SPL and KeSPA's Upcoming Reform: KeSPA and SPL to fully incorporate LoL
Before the start of the summer season of SPL, KeSPA, Riot, and OGN formally signed a memorandum of cooperation. The attendance of this signing ceremony includes KeSPA's president (the congressman), Riot Asian president, and other leaders.
In the near future, KeSPA's Proleague will very likely to incorporate League of Legends completely. This issue has been under negotiation, and it represents the start of a new era.
In the meanwhile, the possibility of holding global tournaments in Korea has been discussed. Also, KeSPA's president mentioned that two more KeSPA's teams will be formed in the future. This probably means the complete involvement of all KeSPA's teams into LoL.
Different from the OGN LoL Champions, Proleague will be a long-term tournament with greater scale. However, because this is KeSPA's tournament under KeSPA's system, and plus the high criteria of entering KeSPA, the involvement of teams such as MVP, LGIM, and Najin is still under negotiation.
KeSPA's president also indicated that next season's LoL Champions will return to the "memorable" place. People have speculated that it's the Gwangalli_Beach.
Now, OGN has held some amateur tournaments. And they will hold more semi-professional tournaments in the future as well.
When talking about the future, they hope LoL will be like a professional sport to attract more investment and provide more insurance to professional players. Riot's representative said that holding global tournaments in Korea is like holding world cup in Brazil--it's crazily good. They hope regions will have more cooperation.
At least they are smart and picking up LoL over Dota2. LoL is already getting huge in Korea so I see it being still a huge success. sc2 & LoL...I love it.
Sometimes I try to imagine how popular SC2 would be in Korea if it had been as accessible as Brood War in internet cafes and if bnet 2.0 had been well designed.
Then I get depressed and I think about something else.
On July 04 2013 14:14 Empirimancer wrote: Sometimes I try to imagine how popular SC2 would be in Korea if it had been as accessible as Brood War in internet cafes and if bnet 2.0 had been well designed.
Then I get depressed and I think about something else.
Sometimes I try to imagine if Blizz dev team didn't make Starcraft 2 so noob friendly to keep the competitive level harsh just like BW. Surely a high percentage of Pro Koreans would've have switched to Starcraft 2 keeping the player base and viewer base the same to the new game.
I wonder what this means for SPL and all its players...I wonder what sort of system they have in mind now... Would be pretty awesome to have LG-IM and MVP join up though.
On July 04 2013 14:19 larse wrote: I have highlighted the most important information that may be relevant to SC2, at least IMO:
"""Also, KeSPA's president mentioned that two more KeSPA's teams will be formed in the future."""
I thought they were talking about two additional LoL teams to compete in this proleague.
KeSPA + LoL making it easier and easier for me to care less about SC2 though. So sad
Although they are talking about LoL, they mean two more KeSPA teams to be formed.
Remember KeSPA teams are very different from teams outside the KeSPA systems. And we haven't seen new KeSPA's teams in a long time regardless of the game.
On July 04 2013 14:19 larse wrote: I have highlighted the most important information that may be relevant to SC2, at least IMO:
"""Also, KeSPA's president mentioned that two more KeSPA's teams will be formed in the future."""
I thought they were talking about two additional LoL teams to compete in this proleague.
KeSPA + LoL making it easier and easier for me to care less about SC2 though. So sad
OGN The Champions is basically Kespa + LoL isnt it? They have CJ/SKT/KT in there Although I guess it'll also mean the formation of Samsung Khan and Woongjin, STX and T8 in question.
Mostly LoL but some points of discussion in relation to SC2:
-If teams like Najin/MVP (non-KeSPA teams) are allowed into KeSPA's LoL PL, then there's a chance ESF SC2 teams might also be allowed into PL -(previously mentioned) 2 new KeSPA teams possibly extending over to SC2 also -One of the new teams might be STX's team take over? We dunno if the two "new" teams are gonna replace, actually be new, or even be part of SC2 also though.
And here we are on TL where the majority is still unbelievable angry about lol and think it is a games for noobs.
STX Soul Coaching staff is already coaching a LoL team (CTU) and the coaching staff is giving classes in the university. Korea wants to have the LoL World Championship 2014 in Korea and is already in talks with Riot
On July 04 2013 14:25 Chexx wrote: And here we are on TL where the majority is still unbelievable angry about lol and think it is a games for noobs.
Korea wants to have the LoL World Championship 2014 in Korea and is already in talks with Riot
People who think LoL is a game for noobs is quite ignorant like I was at one point. The game's pretty easy to pick up on but ridiculously hard to master.
On July 04 2013 14:14 Empirimancer wrote: Sometimes I try to imagine how popular SC2 would be in Korea if it had been as accessible as Brood War in internet cafes and if bnet 2.0 had been well designed.
Then I get depressed and I think about something else.
lol the only way sc2 would have ever reached the popularity of bw if it became free2play or if people found a way to pirate it at no profit to blizzard like bw.
On July 04 2013 14:35 iKill[ShocK] wrote: Having two more Kespa team in LoL means two BRAND NEW sponsors/team? Or Samsung/Woongjin/STX/T8 will be expanding to LoL?
It would make sense if the two "new" kespa teams are the teams sponsoring T8 and STX Soul, with the inclusion of EG-TL.
On July 04 2013 14:35 iKill[ShocK] wrote: Having two more Kespa team in LoL means two BRAND NEW sponsors/team? Or Samsung/Woongjin/STX/T8 will be expanding to LoL?
Highly doubt that they will get two new sponsors. I understood it as the existing KeSPA teams will all have a LoL team for the new Proleague.
The new KeSPA teams are most likely going to be LG-IM (with LG Electronics as their head sponsor) and MVP (with Lotte Chilsung as their head sponsor) - they both have SC2 teams as well to participate in Proleague.
With STX pretty much taking over CTU, only Woongjin and Samsung remain teams without LoL squads. I wouldn't be surprised if one of them picked up ESG (former SKT T1 #1).
The only downside to this is that SC2 may be demoted to Special Force status in terms of Proleague pecking order.
Holy fuuuuuuuuuuuck this makes me incredibly happy. I don't quite get this right though... are 2 new teams joining Kespa? (maybe Najin + who knows) or are 2 Kespa teams about to create LoL squads?
Should be great either way, as long as we have nothing like the abomination that was the Hybrid PL of course
On July 04 2013 14:46 GTR wrote: The new KeSPA teams are most likely going to be LG-IM (with LG Electronics as their head sponsor) and MVP (with Lotte Chilsung as their head sponsor) - they both have SC2 teams as well to participate in Proleague.
With STX pretty much taking over CTU, only Woongjin and Samsung remain teams without LoL squads. I wouldn't be surprised if one of them picked up ESG (former SKT T1 #1).
On July 04 2013 14:46 GTR wrote: The new KeSPA teams are most likely going to be LG-IM (with LG Electronics as their head sponsor) and MVP (with Lotte Chilsung as their head sponsor) - they both have SC2 teams as well to participate in Proleague.
With STX pretty much taking over CTU, only Woongjin and Samsung remain teams without LoL squads. I wouldn't be surprised if one of them picked up ESG (former SKT T1 #1).
The only downside to this is that SC2 may be demoted to Special Force status in terms of Proleague pecking order.
you don't expect STX as a sponsor to cease to exist?
This doesn't belong in the sc2 forums, currently STX and Woongjin don't have LoL teams so when they mention two more teams they're referring to woongjin and STX obtaining LoL teams for the LoL proleague.
edit: samsung khan doesn't either, also apparently STX is about to pick up a team? had no idea about that.
On July 04 2013 14:53 Dodgin wrote: This doesn't belong in the sc2 forums, currently STX and Woongjin don't have LoL teams so when they mention two more teams they're referring to woongjin and STX obtaining LoL teams for the LoL proleague.
Why is this depressing news for anyone here? I cannot understand. I personally don't follow LoL that much and I think the game is pretty boring (game itself, not playing with friends or watching) but growing eSports scene is a good sign. Its not like suddenly no one will play Starcraft 2. Starcraft 2 is competition in 1v1, for LoL you need a good team to compete etc.
On July 04 2013 14:46 GTR wrote: The new KeSPA teams are most likely going to be LG-IM (with LG Electronics as their head sponsor) and MVP (with Lotte Chilsung as their head sponsor) - they both have SC2 teams as well to participate in Proleague.
With STX pretty much taking over CTU, only Woongjin and Samsung remain teams without LoL squads. I wouldn't be surprised if one of them picked up ESG (former SKT T1 #1).
The only downside to this is that SC2 may be demoted to Special Force status in terms of Proleague pecking order.
What about Startale with Red Bull? The Lotte sponsorship is known to be product-only, I don't think they are behind mvp to the level that redbull is behind startale or lg is behind im
The new teams are not existing ones with a new LoL squad. By "KeSPA teams", the organization might employed more than one game (Special Force anyone?) Hope it's gonna be MVP/LG aka likely 2 more teams to Sc2 PL'14. Startale & FXO better follow the trend (but I read somewhere that FXO is actually going for Dota)
IM joining pro league would be pretty awesome, it will be interesting to see what happens with GSTL/SPL after both their seasons are over.
Hopefully a larger pro league, but with lol being added I don't know if they have enough time to air sc2 + lol each week with the OGN champs and WCS also on.
On July 04 2013 15:06 sM.Zik wrote: Still trying to figure how this is related to Sc2.
It's not, I have no idea idea why this is sc2 community news. Unless we're all wrong, GTR read the article and it says specifically that two new kespa teams will be formed and join the sc2 proleague.
On July 04 2013 15:06 sM.Zik wrote: Still trying to figure how this is related to Sc2.
It's not, I have no idea idea why this is sc2 community news. Unless we're all wrong, GTR read the article and it says specifically that two new kespa teams will be formed and join the sc2 proleague.
The current Kespa teams picking up lol teams makes more sense, not really sc2 related even tho I'm sure it will hurt/help sc2 with scheduling in the future.
On July 04 2013 15:03 Fionn wrote: So Champions is going to be the OSL and they're going have their very own Proleague.
how does this even work when It's already a team game? How can proleague differentiate itself from Champions?
Right now Champions is Ro16, four groups of four teams, round robin Bo2. Then it goes into a eight man playoff. Similar to OSL. They have a Summer, Winter and Spring season, like OSL used to have with three tournaments a year.
Proleague would probably be twelve or so teams round robin going over the course of a year.
On July 04 2013 15:03 Fionn wrote: So Champions is going to be the OSL and they're going have their very own Proleague.
how does this even work when It's already a team game? How can proleague differentiate itself from Champions?
Right now Champions is Ro16, four groups of four teams, round robin Bo2. Then it goes into a eight man playoff. Similar to OSL. They have a Summer, Winter and Spring season, like OSL used to have with three tournaments a year.
Proleague would probably be twelve or so teams round robin going over the course of a year.
I think sc2 success or lack there of in Korea is, because of popularity of lol. Broodwar was the only popular game for years with little competition from other developers. Now we have starcraft 2, dota2, and lol. I think LOL is taking away viewers who would normally be watching sc2.
On July 04 2013 15:18 SnakEhead wrote: I think sc2 success or lack there of in Korea is, because of popularity of lol. Broodwar was the only popular game for years with little competition from other developers. Now we have starcraft 2, dota2, and lol. I think LOL is taking away viewers who would normally be watching sc2.
Not really. BW had been a popular game but it was not top 1 since maybe 2005. So BW was no where close to the popularity of LoL. If you want, I have data to back up.
On July 04 2013 15:03 Fionn wrote: So Champions is going to be the OSL and they're going have their very own Proleague.
how does this even work when It's already a team game? How can proleague differentiate itself from Champions?
Right now Champions is Ro16, four groups of four teams, round robin Bo2. Then it goes into a eight man playoff. Similar to OSL. They have a Summer, Winter and Spring season, like OSL used to have with three tournaments a year.
Proleague would probably be twelve or so teams round robin going over the course of a year.
If they did a Proleague though, I assume it would mean only Kespa teams and no qualifications, like how it was in bw/sc2. Also how do they handle KT, SKT and others having multiple teams? Do they let all of their teams in, only one team? Wouldn't having a team league that excludes the recent OGN champion's MVP Ozone be a terrible idea?
On July 04 2013 15:18 SnakEhead wrote: I think sc2 success or lack there of in Korea is, because of popularity of lol. Broodwar was the only popular game for years with little competition from other developers. Now we have starcraft 2, dota2, and lol. I think LOL is taking away viewers who would normally be watching sc2.
I think it's Blizzard's fault for their feud with KeSPA and eventually picking the wrong party to promote Sc2. Theres almost no LoL back in late 2010/2011 you know The side effect was that OGN ended up picking another game as their flagship. And so we arrive at this point when LoL has taken over everything included the beach
Screenshot from Yesterday's LoL Champions. You can see they had a KeSPA sign there, which was not there before yesterday.
KeSPA has been considered by many didn't have the control over even their team's LoL part. But this seems like a completely centralization of KeSPA's control over LoL.
holy shit, you know SC2 is not popular in Korea when even KeSPA is gonna side with LoL, im gonna blame it all Blizzard, they never listened to us the BW audience (Korean or Foreigner),they said if you want to play BW just play BW, well, this is the result KeSPA is going with LoL now
On July 04 2013 14:46 GTR wrote: The new KeSPA teams are most likely going to be LG-IM (with LG Electronics as their head sponsor) and MVP (with Lotte Chilsung as their head sponsor) - they both have SC2 teams as well to participate in Proleague.
With STX pretty much taking over CTU, only Woongjin and Samsung remain teams without LoL squads. I wouldn't be surprised if one of them picked up ESG (former SKT T1 #1).
The only downside to this is that SC2 may be demoted to Special Force status in terms of Proleague pecking order.
What about Startale with Red Bull? The Lotte sponsorship is known to be product-only, I don't think they are behind mvp to the level that redbull is behind startale or lg is behind im
Startale don't operate a LoL team. Red Bull also aren't a Korean company.
On July 04 2013 15:18 SnakEhead wrote: I think sc2 success or lack there of in Korea is, because of popularity of lol. Broodwar was the only popular game for years with little competition from other developers. Now we have starcraft 2, dota2, and lol. I think LOL is taking away viewers who would normally be watching sc2.
Dota 2 is non-existent in Korea for the most part, Starcraft 2 was its only real competitor.
On July 04 2013 15:18 SnakEhead wrote: I think sc2 success or lack there of in Korea is, because of popularity of lol. Broodwar was the only popular game for years with little competition from other developers. Now we have starcraft 2, dota2, and lol. I think LOL is taking away viewers who would normally be watching sc2.
I think it's Blizzard's fault for their feud with KeSPA and eventually picking the wrong party to promote Sc2. Theres almost no LoL back in late 2010/2011 you know The side effect was that OGN ended up picking another game as their flagship. And so we arrive at this point when LoL has taken over everything included the beach
On July 04 2013 14:46 GTR wrote: The new KeSPA teams are most likely going to be LG-IM (with LG Electronics as their head sponsor) and MVP (with Lotte Chilsung as their head sponsor) - they both have SC2 teams as well to participate in Proleague.
With STX pretty much taking over CTU, only Woongjin and Samsung remain teams without LoL squads. I wouldn't be surprised if one of them picked up ESG (former SKT T1 #1).
The only downside to this is that SC2 may be demoted to Special Force status in terms of Proleague pecking order.
Yeah this is what I'm thinking too. With Team8 financial situaion still unknown, I doubt Kespa can have 2 brand new teams forming. We may see IM and MVP joining Kespa.
There're so many teams out there that don't have sponsors. Other Kespa teams can easily pick those up and start from there.
On July 04 2013 14:14 Empirimancer wrote: Sometimes I try to imagine how popular SC2 would be in Korea if it had been as accessible as Brood War in internet cafes and if bnet 2.0 had been well designed.
Then I get depressed and I think about something else.
lol the only way sc2 would have ever reached the popularity of bw if it became free2play or if people found a way to pirate it at no profit to blizzard like bw.
Free to play with skins sell seems to be working pretty well for Riot. I think it has to do with blizzard shitty Bnet (seriously its such a hassle to make a game/join channel/ make a private game) and how socially dead bnet .2 is. The ball on ball action also adds a bit to it too.
On July 04 2013 15:18 SnakEhead wrote: I think sc2 success or lack there of in Korea is, because of popularity of lol. Broodwar was the only popular game for years with little competition from other developers. Now we have starcraft 2, dota2, and lol. I think LOL is taking away viewers who would normally be watching sc2.
Tbh though, BW was The King at the right time. Game genre, infrastructures, knowledge were so underdeveloped at that time. We didn't even have concept about internet gaming, or massive multiplayer games.
If MOBA/ARTS games such as Dota, LoL had existed the same time as BW 10 years ago, I doubt BW would have been the king of Korea.
On July 04 2013 15:03 Fionn wrote: So Champions is going to be the OSL and they're going have their very own Proleague.
how does this even work when It's already a team game? How can proleague differentiate itself from Champions?
Right now Champions is Ro16, four groups of four teams, round robin Bo2. Then it goes into a eight man playoff. Similar to OSL. They have a Summer, Winter and Spring season, like OSL used to have with three tournaments a year.
Proleague would probably be twelve or so teams round robin going over the course of a year.
So, potentially even less TV time for SC2?
SC2 was already knocked off from prime time. That's not really news. I was waiting to hear about a PL for LoL and what do you know that day has come. This League will have a lot more meat to it compared to the current incarnation. Still waiting to see what happens with T8 and all the other teams with a cloud hanging over their heads.
On July 04 2013 14:46 GTR wrote: The new KeSPA teams are most likely going to be LG-IM (with LG Electronics as their head sponsor) and MVP (with Lotte Chilsung as their head sponsor) - they both have SC2 teams as well to participate in Proleague.
With STX pretty much taking over CTU, only Woongjin and Samsung remain teams without LoL squads. I wouldn't be surprised if one of them picked up ESG (former SKT T1 #1).
The only downside to this is that SC2 may be demoted to Special Force status in terms of Proleague pecking order.
I wonder if they are going to be in PL with their SC2 squads or if they are going to stay with GSTL.
On July 04 2013 15:03 Fionn wrote: So Champions is going to be the OSL and they're going have their very own Proleague.
how does this even work when It's already a team game? How can proleague differentiate itself from Champions?
I guess Proleague is... proleague where all player in the same team play as a team like Battle Royal tournament. It means that, for example MVP Blue and Ozone, will combine both their roster of 10+ players, and switch players at the begining of each match to change up strategies (players can just focus on training couple of champions and apply couple of strategies)
Champions are not really a league, it's more like tournaments than leagues. I guess Proleague will only for Kespa team, while Champions will be open tournaments, where other teams, such as Startale, or foreign teams, can compete through the qualifiers.
On July 04 2013 15:04 Arceus wrote: The new teams are not existing ones with a new LoL squad. By "KeSPA teams", the organization might employed more than one game (Special Force anyone?) Hope it's gonna be MVP/LG aka likely 2 more teams to Sc2 PL'14. Startale & FXO better follow the trend (but I read somewhere that FXO is actually going for Dota)
On July 04 2013 15:18 SnakEhead wrote: I think sc2 success or lack there of in Korea is, because of popularity of lol. Broodwar was the only popular game for years with little competition from other developers. Now we have starcraft 2, dota2, and lol. I think LOL is taking away viewers who would normally be watching sc2.
Not really. BW had been a popular game but it was not top 1 since maybe 2005. So BW was no where close to the popularity of LoL. If you want, I have data to back up.
On July 04 2013 15:27 insanet wrote: holy shit, you know SC2 is not popular in Korea when even KeSPA is gonna side with LoL, im gonna blame it all Blizzard, they never listened to us the BW audience (Korean or Foreigner),they said if you want to play BW just play BW, well, this is the result KeSPA is going with LoL now
I blame fact that lol is game people enjoy more than sc2.
On July 04 2013 15:18 SnakEhead wrote: I think sc2 success or lack there of in Korea is, because of popularity of lol. Broodwar was the only popular game for years with little competition from other developers. Now we have starcraft 2, dota2, and lol. I think LOL is taking away viewers who would normally be watching sc2.
Not really. BW had been a popular game but it was not top 1 since maybe 2005. So BW was no where close to the popularity of LoL. If you want, I have data to back up.
And remember this was before LoL was out and BW only accounts for 6% in PC bang play time, and this number has been like this for a long time, but LoL currently accounts for 40% and has been like this for a while. It's absurdly popular and much much more popular than BW.
On July 04 2013 15:18 SnakEhead wrote: I think sc2 success or lack there of in Korea is, because of popularity of lol. Broodwar was the only popular game for years with little competition from other developers. Now we have starcraft 2, dota2, and lol. I think LOL is taking away viewers who would normally be watching sc2.
Not really. BW had been a popular game but it was not top 1 since maybe 2005. So BW was no where close to the popularity of LoL. If you want, I have data to back up.
And remember this was before LoL was out and BW only accounts for 6% in PC bang play time, and this number has like this for a long time, but LoL currently accounts for 40%. It's absurdly popular and much much more popular than BW.
On July 04 2013 14:14 Empirimancer wrote: Sometimes I try to imagine how popular SC2 would be in Korea if it had been as accessible as Brood War in internet cafes and if bnet 2.0 had been well designed.
Then I get depressed and I think about something else.
Sometimes I try to imagine if Blizz dev team didn't make Starcraft 2 so noob friendly to keep the competitive level harsh just like BW. Surely a high percentage of Pro Koreans would've have switched to Starcraft 2 keeping the player base and viewer base the same to the new game.
If you think SC2 is not as popular as BW was because of some "noob friendliness" you're really mistaken. Difficulty of a game has nothing to do with it's success.
On July 04 2013 14:14 Empirimancer wrote: Sometimes I try to imagine how popular SC2 would be in Korea if it had been as accessible as Brood War in internet cafes and if bnet 2.0 had been well designed.
Then I get depressed and I think about something else.
lol the only way sc2 would have ever reached the popularity of bw if it became free2play or if people found a way to pirate it at no profit to blizzard like bw.
You are so wrong if you really think the only thing wrong with SC2 is that it's not free. Korea is not a third world country, and people actually spend money on LoL (most people doing ranked games probably spend more on LoL than a SC2 player on his game).
On July 04 2013 14:54 NarutO wrote: Why is this depressing news for anyone here? I cannot understand. I personally don't follow LoL that much and I think the game is pretty boring (game itself, not playing with friends or watching) but growing eSports scene is a good sign. Its not like suddenly no one will play Starcraft 2. Starcraft 2 is competition in 1v1, for LoL you need a good team to compete etc.
I think its good news...
I don't care about hashtagESPORTS, I care about SC2.
On July 04 2013 15:09 DRTnOOber wrote: I don't understand... does this mean that there will be no more SC2 Proleague? Is it being replaced by LoL?
I don't see why you'd be any surprised if SC2 PL was to be shut down.
No audience, less than 10k stream viewers.. SC2 is dead in Korea, just deal with it.
No audience, what streams have you been watching? The studio was full for OSL every night so far and PL crowds are a lot better than 5 months ago. I'm really tired of this exaggerated negativity.
On July 04 2013 14:14 Empirimancer wrote: Sometimes I try to imagine how popular SC2 would be in Korea if it had been as accessible as Brood War in internet cafes and if bnet 2.0 had been well designed.
Then I get depressed and I think about something else.
lol the only way sc2 would have ever reached the popularity of bw if it became free2play or if people found a way to pirate it at no profit to blizzard like bw.
You are so wrong if you really think the only thing wrong with SC2 is that it's not free. Korea is not a third world country, and people actually spend money on LoL (most people doing ranked games probably spend more on LoL than a SC2 player on his game).
But the point is that you start out playing it for free, then once you start to get really into it, then you spend money. Compared to Starcraft 2 where you need to buy the game just to be able to play it anywhere.
On July 04 2013 14:14 Empirimancer wrote: Sometimes I try to imagine how popular SC2 would be in Korea if it had been as accessible as Brood War in internet cafes and if bnet 2.0 had been well designed.
Then I get depressed and I think about something else.
Sometimes I try to imagine if Blizz dev team didn't make Starcraft 2 so noob friendly to keep the competitive level harsh just like BW. Surely a high percentage of Pro Koreans would've have switched to Starcraft 2 keeping the player base and viewer base the same to the new game.
Compared to the incredibly hardcore LoL that Koreans now love? Personally I think Sc2 is far harder then BW in every aspect that wasn't just that bad because they couldn't make it any better back then. Watching those old BW matches I am just struck by how slow all the units move and how few units there are to control, how few abilities they have to use etc.
Lets face it, people can relate to LoL a lot more, and its easier to get into than other games. Not a fan of LoL as a competitive game, but it is pushing esports as a whole forward so at least you got that to look forward to.
On July 04 2013 16:30 Prince_Stranger wrote: Take it Blizzard for taking out bw.
BW was fading out irregardless of Blizzard.
No. Kespa had to switch to sc2 because of Blizzard. Even today we could see proleague with bw.
Pretty sure they could have kept going with BW but choose not to because of constant decline in viewership and interest. Plus the game being ancient by todays standards.
If there was an alternative universe where BW was still being broadcast, LoL would kill it too.
On July 04 2013 14:25 Chexx wrote: And here we are on TL where the majority is still unbelievable angry about lol and think it is a games for noobs.
Korea wants to have the LoL World Championship 2014 in Korea and is already in talks with Riot
People who think LoL is a game for noobs is quite ignorant like I was at one point. The game's pretty easy to pick up on but ridiculously hard to master.
Actually, as a person who plays LoL, DOTA2 and SC2 i must say that the skill cealing is very low in LoL.
I have played dota since 2003, so roughly around 10 years.. probably over 9k games played if not more and i am still not at pro-level because i lack consistent training and motivation. I've played 600 games of LoL and im in Diamond league 3.
Out of the 3 games i feel LoL is the game that require the least bit of individual skill, whenever i watch a pro-player stream his solo-que matches.. i feel i cant learn anything, there is nothing he does that makes me go "oh wow that was fucking sweet". As for streamed tournament matches.. sure there is a great deal of team effort which makes some teams better than others, but the things that a team can do is so very limited.
Now to get back on topic... i dont see why this post has an SC2 tag since it is obviously League of Legends news. And im fairly certain that the "2 new kespa teams that are being formed" is just 2 of the current teams picking up LoL.
Anyho, it is sad that the less skill-demanding ARTS game is getting big in korea, i've always viewed USA as the part of the world where casual games are big, compared to korea where very-skill-demanding games are big in korea. Seems like things are going to change.
On July 04 2013 15:09 DRTnOOber wrote: I don't understand... does this mean that there will be no more SC2 Proleague? Is it being replaced by LoL?
I don't see why you'd be any surprised if SC2 PL was to be shut down.
No audience, less than 10k stream viewers.. SC2 is dead in Korea, just deal with it.
No audience, what streams have you been watching? The studio was full for OSL every night so far and PL crowds are a lot better than 5 months ago. I'm really tired of this exaggerated negativity.
Proleague I wouldn't argue has gotten much better. It's been a couple dozen people in the studio, sometimes bit more, often less, especially when they aren't in the studio. OSL was much more than I expected, I'll give it that. They didn't come anywhere close to filling the studio though.
This is what the OGN studio looks like when filled. Standing room only, and sometimes not even that for every LoL match.
On July 04 2013 15:09 DRTnOOber wrote: I don't understand... does this mean that there will be no more SC2 Proleague? Is it being replaced by LoL?
I don't see why you'd be any surprised if SC2 PL was to be shut down.
No audience, less than 10k stream viewers.. SC2 is dead in Korea, just deal with it.
No audience, what streams have you been watching? The studio was full for OSL every night so far and PL crowds are a lot better than 5 months ago. I'm really tired of this exaggerated negativity.
Proleague I wouldn't argue has gotten much better. It's been a couple dozen people in the studio, sometimes bit more, often less, especially when they aren't in the studio. OSL was much more than I expected, I'll give it that. They didn't come anywhere close to filling the studio though.
This is what the OGN studio looks like when filled. Standing room only, and sometimes not even that for every LoL match.
On July 04 2013 14:25 Chexx wrote: And here we are on TL where the majority is still unbelievable angry about lol and think it is a games for noobs.
Korea wants to have the LoL World Championship 2014 in Korea and is already in talks with Riot
People who think LoL is a game for noobs is quite ignorant like I was at one point. The game's pretty easy to pick up on but ridiculously hard to master.
Actually, as a person who plays LoL, DOTA2 and SC2 i must say that the skill cealing is very low in LoL.
I have played dota since 2003, so roughly around 10 years.. probably over 9k games played if not more and i am still not at pro-level because i lack consistent training and motivation. I've played 600 games of LoL and im in Diamond league 3.
Haha it depends on person to person i guess. I've always been SC2 Mid Master, and Very High Dota2 rank, but I'm still Silver4 in LoL.
On July 04 2013 15:09 DRTnOOber wrote: I don't understand... does this mean that there will be no more SC2 Proleague? Is it being replaced by LoL?
I don't see why you'd be any surprised if SC2 PL was to be shut down.
No audience, less than 10k stream viewers.. SC2 is dead in Korea, just deal with it.
No audience, what streams have you been watching? The studio was full for OSL every night so far and PL crowds are a lot better than 5 months ago. I'm really tired of this exaggerated negativity.
Proleague I wouldn't argue has gotten much better. It's been a couple dozen people in the studio, sometimes bit more, often less, especially when they aren't in the studio. OSL was much more than I expected, I'll give it that. They didn't come anywhere close to filling the studio though.
This is what the OGN studio looks like when filled. Standing room only, and sometimes not even that for every LoL match.
as someone who constantly watches both games, SPL SC2 don't come near to the (live) viewership OGN LoL has.
On July 04 2013 15:09 DRTnOOber wrote: I don't understand... does this mean that there will be no more SC2 Proleague? Is it being replaced by LoL?
I don't see why you'd be any surprised if SC2 PL was to be shut down.
No audience, less than 10k stream viewers.. SC2 is dead in Korea, just deal with it.
No audience, what streams have you been watching? The studio was full for OSL every night so far and PL crowds are a lot better than 5 months ago. I'm really tired of this exaggerated negativity.
Proleague I wouldn't argue has gotten much better. It's been a couple dozen people in the studio, sometimes bit more, often less, especially when they aren't in the studio. OSL was much more than I expected, I'll give it that. They didn't come anywhere close to filling the studio though.
This is what the OGN studio looks like when filled. Standing room only, and sometimes not even that for every LoL match.
as someone who constantly watches both games, SPL SC2 don't come near to the (live) viewership OGN LoL has.
I never said it did, read the post I was replying to. His signature is " dead game " for fuck sake, I'm just calling him out on his bullshit.
On July 04 2013 16:30 Prince_Stranger wrote: Take it Blizzard for taking out bw.
BW was fading out irregardless of Blizzard.
No. Kespa had to switch to sc2 because of Blizzard. Even today we could see proleague with bw.
Pretty sure they could have kept going with BW but choose not to because of constant decline in viewership and interest. Plus the game being ancient by todays standards.
If there was an alternative universe where BW was still being broadcast, LoL would kill it too.
Yeah....Kespa probably didn't see the long term investment in BW as worth it. Not sure why he's going on the blizzard hate.
On July 04 2013 15:38 nufcrulz wrote: dont see why this is on the front page, has nothing to do with either SC2 or Dota
Because it's newsworthy. Considering OGN already has their own league running and now they're announcing this that means there are even more time constraints than what we had before for SC2 PL. It has a direct impact on it when we're talking about scheduling. Maybe it means they have to lean more to streaming the SC2 PL. Plus, I think LoL deserves better treatment on this website. I mean if we cannot even get the stream listings right, we might as acknowledge what is going on elsewhere.
On July 04 2013 16:30 Prince_Stranger wrote: Take it Blizzard for taking out bw.
BW was fading out irregardless of Blizzard.
No. Kespa had to switch to sc2 because of Blizzard. Even today we could see proleague with bw.
Pretty sure they could have kept going with BW but choose not to because of constant decline in viewership and interest. Plus the game being ancient by todays standards.
If there was an alternative universe where BW was still being broadcast, LoL would kill it too.
Yeah....Kespa probably didn't see the long term investment in BW as worth it. Not sure why he's going on the blizzard hate.
We've already debunked many of that crap. Let's keep that out of this thread. If you really want to bring it up again I recommend you use the search engine to find all those threads especially in the Brood War section. It's not like they're ancient but we've explored many different ideas already and it isn't as simple and straight-forward as some of you guys assume. Hint, hint it goes beyond Blizzard.
On July 04 2013 14:14 Empirimancer wrote: Sometimes I try to imagine how popular SC2 would be in Korea if it had been as accessible as Brood War in internet cafes and if bnet 2.0 had been well designed.
Then I get depressed and I think about something else.
Sometimes I try to imagine if Blizz dev team didn't make Starcraft 2 so noob friendly to keep the competitive level harsh just like BW. Surely a high percentage of Pro Koreans would've have switched to Starcraft 2 keeping the player base and viewer base the same to the new game.
Compared to the incredibly hardcore LoL that Koreans now love? Personally I think Sc2 is far harder then BW in every aspect that wasn't just that bad because they couldn't make it any better back then. Watching those old BW matches I am just struck by how slow all the units move and how few units there are to control, how few abilities they have to use etc.
Yeah, I mean unlimited unit selection did not exist in 1998. + Show Spoiler +
It did, Total annihilation had it, and so did Red Alert in 1996, and even Command & Conquer the year before (not completely unlimited, but certainly 50+).+ Show Spoiler +
Other UI issues, sure.
Also, skill ceilings are irrelevant. It is a buzzword among the SC2 community, like "storylines" has been the past months. The average viewer gives no damns about it, it has never been relevant to an eSports' competitiveness. BW wasn't popular because it was hard as balls, it hit a key timing in the Korean infrastructure development following the 1997 Asian financial crisis.
On July 04 2013 14:14 Empirimancer wrote: Sometimes I try to imagine how popular SC2 would be in Korea if it had been as accessible as Brood War in internet cafes and if bnet 2.0 had been well designed.
Then I get depressed and I think about something else.
Sometimes I try to imagine if Blizz dev team didn't make Starcraft 2 so noob friendly to keep the competitive level harsh just like BW. Surely a high percentage of Pro Koreans would've have switched to Starcraft 2 keeping the player base and viewer base the same to the new game.
Compared to the incredibly hardcore LoL that Koreans now love? Personally I think Sc2 is far harder then BW in every aspect that wasn't just that bad because they couldn't make it any better back then. Watching those old BW matches I am just struck by how slow all the units move and how few units there are to control, how few abilities they have to use etc.
Are you sure we're talking about the same broodwar? The broodwar I know used maelstrom, storm, consume, plague, dark swarm, lockdown, emp, statis, recall, stim, yamato, irradiate, you name it. And they're not spells that are rarely used like neural parasite, it was used quite often.
While starcrafts require quite a bit of focus on mechanics and strategy, MOBA games focus more on strategy, team communication and coordination. They are different genres. LoL is very easy to pick up, but to play at the pro level, is very, very hard. Especially in Korea.
On July 04 2013 17:03 StarStruck wrote: We've already debunked many of that crap. Let's keep that out of this thread. If you really want to bring it up again I recommend you use the search engine to find all those threads especially in the Brood War section. It's not like they're ancient but we've explored many different ideas already and it isn't as simple and straight-forward as some of you guys assume. Hint, hint it goes beyond Blizzard.
You can't make a post like this and not explain more, what a tease!
Can anyone at least point me towards the threads that explain this stuff?
Why are we doing SC2 vs BW? If you think BW would have won out against LoL you're mentally insane.
League of Legends is a casual F2P MOBA. You're never going to relate to an audience better than with a game like that. BW/SC2 are great esports, but they will never be more watched than League of Legends.
And you know what? That's fine.
I personally think League is stupid, and I only watch Starcraft, which is why I'm on a STARCRAFT forum (well at least subforum).
Well, a LoL Proleague would mean even more of OGN's content being devoted to LoL. I wonder how long SPL can last on SPOTV alone. If it all goes back to GOM though, that's fine with me. They're the only SC2 korean streams that I watch anyway.
Wohoo, I hope OGN moves completely away from Starcraft2, so that GOM gets to cast WCS alone. Their format, casting and frequency is just so much better than the current WCS/OSL.
On July 04 2013 17:29 Big J wrote: Wohoo, I hope OGN moves completely away from Starcraft2, so that GOM gets to cast WCS alone. Their format, casting and frequency is just so much better than the current WCS/OSL.
On July 04 2013 17:29 Big J wrote: Wohoo, I hope OGN moves completely away from Starcraft2, so that GOM gets to cast WCS alone. Their format, casting and frequency is just so much better than the current WCS/OSL.
That would be the worst thing to happen to SC2.
Not particularly. We fared just fine for 2 years like that.
On July 04 2013 17:29 Big J wrote: Wohoo, I hope OGN moves completely away from Starcraft2, so that GOM gets to cast WCS alone. Their format, casting and frequency is just so much better than the current WCS/OSL.
That would be the worst thing to happen to SC2.
Wouldn't say that, at least outside korea the GOM stuff is far more popular.
This shouldn't affect SC2 at all (how many of you know, there is also Special Forces 2 Proleague?), if it will, then probably in a good way. If they allow 3rd party teams like MVP, LG-IM, Najin etc into LoL Proleague, there is a precedent right there, for teams like Startale, LG-IM and MVP to enter also SC2 Proleague...
I have to admit, yesterday watching OGN The Champions Summer, all I could think of was "those fangirl screams are supposed to be for Jaedong and Rain and Jangbi and Flash and..." and it made me really sad.
I wish tl picked lol over dota2 as a wol player switched to lol I can say its the best choice I made since starting wc3 lol is just a fun game at all levels and miss coming to tl like I would for sc2 wol
On July 04 2013 14:14 Empirimancer wrote: Sometimes I try to imagine how popular SC2 would be in Korea if it had been as accessible as Brood War in internet cafes and if bnet 2.0 had been well designed.
Then I get depressed and I think about something else.
