without paying attention to any pings / messages suicides endlessly 1/2v5 into enemy team and then blame the rest of the team for "not being there" (when it is impossible to be there at that time from a lane when for example an objective spawns).
I mean, i don't claim to be good at the game, i have absolutely no idea where i "should be" or if i should be where i am (was), but what i do know that when i played team league, my MMR was 2x higher, and while playing with ppl around 2,5k-3k (in TL) i wasn't carried and almost never made anything that anyone considers a "critical mistake".
People at low levels 90% of the time just don't listen, and it is almost always impossible to tell them how to improve or what to do better in the current game. Maybe it works better on higher MMR games, but how could i know about that (or why would that affect me).
I actually wonder how it is possible that (even in team league -- where everyone from my party had played more games than i have), based on hotslogs i almost always gained the lowest number of points and lost the most. I have heard arguments that "when you have played a LOT of games (more than other people in the team) you are close to your "true" MMR and you gain less points", which would be half-understandable if it was based on HL, but for TL that was the opposite. Regardless of the games i had played, or the type of ranked game, or regardless of the team you have / are playing against, when you lose ~10-30 points/loss and gain ~2-10 points/win, how are you supposed climb ranks?
Well idk, maybe i am just terrible at the game but i KNOW i could do better with better teammates, and while playing only team league i could play maybe 1-2 games/week when certain people happen to be online it 's just... meh.. Hero league was just completely unplayable. I don't even mind if i lost all the games i ever play if i could learn something about the losses, but when you play 20 games / day, lose 13 of them and 10 are completely unplayable so that it would just be better to quit the game from the beginning it really just kills my interest into the game.
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I think that if you were at 1000 MMR and thinking you were never making critical mistakes, then you are not critical enough of your own gameplay. I see critical mistakes of my own almost in every game.
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I meant in a sense that around a level that is considered about 2,5x my MMR i can easily compete with the people, not needing to be told what to do other than how it is usually done in the games (someone calls a shot and people agree with it and go with it). I, basically never, let my team down in a team fight for example in a sense that i "didn't know how to engage" or "when to engage" in comparison to other people playing in the said game. I am not saying i don't make mistakes, lol, everyone does.
I am saying i could easily play at that level just as well as my teammates, based on the experience of ~30-40 games. Climbing up to that level (or even anywhere near) in hero league was however impossible, regardless of how i tried that, regardless of the class/hero i played or however i tried to "lead the team", regardless of what i said in the draft, or regardless of if i do things the team wants to do or not.
Again, i am not saying i am perfect, don't make mistakes, or even that i am good at the game. I am saying that the level on which i played on team league the game was fun and i could play there quite well even regarding not only mechanical skills but also shot calling and stuff like that, but since i could only play there occasionally and playing hero league was literally pain in the ass and the chance to "get better" in most of the games or even climb the ladder was non-existent from where i was i just quit.
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On July 19 2016 00:14 raynpelikoneet wrote: I meant in a sense that around a level that is considered about 2,5x my MMR i can easily compete with the people, not needing to be told what to do other than how it is usually done in the games (someone calls a shot and people agree with it and go with it). I, basically never, let my team down in a team fight for example in a sense that i "didn't know how to engage" or "when to engage" in comparison to other people playing in the said game. I am not saying i don't make mistakes, lol, everyone does.
I am saying i could easily play at that level just as well as my teammates, based on the experience of ~30-40 games. Climbing up to that level (or even anywhere near) in hero league was however impossible, regardless of how i tried that, regardless of the class/hero i played or however i tried to "lead the team", regardless of what i said in the draft, or regardless of if i do things the team wants to do or not.
Again, i am not saying i am perfect, don't make mistakes, or even that i am good at the game. I am saying that the level on which i played on team league the game was fun and i could play there quite well even regarding not only mechanical skills but also shot calling and stuff like that, but since i could only play there occasionally and playing hero league was literally pain in the ass and the chance to "get better" in most of the games or even climb the ladder was non-existent from where i was i just quit.
I have many friends in silver league who say similar things to me. When we party for unranked draft, I do not agree that they make no mistakes. [and frequently feel that a great burden is on me to carry them]
But, I do not comment on these things---because friendships are what they are, and ultimately me saying things like "you go too deep in teamfights", or "you over extend in lane", or "the reason diablo killed you is you (as zag) were the furthest forward for some reason" are either not well received or they don't seem to change their behavior. I think the only way to improve really is to be able to see why your mistakes are mistakes yourself.
