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Patch Notes
General
Malthael’s Bargain Event + Show Spoiler + Earn epic in-game rewards in both Diablo III and Heroes just by playing Heroes of the Storm with a friend! Quest: Play 15 Games with friend in VS AI, QM, Ranked, and Unranked as Diablo Heroes Heroes of the Storm Rewards: Leoric’s Phantom Charger, 1x Epic Loot Chest Diablo III Rewards: Ghost Kerrigan Wings The event begins during the week of June 12, and lasts until June 26. Click here to learn more about Malthael's Bargain.
New Hero: Malthael + Show Spoiler + Once the Aspect of Wisdom, Malthael abandoned heaven after the Worldstone’s destruction. In secret, he had resolved to end the Eternal Conflict by becoming a Reaper of Souls and eliminating everything affected by demonic corruption, including humanity.
Trait
Reaper’s Mark Basic Attacks afflict non-Structure targets with Reaper’s Mark for 4 seconds. Marked enemies are revealed and take damage equal to 2.5% of their maximum Health every second.
Basic Abilities
Soul Rip (Q) Extract the souls of nearby enemies afflicted with Reaper’s Mark, dealing damage and Healing Malthael for a portion of the damage dealt to each target hit. Heroic targets heal Malthael for an additional 3% of the Hero’s maximum Health. Wraith Strike (W) Instantly teleport through an enemy afflicted by Reaper’s Mark, dealing damage and refreshing Reaper’s Mark. Death Shroud (E) After 0.25 seconds, unleash a wave of dark mist that applies Reaper’s Mark to the enemies it hits.
Heroic Abilities
Tormented Strike (R) Gain 20 Armor and unleash a torrent of souls, continually applying Reaper’s Mark to enemies for 4 seconds. Last Rites (R) Apply a death sentence to an enemy Hero that, after 2 seconds, deals damage equal to 50% of their missing Health. (!) Repeatable Quest: Enemies killed while under the effect of Last Rites permanently reduce its cooldown by 5 seconds, to a minimum of 15 seconds.
Art
General + Show Spoiler + New loading screen art, created by artist Alex Horley, has been added in celebration of Malthael’s arrival to the Nexus.
Heroes, Abilities, and Talents + Show Spoiler + A generic marker has been added to indicate when enemies can be killed by an ability. This marker will appear above low-health enemies for Greymane and Malthael when Go for the Throat or Last Rites will deal fatal damage to the target. Tracer's Basic Attacks have received performance improvements. Genji's Dragon Claw button art has been updated to make progress easier to read at a glance. The following Heroes have received updated visual effects to coincide with Talent updates: Kerrigan Malfurion Thrall
User Interface
General + Show Spoiler + Holding SHIFT + left-clicking an Announcer, Banner, Emoji, Portrait, Spray, or Voice Line in your Collection will now create a chat link that directs other players to that item. If an item does not have its own page, the link will open to the relevant category in the Collection with that item's title in the search bar.
Hero Select + Show Spoiler + A “Close to Leveling” sorting option has been added to non-draft Hero Select and the Profile’s Roster tab. Use this sorting feature to quickly locate Heroes who require the least amount of XP in order to level-up. When two or more Heroes are tied, those Heroes will be further sorted by release date.
Hotkeys + Show Spoiler + Force Move A Force Move command has been added to the Basic Hotkeys menu. When a Hero receives a Force Move command, they will move to the target point without attacking any units on the way or anything that was clicked when the command was issued. Modifier Hotkeys ALT, CTRL, and SHIFT can now be set as Modifiers for Basic Hotkeys (Q, W, E, R, Attack, Move, etc.).
Mastery Taunts + Show Spoiler + New Mastery Taunts have been added, and can be unlocked on a per-Hero basis by reaching Hero Levels 30, 50, 75, and 100 with that Hero. Click here to learn more about Mastery Taunts.
Quest Log + Show Spoiler + Hero Levels that grant multiple progression rewards will no longer take up two or more slots in the Quest Log. Instead, hovering the cursor over that slot will now display a tooltip that communicates all rewards granted upon reaching that level. For example: Hovering the cursor over an upcoming Hero Level 10 reward will indicate that the player will receive 500 Gold and a Hero-Specific Loot Chest.
Ranked Play
General + Show Spoiler + Lessened personal rank adjustments in both Hero and Team Leagues, which will allow players’ ranks to move more quickly during win or loss streaks. Team League Team League matchmaking will now allow players to wait indefinitely until the system finds a reasonable match for their skill level. When average queue times for 2-player parties in Team League become lengthy, the leaders from additional 2-player parties attempting to enter the queue will see a warning message that they may be in for a long wait. When this occurs, the party leader can choose to enter the lengthy queue if they are willing to wait, or cancel the queue to find additional party members and get a match more quickly.
Design and Gameplay
General + Show Spoiler + Cooldowns for Abilities and Talents that can be toggled on and off have been unified to 0.5 seconds across the board. While most of these Abilities and Talents already had a 0.5 second delay, there were a few outliers, which have now been updated: Anub'arak - Legion of Beetles (Active) Thrall - Spell Shield (Active) Murky - Never-Ending Murlocs (R)
Talents + Show Spoiler + Bolt of the Storm Range reduced by 20% New Bolt of the Storm alternatives have been added to several Heroes
Developer Comment: While we love Bolt of the Storm and the playmaking potential that it provides, we believe that the talent is too often used as an extra escape. We have also received feedback that Bolt of the Storm could have more awesome moments if its playmaking potential were more tied to offensive use cases. Our goals with these changes are twofold: to consolidate Bolt of the Storm to heroes where we think it makes for awesome gameplay moments, and second to create use cases where it is more optimal to use Bolt of the Storm to make offensive plays. We hope that these changes create more interesting moments in the late-game where heroes can shine by making risky plays to ensure victory for their team.
Battlegrounds
Map Rotation Update + Show Spoiler + Thanks for sharing your Map Rotation feedback with us! As a result of community-driven discussions, we’re making all 13 Battlegrounds available for play in Versus A.I., Quick Match, and Unranked modes. Hero and Team League are now the only game modes that will feature a Map Rotation. The Ranked Map Rotation has been updated to include the following: Hanamura Dragon Shire Tomb of the Spider Queen Cursed Hollow Infernal Shrines Sky Temple Braxis Holdout Blackheart’s Bay Battlefield of Eternity A new Map Rotation icon has been added to the Ranked Play screen. Hover the cursor over the Map Rotation icon to display a list of all Battlegrounds currently available in Ranked matchmaking. Find the Map Rotation icon next to the Grand Master Leaderboard and Ranked Guide buttons.
Minions + Show Spoiler + Catapults Can now slightly overlap with one another to help prevent them from becoming stuck against one another when multiple Catapults bunch up around a Core.
Kerrigan + Show Spoiler + Talents
Level 20 Bolt of the Storm (Active) Removed New Talent – Psionic Shift (Active) Activate to teleport a short distance and deal 50 damage to enemies in the area. Enemy Heroes hit give Kerrigan 300% of the damage dealt as Assimilation Shields. 70-second cooldown.