Sometimes I try to imagine if Blizz dev team didn't make Starcraft 2 so noob friendly to keep the competitive level harsh just like BW. Surely a high percentage of Pro Koreans would've have switched to Starcraft 2 keeping the player base and viewer base the same to the new game.
Blizz did the opposite though. They marketed sc2 as ESPORT, while they should hav marketed it as a game that your entire family played, like they did with StarCraft. Accessibility first, esports later.
I'm not sure I like this. As long as it doesn't affect proleague or osl anything I'm okay with it, I guess.
I am a bad person because I don't give a f*** about LoL. Or unfortunately I do, in fact: - because it seems that the bigger LoL is, the smaller SC2 is, I hate LoL. - what is more, because of LoL twitch.tv is lagging during every damn LoL tournament.
So I am just very sad that LoL overtook Starcraft's position in Korea and globally.
On July 04 2013 17:35 Douillos wrote: Shouldn't this be in the LOL section? It seems that otherwise its just a justification to start another "sc2 is dead omg" discussion...
Yeah, I don't see anything concerning sc2 in this post, don't get it.
Not sure what to think of this. May be that Kespa gets more "power" from this, stabilizing their SC2 teams, or it could mean that they concentrate more on LoL and dissolve more SC2 teams (probably not). I just hope this is not somehow used to strengthen their position and further cement the separation of Korean SC2.
On July 04 2013 18:09 Daswollvieh wrote: Not sure what to think of this. May be that Kespa gets more "power" from this, stabilizing their SC2 teams, or it could mean that they concentrate more on LoL and dissolve more SC2 teams (probably not). I just hope this is not somehow used to strengthen their position and further cement the separation of Korean SC2.
You say "probably not", but I'm quite certain they will. It's completely understandable after all too. LoL pulls more then three times the viewer numbers then SC2. For me it's sad, as I really dislike any moba game, but at the same time I've lost some interest in SC2 too because it gets a less and less popular e-sport compared to LoL and Dota. Looking at twitchs viewer numbers, LoL is ALWAYS ahead of SC2 even if a GSL Finals are live and no LoL tournament is running. For me it's saddening, and I feel like everyone telling you it doesn't matter for SC2 are kinda like these guys: + Show Spoiler +
FUCK, lets hope we'll continue to have sc2 proleague and both games can coexist. But given riots retarded attitude that their game is the one and only true esport I fear for star 2's feature. I really wish riot would just be " fuck it all the moneyz we put into esports isn't worth it, gg!", and disappear forever, I guess one can always dream...
On July 04 2013 17:55 Asturas wrote: I am a bad person because I don't give a f*** about LoL. Or unfortunately I do, in fact: - because it seems that the bigger LoL is, the smaller SC2 is, I hate LoL. - what is more, because of LoL twitch.tv is lagging during every damn LoL tournament.
So I am just very sad that LoL overtook Starcraft's position in Korea and globally.
Huh? I've never seen anything to support that...
I don't mind personally. I watch Starcraft, because I like Starcraft. If there are bigger games out there, that's fine!
On July 04 2013 18:09 Daswollvieh wrote: Not sure what to think of this. May be that Kespa gets more "power" from this, stabilizing their SC2 teams, or it could mean that they concentrate more on LoL and dissolve more SC2 teams (probably not). I just hope this is not somehow used to strengthen their position and further cement the separation of Korean SC2.
You say "probably not", but I'm quite certain they will. It's completely understandable after all too. LoL pulls more then three times the viewer numbers then SC2. For me it's sad, as I really dislike any moba game, but at the same time I've lost some interest in SC2 too because it gets a less and less popular e-sport compared to LoL and Dota. Looking at twitchs viewer numbers, LoL is ALWAYS ahead of SC2 even if a GSL Finals are live and no LoL tournament is running. For me it's saddening, and I feel like everyone telling you it doesn't matter for SC2 are kinda like these guys: + Show Spoiler +
If you're getting tired of sc2 because It's less popular than other games, you probably didn't really like the game that much to begin with. It seems most esports fans don't actually like the games, they just want something that lots of other people like.
On July 04 2013 17:29 Big J wrote: Wohoo, I hope OGN moves completely away from Starcraft2, so that GOM gets to cast WCS alone. Their format, casting and frequency is just so much better than the current WCS/OSL.
That would be the worst thing to happen to SC2.
Not particularly. We fared just fine for 2 years like that.
Oh you so don't get it. You know how small star 2 was in korea during that time? Only hots and ogn/kespa moving in has brought star 2 to a decent level in korea. Gom only may be fine for the foreign audience, but it would be a blow to korean star 2 almost as huge as the max fixing scandal in bw was.
On July 04 2013 18:09 Daswollvieh wrote: Not sure what to think of this. May be that Kespa gets more "power" from this, stabilizing their SC2 teams, or it could mean that they concentrate more on LoL and dissolve more SC2 teams (probably not). I just hope this is not somehow used to strengthen their position and further cement the separation of Korean SC2.
You say "probably not", but I'm quite certain they will. It's completely understandable after all too. LoL pulls more then three times the viewer numbers then SC2. For me it's sad, as I really dislike any moba game, but at the same time I've lost some interest in SC2 too because it gets a less and less popular e-sport compared to LoL and Dota. Looking at twitchs viewer numbers, LoL is ALWAYS ahead of SC2 even if a GSL Finals are live and no LoL tournament is running. For me it's saddening, and I feel like everyone telling you it doesn't matter for SC2 are kinda like these guys: + Show Spoiler +
If you're getting tired of sc2 because It's less popular than other games, you probably didn't really like the game that much to begin with. It seems most esports fans don't actually like the games, they just want something that lots of other people like.
when i red the news I thought this was gonna be about something related to ogn/gsl and the fact the the koreans have settled their differences.Now I find out that Kespa is organizing a lol tournamnet with kespa(thought they had the ogn olympus thingy casted by the the same casters that cast sc2 lol).So what is new?Isn't it the same thing?What is the difference between a kespa team and IM or Najin.Really not get why is this so important or what influence it will have in the lol or sc2 scene.And how does this affect the sc2 scene in any way?Ok they will organize their tournament on a beach.So what?Is sc2 dead cause league will have girls in bikinis on a beach?Who prevents flash and innovation form hooking up with a lol chick?I mean I watch and practice boxing but I gotta give it to football and tennis to having the best women.And whats with the sc dying bullsht.This announcement means nothing more nothing less that the ogn olympus tournament will be branded as proleague aka they are going to chnge the name and the format but that is about it.And ogn olympus already overtook sc2s proleague on primetime so really what is the relevance from the sc2 community?The only important part of the news is the fact that kespa will organize global tournaments which I am curious to see.But the sc2 doomsayers are everpresented dirtying the forum with their apocaliptic views.If you think sc2 is dead cause league gets 2 new more teams and girls in bikini on a beach you need to seek professional help fast
On July 04 2013 14:14 Empirimancer wrote: Sometimes I try to imagine how popular SC2 would be in Korea if it had been as accessible as Brood War in internet cafes and if bnet 2.0 had been well designed.
Then I get depressed and I think about something else.
Sometimes I try to imagine if Blizz dev team didn't make Starcraft 2 so noob friendly to keep the competitive level harsh just like BW. Surely a high percentage of Pro Koreans would've have switched to Starcraft 2 keeping the player base and viewer base the same to the new game.
Compared to the incredibly hardcore LoL that Koreans now love? Personally I think Sc2 is far harder then BW in every aspect that wasn't just that bad because they couldn't make it any better back then. Watching those old BW matches I am just struck by how slow all the units move and how few units there are to control, how few abilities they have to use etc.
Man, if you were a more frequent poster, I would memorialize this post in my profile so that I would never forget the kind of person you are.
On July 04 2013 18:09 Daswollvieh wrote: Not sure what to think of this. May be that Kespa gets more "power" from this, stabilizing their SC2 teams, or it could mean that they concentrate more on LoL and dissolve more SC2 teams (probably not). I just hope this is not somehow used to strengthen their position and further cement the separation of Korean SC2.
You say "probably not", but I'm quite certain they will. It's completely understandable after all too. LoL pulls more then three times the viewer numbers then SC2. For me it's sad, as I really dislike any moba game, but at the same time I've lost some interest in SC2 too because it gets a less and less popular e-sport compared to LoL and Dota. Looking at twitchs viewer numbers, LoL is ALWAYS ahead of SC2 even if a GSL Finals are live and no LoL tournament is running. For me it's saddening, and I feel like everyone telling you it doesn't matter for SC2 are kinda like these guys: + Show Spoiler +
If you're getting tired of sc2 because It's less popular than other games, you probably didn't really like the game that much to begin with. It seems most esports fans don't actually like the games, they just want something that lots of other people like.
This is bullshit. I've spended so much time on SC2. Got from Bronze to Master league because I think it's by far the best game out there, because it's challenging, well balanced, and fun to watch. But one aspect I loved about e-sport was the fact that it was growing so fast. This aspect has gone completely from SC2 esports. In addition to this the prizemoney is getting lower. (not 100% sure about this though, but it definitly feels like it)
On July 04 2013 17:29 Big J wrote: Wohoo, I hope OGN moves completely away from Starcraft2, so that GOM gets to cast WCS alone. Their format, casting and frequency is just so much better than the current WCS/OSL.
That would be the worst thing to happen to SC2.
Not particularly. We fared just fine for 2 years like that.
Oh you so don't get it. You know how small star 2 was in korea during that time? Only hots and ogn/kespa moving in has brought star 2 to a decent level in korea. Gom only may be fine for the foreign audience, but it would be a blow to korean star 2 almost as huge as the max fixing scandal in bw was.
The level hasn't really changed. Star 2 is just as unpopular as it pretty much always been in Korea. It has a niche audience, and if it all goes back to GOM that niche audience will remain. The 'foreign' fanbase is probably the most important for Star 2 anyway. And look at how OGN's stream, with them having all the advantages of having the players on stream, is less than half of GOM's stream.
On July 04 2013 18:09 Daswollvieh wrote: Not sure what to think of this. May be that Kespa gets more "power" from this, stabilizing their SC2 teams, or it could mean that they concentrate more on LoL and dissolve more SC2 teams (probably not). I just hope this is not somehow used to strengthen their position and further cement the separation of Korean SC2.
You say "probably not", but I'm quite certain they will. It's completely understandable after all too. LoL pulls more then three times the viewer numbers then SC2. For me it's sad, as I really dislike any moba game, but at the same time I've lost some interest in SC2 too because it gets a less and less popular e-sport compared to LoL and Dota. Looking at twitchs viewer numbers, LoL is ALWAYS ahead of SC2 even if a GSL Finals are live and no LoL tournament is running. For me it's saddening, and I feel like everyone telling you it doesn't matter for SC2 are kinda like these guys: + Show Spoiler +
If you're getting tired of sc2 because It's less popular than other games, you probably didn't really like the game that much to begin with. It seems most esports fans don't actually like the games, they just want something that lots of other people like.
This is bullshit. I've spended so much time on SC2. Got from Bronze to Master league because I think it's by far the best game out there, because it's challenging, well balanced, and fun to watch. But one aspect I loved about e-sport was the fact that it was growing so fast. This aspect has gone completely from SC2 esports. In addition to this the prizemoney is getting lower. (not 100% sure about this though, but it definitly feels like it)
So you're not happy with sc2 esports unless It's constantly growing so fast? Just watch the games dude. sc2 has grown since HotS came out. It's not doing poorly at all.
I don't know what the deal is with the constant negativity on these forums, It's really getting old. Did you know that Dreamhack Stockholm and Summer were the most viewed DH's of all time for sc2? The record for DH in WoL was 86k for DHW 2011 on a stream that was showing every game, instead of only sc2. Stockholm 2013 had 121k for the finals, Summer 2013 had 110k for the finals(on a monday, not a sunday).
I can post proof if you don't believe me.
Regarding the prize money, WCS alone is giving out 1.6 million this year. I don't think It's lower than 2012 overall but we'll see at the end of the year.
On July 04 2013 18:09 Daswollvieh wrote: Not sure what to think of this. May be that Kespa gets more "power" from this, stabilizing their SC2 teams, or it could mean that they concentrate more on LoL and dissolve more SC2 teams (probably not). I just hope this is not somehow used to strengthen their position and further cement the separation of Korean SC2.
You say "probably not", but I'm quite certain they will. It's completely understandable after all too. LoL pulls more then three times the viewer numbers then SC2. For me it's sad, as I really dislike any moba game, but at the same time I've lost some interest in SC2 too because it gets a less and less popular e-sport compared to LoL and Dota. Looking at twitchs viewer numbers, LoL is ALWAYS ahead of SC2 even if a GSL Finals are live and no LoL tournament is running. For me it's saddening, and I feel like everyone telling you it doesn't matter for SC2 are kinda like these guys: + Show Spoiler +
If you're getting tired of sc2 because It's less popular than other games, you probably didn't really like the game that much to begin with. It seems most esports fans don't actually like the games, they just want something that lots of other people like.
This is bullshit. I've spended so much time on SC2. Got from Bronze to Master league because I think it's by far the best game out there, because it's challenging, well balanced, and fun to watch. But one aspect I loved about e-sport was the fact that it was growing so fast. This aspect has gone completely from SC2 esports. In addition to this the prizemoney is getting lower. (not 100% sure about this though, but it definitly feels like it)
League hasnt grown much either since season 2.This is just a business move to confirm the audience theyalready had in kr.The audience for lol is actually stagnating or declining.You may find it surprinsingly but sc2 and lol actually have a constant audience with sc2 stabilizing at about 100k on twitch while lol stabilizes at about 200k.
@dodger
do not bother with facts.This is going to transform into one of those sc2 is dying threads where doomsayers will post lies to sustain their morbid fantasies of seing sc2 dead while evidence points otherwise.It is pretty useless to talk to people who think viewership going down when in fact every tournament organizer says it is going up.
On July 04 2013 17:29 Big J wrote: Wohoo, I hope OGN moves completely away from Starcraft2, so that GOM gets to cast WCS alone. Their format, casting and frequency is just so much better than the current WCS/OSL.
That would be the worst thing to happen to SC2.
Not particularly. We fared just fine for 2 years like that.
Oh you so don't get it. You know how small star 2 was in korea during that time? Only hots and ogn/kespa moving in has brought star 2 to a decent level in korea. Gom only may be fine for the foreign audience, but it would be a blow to korean star 2 almost as huge as the max fixing scandal in bw was.
The level hasn't really changed. Star 2 is just as unpopular as it pretty much always been in Korea. It has a niche audience, and if it all goes back to GOM that niche audience will remain. The 'foreign' fanbase is probably the most important for Star 2 anyway. And look at how OGN's stream, with them having all the advantages of having the players on stream, is less than half of GOM's stream.
So star 2 going up on afreeca and in pc bang popularity since hots launch doesn't mean shit? OGN couldn't care less about the global audience when they are primarily a korean tv station, whereas gom is 100% online based, you can't even compare that.
honestly i only play sc2 because its the major rts. If there was an alternative in a different universe, i would switch to that asap. but not a fan of mobas..
so the fact that a moba resigns a contract with a company they already had a good contract with in the first placemakes you hate sc2 .Why can not you like sc2 for what it is .
@Alexj
Enlighten me a little bit.what is the difference between proleague and olympus champions beside different format?What will it bring to lol and how will it negatively impact sc2?
@evilfatsh
not you dota2 fans too.............why?what does this have to do with dota 2?You guys already have the 2 million dollar nexon thingy.How does negatively impact you...come on guys
What has this to do with SC2? Seriously, these are the SC2 forums?
Other than that - it's pretty clear that LoL is taking the spot of SCBW in Korea, not SC2. Blizzard failed miserably to spread SC2 in Korea (too high prices, not enough availability in PC bangs, gameplay flaws, etc.)...
Thought I was in the LoL subforum at first (came here from Reddit) and was extremely surprised by the comments, before I realized it's the SC2 section! :D
I always thought KeSPA was already really commited to LoL (besides SC) with CJ Entus, KT Rolster, SKTT1 and now STX Soul/CTU cooperation, also they pushed OGN Champions pretty heavily. Well, here comes another step forward.
So we get tuesdays and thursdays reserved for WCS and the rest of the week reserved for LoL Proleague and Champions? Wonderful news for sc2 fans... in the sc2 forum.
On July 04 2013 19:39 Kontrax wrote: So sad that LoL is more popular than Dota2,,, But i guess the easier game has more followers.
Tell me more about how pro you are at LoL. Nothing on a pro level is easier.
Ofc it is compared to dota. And why are you talking about pro level? He mentioned popularity which is a fact because easy entry level.
easier entry level is something different than being an easy game. Thats why I mentioned that on a pro level no game is easy.
Of course it isn't easy at the pro level. Going up against KeSPA teams who do everything humanly possibly to outskill, out-strategize and generally outclass you is never easy. The competition that LoL now has is insanely hard and cut-throat, which makes the game at the pro level, since it's played as a competitive format, also hard.
On July 04 2013 19:39 Kontrax wrote: So sad that LoL is more popular than Dota2,,, But i guess the easier game has more followers.
Tell me more about how pro you are at LoL. Nothing on a pro level is easier.
Sorry but i don´t play LoL anymore.. Cause one day I played one game of Dota2 and knew this game is by far the better one.
And everyone is complaining about SC2 and how easy it is compared to BW. With Dota2 and LoL i feel the same..
Mhh I didn't know TL was still such a dirty place sometimes, I guess if you rustle the right jimmies anything is possible.
It usually becomes a dirty place whenever you hit that post button in the SC2 General section. Especially if you weren't supposed to post it in the SC2 General section.
Great news for LoL fans, for SC2 fans we can continue to enjoy WCS Korea, and GSTL/SC2PL. We aren't going to get more viewers than a free to play game, and that's fine.
I hope LGIM especially get's to enter PL (if it continues to exist in it's current form) and perhaps MVP too. Let GSTL just disband and give the other teams the chance to get the good players. Hopefully resulting in all good players playing just in one league.
also, I know lots of people probably addressed it, but the kespa teams may or may not be current kespa (eg samsung). The special force leagues certainly had other sponsors (tving, IT bank), could be any sponsor
They better not exclude eSF teams like MVP if they want the full legitimacy for their pro league. MVP Ozone are just way too fucking good, stomping CJ Entus 3-0 last finals. Take that KeSPA!!
On July 04 2013 20:34 N.geNuity wrote: about time, LoL is fucking gigantic in korea
also, I know lots of people probably addressed it, but the kespa teams may or may not be current kespa (eg samsung). The special force leagues certainly had other sponsors (tving, IT bank), could be any sponsor
Wouldn't surprise me if they just take the old teams, seeing how we already have CJ Entus, KT Rolster and SKTT1 teams
On July 04 2013 19:25 theking1 wrote: @spikestarcraft
so the fact that a moba resigns a contract with a company they already had a good contract with in the first placemakes you hate sc2 .Why can not you like sc2 for what it is .
@Alexj
Enlighten me a little bit.what is the difference between proleague and olympus champions beside different format?What will it bring to lol and how will it negatively impact sc2?
@evilfatsh
not you dota2 fans too.............why?what does this have to do with dota 2?You guys already have the 2 million dollar nexon thingy.How does negatively impact you...come on guys
how doesnt it? we all know kespa is what makes koreans pro scenes so god damn pro. so what if we have a big tournament sponsored by nexon? whos gonna win it? "pro" korean teams that would get owned by any pro b team from china/eu? kespa was the best bet for all aspiring dota 2 progamers, and now that it has been ruled out dota players have no alternative but to play in teams that probably dont have the knowledge nor the experience required to become top level. considering the fact that china and eu started playing the game YEARS before koreans did, it just got infinitely harder for koreans to rival the chinese and the western community.
On July 04 2013 14:14 Empirimancer wrote: Sometimes I try to imagine how popular SC2 would be in Korea if it had been as accessible as Brood War in internet cafes and if bnet 2.0 had been well designed.
Then I get depressed and I think about something else.
lol the only way sc2 would have ever reached the popularity of bw if it became free2play or if people found a way to pirate it at no profit to blizzard like bw.
it is nearly oO as for now hots is free in the internet cafes from korea and also other stuff ... its just not that easy lol is so rnd everyone can play it with 5apm and do something there so its always more popular btw why is this in sc2 section ? so much lol
On July 04 2013 14:14 Empirimancer wrote: Sometimes I try to imagine how popular SC2 would be in Korea if it had been as accessible as Brood War in internet cafes and if bnet 2.0 had been well designed.
Then I get depressed and I think about something else.
Sometimes I try to imagine if Blizz dev team didn't make Starcraft 2 so noob friendly to keep the competitive level harsh just like BW. Surely a high percentage of Pro Koreans would've have switched to Starcraft 2 keeping the player base and viewer base the same to the new game.
Agreed. With League of Legends it has become apparent that any game that caters towards the casual audience is going to crash and burn. I bet this is why nobody is playing LoL anymore while Dota 2 has the biggest player base of any esport game.
On July 04 2013 14:25 Chexx wrote: And here we are on TL where the majority is still unbelievable angry about lol and think it is a games for noobs.
Not at all, but if you don't play LoL it is a terrible spectator esport. Not the same with SC2.
That is completely subjective and will probably result in a lot of biased discussion.
LoL is easy to understand by watching it, you may not grasp what ADC, Jungler and what not is at first glimpse, but its really easy to see if someone did something "good" and who the winning team is.
On July 04 2013 14:04 larse wrote: Riot's representative said that holding global tournaments in Korea is like holding world cup in Brazil--it's crazily good.
On July 04 2013 19:39 Kontrax wrote: So sad that LoL is more popular than Dota2,,, But i guess the easier game has more followers.
It depends, some people find dota easier, some find lol easier. Matter of opinion.
I would say LoL being easier at the entry level is a fact, getting good is a different story though.
Its not a bad thing either, being accessible is one of the games biggest draws so if anything more games should try to be like it.
It is a big pro for a game to be easily accessible. And LoL has a good skill scaling to the top, it's not that a decent SC2 player comes in and owns everyone. It's fun and you see the skill in the play of those korean pros.
On July 04 2013 14:25 Chexx wrote: And here we are on TL where the majority is still unbelievable angry about lol and think it is a games for noobs.
Not at all, but if you don't play LoL it is a terrible spectator esport. Not the same with SC2.
IDK, I watched a OGN game of LoL and immediately went to download it and now I have a lot of fun playing it. It was just so crazy and interesting.
Besides, if Kespa makes a lot of money with LoL, maybe that will help relieve some of the burden on the SC2 guys.
Same here, but I did have my little brother explain things while watching because the casters don't really do a good job explaining things for noobs IMO. At least the matches I was watching.
On July 04 2013 21:48 Garnet wrote: I hope LoL get crushed by Dota 2 one day.
Dota 2 is pretty big in China right? so watch that instead?^^
Actually, China has just received its official Chinese DotA 2 client, making the Chinese playerbase rather small at the moment.
Also, the Chinese esports association (if I recall the name correctly), ACE, which is spearheaded by a World Elite-representative (the team doesn't have a DotA 2 team) has made it so that the elite Chinese teams can't compete in tournaments that have a prizepool below a certain amount of dollars, making the scene more insular and the top teams unable to compete as much as they're used to.
When talking about the future, they hope LoL will be like a professional sport to attract more investment and provide more insurance to professional players. Riot's representative said that holding global tournaments in Korea is like holding world cup in Brazil--it's crazily good. They hope regions will have more cooperation.
don't know if that comparison was well chosen if one looks at Brazilian riots concerning the world cup atm
On July 04 2013 14:25 Chexx wrote: And here we are on TL where the majority is still unbelievable angry about lol and think it is a games for noobs.
Not at all, but if you don't play LoL it is a terrible spectator esport. Not the same with SC2.
IDK, I watched a OGN game of LoL and immediately went to download it and now I have a lot of fun playing it. It was just so crazy and interesting.
Besides, if Kespa makes a lot of money with LoL, maybe that will help relieve some of the burden on the SC2 guys.
Same here, but I did have my little brother explain things while watching because the casters don't really do a good job explaining things for noobs IMO. At least the matches I was watching.
Normally EU/NA LCS are doing a good job to explain the games for LoL newcomer. OGN is directed more towards hardcore LoL Fans.
About the Brazilian comparison I understood what they wanted to say but of the current situation over there. It wasnt the best comparison
On July 04 2013 20:41 UmberBane wrote: They better not exclude eSF teams like MVP if they want the full legitimacy for their pro league. MVP Ozone are just way too fucking good, stomping CJ Entus 3-0 last finals. Take that KeSPA!!
Just looked that up. So MVPs LoL team has a title sponsor while their SC2 team cant even afford to send DRG to Dreamhack. Makes me fucking sad. Also what a terrible businessman MVPs owner is.
I wonder if lol's success has to do with ANYTHING OTHER than the fact that it's free to play... fooling a bunch of kids who don't know better. Honestly can't stand the game, playing a bunch of cartoony characters on shitty graphics with no campaign and like 5 minute queue times and requirement of literally no skill at all in terms of speed and multitasking... like... why do people play this garbage. If it's gotta be team based competitive gaming, I'd even prefer FPS over this moba garbage
On July 04 2013 20:41 UmberBane wrote: They better not exclude eSF teams like MVP if they want the full legitimacy for their pro league. MVP Ozone are just way too fucking good, stomping CJ Entus 3-0 last finals. Take that KeSPA!!
Just looked that up. So MVPs LoL team has a title sponsor while their SC2 team cant even afford to send DRG to Dreamhack. Makes me fucking sad. Also what a terrible businessman MVPs owner is.
On July 04 2013 20:41 UmberBane wrote: They better not exclude eSF teams like MVP if they want the full legitimacy for their pro league. MVP Ozone are just way too fucking good, stomping CJ Entus 3-0 last finals. Take that KeSPA!!
Just looked that up. So MVPs LoL team has a title sponsor while their SC2 team cant even afford to send DRG to Dreamhack. Makes me fucking sad. Also what a terrible businessman MVPs owner is.
where do people get this information?
Drg was supposed to go but had to cancel because money.
On July 04 2013 20:41 UmberBane wrote: They better not exclude eSF teams like MVP if they want the full legitimacy for their pro league. MVP Ozone are just way too fucking good, stomping CJ Entus 3-0 last finals. Take that KeSPA!!
Just looked that up. So MVPs LoL team has a title sponsor while their SC2 team cant even afford to send DRG to Dreamhack. Makes me fucking sad. Also what a terrible businessman MVPs owner is.
where do people get this information?
Drg was supposed to go but had to cancel because money.
On July 04 2013 20:41 UmberBane wrote: They better not exclude eSF teams like MVP if they want the full legitimacy for their pro league. MVP Ozone are just way too fucking good, stomping CJ Entus 3-0 last finals. Take that KeSPA!!
Just looked that up. So MVPs LoL team has a title sponsor while their SC2 team cant even afford to send DRG to Dreamhack. Makes me fucking sad. Also what a terrible businessman MVPs owner is.
where do people get this information?
Drg was supposed to go but had to cancel because money.
On July 04 2013 20:41 UmberBane wrote: They better not exclude eSF teams like MVP if they want the full legitimacy for their pro league. MVP Ozone are just way too fucking good, stomping CJ Entus 3-0 last finals. Take that KeSPA!!
Just looked that up. So MVPs LoL team has a title sponsor while their SC2 team cant even afford to send DRG to Dreamhack. Makes me fucking sad. Also what a terrible businessman MVPs owner is.
where do people get this information?
Drg was supposed to go but had to cancel because money.
On July 04 2013 20:41 UmberBane wrote: They better not exclude eSF teams like MVP if they want the full legitimacy for their pro league. MVP Ozone are just way too fucking good, stomping CJ Entus 3-0 last finals. Take that KeSPA!!
Just looked that up. So MVPs LoL team has a title sponsor while their SC2 team cant even afford to send DRG to Dreamhack. Makes me fucking sad. Also what a terrible businessman MVPs owner is.
where do people get this information?
Drg was supposed to go but had to cancel because money.
On July 04 2013 20:41 UmberBane wrote: They better not exclude eSF teams like MVP if they want the full legitimacy for their pro league. MVP Ozone are just way too fucking good, stomping CJ Entus 3-0 last finals. Take that KeSPA!!
Just looked that up. So MVPs LoL team has a title sponsor while their SC2 team cant even afford to send DRG to Dreamhack. Makes me fucking sad. Also what a terrible businessman MVPs owner is.
where do people get this information?
Drg was supposed to go but had to cancel because money.
Money wouldnt have been an issue if Ozone sponsored the whole team and not just the LoL squad, thats just bad negotiation from the owners side.
Great news. If Dota2 wasn't supported by Valve, who everybody loves, it would already be a dead game. Glad SPL & Kespa were smart and picked up the better MOBA game. Maybe it's time for TL to actually pick up and fully support League?
On July 04 2013 20:41 UmberBane wrote: They better not exclude eSF teams like MVP if they want the full legitimacy for their pro league. MVP Ozone are just way too fucking good, stomping CJ Entus 3-0 last finals. Take that KeSPA!!
Just looked that up. So MVPs LoL team has a title sponsor while their SC2 team cant even afford to send DRG to Dreamhack. Makes me fucking sad. Also what a terrible businessman MVPs owner is.
where do people get this information?
Drg was supposed to go but had to cancel because money.
Money wouldnt have been an issue if Ozone sponsored the whole team and not just the LoL squad, thats just bad negotiation from the owners side.
I forget what team it was, but it was a very unknown team that nobody cared about - they had a small sc2 squad with a (supposedly) good LoL team. Their sponsor didn't want to give much money towards their sc2 players, but was really interested in the LoL team, so they cut the sc2 players off the team to close the deal. Sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do.
Not that I'm happy with that decision, but it is what it is
I really don't get LoL as an e-sport. To me it's unwatchable : - Too long to start (imagine a soccer match where there's a wall in the middle that's raised around 10 minutes into the game) - Action can happen at 4 different places (imagine a soccer match with 4 balls) - Too long (you thought TvT WoL were long games? Think again.) How are they gonna do BO3? Starting around noon?
And don't get me started on the colors. Well that's just me I guess.
On July 05 2013 00:09 SidianTheBard wrote: Great news. If Dota2 wasn't supported by Valve, who everybody loves, it would already be a dead game. Glad SPL & Kespa were smart and picked up the better MOBA game. Maybe it's time for TL to actually pick up and fully support League?
Yea I agree with this.
Would be nice if TL would keep up with the pace. LoL gives me the chills when I play and watch.
On July 05 2013 00:09 SidianTheBard wrote: Great news. If Dota2 wasn't supported by Valve, who everybody loves, it would already be a dead game. Glad SPL & Kespa were smart and picked up the better MOBA game. Maybe it's time for TL to actually pick up and fully support League?
if lol wasnt supported by riot, who is filthy rich, it would already be a dead game. ???
On July 05 2013 00:15 ant-1 wrote: I really don't get LoL as an e-sport. To me it's unwatchable : - Too long to start (imagine a soccer match where there's a wall in the middle that's raised around 10 minutes into the game) - Action can happen at 4 different places (imagine a soccer match with 4 balls) - Too long (you thought TvT WoL were long games? Think again.) How are they gonna do BO3? Starting around noon?
And don't get me started on the colors. Well that's just me I guess.
Point 2 can easily happen in SC2 or Dota2, too? The standard lol game is not much longer than sc2 Oo
On July 05 2013 00:09 SidianTheBard wrote: Great news. If Dota2 wasn't supported by Valve, who everybody loves, it would already be a dead game. Glad SPL & Kespa were smart and picked up the better MOBA game. Maybe it's time for TL to actually pick up and fully support League?
if lol wasnt supported by riot, who is filthy rich, it would already be a dead game. ???
i didnt make that comment based on my dislike for lol. it was to show him that his logic is stupid. although if you must know, my personal reasons for hating lol is cause i just find it so much worse than dota in so many aspects. also i dont like riot as a company
When talking about the future, they hope LoL will be like a professional sport to attract more investment and provide more insurance to professional players. Riot's representative said that holding global tournaments in Korea is like holding world cup in Brazil--it's crazily good. They hope regions will have more cooperation.
Well no wonder really, people always going on about SC2 best esport and this and that but dont watch events like WCS KR or SPL because they can't be bothered.. SPL barely gets 10k viewers and it's like one of the most skilled leagues in Starcraft 2 atm.. if people don't want SPL to go away for SC2 they need to actually tune in and watch the streams.. it really annoys me how people always go on about sc2 best game LoL is bad .. but LoL players actually watch tournaments while sc2 players just find out the results on reddit or liquipedia while not watching any tournaments.. always on twitch chat u can tell the people that purposely have adblocks on and this is why SPL is probably not profitable at all for OGN.. if people actually sucked it up and disabled adblocks for some 30 second ads.. stopped complaining about casters and actually tuned in to watch the best games around and watched FOR the games then OGN would see starcraft 2 profitable and it would be more succesful there
On July 05 2013 00:09 SidianTheBard wrote: Great news. If Dota2 wasn't supported by Valve, who everybody loves, it would already be a dead game. Glad SPL & Kespa were smart and picked up the better MOBA game. Maybe it's time for TL to actually pick up and fully support League?
if lol wasnt supported by riot, who is filthy rich, it would already be a dead game. ???
Yes, the FREE to play game made Riot filthy rich. You know why? Probably because of the millions upon millions of people that support it. I'd imagine saying Dota2 supported by VALVE makes a lot of people jump on that boat because it's Valve and they've proven how amazing of a company they are.
hopefully they change up the situation where teams cut/add their LoL teams like people change clothes
it was sad how they dropped SKT1 #1 after less than a year.
if MVP and LGIM switch over i'm curious as to whether eSF will look to add teams for GSTL or not. i know FXOpen has a LoL team (but not a korean one) and i would assume it wouldn't take much effort for teams like Startale (already had one) and NSH (they can probably find five people at the college campus that play LoL), so i wonder if the eSF might look at adding a league of their own or if they want to continue playing in the OGN/NLB structure assuming kespa doesn't lock them out, and i doubt kespa has the power to make OGN Champions exclusive because of the amount of amateur teams that get promoted every year via NLB.
also i'm wondering if Najin emFire might join KeSPA for LoL. i know they don't have a SC2 team but it's not like they didn't have special forces teams that were SF only.
On July 05 2013 00:04 havok55 wrote: You'd think Koreans would favor a more skillful MOBA like Dota2 over LoL.
I guess LoL has already taken too big of a foothold there.
dota2 is just now getting released in korea via nexxon
and you'd think koreans would favor a more skillful rts like BW over SC2, but that's way too much of a simplified explanation for the transition to SC2, just as it's a too simplified explanation for why LoL is doing so well over there (and from a global standpoint) over DoTA
as someone who plays both doter and league i really don't think "oh it takes more skill to play/the other game is too casual!" is a viable critique anymore in the first place, because the gaming market as a whole has changed way too much for that to be considered a selling point for anything but an extremely niche "hardcore gamer" market.
On July 05 2013 00:09 SidianTheBard wrote: Great news. If Dota2 wasn't supported by Valve, who everybody loves, it would already be a dead game. Glad SPL & Kespa were smart and picked up the better MOBA game. Maybe it's time for TL to actually pick up and fully support League?
if lol wasnt supported by riot, who is filthy rich, it would already be a dead game. ???
Yeah, I mean, a game that gets upwards 200k viewers would suddenly die if the developers decided to not spend more money on it. Obviously sponsors would have no interest reaching out to such a number of people.
I guess that is why HOT6iX stopped sponsoring GSL and now sponsors OGN Champions instead.
Why is that in the SC2 forums ? Who cares about what KeSPA will do with LoL ? Now LoL is what the cool kids play, but still there is LoL forum and you can post about it there.
I think this is better LOL AND SC2 are the way to go a team game and a 1v1 game, more people will know about SC2 because of the pro league.
On July 05 2013 00:36 suicideyear wrote: hopefully they change up the situation where teams cut/add their LoL teams like people change clothes
it was sad how they dropped SKT1 #1 after less than a year.
if MVP and LGIM switch over i'm curious as to whether eSF will look to add teams for GSTL or not. i know FXOpen has a LoL team (but not a korean one) and i would assume it wouldn't take much effort for teams like Startale (already had one) and NSH (they can probably find five people at the college campus that play LoL), so i wonder if the eSF might look at adding a league of their own or if they want to continue playing in the OGN/NLB structure assuming kespa doesn't lock them out, and i doubt kespa has the power to make OGN Champions exclusive because of the amount of amateur teams that get promoted every year via NLB.
also i'm wondering if Najin emFire might join KeSPA for LoL. i know they don't have a SC2 team but it's not like they didn't have special forces teams that were SF only.
On July 05 2013 00:04 havok55 wrote: You'd think Koreans would favor a more skillful MOBA like Dota2 over LoL.
I guess LoL has already taken too big of a foothold there.
dota2 is just now getting released in korea via nexxon
and you'd think koreans would favor a more skillful rts like BW over SC2, but that's way too much of a simplified explanation for the transition to SC2, just as it's a too simplified explanation for why LoL is doing so well over there (and from a global standpoint) over DoTA
as someone who plays both doter and league i really don't think "oh it takes more skill to play/the other game is too casual!" is a viable critique anymore in the first place, because the gaming market as a whole has changed way too much for that to be considered a selling point for anything but an extremely niche "hardcore gamer" market.
i think it has to do with the graphics many kids cry cuz the graphics on bw are ugly :/
On July 05 2013 00:09 SidianTheBard wrote: Great news. If Dota2 wasn't supported by Valve, who everybody loves, it would already be a dead game. Glad SPL & Kespa were smart and picked up the better MOBA game. Maybe it's time for TL to actually pick up and fully support League?
if lol wasnt supported by riot, who is filthy rich, it would already be a dead game. ???
That makes no sense. Why do you think Riot is filthy rich, if not for LoL players enjoying the game enough to spend a ton of money on it?
On July 05 2013 00:42 Pr0wler wrote: Why is that in the SC2 forums ? Who cares about what KeSPA will do with LoL ? Now LoL is what the cool kids play, but still there is LoL forum and you can post about it there.
