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I will start this thread with a quote from Liquipedia:
"The Ghost is a specialized infantry unit built from a Barracks with an attached Tech Lab once a Ghost Academy has been constructed. The Ghost stands as an Anti-Spellcaster unit and high damage versus Psionic and Light units. "
That sounds super cool - doesnt it?
Reality: While focusing on even finding a new unit for Terran we often seem to forget to even discuss the Ghost. This specialized infantry unit is... hardly seeing any play what so ever.
I think we can count on one hand the number of games we have seen more than three ghosts in a game during this season of PL. The one time Terran seem to make Ghosts, they make 3 of them to bring with the boys push.
I find it sad that one of the cooler and more iconic units in Starcraft actually is a one match up one trick pony that nobody seem to notice.
Blizzard is currently trying to come up with ideas for new Terran units (they seem to struggle a lot with that) - meanwhile they are trying lots of new things on units, changing stats (hell the Ultralisk for an example), giving unused units abilities (eg. Infestor, Carrier).
And the ghost.. Just seem to remain useless. Its a unit you pay 200/100 for - and you get a unit that hardly is better than a marine in most situations.
Topics do discuss: Should the Ghost me mentioned more often when balance is being discussed? What cool abilities could be added for the Ghost to make it usefull outside TvP? Could the stats be changed?
The LoTV beta seems like a perfect moment to try some new stuff out. If it does not work. Well yeah, we can always enjoy the 3-ghost push every now and then
Post with some suggestions:
Hider has some ideas: + Show Spoiler +On April 04 2015 00:44 Hider wrote:In general, I am not a fan of the spellcasters in Sc2, but Ghosts are especially problematic. In my essay below, I first mention the reasons I dislike its current design, and later on I offer an idea for a new Ghost. Some of you guys might agree with parts of it, and others might think my ideas require too much change. But this is just how I wanna see it changed; EMP+ Show Spoiler +Never have I enjoyed spamming EMPs over the protoss army and whenever I offraced I never actually thought "hey that's so fun with the Ghosts draining all of my HTs energy". My logic is that when there is nothing even remotely fun about an ability, scrap it and replace it with something else. I know we have had an EMP in Sc2 for 5 years and in BW for even longer, but right now, it's just a really boring ability and it only really works vs one race. So get rid of it and find other ways to balance terran. Snipe+ Show Spoiler +Pew Pew Pew... Yeh it sounds cool, but unfortunately that's the only cool thing about Snipe. It's a spamable ability with no countermicro and therefore it simply cannot be properly balanced. Keep the snipe sound, but reuse it in a different way, because this snipe-ability needs to be removed.
Cloak and Nuke+ Show Spoiler +Unlike EMP and Snipe, there is potential here. Running around with cloaked Ghosts and nuking enemy bases or armies.... it's a kinda cool thing, and there definitely is alot of countermicro here. Perhaps even a bit, but luckily this is more of a numbers-issue than a general concept flaw.
Suggestions+ Show Spoiler +Okay, so what is the role of the Ghost gonna be if it doesn't have Snipe and EMP? First of all, I wanna promote the nuke-role further. I wanna see more ghosts cloaking around the map and nuking enemy bases or zoning out the enemy army. Secondly, it does ofc need utility with the army, but rather than thinking in terms of offensive abilities, I believe the Ghost could function better if it had defensive abilities.