Raynor + Show Spoiler + Talents
Level 20 Bolt of the Storm (Active) Removed
Thrall + Show Spoiler + Abilities
Chain Lightning (Q) Cooldown increased from 6 to 8 seconds Number of bounces increased from 2 to 3 Range of bounces decreased from 7 to 5 Mana cost increased from 40 to 45 Feral Spirit (W) No longer stops upon the first enemy hero hit Feral Spirit travels 25% further with each enemy hero hit Frostwolf Resilience (Trait) Heal amount decreased from 314 to 210
Talents
Level 1 Block (Passive) Removed Rabid Wolves (W) Removed Seasoned Marksman (Active) Removed New Talent: Echo of the Elements (Q) !Quest: Kill 10 minions or heroes within 1.5 seconds of them being hit by Chain Lightning Reward: Decreases the mana cost of Chain Lightning by 20 !Quest: Kill 20 minions or heroes within 1.5 seconds of them being hit by Chain Lightning Reward: Gain an additional charge of Chain Lightning New Talent: Crash Lightning (Q) !Quest: Hit at least 2 enemy heroes with a single cast of Chain Lightning Reward: Increases bounce damage by 10 up to a maximum of 400 !Quest: Hit at least 2 enemy heroes, 20 times, with a single cast of Chain Lightning Reward: Bounces of Chain Lightning now prioritize enemy heroes Rolling Thunder (Q) Added functionality: Increases Chain Lightning’s maximum bounces by 1 Level 4 Ride the Lightning (Q) Removed Spirit Journey (W) Removed Envenom (Active) Removed New Talent: Feral Resilience (W) Each enemy hero hit by Feral Spirit grants 2 charges of Block, granting 50 physical armor. Lasts until consumed or Feral Spirit is cast again. New Talent: Frostwolf Pack (W) !Quest: Hit 7 heroes with Feral Spirit. Progress is reset upon dying or if Feral Spirit doesn’t hit at least one enemy hero. Reward: Decreases the cooldown from 12 to 6 seconds, and decreases the mana cost from 60 to 30 Mana Tide (Trait) Mana gained increased from 15 to 20 Added functionality: When Mana Tide procs, now also reduces basic ability cooldowns by 0.5 seconds. Level 7 Wind Shear (E) Removed Stone Wolves (W) Removed New Talent: Maelstrom Weapon (E) !Quest: Attack enemy heroes while Windfury’s movement speed bonus is active. Reward: Increases attack damage by 1 !Quest: Attack 20 enemy heroes while Windfury’s movement speed bonus is active. Reward: Increases the movement speed bonus of Windfury from 30% to 40% !Quest: Attack 40 enemy heroes while Windfury’s movement speed bonus is active. Reward: Permanently gain 15% increased movement speed. New Talent: Ancestral Wrath (Active) Each time Frostwolf Resilience activates, Thrall gains a stack of Ancestral Wrath, up to a maximum of 8. Activate to consume 8 stacks of Ancestral Wrath, stealing 15% of target hero’s maximum health over 3 seconds. Thrall heals for 150% of this amount over 3 seconds. Level 13 Restless Wolves (W) Removed Giant Killer (Passive) Removed Spell Shield (Passive) Removed Frostwolf’s Grace (Trait) Moved from Level 7 Healing amount increased from 100 to 150% of Feral Resilience Cooldown decreased from 30 to 15 seconds New Talent: Spirit Shield (Passive) Every 45 seconds, gain 50 Spell Armor against the next enemy ability and subsequent abilities for 1.5 seconds. Triggering Frostwolf Resilience reduces this Cooldown by 5 seconds. Level 16 Forked Lightning (Q) Removed Ride the Wind (E) Removed Blood for Blood (Active) Removed New Talent: Thunderstorm (Q) !Quest: Cast Chain Lightning on a hero. Dying or casting it on the same hero twice in a row resets progress. Reward: Chain Lightning slows targets by 8%, stacking up to 40%. !Quest: Reach a 40% bonus slow. Reward: Chain Lightning deals 25% more damage to the primary target. This quest never completes and will reset even at maximum stacks. New Talent: Alpha Wolf (W) Increases root duration from 1 to 1.5 seconds. For 3 seconds after being hit by a Feral spirit, Thrall’s basic attacks deal 3% of the targets maximum health. Level 20 Bolt of the Storm (Active) Removed Worldbreaker (R) Decreases Cooldown from 70 to 50 seconds New Functionality: No Longer travels indefinitely Creates a pathing blocker for 3 seconds New Talent: Wind Rush (Active) Activate to teleport to a target location and gain Windfury 70 second CD
Developer Comment: We started looking at Thrall for a talent update as many of his talents were older generic talents, and Thrall ended up having a clear build path. Our pillar for this update was creating more talent diversity and unique ways to play. The changes to Feral Spirit add new opportunities for Thrall to make big plays, while allowing him to continue his role as a lane bully, or play with the team, depending on your playstyle. Overall, Thrall is now flush with Quest talents, and this is something we wanted to explore and are excited for your feedback.
Li Li + Show Spoiler + Talents
Level 20 Bolt of the Storm (Active) Removed
Malfurion + Show Spoiler + Abilities
Moonfire (W) Mana cost reduced from 20 to 15 Regrowth (Q) Mana cost increased from 40 to 45 Heal over time ticks reduced from 31 to 28 Twilight Dream (R) Passive Mana Regen functionality removed
Talents
Level 1 Moonburn (W) New functionality: Your Moonfire deals 75% bonus damage to Minions !Quest: Kill nearby Minions Reward: For every 5 nearby lane Minions killed, increase this damage bonus by 1%. After hitting 25% additional bonus damage, the bonus damage is also applied to Mercenaries and Monsters Level 4 Vengeful Roots (E) Entangling Roots also spawns a Treant that lasts for 10 seconds. Damage increased from 64 to 70 Treant damage no longer gains level scaling !Quest: Hit Heroes with Entangling Roots Reward: Every enemy Hero hit increases the damage of the Treant by 8 Full Moonfire (W) Moved from Level 13. Mana cost reduction decreased from 10 to 5 Radius bonus decreased from 60 to 50% Versatile (D) Removed Level 7 Strangling Vines (E) New functionality: Heroes hit by Entangling Roots have all healing received reduced by 30% for the duration of the Root effect Lunar Shower (W) Moved from Level 16 Hindering Moonfire (W) Moved from Level 16 MULE (Active) Removed Cleanse (Active) Removed Level 16 Hardened Focus (Passive) Removed New Talent – Ysera’s Gift (Q) The heal-over-time portion of Regrowth is increased by 40% while you are above 75% Health New Talent – Revitalize (D) Upon casting Innervate, Malfurion gains 50 Mana and his cooldowns refresh 50% faster for 5 seconds Level 20 Bolt of the Storm (Passive) Removed Nightmare has been renamed to Astral Communion (R) New functionality: Slow effect has been removed. When activated, channel for 1 second and then instantly teleport to the target location and cast Twilight Dream. This shares a cooldown with Twilight Dream.
Stitches + Show Spoiler + Talents
Level 20 Bolt of the Storm (Active) Removed Regenerative Bile (R) Renamed to Potent Bile New functionality: Healing and Movement Speed bonuses have been removed Putrid Bile duration bonus increased from 2 to 6 seconds Now increases the slow effect from 35 to 45% Hungry Hungry Stitches (R) Damage bonus has been removed. Added Functionality: While active, Gorge has increased range and can be repeatedly recast until the first target is expelled. Gorging a target outside of melee range will teleport Stitches to the target. New Talent: Cannibalize (Passive) Basic Attacks against enemy Heroes heal Stitches for 5% of his maximum Health.
Collection
New Bundles – The following new Bundles and Skin Packs are available for a limited time! + Show Spoiler + Echoes of Tristram Bundle Malthael Heroic Bundle Grave Warden Malthael Skin Pack
New Skins + Show Spoiler + Malthael Spectral Malthael Platinum Malthael Toxic Malthael Tarnished Malthael Grave Warden Malthael Angelic Grave Warden Malthael Crimson Grave Warden Malthael Frozen Grave Warden Malthael Timelost Grave Warden Malthael Li-Ming Tal Rasha Li-Ming Cobalt Tal Rasha Li-Ming Crimson Tal Rasha Li-Ming Murky Sir Murkalot Amber Sir Murkalot Obsidian Sir Murkalot Scarlet Sir Murkalot Steel Sir Murkalot Sylvanas Blood Raven Sylvanas Banshee Raven Sylvanas Jungle Raven Sylvanas Skeletal Raven Sylvanas Wild Raven Sylvanas Tyrael Infernal Demonic Tyrael Zeratul Unraveler Zeratul Ancient Unraveler Zeratul Golden Unraveler Zeratul Hollow Unraveler Zeratul Noxious Unraveler Zeratul
New Mounts + Show Spoiler + Golden Treasure Goblin – Can only be unlocked using Gold. Available for a limited time. Cloud Mounts Happy Cloud Sad Cloud Angry Cloud Battle Raptor Mounts – Awarded to players who achieved Platinum in Hero League or Bronze in Team League during 2017 Ranked Season 1. Battle Raptor Crimson Battle Raptor Deadly Battle Raptor Epic Battle Raptor Mounts – Awarded to players who achieved Master in Hero League or Team League during 2017 Ranked Season 1. Epic Battle Raptor Epic Crimson Battle Raptor Epic Deadly Battle Raptor
Bug Fixes
General + Show Spoiler + Fixed a number of typo and tooltip errors across several aspects of the game.
A.I. + Show Spoiler + Hanamura: A.I. players will no longer pace back and forth near the payload when a Stealthed enemy Hero is nearby.
Art + Show Spoiler + Diablo: Prime Evil Diablo’s model while no longer freeze in place during its victory animation. Murky: Octo-Grab’s model will no longer persist on the target if Murky is Stopped in the same moment that the Ability is cast. Tyrande: Trueshot Aura will now correctly display visual effects on the terrain when graphics are set to Low.
Battlegrounds + Show Spoiler + Braxis Holdout: Fixed an issue in which players could be kicked for inactivity while defending the Beacons. Cursed Hollow: A small shadow will no longer appear at the location where a new Tribute is about to spawn when graphics are set to Low. Dragon Shire: The Dragon Knight’s Savage Charge Ability will no longer cancel Anub’arak’s Burrow Charge. Hanamura: The Mega Enforcer will no longer leash after consuming a Hero. Hanamura: When the player is not holding an item, the Map Mechanic Ability button tooltip now correctly explains that Hanamura-specific Abilities can be earned by defeating Mercenaries. Hanamura: Map Mechanic Turrets can now correctly attack the Mega Enforcer and Mercenaries. Towers of Doom: Capturing an Altar will now properly reset that player’s AFK warning timer. Try Mode: The Complete Quests button will now properly complete Gazlowe’s Clockwerk Steam Fists Quest Talent. Try Mode: Complete Quests will now properly grant Ragnaros’s Catching Fire Quest Talent rewards. Try Mode: Refresh Forts will no longer cause the cooldown timer above the Healing Fountain to disappear. Mercenaries: Captured enemy Mercenaries will no longer drop Fresh Meat stacks for The Butcher or Mineral stacks for Probius.