Frequently the mistakes they are making they chalk up to random chance. I chalk these kinds of mistakes up as "major blunders that potentially cost us the game unless teammates can exploit the other team's blunders in kind"
edit-> On a similar vein, I never find myself thinking during my games with them "wow, they just made a great move that really put us far ahead". Passive play is also play that won't carry teams, so there is a balance between safety and accomplishing things that is very delicate.
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On July 18 2016 23:40 MotherFox wrote: I think that if you were at 1000 MMR and thinking you were never making critical mistakes, then you are not critical enough of your own gameplay. I see critical mistakes of my own almost in every game. A big hurdle for many people in my opinion is: its just easier to see other peoples mistakes. An example: You got ganked once as solo laner and miss 1 xp wave. Then the team fights 9v10 and you are like 'why do you even fight 9v10?'. Of course if you wouldnt have died, there would be no 9v10 and maybe nobody dies. All hypothetical, but thats stuff so few people are considering. And I dont exclude myself, its just easier to look for others mistakes.
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On July 19 2016 02:45 Zeon0 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2016 23:40 MotherFox wrote: I think that if you were at 1000 MMR and thinking you were never making critical mistakes, then you are not critical enough of your own gameplay. I see critical mistakes of my own almost in every game. A big hurdle for many people in my opinion is: its just easier to see other peoples mistakes. An example: You got ganked once as solo laner and miss 1 xp wave. Then the team fights 9v10 and you are like 'why do you even fight 9v10?'. Of course if you wouldnt have died, there would be no 9v10 and maybe nobody dies. All hypothetical, but thats stuff so few people are considering. And I dont exclude myself, its just easier to look for others mistakes.
This is a good point--- mistakes are frequently compounding. Another example would be if you get picked in the late game. If your team stays back and waits for you to be back before engaging, that's great--- but if they don't, the temptation is to say "why did you guys let them get us on rotating death timers?"
But really, if you had just not started the cycle in the first place then it might never have happened.
A personal example: last night I had a game on tomb of the spiderqueen where after my early draft choice of diablo, the team decided to not really go with any wavepush at all. We lost all three keeps, our core was down to 30%--- but then we team wiped them. We pushed out top lane, turned in, pushed: teamwiped them again, got boss, turned in again, and then pushed to win on top. I died with a quick respawn, and instinctively queued up to go to the core again to help clean up, since our focus-damage for core wasn't great. After I was about 1/3 of the way across the map, I noticed 3 catapults coming up to our core. I turned around, and managed to kill two of them before the last catapult finished off our core.
I could blame our team for not drafting strong lane-pushers on tomb(and I do blame them for that). I could also blame kerrigan/nova for not getting picks in the early game against a zag that was strongly overextending. But ultimately my own lack of map awareness cost us the game in those final moments. In addition, there were plenty of places in the game where I could have done better with my initiates/etc. So, I think it is a deserved loss on my part even though I am pretty sure that with better teammates we would have "won". But they(my teammates) can say the same of me.
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On July 19 2016 02:45 Zeon0 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2016 23:40 MotherFox wrote: I think that if you were at 1000 MMR and thinking you were never making critical mistakes, then you are not critical enough of your own gameplay. I see critical mistakes of my own almost in every game. A big hurdle for many people in my opinion is: its just easier to see other peoples mistakes. An example: You got ganked once as solo laner and miss 1 xp wave. Then the team fights 9v10 and you are like 'why do you even fight 9v10?'. Of course if you wouldnt have died, there would be no 9v10 and maybe nobody dies. All hypothetical, but thats stuff so few people are considering. And I dont exclude myself, its just easier to look for others mistakes. That's not really the problem i am facing.
The problem i am facing is that even if me or someone else pinged like a madman for a lane the player there doesn't respond in any way and gets ganked 5 seconds later. Or that the person who for any reason got ganked says or pings danger for the rest of the team and they still engage 4v5.
And those things happen, well probably on higher levels too, just not that much. But the REAL problem is that if you try to tell the team "okay guys we should not do this, please respond to the pings, people ping danger for a reason. and if someone dies, don't engage like that 4v5", most of the people think they made the right decision and someone else fucked up (as you guys said). Nothing changes and the same thing happens over and over again. And i have absolutely no idea what to do at that point, because there is no convincing to change the way your team plays.
