[Patch 1.0.0.139: Spectator Mode] General Discussion - Pag…
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Mogwai
United States13274 Posts
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TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
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Mogwai
United States13274 Posts
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TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
The only way I see E being a problem in a level 2 gank is if he hits his q first, or if you're really overextended and can't just walk away from him yourself. | ||
gtrsrs
United States9109 Posts
let's not destroy his rosy version of lol | ||
Slaughter
United States20249 Posts
On May 22 2012 04:35 jcarlsoniv wrote: Pretty much this. Once you learn how to lane when the enemy has Shaco, it's super easy, and he falls off so hard late. I'd much rather play mid with an enemy Shaco than Naut or Ali This so much lol. Even when he is fed late he is underwhelming and blows up quick. I just had a game where the 1st pick said ban shaco or morg? I said morg as long as people know how to lane with a shaco so he banned morg and asdf bitching from our top renek. Shaco got fed that game cause its 1300 elo as well and we still won late because I fucking carried as Karthus. lol his specialty is demoralizing the other team into rage quitting. | ||
TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
On May 22 2012 05:08 gtrsrs wrote: in twotoneterran's world, everyone has complete map vision and perfect map awareness, there is no fog of war, and his enemy is always pushing to his tower where he can last hit safely let's not destroy his rosy version of lol Oh look, a stupid ad hominem that doesn't even begin to take into account the premise of the argument. We're talking about specifically level 2 ganks and if you're pushing at level 1 (when they're level 2 ganking) when the enemy team has shaco or Lee sin jungling, then you're stupid. Lee Sin is WAY better than Shaco in general, I'm talking specifically level 2 ganks. The ones that come at 2:10~2:30. Do you always push your lane first thing when you know they have a jungler who ganks at level 2? | ||
Mogwai
United States13274 Posts
On May 22 2012 05:03 TwoToneTerran wrote: "Just runs at you" is akin to a Shyvanna gank, only he doesn't even run at you fast. The range on E is really low, how do you get caught by his e in a gank? The counter is literally to walk the other way. Atleast shaco has a blink that sets up red buff + exhaust and a way to cut off your escape. Lee's level 2 is only bullshit in the same way all level 2 ganks are bullshit because they put you way behind having to avoid them. The only way I see E being a problem in a level 2 gank is if he hits his q first, or if you're really overextended and can't just walk away from him yourself. What? Shyvanna gets to you and uhhh, I guess exhausts you, then you flash and she goes, "well shit" and goes back in the jungle where she belongs. Lee gets to you, Exhausts, hits E, you flash, he follows your flash with Q Q and kills you. Using his Q to get on top of you at the begining of the gank isn't even that strong, just running at them is a stronger way to bait your flash and guarantee his Q hits. | ||
jcarlsoniv
United States27922 Posts
On May 22 2012 05:11 TwoToneTerran wrote: Oh look, a stupid ad hominem that doesn't even begin to take into account the premise of the argument. We're talking about specifically level 2 ganks and if you're pushing at level 1 (when they're level 2 ganking) when the enemy team has shaco or Lee sin jungling, then you're stupid. Lee Sin is WAY better than Shaco in general, I'm talking specifically level 2 ganks. The ones that come at 2:10~2:30. Do you always push your lane first thing when you know they have a jungler who ganks at level 2? From Smash's point of view, I assume he's talking top lane. Lvl 2 ganks top are just retarded. I don't have much trouble vs Lee in mid, but just because of the nature of top lane, Lee's lvl 2 ganks are dominant. | ||
Alaric
France45622 Posts
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TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
On May 22 2012 05:15 Mogwai wrote: What? Shyvanna gets to you and uhhh, I guess exhausts you, then you flash and she goes, "well shit" and goes back in the jungle where she belongs. Lee gets to you, Exhausts, hits E, you flash, he follows your flash with Q Q and kills you. Using his Q to get on top of you at the begining of the gank isn't even that strong, just running at them is a stronger way to bait your flash and guarantee his Q hits. My point is how do you get caught by someone just running at you? The range on his E is awful. Who let's Lee sin walk up to within 350 range of them? If he gets exhaust up you flash then and there and you're practically at your tower already. I get this is MUCH more dangerous in a pushed lane which is why I qualified by saying anytime after level 2 I'm more scared of Lee. At level 2 Shaco blinks behind you most of the time and can box your retreat and exhaust you. I understand if you're against a lane with a level 1 cc like Ryze that it might be stronger since he can force it on you, but I seriously don't see how Lee Sin is getting within 350 range of you with those early ganks where neither lane is really pushing. Any jungler who opens with exhaust will force your flash and at that point you're generally free unless you're getting camped. I figure if Lee starts boots and you didn't this could be a different situation but in general Lee's level 2 does not seem that scary to me. I wouldn't even come close to putting it in the same realm of pain as Alistar and Naut. Maybe I've just been watching too many Saint streams and he's driven it into my skull that Lee's level 2 ganks are crap and I'm trying to qualify it with my meager 1600~ experiences. | ||