New Ability 1: Spellresist+ Show Spoiler +The ghost can activate Spellresist and a large bubble around the Ghost appears (like Guardian Shield) and all enemy spell- and splash damage is reduced by 20-30%. Yes, this isn't a super microintensive thing, but it's not really needed here. Rather, this is a way of giving bio a way to be less glass-cannon'ish against Fungal, Ultras, Storm, Disruptors and Colossus.... without being a hardcounter/anti-micro thing. It's the kind of ability that is supposed to feel "not frustrating" while at the same time give the Ghost a clear role in the game. New Ability 2: Defensive Matrix+ Show Spoiler +Target a friendly unit and temporarily increase its HP by XXX. While Spellresist will synergize better w/ bio, Defensive Matrix works better with mech. E.g. you can make that Thor in the front slightly more tanky. If the enemy continues to focus fire it, they are in for a rough time. New Ability 3: Nuke+ Show Spoiler +So I actually spent some hours in the editor previously, and I discovered that the following changes feels the nicest: - Time it takes for Nuke to land = roughly 10-12 seconds. - Damage reduced from 300 to 175 - Splash damage changed so it oneshots workers in a much lower radius - Nuke research time reduced to 15-20 seconds (from 60 I believe) - Nuke cost reduced to 50/50 from 100/100
The effect of these changes is to make the Nuke somewhat more reliable and cost-efficient... as a zoning tool ofc. The enemy should still be able to spot it the majority of the time, but if he doesn't spot it (which is more likely to occur w/ these changes), he is not gonna lose his whole army. It's a big deal but not something that automatically is gonna result in a win. New Ability 4: Stim+ Show Spoiler +Yeh this is the most controversial suggestion probably. Some may initally say "nonono you can't do that, it's not intended to be like a Marine or Maurauder". And they are right in that its not intended to be llike that. But there are two reasons I want to see it added:
(1) Ghost needs a mobility ability to further promote cloacked harass play (2) I just hate having Ghosts w/ my army. It messes up control grups. Adding in stim makes it more simple to control bio + ghost as you can have Ghosts with your MMM in one control group.
With regards to the latter, I also know a lot of people will say that it's good to have different control groups because it (a) rewards you for splitting up your army or (b) because it increases the skillcap.
The former complaint is straight up wrong. Ghosts in Sc2 are typically really deathball'ish and pure bio is one of the most multitaskbased compositions in the game.
The second complaint is correct, however, I don't think its a fun way of increasing the skillcap. I want the game to feel easy to play while having endless micro opportunites. Micro means stuff like splitting, focus firing, pulling back injured units, casting abilites well and dropship pick-up interactions. 1a2a3a isn't micro for me, but just an annoyance.
But, don't overfocus on the stim-part here. There are other types of possilbiites. For instance it could also just be straight up faster when cloaked (instead of getting stim). Last remarks+ Show Spoiler +This Ghost will overall promote longer battles, it will work vs all races and it's not a "prevent stuff from happening" spellcaster. The intention is that you have maybe with your army for defensive matrix and spellresist, and then maybe 2-3 that you send around the map and nuke your army or perhaps use the stimmed Ghosts to snipe off workers or other isolated enemy units.
In regards to having a more damagefocussed spellcaster, I reserved that role for the Raven. Imo PDD needs a real replacement and Seeker Missile needs to be tuned as well, but that's an essay for a different day.
Tactically it also has more utility in the Nuke being more reliable at zoning out the enemy army.
JulDragon regarding the Spectre ability: + Show Spoiler +On April 04 2015 00:49 JulDraGoN wrote:What about that spell Ultrasonic Pulse that Spectre had in the WoL campaign? Like an EMP for biological units, you make it only affect bio and reduce the area of effect. Maybe too strong?
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The role of the ghost in LOTV will be to shut down the only viable AoE damage of the protoss in TvP(that is after the colossus nerfs). You can always use it against Vipers too... Just until now, nobody really bothered to build vipers against terran.
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Ghost is massively underused. They virtually have no meaning by now, even against P, although ideally they should be a core unit in any bio composition.
With the degradation of the Marauder, they should - especially against Z - gain more significance. Something like an armor-halving round would already be fantastic against all sorts of enemies and you don't need a massive amount of them. Just 3 or 4 as support.
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Well with more bases i think Nuke harass might be a thing. That is if Tank Drops don't outshine them. Then again nuke warnings cause panic and messes with your mind.
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On April 03 2015 23:04 Pr0wler wrote: The role of the ghost in LOTV will be to shut down the only viable AoE damage of the protoss in TvP(that is after the colossus nerfs). You can always use it against Vipers too... Just until now, nobody really bothered to build vipers against terran. "Only viable". You forgot the disruptor? Or are you suggesting that you found a way to use the ghost vs an invincible moving ball of death ;D?
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we see most ghosts than infestors and broodlords I hope these units can get a looked at as well
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If a ghost would come with one free nuke I would be building em non stop.
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On April 04 2015 00:01 ETisME wrote:we see most ghosts than infestors and broodlords I hope these units can get a looked at as well
The problem with Blords isn´t that they are bad, rather than their counters being overwhelmingly strong. Tempests anyone?