Couse it makes highly probable that the new teams will also have sc2 divisions.
On July 05 2013 00:09 SidianTheBard wrote: Great news. If Dota2 wasn't supported by Valve, who everybody loves, it would already be a dead game. Glad SPL & Kespa were smart and picked up the better MOBA game. Maybe it's time for TL to actually pick up and fully support League?
if lol wasnt supported by riot, who is filthy rich, it would already be a dead game. ???
That makes no sense. Why do you think Riot is filthy rich, if not for LoL players enjoying the game enough to spend a ton of money on it?
Erm you do realize that the game flopped when it came out? If Riot wouldn't have put in a shit tone of money (there is a chinese investment firm behind riot afterall) into marketing (which does involve everything they do in esports) the game wouldn't have more players than hon nowadays. Of course creating the easiest possible game in your genre always helps nowadays (which not only lol but also cod shows), but riot basically got their game to what it is by pumping in a ton of money. And if you would just remove that money overnight the entire scene would collapse as pretty much everything is run with riot money, and thanks to lcs not including any other tournaments (they are fixing that by touring) they are so irrelevant at this point that the scene would just disappear. You need to understand that esports is just a marketing tool for riot.
On July 05 2013 00:09 SidianTheBard wrote: Great news. If Dota2 wasn't supported by Valve, who everybody loves, it would already be a dead game. Glad SPL & Kespa were smart and picked up the better MOBA game. Maybe it's time for TL to actually pick up and fully support League?
if lol wasnt supported by riot, who is filthy rich, it would already be a dead game. ???
That makes no sense. Why do you think Riot is filthy rich, if not for LoL players enjoying the game enough to spend a ton of money on it?
Tencent ? Lobbying like mad ?
Well modern e-sports doesn't look like the e-sports I imagined when I was young. From bw, w3, quake to LoL and WoT what a regression.
On July 05 2013 00:42 Requiem- wrote: I think this is better LOL AND SC2 are the way to go a team game and a 1v1 game, more people will know about SC2 because of the pro league.
On July 05 2013 00:36 suicideyear wrote: hopefully they change up the situation where teams cut/add their LoL teams like people change clothes
it was sad how they dropped SKT1 #1 after less than a year.
if MVP and LGIM switch over i'm curious as to whether eSF will look to add teams for GSTL or not. i know FXOpen has a LoL team (but not a korean one) and i would assume it wouldn't take much effort for teams like Startale (already had one) and NSH (they can probably find five people at the college campus that play LoL), so i wonder if the eSF might look at adding a league of their own or if they want to continue playing in the OGN/NLB structure assuming kespa doesn't lock them out, and i doubt kespa has the power to make OGN Champions exclusive because of the amount of amateur teams that get promoted every year via NLB.
also i'm wondering if Najin emFire might join KeSPA for LoL. i know they don't have a SC2 team but it's not like they didn't have special forces teams that were SF only.
On July 05 2013 00:04 havok55 wrote: You'd think Koreans would favor a more skillful MOBA like Dota2 over LoL.
I guess LoL has already taken too big of a foothold there.
dota2 is just now getting released in korea via nexxon
and you'd think koreans would favor a more skillful rts like BW over SC2, but that's way too much of a simplified explanation for the transition to SC2, just as it's a too simplified explanation for why LoL is doing so well over there (and from a global standpoint) over DoTA
as someone who plays both doter and league i really don't think "oh it takes more skill to play/the other game is too casual!" is a viable critique anymore in the first place, because the gaming market as a whole has changed way too much for that to be considered a selling point for anything but an extremely niche "hardcore gamer" market.
i think it has to do with the graphics many kids cry cuz the graphics on bw are ugly :/
I only have word to describe this response: durrrrrr. The knuckleheads don't even try anymore. -_-
On July 05 2013 00:42 Pr0wler wrote: Why is that in the SC2 forums ? Who cares about what KeSPA will do with LoL ? Now LoL is what the cool kids play, but still there is LoL forum and you can post about it there.
Couse it makes highly probable that the new teams will also have sc2 divisions.
They fail to realize that a LoL PL would eat up a lot of TV/coverage time as well. OGN already has their own league (this has been said several times already-- not our fault if those choose not to read a few of the responses in the thread for post cred), so it does actually impact the SC2 coverage to a certain extent in Korea.
... why is this in sc2 section its about lol. if the teams that might join will be able to play sc2 in PL then cool but unless i cant read i didnt see it say that anywhere soo yea what a let down thought something cool happened
On July 05 2013 01:05 starslayer wrote: ... why is this in sc2 section its about lol. if the teams that might join will be able to play sc2 in PL then cool but unless i cant read i didnt see it anywhere soo yea what a let down thought something cool happened
Not even a few minutes after my (post, sure I just edited it) and lmao. Come on guys seriously. Use your heads.
On July 05 2013 00:09 SidianTheBard wrote: Great news. If Dota2 wasn't supported by Valve, who everybody loves, it would already be a dead game. Glad SPL & Kespa were smart and picked up the better MOBA game. Maybe it's time for TL to actually pick up and fully support League?
if lol wasnt supported by riot, who is filthy rich, it would already be a dead game. ???
Yes, the FREE to play game made Riot filthy rich. You know why? Probably because of the millions upon millions of people that support it. I'd imagine saying Dota2 supported by VALVE makes a lot of people jump on that boat because it's Valve and they've proven how amazing of a company they are.
this comment is so ignorant its not even funny. dota was huge before lol was even made, the only reason people started lol was because it had "better graphics" and was considerably easier, which attracted the nerds who didnt care about gameplay to start with, and then riot forced their way into gaming markets by splashing cash. if you honestly think lol is the reason why riot is rich then you are deluded. riot was rich to start with and thats how they attracted players for their game, by spending money. and how is lol a free to play game if you have to pretty much buy champions and runes? i dont want to turn this thread into a lol vs dota discussion so lets stop it here, however you really need to get your facts straight.
On July 05 2013 00:09 SidianTheBard wrote: Great news. If Dota2 wasn't supported by Valve, who everybody loves, it would already be a dead game. Glad SPL & Kespa were smart and picked up the better MOBA game. Maybe it's time for TL to actually pick up and fully support League?
if lol wasnt supported by riot, who is filthy rich, it would already be a dead game. ???
That makes no sense. Why do you think Riot is filthy rich, if not for LoL players enjoying the game enough to spend a ton of money on it?
Erm you do realize that the game flopped when it came out? If Riot wouldn't have put in a shit tone of money (there is a chinese investment firm behind riot afterall) into marketing (which does involve everything they do in esports) the game wouldn't have more players than hon nowadays. Of course creating the easiest possible game in your genre always helps nowadays (which not only lol but also cod shows), but riot basically got their game to what it is by pumping in a ton of money. And if you would just remove that money overnight the entire scene would collapse as pretty much everything is run with riot money, and thanks to lcs not including any other tournaments (they are fixing that by touring) they are so irrelevant at this point that the scene would just disappear. You need to understand that esports is just a marketing tool for riot.
Tencent bought Riot in 2011 for $400M, which was not actually that big of a shit ton, HoN was already a sinking ship by then because all the bad decision S2 made.
Riot use player's money to pump back to the game, increase the game quality, organize the tournaments, I don't see how that's bad, should them just keep all the money and only do $1M tournament a year like Valve?
On July 05 2013 00:09 SidianTheBard wrote: Great news. If Dota2 wasn't supported by Valve, who everybody loves, it would already be a dead game. Glad SPL & Kespa were smart and picked up the better MOBA game. Maybe it's time for TL to actually pick up and fully support League?
if lol wasnt supported by riot, who is filthy rich, it would already be a dead game. ???
Yes, the FREE to play game made Riot filthy rich. You know why? Probably because of the millions upon millions of people that support it. I'd imagine saying Dota2 supported by VALVE makes a lot of people jump on that boat because it's Valve and they've proven how amazing of a company they are.
this comment is so ignorant its not even funny. dota was huge before lol was even made, the only reason people started lol was because it had "better graphics" and was considerably easier, which attracted the nerds who didnt care about gameplay to start with, and then riot forced their way into gaming markets by splashing cash. if you honestly think lol is the reason why riot is rich then you are deluded. riot was rich to start with and thats how they attracted players for their game, by spending money. and how is lol a free to play game if you have to pretty much buy champions and runes? i dont want to turn this thread into a lol vs dota discussion so lets stop it here, however you really need to get your facts straight.
On July 05 2013 00:09 SidianTheBard wrote: Great news. If Dota2 wasn't supported by Valve, who everybody loves, it would already be a dead game. Glad SPL & Kespa were smart and picked up the better MOBA game. Maybe it's time for TL to actually pick up and fully support League?
if lol wasnt supported by riot, who is filthy rich, it would already be a dead game. ???
Yes, the FREE to play game made Riot filthy rich. You know why? Probably because of the millions upon millions of people that support it. I'd imagine saying Dota2 supported by VALVE makes a lot of people jump on that boat because it's Valve and they've proven how amazing of a company they are.
this comment is so ignorant its not even funny. dota was huge before lol was even made, the only reason people started lol was because it had "better graphics" and was considerably easier, which attracted the nerds who didnt care about gameplay to start with, and then riot forced their way into gaming markets by splashing cash. if you honestly think lol is the reason why riot is rich then you are deluded. riot was rich to start with and thats how they attracted players for their game, by spending money. and how is lol a free to play game if you have to pretty much buy champions and runes? i dont want to turn this thread into a lol vs dota discussion so lets stop it here, however you really need to get your facts straight.
"you really need to get your facts straight", you do realize you cant buy runes with IRL cash right? also you are able to buy champions with ingame-cash, so if anything you are the delusional one here atm.
On July 04 2013 20:41 UmberBane wrote: They better not exclude eSF teams like MVP if they want the full legitimacy for their pro league. MVP Ozone are just way too fucking good, stomping CJ Entus 3-0 last finals. Take that KeSPA!!
Just looked that up. So MVPs LoL team has a title sponsor while their SC2 team cant even afford to send DRG to Dreamhack. Makes me fucking sad. Also what a terrible businessman MVPs owner is.
where do people get this information?
Drg was supposed to go but had to cancel because money.
Money wouldnt have been an issue if Ozone sponsored the whole team and not just the LoL squad, thats just bad negotiation from the owners side.
I forget what team it was, but it was a very unknown team that nobody cared about - they had a small sc2 squad with a (supposedly) good LoL team. Their sponsor didn't want to give much money towards their sc2 players, but was really interested in the LoL team, so they cut the sc2 players off the team to close the deal. Sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do.
Not that I'm happy with that decision, but it is what it is
Makes sense but I still think you should stand your ground in that sort of situation. Having one half of your team title sponsored while the other half struggles really devalues your team as a whole.
On July 05 2013 01:05 starslayer wrote: ... why is this in sc2 section its about lol. if the teams that might join will be able to play sc2 in PL then cool but unless i cant read i didnt see it anywhere soo yea what a let down thought something cool happened
Not even a few minutes after my (post, sure I just edited it) and lmao. Come on guys seriously. Use your heads.
.... whats that even mean i said if the team that join play sc2 that would be cool but it doesnt say that so im not getting my hopes up
On July 05 2013 00:09 SidianTheBard wrote: Great news. If Dota2 wasn't supported by Valve, who everybody loves, it would already be a dead game. Glad SPL & Kespa were smart and picked up the better MOBA game. Maybe it's time for TL to actually pick up and fully support League?
if lol wasnt supported by riot, who is filthy rich, it would already be a dead game. ???
Yes, the FREE to play game made Riot filthy rich. You know why? Probably because of the millions upon millions of people that support it. I'd imagine saying Dota2 supported by VALVE makes a lot of people jump on that boat because it's Valve and they've proven how amazing of a company they are.
this comment is so ignorant its not even funny. dota was huge before lol was even made, the only reason people started lol was because it had "better graphics" and was considerably easier, which attracted the nerds who didnt care about gameplay to start with, and then riot forced their way into gaming markets by splashing cash. if you honestly think lol is the reason why riot is rich then you are deluded. riot was rich to start with and thats how they attracted players for their game, by spending money. and how is lol a free to play game if you have to pretty much buy champions and runes? i dont want to turn this thread into a lol vs dota discussion so lets stop it here, however you really need to get your facts straight.
I'm fine stopping before you dig yourself an even deeper hole.
On July 05 2013 00:09 SidianTheBard wrote: Great news. If Dota2 wasn't supported by Valve, who everybody loves, it would already be a dead game. Glad SPL & Kespa were smart and picked up the better MOBA game. Maybe it's time for TL to actually pick up and fully support League?
if lol wasnt supported by riot, who is filthy rich, it would already be a dead game. ???
Yes, the FREE to play game made Riot filthy rich. You know why? Probably because of the millions upon millions of people that support it. I'd imagine saying Dota2 supported by VALVE makes a lot of people jump on that boat because it's Valve and they've proven how amazing of a company they are.
this comment is so ignorant its not even funny. dota was huge before lol was even made, the only reason people started lol was because it had "better graphics" and was considerably easier, which attracted the nerds who didnt care about gameplay to start with, and then riot forced their way into gaming markets by splashing cash. if you honestly think lol is the reason why riot is rich then you are deluded. riot was rich to start with and thats how they attracted players for their game, by spending money. and how is lol a free to play game if you have to pretty much buy champions and runes? i dont want to turn this thread into a lol vs dota discussion so lets stop it here, however you really need to get your facts straight.
"you really need to get your facts straight", you do realize you cant buy runes with IRL cash right? also you are able to buy champions with ingame-cash, so if anything you are the delusional one here atm.
Who are you kidding ? I've played like 500 games of lol, and I don't even have 1/3 of the total pool. You can't have access to the full game without going by the cashshop.
On July 05 2013 01:15 geokilla wrote: Wolf mentioned on Twitter that his is going to be bad for League of Legends in the long run. Any reason why?
KeSPA assuming full control like they did with BW in Korea would the only thing I can think of. Even then, I doubt Riot is going to just let them do that without any interference.
its actually very easy to know how LoL got big in korea: n00bs said chaos (korean dota) was too hard and bw was too hard so they went to LoL (turn on eng subs)
which this short little series (3 episodes + first finals) also explains how LoL was totally a conspiracy by OGN in korea
On July 05 2013 01:05 starslayer wrote: ... why is this in sc2 section its about lol. if the teams that might join will be able to play sc2 in PL then cool but unless i cant read i didnt see it anywhere soo yea what a let down thought something cool happened
Not even a few minutes after my (post, sure I just edited it) and lmao. Come on guys seriously. Use your heads.
.... whats that even mean i said if the team that join play sc2 that would be cool but it doesnt say that so im not getting my hopes up
Did you even read my post? I thought I was pretty clear as to why this is newsworthy to this section. It directly impacts the broadcast schedule of both games. We're not going to be mixing SF2 with SC2 like they did with BW. That's just as bad as Franken League, lol. The major players recruited not only one team but two. This League will stand alone on itself.
On July 05 2013 00:09 SidianTheBard wrote: Great news. If Dota2 wasn't supported by Valve, who everybody loves, it would already be a dead game. Glad SPL & Kespa were smart and picked up the better MOBA game. Maybe it's time for TL to actually pick up and fully support League?
#deadgame im glad they picked up LoL and not dota. I mean champions have 4abilities + 1 unique passive EACH. its very complex.
On July 05 2013 00:09 SidianTheBard wrote: Great news. If Dota2 wasn't supported by Valve, who everybody loves, it would already be a dead game. Glad SPL & Kespa were smart and picked up the better MOBA game. Maybe it's time for TL to actually pick up and fully support League?
if lol wasnt supported by riot, who is filthy rich, it would already be a dead game. ???
Yes, the FREE to play game made Riot filthy rich. You know why? Probably because of the millions upon millions of people that support it. I'd imagine saying Dota2 supported by VALVE makes a lot of people jump on that boat because it's Valve and they've proven how amazing of a company they are.
this comment is so ignorant its not even funny. dota was huge before lol was even made, the only reason people started lol was because it had "better graphics" and was considerably easier, which attracted the nerds who didnt care about gameplay to start with, and then riot forced their way into gaming markets by splashing cash. if you honestly think lol is the reason why riot is rich then you are deluded. riot was rich to start with and thats how they attracted players for their game, by spending money. and how is lol a free to play game if you have to pretty much buy champions and runes? i dont want to turn this thread into a lol vs dota discussion so lets stop it here, however you really need to get your facts straight.
"you really need to get your facts straight", you do realize you cant buy runes with IRL cash right? also you are able to buy champions with ingame-cash, so if anything you are the delusional one here atm.
yeah if you want to play like 2000 games? huge investment JUST so you can have access to the entire champion pool. i have multiple friends in korea who claim to have spent over $100 just so they can access all the heroes.
On July 05 2013 01:19 N.geNuity wrote: its actually very easy to know how LoL got big in korea: n00bs said chaos (korean dota) was too hard and bw was too hard so they went to LoL (turn on eng subs)
More like society is leaning more towards games that are easy to get in and out of from a noncompetitive level. LoL is a very social game (both a good and bad thing -- hopefully you play with a lot of friends!). Remember when we ripped apart Blizzard when they first announced SC2. We spoke about everything from auto-mine, to MBS, etc. all that jazz. Times are always going to change and f2p/mobas have been doing pretty darn well for quite some time. It's a completely different market though and they have to worry about other things. Fortunately pirating isn't on their to-do list.
On July 05 2013 00:42 Pr0wler wrote: Why is that in the SC2 forums ? Who cares about what KeSPA will do with LoL ? Now LoL is what the cool kids play, but still there is LoL forum and you can post about it there.
Couse it makes highly probable that the new teams will also have sc2 divisions.
They fail to realize that a LoL PL would eat up a lot of TV/coverage time as well. OGN already has their own league (this has been said several times already-- not our fault if those choose not to read a few of the responses in the thread for post cred), so it does actually impact the SC2 coverage to a certain extent in Korea.
Yeah, but the OP says nothing about SC2 at all. Now we can make assumptions that it may affect SC2 in some way, but I still don't think it should be in this forum. When we have a news article that says "SC2 tv time cut in half because of LoL PL" it's place is here, but this one should be in LoL forum. Now this thread is full of LoL bashing, SC2 bashing, BW bashing etc, etc...
On July 05 2013 00:42 Pr0wler wrote: Why is that in the SC2 forums ? Who cares about what KeSPA will do with LoL ? Now LoL is what the cool kids play, but still there is LoL forum and you can post about it there.
Couse it makes highly probable that the new teams will also have sc2 divisions.
They fail to realize that a LoL PL would eat up a lot of TV/coverage time as well. OGN already has their own league (this has been said several times already-- not our fault if those choose not to read a few of the responses in the thread for post cred), so it does actually impact the SC2 coverage to a certain extent in Korea.
Yeah, but the OP says nothing about SC2 at all. Now we can make assumptions that it may affect SC2 in some way, but I still don't think it should be in this forum. When we have a news article that says "SC2 tv time cut in half because of LoL PL" it's place is here, but this one should be in LoL forum. Now this thread is full of LoL bashing, SC2 bashing, BW bashing etc, etc...
I think it's implied considering we already know about the OGN League/LCS. That's the pull and that's why people like Wolf would question it. The OGN schedule is already pretty tight as is. Not only that but what are the ramifications of this on the LCS and how the Koreans compete in it? This is pretty a significant deal and it could be problematic if Korea isolates their players even more. Those are the two biggest things that cross my mind: scheduling and how it effects the global playing field. I'd like to see a few Western teams like C9, Alternate, Gambit etc. compete in something like this. >_<
On July 05 2013 00:09 SidianTheBard wrote: Great news. If Dota2 wasn't supported by Valve, who everybody loves, it would already be a dead game. Glad SPL & Kespa were smart and picked up the better MOBA game. Maybe it's time for TL to actually pick up and fully support League?
if lol wasnt supported by riot, who is filthy rich, it would already be a dead game. ???
That makes no sense. Why do you think Riot is filthy rich, if not for LoL players enjoying the game enough to spend a ton of money on it?
Erm you do realize that the game flopped when it came out? If Riot wouldn't have put in a shit tone of money (there is a chinese investment firm behind riot afterall) into marketing (which does involve everything they do in esports) the game wouldn't have more players than hon nowadays. Of course creating the easiest possible game in your genre always helps nowadays (which not only lol but also cod shows), but riot basically got their game to what it is by pumping in a ton of money. And if you would just remove that money overnight the entire scene would collapse as pretty much everything is run with riot money, and thanks to lcs not including any other tournaments (they are fixing that by touring) they are so irrelevant at this point that the scene would just disappear. You need to understand that esports is just a marketing tool for riot.
Tencent bought Riot in 2011 for $400M, which was not actually that big of a shit ton, HoN was already a sinking ship by then because all the bad decision S2 made.
Riot use player's money to pump back to the game, increase the game quality, organize the tournaments, I don't see how that's bad, should them just keep all the money and only do $1M tournament a year like Valve?
ofc they should, lcs literally made any other lol tournament irrelevant, meaning that if riot pulls out (aka when they feel like investing all that cash is no longer a good thing) the entire scene collapses. Building a scene on developer money is really really dangerous, but I guess you'll see I'm right when they decide to pull out
On July 05 2013 01:19 N.geNuity wrote: its actually very easy to know how LoL got big in korea: n00bs said chaos (korean dota) was too hard and bw was too hard so they went to LoL (turn on eng subs)
More like society is leaning more towards games that are easy to get in and out of from a noncompetitive level. LoL is a very social game (both a good and bad thing -- hopefully you play with a lot of friends!). Remember when we ripped apart Blizzard when they first announced SC2. We spoke about everything from auto-mine, to MBS, etc. all that jazz. Times are always going to change and f2p/mobas have been doing pretty darn well for quite some time. It's a completely different market though and they have to worry about other things. Fortunately pirating isn't on their to-do list.
Can you explain to me exactly how a game being social can be in ANY way classed as a bad thing?
LoL is a very good game, and I am glad for the esports scene that it is growing in Korea. While SC2 could never be as popular as a game like LoL, it is SC2/Blizzard's fault that SC2 is not as popular as it could be (i.e. at least as popular as BW was/is in Korea).
On July 05 2013 01:19 N.geNuity wrote: its actually very easy to know how LoL got big in korea: n00bs said chaos (korean dota) was too hard and bw was too hard so they went to LoL (turn on eng subs)
More like society is leaning more towards games that are easy to get in and out of from a noncompetitive level. LoL is a very social game (both a good and bad thing -- hopefully you play with a lot of friends!). Remember when we ripped apart Blizzard when they first announced SC2. We spoke about everything from auto-mine, to MBS, etc. all that jazz. Times are always going to change and f2p/mobas have been doing pretty darn well for quite some time. It's a completely different market though and they have to worry about other things. Fortunately pirating isn't on their to-do list.
Can you explain to me exactly how a game being social can be in ANY way classed as a bad thing?
Reported for feeding; reported for harassement; reported for being an unskilled player; players talking as if they know their shit; people failing to communicate or show any teamwork. I think you get the idea. There's just a lot of negativity when it comes to gaming chat in general. ;/ I think you get the idea. Not all your online social interactions with people are going to be positive.
I'll give you one example from one of the last times I played. My buddy and I were trying something new and innovative bot lane in a normal game and a few guys weren't to thrilled about it. The dialogue that ensued was pretty darn entertaining hohoho. LoL can be a lot of fun when your playing with a lot friends. It's way more fun than going solo cue, but you'll always run into a few negative Nancies eventually.
I dont understand why some people don't think SC2 and LOL can co-exist. I don't see why its any different to sports irl. Football/soccer/tennis/mma/basketball all seem to do fine.
There will always be a market for SC2, since some people (like myself) just prefer one on one competition over team games.
On July 05 2013 01:19 N.geNuity wrote: its actually very easy to know how LoL got big in korea: n00bs said chaos (korean dota) was too hard and bw was too hard so they went to LoL (turn on eng subs)
More like society is leaning more towards games that are easy to get in and out of from a noncompetitive level. LoL is a very social game (both a good and bad thing -- hopefully you play with a lot of friends!). Remember when we ripped apart Blizzard when they first announced SC2. We spoke about everything from auto-mine, to MBS, etc. all that jazz. Times are always going to change and f2p/mobas have been doing pretty darn well for quite some time. It's a completely different market though and they have to worry about other things. Fortunately pirating isn't on their to-do list.
Can you explain to me exactly how a game being social can be in ANY way classed as a bad thing?
Reported for feeding; reported for harassement; reported for being an unskilled player; players talking as if they know their shit; people failing to communicate or show any teamwork. I think you get the idea. There's just a lot of negativity when it comes to gaming chat in general. ;/ I think you get the idea. Not all your online social interactions with people are going to be positive.
I'll give you one example from one of the last times I played. My buddy and I were trying something new and innovative bot lane in a normal game and a few guys weren't to thrilled about it. The dialogue that ensued was pretty darn entertaining hohoho. LoL can be a lot of fun when your playing with a lot friends. It's way more fun than going solo cue, but you'll always run into a few negative Nancies eventually.
Sorry for being anecdotal, but it is an example for StarStruck's point:
A few weeks ago, I tried out Dota to build an informed opinion about MOBAs, I played a little more than 30 games, before I uninstalled it - frustrated. Obviously I didn't play very well as I just started out and just read a few guides on how to play support (I'm pretty sure though there were also a lot of people playing a lot worse than I, but who am I to judge). I was always very open about being new, asked for advice on how to do stuff better. Needless to say, I was flamed a lot, was seemingly reported (at least I got the message that I would not receive any battle points and being in low priority queue); there were tons of people completely ignoring team mates, talking in Russian, Spanish or French - when politely asked to communicate at least rudimentarily in English, a lot of profanities were voiced.
There were of course a few exceptions to the rule, players that would help out, were nice etc, but overall I'd say my impression of the MOBA community is worse than let's say that of CoD, which says a lot. I won't touch that game until friends of mine persuade me, DOTA was far from a pleasant experience for me. I enjoyed the actual gameplay somewhat, but far less than real RTS and not enough to put up with all that added shit. Sometimes it felt as I wasn't playing Dota but the blame game.
On July 04 2013 14:25 ssg wrote: Kespa was successful because they held a monopoly on BW talent. They are less so, but still very successful now because they have half the SC2 talent.
LOL at them for thinking they can just incorporate LoL.
Riot is keeping close, and the relation is well defined. Unlike what blizzard did, where they couldn't careless about BW eSports for the longest time, and then out of nowhere with SC2 they started care because they finally saw the marketing value in it. I don't think the monopoly of the players is a necessary thing this time around.
MonteCristo the English caster for The Champions rumored out on his twitter that OGN and Riot were in talks for Korea/OGN to hold the World playoffs/finals for 2014. Judging from OGN high production with the little money they put in (relative to the millions of dollars Riots puts in), this could be an amazing event.
On July 05 2013 01:19 N.geNuity wrote: its actually very easy to know how LoL got big in korea: n00bs said chaos (korean dota) was too hard and bw was too hard so they went to LoL (turn on eng subs)
More like society is leaning more towards games that are easy to get in and out of from a noncompetitive level. LoL is a very social game (both a good and bad thing -- hopefully you play with a lot of friends!). Remember when we ripped apart Blizzard when they first announced SC2. We spoke about everything from auto-mine, to MBS, etc. all that jazz. Times are always going to change and f2p/mobas have been doing pretty darn well for quite some time. It's a completely different market though and they have to worry about other things. Fortunately pirating isn't on their to-do list.
Can you explain to me exactly how a game being social can be in ANY way classed as a bad thing?
Reported for feeding; reported for harassement; reported for being an unskilled player; players talking as if they know their shit; people failing to communicate or show any teamwork. I think you get the idea. There's just a lot of negativity when it comes to gaming chat in general. ;/ I think you get the idea. Not all your online social interactions with people are going to be positive.
I'll give you one example from one of the last times I played. My buddy and I were trying something new and innovative bot lane in a normal game and a few guys weren't to thrilled about it. The dialogue that ensued was pretty darn entertaining hohoho. LoL can be a lot of fun when your playing with a lot friends. It's way more fun than going solo cue, but you'll always run into a few negative Nancies eventually.
Sorry for being anecdotal, but it is an example for StarStruck's point:
A few weeks ago, I tried out Dota to build an informed opinion about MOBAs, I played a little more than 30 games, before I uninstalled it - frustrated. Obviously I didn't play very well as I just started out and just read a few guides on how to play support (I'm pretty sure though there were also a lot of people playing a lot worse than I, but who am I to judge). I was always very open about being new, asked for advice on how to do stuff better. Needless to say, I was flamed a lot, was seemingly reported (at least I got the message that I would not receive any battle points and being in low priority queue); there were tons of people completely ignoring team mates, talking in Russian, Spanish or French - when politely asked to communicate at least rudimentarily in English, a lot of profanities were voiced.
There were of course a few exceptions to the rule, players that would help out, were nice etc, but overall I'd say my impression of the MOBA community is worse than let's say that of CoD, which says a lot. I won't touch that game until friends of mine persuade me, DOTA was far from a pleasant experience for me. I enjoyed the actual gameplay somewhat, but far less than real RTS and not enough to put up with all that added shit. Sometimes it felt as I wasn't playing Dota but the blame game.
Both of your stories are examples of humans being assholes when set to play/work in a team environment, and when imaginary points are up for grab, the reason why many companies screen a lot for the thing called "teamwork"...and of course the Dunning–Kruger effect in full swing.
On July 05 2013 00:09 SidianTheBard wrote: Great news. If Dota2 wasn't supported by Valve, who everybody loves, it would already be a dead game. Glad SPL & Kespa were smart and picked up the better MOBA game. Maybe it's time for TL to actually pick up and fully support League?
if lol wasnt supported by riot, who is filthy rich, it would already be a dead game. ???
Yes, the FREE to play game made Riot filthy rich. You know why? Probably because of the millions upon millions of people that support it. I'd imagine saying Dota2 supported by VALVE makes a lot of people jump on that boat because it's Valve and they've proven how amazing of a company they are.
this comment is so ignorant its not even funny. dota was huge before lol was even made, the only reason people started lol was because it had "better graphics" and was considerably easier, which attracted the nerds who didnt care about gameplay to start with, and then riot forced their way into gaming markets by splashing cash. if you honestly think lol is the reason why riot is rich then you are deluded. riot was rich to start with and thats how they attracted players for their game, by spending money. and how is lol a free to play game if you have to pretty much buy champions and runes? i dont want to turn this thread into a lol vs dota discussion so lets stop it here, however you really need to get your facts straight.
"you really need to get your facts straight", you do realize you cant buy runes with IRL cash right? also you are able to buy champions with ingame-cash, so if anything you are the delusional one here atm.
Who are you kidding ? I've played like 500 games of lol, and I don't even have 1/3 of the total pool. You can't have access to the full game without going by the cashshop.
On July 05 2013 00:09 SidianTheBard wrote: Great news. If Dota2 wasn't supported by Valve, who everybody loves, it would already be a dead game. Glad SPL & Kespa were smart and picked up the better MOBA game. Maybe it's time for TL to actually pick up and fully support League?
if lol wasnt supported by riot, who is filthy rich, it would already be a dead game. ???
That makes no sense. Why do you think Riot is filthy rich, if not for LoL players enjoying the game enough to spend a ton of money on it?
Tencent ? Lobbying like mad ?
Well modern e-sports doesn't look like the e-sports I imagined when I was young. From bw, w3, quake to LoL and WoT what a regression.
Yeah, Tencent bought a stake in Riot for a several hundred million dollars in 2011. How exactly does that translate to LoL being a dead game without Riot's support?
Looks more like Tencent wanted in on Riot's cashflow to me.
On July 05 2013 00:09 SidianTheBard wrote: Great news. If Dota2 wasn't supported by Valve, who everybody loves, it would already be a dead game. Glad SPL & Kespa were smart and picked up the better MOBA game. Maybe it's time for TL to actually pick up and fully support League?
if lol wasnt supported by riot, who is filthy rich, it would already be a dead game. ???
Yes, the FREE to play game made Riot filthy rich. You know why? Probably because of the millions upon millions of people that support it. I'd imagine saying Dota2 supported by VALVE makes a lot of people jump on that boat because it's Valve and they've proven how amazing of a company they are.
this comment is so ignorant its not even funny. dota was huge before lol was even made, the only reason people started lol was because it had "better graphics" and was considerably easier, which attracted the nerds who didnt care about gameplay to start with, and then riot forced their way into gaming markets by splashing cash. if you honestly think lol is the reason why riot is rich then you are deluded. riot was rich to start with and thats how they attracted players for their game, by spending money. and how is lol a free to play game if you have to pretty much buy champions and runes? i dont want to turn this thread into a lol vs dota discussion so lets stop it here, however you really need to get your facts straight.
"you really need to get your facts straight", you do realize you cant buy runes with IRL cash right? also you are able to buy champions with ingame-cash, so if anything you are the delusional one here atm.
yeah if you want to play like 2000 games? huge investment JUST so you can have access to the entire champion pool. i have multiple friends in korea who claim to have spent over $100 just so they can access all the heroes.
Someone paid $100 into a game, OMG it is the end of the world...I mean come on, if you are gonna play a game for years that amount of money is nothing.
Just a heads up by the way in Korea they have all the champions unlocked if they are playing in a Internet Cafe, so your point of unlocking champion pool is Kinda silly. Also I have been playing on and off since beta, and I have like ~90 champs, I barely ever play most of them, I usually go through moods of playing a couple of different champions (like a max of 5), and sometimes being a sheep and playing flavors of the month characters. When I play actively, I can unlock a champion every 4/5 days.
On July 05 2013 00:09 SidianTheBard wrote: Great news. If Dota2 wasn't supported by Valve, who everybody loves, it would already be a dead game. Glad SPL & Kespa were smart and picked up the better MOBA game. Maybe it's time for TL to actually pick up and fully support League?
if lol wasnt supported by riot, who is filthy rich, it would already be a dead game. ???
LoL was Riot's first game, LoL made Riot rich, if it wasn't for LoL Riot wouldn't have millions to throw. Now compare that to how many games has Valve made before DotA2, also don't forget the million dollar tournaments were initiated by Valve, Riot only gave out $100k in S1.
On July 05 2013 00:09 SidianTheBard wrote: Great news. If Dota2 wasn't supported by Valve, who everybody loves, it would already be a dead game. Glad SPL & Kespa were smart and picked up the better MOBA game. Maybe it's time for TL to actually pick up and fully support League?
if lol wasnt supported by riot, who is filthy rich, it would already be a dead game. ???
LoL was Riot's first game, LoL made Riot rich, if it wasn't for LoL Riot wouldn't have millions to throw. Now compare that to how many games has Valve made before DotA2, also don't forget the million dollar tournaments were initiated by Valve, Riot only gave out $100k in S1.
Also, if you're a Starcraft fan and are salty that when Riot financially supports a tournament, they don't allow competitor ARTS at that event? I'm pretty sure Blizzard's history with Broodwar when SC2 came out doesn't exactly allow Blizzard the high ground there. Valve? Yeah maybe, although Valve started pushing Dota2 as an esport before they saw any money from that game as well.
On July 05 2013 00:09 SidianTheBard wrote: Great news. If Dota2 wasn't supported by Valve, who everybody loves, it would already be a dead game. Glad SPL & Kespa were smart and picked up the better MOBA game. Maybe it's time for TL to actually pick up and fully support League?
if lol wasnt supported by riot, who is filthy rich, it would already be a dead game. ???
Yes, the FREE to play game made Riot filthy rich. You know why? Probably because of the millions upon millions of people that support it. I'd imagine saying Dota2 supported by VALVE makes a lot of people jump on that boat because it's Valve and they've proven how amazing of a company they are.
this comment is so ignorant its not even funny. dota was huge before lol was even made, the only reason people started lol was because it had "better graphics" and was considerably easier, which attracted the nerds who didnt care about gameplay to start with, and then riot forced their way into gaming markets by splashing cash. if you honestly think lol is the reason why riot is rich then you are deluded. riot was rich to start with and thats how they attracted players for their game, by spending money. and how is lol a free to play game if you have to pretty much buy champions and runes? i dont want to turn this thread into a lol vs dota discussion so lets stop it here, however you really need to get your facts straight.
"you really need to get your facts straight", you do realize you cant buy runes with IRL cash right? also you are able to buy champions with ingame-cash, so if anything you are the delusional one here atm.
Who are you kidding ? I've played like 500 games of lol, and I don't even have 1/3 of the total pool. You can't have access to the full game without going by the cashshop.
Then learn to win games.
don't be dumb, ive played around 500games with roughly 55%wr and im not even close to 1/3 of the pool. And i have 4runes, not 4runepage mind you.
I don't see this as that big a deal for sc2. iirc, the Proleague brand name was also applied to this one other Counter-Strike clone as well. Maybe the schedules might conflict a bit and some of KeSPA's manpower will go towards the LoL side of things, but otherwise I don't see this as the beginning of the end for sc2 or anything.
On July 05 2013 00:09 SidianTheBard wrote: Great news. If Dota2 wasn't supported by Valve, who everybody loves, it would already be a dead game. Glad SPL & Kespa were smart and picked up the better MOBA game. Maybe it's time for TL to actually pick up and fully support League?
if lol wasnt supported by riot, who is filthy rich, it would already be a dead game. ???
Yes, the FREE to play game made Riot filthy rich. You know why? Probably because of the millions upon millions of people that support it. I'd imagine saying Dota2 supported by VALVE makes a lot of people jump on that boat because it's Valve and they've proven how amazing of a company they are.
this comment is so ignorant its not even funny. dota was huge before lol was even made, the only reason people started lol was because it had "better graphics" and was considerably easier, which attracted the nerds who didnt care about gameplay to start with, and then riot forced their way into gaming markets by splashing cash. if you honestly think lol is the reason why riot is rich then you are deluded. riot was rich to start with and thats how they attracted players for their game, by spending money. and how is lol a free to play game if you have to pretty much buy champions and runes? i dont want to turn this thread into a lol vs dota discussion so lets stop it here, however you really need to get your facts straight.