gtrsrs
United States9109 Posts
On May 22 2012 05:20 TwoToneTerran wrote: My point is how do you get caught by someone just running at you? The range on his E is awful. Who let's Lee sin walk up to within 350 range of them? If he gets exhaust up you flash then and there and you're practically at your tower already. I get this is MUCH more dangerous in a pushed lane which is why I qualified by saying anytime after level 2 I'm more scared of Lee. At level 2 Shaco blinks behind you most of the time and can box your retreat and exhaust you. I understand if you're against a lane with a level 1 cc like Ryze that it might be stronger since he can force it on you, but I seriously don't see how Lee Sin is getting within 350 range of you with those early ganks where neither lane is really pushing. I figure if Lee starts boots and you didn't this could be a different situation but in general Lee's level 2 does not seem that scary to me. I wouldn't even come close to putting it in the same realm of pain as Alistar and Naut. if you go to lane and your opponent is late, and you take your "free" cs because he's missing, you've already pushed the lane enough for a lee to walk up and gank you for free. either you take your free cs while you can or you zone yourself when there's no enemy even in the lane. any time you go to commit/harass/take a cs that's too extended, lee has a window to walk up and E you | ||
RoieTRS
United States2569 Posts
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TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
On May 22 2012 05:23 gtrsrs wrote: if you go to lane and your opponent is late, and you take your "free" cs because he's missing, you've already pushed the lane enough for a lee to walk up and gank you for free. either you take your free cs while you can or you zone yourself when there's no enemy even in the lane. any time you go to commit/harass/take a cs that's too extended, lee has a window to walk up and E you I will always give up that CS and just take the XP when I know Lee's at red and I'm possibly his first gank target in top lane. Literally every single level 2 gank has this same possibility. Exhaust Cleaver mundo will always force your flash but that should generally save you. I just don't see how one short range modest slow makes the difference when other dudes will blink and apply red buff and start actually hurting you. | ||
Mogwai
United States13274 Posts
On May 22 2012 05:20 TwoToneTerran wrote: My point is how do you get caught by someone just running at you? The range on his E is awful. Who let's Lee sin walk up to within 350 range of them? If he gets exhaust up you flash then and there and you're practically at your tower already. I get this is MUCH more dangerous in a pushed lane which is why I qualified by saying anytime after level 2 I'm more scared of Lee. At level 2 Shaco blinks behind you most of the time and can box your retreat and exhaust you. I understand if you're against a lane with a level 1 cc like Ryze that it might be stronger since he can force it on you, but I seriously don't see how Lee Sin is getting within 350 range of you with those early ganks where neither lane is really pushing. I figure if Lee starts boots and you didn't this could be a different situation but in general Lee's level 2 does not seem that scary to me. I wouldn't even come close to putting it in the same realm of pain as Alistar and Naut. At top lane. You go to the middle of the lane to last hit a melee minion. You have boots, Lee has boots. He runs out of the bush at you. You have no route back to tower that doesn't put you within exhaust range of Lee, if you flash as soon as he exhausts, it doesn't matter, he just Qs your exhausted ass, Es, slows you up and you die to him and your lane opponent. I mean, sure, his mid gank @ 2 is nothing special, but running at someone at top lane when they go for a last hit is fucking brutal and it's laughable that you think flashing will get you back to the tower somehow. | ||
TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
If Shaco does the exact same thing then he's literally behind you, with a box to your only retreat path even if you flash, while you're exhausted, hitting you with red buff. | ||
jcarlsoniv
United States27922 Posts
On May 22 2012 05:34 TwoToneTerran wrote: If Lee starts red and you're his first gank top that means you get to see him come through the tri brush, right? Or is he going to take the long path around through the river to get to the brush to camp you? If Shaco does the exact same thing then he's literally behind you, with a box to your only retreat path even if you flash, while you're exhausted, hitting you with red buff. ...wat? | ||
gtrsrs
United States9109 Posts
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UniversalSnip
9871 Posts
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UniversalSnip
9871 Posts
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