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On April 04 2015 00:00 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2015 23:04 Pr0wler wrote: The role of the ghost in LOTV will be to shut down the only viable AoE damage of the protoss in TvP(that is after the colossus nerfs). You can always use it against Vipers too... Just until now, nobody really bothered to build vipers against terran. "Only viable". You forgot the disruptor? Or are you suggesting that you found a way to use the ghost vs an invincible moving ball of death ;D?
it would be fun if you could interrupt the disruptor with emp :D
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the Terran who doesn't use Ghosts is the Terran who likes it rough. Or one that is to busy macroing to use spell casters.
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On April 04 2015 00:07 alpenrahm wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2015 00:01 ETisME wrote:we see most ghosts than infestors and broodlords I hope these units can get a looked at as well The problem with Blords isn´t that they are bad, rather than their counters being overwhelmingly strong. Tempests anyone? and because they are just too slow. I think it is going to be worse in LotV where bases are more spread out.
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Maybe giving Ghost stim would make them more useful and microing them would be easier. Maybe not even a attack speed buff, only movement speed.
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Right now Ghosts are basically only used against Protoss, which is really a shame. They are not cheap, but it's not like they are ultra expensive like Carriers, to justify how little they are seen, even in the late game. It's simply you have absolutely no reason to make them against Zerg or Terran. (This effect is even stronger since EMP removes shields as well as energy, so it is hard coded into the ability to be much more effective against Protoss than against Zerg or Terran.) I would think that with the addition of the Viper's AA AoE, maybe the Ghost will see more use (complementing mass air compositions, or even just to protect Medivacs). I still think that, if things were to remain the way they are now, Ghosts will still be underused against Z and T. Maybe a buff to Snipe could change it, as typically Z and T are the races with biological units. Something like 35 + 15 damage, instead of 25 + 25 vs. psionic, or so. Then Ghosts would be pretty good against later game units like Hydras and even Ultras, and may be used more often.
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On April 04 2015 00:19 Sholip wrote: Right now Ghosts are basically only used against Protoss, which is really a shame. They are not cheap, but it's not like they are ultra expensive like Carriers, to justify how little they are seen, even in the late game. It's simply you have absolutely no reason to make them against Zerg or Terran. (This effect is even stronger since EMP removes shields as well as energy, so it is hard coded into the ability to be much more effective against Protoss than against Zerg or Terran.) I would think that with the addition of the Viper's AA AoE, maybe the Ghost will see more use (complementing mass air compositions, or even just to protect Medivacs). I still think that, if things were to remain the way they are now, Ghosts will still be underused against Z and T. Maybe a buff to Snipe could change it, as typically Z and T are the races with biological units. Something like 35 + 15 damage, instead of 25 + 25 vs. psionic, or so. Then Ghosts would be pretty good against later game units like Hydras and even Ultras, and may be used more often. Or a new ability that would actually be usefull against T or Z.
I dont think that Blizzard are willing to experiment with the Snipe-numers anymore. Closed case, kind of.
If they are intenting to keep Ultralisk in the way they are now with 8 armour, perhaps Snipe and as you say the damage is a must to make Terran Bio able to fight Ultras at all. As of now, you need like 100 Marines firing 5 times a an Ultralisk to kill it?
Feel logical that the Terran Special support unit should be able to help there. If not snipe (as I wrote, I dont think that will happend) so atleast with some other spell that can make a difference.
I mean, it was weird that Marine + Marauder could combat Zergs super-unit, however, it is as weird that the strongest, most expensive "super unit" Terran Bio has it completly useless in TvZ.
Another problem with the Ghost comapred to Bio: It moves slow and is imobile compared to the stimmed bio. In TvP when you commit with Ghosts you know they are not getting out alive most of the times. If you lose the fight, there are no retreats since Blink Stalkers and Chargelots catches them really fast. Would not be a problem if the standing army was really hard to break.
High Templars of course suffer a bit of the same problem, with the difference that it is really hard to kill that deathball. Therefore I think most Terran players do not opt for the Ghost-route late game, its a one trick pony and once it looses a battle you are dead - and once you begin the battle you are commited to it if you have a high ghost number.