"you really need to get your facts straight", you do realize you cant buy runes with IRL cash right? also you are able to buy champions with ingame-cash, so if anything you are the delusional one here atm.
Who are you kidding ? I've played like 500 games of lol, and I don't even have 1/3 of the total pool. You can't have access to the full game without going by the cashshop.
You don't need access to the entire champion roster in LoL though, not even for ranked. Whether you own Heimerdinger or not is not a gamebreaker, using Ashe instead of Varus isn't a massive deal. Because LoL has more coherent champion design than other MOBAs, champions are very interchangable. Team compositions are mostly broad strokes, with a lot of champions that can fill various purposes unlike DotA where having access to a particular hero can change your team strategy massively because every DotA hero is entirely unique.
On July 04 2013 19:25 theking1 wrote: @spikestarcraft
so the fact that a moba resigns a contract with a company they already had a good contract with in the first placemakes you hate sc2 .Why can not you like sc2 for what it is .
@Alexj
Enlighten me a little bit.what is the difference between proleague and olympus champions beside different format?What will it bring to lol and how will it negatively impact sc2?
@evilfatsh
not you dota2 fans too.............why?what does this have to do with dota 2?You guys already have the 2 million dollar nexon thingy.How does negatively impact you...come on guys
how doesnt it? we all know kespa is what makes koreans pro scenes so god damn pro. so what if we have a big tournament sponsored by nexon? whos gonna win it? "pro" korean teams that would get owned by any pro b team from china/eu? kespa was the best bet for all aspiring dota 2 progamers, and now that it has been ruled out dota players have no alternative but to play in teams that probably dont have the knowledge nor the experience required to become top level. considering the fact that china and eu started playing the game YEARS before koreans did, it just got infinitely harder for koreans to rival the chinese and the western community.
dota 2 has a contract with gomtv which gave sc2 its greatest champions such as mvp,nestea,mma,drg,polt etc.only recently kespa went in the sc2 scene.gomtv champions are more than enough tackle any team in most esports.I would not be surprised if in 1 year kr teams start winning everything.And as for that matter the koreans did not even have a lol server and now they are dominating eu and na.Kespa is good but its not all that good.And many good lol teams such as mvp ozone although playing on ogn arent kespa affiliated.
On July 05 2013 00:09 SidianTheBard wrote: Great news. If Dota2 wasn't supported by Valve, who everybody loves, it would already be a dead game. Glad SPL & Kespa were smart and picked up the better MOBA game. Maybe it's time for TL to actually pick up and fully support League?
if lol wasnt supported by riot, who is filthy rich, it would already be a dead game. ???
That makes no sense. Why do you think Riot is filthy rich, if not for LoL players enjoying the game enough to spend a ton of money on it?
Erm you do realize that the game flopped when it came out? If Riot wouldn't have put in a shit tone of money (there is a chinese investment firm behind riot afterall) into marketing (which does involve everything they do in esports) the game wouldn't have more players than hon nowadays. Of course creating the easiest possible game in your genre always helps nowadays (which not only lol but also cod shows), but riot basically got their game to what it is by pumping in a ton of money. And if you would just remove that money overnight the entire scene would collapse as pretty much everything is run with riot money, and thanks to lcs not including any other tournaments (they are fixing that by touring) they are so irrelevant at this point that the scene would just disappear. You need to understand that esports is just a marketing tool for riot.
Tencent bought Riot in 2011 for $400M, which was not actually that big of a shit ton, HoN was already a sinking ship by then because all the bad decision S2 made.
Riot use player's money to pump back to the game, increase the game quality, organize the tournaments, I don't see how that's bad, should them just keep all the money and only do $1M tournament a year like Valve?
ofc they should, lcs literally made any other lol tournament irrelevant, meaning that if riot pulls out (aka when they feel like investing all that cash is no longer a good thing) the entire scene collapses. Building a scene on developer money is really really dangerous, but I guess you'll see I'm right when they decide to pull out
You must have vast experience in business or something. Your "if" is a big "if". Take HoN for example, now it only has around 50k player base, and yet the game is still there, there're still tournaments funded by organization and company S2, teams like Complexity making more money from HoN than in Dota2 and maybe SC2. I personally don't think LoL will ever reach HoN's level of decline, but even so, as unbelievable as it is, company funded tournaments can sustain. If LoL is declined, I can see the prize and range of developer funded tournaments got scaled back, but it's gonna be a long time for the tournaments to be completely shut off.
Riot is run on player's money through micro transaction. Those money will come steady and potentially a lot. Now compared to SC2 for example, you only need to pay one time $40 for HotS. Do you think how Blizzard will pay the WCS, which is developer funded tournament? $1.6M is 40k copies of SC2 at $40 each, and those money is one time payment. How long do you think Blizzard can keep up with this WCS until they have to use WoW or D3 to fund SC2? If Blizzard takes 4 years to burn out, Riot will take 6 years; if Blizzard takes 10 years to burn out, Riot will take 12 years. It's really hard for Blizzard to catch up with Riot with the way 2 companies are running right now.
And Riot isn't the only one that put money in LoL. There're other tournaments besides LCS, such as OGN, G1, Dreamhack (they refused to use Riot money but still run LoL), .v..v.. Some small tournaments like CyberGamer, which 1st place only 1000EUR, and yet there're 100+ teams participated. What Riot does with LCS is to create a stable environments for top tier where you get paid stable salaries so that top tier teams don't have to participate in small tournaments like this, therefore amateur scene can be grown.
On July 04 2013 19:25 theking1 wrote: @spikestarcraft
so the fact that a moba resigns a contract with a company they already had a good contract with in the first placemakes you hate sc2 .Why can not you like sc2 for what it is .
@Alexj
Enlighten me a little bit.what is the difference between proleague and olympus champions beside different format?What will it bring to lol and how will it negatively impact sc2?
@evilfatsh
not you dota2 fans too.............why?what does this have to do with dota 2?You guys already have the 2 million dollar nexon thingy.How does negatively impact you...come on guys
how doesnt it? we all know kespa is what makes koreans pro scenes so god damn pro. so what if we have a big tournament sponsored by nexon? whos gonna win it? "pro" korean teams that would get owned by any pro b team from china/eu? kespa was the best bet for all aspiring dota 2 progamers, and now that it has been ruled out dota players have no alternative but to play in teams that probably dont have the knowledge nor the experience required to become top level. considering the fact that china and eu started playing the game YEARS before koreans did, it just got infinitely harder for koreans to rival the chinese and the western community.
dota 2 has a contract with gomtv which gave sc2 its greatest champions such as mvp,nestea,mma,drg,polt etc.only recently kespa went in the sc2 scene.gomtv champions are more than enough tackle any team in most esports.I would not be surprised if in 1 year kr teams start winning everything.And as for that matter the koreans did not even have a lol server and now they are dominating eu and na.Kespa is good but its not all that good.And many good lol teams such as mvp ozone although playing on ogn arent kespa affiliated.
top korean dota teams are behind some eu/na pubstack. they wont do anything in a year
Nice, I enjoy watching LoL and having LoL and SC2 at the same match will help SC2 get more exposure since people will come for LoL and get to watch both games.
Of course, I'm assuming PL will be combination of LoL and SC2 and not two separate PL.
On July 04 2013 19:25 theking1 wrote: @spikestarcraft
so the fact that a moba resigns a contract with a company they already had a good contract with in the first placemakes you hate sc2 .Why can not you like sc2 for what it is .
@Alexj
Enlighten me a little bit.what is the difference between proleague and olympus champions beside different format?What will it bring to lol and how will it negatively impact sc2?
@evilfatsh
not you dota2 fans too.............why?what does this have to do with dota 2?You guys already have the 2 million dollar nexon thingy.How does negatively impact you...come on guys
how doesnt it? we all know kespa is what makes koreans pro scenes so god damn pro. so what if we have a big tournament sponsored by nexon? whos gonna win it? "pro" korean teams that would get owned by any pro b team from china/eu? kespa was the best bet for all aspiring dota 2 progamers, and now that it has been ruled out dota players have no alternative but to play in teams that probably dont have the knowledge nor the experience required to become top level. considering the fact that china and eu started playing the game YEARS before koreans did, it just got infinitely harder for koreans to rival the chinese and the western community.
dota 2 has a contract with gomtv which gave sc2 its greatest champions such as mvp,nestea,mma,drg,polt etc.only recently kespa went in the sc2 scene.gomtv champions are more than enough tackle any team in most esports.I would not be surprised if in 1 year kr teams start winning everything.And as for that matter the koreans did not even have a lol server and now they are dominating eu and na.Kespa is good but its not all that good.And many good lol teams such as mvp ozone although playing on ogn arent kespa affiliated.
top korean dota teams are behind some eu/na pubstack. they wont do anything in a year
People thought that about LoL too when season 1/WCG was still out and NA was dominating everything. One year to season 2, and top NA rarely took games, let alone series off top korean teams.
Don't be surprised if in a year the Koreans are up there with the Chinese.
Korea slowly but surely becomes less and less respectable in my mind, with their LoL obsession. Anyhow, good luck with the new venture, Kespa, and hopefully some "dirty LoL money" will be brought into StarCraft as well, as Kespa works with both.
On July 04 2013 19:25 theking1 wrote: @spikestarcraft
so the fact that a moba resigns a contract with a company they already had a good contract with in the first placemakes you hate sc2 .Why can not you like sc2 for what it is .
@Alexj
Enlighten me a little bit.what is the difference between proleague and olympus champions beside different format?What will it bring to lol and how will it negatively impact sc2?
@evilfatsh
not you dota2 fans too.............why?what does this have to do with dota 2?You guys already have the 2 million dollar nexon thingy.How does negatively impact you...come on guys
how doesnt it? we all know kespa is what makes koreans pro scenes so god damn pro. so what if we have a big tournament sponsored by nexon? whos gonna win it? "pro" korean teams that would get owned by any pro b team from china/eu? kespa was the best bet for all aspiring dota 2 progamers, and now that it has been ruled out dota players have no alternative but to play in teams that probably dont have the knowledge nor the experience required to become top level. considering the fact that china and eu started playing the game YEARS before koreans did, it just got infinitely harder for koreans to rival the chinese and the western community.
dota 2 has a contract with gomtv which gave sc2 its greatest champions such as mvp,nestea,mma,drg,polt etc.only recently kespa went in the sc2 scene.gomtv champions are more than enough tackle any team in most esports.I would not be surprised if in 1 year kr teams start winning everything.And as for that matter the koreans did not even have a lol server and now they are dominating eu and na.Kespa is good but its not all that good.And many good lol teams such as mvp ozone although playing on ogn arent kespa affiliated.
top korean dota teams are behind some eu/na pubstack. they wont do anything in a year
People thought that about LoL too when season 1/WCG was still out and NA was dominating everything. One year to season 2, and top NA rarely took games, let alone series off top korean teams.
Don't be surprised if in a year the Koreans are up there with the Chinese.
Yeah, LoL NA pros thought they had a big lead, and to this day, the (arguably) top NA team TSM is 0-13 vs Korean teams.
On July 04 2013 19:25 theking1 wrote: @spikestarcraft
so the fact that a moba resigns a contract with a company they already had a good contract with in the first placemakes you hate sc2 .Why can not you like sc2 for what it is .
@Alexj
Enlighten me a little bit.what is the difference between proleague and olympus champions beside different format?What will it bring to lol and how will it negatively impact sc2?
@evilfatsh
not you dota2 fans too.............why?what does this have to do with dota 2?You guys already have the 2 million dollar nexon thingy.How does negatively impact you...come on guys
how doesnt it? we all know kespa is what makes koreans pro scenes so god damn pro. so what if we have a big tournament sponsored by nexon? whos gonna win it? "pro" korean teams that would get owned by any pro b team from china/eu? kespa was the best bet for all aspiring dota 2 progamers, and now that it has been ruled out dota players have no alternative but to play in teams that probably dont have the knowledge nor the experience required to become top level. considering the fact that china and eu started playing the game YEARS before koreans did, it just got infinitely harder for koreans to rival the chinese and the western community.
dota 2 has a contract with gomtv which gave sc2 its greatest champions such as mvp,nestea,mma,drg,polt etc.only recently kespa went in the sc2 scene.gomtv champions are more than enough tackle any team in most esports.I would not be surprised if in 1 year kr teams start winning everything.And as for that matter the koreans did not even have a lol server and now they are dominating eu and na.Kespa is good but its not all that good.And many good lol teams such as mvp ozone although playing on ogn arent kespa affiliated.
top korean dota teams are behind some eu/na pubstack. they wont do anything in a year
People thought that about LoL too when season 1/WCG was still out and NA was dominating everything. One year to season 2, and top NA rarely took games, let alone series off top korean teams.
Don't be surprised if in a year the Koreans are up there with the Chinese.
On July 04 2013 19:25 theking1 wrote: @spikestarcraft
so the fact that a moba resigns a contract with a company they already had a good contract with in the first placemakes you hate sc2 .Why can not you like sc2 for what it is .
@Alexj
Enlighten me a little bit.what is the difference between proleague and olympus champions beside different format?What will it bring to lol and how will it negatively impact sc2?
@evilfatsh
not you dota2 fans too.............why?what does this have to do with dota 2?You guys already have the 2 million dollar nexon thingy.How does negatively impact you...come on guys
how doesnt it? we all know kespa is what makes koreans pro scenes so god damn pro. so what if we have a big tournament sponsored by nexon? whos gonna win it? "pro" korean teams that would get owned by any pro b team from china/eu? kespa was the best bet for all aspiring dota 2 progamers, and now that it has been ruled out dota players have no alternative but to play in teams that probably dont have the knowledge nor the experience required to become top level. considering the fact that china and eu started playing the game YEARS before koreans did, it just got infinitely harder for koreans to rival the chinese and the western community.
dota 2 has a contract with gomtv which gave sc2 its greatest champions such as mvp,nestea,mma,drg,polt etc.only recently kespa went in the sc2 scene.gomtv champions are more than enough tackle any team in most esports.I would not be surprised if in 1 year kr teams start winning everything.And as for that matter the koreans did not even have a lol server and now they are dominating eu and na.Kespa is good but its not all that good.And many good lol teams such as mvp ozone although playing on ogn arent kespa affiliated.
top korean dota teams are behind some eu/na pubstack. they wont do anything in a year
People thought that about LoL too when season 1/WCG was still out and NA was dominating everything. One year to season 2, and top NA rarely took games, let alone series off top korean teams.
Don't be surprised if in a year the Koreans are up there with the Chinese.
Yeah, LoL NA pros thought they had a big lead, and to this day, the (arguably) top NA team TSM is 0-13 vs Korean teams.
isnt c9 the top na team right now?i also think clg had higher s1 placement than tsm.tsm seem a bit overrated to me.
@archoonoid.
it is.i have been yelling this stuff on the forums for weeks and no one pays attention.lol is capped between 100k and 150k rarely do they reach 200k and that only in cases like between 2 fan favourites like fnatic vs gambit or tsm vs clg.I would really wanna see their numbers if they had as many asians playing in na and eu like sc2 has.
On July 04 2013 19:25 theking1 wrote: @spikestarcraft
so the fact that a moba resigns a contract with a company they already had a good contract with in the first placemakes you hate sc2 .Why can not you like sc2 for what it is .
@Alexj
Enlighten me a little bit.what is the difference between proleague and olympus champions beside different format?What will it bring to lol and how will it negatively impact sc2?
@evilfatsh
not you dota2 fans too.............why?what does this have to do with dota 2?You guys already have the 2 million dollar nexon thingy.How does negatively impact you...come on guys
how doesnt it? we all know kespa is what makes koreans pro scenes so god damn pro. so what if we have a big tournament sponsored by nexon? whos gonna win it? "pro" korean teams that would get owned by any pro b team from china/eu? kespa was the best bet for all aspiring dota 2 progamers, and now that it has been ruled out dota players have no alternative but to play in teams that probably dont have the knowledge nor the experience required to become top level. considering the fact that china and eu started playing the game YEARS before koreans did, it just got infinitely harder for koreans to rival the chinese and the western community.
dota 2 has a contract with gomtv which gave sc2 its greatest champions such as mvp,nestea,mma,drg,polt etc.only recently kespa went in the sc2 scene.gomtv champions are more than enough tackle any team in most esports.I would not be surprised if in 1 year kr teams start winning everything.And as for that matter the koreans did not even have a lol server and now they are dominating eu and na.Kespa is good but its not all that good.And many good lol teams such as mvp ozone although playing on ogn arent kespa affiliated.
top korean dota teams are behind some eu/na pubstack. they wont do anything in a year
People thought that about LoL too when season 1/WCG was still out and NA was dominating everything. One year to season 2, and top NA rarely took games, let alone series off top korean teams.
Don't be surprised if in a year the Koreans are up there with the Chinese.
Yeah, LoL NA pros thought they had a big lead, and to this day, the (arguably) top NA team TSM is 0-13 vs Korean teams.
isnt c9 the top na team right now?i also think clg had higher s1 placement than tsm.tsm seem a bit overrated to me.
@archoonoid.
it is.i have been yelling this stuff on the forums for weeks and no one pays attention.lol is capped between 100k and 150k rarely do they reach 200k and that only in cases like between 2 fan favourites like fnatic vs gambit or tsm vs clg.I would really wanna see their numbers if they had as many asians playing in na and eu like sc2 has.
Its a weekly event in regular cases more than one day. Events like Allstars or Worldfinals can get a way higher number
They should pick up DOTA and WoT too. Now instead of one game, matches are one set in each game, and the same people have to play all the games. It'd be like a e-sports triathalon (quadathalon?)
On July 04 2013 19:25 theking1 wrote: @spikestarcraft
so the fact that a moba resigns a contract with a company they already had a good contract with in the first placemakes you hate sc2 .Why can not you like sc2 for what it is .
@Alexj
Enlighten me a little bit.what is the difference between proleague and olympus champions beside different format?What will it bring to lol and how will it negatively impact sc2?
@evilfatsh
not you dota2 fans too.............why?what does this have to do with dota 2?You guys already have the 2 million dollar nexon thingy.How does negatively impact you...come on guys
how doesnt it? we all know kespa is what makes koreans pro scenes so god damn pro. so what if we have a big tournament sponsored by nexon? whos gonna win it? "pro" korean teams that would get owned by any pro b team from china/eu? kespa was the best bet for all aspiring dota 2 progamers, and now that it has been ruled out dota players have no alternative but to play in teams that probably dont have the knowledge nor the experience required to become top level. considering the fact that china and eu started playing the game YEARS before koreans did, it just got infinitely harder for koreans to rival the chinese and the western community.
dota 2 has a contract with gomtv which gave sc2 its greatest champions such as mvp,nestea,mma,drg,polt etc.only recently kespa went in the sc2 scene.gomtv champions are more than enough tackle any team in most esports.I would not be surprised if in 1 year kr teams start winning everything.And as for that matter the koreans did not even have a lol server and now they are dominating eu and na.Kespa is good but its not all that good.And many good lol teams such as mvp ozone although playing on ogn arent kespa affiliated.
top korean dota teams are behind some eu/na pubstack. they wont do anything in a year
People thought that about LoL too when season 1/WCG was still out and NA was dominating everything. One year to season 2, and top NA rarely took games, let alone series off top korean teams.
Don't be surprised if in a year the Koreans are up there with the Chinese.
Yeah, LoL NA pros thought they had a big lead, and to this day, the (arguably) top NA team TSM is 0-13 vs Korean teams.
isnt c9 the top na team right now?i also think clg had higher s1 placement than tsm.tsm seem a bit overrated to me.
@archoonoid.
it is.i have been yelling this stuff on the forums for weeks and no one pays attention.lol is capped between 100k and 150k rarely do they reach 200k and that only in cases like between 2 fan favourites like fnatic vs gambit or tsm vs clg.I would really wanna see their numbers if they had as many asians playing in na and eu like sc2 has.
Its a weekly event in regular cases more than one day. Events like Allstars or Worldfinals can get a way higher number
still considering their proclaimed 70million players(cough accounts) and 5 mil daily players they should have a bit higher numbers.
On July 04 2013 19:25 theking1 wrote: @spikestarcraft
so the fact that a moba resigns a contract with a company they already had a good contract with in the first placemakes you hate sc2 .Why can not you like sc2 for what it is .
@Alexj
Enlighten me a little bit.what is the difference between proleague and olympus champions beside different format?What will it bring to lol and how will it negatively impact sc2?
@evilfatsh
not you dota2 fans too.............why?what does this have to do with dota 2?You guys already have the 2 million dollar nexon thingy.How does negatively impact you...come on guys
how doesnt it? we all know kespa is what makes koreans pro scenes so god damn pro. so what if we have a big tournament sponsored by nexon? whos gonna win it? "pro" korean teams that would get owned by any pro b team from china/eu? kespa was the best bet for all aspiring dota 2 progamers, and now that it has been ruled out dota players have no alternative but to play in teams that probably dont have the knowledge nor the experience required to become top level. considering the fact that china and eu started playing the game YEARS before koreans did, it just got infinitely harder for koreans to rival the chinese and the western community.
dota 2 has a contract with gomtv which gave sc2 its greatest champions such as mvp,nestea,mma,drg,polt etc.only recently kespa went in the sc2 scene.gomtv champions are more than enough tackle any team in most esports.I would not be surprised if in 1 year kr teams start winning everything.And as for that matter the koreans did not even have a lol server and now they are dominating eu and na.Kespa is good but its not all that good.And many good lol teams such as mvp ozone although playing on ogn arent kespa affiliated.
top korean dota teams are behind some eu/na pubstack. they wont do anything in a year
People thought that about LoL too when season 1/WCG was still out and NA was dominating everything. One year to season 2, and top NA rarely took games, let alone series off top korean teams.
Don't be surprised if in a year the Koreans are up there with the Chinese.
Yeah, LoL NA pros thought they had a big lead, and to this day, the (arguably) top NA team TSM is 0-13 vs Korean teams.
isnt c9 the top na team right now?i also think clg had higher s1 placement than tsm.tsm seem a bit overrated to me.
@archoonoid.
it is.i have been yelling this stuff on the forums for weeks and no one pays attention.lol is capped between 100k and 150k rarely do they reach 200k and that only in cases like between 2 fan favourites like fnatic vs gambit or tsm vs clg.I would really wanna see their numbers if they had as many asians playing in na and eu like sc2 has.
Its a weekly event in regular cases more than one day. Events like Allstars or Worldfinals can get a way higher number
still considering their proclaimed 70million players(cough accounts) and 5 mil daily players they should have a bit higher numbers.
It is 30 million players I thought? Probably the amount of casual players is higher and thats why.
future esport belongs to the casuals. Something people can just pick up, smash buttons 1-4 and still get decent results. And from the huge pools of casuals, a few will go hardcore/pro.
Look at diablo, a massive failure of a game. Despite that it still have millions more active players than sc2. Why? people can smash button 1-6 and kill shit. You mix a casual game that is built with esport in mind (fairness, good skill ceiling, low skill require entry, f2p) then you get something successful like LoL
In future I see some form of casual-ized rpg/mmo turn into the esport spot light. I can't imagine what such RPG would look like, but those who do and can implement it correctly will be massively successful.
On July 04 2013 14:25 RiceAgainst wrote: Mostly LoL but some points of discussion in relation to SC2:
-If teams like Najin/MVP (non-KeSPA teams) are allowed into KeSPA's LoL PL, then there's a chance ESF SC2 teams might also be allowed into PL -(previously mentioned) 2 new KeSPA teams possibly extending over to SC2 also -One of the new teams might be STX's team take over? We dunno if the two "new" teams are gonna replace, actually be new, or even be part of SC2 also though.
Nah this is impossible. If MVP and/or IM were to join KeSPA, then they wouldn't be able to play in GSTL anymore, and they wouldn't be eSF anymore. Other eSF teams wouldn't be allowed to play in SPL. I'm guessing that KeSPA teams are going to get LoL teams, and LoL teams are going to get SC2 teams? But not positive about that.
On July 04 2013 19:25 theking1 wrote: @spikestarcraft
so the fact that a moba resigns a contract with a company they already had a good contract with in the first placemakes you hate sc2 .Why can not you like sc2 for what it is .
@Alexj
Enlighten me a little bit.what is the difference between proleague and olympus champions beside different format?What will it bring to lol and how will it negatively impact sc2?
@evilfatsh
not you dota2 fans too.............why?what does this have to do with dota 2?You guys already have the 2 million dollar nexon thingy.How does negatively impact you...come on guys
how doesnt it? we all know kespa is what makes koreans pro scenes so god damn pro. so what if we have a big tournament sponsored by nexon? whos gonna win it? "pro" korean teams that would get owned by any pro b team from china/eu? kespa was the best bet for all aspiring dota 2 progamers, and now that it has been ruled out dota players have no alternative but to play in teams that probably dont have the knowledge nor the experience required to become top level. considering the fact that china and eu started playing the game YEARS before koreans did, it just got infinitely harder for koreans to rival the chinese and the western community.
dota 2 has a contract with gomtv which gave sc2 its greatest champions such as mvp,nestea,mma,drg,polt etc.only recently kespa went in the sc2 scene.gomtv champions are more than enough tackle any team in most esports.I would not be surprised if in 1 year kr teams start winning everything.And as for that matter the koreans did not even have a lol server and now they are dominating eu and na.Kespa is good but its not all that good.And many good lol teams such as mvp ozone although playing on ogn arent kespa affiliated.
top korean dota teams are behind some eu/na pubstack. they wont do anything in a year
People thought that about LoL too when season 1/WCG was still out and NA was dominating everything. One year to season 2, and top NA rarely took games, let alone series off top korean teams.
Don't be surprised if in a year the Koreans are up there with the Chinese.
LoL is probably so established in Korea that when DotA 2 is officially released to the public that Korean DotA 2 teams won't receive the funding & infrastructure that accelerated Korean play skill in LoL so quickly
I strongly believe that DotA 2 will not reach the same popularity of LoL anywhere in the world outside of China because Valve has been so slow in developing DotA 2 while Riot / LoL has been continually building a foothold in the MOBA space
On July 04 2013 14:25 RiceAgainst wrote: Mostly LoL but some points of discussion in relation to SC2:
-If teams like Najin/MVP (non-KeSPA teams) are allowed into KeSPA's LoL PL, then there's a chance ESF SC2 teams might also be allowed into PL -(previously mentioned) 2 new KeSPA teams possibly extending over to SC2 also -One of the new teams might be STX's team take over? We dunno if the two "new" teams are gonna replace, actually be new, or even be part of SC2 also though.
Nah this is impossible. If MVP and/or IM were to join KeSPA, then they wouldn't be able to play in GSTL anymore, and they wouldn't be eSF anymore. Other eSF teams wouldn't be allowed to play in SPL. I'm guessing that KeSPA teams are going to get LoL teams, and LoL teams are going to get SC2 teams? But not positive about that.
On July 04 2013 14:25 RiceAgainst wrote: Mostly LoL but some points of discussion in relation to SC2:
-If teams like Najin/MVP (non-KeSPA teams) are allowed into KeSPA's LoL PL, then there's a chance ESF SC2 teams might also be allowed into PL -(previously mentioned) 2 new KeSPA teams possibly extending over to SC2 also -One of the new teams might be STX's team take over? We dunno if the two "new" teams are gonna replace, actually be new, or even be part of SC2 also though.
Nah this is impossible. If MVP and/or IM were to join KeSPA, then they wouldn't be able to play in GSTL anymore, and they wouldn't be eSF anymore. Other eSF teams wouldn't be allowed to play in SPL. I'm guessing that KeSPA teams are going to get LoL teams, and LoL teams are going to get SC2 teams? But not positive about that.
Either MVP and IM will leave eSF and GSTL, or their LoL team will leave the current MVP and IM to become whole new teams to join Kespa I think.
On July 04 2013 19:25 theking1 wrote: @spikestarcraft
so the fact that a moba resigns a contract with a company they already had a good contract with in the first placemakes you hate sc2 .Why can not you like sc2 for what it is .
@Alexj
Enlighten me a little bit.what is the difference between proleague and olympus champions beside different format?What will it bring to lol and how will it negatively impact sc2?
@evilfatsh
not you dota2 fans too.............why?what does this have to do with dota 2?You guys already have the 2 million dollar nexon thingy.How does negatively impact you...come on guys
how doesnt it? we all know kespa is what makes koreans pro scenes so god damn pro. so what if we have a big tournament sponsored by nexon? whos gonna win it? "pro" korean teams that would get owned by any pro b team from china/eu? kespa was the best bet for all aspiring dota 2 progamers, and now that it has been ruled out dota players have no alternative but to play in teams that probably dont have the knowledge nor the experience required to become top level. considering the fact that china and eu started playing the game YEARS before koreans did, it just got infinitely harder for koreans to rival the chinese and the western community.
dota 2 has a contract with gomtv which gave sc2 its greatest champions such as mvp,nestea,mma,drg,polt etc.only recently kespa went in the sc2 scene.gomtv champions are more than enough tackle any team in most esports.I would not be surprised if in 1 year kr teams start winning everything.And as for that matter the koreans did not even have a lol server and now they are dominating eu and na.Kespa is good but its not all that good.And many good lol teams such as mvp ozone although playing on ogn arent kespa affiliated.
top korean dota teams are behind some eu/na pubstack. they wont do anything in a year
People thought that about LoL too when season 1/WCG was still out and NA was dominating everything. One year to season 2, and top NA rarely took games, let alone series off top korean teams.
Don't be surprised if in a year the Koreans are up there with the Chinese.
Yeah, LoL NA pros thought they had a big lead, and to this day, the (arguably) top NA team TSM is 0-13 vs Korean teams.
isnt c9 the top na team right now?i also think clg had higher s1 placement than tsm.tsm seem a bit overrated to me.
Right now C9 is doing better, sure. But C9 has never played vs Koreans and TSM won the spring split of S3 of NA LCS, C9 wasn't in it.
My point was more that during a time when TSM dominated NA (most of 2012), they got crushed by Korean teams.
On July 04 2013 19:25 theking1 wrote: @spikestarcraft
so the fact that a moba resigns a contract with a company they already had a good contract with in the first placemakes you hate sc2 .Why can not you like sc2 for what it is .
@Alexj
Enlighten me a little bit.what is the difference between proleague and olympus champions beside different format?What will it bring to lol and how will it negatively impact sc2?
@evilfatsh
not you dota2 fans too.............why?what does this have to do with dota 2?You guys already have the 2 million dollar nexon thingy.How does negatively impact you...come on guys
how doesnt it? we all know kespa is what makes koreans pro scenes so god damn pro. so what if we have a big tournament sponsored by nexon? whos gonna win it? "pro" korean teams that would get owned by any pro b team from china/eu? kespa was the best bet for all aspiring dota 2 progamers, and now that it has been ruled out dota players have no alternative but to play in teams that probably dont have the knowledge nor the experience required to become top level. considering the fact that china and eu started playing the game YEARS before koreans did, it just got infinitely harder for koreans to rival the chinese and the western community.
dota 2 has a contract with gomtv which gave sc2 its greatest champions such as mvp,nestea,mma,drg,polt etc.only recently kespa went in the sc2 scene.gomtv champions are more than enough tackle any team in most esports.I would not be surprised if in 1 year kr teams start winning everything.And as for that matter the koreans did not even have a lol server and now they are dominating eu and na.Kespa is good but its not all that good.And many good lol teams such as mvp ozone although playing on ogn arent kespa affiliated.
top korean dota teams are behind some eu/na pubstack. they wont do anything in a year
People thought that about LoL too when season 1/WCG was still out and NA was dominating everything. One year to season 2, and top NA rarely took games, let alone series off top korean teams.
Don't be surprised if in a year the Koreans are up there with the Chinese.
LoL is probably so established in Korea that when DotA 2 is officially released to the public that Korean DotA 2 teams won't receive the funding & infrastructure that accelerated Korean play skill in LoL so quickly
I strongly believe that DotA 2 will not reach the same popularity of LoL anywhere in the world outside of China because Valve has been so slow in developing DotA 2 while Riot / LoL has been continually building a foothold in the MOBA space
Of course LoL is established better everywhere... It's Riots cash cow and they are reinvesting some of the revenue into popularizing the game, which apparently is a huge sum of money. Their aggressive strategy works really well, despite the fact that the game itself is falsely called free and is not the best game ever made. Valve at the same time needs 3+ years to put all the heroes in the game... Not to create them. Just to copy them into the game - they are already created. I can't see how they can win that race.
On July 04 2013 19:25 theking1 wrote: @spikestarcraft
so the fact that a moba resigns a contract with a company they already had a good contract with in the first placemakes you hate sc2 .Why can not you like sc2 for what it is .
@Alexj
Enlighten me a little bit.what is the difference between proleague and olympus champions beside different format?What will it bring to lol and how will it negatively impact sc2?
@evilfatsh
not you dota2 fans too.............why?what does this have to do with dota 2?You guys already have the 2 million dollar nexon thingy.How does negatively impact you...come on guys
how doesnt it? we all know kespa is what makes koreans pro scenes so god damn pro. so what if we have a big tournament sponsored by nexon? whos gonna win it? "pro" korean teams that would get owned by any pro b team from china/eu? kespa was the best bet for all aspiring dota 2 progamers, and now that it has been ruled out dota players have no alternative but to play in teams that probably dont have the knowledge nor the experience required to become top level. considering the fact that china and eu started playing the game YEARS before koreans did, it just got infinitely harder for koreans to rival the chinese and the western community.
dota 2 has a contract with gomtv which gave sc2 its greatest champions such as mvp,nestea,mma,drg,polt etc.only recently kespa went in the sc2 scene.gomtv champions are more than enough tackle any team in most esports.I would not be surprised if in 1 year kr teams start winning everything.And as for that matter the koreans did not even have a lol server and now they are dominating eu and na.Kespa is good but its not all that good.And many good lol teams such as mvp ozone although playing on ogn arent kespa affiliated.
top korean dota teams are behind some eu/na pubstack. they wont do anything in a year
People thought that about LoL too when season 1/WCG was still out and NA was dominating everything. One year to season 2, and top NA rarely took games, let alone series off top korean teams.
Don't be surprised if in a year the Koreans are up there with the Chinese.
On July 04 2013 14:25 RiceAgainst wrote: Mostly LoL but some points of discussion in relation to SC2:
-If teams like Najin/MVP (non-KeSPA teams) are allowed into KeSPA's LoL PL, then there's a chance ESF SC2 teams might also be allowed into PL -(previously mentioned) 2 new KeSPA teams possibly extending over to SC2 also -One of the new teams might be STX's team take over? We dunno if the two "new" teams are gonna replace, actually be new, or even be part of SC2 also though.
Nah this is impossible. If MVP and/or IM were to join KeSPA, then they wouldn't be able to play in GSTL anymore, and they wouldn't be eSF anymore. Other eSF teams wouldn't be allowed to play in SPL. I'm guessing that KeSPA teams are going to get LoL teams, and LoL teams are going to get SC2 teams? But not positive about that.
As if GSTL has any weight though.
Completely besides the point? I don't have any idea why you decided to share that opinion.
I'm somewhat surprised by the amount of people that think LoL doesn't have that many dedicated viewers. theOddOne and Voyboy consistently hit 30k+ viewers just streaming, LCS regularly breaks 150k viewers for a weekly four game show and that spikes up much higher for large tournaments. The OGN spring finals had ~900k IIRC across livestreams, which doesn't include the people watching it on TV/live in korea.
Don't hate on how "easy" LoL is to play until you actually try it. It might not require the APM of starcraft but it places much more emphasis on reaction time and team coordination. (I'm pretty decent at LoL, D4 which is approximately equivalent to top 5 masters or so in SC2)
Not particularly hard to see why kespa chose to add LoL though. It's a massive game in Korea and has a large audience across the world.
Edit:: Feel free to join the the discussion of LoL, pokemon, costco and other assorted topics in the LoL GD thread here
Football is the most popular sport because is cheap to play it. The same reason applies to LoL. Still, despite that, we see tennis matches all around.
We can compare IRL sports with e-sports and you can conclude something like all the argument between lol and sc2.
After 3 years of sc2, we can conclude that sc2 is an individual e-sport. Every tournament we root for the player of our liking, we don't root for some team in particular. LOL, on the other hand, is a collective e-sport, just like football and tennis.
We are in 2013 and we still praise the way Federer plays tennis, or the way Barcelona plays football. We still root for Life and others still root for their favourite lol team.
Just deal with it, they are different disciplines (e-sports).
On July 04 2013 19:25 theking1 wrote: @spikestarcraft
so the fact that a moba resigns a contract with a company they already had a good contract with in the first placemakes you hate sc2 .Why can not you like sc2 for what it is .
@Alexj
Enlighten me a little bit.what is the difference between proleague and olympus champions beside different format?What will it bring to lol and how will it negatively impact sc2?
@evilfatsh
not you dota2 fans too.............why?what does this have to do with dota 2?You guys already have the 2 million dollar nexon thingy.How does negatively impact you...come on guys
how doesnt it? we all know kespa is what makes koreans pro scenes so god damn pro. so what if we have a big tournament sponsored by nexon? whos gonna win it? "pro" korean teams that would get owned by any pro b team from china/eu? kespa was the best bet for all aspiring dota 2 progamers, and now that it has been ruled out dota players have no alternative but to play in teams that probably dont have the knowledge nor the experience required to become top level. considering the fact that china and eu started playing the game YEARS before koreans did, it just got infinitely harder for koreans to rival the chinese and the western community.
dota 2 has a contract with gomtv which gave sc2 its greatest champions such as mvp,nestea,mma,drg,polt etc.only recently kespa went in the sc2 scene.gomtv champions are more than enough tackle any team in most esports.I would not be surprised if in 1 year kr teams start winning everything.And as for that matter the koreans did not even have a lol server and now they are dominating eu and na.Kespa is good but its not all that good.And many good lol teams such as mvp ozone although playing on ogn arent kespa affiliated.
top korean dota teams are behind some eu/na pubstack. they wont do anything in a year
People thought that about LoL too when season 1/WCG was still out and NA was dominating everything. One year to season 2, and top NA rarely took games, let alone series off top korean teams.