It's not about making a mistake, or whose fault it is, it's more about people at this level not even trying to understand. My biggest strength in the game, due to having played SC, BW & SC2 for almost two decades is that i actually look at the minimap and understand what it means when people are at certain locations or moving somewhere, or not showing at all. But when your team has 2 people dead and you ping danger at the boss which the enemy team is obviously taking, why does the rest of the team have to go suicide there when they can't even get there in time? Even "don't go, 3v5" doesn't stop them a lot of the time... And why does it happen ALWAYS, don't people learn from their mistakes at all?
+ i don't really get ganked, hardly ever i do, for the above.
The problem is, even if you know what to do, or even if you knew how to do it, most of the games are basically decided by which team sticks together and when someone dies, others do / do not suicide like idiots. If you can't convince your team to "do the right thing", you can basically tell the game is lost in the first 6-9 minutes.
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On July 19 2016 03:23 raynpelikoneet wrote:
The problem is, even if you know what to do, or even if you knew how to do it, most of the games are basically decided by which team sticks together and when someone dies, others do / do not suicide like idiots. If you can't convince your team to "do the right thing", you can basically tell the game is lost in the first 6-9 minutes.
I don't know what to say other than that I know what you are talking about: at one point I was stuck down in the r30's. Then I got better, and I (slowly) started rising in rank.
Maybe you are right: maybe you are a great player who is stuck in the burning hells of hero league. But when I go on big losing streaks for whatever reason & plummet in rank, they are always followed by winning streaks where I am top siege/hero/xp/ganks/whatever. Individual players can carry if they look for the opportunities.
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The problem is other players thinking they're god send. I myself know I'm not amazing, but I do have a better understanding at times than my team mates of how the game is going. I've only played Li-Ming, Raynor and the occasional Muradin, and have carried teams to victory by just being an exceptional player using op characters. The system does clearly define the rank you're suppose to play in, but I do think that placements in the game don't work very well yet.
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MMR hell is pretty much perception bias with a large dose of dunning-kruger.
When you are looking at the game you can easily recognize mistakes that others make, e.g. "Oh, that guy face checked, what a noob". Mistakes are usually blindingly obvious and result in the player making it dying a stupid death or taking a lot of damage.
What you don't recognize is everything that that player does right, which has multiple reasons. For one, to recognize skill you need to be good enough to recognize that skill. If you are a bad player, you aren't good enough to recognize the more subtle good plays. Sure, everyone can recognize the epic gust or mosh that won the game, though those don't actually require high skill, but things like perfect positioning in teamfights are hard to recognize if you are not very good at positioning yourself. Secondly, lots of good plays result in nothing happening. Someone who didn't get caught and didn't get killed because he acted correctly just doesn't draw attention.
That results in everyone seeing only the mistakes of his teammates, not what they did correctly, and so results in the impression that the teammates are worse than the player himself. Add to it that you generally can't see the mistakes of the enemy due to the fog of war and it's easy to understand why people always think their team is terrible but rarely say that the enemy team is equally terrible.
The extra dose of dunning-kruger is the assumption that the player himself wouldn't have made that obvious mistake... and then he face checks a bush 10s later, gets lucky and doesn't get caught doing it and so doesn't even notice that he just made the same mistake.
The whole design of MOBAs since the days of WC3 AoS lends itself to the impression that your teammates are always worse than you are and your opponents are always better than your team, i.e. MMR hell. It's simply the way mind and perception work in a game with incomplete information.
My personal opinion is that lots of weak players need to focus on mechanics. As a higher level player you can often easily 1v2 or even 1v3 weak players with the right heroes, because those weak players might be decent at not face checking and not running around in the wrong place, but they eat every skillshot, miss every of their own skillshots, don't know how to kite/stutter step and don't use their abilities in the best way. When they watch pro games, they see progamers making tactical mistakes, walking into traps and such, and they think "If they can be progamers making such obvious mistakes, I should be there, too". What they don't recognize is the mechanical ability that they lack and which is keeping them down.