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In general, I am not a fan of the spellcasters in Sc2, but Ghosts are especially problematic. In my essay below, I first mention the reasons I dislike its current design, and later on I offer an idea for a new Ghost.
Some of you guys might agree with parts of it, and others might think my ideas require too much change. But this is just how I wanna see it changed;
EMP + Show Spoiler +Never have I enjoyed spamming EMPs over the protoss army and whenever I offraced I never actually thought "hey that's so fun with the Ghosts draining all of my HTs energy". My logic is that when there is nothing even remotely fun about an ability, scrap it and replace it with something else. I know we have had an EMP in Sc2 for 5 years and in BW for even longer, but right now, it's just a really boring ability and it only really works vs one race. So get rid of it and find other ways to balance terran.
Snipe + Show Spoiler +Pew Pew Pew... Yeh it sounds cool, but unfortunately that's the only cool thing about Snipe. It's a spamable ability with no countermicro and therefore it simply cannot be properly balanced. Keep the snipe sound, but reuse it in a different way, because this snipe-ability needs to be removed.
Cloak and Nuke + Show Spoiler +Unlike EMP and Snipe, there is potential here. Running around with cloaked Ghosts and nuking enemy bases or armies.... it's a kinda cool thing, and there definitely is alot of countermicro here. Perhaps even a bit, but luckily this is more of a numbers-issue than a general concept flaw.
Suggestions + Show Spoiler +Okay, so what is the role of the Ghost gonna be if it doesn't have Snipe and EMP? First of all, I wanna promote the nuke-role further. I wanna see more ghosts cloaking around the map and nuking enemy bases or zoning out the enemy army. Secondly, it does ofc need utility with the army, but rather than thinking in terms of offensive abilities, I believe the Ghost could function better if it had defensive abilities.
New Ability 1: Spellresist + Show Spoiler +The ghost can activate Spellresist and a large bubble around the Ghost appears (like Guardian Shield) and all enemy spell- and splash damage is reduced by 20-30%. Yes, this isn't a super microintensive thing, but it's not really needed here. Rather, this is a way of giving bio a way to be less glass-cannon'ish against Fungal, Ultras, Storm, Disruptors and Colossus.... without being a hardcounter/anti-micro thing. It's the kind of ability that is supposed to feel "not frustrating" while at the same time give the Ghost a clear role in the game.
New Ability 2: Defensive Matrix + Show Spoiler +Target a friendly unit and temporarily increase its HP by XXX. While Spellresist will synergize better w/ bio, Defensive Matrix works better with mech. E.g. you can make that Thor in the front slightly more tanky. If the enemy continues to focus fire it, they are in for a rough time.
New Ability 3: Nuke + Show Spoiler +So I actually spent some hours in the editor previously, and I discovered that the following changes feels the nicest: - Time it takes for Nuke to land = roughly 10-12 seconds. - Damage reduced from 300 to 175 - Splash damage changed so it oneshots workers in a much lower radius - Nuke research time reduced to 15-20 seconds (from 60 I believe) - Nuke cost reduced to 50/50 from 100/100
The effect of these changes is to make the Nuke somewhat more reliable and cost-efficient... as a zoning tool ofc. The enemy should still be able to spot it the majority of the time, but if he doesn't spot it (which is more likely to occur w/ these changes), he is not gonna lose his whole army. It's a big deal but not something that automatically is gonna result in a win.
New Ability 4: Stim + Show Spoiler +Yeh this is the most controversial suggestion probably. Some may initally say "nonono you can't do that, it's not intended to be like a Marine or Maurauder". And they are right in that its not intended to be llike that. But there are two reasons I want to see it added:
(1) Ghost needs a mobility ability to further promote cloacked harass play (2) I just hate having Ghosts w/ my army. It messes up control grups. Adding in stim makes it more simple to control bio + ghost as you can have Ghosts with your MMM in one control group.
With regards to the latter, I also know a lot of people will say that it's good to have different control groups because it (a) rewards you for splitting up your army or (b) because it increases the skillcap.
The former complaint is straight up wrong. Ghosts in Sc2 are typically really deathball'ish and pure bio is one of the most multitaskbased compositions in the game.