Don't be surprised if in a year the Koreans are up there with the Chinese.
LoL is probably so established in Korea that when DotA 2 is officially released to the public that Korean DotA 2 teams won't receive the funding & infrastructure that accelerated Korean play skill in LoL so quickly
I strongly believe that DotA 2 will not reach the same popularity of LoL anywhere in the world outside of China because Valve has been so slow in developing DotA 2 while Riot / LoL has been continually building a foothold in the MOBA space
Of course LoL is established better everywhere... It's Riots cash cow and they are reinvesting some of the revenue into popularizing the game, which apparently is a huge sum of money. Their aggressive strategy works really well, despite the fact that the game itself is falsely called free and is not the best game ever made. Valve at the same time needs 3+ years to put all the heroes in the game... Not to create them. Just to copy them into the game - they are already created. I can't see how they can win that race.
Uh.... what? Sure, you get minor, temporary advantages if you pay for IP boosts, but everything that actually affects in-game play can be bought with IP...
On July 05 2013 06:46 Lmui wrote: Don't hate on how "easy" LoL is to play until you actually try it. It might not require the APM of starcraft but it places much more emphasis on reaction time and team coordination. (I'm pretty decent at LoL, D4 which is approximately equivalent to top 5 masters or so in SC2)
The thing is, when you compare it to DotA, it is easier to play IMHO (I've tried both). It's like sc2, everyone agree that compared to BW, the game is easier, I see no differences when it comes to LoL, it's an easier game to play compared to its predecessor. I can assure you that if the game wasn't easier to play, you wouldn't see that many people play it.
I'm not trying to start a debate here as to which game is better, I like both. It's just that I don't like the model of LoL when it comes to eSport. I mean, as an eSport game, everyone should be able to play everything in the game without having to do some endless farming of stupid IP or buy some RP for real money to unlock their favorite champions or buy some runes to get some small advantages. This is where I prefer DotA over LoL and why I think it's more suited for eSport. I see LoL like an MMO where you need to play a very big amount of time before being able to enjoy the "end-game" and as an eSport, I found this pretty stupid. If I want to learn to play like a pro, I can't just jump in and learn, I've got a lot of farming ahead of me before doing so.
On July 04 2013 14:14 Empirimancer wrote: Sometimes I try to imagine how popular SC2 would be in Korea if it had been as accessible as Brood War in internet cafes and if bnet 2.0 had been well designed.
Then I get depressed and I think about something else.
Sometimes I try to imagine if Blizz dev team didn't make Starcraft 2 so noob friendly to keep the competitive level harsh just like BW. Surely a high percentage of Pro Koreans would've have switched to Starcraft 2 keeping the player base and viewer base the same to the new game.
LoL is more noob friendly than LoL. Different games and different audience. Also pro players who can not break into SC2 are trying LoL. Maybe we need more team leagues for SC2 to get more pro players noticed.
On July 05 2013 06:46 Lmui wrote: I'm somewhat surprised by the amount of people that think LoL doesn't have that many dedicated viewers. theOddOne and Voyboy consistently hit 30k+ viewers just streaming, LCS regularly breaks 150k viewers for a weekly four game show and that spikes up much higher for large tournaments. The OGN spring finals had ~900k IIRC across livestreams, which doesn't include the people watching it on TV/live in korea.
Don't hate on how "easy" LoL is to play until you actually try it. It might not require the APM of starcraft but it places much more emphasis on reaction time and team coordination. (I'm pretty decent at LoL, D4 which is approximately equivalent to top 5 masters or so in SC2)
Not particularly hard to see why kespa chose to add LoL though. It's a massive game in Korea and has a large audience across the world.
Edit:: Feel free to join the the discussion of LoL, pokemon, costco and other assorted topics in the LoL GD thread here
On July 04 2013 19:25 theking1 wrote: @spikestarcraft
so the fact that a moba resigns a contract with a company they already had a good contract with in the first placemakes you hate sc2 .Why can not you like sc2 for what it is .
@Alexj
Enlighten me a little bit.what is the difference between proleague and olympus champions beside different format?What will it bring to lol and how will it negatively impact sc2?
@evilfatsh
not you dota2 fans too.............why?what does this have to do with dota 2?You guys already have the 2 million dollar nexon thingy.How does negatively impact you...come on guys
how doesnt it? we all know kespa is what makes koreans pro scenes so god damn pro. so what if we have a big tournament sponsored by nexon? whos gonna win it? "pro" korean teams that would get owned by any pro b team from china/eu? kespa was the best bet for all aspiring dota 2 progamers, and now that it has been ruled out dota players have no alternative but to play in teams that probably dont have the knowledge nor the experience required to become top level. considering the fact that china and eu started playing the game YEARS before koreans did, it just got infinitely harder for koreans to rival the chinese and the western community.
dota 2 has a contract with gomtv which gave sc2 its greatest champions such as mvp,nestea,mma,drg,polt etc.only recently kespa went in the sc2 scene.gomtv champions are more than enough tackle any team in most esports.I would not be surprised if in 1 year kr teams start winning everything.And as for that matter the koreans did not even have a lol server and now they are dominating eu and na.Kespa is good but its not all that good.And many good lol teams such as mvp ozone although playing on ogn arent kespa affiliated.
top korean dota teams are behind some eu/na pubstack. they wont do anything in a year
People thought that about LoL too when season 1/WCG was still out and NA was dominating everything. One year to season 2, and top NA rarely took games, let alone series off top korean teams.
Don't be surprised if in a year the Koreans are up there with the Chinese.
Just a minor nitpick, EU won S1.
s1 doesn't have korea or any asians.
It had asian teams, did you forget about "Hotshotgg kick my brudda in the ass". Now the asian teams weren't very good however.
On July 04 2013 19:25 theking1 wrote: @spikestarcraft
so the fact that a moba resigns a contract with a company they already had a good contract with in the first placemakes you hate sc2 .Why can not you like sc2 for what it is .
@Alexj
Enlighten me a little bit.what is the difference between proleague and olympus champions beside different format?What will it bring to lol and how will it negatively impact sc2?
@evilfatsh
not you dota2 fans too.............why?what does this have to do with dota 2?You guys already have the 2 million dollar nexon thingy.How does negatively impact you...come on guys
how doesnt it? we all know kespa is what makes koreans pro scenes so god damn pro. so what if we have a big tournament sponsored by nexon? whos gonna win it? "pro" korean teams that would get owned by any pro b team from china/eu? kespa was the best bet for all aspiring dota 2 progamers, and now that it has been ruled out dota players have no alternative but to play in teams that probably dont have the knowledge nor the experience required to become top level. considering the fact that china and eu started playing the game YEARS before koreans did, it just got infinitely harder for koreans to rival the chinese and the western community.
dota 2 has a contract with gomtv which gave sc2 its greatest champions such as mvp,nestea,mma,drg,polt etc.only recently kespa went in the sc2 scene.gomtv champions are more than enough tackle any team in most esports.I would not be surprised if in 1 year kr teams start winning everything.And as for that matter the koreans did not even have a lol server and now they are dominating eu and na.Kespa is good but its not all that good.And many good lol teams such as mvp ozone although playing on ogn arent kespa affiliated.
top korean dota teams are behind some eu/na pubstack. they wont do anything in a year
People thought that about LoL too when season 1/WCG was still out and NA was dominating everything. One year to season 2, and top NA rarely took games, let alone series off top korean teams.
Don't be surprised if in a year the Koreans are up there with the Chinese.
Are you seriously comparing na lol team and chinese dota team ?
On July 05 2013 06:46 Lmui wrote: I'm somewhat surprised by the amount of people that think LoL doesn't have that many dedicated viewers. theOddOne and Voyboy consistently hit 30k+ viewers just streaming, LCS regularly breaks 150k viewers for a weekly four game show and that spikes up much higher for large tournaments. The OGN spring finals had ~900k IIRC across livestreams, which doesn't include the people watching it on TV/live in korea.
Don't hate on how "easy" LoL is to play until you actually try it. It might not require the APM of starcraft but it places much more emphasis on reaction time and team coordination. (I'm pretty decent at LoL, D4 which is approximately equivalent to top 5 masters or so in SC2)
Not particularly hard to see why kespa chose to add LoL though. It's a massive game in Korea and has a large audience across the world.
Edit:: Feel free to join the the discussion of LoL, pokemon, costco and other assorted topics in the LoL GD thread here
But when people are talking about dedicated viewers, they probably meant relative to its size. A 200k concurrent viewership for top LoL tourney is impressive, but not that impressive when it has 30 million active players. That's 0.6% of its user base
It has alot of room to grow and attract more of its user base to its competitive scene, thats for sure. Thus far they are not hitting anywhere near its potential. And honestly I don't see much more room for LoL to grow in the NA scene, but it has a ton of room to grow in Asia.
On July 04 2013 19:25 theking1 wrote: @spikestarcraft
so the fact that a moba resigns a contract with a company they already had a good contract with in the first placemakes you hate sc2 .Why can not you like sc2 for what it is .
@Alexj
Enlighten me a little bit.what is the difference between proleague and olympus champions beside different format?What will it bring to lol and how will it negatively impact sc2?
@evilfatsh
not you dota2 fans too.............why?what does this have to do with dota 2?You guys already have the 2 million dollar nexon thingy.How does negatively impact you...come on guys
how doesnt it? we all know kespa is what makes koreans pro scenes so god damn pro. so what if we have a big tournament sponsored by nexon? whos gonna win it? "pro" korean teams that would get owned by any pro b team from china/eu? kespa was the best bet for all aspiring dota 2 progamers, and now that it has been ruled out dota players have no alternative but to play in teams that probably dont have the knowledge nor the experience required to become top level. considering the fact that china and eu started playing the game YEARS before koreans did, it just got infinitely harder for koreans to rival the chinese and the western community.
dota 2 has a contract with gomtv which gave sc2 its greatest champions such as mvp,nestea,mma,drg,polt etc.only recently kespa went in the sc2 scene.gomtv champions are more than enough tackle any team in most esports.I would not be surprised if in 1 year kr teams start winning everything.And as for that matter the koreans did not even have a lol server and now they are dominating eu and na.Kespa is good but its not all that good.And many good lol teams such as mvp ozone although playing on ogn arent kespa affiliated.
top korean dota teams are behind some eu/na pubstack. they wont do anything in a year
People thought that about LoL too when season 1/WCG was still out and NA was dominating everything. One year to season 2, and top NA rarely took games, let alone series off top korean teams.
Don't be surprised if in a year the Koreans are up there with the Chinese.
Just a minor nitpick, EU won S1.
s1 doesn't have korea or any asians.
It had asian teams, did you forget about "Hotshotgg kick my brudda in the ass". Now the asian teams weren't very good however.
I don't think Asians in US count. I don't think LoL was even released in Taiwan/China/Korea back in season 1
On July 04 2013 14:14 Empirimancer wrote: Sometimes I try to imagine how popular SC2 would be in Korea if it had been as accessible as Brood War in internet cafes and if bnet 2.0 had been well designed.
Then I get depressed and I think about something else.
Sometimes I try to imagine if Blizz dev team didn't make Starcraft 2 so noob friendly to keep the competitive level harsh just like BW. Surely a high percentage of Pro Koreans would've have switched to Starcraft 2 keeping the player base and viewer base the same to the new game.
LoL is more noob friendly than LoL. Different games and different audience. Also pro players who can not break into SC2 are trying LoL. Maybe we need more team leagues for SC2 to get more pro players noticed.
It's... more noob friendly than itself? It's that noob friendly? o.0
BTW all the fucking people asking why this is in SC2 general need to learn to read the damn thread, I think I saw it explained about 3 times yet at least 20 asked why.
Personally I don't think this is awful, LoL isn't a bad game (I don't personally play it because I swapped to Dota 2 once I got a key). I just really hope that SPL remains and that we get LGIM and MVP joining in on the SC2PL.
On July 04 2013 19:25 theking1 wrote: @spikestarcraft
so the fact that a moba resigns a contract with a company they already had a good contract with in the first placemakes you hate sc2 .Why can not you like sc2 for what it is .
@Alexj
Enlighten me a little bit.what is the difference between proleague and olympus champions beside different format?What will it bring to lol and how will it negatively impact sc2?
@evilfatsh
not you dota2 fans too.............why?what does this have to do with dota 2?You guys already have the 2 million dollar nexon thingy.How does negatively impact you...come on guys
how doesnt it? we all know kespa is what makes koreans pro scenes so god damn pro. so what if we have a big tournament sponsored by nexon? whos gonna win it? "pro" korean teams that would get owned by any pro b team from china/eu? kespa was the best bet for all aspiring dota 2 progamers, and now that it has been ruled out dota players have no alternative but to play in teams that probably dont have the knowledge nor the experience required to become top level. considering the fact that china and eu started playing the game YEARS before koreans did, it just got infinitely harder for koreans to rival the chinese and the western community.
dota 2 has a contract with gomtv which gave sc2 its greatest champions such as mvp,nestea,mma,drg,polt etc.only recently kespa went in the sc2 scene.gomtv champions are more than enough tackle any team in most esports.I would not be surprised if in 1 year kr teams start winning everything.And as for that matter the koreans did not even have a lol server and now they are dominating eu and na.Kespa is good but its not all that good.And many good lol teams such as mvp ozone although playing on ogn arent kespa affiliated.
top korean dota teams are behind some eu/na pubstack. they wont do anything in a year
People thought that about LoL too when season 1/WCG was still out and NA was dominating everything. One year to season 2, and top NA rarely took games, let alone series off top korean teams.
Don't be surprised if in a year the Koreans are up there with the Chinese.
Just a minor nitpick, EU won S1.
s1 doesn't have korea or any asians.
It had asian teams, did you forget about "Hotshotgg kick my brudda in the ass". Now the asian teams weren't very good however.
I don't think Asians in US count. I don't think LoL was even released in Taiwan/China/Korea back in season 1
'
Those weren't asians in the US. Xan and Team Pacific were from the Phillipines and Singapore. They were not very good though and nothing compared to current korean/chinese teams
On July 05 2013 17:33 Khai wrote: T_T I was hoping for good news with SC2... This isn't bad news but indirectly indicates Kespa moving away from SC2 =S
On July 05 2013 17:33 Khai wrote: T_T I was hoping for good news with SC2... This isn't bad news but indirectly indicates Kespa moving away from SC2 =S
On the plus we may see LGIM and MVP join SPL.
If we have STX dying, AZUBU, ST, MVP, LG-IM and FXO joining we have a 12 team Proleague again. pretty cool. Prime and NSH to be absorbed. AxAcer to claim ownership over WCS AM.
On July 05 2013 17:33 Khai wrote: T_T I was hoping for good news with SC2... This isn't bad news but indirectly indicates Kespa moving away from SC2 =S
On the plus we may see LGIM and MVP join SPL.
If we have STX dying, AZUBU, ST, MVP, LG-IM and FXO joining we have a 12 team Proleague again. pretty cool. Prime and NSH to be absorbed. AxAcer to claim ownership over WCS AM.
On July 05 2013 06:46 Lmui wrote: I'm somewhat surprised by the amount of people that think LoL doesn't have that many dedicated viewers. theOddOne and Voyboy consistently hit 30k+ viewers just streaming, LCS regularly breaks 150k viewers for a weekly four game show and that spikes up much higher for large tournaments. The OGN spring finals had ~900k IIRC across livestreams, which doesn't include the people watching it on TV/live in korea.
Don't hate on how "easy" LoL is to play until you actually try it. It might not require the APM of starcraft but it places much more emphasis on reaction time and team coordination. (I'm pretty decent at LoL, D4 which is approximately equivalent to top 5 masters or so in SC2)
Not particularly hard to see why kespa chose to add LoL though. It's a massive game in Korea and has a large audience across the world.
Edit:: Feel free to join the the discussion of LoL, pokemon, costco and other assorted topics in the LoL GD thread here
I mean you do make some solid points, though I fail to comprehend why you use peak concurrent for viewership indication, but a lot of people seem to enjoy doing that, so w/e. What really grinds my gears is your second paragraph. Did you never touch any other moba? People don't (or shouldn't) bitch about lol being easier than star 2, ofc it is moba is just removing makro and a large amount of multitasking from rts, the issue is that lol is literally the easiest, most dumbed down, game of it's genre. They removed being able to deny creeps, there is no courrier (unless they added it by now) and that list goes on forever, but I think someone who actually plays a lot of moba should tell you, I don't see why I'd touch a castrated rts when I can just play a real one. But seriously LoL is by far one of the most dumbed down games of the 21st century, basically the cod of moba.
adding LoL is not "moving away from sc2" it means they like money and can easily add another division to their broadcast that will easily be productive for them.
On July 05 2013 19:46 iNcontroL wrote: adding LoL is not "moving away from sc2" it means they like money and can easily add another division to their broadcast that will easily be productive for them.
One doesn't preclude the other. OGN added LoL, and it quickly became their primary focus.
On July 05 2013 06:46 Lmui wrote: I'm somewhat surprised by the amount of people that think LoL doesn't have that many dedicated viewers. theOddOne and Voyboy consistently hit 30k+ viewers just streaming, LCS regularly breaks 150k viewers for a weekly four game show and that spikes up much higher for large tournaments. The OGN spring finals had ~900k IIRC across livestreams, which doesn't include the people watching it on TV/live in korea.
Don't hate on how "easy" LoL is to play until you actually try it. It might not require the APM of starcraft but it places much more emphasis on reaction time and team coordination. (I'm pretty decent at LoL, D4 which is approximately equivalent to top 5 masters or so in SC2)
Not particularly hard to see why kespa chose to add LoL though. It's a massive game in Korea and has a large audience across the world.
Edit:: Feel free to join the the discussion of LoL, pokemon, costco and other assorted topics in the LoL GD thread here
I mean you do make some solid points, though I fail to comprehend why you use peak concurrent for viewership indication, but a lot of people seem to enjoy doing that, so w/e. What really grinds my gears is your second paragraph. Did you never touch any other moba? People don't (or shouldn't) bitch about lol being easier than star 2, ofc it is moba is just removing makro and a large amount of multitasking from rts, the issue is that lol is literally the easiest, most dumbed down, game of it's genre. They removed being able to deny creeps, there is no courrier (unless they added it by now) and that list goes on forever, but I think someone who actually plays a lot of moba should tell you, I don't see why I'd touch a castrated rts when I can just play a real one. But seriously LoL is by far one of the most dumbed down games of the 21st century, basically the cod of moba.
Do you think LoL has consistently more fans/viewers and players because it is easier than Dota2 and SC2 or... could it be that it's just more fun?
I used to play BW, I used to play SC2, I used to play Dota2 (used to play the original Dota WC3 custom map consistently as well) and guess what?
Still playing LoL. It took me a while to start though, because so many peope (particularly on TL) were spewing shit about how it was nothing but a cheap knockoff. Now I won't even try to argue that LoL isn't as easy as you might think, nobody wants to hear that, but I will say that a harder game is not automatically a better game.
edit: By the way, it irks me that SC2/Dota2 people speak of LoL as if they had any kind of high ground when it comes to the difficulty in their game. Did any of you even play BW? SC2 is like finger painting compared to that. Though what is even more baffling is that you would think you are somehow better, somehow cooler, somehow more of a "real gamer" than anyone else based on which game you play. Nobody is impressed, what the fuck are you doing?
On July 05 2013 19:46 iNcontroL wrote: adding LoL is not "moving away from sc2" it means they like money and can easily add another division to their broadcast that will easily be productive for them.
One doesn't preclude the other. OGN added LoL, and it quickly became their primary focus.
What ? They are showing OSL and PL as well as their LoL league... How can you say that LoL is their primary focus and SC2 is not ? They are showing both games so they benefit from both and I doubt that any TV channel will prioritize one prime time show over the other prime time show.
On July 05 2013 19:46 iNcontroL wrote: adding LoL is not "moving away from sc2" it means they like money and can easily add another division to their broadcast that will easily be productive for them.
Even if this is true. The sc2 division will not see a penny of that money while it is safe to assume that Kespa will relocate a significant amount of their resources to LOL.
Why would Kespa reduce funding for a number of SC teams if new money is coming into sc2(Major T8)?
On July 05 2013 06:46 Lmui wrote: I'm somewhat surprised by the amount of people that think LoL doesn't have that many dedicated viewers. theOddOne and Voyboy consistently hit 30k+ viewers just streaming, LCS regularly breaks 150k viewers for a weekly four game show and that spikes up much higher for large tournaments. The OGN spring finals had ~900k IIRC across livestreams, which doesn't include the people watching it on TV/live in korea.
Don't hate on how "easy" LoL is to play until you actually try it. It might not require the APM of starcraft but it places much more emphasis on reaction time and team coordination. (I'm pretty decent at LoL, D4 which is approximately equivalent to top 5 masters or so in SC2)
Not particularly hard to see why kespa chose to add LoL though. It's a massive game in Korea and has a large audience across the world.
Edit:: Feel free to join the the discussion of LoL, pokemon, costco and other assorted topics in the LoL GD thread here
I mean you do make some solid points, though I fail to comprehend why you use peak concurrent for viewership indication, but a lot of people seem to enjoy doing that, so w/e. What really grinds my gears is your second paragraph. Did you never touch any other moba? People don't (or shouldn't) bitch about lol being easier than star 2, ofc it is moba is just removing makro and a large amount of multitasking from rts, the issue is that lol is literally the easiest, most dumbed down, game of it's genre. They removed being able to deny creeps, there is no courrier (unless they added it by now) and that list goes on forever, but I think someone who actually plays a lot of moba should tell you, I don't see why I'd touch a castrated rts when I can just play a real one. But seriously LoL is by far one of the most dumbed down games of the 21st century, basically the cod of moba.
Do you think LoL has consistently more fans/viewers and players because it is easier than Dota2 and SC2 or... could it be that it's just more fun?
I used to play BW, I used to play SC2, I used to play Dota2 (used to play the original Dota WC3 custom map consistently as well) and guess what?
Still playing LoL. It took me a while to start though, because so many peope (particularly on TL) were spewing shit about how it was nothing but a cheap knockoff. Now I won't even try to argue that LoL isn't as easy as you might think, nobody wants to hear that, but I will say that a harder game is not automatically a better game.
edit: By the way, it irks me that SC2/Dota2 people speak of LoL as if they had any kind of high ground when it comes to the difficulty in their game. Did any of you even play BW? SC2 is like finger painting compared to that. Though what is even more baffling is that you would think you are somehow better, somehow cooler, somehow more of a "real gamer" than anyone else based on which game you play. Nobody is impressed, what the fuck are you doing?
On July 05 2013 06:46 Lmui wrote: I'm somewhat surprised by the amount of people that think LoL doesn't have that many dedicated viewers. theOddOne and Voyboy consistently hit 30k+ viewers just streaming, LCS regularly breaks 150k viewers for a weekly four game show and that spikes up much higher for large tournaments. The OGN spring finals had ~900k IIRC across livestreams, which doesn't include the people watching it on TV/live in korea.
Don't hate on how "easy" LoL is to play until you actually try it. It might not require the APM of starcraft but it places much more emphasis on reaction time and team coordination. (I'm pretty decent at LoL, D4 which is approximately equivalent to top 5 masters or so in SC2)
Not particularly hard to see why kespa chose to add LoL though. It's a massive game in Korea and has a large audience across the world.
Edit:: Feel free to join the the discussion of LoL, pokemon, costco and other assorted topics in the LoL GD thread here
I mean you do make some solid points, though I fail to comprehend why you use peak concurrent for viewership indication, but a lot of people seem to enjoy doing that, so w/e. What really grinds my gears is your second paragraph. Did you never touch any other moba? People don't (or shouldn't) bitch about lol being easier than star 2, ofc it is moba is just removing makro and a large amount of multitasking from rts, the issue is that lol is literally the easiest, most dumbed down, game of it's genre. They removed being able to deny creeps, there is no courrier (unless they added it by now) and that list goes on forever, but I think someone who actually plays a lot of moba should tell you, I don't see why I'd touch a castrated rts when I can just play a real one. But seriously LoL is by far one of the most dumbed down games of the 21st century, basically the cod of moba.
Do you think LoL has consistently more fans/viewers and players because it is easier than Dota2 and SC2 or... could it be that it's just more fun?
I used to play BW, I used to play SC2, I used to play Dota2 (used to play the original Dota WC3 custom map consistently as well) and guess what?
Still playing LoL. It took me a while to start though, because so many peope (particularly on TL) were spewing shit about how it was nothing but a cheap knockoff. Now I won't even try to argue that LoL isn't as easy as you might think, nobody wants to hear that, but I will say that a harder game is not automatically a better game.
edit: By the way, it irks me that SC2/Dota2 people speak of LoL as if they had any kind of high ground when it comes to the difficulty in their game. Did any of you even play BW? SC2 is like finger painting compared to that. Though what is even more baffling is that you would think you are somehow better, somehow cooler, somehow more of a "real gamer" than anyone else based on which game you play. Nobody is impressed, what the fuck are you doing?
Yeah I do and I still play brood war on atleast a weekly base, daily if I had the time. I'm not saying you are shit if you play LoL I'm saying it's the easiest possible moba, and yeah I do think thats why it has the largest popularity. I mean lets look back at fps pc games when they were still popular. Quake is way way harder than cs, but cs eventually took over. Hell even console fps started esports wise at halo 1 which is basically quake ported on a console (in terms of multiplayer) and it was dumbed down all the way to cod bo2 nowadays. The easiest game will always be the most popular one as people don't enjoy challenges that are really hard, they enjoy achievements, they enjoy feeling like they are "good" they enjoy doing shit with their friends (thus team games will always be more popular than 1 v 1) and they love unlocking shit. While in bw, and even to a certain extend in star 2, you have to put hours and hour into it to be actually able to play properly, anyone can just play a bunch of games of lol and feel like they accomplished something. It's an issue of society and people prefer to view the easy path as more fun. Again I couldn't care less how others view me or w/e, and if I'd had made star 2 it wouldn't have automine, autorally, ulbs and all that shit, but I actually enjoy sucking at games and putting hours and hours of time (that I don't even have nowadays) into them to become decent and star 2 has a decent popularity while bw is dead so thats where I spent my time. I just find it sad that two of the most popular games in esports these days are also the most dumbed down ones of their genre (lol and cod), and thats just my personal opinion as I prefer to be "holy fuck I can't even comprehend how he did that" over "meh my 12 years old cousin could do that too" when watching esports.
On July 05 2013 06:46 Lmui wrote: I'm somewhat surprised by the amount of people that think LoL doesn't have that many dedicated viewers. theOddOne and Voyboy consistently hit 30k+ viewers just streaming, LCS regularly breaks 150k viewers for a weekly four game show and that spikes up much higher for large tournaments. The OGN spring finals had ~900k IIRC across livestreams, which doesn't include the people watching it on TV/live in korea.
Don't hate on how "easy" LoL is to play until you actually try it. It might not require the APM of starcraft but it places much more emphasis on reaction time and team coordination. (I'm pretty decent at LoL, D4 which is approximately equivalent to top 5 masters or so in SC2)
Not particularly hard to see why kespa chose to add LoL though. It's a massive game in Korea and has a large audience across the world.
Edit:: Feel free to join the the discussion of LoL, pokemon, costco and other assorted topics in the LoL GD thread here
I mean you do make some solid points, though I fail to comprehend why you use peak concurrent for viewership indication, but a lot of people seem to enjoy doing that, so w/e. What really grinds my gears is your second paragraph. Did you never touch any other moba? People don't (or shouldn't) bitch about lol being easier than star 2, ofc it is moba is just removing makro and a large amount of multitasking from rts, the issue is that lol is literally the easiest, most dumbed down, game of it's genre. They removed being able to deny creeps, there is no courrier (unless they added it by now) and that list goes on forever, but I think someone who actually plays a lot of moba should tell you, I don't see why I'd touch a castrated rts when I can just play a real one. But seriously LoL is by far one of the most dumbed down games of the 21st century, basically the cod of moba.
Do you think LoL has consistently more fans/viewers and players because it is easier than Dota2 and SC2 or... could it be that it's just more fun?
I used to play BW, I used to play SC2, I used to play Dota2 (used to play the original Dota WC3 custom map consistently as well) and guess what?
Still playing LoL. It took me a while to start though, because so many peope (particularly on TL) were spewing shit about how it was nothing but a cheap knockoff. Now I won't even try to argue that LoL isn't as easy as you might think, nobody wants to hear that, but I will say that a harder game is not automatically a better game.
edit: By the way, it irks me that SC2/Dota2 people speak of LoL as if they had any kind of high ground when it comes to the difficulty in their game. Did any of you even play BW? SC2 is like finger painting compared to that. Though what is even more baffling is that you would think you are somehow better, somehow cooler, somehow more of a "real gamer" than anyone else based on which game you play. Nobody is impressed, what the fuck are you doing?
Yeah I do and I still play brood war on atleast a weekly base, daily if I had the time. I'm not saying you are shit if you play LoL I'm saying it's the easiest possible moba, and yeah I do think thats why it has the largest popularity. I mean lets look back at fps pc games when they were still popular. Quake is way way harder than cs, but cs eventually took over. Hell even console fps started esports wise at halo 1 which is basically quake ported on a console (in terms of multiplayer) and it was dumbed down all the way to cod bo2 nowadays. The easiest game will always be the most popular one as people don't enjoy challenges that are really hard, they enjoy achievements, they enjoy feeling like they are "good" they enjoy doing shit with their friends (thus team games will always be more popular than 1 v 1) and they love unlocking shit. While in bw, and even to a certain extend in star 2, you have to put hours and hour into it to be actually able to play properly, anyone can just play a bunch of games of lol and feel like they accomplished something. It's an issue of society and people prefer to view the easy path as more fun. Again I couldn't care less how others view me or w/e, and if I'd had made star 2 it wouldn't have automine, autorally, ulbs and all that shit, but I actually enjoy sucking at games and putting hours and hours of time (that I don't even have nowadays) into them to become decent and star 2 has a decent popularity while bw is dead so thats where I spent my time. I just find it sad that two of the most popular games in esports these days are also the most dumbed down ones of their genre (lol and cod), and thats just my personal opinion as I prefer to be "holy fuck I can't even comprehend how he did that" over "meh my 12 years old cousin could do that too" when watching esports.
"While in bw, and even to a certain extend in star 2, you have to put hours and hour into it to be actually able to play properly, anyone can just play a bunch of games of lol and feel like they accomplished something."
Because playing a bunch of games of League of Legends and putting hours and hours into Starcraft 2 are somehow different. Please inform me of how playing a "bunch" of LoL games isn't putting hour and hours into it.
On July 05 2013 06:46 Lmui wrote: I'm somewhat surprised by the amount of people that think LoL doesn't have that many dedicated viewers. theOddOne and Voyboy consistently hit 30k+ viewers just streaming, LCS regularly breaks 150k viewers for a weekly four game show and that spikes up much higher for large tournaments. The OGN spring finals had ~900k IIRC across livestreams, which doesn't include the people watching it on TV/live in korea.
Don't hate on how "easy" LoL is to play until you actually try it. It might not require the APM of starcraft but it places much more emphasis on reaction time and team coordination. (I'm pretty decent at LoL, D4 which is approximately equivalent to top 5 masters or so in SC2)
Not particularly hard to see why kespa chose to add LoL though. It's a massive game in Korea and has a large audience across the world.
Edit:: Feel free to join the the discussion of LoL, pokemon, costco and other assorted topics in the LoL GD thread here
I mean you do make some solid points, though I fail to comprehend why you use peak concurrent for viewership indication, but a lot of people seem to enjoy doing that, so w/e. What really grinds my gears is your second paragraph. Did you never touch any other moba? People don't (or shouldn't) bitch about lol being easier than star 2, ofc it is moba is just removing makro and a large amount of multitasking from rts, the issue is that lol is literally the easiest, most dumbed down, game of it's genre. They removed being able to deny creeps, there is no courrier (unless they added it by now) and that list goes on forever, but I think someone who actually plays a lot of moba should tell you, I don't see why I'd touch a castrated rts when I can just play a real one. But seriously LoL is by far one of the most dumbed down games of the 21st century, basically the cod of moba.
Do you think LoL has consistently more fans/viewers and players because it is easier than Dota2 and SC2 or... could it be that it's just more fun?
I used to play BW, I used to play SC2, I used to play Dota2 (used to play the original Dota WC3 custom map consistently as well) and guess what?
Still playing LoL. It took me a while to start though, because so many peope (particularly on TL) were spewing shit about how it was nothing but a cheap knockoff. Now I won't even try to argue that LoL isn't as easy as you might think, nobody wants to hear that, but I will say that a harder game is not automatically a better game.
edit: By the way, it irks me that SC2/Dota2 people speak of LoL as if they had any kind of high ground when it comes to the difficulty in their game. Did any of you even play BW? SC2 is like finger painting compared to that. Though what is even more baffling is that you would think you are somehow better, somehow cooler, somehow more of a "real gamer" than anyone else based on which game you play. Nobody is impressed, what the fuck are you doing?
Yeah I do and I still play brood war on atleast a weekly base, daily if I had the time. I'm not saying you are shit if you play LoL I'm saying it's the easiest possible moba, and yeah I do think thats why it has the largest popularity. I mean lets look back at fps pc games when they were still popular. Quake is way way harder than cs, but cs eventually took over. Hell even console fps started esports wise at halo 1 which is basically quake ported on a console (in terms of multiplayer) and it was dumbed down all the way to cod bo2 nowadays. The easiest game will always be the most popular one as people don't enjoy challenges that are really hard, they enjoy achievements, they enjoy feeling like they are "good" they enjoy doing shit with their friends (thus team games will always be more popular than 1 v 1) and they love unlocking shit. While in bw, and even to a certain extend in star 2, you have to put hours and hour into it to be actually able to play properly, anyone can just play a bunch of games of lol and feel like they accomplished something. It's an issue of society and people prefer to view the easy path as more fun. Again I couldn't care less how others view me or w/e, and if I'd had made star 2 it wouldn't have automine, autorally, ulbs and all that shit, but I actually enjoy sucking at games and putting hours and hours of time (that I don't even have nowadays) into them to become decent and star 2 has a decent popularity while bw is dead so thats where I spent my time. I just find it sad that two of the most popular games in esports these days are also the most dumbed down ones of their genre (lol and cod), and thats just my personal opinion as I prefer to be "holy fuck I can't even comprehend how he did that" over "meh my 12 years old cousin could do that too" when watching esports.
"While in bw, and even to a certain extend in star 2, you have to put hours and hour into it to be actually able to play properly, anyone can just play a bunch of games of lol and feel like they accomplished something."
Because playing a bunch of games of League of Legends and putting hours and hours into Starcraft 2 are somehow different. Please inform me of how playing a "bunch" of LoL games isn't putting hour and hours into it.
Your ignorance amuses me. Please continue.
What? Do you fail to comprehend what I'm saying? Sorry but I don't talk to people who call me ignorant while they fail to even show basic reading comprehension.
On July 05 2013 06:46 Lmui wrote: I'm somewhat surprised by the amount of people that think LoL doesn't have that many dedicated viewers. theOddOne and Voyboy consistently hit 30k+ viewers just streaming, LCS regularly breaks 150k viewers for a weekly four game show and that spikes up much higher for large tournaments. The OGN spring finals had ~900k IIRC across livestreams, which doesn't include the people watching it on TV/live in korea.
Don't hate on how "easy" LoL is to play until you actually try it. It might not require the APM of starcraft but it places much more emphasis on reaction time and team coordination. (I'm pretty decent at LoL, D4 which is approximately equivalent to top 5 masters or so in SC2)
Not particularly hard to see why kespa chose to add LoL though. It's a massive game in Korea and has a large audience across the world.
Edit:: Feel free to join the the discussion of LoL, pokemon, costco and other assorted topics in the LoL GD thread here
I mean you do make some solid points, though I fail to comprehend why you use peak concurrent for viewership indication, but a lot of people seem to enjoy doing that, so w/e. What really grinds my gears is your second paragraph. Did you never touch any other moba? People don't (or shouldn't) bitch about lol being easier than star 2, ofc it is moba is just removing makro and a large amount of multitasking from rts, the issue is that lol is literally the easiest, most dumbed down, game of it's genre. They removed being able to deny creeps, there is no courrier (unless they added it by now) and that list goes on forever, but I think someone who actually plays a lot of moba should tell you, I don't see why I'd touch a castrated rts when I can just play a real one. But seriously LoL is by far one of the most dumbed down games of the 21st century, basically the cod of moba.
Do you think LoL has consistently more fans/viewers and players because it is easier than Dota2 and SC2 or... could it be that it's just more fun?
I used to play BW, I used to play SC2, I used to play Dota2 (used to play the original Dota WC3 custom map consistently as well) and guess what?
Still playing LoL. It took me a while to start though, because so many peope (particularly on TL) were spewing shit about how it was nothing but a cheap knockoff. Now I won't even try to argue that LoL isn't as easy as you might think, nobody wants to hear that, but I will say that a harder game is not automatically a better game.
edit: By the way, it irks me that SC2/Dota2 people speak of LoL as if they had any kind of high ground when it comes to the difficulty in their game. Did any of you even play BW? SC2 is like finger painting compared to that. Though what is even more baffling is that you would think you are somehow better, somehow cooler, somehow more of a "real gamer" than anyone else based on which game you play. Nobody is impressed, what the fuck are you doing?