Heroes, Abilities, and Talents + Show Spoiler + Basic Attacks: Splash and Cleave damage will now correctly reveal targets who are hit while inside Bushes and Vents. DoT Effects: Illidan’s Evasion, Chen’s Elusive Brew, and Xul’s Shade Armor will no longer prevent Damage over Time effects from displaying properly in their Health bars. DoT Effects: Enemy Health bars will now correctly display damage over time effects after being hit by Swift Strike with the Strike at the Heart Talent. Polymorphs: Fixed several issues in which Polymorph effects could incorrectly knock Heroes out of Stealth. Abathur: Locusts will now assist Heroes who are attacking a Mercenary Camp rather than immediately traveling to a lane. Abathur: Can now correctly cast Symbiote on an allied Nova’s Holo Decoys. Anub’arak: An active Cocoon will no longer be destroyed if it is moved by Abilities that block pathing, such as Tyrael’s Holy Ground or Tassadar’s Force Wall. Azmodan: All Shall Burn will now properly cancel any active Movement commands issued to Azmodan prior to casting. Azmodan: General of Hell will now assist Azmodan while he is attacking a Mercenary Camp rather than immediately traveling to a lane. Diablo: Fixed an issue that could allow Shadow Charge to Stun enemies who did not collide with the terrain. Gazlowe: Can no longer cast Deth Lazor if he has less than the required amount of Mana. Greymane: Insatiable will no longer cause Basic Attacks to restore Mana when Inner Beast is not active. Greymane: After learning Viciousness, Cursed Bullet will now correctly refresh Inner Beast’s duration. Illidan: Evasion will no longer prevent damage over time effects from displaying on Illidan’s Health bar. Kharazim: Duration bars for Echo of Heaven and Deadly Reach will now appear simultaneously if both are active at once. Li-Ming: Wave of Force will no longer cancel Sonya’s Whirlwind animation. Murky: Can now properly collect Regeneration Globes during Safety Bubble. Nazeebo: The tooltips for Nazeebo’s Voodoo Ritual Trait now properly indicate that it contains a Quest. Nazeebo: Silencing the Zombies that were created by Zombie Wall with the Dead Rush Talent will no longer prevent them from uprooting. Ragnaros: Empower Sulfuras’s animation will no longer play without dealing damage if the attack was cancelled by issuing Movement Commands. Stitches: Hook can no longer pull Stealthed enemy Heroes through allied Gates. Tassadar: Fixed an issue causing the first tick of Psionic Storm to deal slightly less damage than intended. Tassadar: After learning Prismatic Link, Basic Attacks that bounce to a secondary target will now properly reveal that enemy. The Butcher: Minions that die near The Butcher will now always drop Fresh Meat stacks. The Butcher: Fresh Meat earned via Hero Takedowns, and collected while piloting the Garden Terror or Dragon Knight, will now correctly increment The Butcher’s Fresh Meat stacks. The Butcher: Insatiable Blade’s Movement Speed bonus is now properly granted when Butcher’s Brand is applied to non-Heroic targets. Valeera: Wound Poison’s reduced Healing debuff will now correctly display a red plus symbol next to the affected Hero’s status bar rather than a purple plus overhead. Valeera: Will no longer be revealed when entering the Haunted Mines or using the Tunnel on Towers of Doom. Varian: The cooldown for Victory Rush will now be properly reduced when nearby Monsters are killed.
Sound + Show Spoiler + Collection: Brightwing will no longer play voiceover when navigating away from her Hero page in the Polish game client. Genji: Dragonblade voiceover now plays correctly and will no longer be interrupted by other sound effects.
User Interface + Show Spoiler + In-game: Zul’jin’s You Want Axe? Quest Talent will not appear complete on the in-game Score Screen’s Talents tab prior to reaching 120 stacks. In-game: Zarya’s Maximum Charge Quest Talent will not appear complete on the in-game Score Screen’s Talents tab prior to reaching 150 stacks. Mastery Taunts: Players who have Mastery Taunts will no longer receive Desync errors when loading into a game. Quick Cast: The Quick Cast setting for Varian’s passive Heroic Strike Trait has been removed from the Quick Cast Settings menu.
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Thrall rework looks very fun :o. Finally my bae getting into the meta again >
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malf has been my go-to "safe firstpick support" for a while now. The removal of cleanse means that's no longer going to be true.
From a HL perspective I guess Uther will be the viable fp support. Maybe rehgar. Everyone else lacks cleanse or has huge vulnerabilities to dive.
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To be honest I am looking forward to not seeing Malf in every game, he has been god tier for way too long.
Even though some of these changes may come down as nerfs I like their direction. Buffs or nerfs the overall design is much better in my opinion.
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oh wow just saw this
Lessened personal rank adjustments in both Hero and Team Leagues, which will allow players’ ranks to move more quickly during win or loss streaks.
makes zero sense, matchmaking is going to significantly be hurt by this. win/loss streaks are an expected part of games--- acting like they are more significant than weaving wins and losses is only going to make the matchmaker inaccurate.
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Seems like Blizzard is trying to phase out shared talents. Sprint is out of the game, Bolt seems to be following suit.
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United States4883 Posts
On June 06 2017 02:52 Ej_ wrote:Thrall rework looks very fun :o. Finally my bae getting into the meta again >
I think Thrall is worse now. Most of the reworked talents are straight up terrible, I'd probably still more or less go the old build. The only new talent that is actually viable is Echo of the Elements at level 1.
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Germany25638 Posts
Fixed title
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On June 06 2017 12:28 EsportsJohn wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2017 02:52 Ej_ wrote:Thrall rework looks very fun :o. Finally my bae getting into the meta again > I think Thrall is worse now. Most of the reworked talents are straight up terrible, I'd probably still more or less go the old build. The only new talent that is actually viable is Echo of the Elements at level 1. I think wolf talents at 4+16 make him a lot better vs heroes that he can't straight up blow up anymore (which is way too many for my liking...)
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On June 06 2017 09:56 MotherFox wrote: oh wow just saw this
Lessened personal rank adjustments in both Hero and Team Leagues, which will allow players’ ranks to move more quickly during win or loss streaks.
makes zero sense, matchmaking is going to significantly be hurt by this. win/loss streaks are an expected part of games--- acting like they are more significant than weaving wins and losses is only going to make the matchmaker inaccurate.
Yeah this is an absolutely terrible idea as far as I can tell.
Also: Obligatory QQ that Hanamura is (as could be only expected) still in rotation Such a silly map.
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Played a few games on Thrall, really like the trait talents at 4 and 13. My go-to build right now is:
1 Echo of the Elements 4 Frostwolf Pack/Mana Tide (for hardcore PvE); Feral Resillience seems very good vs heroes that want to punch Thrall in the face (Illidan, Sonya?) 7 Follow Through 10 13 Frostwolf's Grace; Spirit Shield vs heavy burst 16 Alpha Wolf 20 Wind Rush
Definitely disagree with John about the power of new talents, the rebuild at the very least opened up his lv4 choice.
edit: there's also a bug where Thrall sitting in DK (garden terror probably too) displays 0 Frostwolf Pack stacks on scoreboard
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Rich and Horsepants' early impressions seem to favor Maelstrom Weapon over Follow Through at 7
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Hope they add an option to keep D.Va theme in menu ;_;. Will miss that so much.
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8715 Posts
On June 06 2017 09:56 MotherFox wrote: makes zero sense, matchmaking is going to significantly be hurt by this. win/loss streaks are an expected part of games--- acting like they are more significant than weaving wins and losses is only going to make the matchmaker inaccurate. I wouldn't say it makes zero sense. I think your argument is valid but it doesn't lead to a conclusion; it leads to a questions: how many people are at the incorrect rank and would benefit from a system that moved them to the correct place faster and how many people are in the correct place and will now end up in the wrong place because of lucky/unlucky win/loss streaks?
Most tweaks are going to have a downside so you can't be against every change just by pointing out the downside. You have to judge how big of a problem the two things being affected are and how big of a positive or negative impact the changes will have on each affected thing. Without having as much data or the tools that the Blizzard guys making these changes have, not much we can do but have faith that they did good work in determining that this tweak is an overall improvement. That's all we can do is eyeball it from one player's experience and that won't give us good answers.
Off topic / new topic: I know Tyrande reworked was in a previous patch but she's pretty damn fun in QM. Typically go for stun quest lvl 1, heal cooldown reduction, take Shadowstalk, and be a stealth stalker who opens from flank with stun + trait and can out-duel pretty much anyone.
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On June 08 2017 00:56 NonY wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2017 09:56 MotherFox wrote: makes zero sense, matchmaking is going to significantly be hurt by this. win/loss streaks are an expected part of games--- acting like they are more significant than weaving wins and losses is only going to make the matchmaker inaccurate. I wouldn't say it makes zero sense. I think your argument is valid but it doesn't lead to a conclusion; it leads to a questions: how many people are at the incorrect rank and would benefit from a system that moved them to the correct place faster and how many people are in the correct place and will now end up in the wrong place because of lucky/unlucky win/loss streaks? Most tweaks are going to have a downside so you can't be against every change just by pointing out the downside. You have to judge how big of a problem the two things being affected are and how big of a positive or negative impact the changes will have on each affected thing. Without having as much data or the tools that the Blizzard guys making these changes have, not much we can do but have faith that they did good work in determining that this tweak is an overall improvement. That's all we can do is eyeball it from one player's experience and that won't give us good answers.
I'm not speaking out against all change: I'm speaking out against this very specific one. Their logic seems to be "If you are on a win streak, you are underranked" and "If you are on a loss streak, you are overranked". That logic doesn't follow, since win streaks and loss streaks are expected outcomes of fair games.
If the logic behind a change is faulty, I'm going to be against it. That's as simple as it gets.