The second complaint is correct, however, I don't think its a fun way of increasing the skillcap. I want the game to feel easy to play while having endless micro opportunites. Micro means stuff like splitting, focus firing, pulling back injured units, casting abilites well and dropship pick-up interactions. 1a2a3a isn't micro for me, but just an annoyance.
But, don't overfocus on the stim-part here. There are other types of possilbiites. For instance it could also just be straight up faster when cloaked (instead of getting stim).
Last remarks + Show Spoiler +This Ghost will overall promote longer battles, it will work vs all races and it's not a "prevent stuff from happening" spellcaster. The intention is that you have maybe with your army for defensive matrix and spellresist, and then maybe 2-3 that you send around the map and nuke your army or perhaps use the stimmed Ghosts to snipe off workers or other isolated enemy units.
In regards to having a more damagefocussed spellcaster, I reserved that role for the Raven. Imo PDD needs a real replacement and Seeker Missile needs to be tuned as well, but that's an essay for a different day.
Tactically it also has more utility in the Nuke being more reliable at zoning out the enemy army.
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What about that spell Ultrasonic Pulse that Spectre had in the WoL campaign?
Like an EMP for biological units, you make it only affect bio and reduce the area of effect. Maybe too strong?
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On April 04 2015 00:49 JulDraGoN wrote:What about that spell Ultrasonic Pulse that Spectre had in the WoL campaign? Like an EMP for biological units, you make it only affect bio and reduce the area of effect. Maybe too strong?
Stun sucks in RTS games. Way too unforgiveable and not exciting micro.
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On April 04 2015 01:35 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2015 00:49 JulDraGoN wrote:What about that spell Ultrasonic Pulse that Spectre had in the WoL campaign? Like an EMP for biological units, you make it only affect bio and reduce the area of effect. Maybe too strong? Stun sucks in RTS games. Way too unforgiveable and not exciting micro.
I assume you don't like the Infestor then?^^ But since you like "zoning out" I may guess you think the Ravager is fine?
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I'd like to see the costs changed, 200 minerals is kinda harsh since Terran Armies are Mineral-based.
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What if EMP had additional effects? As in a debuff that removed effects such as movement speed on creep, or increased attack from stimpacks? Of course a lot of things would have to be modified, including the name EMP.
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On April 04 2015 01:59 plotspot wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2015 01:35 Hider wrote:On April 04 2015 00:49 JulDraGoN wrote:What about that spell Ultrasonic Pulse that Spectre had in the WoL campaign? Like an EMP for biological units, you make it only affect bio and reduce the area of effect. Maybe too strong? Stun sucks in RTS games. Way too unforgiveable and not exciting micro. I assume you don't like the Infestor then?^^ But since you like "zoning out" I may guess you think the Ravager is fine?
WOL infestor has 0 countermicro (fungal was most lame ability ever). HOTS infestor is marginally better. Ravager skillshot is awesome but I think the unit need tweaks in different ways.
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On April 04 2015 00:00 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2015 23:04 Pr0wler wrote: The role of the ghost in LOTV will be to shut down the only viable AoE damage of the protoss in TvP(that is after the colossus nerfs). You can always use it against Vipers too... Just until now, nobody really bothered to build vipers against terran. "Only viable". You forgot the disruptor? Or are you suggesting that you found a way to use the ghost vs an invincible moving ball of death ;D? I don't think that the disruptor will be really good against terran bio. The terran units are just too mobile. Any competent player will be able to just walk out of the way of the disruptor and then kill it.... 300 gas down the drain.
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I think a cool idea to make snipe more micro-intensive and reactive is to make it a buffered ability that gets charged up. My idea is that the terran user casts snipe onto a point, and the ghost takes 2-3 seconds to focus. While focusing, a red line appears indicating the path of the snipe shot. This makes it cool because its now dodgeable and the terran user will have to predict or cut-off unit movement to guarantee a hit. Also make the shot a projectile so that it stops on the first unit this hits. Or maybe give it a splash effect as well. This makes positional play more exciting (protoss players will try to protect their HTs by keeping them in the back / surrounded in the middle of their army). Of course, we would have to buff the damage and energy costs to make it worth it now.