Yeah I do and I still play brood war on atleast a weekly base, daily if I had the time. I'm not saying you are shit if you play LoL I'm saying it's the easiest possible moba, and yeah I do think thats why it has the largest popularity. I mean lets look back at fps pc games when they were still popular. Quake is way way harder than cs, but cs eventually took over. Hell even console fps started esports wise at halo 1 which is basically quake ported on a console (in terms of multiplayer) and it was dumbed down all the way to cod bo2 nowadays. The easiest game will always be the most popular one as people don't enjoy challenges that are really hard, they enjoy achievements, they enjoy feeling like they are "good" they enjoy doing shit with their friends (thus team games will always be more popular than 1 v 1) and they love unlocking shit. While in bw, and even to a certain extend in star 2, you have to put hours and hour into it to be actually able to play properly, anyone can just play a bunch of games of lol and feel like they accomplished something. It's an issue of society and people prefer to view the easy path as more fun. Again I couldn't care less how others view me or w/e, and if I'd had made star 2 it wouldn't have automine, autorally, ulbs and all that shit, but I actually enjoy sucking at games and putting hours and hours of time (that I don't even have nowadays) into them to become decent and star 2 has a decent popularity while bw is dead so thats where I spent my time. I just find it sad that two of the most popular games in esports these days are also the most dumbed down ones of their genre (lol and cod), and thats just my personal opinion as I prefer to be "holy fuck I can't even comprehend how he did that" over "meh my 12 years old cousin could do that too" when watching esports.
"While in bw, and even to a certain extend in star 2, you have to put hours and hour into it to be actually able to play properly, anyone can just play a bunch of games of lol and feel like they accomplished something."
Because playing a bunch of games of League of Legends and putting hours and hours into Starcraft 2 are somehow different. Please inform me of how playing a "bunch" of LoL games isn't putting hour and hours into it.
Your ignorance amuses me. Please continue.
He is a dumbed down poster. Everybody can post something on TL and think he is the boss.
On July 05 2013 06:46 Lmui wrote: I'm somewhat surprised by the amount of people that think LoL doesn't have that many dedicated viewers. theOddOne and Voyboy consistently hit 30k+ viewers just streaming, LCS regularly breaks 150k viewers for a weekly four game show and that spikes up much higher for large tournaments. The OGN spring finals had ~900k IIRC across livestreams, which doesn't include the people watching it on TV/live in korea.
Don't hate on how "easy" LoL is to play until you actually try it. It might not require the APM of starcraft but it places much more emphasis on reaction time and team coordination. (I'm pretty decent at LoL, D4 which is approximately equivalent to top 5 masters or so in SC2)
Not particularly hard to see why kespa chose to add LoL though. It's a massive game in Korea and has a large audience across the world.
Edit:: Feel free to join the the discussion of LoL, pokemon, costco and other assorted topics in the LoL GD thread here
I mean you do make some solid points, though I fail to comprehend why you use peak concurrent for viewership indication, but a lot of people seem to enjoy doing that, so w/e. What really grinds my gears is your second paragraph. Did you never touch any other moba? People don't (or shouldn't) bitch about lol being easier than star 2, ofc it is moba is just removing makro and a large amount of multitasking from rts, the issue is that lol is literally the easiest, most dumbed down, game of it's genre. They removed being able to deny creeps, there is no courrier (unless they added it by now) and that list goes on forever, but I think someone who actually plays a lot of moba should tell you, I don't see why I'd touch a castrated rts when I can just play a real one. But seriously LoL is by far one of the most dumbed down games of the 21st century, basically the cod of moba.
Do you think LoL has consistently more fans/viewers and players because it is easier than Dota2 and SC2 or... could it be that it's just more fun?
I used to play BW, I used to play SC2, I used to play Dota2 (used to play the original Dota WC3 custom map consistently as well) and guess what?
Still playing LoL. It took me a while to start though, because so many peope (particularly on TL) were spewing shit about how it was nothing but a cheap knockoff. Now I won't even try to argue that LoL isn't as easy as you might think, nobody wants to hear that, but I will say that a harder game is not automatically a better game.
edit: By the way, it irks me that SC2/Dota2 people speak of LoL as if they had any kind of high ground when it comes to the difficulty in their game. Did any of you even play BW? SC2 is like finger painting compared to that. Though what is even more baffling is that you would think you are somehow better, somehow cooler, somehow more of a "real gamer" than anyone else based on which game you play. Nobody is impressed, what the fuck are you doing?
Yeah I do and I still play brood war on atleast a weekly base, daily if I had the time. I'm not saying you are shit if you play LoL I'm saying it's the easiest possible moba, and yeah I do think thats why it has the largest popularity. I mean lets look back at fps pc games when they were still popular. Quake is way way harder than cs, but cs eventually took over. Hell even console fps started esports wise at halo 1 which is basically quake ported on a console (in terms of multiplayer) and it was dumbed down all the way to cod bo2 nowadays. The easiest game will always be the most popular one as people don't enjoy challenges that are really hard, they enjoy achievements, they enjoy feeling like they are "good" they enjoy doing shit with their friends (thus team games will always be more popular than 1 v 1) and they love unlocking shit. While in bw, and even to a certain extend in star 2, you have to put hours and hour into it to be actually able to play properly, anyone can just play a bunch of games of lol and feel like they accomplished something. It's an issue of society and people prefer to view the easy path as more fun. Again I couldn't care less how others view me or w/e, and if I'd had made star 2 it wouldn't have automine, autorally, ulbs and all that shit, but I actually enjoy sucking at games and putting hours and hours of time (that I don't even have nowadays) into them to become decent and star 2 has a decent popularity while bw is dead so thats where I spent my time. I just find it sad that two of the most popular games in esports these days are also the most dumbed down ones of their genre (lol and cod), and thats just my personal opinion as I prefer to be "holy fuck I can't even comprehend how he did that" over "meh my 12 years old cousin could do that too" when watching esports.
"While in bw, and even to a certain extend in star 2, you have to put hours and hour into it to be actually able to play properly, anyone can just play a bunch of games of lol and feel like they accomplished something."
Because playing a bunch of games of League of Legends and putting hours and hours into Starcraft 2 are somehow different. Please inform me of how playing a "bunch" of LoL games isn't putting hour and hours into it.
Your ignorance amuses me. Please continue.
What? Do you fail to comprehend what I'm saying? Sorry but I don't talk to people who call me ignorant while they fail to even show basic reading comprehension.
No. I understood what you're saying. Your lack of knowledge about playing League at a high level is amusing to me. You don't just become good at the game because you can last hit and understand the basics. That's the equivalent of learning to macro in SC2. So please, continue.
On July 05 2013 19:46 iNcontroL wrote: adding LoL is not "moving away from sc2" it means they like money and can easily add another division to their broadcast that will easily be productive for them.
Ye, maybe we can even make a hybrid league where it's Bo5 sc2 but the ace match is LoL. That way they can promote both games equally yea?
On July 05 2013 19:46 iNcontroL wrote: adding LoL is not "moving away from sc2" it means they like money and can easily add another division to their broadcast that will easily be productive for them.
One doesn't preclude the other. OGN added LoL, and it quickly became their primary focus.
Yes. But they also added much more SC2 since that. They actually added more SC2 AFTER they already had LoL ongoing. I don't think it will be much more of a problem. Depends what sponsors who don't already have LoL team (like Samsung, Woongjin, STX (if they don' die)) do - if they cut their sponsoring of SC2 or just add LoL team on top of that. Judging from KT/SKT/CJ, they will probably just add LoL and everything will stay the same for SC2.
EDIT: Well, ok, maybe not everything. They probably lose the primary time slot on Saturday/Sunday on OGN and they will either switch with SPOTV (so SPOTV Saturday/Sunday, OGN Monday/Tuesday) or the broadcast will move to SPOTV completely. Assuming SPOTV continues the broadcasts, for the next season, ofc.
On July 05 2013 23:57 ptrpb wrote: fuck all this league, dota, starcraft bitching when's kespa going to pick up fighting games? THE MOST SUPERIOR ESPORT
hmm yeah since MBCGame has been gone I don't think fighting games have been on korean TV.
On July 05 2013 06:46 Lmui wrote: I'm somewhat surprised by the amount of people that think LoL doesn't have that many dedicated viewers. theOddOne and Voyboy consistently hit 30k+ viewers just streaming, LCS regularly breaks 150k viewers for a weekly four game show and that spikes up much higher for large tournaments. The OGN spring finals had ~900k IIRC across livestreams, which doesn't include the people watching it on TV/live in korea.
Don't hate on how "easy" LoL is to play until you actually try it. It might not require the APM of starcraft but it places much more emphasis on reaction time and team coordination. (I'm pretty decent at LoL, D4 which is approximately equivalent to top 5 masters or so in SC2)
Not particularly hard to see why kespa chose to add LoL though. It's a massive game in Korea and has a large audience across the world.
Edit:: Feel free to join the the discussion of LoL, pokemon, costco and other assorted topics in the LoL GD thread here
I mean you do make some solid points, though I fail to comprehend why you use peak concurrent for viewership indication, but a lot of people seem to enjoy doing that, so w/e. What really grinds my gears is your second paragraph. Did you never touch any other moba? People don't (or shouldn't) bitch about lol being easier than star 2, ofc it is moba is just removing makro and a large amount of multitasking from rts, the issue is that lol is literally the easiest, most dumbed down, game of it's genre. They removed being able to deny creeps, there is no courrier (unless they added it by now) and that list goes on forever, but I think someone who actually plays a lot of moba should tell you, I don't see why I'd touch a castrated rts when I can just play a real one. But seriously LoL is by far one of the most dumbed down games of the 21st century, basically the cod of moba.
Do you think LoL has consistently more fans/viewers and players because it is easier than Dota2 and SC2 or... could it be that it's just more fun?
I used to play BW, I used to play SC2, I used to play Dota2 (used to play the original Dota WC3 custom map consistently as well) and guess what?
Still playing LoL. It took me a while to start though, because so many peope (particularly on TL) were spewing shit about how it was nothing but a cheap knockoff. Now I won't even try to argue that LoL isn't as easy as you might think, nobody wants to hear that, but I will say that a harder game is not automatically a better game.
edit: By the way, it irks me that SC2/Dota2 people speak of LoL as if they had any kind of high ground when it comes to the difficulty in their game. Did any of you even play BW? SC2 is like finger painting compared to that. Though what is even more baffling is that you would think you are somehow better, somehow cooler, somehow more of a "real gamer" than anyone else based on which game you play. Nobody is impressed, what the fuck are you doing?
Yeah I do and I still play brood war on atleast a weekly base, daily if I had the time. I'm not saying you are shit if you play LoL I'm saying it's the easiest possible moba, and yeah I do think thats why it has the largest popularity. I mean lets look back at fps pc games when they were still popular. Quake is way way harder than cs, but cs eventually took over. Hell even console fps started esports wise at halo 1 which is basically quake ported on a console (in terms of multiplayer) and it was dumbed down all the way to cod bo2 nowadays. The easiest game will always be the most popular one as people don't enjoy challenges that are really hard, they enjoy achievements, they enjoy feeling like they are "good" they enjoy doing shit with their friends (thus team games will always be more popular than 1 v 1) and they love unlocking shit. While in bw, and even to a certain extend in star 2, you have to put hours and hour into it to be actually able to play properly, anyone can just play a bunch of games of lol and feel like they accomplished something. It's an issue of society and people prefer to view the easy path as more fun. Again I couldn't care less how others view me or w/e, and if I'd had made star 2 it wouldn't have automine, autorally, ulbs and all that shit, but I actually enjoy sucking at games and putting hours and hours of time (that I don't even have nowadays) into them to become decent and star 2 has a decent popularity while bw is dead so thats where I spent my time. I just find it sad that two of the most popular games in esports these days are also the most dumbed down ones of their genre (lol and cod), and thats just my personal opinion as I prefer to be "holy fuck I can't even comprehend how he did that" over "meh my 12 years old cousin could do that too" when watching esports.
"While in bw, and even to a certain extend in star 2, you have to put hours and hour into it to be actually able to play properly, anyone can just play a bunch of games of lol and feel like they accomplished something."
Because playing a bunch of games of League of Legends and putting hours and hours into Starcraft 2 are somehow different. Please inform me of how playing a "bunch" of LoL games isn't putting hour and hours into it.
Your ignorance amuses me. Please continue.
What? Do you fail to comprehend what I'm saying? Sorry but I don't talk to people who call me ignorant while they fail to even show basic reading comprehension.
let's put it this way:
let's assume that checkers/draughts is more popular than chess worldwide. we all know checkers is the easier game, fast to pick up and quick to play. however, those passionate about strategy games (through whatever medium eg. board, PC) know that checkers is nothing compared to chess. in terms of challenge, depth, possibilities...nothing.
On July 05 2013 23:57 ptrpb wrote: fuck all this league, dota, starcraft bitching when's kespa going to pick up fighting games? THE MOST SUPERIOR ESPORT
On July 05 2013 06:46 Lmui wrote: I'm somewhat surprised by the amount of people that think LoL doesn't have that many dedicated viewers. theOddOne and Voyboy consistently hit 30k+ viewers just streaming, LCS regularly breaks 150k viewers for a weekly four game show and that spikes up much higher for large tournaments. The OGN spring finals had ~900k IIRC across livestreams, which doesn't include the people watching it on TV/live in korea.
Don't hate on how "easy" LoL is to play until you actually try it. It might not require the APM of starcraft but it places much more emphasis on reaction time and team coordination. (I'm pretty decent at LoL, D4 which is approximately equivalent to top 5 masters or so in SC2)
Not particularly hard to see why kespa chose to add LoL though. It's a massive game in Korea and has a large audience across the world.
Edit:: Feel free to join the the discussion of LoL, pokemon, costco and other assorted topics in the LoL GD thread here
I mean you do make some solid points, though I fail to comprehend why you use peak concurrent for viewership indication, but a lot of people seem to enjoy doing that, so w/e. What really grinds my gears is your second paragraph. Did you never touch any other moba? People don't (or shouldn't) bitch about lol being easier than star 2, ofc it is moba is just removing makro and a large amount of multitasking from rts, the issue is that lol is literally the easiest, most dumbed down, game of it's genre. They removed being able to deny creeps, there is no courrier (unless they added it by now) and that list goes on forever, but I think someone who actually plays a lot of moba should tell you, I don't see why I'd touch a castrated rts when I can just play a real one. But seriously LoL is by far one of the most dumbed down games of the 21st century, basically the cod of moba.
Do you think LoL has consistently more fans/viewers and players because it is easier than Dota2 and SC2 or... could it be that it's just more fun?
I used to play BW, I used to play SC2, I used to play Dota2 (used to play the original Dota WC3 custom map consistently as well) and guess what?
Still playing LoL. It took me a while to start though, because so many peope (particularly on TL) were spewing shit about how it was nothing but a cheap knockoff. Now I won't even try to argue that LoL isn't as easy as you might think, nobody wants to hear that, but I will say that a harder game is not automatically a better game.
edit: By the way, it irks me that SC2/Dota2 people speak of LoL as if they had any kind of high ground when it comes to the difficulty in their game. Did any of you even play BW? SC2 is like finger painting compared to that. Though what is even more baffling is that you would think you are somehow better, somehow cooler, somehow more of a "real gamer" than anyone else based on which game you play. Nobody is impressed, what the fuck are you doing?
Yeah I do and I still play brood war on atleast a weekly base, daily if I had the time. I'm not saying you are shit if you play LoL I'm saying it's the easiest possible moba, and yeah I do think thats why it has the largest popularity. I mean lets look back at fps pc games when they were still popular. Quake is way way harder than cs, but cs eventually took over. Hell even console fps started esports wise at halo 1 which is basically quake ported on a console (in terms of multiplayer) and it was dumbed down all the way to cod bo2 nowadays. The easiest game will always be the most popular one as people don't enjoy challenges that are really hard, they enjoy achievements, they enjoy feeling like they are "good" they enjoy doing shit with their friends (thus team games will always be more popular than 1 v 1) and they love unlocking shit. While in bw, and even to a certain extend in star 2, you have to put hours and hour into it to be actually able to play properly, anyone can just play a bunch of games of lol and feel like they accomplished something. It's an issue of society and people prefer to view the easy path as more fun. Again I couldn't care less how others view me or w/e, and if I'd had made star 2 it wouldn't have automine, autorally, ulbs and all that shit, but I actually enjoy sucking at games and putting hours and hours of time (that I don't even have nowadays) into them to become decent and star 2 has a decent popularity while bw is dead so thats where I spent my time. I just find it sad that two of the most popular games in esports these days are also the most dumbed down ones of their genre (lol and cod), and thats just my personal opinion as I prefer to be "holy fuck I can't even comprehend how he did that" over "meh my 12 years old cousin could do that too" when watching esports.
"While in bw, and even to a certain extend in star 2, you have to put hours and hour into it to be actually able to play properly, anyone can just play a bunch of games of lol and feel like they accomplished something."
Because playing a bunch of games of League of Legends and putting hours and hours into Starcraft 2 are somehow different. Please inform me of how playing a "bunch" of LoL games isn't putting hour and hours into it.
Your ignorance amuses me. Please continue.
What? Do you fail to comprehend what I'm saying? Sorry but I don't talk to people who call me ignorant while they fail to even show basic reading comprehension.
let's put it this way:
let's assume that checkers/draughts is more popular than chess worldwide. we all know checkers is the easier game, fast to pick up and quick to play. however, those passionate about strategy games (through whatever medium eg. board, PC) know that checkers is nothing compared to chess. in terms of challenge, depth, possibilities...nothing.
Ya..... This needs to stop. The comparisons you use are the same god awful ones used since BW/SC2. "Skill ceiling" and "easier to play" have ZERO impact on how the game is played at a competitive level. I won't even go into all the reasons as to why trying to compare LoL to SC2 or BW is hilariously unproductive. It should really be self-evident after the 10 other threads from the past with LoL/SC2 skill comparisons that the argument leads NOWHERE.
Is SC2 a game where an individual won every single tournament he entered forever, how about BW? No, never ever has a game reached a "skill ceiling", the term is absolutely non-existent in anything.The term itself is only hypothetical pseudo-intellectual masturbation to make the fans of a "superior" game feel great about how objectively better their game is.
LoL has a lower individual skill ceiling than bw/sc2/dota but that doesnt make the game easy per say. The room for fuck ups and comebacks are much smaller, the harder the game the easier it is for comebacks since misstakes are more common. And one other thing LoL has managed better than other games is bring in females, theyve managed to make it appeling for this untapped market. Anyway if Kespa doesnt decide to scrap Sc2 completly some money will trickle down, it allways does.
On July 06 2013 02:39 deichkind wrote: LoL has a lower individual skill ceiling than bw/sc2/dota but that doesnt make the game easy per say. The room for fuck ups and comebacks are much smaller, the harder the game the easier it is for comebacks since misstakes are more common. And one other thing LoL has managed better than other games is bring in females, theyve managed to make it appeling for this untapped market. Anyway if Kespa doesnt decide to scrap Sc2 completly some money will trickle down, it allways does.
This is a great example of what I was just talking about right above you. Let me critique your post for you.
First sentence: You mention "skill ceiling" as a justification for the following sentence, best part is you actually add the qualifier of "individual" which renders the entire justification obsolete since LoL is not an individual game.
Second sentence: The "skill ceiling"(doesn't exist and is entirely irrelevant if it did) being lower somehow proves that mistakes and comebacks are less common. This is a non-sequitur argument as mistakes and comebacks are not reliant on the non-existent skill ceiling of the game, but on the relative skill of the players of the game.
Don't care about the other sentences as they are unrelated to "skill ceiling". Please kill this term.
On July 06 2013 02:39 deichkind wrote: LoL has a lower individual skill ceiling than bw/sc2/dota but that doesnt make the game easy per say. The room for fuck ups and comebacks are much smaller, the harder the game the easier it is for comebacks since misstakes are more common. And one other thing LoL has managed better than other games is bring in females, theyve managed to make it appeling for this untapped market. Anyway if Kespa doesnt decide to scrap Sc2 completly some money will trickle down, it allways does.
This is a great example of what I was just talking about right above you. Let me critique your post for you.
First sentence: You mention "skill ceiling" as a justification for the following sentence, best part is you actually add the qualifier of "individual" which renders the entire justification obsolete since LoL is not an individual game.
Second sentence: The "skill ceiling"(doesn't exist and is entirely irrelevant if it did) being lower somehow proves that mistakes and comebacks are less common. This is a non-sequitur argument as mistakes and comebacks are not reliant on the non-existent skill ceiling of the game, but on the relative skill of the players of the game.
Don't care about the other sentences as they are unrelated to "skill ceiling". Please kill this term.
I agree with you Yes, skill ceiling is a vague concept that people put out to make other people feel bad or something. We all know that SC2 is easier than BW, and BW is easier than WC1 or Dune, but why does it matter? If BW skill ceiling is infinity, then SC2 is infinity-1, does it matter that much since noone will gonna reach it anyway?
This clip sums up a lot of good point
Also I think alot of people mistake between "skill floor" and "skill ceiling". If your house is built with floor 3 feet higher than my house, and your ceiling ends up 3 feet higher than my ceiling, is it really that your house is bigger than mine? Just because a house has higher floor than another doesn't mean the ceiling will be higher, for all you know, your floor is 3ft higher than mine, but your whole house is only 1ft higher than mine, I doubt we can be proud of that.
"Low skill floor" will encourage more people to play the game, while "High floor" will make it harder for people to get into the house. Yes, it require you to have something special (taller than normal), or work harder than normal to get in the high floor house, but essentially it's just a handicap by design to filter people out, and give nothing to indicate that the ceiling will be higher.
On July 05 2013 23:57 ptrpb wrote: fuck all this league, dota, starcraft bitching when's kespa going to pick up fighting games? THE MOST SUPERIOR ESPORT
hmm yeah since MBCGame has been gone I don't think fighting games have been on korean TV.
On July 04 2013 14:14 Empirimancer wrote: Sometimes I try to imagine how popular SC2 would be in Korea if it had been as accessible as Brood War in internet cafes and if bnet 2.0 had been well designed.
Then I get depressed and I think about something else.
Sometimes I try to imagine if Blizz dev team didn't make Starcraft 2 so noob friendly to keep the competitive level harsh just like BW. Surely a high percentage of Pro Koreans would've have switched to Starcraft 2 keeping the player base and viewer base the same to the new game.
Which is hilarious because then you see how noob friendly LoL is, and how popular it got.
On July 04 2013 14:14 Empirimancer wrote: Sometimes I try to imagine how popular SC2 would be in Korea if it had been as accessible as Brood War in internet cafes and if bnet 2.0 had been well designed.
Then I get depressed and I think about something else.
Sometimes I try to imagine if Blizz dev team didn't make Starcraft 2 so noob friendly to keep the competitive level harsh just like BW. Surely a high percentage of Pro Koreans would've have switched to Starcraft 2 keeping the player base and viewer base the same to the new game.
Which is hilarious because then you see how noob friendly LoL is, and how popular it got.
Sometimes I try to imagine if Blizzard had predicted the future and figured out that a games like League would be so popular. Then I remember that no one thought that league would become as popular as it is, including the people who made league.
Oh, if only SC2 was made so we only needed to control one unit and used at max 10 keys. Then it would be huge.
On July 04 2013 14:14 Empirimancer wrote: Sometimes I try to imagine how popular SC2 would be in Korea if it had been as accessible as Brood War in internet cafes and if bnet 2.0 had been well designed.
Then I get depressed and I think about something else.
Sometimes I try to imagine if Blizz dev team didn't make Starcraft 2 so noob friendly to keep the competitive level harsh just like BW. Surely a high percentage of Pro Koreans would've have switched to Starcraft 2 keeping the player base and viewer base the same to the new game.
Which is hilarious because then you see how noob friendly LoL is, and how popular it got.
Sometimes I try to imagine if Blizzard had predicted the future and figured out that a games like League would be so popular. Then I remember that no one thought that league would become as popular as it is, including the people who made league.
Oh, if only SC2 was made so we only needed to control one unit and used at max 10 keys. Then it would be huge.
MARIIINNEEESS
Jk, I play terran and mass rine sucks.
edit: misread "control 1 unit" for "control 1 type of unit"
I can imagine that a couple of years in the future and KeSPA will completely move on to LoL and give SC2 the cold shoulder.
I'm not a fan of LoL so this is pretty depressing news to me that SC2 is getting overshadowed by another game. Even though by all means LoL deserved this much success.
LoL is to moba is like what COD is to FPS. The main difference is Activision did not do enough to promote its esport section like what riot did with LoL, which is why it was never caught in a wild fire (f2p helped tremendously too).
Also its no wonder kespa is moving away from SC2. Look at the OSL tourneys, people would rather watch it through GOM than from their website.
On July 06 2013 06:59 iky43210 wrote: LoL is to moba is like what COD is to FPS. The main difference is Activision did not do enough to promote its esport section like what riot did with LoL, which is why it was never caught in a wild fire (f2p helped tremendously too).
Also its no wonder kespa is moving away from SC2. Look at the OSL tourneys, people would rather watch it through GOM than from their website.
See I'm no expert on MOBA games, but I can definitely assure you the difference between CoD and old school shooters is far, far greater than what you're implying it to be, both in terms of skill ceiling and skill displayed at the top level. Hell, it's kinda like the difference between the NBA and some kids shooting hoops in their backyard. Other than that I pretty much agree.
Still, I'm curious why this was posted in the SC2 General forum, since the article (or at least the bit in the OP) doesn't mention anything about SC2? :/
On July 04 2013 14:11 SidianTheBard wrote: At least they are smart and picking up LoL over Dota2. LoL is already getting huge in Korea so I see it being still a huge success. sc2 & LoL...I love it.
GOM is picking up dota2, so no need to compete with them on that
On July 06 2013 06:59 iky43210 wrote: LoL is to moba is like what COD is to FPS. The main difference is Activision did not do enough to promote its esport section like what riot did with LoL, which is why it was never caught in a wild fire (f2p helped tremendously too).
Also its no wonder kespa is moving away from SC2. Look at the OSL tourneys, people would rather watch it through GOM than from their website.
See I'm no expert on MOBA games, but I can definitely assure you the difference between CoD and old school shooters is far, far greater than what you're implying it to be, both in terms of skill ceiling and skill displayed at the top level. Hell, it's kinda like the difference between the NBA and some kids shooting hoops in their backyard. Other than that I pretty much agree.
Still, I'm curious why this was posted in the SC2 General forum, since the article (or at least the bit in the OP) doesn't mention anything about SC2? :/
Playing dota is not anywhere near the same as playing LoL. Dota is often unnecessary complicated, with different and huge variation of attack speed between heros making last hit a bitch (add in last hitting and you're looking at world of fun). LoL are much more normalized with such regards. Animation are also quite "chunky" in dota that allows for fake cast or predictions, whereas LoL are smooth.
Towers are not baby sitters, allowing greater risk play in dota 2. Being able to deny people's gold by killing them is also a good mechanics that allows come backs. The come back in top LoL matches are usually illusions where one team comp becomes much more superior than the other. I'm not saying come back doesn't happen in LoL, but too many people attributes good play over simply reaching that stage of the game where your comp shines and there's little your opponents can do about it except hope you make mistakes. This is something dota 2 item department excels at, allowing you a fighting chance against specific team setup when such problem arise.
The available items in dota also makes LoL look like child play. The complexity of potential builds, synergy, and specific hero-item counter is staggering. LoL is quite normalize in that regards where all ADC builds the same, most tanky bruiser build the same, etc.
Heros in LoL are also quite homogenized. Honestly the newer batch of heros are just mash of abilities from available champions in LoL. Lissady felt alot like zed + icebear/morg, and zac is malphite + amumu. There is some uniqueness to them, but mechanically wise they don't feel too much different.
Then you look at Dota... Invokers? meepo? rubick? lanaya, carine, they all play drastically different from each other mechanically and build wise. Any of those champ put skill ceiling (and often times floor) much higher than any champion in LoL can currently accomplished.
Then there is the meta. Bot lane support never goes away in LoL, and beside early phases in LoL the meta have been slightly stagnant for many months. Jungle is not a pure viable lane and thus you end up with support/tank jungler all the time. Those kind of decisions really limits the role of each lane. Plus riot nerfs everything that is out of the ordinary, aka doesn't fit the meta, and people wonder why the game stagnant.
On July 06 2013 06:59 iky43210 wrote: LoL is to moba is like what COD is to FPS. The main difference is Activision did not do enough to promote its esport section like what riot did with LoL, which is why it was never caught in a wild fire (f2p helped tremendously too).
Also its no wonder kespa is moving away from SC2. Look at the OSL tourneys, people would rather watch it through GOM than from their website.
See I'm no expert on MOBA games, but I can definitely assure you the difference between CoD and old school shooters is far, far greater than what you're implying it to be, both in terms of skill ceiling and skill displayed at the top level. Hell, it's kinda like the difference between the NBA and some kids shooting hoops in their backyard. Other than that I pretty much agree.
Still, I'm curious why this was posted in the SC2 General forum, since the article (or at least the bit in the OP) doesn't mention anything about SC2? :/
Playing dota is not anywhere near the same as playing LoL. Dota is often unnecessary complicated, with different and huge variation of attack speed between heros making last hit a bitch (add in last hitting and you're looking at world of fun). LoL are much more normalized with such regards. Animation are also quite "chunky" in dota that allows for fake cast or predictions, whereas LoL are smooth.
Towers are not baby sitters, allowing greater risk play in dota 2. Being able to deny people's gold by killing them is also a good mechanics that allows come backs. The come back in top LoL matches are usually illusions where one team comp becomes much more superior than the other. I'm not saying come back doesn't happen in LoL, but too many people attributes good play over simply reaching that stage of the game where your comp shines and there's little your opponents can do about it except hope you make mistakes. This is something dota 2 item department excels at, allowing you a fighting chance against specific team setup when such problem arise.
The available items in dota also makes LoL look like child play. The complexity of potential builds, synergy, and specific hero-item counter is staggering. LoL is quite normalize in that regards where all ADC builds the same, most tanky bruiser build the same, etc.
Heros in LoL are also quite homogenized. Honestly the newer batch of heros are just mash of abilities from available champions in LoL. Lissady felt alot like zed + icebear/morg, and zac is malphite + amumu. There is some uniqueness to them, but mechanically wise they don't feel too much different.
Then you look at Dota... Invokers? meepo? rubick? lanaya, carine, they all play drastically different from each other mechanically and build wise. Any of those champ put skill ceiling (and often times floor) much higher than any champion in LoL can currently accomplished.
Then there is the meta. Bot lane support never goes away in LoL, and beside early phases in LoL the meta have been slightly stagnant for many months. Jungle is not a pure viable lane and thus you end up with support/tank jungler all the time. Those kind of decisions really limits the role of each lane. Plus riot nerfs everything that is out of the ordinary, aka doesn't fit the meta, and people wonder why the game stagnant.
Excellent post. Everything is true in this post, the biggest problems IMO with LoL is the nerfing Riot is doing with every champion and the lack of original champions lately is just mindnumbing. I remember when champs used to be like Ashe, sure they were really simple character design but she was just a frost archer with skills that actually made sense on a frost archer. Nowadays every new champion needs like 1 gap closer if Melee, 1 high damage ability, 1 escape, some random AoE damage or AoE CC as an ulti. Same formula on every champ otherwise they wont work in the meta.
So instead of simple characters like Ashe, you end up with another archer but this one can travel in time as an escape without it making any sense at all
On July 06 2013 08:10 iky43210 wrote: Then there is the meta. Bot lane support never goes away in LoL, and beside early phases in LoL the meta have been slightly stagnant for many months. Jungle is not a pure viable lane and thus you end up with support/tank jungler all the time. Those kind of decisions really limits the role of each lane. Plus riot nerfs everything that is out of the ordinary, aka doesn't fit the meta, and people wonder why the game stagnant.
You make a few good points. I'd say there is progression with the supports though especially in Korea. As for the simpler layout/graphics/items/etc. I actually find that more appealing personally because I find the game much easier to follow compared to Dota.
i think this is exactly the right step for proleague. seeing the studio totally empty hurts me so much.
however, lol is number one right now and people have to accept that. sc2 scene should use it to it's advantage (as it is hopefully doing with this proleague reform).
I personally find LoL to be a well-designed, fun game to play. I first started playing in late 2010 and was hooked ever since.
Trying to play dota, whether dota1 in high school or dota2 recently, was a frustrating experience. There was too much unnecessary complexity and rote memorization involved for me.
On July 06 2013 06:59 iky43210 wrote: LoL is to moba is like what COD is to FPS. The main difference is Activision did not do enough to promote its esport section like what riot did with LoL, which is why it was never caught in a wild fire (f2p helped tremendously too).
Also its no wonder kespa is moving away from SC2. Look at the OSL tourneys, people would rather watch it through GOM than from their website.
See I'm no expert on MOBA games, but I can definitely assure you the difference between CoD and old school shooters is far, far greater than what you're implying it to be, both in terms of skill ceiling and skill displayed at the top level. Hell, it's kinda like the difference between the NBA and some kids shooting hoops in their backyard. Other than that I pretty much agree.
Still, I'm curious why this was posted in the SC2 General forum, since the article (or at least the bit in the OP) doesn't mention anything about SC2? :/
Playing dota is not anywhere near the same as playing LoL. Dota is often unnecessary complicated, with different and huge variation of attack speed between heros making last hit a bitch (add in last hitting and you're looking at world of fun). LoL are much more normalized with such regards. Animation are also quite "chunky" in dota that allows for fake cast or predictions, whereas LoL are smooth.
Towers are not baby sitters, allowing greater risk play in dota 2. Being able to deny people's gold by killing them is also a good mechanics that allows come backs. The come back in top LoL matches are usually illusions where one team comp becomes much more superior than the other. I'm not saying come back doesn't happen in LoL, but too many people attributes good play over simply reaching that stage of the game where your comp shines and there's little your opponents can do about it except hope you make mistakes. This is something dota 2 item department excels at, allowing you a fighting chance against specific team setup when such problem arise.
The available items in dota also makes LoL look like child play. The complexity of potential builds, synergy, and specific hero-item counter is staggering. LoL is quite normalize in that regards where all ADC builds the same, most tanky bruiser build the same, etc.
Heros in LoL are also quite homogenized. Honestly the newer batch of heros are just mash of abilities from available champions in LoL. Lissady felt alot like zed + icebear/morg, and zac is malphite + amumu. There is some uniqueness to them, but mechanically wise they don't feel too much different.
Then you look at Dota... Invokers? meepo? rubick? lanaya, carine, they all play drastically different from each other mechanically and build wise. Any of those champ put skill ceiling (and often times floor) much higher than any champion in LoL can currently accomplished.
Then there is the meta. Bot lane support never goes away in LoL, and beside early phases in LoL the meta have been slightly stagnant for many months. Jungle is not a pure viable lane and thus you end up with support/tank jungler all the time. Those kind of decisions really limits the role of each lane. Plus riot nerfs everything that is out of the ordinary, aka doesn't fit the meta, and people wonder why the game stagnant.
Excellent post. Everything is true in this post, the biggest problems IMO with LoL is the nerfing Riot is doing with every champion and the lack of original champions lately is just mindnumbing. I remember when champs used to be like Ashe, sure they were really simple character design but she was just a frost archer with skills that actually made sense on a frost archer. Nowadays every new champion needs like 1 gap closer if Melee, 1 high damage ability, 1 escape, some random AoE damage or AoE CC as an ulti. Same formula on every champ otherwise they wont work in the meta.
So instead of simple characters like Ashe, you end up with another archer but this one can travel in time as an escape without it making any sense at all
I agree with all of the points... Dota is sometimes so unnecessarily complex... But knowing Koreans and how they liked BW over SC2 and as an ardent fan of Dota, I'm hoping the current starter league from (i know ) Nexon really showcases all the small intricacies that I've grown to love and appreciate. Only time will tell, but till then, I'm having my fingers crossed that Dota grows big in Korea~ Also, I know so many people will give me flak for this, but I like the Dota visuals better than LoL. Just the flowery/cartoony feel of LoL turns me off where as the darker WC3 feel that Dota still maintains keeps me in the tense, pressured adrenaline rush for most of the game.
On July 06 2013 06:59 iky43210 wrote: LoL is to moba is like what COD is to FPS. The main difference is Activision did not do enough to promote its esport section like what riot did with LoL, which is why it was never caught in a wild fire (f2p helped tremendously too).
Also its no wonder kespa is moving away from SC2. Look at the OSL tourneys, people would rather watch it through GOM than from their website.
See I'm no expert on MOBA games, but I can definitely assure you the difference between CoD and old school shooters is far, far greater than what you're implying it to be, both in terms of skill ceiling and skill displayed at the top level. Hell, it's kinda like the difference between the NBA and some kids shooting hoops in their backyard. Other than that I pretty much agree.
Still, I'm curious why this was posted in the SC2 General forum, since the article (or at least the bit in the OP) doesn't mention anything about SC2? :/
Playing dota is not anywhere near the same as playing LoL. Dota is often unnecessary complicated, with different and huge variation of attack speed between heros making last hit a bitch (add in last hitting and you're looking at world of fun). LoL are much more normalized with such regards. Animation are also quite "chunky" in dota that allows for fake cast or predictions, whereas LoL are smooth.
Towers are not baby sitters, allowing greater risk play in dota 2. Being able to deny people's gold by killing them is also a good mechanics that allows come backs. The come back in top LoL matches are usually illusions where one team comp becomes much more superior than the other. I'm not saying come back doesn't happen in LoL, but too many people attributes good play over simply reaching that stage of the game where your comp shines and there's little your opponents can do about it except hope you make mistakes. This is something dota 2 item department excels at, allowing you a fighting chance against specific team setup when such problem arise.
The available items in dota also makes LoL look like child play. The complexity of potential builds, synergy, and specific hero-item counter is staggering. LoL is quite normalize in that regards where all ADC builds the same, most tanky bruiser build the same, etc.
Heros in LoL are also quite homogenized. Honestly the newer batch of heros are just mash of abilities from available champions in LoL. Lissady felt alot like zed + icebear/morg, and zac is malphite + amumu. There is some uniqueness to them, but mechanically wise they don't feel too much different.
Then you look at Dota... Invokers? meepo? rubick? lanaya, carine, they all play drastically different from each other mechanically and build wise. Any of those champ put skill ceiling (and often times floor) much higher than any champion in LoL can currently accomplished.