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On June 07 2017 08:18 karazax wrote: Rich and Horsepants' early impressions seem to favor Maelstrom Weapon over Follow Through at 7 Maelstrom Weapon is near useless when laning so I don't like it that much. Maths says it is better in teamfights tho and will probably be standard.
I really want this patch to go live so I can play Thrall and Dragon Shire :D
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8715 Posts
On June 08 2017 04:36 MotherFox wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2017 00:56 NonY wrote:On June 06 2017 09:56 MotherFox wrote: makes zero sense, matchmaking is going to significantly be hurt by this. win/loss streaks are an expected part of games--- acting like they are more significant than weaving wins and losses is only going to make the matchmaker inaccurate. I wouldn't say it makes zero sense. I think your argument is valid but it doesn't lead to a conclusion; it leads to a questions: how many people are at the incorrect rank and would benefit from a system that moved them to the correct place faster and how many people are in the correct place and will now end up in the wrong place because of lucky/unlucky win/loss streaks? Most tweaks are going to have a downside so you can't be against every change just by pointing out the downside. You have to judge how big of a problem the two things being affected are and how big of a positive or negative impact the changes will have on each affected thing. Without having as much data or the tools that the Blizzard guys making these changes have, not much we can do but have faith that they did good work in determining that this tweak is an overall improvement. That's all we can do is eyeball it from one player's experience and that won't give us good answers. I'm not speaking out against all change: I'm speaking out against this very specific one. Their logic seems to be "If you are on a win streak, you are underranked" and "If you are on a loss streak, you are overranked". That logic doesn't follow, since win streaks and loss streaks are expected outcomes of fair games. If the logic behind a change is faulty, I'm going to be against it. That's as simple as it gets. I'm with you up to this point but we need to take it further because you are speaking against all change if the scenarios are never black and white. You are correct that people who are properly ranked do go on streaks that aren't indicative of a significant gain or loss of skill -- naturally occurring streaks. And you're right that when the system adds a greater point/rank significance to those streaks, it's making an erroneous ("illogical") adjustment. But how often does that happen and how big of a problem is it when it does happen? If it's not very often and it doesn't create a big problem, then that may be an inefficiency that you accept if it means reducing a greater inefficiency elsewhere. Like when people come back for 2.0 and their rank is way off. Or whatever is going on. Blizzard has the data and the tools so that's why I say we can only trust that they're doing a good job of interpreting it. Our individual player perspectives are not enough to mount a good criticism.
So if the logical thing to do is to improve the rank system as a whole, to make overall improvements, then it's possible that doing things that make the system worse in a way are correct because their net impact is positive. It sounds like you will only approve of pareto improvements but I think the designers of rank systems have already plucked all the low hanging pareto improvement fruits. Improvements now are more likely to come from observing their particular data, learning the behavior of their current players, and making tweaks that are compromises and hopefully net improvements.
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On June 09 2017 01:39 NonY wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2017 04:36 MotherFox wrote:On June 08 2017 00:56 NonY wrote:On June 06 2017 09:56 MotherFox wrote: makes zero sense, matchmaking is going to significantly be hurt by this. win/loss streaks are an expected part of games--- acting like they are more significant than weaving wins and losses is only going to make the matchmaker inaccurate. I wouldn't say it makes zero sense. I think your argument is valid but it doesn't lead to a conclusion; it leads to a questions: how many people are at the incorrect rank and would benefit from a system that moved them to the correct place faster and how many people are in the correct place and will now end up in the wrong place because of lucky/unlucky win/loss streaks? Most tweaks are going to have a downside so you can't be against every change just by pointing out the downside. You have to judge how big of a problem the two things being affected are and how big of a positive or negative impact the changes will have on each affected thing. Without having as much data or the tools that the Blizzard guys making these changes have, not much we can do but have faith that they did good work in determining that this tweak is an overall improvement. That's all we can do is eyeball it from one player's experience and that won't give us good answers. I'm not speaking out against all change: I'm speaking out against this very specific one. Their logic seems to be "If you are on a win streak, you are underranked" and "If you are on a loss streak, you are overranked". That logic doesn't follow, since win streaks and loss streaks are expected outcomes of fair games. If the logic behind a change is faulty, I'm going to be against it. That's as simple as it gets. I'm with you up to this point but we need to take it further because you are speaking against all change if the scenarios are never black and white. You are correct that people who are properly ranked do go on streaks that aren't indicative of a significant gain or loss of skill -- naturally occurring streaks. And you're right that when the system adds a greater point/rank significance to those streaks, it's making an erroneous ("illogical") adjustment. But how often does that happen and how big of a problem is it when it does happen?
It happens more often than most people think. I just created a very basic simulation using excel which put a "well matched player"(that is, 50% winrate for an entire season with win chances being independent of each other), and had the program count up the number of win and loss streaks of differing amounts. Over a season's worth of games(120), the player had 9 4-game win or loss streaks and 5 5-game win or loss streaks. (the 5-game win/loss streak figure obviously includes the 4-game win/loss streaks. So it's 4 more win/loss streaks.)
I re-randomized the data 100 times. Unsurprisingly, 100% of the simulations I ran had a win or loss streak of 5 or more. Around 80% of them had win/loss streaks of 6 or more.
If it's not very often and it doesn't create a big problem, then that may be an inefficiency that you accept if it means reducing a greater inefficiency elsewhere.
Win/loss streaks are much more common than most humans believe they are. This is a key feature of why humans are so bad at generating random numbers themselves, and also why humans that follow things like sports and gambling buy so much into confirmation bias with regards to win streaks and loss streaks.
So if the logical thing to do is to improve the rank system as a whole, to make overall improvements, then it's possible that doing things that make the system worse in a way are correct because their net impact is positive. It sounds like you will only approve of pareto improvements but I think the designers of rank systems have already plucked all the low hanging pareto improvement fruits. Improvements now are more likely to come from observing their particular data, learning the behavior of their current players, and making tweaks that are compromises and hopefully net improvements.
So one--- I'm not sure what pareto improvements have to do with this. Bad matchmaking is bad for everyone--- I'm not sure that anyone really benefits from it.
Second, the problem with the logic you present above is it applies to basically any change blizzard makes. You could use the same logic to back up an idea of "let's assign double points to people who win games and half points to people who lose games"---- after all, even if it doesn't logically make sense it might cancel out some other inefficiency in the system. But ultimately ideas for change should ideally make logical sense when it comes to bringing about positive change to the system, and at worst it should be unclear whether it will make matchmaking better or worse. This idea----as stated in the post---- does not hold water.
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On June 09 2017 10:51 MotherFox wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2017 01:39 NonY wrote:On June 08 2017 04:36 MotherFox wrote:On June 08 2017 00:56 NonY wrote:On June 06 2017 09:56 MotherFox wrote: makes zero sense, matchmaking is going to significantly be hurt by this. win/loss streaks are an expected part of games--- acting like they are more significant than weaving wins and losses is only going to make the matchmaker inaccurate. I wouldn't say it makes zero sense. I think your argument is valid but it doesn't lead to a conclusion; it leads to a questions: how many people are at the incorrect rank and would benefit from a system that moved them to the correct place faster and how many people are in the correct place and will now end up in the wrong place because of lucky/unlucky win/loss streaks? Most tweaks are going to have a downside so you can't be against every change just by pointing out the downside. You have to judge how big of a problem the two things being affected are and how big of a positive or negative impact the changes will have on each affected thing. Without having as much data or the tools that the Blizzard guys making these changes have, not much we can do but have faith that they did good work in determining that this tweak is an overall improvement. That's all we can do is eyeball it from one player's experience and that won't give us good answers. I'm not speaking out against all change: I'm speaking out against this very specific one. Their logic seems to be "If you are on a win streak, you are underranked" and "If you are on a loss streak, you are overranked". That logic doesn't follow, since win streaks and loss streaks are expected outcomes of fair games. If the logic behind a change is faulty, I'm going to be against it. That's as simple as it gets. I'm with you up to this point but we need to take it further because you are speaking against all change if the scenarios are never black and white. You are correct that people who are properly ranked do go on streaks that aren't indicative of a significant gain or loss of skill -- naturally occurring streaks. And you're right that when the system adds a greater point/rank significance to those streaks, it's making an erroneous ("illogical") adjustment. But how often does that happen and how big of a problem is it when it does happen? It happens more often than most people think. I just created a very basic simulation using excel which put a "well matched player"(that is, 50% winrate for an entire season with win chances being independent of each other), and had the program count up the number of win and loss streaks of differing amounts. Over a season's worth of games(120), the player had 9 4-game win or loss streaks and 5 5-game win or loss streaks. (the 5-game win/loss streak figure obviously includes the 4-game win/loss streaks. So it's 4 more win/loss streaks.) I re-randomized the data 100 times. Unsurprisingly, 100% of the simulations I ran had a win or loss streak of 5 or more. Around 80% of them had win/loss streaks of 6 or more. Show nested quote + If it's not very often and it doesn't create a big problem, then that may be an inefficiency that you accept if it means reducing a greater inefficiency elsewhere.
Win/loss streaks are much more common than most humans believe they are. This is a key feature of why humans are so bad at generating random numbers themselves, and also why humans that follow things like sports and gambling buy so much into confirmation bias with regards to win streaks and loss streaks. Show nested quote + So if the logical thing to do is to improve the rank system as a whole, to make overall improvements, then it's possible that doing things that make the system worse in a way are correct because their net impact is positive. It sounds like you will only approve of pareto improvements but I think the designers of rank systems have already plucked all the low hanging pareto improvement fruits. Improvements now are more likely to come from observing their particular data, learning the behavior of their current players, and making tweaks that are compromises and hopefully net improvements.