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On July 18 2016 21:50 raynpelikoneet wrote:I basically stopped playing heroes for similar reasons that are discussed here. Before the reset i hovered around 1k MMR in HL and it was impossible to do anything in like half of the games. What are you supposed to do when literally 50% of the games are lost at about 7 min mark since the enemy team has something like Diablo, Tyrande and Nova/Zeratul and your team cannot understand what "play it safe, they are gonna roam" means and the enemy team is 2-3 levels ahead at that point? Or when your team doesn't understand (not to even talk about using) danger/retreat pings.Or when your team - without paying attention to any pings / messages suicides endlessly 1/2v5 into enemy team and then blame the rest of the team for "not being there" (when it is impossible to be there at that time from a lane when for example an objective spawns). I mean, i don't claim to be good at the game, i have absolutely no idea where i "should be" or if i should be where i am (was), but what i do know that when i played team league, my MMR was 2x higher, and while playing with ppl around 2,5k-3k (in TL) i wasn't carried and almost never made anything that anyone considers a "critical mistake". People at low levels 90% of the time just don't listen, and it is almost always impossible to tell them how to improve or what to do better in the current game. Maybe it works better on higher MMR games, but how could i know about that (or why would that affect me). I actually wonder how it is possible that (even in team league -- where everyone from my party had played more games than i have), based on hotslogs i almost always gained the lowest number of points and lost the most. I have heard arguments that "when you have played a LOT of games (more than other people in the team) you are close to your "true" MMR and you gain less points", which would be half-understandable if it was based on HL, but for TL that was the opposite. Regardless of the games i had played, or the type of ranked game, or regardless of the team you have / are playing against, when you lose ~10-30 points/loss and gain ~2-10 points/win, how are you supposed climb ranks? Well idk, maybe i am just terrible at the game but i KNOW i could do better with better teammates, and while playing only team league i could play maybe 1-2 games/week when certain people happen to be online it 's just... meh.. Hero league was just completely unplayable. I don't even mind if i lost all the games i ever play if i could learn something about the losses, but when you play 20 games / day, lose 13 of them and 10 are completely unplayable so that it would just be better to quit the game from the beginning it really just kills my interest into the game.
According to Hotslogs the account I played on had around a 800 MMR in HL when I started playing on it. But for a few games where it was simply too much - like Illidan Hunting into 5 of them post level 20 when we had a Boss pushing our Core - it was relatively easy to carry players who did all of the things you complained about and more.
Heroes like Zeratul/Nova are devastating to lower level players who aren't as aware and prone to overextension - but they offer a lot less in teamfights (since a good VP is rare from low league Zeratuls).
It's important to note that at lower levels talent tiers don't matter so much. Players will not be anywhere near as capable of capitalising on the advantage of timings etc. Fighting 9v10 is very hard ofc, but 12v14, 15v16 or whatever is not as big of a deal as it is at higher levels. If you're good enough mechanically you can carry through a fight because they WILL have overextended squishies, they WILL have bad positioning in general and they WILL whiff important abilities/skillshots - just like your team will. If a fight is gonna happen, be there to fight it even if it isn't the ideal situation to fight. Better to go as 5 and die as 5 than go as 4 and die as 4.
For an example on how lower level players will miss out on things - I capped the sieges top on cursed hollow at 2:00 (+ however long it took me to kill them) - and trib was bot. My team engaged 4v5 and died, losing the tribute. Naturally I was flamed for not being there. We were down 7v6 for second trib, but I was there and was able to win the fight with the team. The siege camp pushed for 4 minutes straight before they cleaned it up, practically killing the fort top - it was easy to then finish the fort and give us a lead for the curse point and snowball from there.
Another thing you can do is subscribe to the idea that low league has a different meta to higher levels. I found that Morales was banned nearly every game in Bronze, whereas she's practically untouched at Diamond/Masters. Banning nova isn't a bad call by any means - I did it myself on a few occasions when I would think "man, a nova would destroy these guys".
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On July 20 2016 01:44 Larkin wrote:
According to Hotslogs the account I played on had around a 800 MMR in HL...<snip>...Banning nova isn't a bad call by any means - I did it myself on a few occasions
800 MMR account is the banner. This is a whole level of play I probably haven't seen in at least a year.
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If i am 1000 and 800 is the banner it's better than i quit the game tbh, i am just too bad at it.
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On July 20 2016 02:00 MotherFox wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2016 01:44 Larkin wrote:
According to Hotslogs the account I played on had around a 800 MMR in HL...<snip>...Banning nova isn't a bad call by any means - I did it myself on a few occasions 800 MMR account is the banner. This is a whole level of play I probably haven't seen in at least a year.
Yeah, though I did soar to around 1300 MMR by the end as hotslogs was recording about 50+ for every win. Ofc, there were times I was the banner and had way lower MMR on hotslogs than other people - it's definitely a less accurate measure at lower levels.
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