Then there is the meta. Bot lane support never goes away in LoL, and beside early phases in LoL the meta have been slightly stagnant for many months. Jungle is not a pure viable lane and thus you end up with support/tank jungler all the time. Those kind of decisions really limits the role of each lane. Plus riot nerfs everything that is out of the ordinary, aka doesn't fit the meta, and people wonder why the game stagnant.
Excellent post. Everything is true in this post, the biggest problems IMO with LoL is the nerfing Riot is doing with every champion and the lack of original champions lately is just mindnumbing. I remember when champs used to be like Ashe, sure they were really simple character design but she was just a frost archer with skills that actually made sense on a frost archer. Nowadays every new champion needs like 1 gap closer if Melee, 1 high damage ability, 1 escape, some random AoE damage or AoE CC as an ulti. Same formula on every champ otherwise they wont work in the meta.
So instead of simple characters like Ashe, you end up with another archer but this one can travel in time as an escape without it making any sense at all
I agree with all of the points... Dota is sometimes so unnecessarily complex... But knowing Koreans and how they liked BW over SC2 and as an ardent fan of Dota, I'm hoping the current starter league from (i know ) Nexon really showcases all the small intricacies that I've grown to love and appreciate. Only time will tell, but till then, I'm having my fingers crossed that Dota grows big in Korea~ Also, I know so many people will give me flak for this, but I like the Dota visuals better than LoL. Just the flowery/cartoony feel of LoL turns me off where as the darker WC3 feel that Dota still maintains keeps me in the tense, pressured adrenaline rush for most of the game.
It's funny because you remember how everyone was saying oh shit why does D3 have to be so cartoony, it's lost it's gritty dark colors, roar! Well, in this instance, I actually think it helps from a spectator stand-point to have distinct colors so everything stands out. When I first started watching Dota2 I found it incredibly hard on the eyes, especially on the Dire side and even on the Radiant side the colors just feel really subdued/diluted. You know what I mean? I think it's actually easier to follow the Brood War action compared to SC2 as well.
Time will tell how the Nexon League does, but I wouldn't cross my fingers. Nexon has let me down so many times that I've lost track.
On July 06 2013 06:59 iky43210 wrote: Also its no wonder kespa is moving away from SC2. Look at the OSL tourneys, people would rather watch it through GOM than from their website.
But does what stream foreigners are watching OSL on have that big of a say in the Korean market? It's just a matter of picking what casters you like the most and watching that stream. Wouldn't their concern be more about how many people are coming to watch SC2 matches live vs how many are coming to watch the LoL matches live?
The Korean audience should have a bigger influence on OGN/KeSPA than SC2 and LoL's foreign audiences and what streams they prefer to view.
On July 06 2013 06:59 iky43210 wrote: LoL is to moba is like what COD is to FPS. The main difference is Activision did not do enough to promote its esport section like what riot did with LoL, which is why it was never caught in a wild fire (f2p helped tremendously too).
Also its no wonder kespa is moving away from SC2. Look at the OSL tourneys, people would rather watch it through GOM than from their website.
See I'm no expert on MOBA games, but I can definitely assure you the difference between CoD and old school shooters is far, far greater than what you're implying it to be, both in terms of skill ceiling and skill displayed at the top level. Hell, it's kinda like the difference between the NBA and some kids shooting hoops in their backyard. Other than that I pretty much agree.
Still, I'm curious why this was posted in the SC2 General forum, since the article (or at least the bit in the OP) doesn't mention anything about SC2? :/
Playing dota is not anywhere near the same as playing LoL. Dota is often unnecessary complicated, with different and huge variation of attack speed between heros making last hit a bitch (add in last hitting and you're looking at world of fun). LoL are much more normalized with such regards. Animation are also quite "chunky" in dota that allows for fake cast or predictions, whereas LoL are smooth.
Towers are not baby sitters, allowing greater risk play in dota 2. Being able to deny people's gold by killing them is also a good mechanics that allows come backs. The come back in top LoL matches are usually illusions where one team comp becomes much more superior than the other. I'm not saying come back doesn't happen in LoL, but too many people attributes good play over simply reaching that stage of the game where your comp shines and there's little your opponents can do about it except hope you make mistakes. This is something dota 2 item department excels at, allowing you a fighting chance against specific team setup when such problem arise.
The available items in dota also makes LoL look like child play. The complexity of potential builds, synergy, and specific hero-item counter is staggering. LoL is quite normalize in that regards where all ADC builds the same, most tanky bruiser build the same, etc.
Heros in LoL are also quite homogenized. Honestly the newer batch of heros are just mash of abilities from available champions in LoL. Lissady felt alot like zed + icebear/morg, and zac is malphite + amumu. There is some uniqueness to them, but mechanically wise they don't feel too much different.
Then you look at Dota... Invokers? meepo? rubick? lanaya, carine, they all play drastically different from each other mechanically and build wise. Any of those champ put skill ceiling (and often times floor) much higher than any champion in LoL can currently accomplished.
Then there is the meta. Bot lane support never goes away in LoL, and beside early phases in LoL the meta have been slightly stagnant for many months. Jungle is not a pure viable lane and thus you end up with support/tank jungler all the time. Those kind of decisions really limits the role of each lane. Plus riot nerfs everything that is out of the ordinary, aka doesn't fit the meta, and people wonder why the game stagnant.
Excellent post. Everything is true in this post, the biggest problems IMO with LoL is the nerfing Riot is doing with every champion and the lack of original champions lately is just mindnumbing. I remember when champs used to be like Ashe, sure they were really simple character design but she was just a frost archer with skills that actually made sense on a frost archer. Nowadays every new champion needs like 1 gap closer if Melee, 1 high damage ability, 1 escape, some random AoE damage or AoE CC as an ulti. Same formula on every champ otherwise they wont work in the meta.
So instead of simple characters like Ashe, you end up with another archer but this one can travel in time as an escape without it making any sense at all
I agree with all of the points... Dota is sometimes so unnecessarily complex... But knowing Koreans and how they liked BW over SC2 and as an ardent fan of Dota, I'm hoping the current starter league from (i know ) Nexon really showcases all the small intricacies that I've grown to love and appreciate. Only time will tell, but till then, I'm having my fingers crossed that Dota grows big in Korea~ Also, I know so many people will give me flak for this, but I like the Dota visuals better than LoL. Just the flowery/cartoony feel of LoL turns me off where as the darker WC3 feel that Dota still maintains keeps me in the tense, pressured adrenaline rush for most of the game.
It's funny because you remember how everyone was saying oh shit why does D3 have to be so cartoony, it's lost it's gritty dark colors, roar! Well, in this instance, I actually think it helps from a spectator stand-point to have distinct colors so everything stands out. When I first started watching Dota2 I found it incredibly hard on the eyes, especially on the Dire side and even on the Radiant side the colors just feel really subdued/diluted. You know what I mean? I think it's actually easier to follow the Brood War action compared to SC2 as well.
On July 06 2013 06:59 iky43210 wrote: LoL is to moba is like what COD is to FPS. The main difference is Activision did not do enough to promote its esport section like what riot did with LoL, which is why it was never caught in a wild fire (f2p helped tremendously too).
Also its no wonder kespa is moving away from SC2. Look at the OSL tourneys, people would rather watch it through GOM than from their website.
See I'm no expert on MOBA games, but I can definitely assure you the difference between CoD and old school shooters is far, far greater than what you're implying it to be, both in terms of skill ceiling and skill displayed at the top level. Hell, it's kinda like the difference between the NBA and some kids shooting hoops in their backyard. Other than that I pretty much agree.
Still, I'm curious why this was posted in the SC2 General forum, since the article (or at least the bit in the OP) doesn't mention anything about SC2? :/
Playing dota is not anywhere near the same as playing LoL. Dota is often unnecessary complicated, with different and huge variation of attack speed between heros making last hit a bitch (add in last hitting and you're looking at world of fun). LoL are much more normalized with such regards. Animation are also quite "chunky" in dota that allows for fake cast or predictions, whereas LoL are smooth.
Towers are not baby sitters, allowing greater risk play in dota 2. Being able to deny people's gold by killing them is also a good mechanics that allows come backs. The come back in top LoL matches are usually illusions where one team comp becomes much more superior than the other. I'm not saying come back doesn't happen in LoL, but too many people attributes good play over simply reaching that stage of the game where your comp shines and there's little your opponents can do about it except hope you make mistakes. This is something dota 2 item department excels at, allowing you a fighting chance against specific team setup when such problem arise.
The available items in dota also makes LoL look like child play. The complexity of potential builds, synergy, and specific hero-item counter is staggering. LoL is quite normalize in that regards where all ADC builds the same, most tanky bruiser build the same, etc.
Heros in LoL are also quite homogenized. Honestly the newer batch of heros are just mash of abilities from available champions in LoL. Lissady felt alot like zed + icebear/morg, and zac is malphite + amumu. There is some uniqueness to them, but mechanically wise they don't feel too much different.
Then you look at Dota... Invokers? meepo? rubick? lanaya, carine, they all play drastically different from each other mechanically and build wise. Any of those champ put skill ceiling (and often times floor) much higher than any champion in LoL can currently accomplished.
Then there is the meta. Bot lane support never goes away in LoL, and beside early phases in LoL the meta have been slightly stagnant for many months. Jungle is not a pure viable lane and thus you end up with support/tank jungler all the time. Those kind of decisions really limits the role of each lane. Plus riot nerfs everything that is out of the ordinary, aka doesn't fit the meta, and people wonder why the game stagnant.
I can't comment on Dota since I don't have enough knowledge on that particular game, but I can say that your portrayal of LoL is quite inaccurate. Here are the statements I have issue with in order of your comments on them.
1. "Towers are not baby sitters, allowing greater risk play in dota 2."
This argument is verrrrry old, and is not an accurate representation of the current competitive LoL scene at all. For example yesterdays LCS matches had lvl 1 buff control fights in around half the matches. This is risk play, it is a different kind of risk play than what is in Dota however that does not disqualify it from being risk play. The tower in LoL are stronger, but that is not where the risky early fights are to occur in the majority of circumstances. Neutral buffs in league create more than enough risk play than what is offset by stronger towers.
2. " Being able to deny people's gold by killing them is also a good mechanics that allows come backs."
This is often said, but the logic of it escapes me. The team most likely to be getting kills is the team that has a lead. Thus this mechanic will punish the losing team far greater than the winning team, creating a "snowball" effect far greater than if it was simply a gold gain on kill with no gold loss on death.
3. "Heros in LoL are also quite homogenized."
LoL has 114 champions, homogenous kits has never been an issue with players. The pro scene in particular has never had any complaint about homogenized champions.
4. "Any of those champ put skill ceiling (and often times floor) much higher than any champion in LoL can currently accomplished."
Have any players of LoL or Dota hit a level of skill where they 100% of the time play mechanically perfectly? I can't think of such a case, so I don't know why skill ceiling is mentioned.
5."Then there is the meta. Bot lane support never goes away in LoL, and beside early phases in LoL the meta have been slightly stagnant for many months. Jungle is not a pure viable lane and thus you end up with support/tank jungler all the time. Those kind of decisions really limits the role of each lane."
This is where I understood you don't follow the LoL competitive scene at all. It is a regular thing for lane swaps to occur in any competitive match. Don't forget how AD casters were also made relevant again. Next you talk about how jungle is not a viable lane, well ya it is not a lane. Jungle is not some concept you can compare to Dota and have 1:1 match. I assume carries in Dota typically don't build tank items; it's the same in league, jungle is more akin to a support than a carry.
The decisions for itemization may very well be more limited than Dota, but it is ludicrous to try and compare them when they work on fundamentally different systems. Dota ex. strength, agility, intelligence. LoL ex. ability power, magic penetration, attack damage, and armor penetration. The stats for items are NOT comparable and both games items fulfill the needs of the game.
6. "Plus riot nerfs everything that is out of the ordinary, aka doesn't fit the meta, and people wonder why the game stagnant."
Riot does not believe in power creep. You can tell me how successful their balancing is seeing how the LoL competitive scene has now eclipsed the Dota competitive scene. No one except outside individuals such as yourself believe the game to be stagnant. I just looked across Reddit and the LoL forums and can't seem to find any complaint of stagnant game play and I have a really hard time remembering any as well. Edit: made format more pleasant to look at.
On July 06 2013 06:59 iky43210 wrote: LoL is to moba is like what COD is to FPS. The main difference is Activision did not do enough to promote its esport section like what riot did with LoL, which is why it was never caught in a wild fire (f2p helped tremendously too).
Also its no wonder kespa is moving away from SC2. Look at the OSL tourneys, people would rather watch it through GOM than from their website.
See I'm no expert on MOBA games, but I can definitely assure you the difference between CoD and old school shooters is far, far greater than what you're implying it to be, both in terms of skill ceiling and skill displayed at the top level. Hell, it's kinda like the difference between the NBA and some kids shooting hoops in their backyard. Other than that I pretty much agree.
Still, I'm curious why this was posted in the SC2 General forum, since the article (or at least the bit in the OP) doesn't mention anything about SC2? :/
Playing dota is not anywhere near the same as playing LoL. Dota is often unnecessary complicated, with different and huge variation of attack speed between heros making last hit a bitch (add in last hitting and you're looking at world of fun). LoL are much more normalized with such regards. Animation are also quite "chunky" in dota that allows for fake cast or predictions, whereas LoL are smooth.
Towers are not baby sitters, allowing greater risk play in dota 2. Being able to deny people's gold by killing them is also a good mechanics that allows come backs. The come back in top LoL matches are usually illusions where one team comp becomes much more superior than the other. I'm not saying come back doesn't happen in LoL, but too many people attributes good play over simply reaching that stage of the game where your comp shines and there's little your opponents can do about it except hope you make mistakes. This is something dota 2 item department excels at, allowing you a fighting chance against specific team setup when such problem arise.
The available items in dota also makes LoL look like child play. The complexity of potential builds, synergy, and specific hero-item counter is staggering. LoL is quite normalize in that regards where all ADC builds the same, most tanky bruiser build the same, etc.
Heros in LoL are also quite homogenized. Honestly the newer batch of heros are just mash of abilities from available champions in LoL. Lissady felt alot like zed + icebear/morg, and zac is malphite + amumu. There is some uniqueness to them, but mechanically wise they don't feel too much different.
Then you look at Dota... Invokers? meepo? rubick? lanaya, carine, they all play drastically different from each other mechanically and build wise. Any of those champ put skill ceiling (and often times floor) much higher than any champion in LoL can currently accomplished.
Then there is the meta. Bot lane support never goes away in LoL, and beside early phases in LoL the meta have been slightly stagnant for many months. Jungle is not a pure viable lane and thus you end up with support/tank jungler all the time. Those kind of decisions really limits the role of each lane. Plus riot nerfs everything that is out of the ordinary, aka doesn't fit the meta, and people wonder why the game stagnant.
Excellent post. Everything is true in this post, the biggest problems IMO with LoL is the nerfing Riot is doing with every champion and the lack of original champions lately is just mindnumbing. I remember when champs used to be like Ashe, sure they were really simple character design but she was just a frost archer with skills that actually made sense on a frost archer. Nowadays every new champion needs like 1 gap closer if Melee, 1 high damage ability, 1 escape, some random AoE damage or AoE CC as an ulti. Same formula on every champ otherwise they wont work in the meta.
So instead of simple characters like Ashe, you end up with another archer but this one can travel in time as an escape without it making any sense at all
I agree with all of the points... Dota is sometimes so unnecessarily complex... But knowing Koreans and how they liked BW over SC2 and as an ardent fan of Dota, I'm hoping the current starter league from (i know ) Nexon really showcases all the small intricacies that I've grown to love and appreciate. Only time will tell, but till then, I'm having my fingers crossed that Dota grows big in Korea~ Also, I know so many people will give me flak for this, but I like the Dota visuals better than LoL. Just the flowery/cartoony feel of LoL turns me off where as the darker WC3 feel that Dota still maintains keeps me in the tense, pressured adrenaline rush for most of the game.
It's funny because you remember how everyone was saying oh shit why does D3 have to be so cartoony, it's lost it's gritty dark colors, roar! Well, in this instance, I actually think it helps from a spectator stand-point to have distinct colors so everything stands out. When I first started watching Dota2 I found it incredibly hard on the eyes, especially on the Dire side and even on the Radiant side the colors just feel really subdued/diluted. You know what I mean? I think it's actually easier to follow the Brood War action compared to SC2 as well.
Time will tell how the Nexon League does, but I wouldn't cross my fingers. Nexon has let me down so many times that I've lost track.
Things in LoL are more distinguishable than Dota2.
Things in BW are more distinguishable than SC2.
LoL is more popular than Dota2 in Korea
BW is more popular than SC2 in Korea
We all know Asian aesthetics
But seriously, SC2's lighting is really very dark. And I have no idea why so many Americans and Europeans like this undistinguishable style.
On July 06 2013 06:59 iky43210 wrote: LoL is to moba is like what COD is to FPS. The main difference is Activision did not do enough to promote its esport section like what riot did with LoL, which is why it was never caught in a wild fire (f2p helped tremendously too).
Also its no wonder kespa is moving away from SC2. Look at the OSL tourneys, people would rather watch it through GOM than from their website.
This may be true for foreign audiences but the majority of Koreans prefer OGN casters over GOM casters.
Also, Kespa is not moving away from SC2 but rather adding LOL to its arsenal just like they did with SF2 or Kart Rider.
On July 06 2013 06:59 iky43210 wrote: LoL is to moba is like what COD is to FPS. The main difference is Activision did not do enough to promote its esport section like what riot did with LoL, which is why it was never caught in a wild fire (f2p helped tremendously too).
Also its no wonder kespa is moving away from SC2. Look at the OSL tourneys, people would rather watch it through GOM than from their website.
This may be true for foreign audiences but the majority of Koreans prefer OGN casters over GOM casters.
Also, Kespa is not moving away from SC2 but rather adding LOL to its arsenal just like they did with SF2 or Kart Rider.
A topic tangentially and speculatively related to sc2, posted in sc2 general, becomes a bizarro dota v lol v sc2 v bw discussion, and devolves into its elemental dota v lol form.
On July 06 2013 06:59 iky43210 wrote: LoL is to moba is like what COD is to FPS. The main difference is Activision did not do enough to promote its esport section like what riot did with LoL, which is why it was never caught in a wild fire (f2p helped tremendously too).
Also its no wonder kespa is moving away from SC2. Look at the OSL tourneys, people would rather watch it through GOM than from their website.
See I'm no expert on MOBA games, but I can definitely assure you the difference between CoD and old school shooters is far, far greater than what you're implying it to be, both in terms of skill ceiling and skill displayed at the top level. Hell, it's kinda like the difference between the NBA and some kids shooting hoops in their backyard. Other than that I pretty much agree.
Still, I'm curious why this was posted in the SC2 General forum, since the article (or at least the bit in the OP) doesn't mention anything about SC2? :/
Playing dota is not anywhere near the same as playing LoL. Dota is often unnecessary complicated, with different and huge variation of attack speed between heros making last hit a bitch (add in last hitting and you're looking at world of fun). LoL are much more normalized with such regards. Animation are also quite "chunky" in dota that allows for fake cast or predictions, whereas LoL are smooth.
Towers are not baby sitters, allowing greater risk play in dota 2. Being able to deny people's gold by killing them is also a good mechanics that allows come backs. The come back in top LoL matches are usually illusions where one team comp becomes much more superior than the other. I'm not saying come back doesn't happen in LoL, but too many people attributes good play over simply reaching that stage of the game where your comp shines and there's little your opponents can do about it except hope you make mistakes. This is something dota 2 item department excels at, allowing you a fighting chance against specific team setup when such problem arise.
The available items in dota also makes LoL look like child play. The complexity of potential builds, synergy, and specific hero-item counter is staggering. LoL is quite normalize in that regards where all ADC builds the same, most tanky bruiser build the same, etc.
Heros in LoL are also quite homogenized. Honestly the newer batch of heros are just mash of abilities from available champions in LoL. Lissady felt alot like zed + icebear/morg, and zac is malphite + amumu. There is some uniqueness to them, but mechanically wise they don't feel too much different.
Then you look at Dota... Invokers? meepo? rubick? lanaya, carine, they all play drastically different from each other mechanically and build wise. Any of those champ put skill ceiling (and often times floor) much higher than any champion in LoL can currently accomplished.
Then there is the meta. Bot lane support never goes away in LoL, and beside early phases in LoL the meta have been slightly stagnant for many months. Jungle is not a pure viable lane and thus you end up with support/tank jungler all the time. Those kind of decisions really limits the role of each lane. Plus riot nerfs everything that is out of the ordinary, aka doesn't fit the meta, and people wonder why the game stagnant.
I value your opinion but wtf has this to do in a sc2 forum? ^^
On July 06 2013 06:59 iky43210 wrote: LoL is to moba is like what COD is to FPS. The main difference is Activision did not do enough to promote its esport section like what riot did with LoL, which is why it was never caught in a wild fire (f2p helped tremendously too).
Also its no wonder kespa is moving away from SC2. Look at the OSL tourneys, people would rather watch it through GOM than from their website.
See I'm no expert on MOBA games, but I can definitely assure you the difference between CoD and old school shooters is far, far greater than what you're implying it to be, both in terms of skill ceiling and skill displayed at the top level. Hell, it's kinda like the difference between the NBA and some kids shooting hoops in their backyard. Other than that I pretty much agree.
Still, I'm curious why this was posted in the SC2 General forum, since the article (or at least the bit in the OP) doesn't mention anything about SC2? :/
Playing dota is not anywhere near the same as playing LoL. Dota is often unnecessary complicated, with different and huge variation of attack speed between heros making last hit a bitch (add in last hitting and you're looking at world of fun). LoL are much more normalized with such regards. Animation are also quite "chunky" in dota that allows for fake cast or predictions, whereas LoL are smooth.
Towers are not baby sitters, allowing greater risk play in dota 2. Being able to deny people's gold by killing them is also a good mechanics that allows come backs. The come back in top LoL matches are usually illusions where one team comp becomes much more superior than the other. I'm not saying come back doesn't happen in LoL, but too many people attributes good play over simply reaching that stage of the game where your comp shines and there's little your opponents can do about it except hope you make mistakes. This is something dota 2 item department excels at, allowing you a fighting chance against specific team setup when such problem arise.
The available items in dota also makes LoL look like child play. The complexity of potential builds, synergy, and specific hero-item counter is staggering. LoL is quite normalize in that regards where all ADC builds the same, most tanky bruiser build the same, etc.
Heros in LoL are also quite homogenized. Honestly the newer batch of heros are just mash of abilities from available champions in LoL. Lissady felt alot like zed + icebear/morg, and zac is malphite + amumu. There is some uniqueness to them, but mechanically wise they don't feel too much different.
Then you look at Dota... Invokers? meepo? rubick? lanaya, carine, they all play drastically different from each other mechanically and build wise. Any of those champ put skill ceiling (and often times floor) much higher than any champion in LoL can currently accomplished.
Then there is the meta. Bot lane support never goes away in LoL, and beside early phases in LoL the meta have been slightly stagnant for many months. Jungle is not a pure viable lane and thus you end up with support/tank jungler all the time. Those kind of decisions really limits the role of each lane. Plus riot nerfs everything that is out of the ordinary, aka doesn't fit the meta, and people wonder why the game stagnant.
Excellent post. Everything is true in this post, the biggest problems IMO with LoL is the nerfing Riot is doing with every champion and the lack of original champions lately is just mindnumbing. I remember when champs used to be like Ashe, sure they were really simple character design but she was just a frost archer with skills that actually made sense on a frost archer. Nowadays every new champion needs like 1 gap closer if Melee, 1 high damage ability, 1 escape, some random AoE damage or AoE CC as an ulti. Same formula on every champ otherwise they wont work in the meta.
So instead of simple characters like Ashe, you end up with another archer but this one can travel in time as an escape without it making any sense at all
I agree with all of the points... Dota is sometimes so unnecessarily complex... But knowing Koreans and how they liked BW over SC2 and as an ardent fan of Dota, I'm hoping the current starter league from (i know ) Nexon really showcases all the small intricacies that I've grown to love and appreciate. Only time will tell, but till then, I'm having my fingers crossed that Dota grows big in Korea~ Also, I know so many people will give me flak for this, but I like the Dota visuals better than LoL. Just the flowery/cartoony feel of LoL turns me off where as the darker WC3 feel that Dota still maintains keeps me in the tense, pressured adrenaline rush for most of the game.
It's funny because you remember how everyone was saying oh shit why does D3 have to be so cartoony, it's lost it's gritty dark colors, roar! Well, in this instance, I actually think it helps from a spectator stand-point to have distinct colors so everything stands out. When I first started watching Dota2 I found it incredibly hard on the eyes, especially on the Dire side and even on the Radiant side the colors just feel really subdued/diluted. You know what I mean? I think it's actually easier to follow the Brood War action compared to SC2 as well.
Time will tell how the Nexon League does, but I wouldn't cross my fingers. Nexon has let me down so many times that I've lost track.
Things in LoL are less distinguishable than Dota2.
Things in BW are more distinguishable than SC2.
LoL is more popular than Dota2 in Korea at the current time
BW is more popular than SC2 in Korea
We think we all know Asian aesthetics
But seriously, SC2's lighting is really very dark. And I have no idea why so many Americans and Europeans like this undistinguishable style.
On July 06 2013 06:59 iky43210 wrote: LoL is to moba is like what COD is to FPS. The main difference is Activision did not do enough to promote its esport section like what riot did with LoL, which is why it was never caught in a wild fire (f2p helped tremendously too).
Also its no wonder kespa is moving away from SC2. Look at the OSL tourneys, people would rather watch it through GOM than from their website.
See I'm no expert on MOBA games, but I can definitely assure you the difference between CoD and old school shooters is far, far greater than what you're implying it to be, both in terms of skill ceiling and skill displayed at the top level. Hell, it's kinda like the difference between the NBA and some kids shooting hoops in their backyard. Other than that I pretty much agree.
Still, I'm curious why this was posted in the SC2 General forum, since the article (or at least the bit in the OP) doesn't mention anything about SC2? :/
Playing dota is not anywhere near the same as playing LoL. Dota is often unnecessary complicated, with different and huge variation of attack speed between heros making last hit a bitch (add in last hitting and you're looking at world of fun). LoL are much more normalized with such regards. Animation are also quite "chunky" in dota that allows for fake cast or predictions, whereas LoL are smooth.
Towers are not baby sitters, allowing greater risk play in dota 2. Being able to deny people's gold by killing them is also a good mechanics that allows come backs. The come back in top LoL matches are usually illusions where one team comp becomes much more superior than the other. I'm not saying come back doesn't happen in LoL, but too many people attributes good play over simply reaching that stage of the game where your comp shines and there's little your opponents can do about it except hope you make mistakes. This is something dota 2 item department excels at, allowing you a fighting chance against specific team setup when such problem arise.
The available items in dota also makes LoL look like child play. The complexity of potential builds, synergy, and specific hero-item counter is staggering. LoL is quite normalize in that regards where all ADC builds the same, most tanky bruiser build the same, etc.
Heros in LoL are also quite homogenized. Honestly the newer batch of heros are just mash of abilities from available champions in LoL. Lissady felt alot like zed + icebear/morg, and zac is malphite + amumu. There is some uniqueness to them, but mechanically wise they don't feel too much different.
Then you look at Dota... Invokers? meepo? rubick? lanaya, carine, they all play drastically different from each other mechanically and build wise. Any of those champ put skill ceiling (and often times floor) much higher than any champion in LoL can currently accomplished.
Then there is the meta. Bot lane support never goes away in LoL, and beside early phases in LoL the meta have been slightly stagnant for many months. Jungle is not a pure viable lane and thus you end up with support/tank jungler all the time. Those kind of decisions really limits the role of each lane. Plus riot nerfs everything that is out of the ordinary, aka doesn't fit the meta, and people wonder why the game stagnant.
Excellent post. Everything is true in this post, the biggest problems IMO with LoL is the nerfing Riot is doing with every champion and the lack of original champions lately is just mindnumbing. I remember when champs used to be like Ashe, sure they were really simple character design but she was just a frost archer with skills that actually made sense on a frost archer. Nowadays every new champion needs like 1 gap closer if Melee, 1 high damage ability, 1 escape, some random AoE damage or AoE CC as an ulti. Same formula on every champ otherwise they wont work in the meta.
So instead of simple characters like Ashe, you end up with another archer but this one can travel in time as an escape without it making any sense at all
I agree with all of the points... Dota is sometimes so unnecessarily complex... But knowing Koreans and how they liked BW over SC2 and as an ardent fan of Dota, I'm hoping the current starter league from (i know ) Nexon really showcases all the small intricacies that I've grown to love and appreciate. Only time will tell, but till then, I'm having my fingers crossed that Dota grows big in Korea~ Also, I know so many people will give me flak for this, but I like the Dota visuals better than LoL. Just the flowery/cartoony feel of LoL turns me off where as the darker WC3 feel that Dota still maintains keeps me in the tense, pressured adrenaline rush for most of the game.
It's funny because you remember how everyone was saying oh shit why does D3 have to be so cartoony, it's lost it's gritty dark colors, roar! Well, in this instance, I actually think it helps from a spectator stand-point to have distinct colors so everything stands out. When I first started watching Dota2 I found it incredibly hard on the eyes, especially on the Dire side and even on the Radiant side the colors just feel really subdued/diluted. You know what I mean? I think it's actually easier to follow the Brood War action compared to SC2 as well.
Time will tell how the Nexon League does, but I wouldn't cross my fingers. Nexon has let me down so many times that I've lost track.
Things in LoL are less distinguishable than Dota2.
Things in BW are more distinguishable than SC2.
LoL is more popular than Dota2 in Korea at the current time
BW is more popular than SC2 in Korea
We think we all know Asian aesthetics
But seriously, SC2's lighting is really very dark. And I have no idea why so many Americans and Europeans like this undistinguishable style.
FTFY
You honestly think dota will take over lol in Korea? I mean the original dota wasn't even that popular in Korea was it? I think it will be very hard especially with this announcement and the amount of coverage it's going to get.
On July 06 2013 06:59 iky43210 wrote: LoL is to moba is like what COD is to FPS. The main difference is Activision did not do enough to promote its esport section like what riot did with LoL, which is why it was never caught in a wild fire (f2p helped tremendously too).
Also its no wonder kespa is moving away from SC2. Look at the OSL tourneys, people would rather watch it through GOM than from their website.
This may be true for foreign audiences but the majority of Koreans prefer OGN casters over GOM casters.
Also, Kespa is not moving away from SC2 but rather adding LOL to its arsenal just like they did with SF2 or Kart Rider.
On July 06 2013 10:58 trifecta wrote: A topic tangentially and speculatively related to sc2, posted in sc2 general, becomes a bizarro dota v lol v sc2 v bw discussion, and devolves into its elemental dota v lol form.
wat a mindfuck.
Much ado about nothing.
Special Forces had its own Proleague that was branded similarly as the Starcraft Proleague, so all I can see from this is one more LoL tournament, not necessarily sc2 be replaced or hybridized with LoL. KeSPA's involvement will probably mean an extra layer of administrative support and regulations for the LoL teams similar to what was done for other KeSPA-sanctioned games, not just Starcraft.
Imo, the effects of this news should be absolutely minimal regarding sc2. It's great for LoL, but that's it.
On July 06 2013 06:59 iky43210 wrote: LoL is to moba is like what COD is to FPS. The main difference is Activision did not do enough to promote its esport section like what riot did with LoL, which is why it was never caught in a wild fire (f2p helped tremendously too).
Also its no wonder kespa is moving away from SC2. Look at the OSL tourneys, people would rather watch it through GOM than from their website.
This may be true for foreign audiences but the majority of Koreans prefer OGN casters over GOM casters.
Also, Kespa is not moving away from SC2 but rather adding LOL to its arsenal just like they did with SF2 or Kart Rider.
There is a saying in my country that may be valid in this case, there's probably something similar in English as well. It goes like, "2 are having an argument, 3rd one wins". The two being SC2 and BW, and the 3rd one is... LoL.
So if only there was acceptance between SC2 & BW and a better transition...
On July 06 2013 06:59 iky43210 wrote: LoL is to moba is like what COD is to FPS. The main difference is Activision did not do enough to promote its esport section like what riot did with LoL, which is why it was never caught in a wild fire (f2p helped tremendously too).
Also its no wonder kespa is moving away from SC2. Look at the OSL tourneys, people would rather watch it through GOM than from their website.
See I'm no expert on MOBA games, but I can definitely assure you the difference between CoD and old school shooters is far, far greater than what you're implying it to be, both in terms of skill ceiling and skill displayed at the top level. Hell, it's kinda like the difference between the NBA and some kids shooting hoops in their backyard. Other than that I pretty much agree.
Still, I'm curious why this was posted in the SC2 General forum, since the article (or at least the bit in the OP) doesn't mention anything about SC2? :/
Playing dota is not anywhere near the same as playing LoL. Dota is often unnecessary complicated, with different and huge variation of attack speed between heros making last hit a bitch (add in last hitting and you're looking at world of fun). LoL are much more normalized with such regards. Animation are also quite "chunky" in dota that allows for fake cast or predictions, whereas LoL are smooth.
Towers are not baby sitters, allowing greater risk play in dota 2. Being able to deny people's gold by killing them is also a good mechanics that allows come backs. The come back in top LoL matches are usually illusions where one team comp becomes much more superior than the other. I'm not saying come back doesn't happen in LoL, but too many people attributes good play over simply reaching that stage of the game where your comp shines and there's little your opponents can do about it except hope you make mistakes. This is something dota 2 item department excels at, allowing you a fighting chance against specific team setup when such problem arise.
The available items in dota also makes LoL look like child play. The complexity of potential builds, synergy, and specific hero-item counter is staggering. LoL is quite normalize in that regards where all ADC builds the same, most tanky bruiser build the same, etc.
Heros in LoL are also quite homogenized. Honestly the newer batch of heros are just mash of abilities from available champions in LoL. Lissady felt alot like zed + icebear/morg, and zac is malphite + amumu. There is some uniqueness to them, but mechanically wise they don't feel too much different.
Then you look at Dota... Invokers? meepo? rubick? lanaya, carine, they all play drastically different from each other mechanically and build wise. Any of those champ put skill ceiling (and often times floor) much higher than any champion in LoL can currently accomplished.
Then there is the meta. Bot lane support never goes away in LoL, and beside early phases in LoL the meta have been slightly stagnant for many months. Jungle is not a pure viable lane and thus you end up with support/tank jungler all the time. Those kind of decisions really limits the role of each lane. Plus riot nerfs everything that is out of the ordinary, aka doesn't fit the meta, and people wonder why the game stagnant.
Excellent post. Everything is true in this post, the biggest problems IMO with LoL is the nerfing Riot is doing with every champion and the lack of original champions lately is just mindnumbing. I remember when champs used to be like Ashe, sure they were really simple character design but she was just a frost archer with skills that actually made sense on a frost archer. Nowadays every new champion needs like 1 gap closer if Melee, 1 high damage ability, 1 escape, some random AoE damage or AoE CC as an ulti. Same formula on every champ otherwise they wont work in the meta.
So instead of simple characters like Ashe, you end up with another archer but this one can travel in time as an escape without it making any sense at all
I agree with all of the points... Dota is sometimes so unnecessarily complex... But knowing Koreans and how they liked BW over SC2 and as an ardent fan of Dota, I'm hoping the current starter league from (i know ) Nexon really showcases all the small intricacies that I've grown to love and appreciate. Only time will tell, but till then, I'm having my fingers crossed that Dota grows big in Korea~ Also, I know so many people will give me flak for this, but I like the Dota visuals better than LoL. Just the flowery/cartoony feel of LoL turns me off where as the darker WC3 feel that Dota still maintains keeps me in the tense, pressured adrenaline rush for most of the game.
It's funny because you remember how everyone was saying oh shit why does D3 have to be so cartoony, it's lost it's gritty dark colors, roar! Well, in this instance, I actually think it helps from a spectator stand-point to have distinct colors so everything stands out. When I first started watching Dota2 I found it incredibly hard on the eyes, especially on the Dire side and even on the Radiant side the colors just feel really subdued/diluted. You know what I mean? I think it's actually easier to follow the Brood War action compared to SC2 as well.
Time will tell how the Nexon League does, but I wouldn't cross my fingers. Nexon has let me down so many times that I've lost track.
Things in LoL are less distinguishable than Dota2.
Things in BW are more distinguishable than SC2.
LoL is more popular than Dota2 in Korea at the current time
BW is more popular than SC2 in Korea
We think we all know Asian aesthetics
But seriously, SC2's lighting is really very dark. And I have no idea why so many Americans and Europeans like this undistinguishable style.
FTFY
Nexon went with GOM over OGN, and we all know how well that turned out for SC2. But sure, please do provide me evidence that point towards Dota 2 reaching above LoL's unprecedented popularity in Korea.
On July 06 2013 06:59 iky43210 wrote: LoL is to moba is like what COD is to FPS. The main difference is Activision did not do enough to promote its esport section like what riot did with LoL, which is why it was never caught in a wild fire (f2p helped tremendously too).
Also its no wonder kespa is moving away from SC2. Look at the OSL tourneys, people would rather watch it through GOM than from their website.
See I'm no expert on MOBA games, but I can definitely assure you the difference between CoD and old school shooters is far, far greater than what you're implying it to be, both in terms of skill ceiling and skill displayed at the top level. Hell, it's kinda like the difference between the NBA and some kids shooting hoops in their backyard. Other than that I pretty much agree.
Still, I'm curious why this was posted in the SC2 General forum, since the article (or at least the bit in the OP) doesn't mention anything about SC2? :/
Playing dota is not anywhere near the same as playing LoL. Dota is often unnecessary complicated, with different and huge variation of attack speed between heros making last hit a bitch (add in last hitting and you're looking at world of fun). LoL are much more normalized with such regards. Animation are also quite "chunky" in dota that allows for fake cast or predictions, whereas LoL are smooth.