So one--- I'm not sure what pareto improvements have to do with this. Bad matchmaking is bad for everyone--- I'm not sure that anyone really benefits from it. Second, the problem with the logic you present above is it applies to basically any change blizzard makes. You could use the same logic to back up an idea of "let's assign double points to people who win games and half points to people who lose games"---- after all, even if it doesn't logically make sense it might cancel out some other inefficiency in the system. But ultimately ideas for change should ideally make logical sense when it comes to bringing about positive change to the system, and at worst it should be unclear whether it will make matchmaking better or worse. This idea----as stated in the post---- does not hold water.
I'm pretty sure what NonY is attempting to point out is that there are two different reasons for streaks: 1) Random chance, and 2) Mis-ranked players.
A change that adds momentum to streaks is beneficial to players from group #2, since it allows them to reach their accurate rank more quickly. However, as you point out, it's detrimental to players from group #1, since they can experience streaks purely due to random chance, and can then be pushed out of an accurate rank. So the amount of momentum that ranking adjustments should have needs to be a balance between these two groups (which is what he is referring to with the pareto comment). All NonY is saying is that he trusts Blizzard to look at their data and make the right decision in how to balance between the two groups.
As someone who has worked on individual matchmaking ratings in random group games on an AAA game, it can be pretty useful to include some amount of momentum as opposed to using a raw ELO system, or else it can take a very long time for a player to reach their true rank, which can be annoying to the player.
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Tbh for a game of 5 players per team I feel like hots has a good matchmaking, at least since the last couple of seasons. Always took me between 45 to 75 games (from 1st placement) to get Master league. Pretty consistent if you ask me. Also, most people in my friend list that I know well enough are in the division that I feel they belong.. Seriously if you're "stuck" in gold/plat or whatever, it's time to face the truth and focus on improving your weak points instead of blaming matchmakin/teamates. Everyone loses games because of others, you rank up over time by not being the player that loses the game.
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QM, on the other hand, seems to deteriorate on a daily basis. I keep getting placed into games that are literally impossible to win (abathur, lili, sgt hammer, lucio and me randoming into Medivh has happened multiple times now). It is....frustrating, to put it one way lol.
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On June 12 2017 19:45 farvacola wrote: QM, on the other hand, seems to deteriorate on a daily basis. I keep getting placed into games that are literally impossible to win (abathur, lili, sgt hammer, lucio and me randoming into Medivh has happened multiple times now). It is....frustrating, to put it one way lol. Aba\lili is imba. Clearly you just don't know the way.
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One thing I've noticed in QM is that the Warrior/Support on both sides rule is being ignored at times. I've had cases where the enemy team had a Tyrande or Tassadar and we had no Support at all. Same thing with Warriors (I know Varian is an exception but D'Va counts as a Warrior doesn't she?).
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On June 12 2017 20:46 Thezzy wrote: One thing I've noticed in QM is that the Warrior/Support on both sides rule is being ignored at times. I've had cases where the enemy team had a Tyrande or Tassadar and we had no Support at all. Same thing with Warriors (I know Varian is an exception but D'Va counts as a Warrior doesn't she?).
Either they must have incorporated some of the soft definitions into the roles or it is just the system saying I'd rather put you into a game than not.
I've seen games too where we have Sonya and they have no warrior at all. Makes sense if you consider her a bruiser and not a pure tank, but is generally unfair because kinda tank is still better than no tank. Tyrande and Tass too aren't/weren't considered solo support viable for non competitive games, even solo tass was only run so often.
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Guess QM is just going to stay so random. Sometimes giving no frontline and other times giving no damage. At least the toxicity and idiocy in QM is a tad lower than in HL for some reason and there are times one simply wants to play a certain hero.
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Well I stopped playing HL due to the cancerous teammates always flaming. In QM I at least get to telll them to chill the fuck out
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Didn't play a lot since the Gazlowe changes (Probius patch) wich I didn't like and only recently started to play more. I must say my games are very pleasant. (Almost) No flaming, trolls or AFK people. Good effort on both sides. Yeah sure some bad players and some wonky QM comps but nothing mayor.
I don't play most of the newer heroes but most seem pretty cool and balanced. Also no crazy meta. Maybe I am just lucky or its the 'end of season don't care' attitude but the game to me seems better than ever (and I allways liked it quite a lot).
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On June 12 2017 21:14 Thezzy wrote: Guess QM is just going to stay so random. Sometimes giving no frontline and other times giving no damage. At least the toxicity and idiocy in QM is a tad lower than in HL for some reason and there are times one simply wants to play a certain hero.
On June 12 2017 23:44 Sakat wrote: Well I stopped playing HL due to the cancerous teammates always flaming. In QM I at least get to telll them to chill the fuck out
People are so ludicrously cancerous in HL games, people will sit there typing up a storm telling other's how to play while they feed and rage. After I started auto muting everyone in all my games, my HOTS game quality has went way up. If they can't respond to simple pings and watch their own mini map then forget them, they are already hopeless, verbal communication will do nothing.
QM comps are retarded atm though, just change the QM so that when one team get's a Varian at the very least the other team should get some type of bruiser like Artanis or Sonya. Getting matched with no front line at all vs. a comp with Varian just is hilarious to witness, such a stomp.
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On June 12 2017 19:45 farvacola wrote: QM, on the other hand, seems to deteriorate on a daily basis. I keep getting placed into games that are literally impossible to win (abathur, lili, sgt hammer, lucio and me randoming into Medivh has happened multiple times now). It is....frustrating, to put it one way lol.
Well unfortunately I dont ever expect QM to have regular decent team comps matching, unless you're 4-5 players per party. Remove a draft completely, put bunch of random people together that pre-picked a heroe, and most of the time the comps will be sub par and weird, but it's better than it's been in the past at the very least.
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Dunno, I feel that if I pick an assassin QM likes to throw me into a 4 assassin 1 specialist team. against a team that is similar wtf.
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I think you guys have the wrong mindset for playing QM.
It's just quick "fun". No tryharding
I've won with some ridiculously bad comps and lost with some decent comps. Just play your best with the hero of your chosing and enjoy... If you can't enjoy, then QM is just not for you
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On June 13 2017 18:21 Harris1st wrote:I think you guys have the wrong mindset for playing QM. It's just quick "fun". No tryharding I've won with some ridiculously bad comps and lost with some decent comps. Just play your best with the hero of your chosing and enjoy... If you can't enjoy, then QM is just not for you
Yea, QM is for when you just want to play/train that 1 hero/combo regardless of the outcome. It's for shits and giggles or training. You have to adjust your mindset when going in: you *know* it's likely going to be a shitfest before you queue, so just go with it (which of course doesn't mean "be a throwing assclown"). The only thing which annoys me in QM are 4 or 5 man stacks with premade try-hard comps. I mean pfff really. When my friends and I do QM we always just pick whatever, (we mostly do make sure to have at least 1 warrior and a sup) so we often go up against other larger pre-made teams. When they do have an actual thought out comp it can get annoying, but on the other hand when we dismantle them anyway it's pretty satisfying.
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On June 13 2017 17:06 disformation wrote: Dunno, I feel that if I pick an assassin QM likes to throw me into a 4 assassin 1 specialist team. against a team that is similar wtf.
That's because everyone always wants to play assassins, and not enough people queue as sups and tanks. Can't put a sup on your team when there aren't any in queue. The enemy team having a similar comp is a feature of the matchmaking engine. It's to ensure matches are as even as possible.
All assassin matches tend to be pretty fun and volatile anyway, so I never mind that in QM.
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Funny thing that I've picked up though is that whenever I play tank or support, there seems to be a larger than usual chance of my team either lacking damage or lacking players who know how to dish it out properly (and not yolo doing it). Granted, nabbing someone is always fun but I do still so enjoy saving a teammate as a support or tank. Only for them to start hating of course when they yolo in and you don't yolo with them. Tank and Support can be such ungrateful jobs sometimes.
I do find it amusing when I'm peeling like crazy for my team only to have some random assassin whining that I'm not diving into the enemy team (leaving our backline completely open). Assassins are the most straight forward to play in QM though, you just try to kill enemy heroes (the hero itself can still be complex as all hell). Heroes with self-sustain such as Gul'Dan tend to do better in QM as well as they can end up in games with no healer. Same for Leoric, Thrall and a few others. Varian and Sylvanas seem to be the biggest QM breakers as Varian can be a tank with no tank on the other side and Sylvanas allows any victory to escalate into pushing forts.
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Varian, Tyrande, and Tassadar are the reason for QM being so broken imo. The system really can't handle this group of in-betweeners which often leaves one team with a role filled which the other team then entirely lacks leading to rather one-sided matches.
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On June 13 2017 19:45 Ghostcom wrote: Varian, Tyrande, and Tassadar are the reason for QM being so broken imo. The system really can't handle this group of in-betweeners which often leaves one team with a role filled which the other team then entirely lacks leading to rather one-sided matches. It's really amusing getting a Tass when the enemy has Malf... Usually if I am playing Varian and the enemy team has no tank I just go yolo twin blades...
But most of the time both teams will get a Varian or Tyrande... it's just Tass that's utter cancer
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Zarya and Medivh can fall under the same category though, providing shields/mitigation when the other team has none.
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Right now Tyrande, Medivh, Tassadar, Zarya and Abathur are in the same group for Quick match match making.
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What about D.Va? Out of all the Warriors that are ignoring the warriors-on-both-sides rule, it's almost always her. Wonder why Abathur is in that list. Depending on map and team comp he can be a detriment rather than an advantage to the team. And that is excluding player skill on him.
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DVa isn't being matched as a warrior and neither is Varian, though the devs said they are going to change Varian to warrior for QM in the future.
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On June 12 2017 17:11 sM.Zik wrote: Tbh for a game of 5 players per team I feel like hots has a good matchmaking, at least since the last couple of seasons. Always took me between 45 to 75 games (from 1st placement) to get Master league. Pretty consistent if you ask me. Also, most people in my friend list that I know well enough are in the division that I feel they belong.. Seriously if you're "stuck" in gold/plat or whatever, it's time to face the truth and focus on improving your weak points instead of blaming matchmakin/teamates. Everyone loses games because of others, you rank up over time by not being the player that loses the game.
I want to agree with this so badly, but for some crazy reason anytime I play at plat 2 I consistently wreck, but it's not just ME who is wrecking my whole team usually is just on point and doing their jobs. I can't figure it out, but on my promotion game to plat 1 I lose almost every single time even if I don't feed, it almost always is mega toxic team mates that spend more time picking out others mistakes and then start feeding/raging/griefing afterwards.
Like, idk what the difference between rank 2 and 1 is, but the level of toxicity/cancer on the promotion games is ridiculous.
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Promotion games just add stress. You want to advance so badly (especially if it's advancement to another league) that any slip-ups feel a lot worse than they might be. On top of that, promotion force a situation where you have to win two games in a row. The one to get into a promotion game and then the promotion game itself. Winning those two in a row can be challenging with HL being random and toxic at times.
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On June 14 2017 04:58 jpg06051992 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2017 17:11 sM.Zik wrote: Tbh for a game of 5 players per team I feel like hots has a good matchmaking, at least since the last couple of seasons. Always took me between 45 to 75 games (from 1st placement) to get Master league. Pretty consistent if you ask me. Also, most people in my friend list that I know well enough are in the division that I feel they belong.. Seriously if you're "stuck" in gold/plat or whatever, it's time to face the truth and focus on improving your weak points instead of blaming matchmakin/teamates. Everyone loses games because of others, you rank up over time by not being the player that loses the game. I want to agree with this so badly, but for some crazy reason anytime I play at plat 2 I consistently wreck, but it's not just ME who is wrecking my whole team usually is just on point and doing their jobs. I can't figure it out, but on my promotion game to plat 1 I lose almost every single time even if I don't feed, it almost always is mega toxic team mates that spend more time picking out others mistakes and then start feeding/raging/griefing afterwards. Like, idk what the difference between rank 2 and 1 is, but the level of toxicity/cancer on the promotion games is ridiculous.
Could it be that people behave when things are going well but complain if things start going south? Moreover, could it be stress since the promotion game for you and others (maybe facing each other) might lead to people wanting to win so badly they become dumb?
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Murky stealth isn't working with the fake eggs talent at level 1. tooltip even says "0" seconds.
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What do people think of the new marker indicating when heroes will die from a heroic such as go for the throat?
I am personally rather vehemently against it as it seems to simply dumb the game down.
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Hasn't that functionality always been in the game for Greymane at least? I remember being confused about it when Greymane first came out.
I don't mind it for Go for the Throat at least, but I'd prefer it not become a routinely incorporated thing.
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what are is your experience with Malthael so far? I do like his playstyle a lot. Doens't seem to broken which is a good thing.
Good sustain, decent mobility, good damage, good waveclear, vuln to CC seems fair enough
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I played a game where I just bullied him constantly with Erik, which was hilarious.
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On June 14 2017 21:40 ThomasjServo wrote: Hasn't that functionality always been in the game for Greymane at least? I remember being confused about it when Greymane first came out.
I don't mind it for Go for the Throat at least, but I'd prefer it not become a routinely incorporated thing.
You are right it has been in there for Go for the Throat - what they have done is simply replace it with a generic marker and expanded it to Last Rites. My gripe in this instance was the expansion of the concept to more heroes. I understand the argument that they want to treat heroics with a "on kill do X theme" the same, but in that case why not give Nova's triple-tap the same treatment (or does she have a marker which I'm unaware of)? Personally I think the marker shouldn't exist in the first place, but I recognize that is just my opinion.
EDIT: Sorry for the ninja edit - I found the same post and learned something new today
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On June 14 2017 22:31 Ghostcom wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2017 21:40 ThomasjServo wrote: Hasn't that functionality always been in the game for Greymane at least? I remember being confused about it when Greymane first came out.
I don't mind it for Go for the Throat at least, but I'd prefer it not become a routinely incorporated thing. I'm fairly certain it's a new feature they are implementing this patch specifically for Go for the Throat and Malthael's Last Rites heroic. I don't think I've ever seen a marker when taking Go for the Throat, but my Greymane is lvl 7 so not exactly my most played hero. Maybe they updated the mark for Greymane to be more pronounced but I found a thread from a year ago confirming its there. Malthael's is just there to let you know you're super boned.
I can see it being helpful from a support standpoint if you have a decent one on your team, but I appreciate your sentiments.
https://www.reddit.com/r/heroesofthestorm/comments/40rz2t/helpful_information_for_greymane/
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On June 14 2017 21:47 Harris1st wrote: what are is your experience with Malthael so far? I do like his playstyle a lot. Doens't seem to broken which is a good thing.
Good sustain, decent mobility, good damage, good waveclear, vuln to CC seems fair enough
Only one game so far and QM have me a horrible comp but I did learn a few things. He has to commit to a fight hard. Kerrigan level hard. It is very easy for the enemy team to collapse on you and kill you. I tried the blow up build first where you go W talents on 1 and 7 and get Last Rites. Sadly the enemy team had a good Kharazim who countered all my damage very effectively. Palm is a complete hard counter to Last Rites, which I should've expected. I'll try the AoE build next and also Memento Mori and see how those go. He does feel fun but landing your E so you can W to your target is critical.
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On June 15 2017 15:53 Thezzy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2017 21:47 Harris1st wrote: what are is your experience with Malthael so far? I do like his playstyle a lot. Doens't seem to broken which is a good thing.
Good sustain, decent mobility, good damage, good waveclear, vuln to CC seems fair enough landing your E so you can W to your target is critical.
This. Never before has a hero been so reliant on hitting a single ability. You need to get your trait on people so you can self heal/close to them, and he doesn't have mobility by himself, so that E is absolutely pivotal.
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On June 15 2017 21:09 Larkin wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2017 15:53 Thezzy wrote:On June 14 2017 21:47 Harris1st wrote: what are is your experience with Malthael so far? I do like his playstyle a lot. Doens't seem to broken which is a good thing.
Good sustain, decent mobility, good damage, good waveclear, vuln to CC seems fair enough landing your E so you can W to your target is critical. This. Never before has a hero been so reliant on hitting a single ability. You need to get your trait on people so you can self heal/close to them, and he doesn't have mobility by himself, so that E is absolutely pivotal.
Thats why I like the E quest at 4. CD reduction is very important. I also like the fact that you can solo camps quite easily. IMO he feels more like a spec who can push lanes, make camps and has a decent 1v1 potential. In teamfights you can "poke" with E and Q and if theres an opening go for the kill with W and R
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I think the E talent on 4 is going to be almost mandatory. I was up against a Hammer and finishing the quest was easy. Same thing will likely apply against Heroes such as Chen when drinking, Rexxar with Misha and anything with clones/duplicates.
Whilst I do like the trait talent on 4 (that your trait lasts for 6 seconds instead of 4), your E determines everything. The extra range and cooldown reduction makes it considerably easier to hit something and allow you to get into the action. Hopefully staying alive once you jump in is a bit easier than what I experienced in my first game with him (had a Gazlowe and Samuro and no frontline). I think he might also be a bit stronger against multi-heroes like Vikings and Rexxar provided you get the mark on them.
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I feel like he starts weak and gets absolutely bonkers with levels.
Early game I can out-burst him, dodge his one important slow skillshot, and his burn damage isn't horrid. Lategame just holy shit. That ult-aura proccing a 6 second debuff on everyone that doubles in effectiveness after a few seconds... Combined with his armor talent means in any lategame teamfight he's got 45 armor... And then the ability to heal himself for so much. And if you walk out of a fight with the enhanced burn on you that's anywhere from 15 to 30% of your max HP which is GOING to burn off as you run...
I'm still relatively new to the game but every time the enemy team has a Malth I feel like he turns into an unstoppable monster late. Maybe with a lot of hard CC and spell damage burst you can blow him up, but holy hell he's nuts lategame.
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The armor talent on 13 is only physical armor so it only reduces AA but it's still quite strong. Usually there is at least one AA hero on the enemy team so it should help there. The only issue with going for a trait build is no E quest on 4, making it harder to land your trait on someone and W to them.