Towers are not baby sitters, allowing greater risk play in dota 2. Being able to deny people's gold by killing them is also a good mechanics that allows come backs. The come back in top LoL matches are usually illusions where one team comp becomes much more superior than the other. I'm not saying come back doesn't happen in LoL, but too many people attributes good play over simply reaching that stage of the game where your comp shines and there's little your opponents can do about it except hope you make mistakes. This is something dota 2 item department excels at, allowing you a fighting chance against specific team setup when such problem arise.
The available items in dota also makes LoL look like child play. The complexity of potential builds, synergy, and specific hero-item counter is staggering. LoL is quite normalize in that regards where all ADC builds the same, most tanky bruiser build the same, etc.
Heros in LoL are also quite homogenized. Honestly the newer batch of heros are just mash of abilities from available champions in LoL. Lissady felt alot like zed + icebear/morg, and zac is malphite + amumu. There is some uniqueness to them, but mechanically wise they don't feel too much different.
Then you look at Dota... Invokers? meepo? rubick? lanaya, carine, they all play drastically different from each other mechanically and build wise. Any of those champ put skill ceiling (and often times floor) much higher than any champion in LoL can currently accomplished.
Then there is the meta. Bot lane support never goes away in LoL, and beside early phases in LoL the meta have been slightly stagnant for many months. Jungle is not a pure viable lane and thus you end up with support/tank jungler all the time. Those kind of decisions really limits the role of each lane. Plus riot nerfs everything that is out of the ordinary, aka doesn't fit the meta, and people wonder why the game stagnant.
Excellent post. Everything is true in this post, the biggest problems IMO with LoL is the nerfing Riot is doing with every champion and the lack of original champions lately is just mindnumbing. I remember when champs used to be like Ashe, sure they were really simple character design but she was just a frost archer with skills that actually made sense on a frost archer. Nowadays every new champion needs like 1 gap closer if Melee, 1 high damage ability, 1 escape, some random AoE damage or AoE CC as an ulti. Same formula on every champ otherwise they wont work in the meta.
So instead of simple characters like Ashe, you end up with another archer but this one can travel in time as an escape without it making any sense at all
I agree with all of the points... Dota is sometimes so unnecessarily complex... But knowing Koreans and how they liked BW over SC2 and as an ardent fan of Dota, I'm hoping the current starter league from (i know ) Nexon really showcases all the small intricacies that I've grown to love and appreciate. Only time will tell, but till then, I'm having my fingers crossed that Dota grows big in Korea~ Also, I know so many people will give me flak for this, but I like the Dota visuals better than LoL. Just the flowery/cartoony feel of LoL turns me off where as the darker WC3 feel that Dota still maintains keeps me in the tense, pressured adrenaline rush for most of the game.
It's funny because you remember how everyone was saying oh shit why does D3 have to be so cartoony, it's lost it's gritty dark colors, roar! Well, in this instance, I actually think it helps from a spectator stand-point to have distinct colors so everything stands out. When I first started watching Dota2 I found it incredibly hard on the eyes, especially on the Dire side and even on the Radiant side the colors just feel really subdued/diluted. You know what I mean? I think it's actually easier to follow the Brood War action compared to SC2 as well.
Time will tell how the Nexon League does, but I wouldn't cross my fingers. Nexon has let me down so many times that I've lost track.
Things in LoL are less distinguishable than Dota2.
Things in BW are more distinguishable than SC2.
LoL is more popular than Dota2 in Korea at the current time
BW is more popular than SC2 in Korea
We think we all know Asian aesthetics
But seriously, SC2's lighting is really very dark. And I have no idea why so many Americans and Europeans like this undistinguishable style.
FTFY
Nexon went with GOM over OGN, and we all know how well that turned out for SC2. But sure, please do provide me evidence that point towards Dota 2 reaching above LoL's unprecedented popularity in Korea.
Wait, are you saying LoL is more popular than Brood War ever was?
On July 06 2013 06:59 iky43210 wrote: LoL is to moba is like what COD is to FPS. The main difference is Activision did not do enough to promote its esport section like what riot did with LoL, which is why it was never caught in a wild fire (f2p helped tremendously too).
Also its no wonder kespa is moving away from SC2. Look at the OSL tourneys, people would rather watch it through GOM than from their website.
See I'm no expert on MOBA games, but I can definitely assure you the difference between CoD and old school shooters is far, far greater than what you're implying it to be, both in terms of skill ceiling and skill displayed at the top level. Hell, it's kinda like the difference between the NBA and some kids shooting hoops in their backyard. Other than that I pretty much agree.
Still, I'm curious why this was posted in the SC2 General forum, since the article (or at least the bit in the OP) doesn't mention anything about SC2? :/
Playing dota is not anywhere near the same as playing LoL. Dota is often unnecessary complicated, with different and huge variation of attack speed between heros making last hit a bitch (add in last hitting and you're looking at world of fun). LoL are much more normalized with such regards. Animation are also quite "chunky" in dota that allows for fake cast or predictions, whereas LoL are smooth.
Towers are not baby sitters, allowing greater risk play in dota 2. Being able to deny people's gold by killing them is also a good mechanics that allows come backs. The come back in top LoL matches are usually illusions where one team comp becomes much more superior than the other. I'm not saying come back doesn't happen in LoL, but too many people attributes good play over simply reaching that stage of the game where your comp shines and there's little your opponents can do about it except hope you make mistakes. This is something dota 2 item department excels at, allowing you a fighting chance against specific team setup when such problem arise.
The available items in dota also makes LoL look like child play. The complexity of potential builds, synergy, and specific hero-item counter is staggering. LoL is quite normalize in that regards where all ADC builds the same, most tanky bruiser build the same, etc.
Heros in LoL are also quite homogenized. Honestly the newer batch of heros are just mash of abilities from available champions in LoL. Lissady felt alot like zed + icebear/morg, and zac is malphite + amumu. There is some uniqueness to them, but mechanically wise they don't feel too much different.
Then you look at Dota... Invokers? meepo? rubick? lanaya, carine, they all play drastically different from each other mechanically and build wise. Any of those champ put skill ceiling (and often times floor) much higher than any champion in LoL can currently accomplished.
Then there is the meta. Bot lane support never goes away in LoL, and beside early phases in LoL the meta have been slightly stagnant for many months. Jungle is not a pure viable lane and thus you end up with support/tank jungler all the time. Those kind of decisions really limits the role of each lane. Plus riot nerfs everything that is out of the ordinary, aka doesn't fit the meta, and people wonder why the game stagnant.
Excellent post. Everything is true in this post, the biggest problems IMO with LoL is the nerfing Riot is doing with every champion and the lack of original champions lately is just mindnumbing. I remember when champs used to be like Ashe, sure they were really simple character design but she was just a frost archer with skills that actually made sense on a frost archer. Nowadays every new champion needs like 1 gap closer if Melee, 1 high damage ability, 1 escape, some random AoE damage or AoE CC as an ulti. Same formula on every champ otherwise they wont work in the meta.
So instead of simple characters like Ashe, you end up with another archer but this one can travel in time as an escape without it making any sense at all
I agree with all of the points... Dota is sometimes so unnecessarily complex... But knowing Koreans and how they liked BW over SC2 and as an ardent fan of Dota, I'm hoping the current starter league from (i know ) Nexon really showcases all the small intricacies that I've grown to love and appreciate. Only time will tell, but till then, I'm having my fingers crossed that Dota grows big in Korea~ Also, I know so many people will give me flak for this, but I like the Dota visuals better than LoL. Just the flowery/cartoony feel of LoL turns me off where as the darker WC3 feel that Dota still maintains keeps me in the tense, pressured adrenaline rush for most of the game.
It's funny because you remember how everyone was saying oh shit why does D3 have to be so cartoony, it's lost it's gritty dark colors, roar! Well, in this instance, I actually think it helps from a spectator stand-point to have distinct colors so everything stands out. When I first started watching Dota2 I found it incredibly hard on the eyes, especially on the Dire side and even on the Radiant side the colors just feel really subdued/diluted. You know what I mean? I think it's actually easier to follow the Brood War action compared to SC2 as well.
Time will tell how the Nexon League does, but I wouldn't cross my fingers. Nexon has let me down so many times that I've lost track.
Things in LoL are less distinguishable than Dota2.
Things in BW are more distinguishable than SC2.
LoL is more popular than Dota2 in Korea at the current time
BW is more popular than SC2 in Korea
We think we all know Asian aesthetics
But seriously, SC2's lighting is really very dark. And I have no idea why so many Americans and Europeans like this undistinguishable style.
FTFY
Nexon went with GOM over OGN, and we all know how well that turned out for SC2. But sure, please do provide me evidence that point towards Dota 2 reaching above LoL's unprecedented popularity in Korea.
Wait, are you saying LoL is more popular than Brood War ever was?
It is reaching BW's peak, and in the current state no game is even close to as popular as LoL is in Korea.
On July 06 2013 06:59 iky43210 wrote: LoL is to moba is like what COD is to FPS. The main difference is Activision did not do enough to promote its esport section like what riot did with LoL, which is why it was never caught in a wild fire (f2p helped tremendously too).
Also its no wonder kespa is moving away from SC2. Look at the OSL tourneys, people would rather watch it through GOM than from their website.
See I'm no expert on MOBA games, but I can definitely assure you the difference between CoD and old school shooters is far, far greater than what you're implying it to be, both in terms of skill ceiling and skill displayed at the top level. Hell, it's kinda like the difference between the NBA and some kids shooting hoops in their backyard. Other than that I pretty much agree.
Still, I'm curious why this was posted in the SC2 General forum, since the article (or at least the bit in the OP) doesn't mention anything about SC2? :/
Playing dota is not anywhere near the same as playing LoL. Dota is often unnecessary complicated, with different and huge variation of attack speed between heros making last hit a bitch (add in last hitting and you're looking at world of fun). LoL are much more normalized with such regards. Animation are also quite "chunky" in dota that allows for fake cast or predictions, whereas LoL are smooth.
Towers are not baby sitters, allowing greater risk play in dota 2. Being able to deny people's gold by killing them is also a good mechanics that allows come backs. The come back in top LoL matches are usually illusions where one team comp becomes much more superior than the other. I'm not saying come back doesn't happen in LoL, but too many people attributes good play over simply reaching that stage of the game where your comp shines and there's little your opponents can do about it except hope you make mistakes. This is something dota 2 item department excels at, allowing you a fighting chance against specific team setup when such problem arise.
The available items in dota also makes LoL look like child play. The complexity of potential builds, synergy, and specific hero-item counter is staggering. LoL is quite normalize in that regards where all ADC builds the same, most tanky bruiser build the same, etc.
Heros in LoL are also quite homogenized. Honestly the newer batch of heros are just mash of abilities from available champions in LoL. Lissady felt alot like zed + icebear/morg, and zac is malphite + amumu. There is some uniqueness to them, but mechanically wise they don't feel too much different.
Then you look at Dota... Invokers? meepo? rubick? lanaya, carine, they all play drastically different from each other mechanically and build wise. Any of those champ put skill ceiling (and often times floor) much higher than any champion in LoL can currently accomplished.
Then there is the meta. Bot lane support never goes away in LoL, and beside early phases in LoL the meta have been slightly stagnant for many months. Jungle is not a pure viable lane and thus you end up with support/tank jungler all the time. Those kind of decisions really limits the role of each lane. Plus riot nerfs everything that is out of the ordinary, aka doesn't fit the meta, and people wonder why the game stagnant.
Excellent post. Everything is true in this post, the biggest problems IMO with LoL is the nerfing Riot is doing with every champion and the lack of original champions lately is just mindnumbing. I remember when champs used to be like Ashe, sure they were really simple character design but she was just a frost archer with skills that actually made sense on a frost archer. Nowadays every new champion needs like 1 gap closer if Melee, 1 high damage ability, 1 escape, some random AoE damage or AoE CC as an ulti. Same formula on every champ otherwise they wont work in the meta.
So instead of simple characters like Ashe, you end up with another archer but this one can travel in time as an escape without it making any sense at all
I agree with all of the points... Dota is sometimes so unnecessarily complex... But knowing Koreans and how they liked BW over SC2 and as an ardent fan of Dota, I'm hoping the current starter league from (i know ) Nexon really showcases all the small intricacies that I've grown to love and appreciate. Only time will tell, but till then, I'm having my fingers crossed that Dota grows big in Korea~ Also, I know so many people will give me flak for this, but I like the Dota visuals better than LoL. Just the flowery/cartoony feel of LoL turns me off where as the darker WC3 feel that Dota still maintains keeps me in the tense, pressured adrenaline rush for most of the game.
It's funny because you remember how everyone was saying oh shit why does D3 have to be so cartoony, it's lost it's gritty dark colors, roar! Well, in this instance, I actually think it helps from a spectator stand-point to have distinct colors so everything stands out. When I first started watching Dota2 I found it incredibly hard on the eyes, especially on the Dire side and even on the Radiant side the colors just feel really subdued/diluted. You know what I mean? I think it's actually easier to follow the Brood War action compared to SC2 as well.
Time will tell how the Nexon League does, but I wouldn't cross my fingers. Nexon has let me down so many times that I've lost track.
Things in LoL are less distinguishable than Dota2.
Things in BW are more distinguishable than SC2.
LoL is more popular than Dota2 in Korea at the current time
BW is more popular than SC2 in Korea
We think we all know Asian aesthetics
But seriously, SC2's lighting is really very dark. And I have no idea why so many Americans and Europeans like this undistinguishable style.
FTFY
Nexon went with GOM over OGN, and we all know how well that turned out for SC2. But sure, please do provide me evidence that point towards Dota 2 reaching above LoL's unprecedented popularity in Korea.
Wait, are you saying LoL is more popular than Brood War ever was?
It is reaching BW's peak, and in the current state no game is even close to as popular as LoL is in Korea.
You had me confused with your use of "unprecedented."
On July 06 2013 06:59 iky43210 wrote: LoL is to moba is like what COD is to FPS. The main difference is Activision did not do enough to promote its esport section like what riot did with LoL, which is why it was never caught in a wild fire (f2p helped tremendously too).
Also its no wonder kespa is moving away from SC2. Look at the OSL tourneys, people would rather watch it through GOM than from their website.
See I'm no expert on MOBA games, but I can definitely assure you the difference between CoD and old school shooters is far, far greater than what you're implying it to be, both in terms of skill ceiling and skill displayed at the top level. Hell, it's kinda like the difference between the NBA and some kids shooting hoops in their backyard. Other than that I pretty much agree.
Still, I'm curious why this was posted in the SC2 General forum, since the article (or at least the bit in the OP) doesn't mention anything about SC2? :/
Playing dota is not anywhere near the same as playing LoL. Dota is often unnecessary complicated, with different and huge variation of attack speed between heros making last hit a bitch (add in last hitting and you're looking at world of fun). LoL are much more normalized with such regards. Animation are also quite "chunky" in dota that allows for fake cast or predictions, whereas LoL are smooth.
Towers are not baby sitters, allowing greater risk play in dota 2. Being able to deny people's gold by killing them is also a good mechanics that allows come backs. The come back in top LoL matches are usually illusions where one team comp becomes much more superior than the other. I'm not saying come back doesn't happen in LoL, but too many people attributes good play over simply reaching that stage of the game where your comp shines and there's little your opponents can do about it except hope you make mistakes. This is something dota 2 item department excels at, allowing you a fighting chance against specific team setup when such problem arise.
The available items in dota also makes LoL look like child play. The complexity of potential builds, synergy, and specific hero-item counter is staggering. LoL is quite normalize in that regards where all ADC builds the same, most tanky bruiser build the same, etc.
Heros in LoL are also quite homogenized. Honestly the newer batch of heros are just mash of abilities from available champions in LoL. Lissady felt alot like zed + icebear/morg, and zac is malphite + amumu. There is some uniqueness to them, but mechanically wise they don't feel too much different.
Then you look at Dota... Invokers? meepo? rubick? lanaya, carine, they all play drastically different from each other mechanically and build wise. Any of those champ put skill ceiling (and often times floor) much higher than any champion in LoL can currently accomplished.
Then there is the meta. Bot lane support never goes away in LoL, and beside early phases in LoL the meta have been slightly stagnant for many months. Jungle is not a pure viable lane and thus you end up with support/tank jungler all the time. Those kind of decisions really limits the role of each lane. Plus riot nerfs everything that is out of the ordinary, aka doesn't fit the meta, and people wonder why the game stagnant.
Excellent post. Everything is true in this post, the biggest problems IMO with LoL is the nerfing Riot is doing with every champion and the lack of original champions lately is just mindnumbing. I remember when champs used to be like Ashe, sure they were really simple character design but she was just a frost archer with skills that actually made sense on a frost archer. Nowadays every new champion needs like 1 gap closer if Melee, 1 high damage ability, 1 escape, some random AoE damage or AoE CC as an ulti. Same formula on every champ otherwise they wont work in the meta.
So instead of simple characters like Ashe, you end up with another archer but this one can travel in time as an escape without it making any sense at all
I agree with all of the points... Dota is sometimes so unnecessarily complex... But knowing Koreans and how they liked BW over SC2 and as an ardent fan of Dota, I'm hoping the current starter league from (i know ) Nexon really showcases all the small intricacies that I've grown to love and appreciate. Only time will tell, but till then, I'm having my fingers crossed that Dota grows big in Korea~ Also, I know so many people will give me flak for this, but I like the Dota visuals better than LoL. Just the flowery/cartoony feel of LoL turns me off where as the darker WC3 feel that Dota still maintains keeps me in the tense, pressured adrenaline rush for most of the game.
It's funny because you remember how everyone was saying oh shit why does D3 have to be so cartoony, it's lost it's gritty dark colors, roar! Well, in this instance, I actually think it helps from a spectator stand-point to have distinct colors so everything stands out. When I first started watching Dota2 I found it incredibly hard on the eyes, especially on the Dire side and even on the Radiant side the colors just feel really subdued/diluted. You know what I mean? I think it's actually easier to follow the Brood War action compared to SC2 as well.
Time will tell how the Nexon League does, but I wouldn't cross my fingers. Nexon has let me down so many times that I've lost track.
Things in LoL are less distinguishable than Dota2.
Things in BW are more distinguishable than SC2.
LoL is more popular than Dota2 in Korea at the current time
BW is more popular than SC2 in Korea
We think we all know Asian aesthetics
But seriously, SC2's lighting is really very dark. And I have no idea why so many Americans and Europeans like this undistinguishable style.
FTFY
Nexon went with GOM over OGN, and we all know how well that turned out for SC2. But sure, please do provide me evidence that point towards Dota 2 reaching above LoL's unprecedented popularity in Korea.
Wait, are you saying LoL is more popular than Brood War ever was?
It is reaching BW's peak, and in the current state no game is even close to as popular as LoL is in Korea.
You had me confused with your use of "unprecedented."
Well I do not know, but did BW ever have 40% of the share at PC Bangs? Just taking this as an example.
I'm a realest and i love sc2 more than anything. I've been playing starcraft all my life and is my favorite game all time.
League of legends is the new esports title. It is Brood war. It's the only esports game that's profitable.
For every 1 sc2 fan, there's 100. You can't compete with that. League of legends is always new because of every season changes (this season the jungle changes and items). Plus there's a new champion every month.
Starcraft 2 took years for HOTS and it added a couple units. Game needs to evolve and change. I already threw out this idea, make whole race skins and make the game free or cheap to purchase. Imagine 4 skins for protoss and they all look different and cool. Maybe add units every couple months??
On July 06 2013 18:24 Malphite wrote: Starcraft 2 took years for HOTS and it added a couple units. Game needs to evolve and change. I already threw out this idea, make whole race skins and make the game free or cheap to purchase. Imagine 4 skins for protoss and they all look different and cool. Maybe add units every couple months??
On July 06 2013 06:59 iky43210 wrote: LoL is to moba is like what COD is to FPS. The main difference is Activision did not do enough to promote its esport section like what riot did with LoL, which is why it was never caught in a wild fire (f2p helped tremendously too).
Also its no wonder kespa is moving away from SC2. Look at the OSL tourneys, people would rather watch it through GOM than from their website.
See I'm no expert on MOBA games, but I can definitely assure you the difference between CoD and old school shooters is far, far greater than what you're implying it to be, both in terms of skill ceiling and skill displayed at the top level. Hell, it's kinda like the difference between the NBA and some kids shooting hoops in their backyard. Other than that I pretty much agree.
Still, I'm curious why this was posted in the SC2 General forum, since the article (or at least the bit in the OP) doesn't mention anything about SC2? :/
Playing dota is not anywhere near the same as playing LoL. Dota is often unnecessary complicated, with different and huge variation of attack speed between heros making last hit a bitch (add in last hitting and you're looking at world of fun). LoL are much more normalized with such regards. Animation are also quite "chunky" in dota that allows for fake cast or predictions, whereas LoL are smooth.
Towers are not baby sitters, allowing greater risk play in dota 2. Being able to deny people's gold by killing them is also a good mechanics that allows come backs. The come back in top LoL matches are usually illusions where one team comp becomes much more superior than the other. I'm not saying come back doesn't happen in LoL, but too many people attributes good play over simply reaching that stage of the game where your comp shines and there's little your opponents can do about it except hope you make mistakes. This is something dota 2 item department excels at, allowing you a fighting chance against specific team setup when such problem arise.
The available items in dota also makes LoL look like child play. The complexity of potential builds, synergy, and specific hero-item counter is staggering. LoL is quite normalize in that regards where all ADC builds the same, most tanky bruiser build the same, etc.
Heros in LoL are also quite homogenized. Honestly the newer batch of heros are just mash of abilities from available champions in LoL. Lissady felt alot like zed + icebear/morg, and zac is malphite + amumu. There is some uniqueness to them, but mechanically wise they don't feel too much different.
Then you look at Dota... Invokers? meepo? rubick? lanaya, carine, they all play drastically different from each other mechanically and build wise. Any of those champ put skill ceiling (and often times floor) much higher than any champion in LoL can currently accomplished.
Then there is the meta. Bot lane support never goes away in LoL, and beside early phases in LoL the meta have been slightly stagnant for many months. Jungle is not a pure viable lane and thus you end up with support/tank jungler all the time. Those kind of decisions really limits the role of each lane. Plus riot nerfs everything that is out of the ordinary, aka doesn't fit the meta, and people wonder why the game stagnant.
Excellent post. Everything is true in this post, the biggest problems IMO with LoL is the nerfing Riot is doing with every champion and the lack of original champions lately is just mindnumbing. I remember when champs used to be like Ashe, sure they were really simple character design but she was just a frost archer with skills that actually made sense on a frost archer. Nowadays every new champion needs like 1 gap closer if Melee, 1 high damage ability, 1 escape, some random AoE damage or AoE CC as an ulti. Same formula on every champ otherwise they wont work in the meta.
So instead of simple characters like Ashe, you end up with another archer but this one can travel in time as an escape without it making any sense at all
I agree with all of the points... Dota is sometimes so unnecessarily complex... But knowing Koreans and how they liked BW over SC2 and as an ardent fan of Dota, I'm hoping the current starter league from (i know ) Nexon really showcases all the small intricacies that I've grown to love and appreciate. Only time will tell, but till then, I'm having my fingers crossed that Dota grows big in Korea~ Also, I know so many people will give me flak for this, but I like the Dota visuals better than LoL. Just the flowery/cartoony feel of LoL turns me off where as the darker WC3 feel that Dota still maintains keeps me in the tense, pressured adrenaline rush for most of the game.
It's funny because you remember how everyone was saying oh shit why does D3 have to be so cartoony, it's lost it's gritty dark colors, roar! Well, in this instance, I actually think it helps from a spectator stand-point to have distinct colors so everything stands out. When I first started watching Dota2 I found it incredibly hard on the eyes, especially on the Dire side and even on the Radiant side the colors just feel really subdued/diluted. You know what I mean? I think it's actually easier to follow the Brood War action compared to SC2 as well.
Time will tell how the Nexon League does, but I wouldn't cross my fingers. Nexon has let me down so many times that I've lost track.
Things in LoL are less distinguishable than Dota2.
Things in BW are more distinguishable than SC2.
LoL is more popular than Dota2 in Korea at the current time
BW is more popular than SC2 in Korea
We think we all know Asian aesthetics
But seriously, SC2's lighting is really very dark. And I have no idea why so many Americans and Europeans like this undistinguishable style.
FTFY
Nexon went with GOM over OGN, and we all know how well that turned out for SC2. But sure, please do provide me evidence that point towards Dota 2 reaching above LoL's unprecedented popularity in Korea.
Wait, are you saying LoL is more popular than Brood War ever was?
It is reaching BW's peak, and in the current state no game is even close to as popular as LoL is in Korea.
You had me confused with your use of "unprecedented."
Well I do not know, but did BW ever have 40% of the share at PC Bangs? Just taking this as an example.
not exactly what u mean by "share", but bw was the most played game in pc bangs for YEARS. not even lol will have surpassed the amount of hours bw was played in pc bangs. of course, theres no way to actually calculate it, but just by looking at the number of years lol has been popular in korea vs bw was, brood war still wins.
I agree with all of the points... Dota is sometimes so unnecessarily complex... But knowing Koreans and how they liked BW over SC2 and as an ardent fan of Dota, I'm hoping the current starter league from (i know ) Nexon really showcases all the small intricacies that I've grown to love and appreciate. Only time will tell, but till then, I'm having my fingers crossed that Dota grows big in Korea~ Also, I know so many people will give me flak for this, but I like the Dota visuals better than LoL. Just the flowery/cartoony feel of LoL turns me off where as the darker WC3 feel that Dota still maintains keeps me in the tense, pressured adrenaline rush for most of the game.
It's funny because you remember how everyone was saying oh shit why does D3 have to be so cartoony, it's lost it's gritty dark colors, roar! Well, in this instance, I actually think it helps from a spectator stand-point to have distinct colors so everything stands out. When I first started watching Dota2 I found it incredibly hard on the eyes, especially on the Dire side and even on the Radiant side the colors just feel really subdued/diluted. You know what I mean? I think it's actually easier to follow the Brood War action compared to SC2 as well.
Time will tell how the Nexon League does, but I wouldn't cross my fingers. Nexon has let me down so many times that I've lost track.
Things in LoL are less distinguishable than Dota2.
Things in BW are more distinguishable than SC2.
LoL is more popular than Dota2 in Korea at the current time
BW is more popular than SC2 in Korea
We think we all know Asian aesthetics
But seriously, SC2's lighting is really very dark. And I have no idea why so many Americans and Europeans like this undistinguishable style.
FTFY
Nexon went with GOM over OGN, and we all know how well that turned out for SC2. But sure, please do provide me evidence that point towards Dota 2 reaching above LoL's unprecedented popularity in Korea.
Wait, are you saying LoL is more popular than Brood War ever was?
It is reaching BW's peak, and in the current state no game is even close to as popular as LoL is in Korea.
You had me confused with your use of "unprecedented."
Well I do not know, but did BW ever have 40% of the share at PC Bangs? Just taking this as an example.
not exactly what u mean by "share", but bw was the most played game in pc bangs for YEARS. not even lol will have surpassed the amount of hours bw was played in pc bangs. of course, theres no way to actually calculate it, but just by looking at the number of years lol has been popular in korea vs bw was, brood war still wins.
Of course LoL wouldn't have come close to number of hours BW played in pc bangs, it's been out for 15 years.
On July 06 2013 06:59 iky43210 wrote: LoL is to moba is like what COD is to FPS. The main difference is Activision did not do enough to promote its esport section like what riot did with LoL, which is why it was never caught in a wild fire (f2p helped tremendously too).
Also its no wonder kespa is moving away from SC2. Look at the OSL tourneys, people would rather watch it through GOM than from their website.
See I'm no expert on MOBA games, but I can definitely assure you the difference between CoD and old school shooters is far, far greater than what you're implying it to be, both in terms of skill ceiling and skill displayed at the top level. Hell, it's kinda like the difference between the NBA and some kids shooting hoops in their backyard. Other than that I pretty much agree.
Still, I'm curious why this was posted in the SC2 General forum, since the article (or at least the bit in the OP) doesn't mention anything about SC2? :/
Playing dota is not anywhere near the same as playing LoL. Dota is often unnecessary complicated, with different and huge variation of attack speed between heros making last hit a bitch (add in last hitting and you're looking at world of fun). LoL are much more normalized with such regards. Animation are also quite "chunky" in dota that allows for fake cast or predictions, whereas LoL are smooth.
Towers are not baby sitters, allowing greater risk play in dota 2. Being able to deny people's gold by killing them is also a good mechanics that allows come backs. The come back in top LoL matches are usually illusions where one team comp becomes much more superior than the other. I'm not saying come back doesn't happen in LoL, but too many people attributes good play over simply reaching that stage of the game where your comp shines and there's little your opponents can do about it except hope you make mistakes. This is something dota 2 item department excels at, allowing you a fighting chance against specific team setup when such problem arise.
The available items in dota also makes LoL look like child play. The complexity of potential builds, synergy, and specific hero-item counter is staggering. LoL is quite normalize in that regards where all ADC builds the same, most tanky bruiser build the same, etc.
Heros in LoL are also quite homogenized. Honestly the newer batch of heros are just mash of abilities from available champions in LoL. Lissady felt alot like zed + icebear/morg, and zac is malphite + amumu. There is some uniqueness to them, but mechanically wise they don't feel too much different.
Then you look at Dota... Invokers? meepo? rubick? lanaya, carine, they all play drastically different from each other mechanically and build wise. Any of those champ put skill ceiling (and often times floor) much higher than any champion in LoL can currently accomplished.
Then there is the meta. Bot lane support never goes away in LoL, and beside early phases in LoL the meta have been slightly stagnant for many months. Jungle is not a pure viable lane and thus you end up with support/tank jungler all the time. Those kind of decisions really limits the role of each lane. Plus riot nerfs everything that is out of the ordinary, aka doesn't fit the meta, and people wonder why the game stagnant.
Excellent post. Everything is true in this post, the biggest problems IMO with LoL is the nerfing Riot is doing with every champion and the lack of original champions lately is just mindnumbing. I remember when champs used to be like Ashe, sure they were really simple character design but she was just a frost archer with skills that actually made sense on a frost archer. Nowadays every new champion needs like 1 gap closer if Melee, 1 high damage ability, 1 escape, some random AoE damage or AoE CC as an ulti. Same formula on every champ otherwise they wont work in the meta.
So instead of simple characters like Ashe, you end up with another archer but this one can travel in time as an escape without it making any sense at all
I agree with all of the points... Dota is sometimes so unnecessarily complex... But knowing Koreans and how they liked BW over SC2 and as an ardent fan of Dota, I'm hoping the current starter league from (i know ) Nexon really showcases all the small intricacies that I've grown to love and appreciate. Only time will tell, but till then, I'm having my fingers crossed that Dota grows big in Korea~ Also, I know so many people will give me flak for this, but I like the Dota visuals better than LoL. Just the flowery/cartoony feel of LoL turns me off where as the darker WC3 feel that Dota still maintains keeps me in the tense, pressured adrenaline rush for most of the game.
It's funny because you remember how everyone was saying oh shit why does D3 have to be so cartoony, it's lost it's gritty dark colors, roar! Well, in this instance, I actually think it helps from a spectator stand-point to have distinct colors so everything stands out. When I first started watching Dota2 I found it incredibly hard on the eyes, especially on the Dire side and even on the Radiant side the colors just feel really subdued/diluted. You know what I mean? I think it's actually easier to follow the Brood War action compared to SC2 as well.
Time will tell how the Nexon League does, but I wouldn't cross my fingers. Nexon has let me down so many times that I've lost track.
Things in LoL are less distinguishable than Dota2.
Things in BW are more distinguishable than SC2.
LoL is more popular than Dota2 in Korea at the current time
BW is more popular than SC2 in Korea
We think we all know Asian aesthetics
But seriously, SC2's lighting is really very dark. And I have no idea why so many Americans and Europeans like this undistinguishable style.
FTFY
Nexon went with GOM over OGN, and we all know how well that turned out for SC2. But sure, please do provide me evidence that point towards Dota 2 reaching above LoL's unprecedented popularity in Korea.
Wait, are you saying LoL is more popular than Brood War ever was?
It is reaching BW's peak, and in the current state no game is even close to as popular as LoL is in Korea.
You had me confused with your use of "unprecedented."
Well I do not know, but did BW ever have 40% of the share at PC Bangs? Just taking this as an example.
Quote of a guys pages before about the popularity of these games in pc bang.
Even a person who is bad at math knows that the LoL share at PC bangs in one month surpass BW's share in one year.
On July 04 2013 15:18 SnakEhead wrote: I think sc2 success or lack there of in Korea is, because of popularity of lol. Broodwar was the only popular game for years with little competition from other developers. Now we have starcraft 2, dota2, and lol. I think LOL is taking away viewers who would normally be watching sc2.
Not really. BW had been a popular game but it was not top 1 since maybe 2005. So BW was no where close to the popularity of LoL. If you want, I have data to back up.
And remember this was before LoL was out and BW only accounts for 6% in PC bang play time, and this number has been like this for a long time, but LoL currently accounts for 40% and has been like this for a while. It's absurdly popular and much much more popular than BW.
On July 06 2013 06:59 iky43210 wrote: LoL is to moba is like what COD is to FPS. The main difference is Activision did not do enough to promote its esport section like what riot did with LoL, which is why it was never caught in a wild fire (f2p helped tremendously too).
Also its no wonder kespa is moving away from SC2. Look at the OSL tourneys, people would rather watch it through GOM than from their website.
Foreign views probably have very little to do with their decisions. Theyre a korean organization with korean companies, all the sponsors are korean companies. They care about the korean viewership and the korean viewers are what drives their decisions. Yeah, the foreign views and fans do matter to them, but to a much lesser extent.
It's funny because you remember how everyone was saying oh shit why does D3 have to be so cartoony, it's lost it's gritty dark colors, roar! Well, in this instance, I actually think it helps from a spectator stand-point to have distinct colors so everything stands out. When I first started watching Dota2 I found it incredibly hard on the eyes, especially on the Dire side and even on the Radiant side the colors just feel really subdued/diluted. You know what I mean? I think it's actually easier to follow the Brood War action compared to SC2 as well.
Time will tell how the Nexon League does, but I wouldn't cross my fingers. Nexon has let me down so many times that I've lost track.
Things in LoL are less distinguishable than Dota2.
Things in BW are more distinguishable than SC2.
LoL is more popular than Dota2 in Korea at the current time
BW is more popular than SC2 in Korea
We think we all know Asian aesthetics
But seriously, SC2's lighting is really very dark. And I have no idea why so many Americans and Europeans like this undistinguishable style.
FTFY
Nexon went with GOM over OGN, and we all know how well that turned out for SC2. But sure, please do provide me evidence that point towards Dota 2 reaching above LoL's unprecedented popularity in Korea.
Wait, are you saying LoL is more popular than Brood War ever was?
It is reaching BW's peak, and in the current state no game is even close to as popular as LoL is in Korea.
You had me confused with your use of "unprecedented."
Well I do not know, but did BW ever have 40% of the share at PC Bangs? Just taking this as an example.
not exactly what u mean by "share", but bw was the most played game in pc bangs for YEARS. not even lol will have surpassed the amount of hours bw was played in pc bangs. of course, theres no way to actually calculate it, but just by looking at the number of years lol has been popular in korea vs bw was, brood war still wins.
Of course LoL wouldn't have come close to number of hours BW played in pc bangs, it's been out for 15 years.
The 40% percent meant at the current time. We're not looking at how many people played it over the years. There was a lot of luck involved man, Hanbit distributed the game the same time Korea's internet infrastructure went up and the rest is history.
On July 06 2013 06:59 iky43210 wrote: LoL is to moba is like what COD is to FPS. The main difference is Activision did not do enough to promote its esport section like what riot did with LoL, which is why it was never caught in a wild fire (f2p helped tremendously too).
Also its no wonder kespa is moving away from SC2. Look at the OSL tourneys, people would rather watch it through GOM than from their website.
Foreign views probably have very little to do with their decisions. Theyre a korean organization with korean companies, all the sponsors are korean companies. They care about the korean viewership and the korean viewers are what drives their decisions. Yeah, the foreign views and fans do matter to them, but to a much lesser extent.
Yep, we're tagging along for the ride so I say enjoy it. We owe a lot to our Korean Overlords and Oh Golorious Leader. ( )
People are over-thinking the relationship between different games to eSports. The best way to approach it is to enjoy the content that you find enjoyable. If you are very passionate about a specific genre, you can support it financially or with your time/skill. It isn't like you are going to be able to force others to enjoy something that they don't, just focus on increasing exposure of your game if you are indeed that passionate about it.
Also its no wonder kespa is moving away from SC2. Look at the OSL tourneys, people would rather watch it through GOM than from their website.
The OSL handling of the event is decent, the only problem is the casters, and it only affects european viewership. I don't think the ratio of people watching from gom is as big in korea. And since Kespa cares only about korean viewership, it should not be a problem. The real problem is the size of the scene and the money in it. LoL is huge in term of playerbase and potential viewerbase. The shame is it's a decent game, but it's pretty bad to watch (long games for not that much interesting action/plays. The good ones are really interesting to watch, but it's diluted in a lot of parts without action).
This could end up being good or Bad. It's too soon to officially tell... Hopefully both League and Starcraft can just peacefully coexist with each being watched by their respective audience.
And noone was suprised; LoL is retardedly popular in Korea
#ESPORTS
Okay to clarify: I can't possibly imagining doing anything but saturate the e-sport audience with more viewers, heck, I could even see sc2 PL being supported by since a game as retardedly popular as LoL being aired on the same "stage" could bring more viewers to SC2
I wonder if they could do something like the Sudden attack / BW merge, was an interesting idea atleast
On July 04 2013 14:04 larse wrote: Riot's representative said that holding global tournaments in Korea is like holding world cup in Brazil--it's crazily good. They hope regions will have more cooperation.