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New Thrall seems very strong. There is the variation of the old default build which is
1) Echo of the Elements 4) Mana Tide 7) Follow Through 10) Sunder/EQ 13) Grace of Air or Frostwolf's Grace(this procs follow through when you use it and heal on demand every 15 seconds) 16) Tempest Fury 20) Wind Rush
Then there is Rich's current favorite quest filled build:
1) Crash Lightning (Rich: Don't need to max out the quest, skill is good damage it at around 20 stacks) 4) Frostwolf Pack. This can be weak if you can't stack without dying successfully or miss. Can't use Feral Spirit for wave clear or to check bushes until the quest is done. 7) Maelstrom Weapon 10) Sunder 13) Frostwolf 's Grace 16) Alpha Wolf 20) Wind Rush
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
On June 15 2017 22:42 Haemonculus wrote: I feel like he starts weak and gets absolutely bonkers with levels.
Early game I can out-burst him, dodge his one important slow skillshot, and his burn damage isn't horrid. Lategame just holy shit. That ult-aura proccing a 6 second debuff on everyone that doubles in effectiveness after a few seconds... Combined with his armor talent means in any lategame teamfight he's got 45 armor... And then the ability to heal himself for so much. And if you walk out of a fight with the enhanced burn on you that's anywhere from 15 to 30% of your max HP which is GOING to burn off as you run...
I'm still relatively new to the game but every time the enemy team has a Malth I feel like he turns into an unstoppable monster late. Maybe with a lot of hard CC and spell damage burst you can blow him up, but holy hell he's nuts lategame.
Well, I've played a few games yesterday and in those where the player was competent, both Malthaels on both teams had 2x more hero damage than anyone else later in the game.
Also, the damage he does to immortals is DISGUSTING. I was playing Greymane and he made my dps look insignificant.
Was pretty easy to bully the enemy Malthael in lane though. You just auto him at range until he dies or goes to heal, dodging his occasional Very slow wave of fog.
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On June 15 2017 23:13 karazax wrote: New Thrall seems very strong. There is the variation of the old default build which is
1) Echo of the Elements 4) Mana Tide 7) Follow Through 10) Sunder/EQ 13) Grace of Air or Frostwolf's Grace(this procs follow through when you use it and heal on demand every 15 seconds) 16) Tempest Fury 20) Wind Rush
Then there is Rich's current favorite quest filled build:
1) Crash Lightning (Rich: Don't need to max out the quest, skill is good damage it at around 20 stacks) 4) Frostwolf Pack. This can be weak if you can't stack without dying successfully or miss. Can't use Feral Spirit for wave clear or to check bushes until the quest is done. 7) Maelstrom Weapon 10) Sunder 13) Frostwolf 's Grace 16) Alpha Wolf 20) Wind Rush
Dude I've been running pretty much an old school build (chain lightning mana talent on level 1 is still a go to imo because he is as mana hungry as ever) but run Feral Resilience for his level 4 talent, the 75 physical armor that you get with the stun allows you to dive hard very safely and it is borderline broken vs. AA heavy teams. Add to that Maelstrom Weapon, get your 40 stacks so you get the Wind Fury and passive movement speed bonus and they have officially turned Thrall into a monster.
I was trying mana tide on level 4 for a bit but honestly the mana regen you get seems a bit weak for requiring 4 stacks to proc, it's alot of mana invested simply to proc it so I wasn't having the best of success with it. I want to try the Pack at 4 but it's a very high risk/high reward talent so you just have to trust in yourself and have a team that can peel for you. The reward is ludicrously strong though once you get the 7, like wow, so powerful. I usually aim for consistency though so I have to go with Resilience, it's just soooo strong.
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Isn't it only 50 physical resistance on Feral Resilience? It's a good option either way, but I still hate how useless block stacks are in games with Genji, D.va...
Also,Frostwolf's Grace is still bugged and increases all your Frostwolf Resilience by 50%, on top of activating manatide and Follow Through. It seems simply stronger than Grace of Air until it's fixed.
And, I don't think EQ is worth it anymore unless you plan to get the level 20 upgrade, or have a stronger combo (maybe Apocalypse). Lots of characters are mobile enough to get out these days, and the lowered healing hurts (until you get Frostwolf's Grace, at least).
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Echo of the Elements at 1 reduces your mana costs on chain lightning by 20 after you finish it and between that and mana tide I never had any mana issues with that build. As far as I can tell it restores mana and reduces cooldown every time you do damage with an ability and get a frostwolf resilience stack, not just when you get 5 stacks and heal. Go to try mode and set to lvl 20 with quest complete and you can spam every basic ability and be near full mana by the time the cool downs are up. It's really hard to even get below 50% mana if your chain lightning is hitting multiple targets. mana tide is also nice for the cool down reduction on basic abilities with that build.
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I am back in love with Green Jesus!! Almost all games top damage, incedible sustain and laning potential, TF turnarounds due to flanking and sundering. LOOOOVEEEE IT
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Kinda torn between Maelstrom Weapon (for the potential movespeed quest) vs Follow Through. I think depends on how realistically often you're going to be building stacks for quest on enemy heroes or if you took double lightning. Double Chain Lightning Gives you more Follow Through Damage from casting Chain Twice. Same goes on if you took Feral Wolves and Completed the Quest. 50% shorter wolf cd = more follow through uptime. Grace also provides "dps" with follow through since you can activate it to proc Follow Through again. Question is really that does 40/40 Maelstrom Weapon give more burst than a properly built Follow Through setup, I assume you also need to try and account for Maelstrom's Movement Speed bonus somehow. Also Mana Tide is the only thing that reduces Wind Fury's cooldown which gives you more burst opportunities. My biggest decision in games mostly is "can I reliably stack feral quest?" (do they have a melee ball) or do I want Mana Tide for the CDR and play it safe.
Most of the time if I'm taking Feral Quest, I'll be taking Alpha Wolf for the longer snare duration. Even if I don't really need its tank shred damage bonus, I find immobilizing melee liners or catching a support with it is worth the extra root time vs more Windfury Damage. Sorta wish they made Alpha Wolf's HP Shred just passive all the time, so Thrall had a little bit more impact without Windfury up. Could have maybe legit given Nexus Blades viability @ 20, since he'd be able to slow/chase someone and shred them.
Edit: If you take Maelstrom Weapon, you should /always/ be going for the 3x Windfury end hit. (It adds 3 stacks to Maelstrom) so you effectively get 6 stacks per burst instead of 3. You're also probably going for the Windfury Teleport talent @ 20, since it yet again lets you build stacks out of control.
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Rich's most recent favored Thrall build has been
- Echo of Elements
- Frostwolf Pack
- Follow Through
- Sunder
- Frostwolf's Grace
- Alpha Wolf
- Wind Rush
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On June 23 2017 20:06 Limitality wrote: You're also probably going for the Windfury Teleport talent @ 20, since it yet again lets you build stacks out of control. You take Bolt on Thrall always, regardless of the game, your talents or enemy compostion. Earthen Shield can be sometimes viable, but overwhelming majority of the time you can take it, Bolt is still better.
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On June 24 2017 01:59 Ej_ wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2017 20:06 Limitality wrote: You're also probably going for the Windfury Teleport talent @ 20, since it yet again lets you build stacks out of control. You take Bolt on Thrall always, regardless of the game, your talents or enemy compostion. Earthen Shield can be sometimes viable, but overwhelming majority of the time you can take it, Bolt is still better.
What Bolt? Kappa
Earthern Shields is great for a teamfight combo, which is pretty much what Thrall is for, bolt isn't needed
User was warned for this post
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In general everything can work, but on higher level bolt is pretty much the only thing that matters.
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On June 24 2017 23:41 Ramiz1989 wrote: In general everything can work, but on higher level bolt is pretty much the only thing that matters.
In most cases yes but with Thrall I really don't think that's the case if you go Earthquake. You're basically all in on the fight anyway and the 20 upgrade helps win fights hard. You build it to crush that 20 fight and then you just win the game. Bolt is basically only going to give you an escape, and if you have to escape with Thrall, you've probably already lost. It's still probably the best choice for Sunder builds, though, and I like the added chase potential of the windfury added to it. But it's not a 100% must take.
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On June 25 2017 02:15 Larkin wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2017 23:41 Ramiz1989 wrote: In general everything can work, but on higher level bolt is pretty much the only thing that matters. In most cases yes but with Thrall I really don't think that's the case if you go Earthquake. You're basically all in on the fight anyway and the 20 upgrade helps win fights hard. You build it to crush that 20 fight and then you just win the game. Bolt is basically only going to give you an escape, and if you have to escape with Thrall, you've probably already lost. It's still probably the best choice for Sunder builds, though, and I like the added chase potential of the windfury added to it. But it's not a 100% must take. Not only for escape, in fact the new that gives you Wind Fury is even better being used aggressively. Really depends from game to game, map, your and enemy composition.
If they don't have a team where you would need to play too conservative, you can blink in middle of them and use EQ, focus down 1 ranged assassin with WF, use WF again and completely destroy him, or you can melt even tanks with double WF combo.
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On June 26 2017 02:23 Ramiz1989 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2017 02:15 Larkin wrote:On June 24 2017 23:41 Ramiz1989 wrote: In general everything can work, but on higher level bolt is pretty much the only thing that matters. In most cases yes but with Thrall I really don't think that's the case if you go Earthquake. You're basically all in on the fight anyway and the 20 upgrade helps win fights hard. You build it to crush that 20 fight and then you just win the game. Bolt is basically only going to give you an escape, and if you have to escape with Thrall, you've probably already lost. It's still probably the best choice for Sunder builds, though, and I like the added chase potential of the windfury added to it. But it's not a 100% must take. Not only for escape, in fact the new that gives you Wind Fury is even better being used aggressively. Really depends from game to game, map, your and enemy composition. If they don't have a team where you would need to play too conservative, you can blink in middle of them and use EQ, focus down 1 ranged assassin with WF, use WF again and completely destroy him, or you can melt even tanks with double WF combo.
Yes, that is true. I was thinking of the possibility of using blink EQ or blink Sunder on the backline with a Thrall/Medivh/Diablo comp.
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Math wise you need crazy free stacking for MW to catch up to Follow Through, and even then that relies on long fights post-16. The only question with regards to MW is how much damage is worth giving up for the MS bonus. Ancestral Wrath is actually good and competitive if you're dropping it on a tank hero, and if you can get a second use in a fight (unlikely) it blows every other talent on the tier out of the water
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I had to check that they were buffing a talent to compete with masters touch on medivh. That is funny.
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I don't think I've ever seen another talent pick on 7 for Medivh. Master's Touch is actually at 100% according to HotsLogs. Why not just make it baseline and adjust accordingly.
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Because they're terrified of touching medivh, the hero is in a perfect spot talents aside which they've lucked into and are just likely to mess him up if they tinker at all.
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United States4883 Posts
On June 29 2017 04:00 Immersion_ wrote: Because they're terrified of touching medivh, the hero is in a perfect spot talents aside which they've lucked into and are just likely to mess him up if they tinker at all.
Didn't stop them from completely reworking Valla ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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I miss the old Discipline Valla build. 45% self heal, stacks that took ages to remove completely and you had Nexus Frenzy at 20 for both increased attack range AND attack speed. You could solo a boss or the core with ease. A few shots against an enemy and you regained half your health bar. Not always practical but so much fun to play. It was hilarious when Illidan tried to solo me when I had max discipline stacks and he lost. He must've wondered what the hell was going on. Oh well. Good times.
And just making Master's Touch baseline and tweaking it a bit wouldn't rework him that much, at the very least it would actually open up his level 7 talent tier.
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Atleast the Valla rework didn't turn her into a complete one trick. Like most other reworks did >.>.
So who is the WoW villian most dont care about with a small but vocal fanbase ? Just wondering who the next hero will be after Malthael and Stukov.
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He looks so goofy, I love it
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1. I love Stukov. 2. I would never have expected him to be a Support. 3. Massive Shove looks HILARIOUS. Unlimited range is just lmao.
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I have no words how awesome this is.
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I legit lol'd at the MASSIVE shove.
I'm glad he does not have an infested Terran mechanic, gives me hope for an infestor based hero down the line.
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that shove screams for bugs and hillarious moments. Especially with Stitches or Dehaka involved. And I am so gonna stay away from his heals :x
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What was that game where you were partially infected with this black, growth kind of thing and could evolve superpowers? The military was after you and it was kind of open worldy. He reminds me of it, and I can't think of the name. Would have been like 2008 or 9 that it came out I think
EDIT: Prototype. That is what he reminds me of.
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I think Paintrain might be back in action. Draft Stukov, ban Maelthas and go to town.
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He looks to be so much fun. His ultimates especially. And I also got a Prototype buzz from him and I've played both Prototype games.
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Looked to be a good addition to the game till i saw his heroic abilties. They look so out of place in hots. Looks to be terrible boring to play against.
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On July 01 2017 22:38 Foxxan wrote: Looked to be a good addition to the game till i saw his heroic abilties. They look so out of place in hots. Looks to be terrible boring to play against.
I'm super interested to see how that giant shove gets affected by a Dehaka tongue or a Stitches hook.
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stitches hook will stun the target for the entirity of the shove :x and pull it to stitches. Dehakas tongue will break after after a few seconds of pulling.
the shove doesn't seem fast enough to make heroes like Illidan fly after the target for to long. But no one will take this ult anyway, because the other one is mandatory for survival. Since Stukov is the same as Malv, just easier to pull of.
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The shove will be too situational I think, the other is effectively a smaller gust in 3 segments, which means one cleanse might not last long enough to ignore all 3 of them. If you have a lot of stun/root though, the shove might be something if you can align yourself properly. Because it does take someone completely out of the fight if they're shoved a whole lane back. Say with Xul's Bone Prison and then having Stukov position himself just right and have the target pushed so far back it's a 4v5 for the rest of the teamfight. Cleanse probably denies it outright though.
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This Pull Party Brawl is hilarious
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On July 03 2017 00:36 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:This Pull Party Brawl is hilarious
It's just a poor copy of Pudge Wars. You can play on WC3 or DotA2 customs whenever you want.
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On July 03 2017 00:38 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2017 00:36 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:This Pull Party Brawl is hilarious It's just a poor copy of Pudge Wars. You can play on WC3 or DotA2 customs whenever you want.
I've played neither of those, and three-minute fun brawls are more interesting to me than some of the past brawls that took eight times longer.
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Didn't realize Malthael can kill the Immortal with a few hits. It is funny since they removed strong objective counters just recently.
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Welcome back xul, i missed you baby. Cant wait for the patch now.
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The attack speed talent for Xul at 13 is insanely fast. Apparently Stukov is bugged and getting one of his level 4 quest talents by default at level 1 completed.
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Stukov looks to be a lot of fun. I think he can get crazy heal numbers out once the heal spreads and is detonated. With the level 7 talent you could detonate every time the heal comes off cooldown.
Shove is funny, though the 20 second cooldown actually gives it some merit as the other one has an 80 second cooldown. His E is mana free waveclear though it doesn't kill the wave very fast. Any CC on a target that is in the E is going to be hurting bad.
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Finally a support that looks fun again!!
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Does detonating the virus behave at all like an, "Oh Shit," button or is it more like a massive Malfurion heal?
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On July 07 2017 00:04 ThomasjServo wrote: Does detonating the virus behave at all like an, "Oh Shit," button or is it more like a massive Malfurion heal?
It is insta heal so nothing like Malf.. so A? I think. I have only played against bots.
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Interesting. I'll be curious to see how he pans out at higher levels. Watching his preview I got the sense if you were decent you could easily keep up with solo healers, but I get the sense he'll be a double support kind of guy.
Just my impression though, I haven't logged into the PTR.
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From what I saw in Test Mode, at level 20 his detonate heal is 1200 per virus. So if that spreads to everyone it's a 6k heal. The detonate has a 16 second cooldown, the heal ability itself is 10 seconds.
With talents though, you can lower detonate to 5 seconds by hitting just one enemy hero with the other virus and then detonating it. So in a teamfight you use the heal, let it spread, then hit an enemy hero with the other virus and then detonate.
There is also a 50% detonate heal bonus talent. That would up it to 1800 per virus at lvl 20. If all allied heroes have it you could potentially have a 9k heal on a 10 second cooldown and that's just the detonate itself.
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
So the meta now is to open a texture file, swap a few colors, Save As another color variation for an existing skin and sell that for money?
Well, should have known better after they announced Destiny through the Blizzard launcher.
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On July 07 2017 19:06 BluzMan wrote: So the meta now is to open a texture file, swap a few colors, Save As another color variation for an existing skin and sell that for money?
Well, should have known better after they announced Destiny through the Blizzard launcher. ...what
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Palette swaps have always been different hero skins. Before 2.0 they just happened to be grouped as part of distinct skins, but now you could get any single one of them for free via loot chests. Seems like a fair trade. It's only less effective if you want all the color variations of a single skin but I think most players will generally just want one specific skin and color palette anyway.
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
On July 07 2017 20:53 Ej_ wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2017 19:06 BluzMan wrote: So the meta now is to open a texture file, swap a few colors, Save As another color variation for an existing skin and sell that for money?
Well, should have known better after they announced Destiny through the Blizzard launcher. ...what
Ever since the dawn of hots each skin had 3 color palette variations. You bought the skin, and all the variations became available instantly. Since 2.0, however, each skin variation is sold as a separate skin, but they were still being released in batches of 3.
Last patch though there came skins with 5+ variations and now Blizzard just tries to market new variations for existing skins as new content. This is just lazy in the best case.
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They changed how you obtain skins. So instead of a tripple pack of the same skin. You can only get 2 for the same price. But you can also just get one variation for half the price. Or you can get them for a random chance ... or even for free.
They also have to do portraits and sprays and banners now. So it was to be expected that there will be less skins coming out. So its nice that they add more color options instead.
Of course having palettes would still be cooler. But that would be even lazier on Blizzards part and more expensive for us.
Also they dont want you to buy skins, they want you to buy lootboxes ;P .
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Really like new Tassadar, he has multiple talent choices at every level past 4 which is definitely a big improvement and his playstyle feels more fun too.
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On July 08 2017 18:56 Ej_ wrote: Really like new Tassadar, he has multiple talent choices at every level past 4 which is definitely a big improvement and his playstyle feels more fun too.
I fucking hate him. He just stands there in lane lazering you, just not giving a fuck and there's nothing you can do to him, unless you dedicate two man or your solo laner too him. Which then leaves another lane open ...
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On July 13 2017 20:41 Thax wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2017 18:56 Ej_ wrote: Really like new Tassadar, he has multiple talent choices at every level past 4 which is definitely a big improvement and his playstyle feels more fun too. I fucking hate him. He just stands there in lane lazering you, just not giving a fuck and there's nothing you can do to him, unless you dedicate two man or your solo laner too him. Which then leaves another lane open ... *laughs in Protoss*
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