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On April 03 2015 23:04 Pr0wler wrote: The role of the ghost in LOTV will be to shut down the only viable AoE damage of the protoss in TvP(that is after the colossus nerfs). You can always use it against Vipers too... Just until now, nobody really bothered to build vipers against terran. Vipers outrange Ghosts by a huge margin.
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On April 04 2015 02:12 Xyik wrote: I think a cool idea to make snipe more micro-intensive and reactive is to make it a buffered ability that gets charged up. My idea is that the terran user casts snipe onto a point, and the ghost takes 2-3 seconds to focus. While focusing, a red line appears indicating the path of the snipe shot. This makes it cool because its now dodgeable and the terran user will have to predict or cut-off unit movement to guarantee a hit. Also make the shot a projectile so that it stops on the first unit this hits. Or maybe give it a splash effect as well. This makes positional play more exciting (protoss players will try to protect their HTs by keeping them in the back / surrounded in the middle of their army). Of course, we would have to buff the damage and energy costs to make it worth it now.
I don't know how this would work, but I wanna requote anyone who suggests abilities w/ countermicro and how it interacts with the enemy.
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On April 04 2015 02:16 boxerfred wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2015 23:04 Pr0wler wrote: The role of the ghost in LOTV will be to shut down the only viable AoE damage of the protoss in TvP(that is after the colossus nerfs). You can always use it against Vipers too... Just until now, nobody really bothered to build vipers against terran. Vipers outrange Ghosts by a huge margin. EMP range - 10 Snipe range - 10 Abduct range - 9 Source : Liquipedia.
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Along with experimenting with adjusting the numbers associated with the ghost, the emp could gain a silence effect that prevents units from using certain abilities for a short time. In the case of the disrupter it would not cancel the effect but prevent it from activating for a short time if it is hit with an emp first. Another possibiltiy could be to provide emp with a short knockback effect. The name for Emp should probably be changed if it gets these effects
I also like the idea of the ghost being able to call in a 'drop pod'.
The ghost academy gets another upgrade that allows units to load into it and the ghost can call in a drop much like they call in a nuclear strike but perhaps with a shorter delay.
The 'drop pod' could itself be a new unit, of course also available without requiring the ghost to call it in, that would just be an extra ability. I think there would be a lot of potential with that. Perhaps some kind of transport/combat engineer with its own abilities.
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My suggestion is that when ghost do "hold fire" and holster their rifle, they move faster.
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Are nukes the same in LotV ? because they aren't as exciting as they were in BW (meaning they tickle base in SC2).
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On April 04 2015 03:45 FFW_Rude wrote: Are nukes the same in LotV ? because they aren't as exciting as they were in BW (meaning they tickle base in SC2). I think they're used more in sc2 than brood war though, because broodwar nukes were 6 supply.
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United States12180 Posts
I think EMP is probably okay as-is. It's not great, but it's not very problematic or boring either.
I never liked Snipe. I'd rather see something like a Gravity Bomb (or a Psi Emitter if we want it to be anti-bio only, like Snipe) that sucks all ground units in a small AoE to a central location for a fraction of a second. Something with about the same AoE as a Psi Storm, which is instant, which just moves units in the AoE to its center point. Like a Dark Seer Vacuum. Want to keep Zerglings away from your Tanks? Position the AoE so that you move only the lings away. See a deathball? Hit the AoE in the center and drop a Siege Mode Tank for max zero-point splash damage. Enemy Templar raining down Storms from high ground? Hit the AoE on the low ground and drag them down to your units.
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I honestly can't remember the last time I saw a nuke in a pro game. That needs to change
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What would happen if the ghost had stim?
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On April 04 2015 03:48 royalroadweed wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2015 03:45 FFW_Rude wrote: Are nukes the same in LotV ? because they aren't as exciting as they were in BW (meaning they tickle base in SC2). I think they're used more in sc2 than brood war though, because broodwar nukes were 6 supply.
Nukes were rare but awesome... (Remember Boxer's nexus snipes with blind observers ?) In SC2 nukes are rare and not awesome
Hope they'll twitch them somehow. Could be something more usefull for ghosts.
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On April 04 2015 05:00 FFW_Rude wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2015 03:48 royalroadweed wrote:On April 04 2015 03:45 FFW_Rude wrote: Are nukes the same in LotV ? because they aren't as exciting as they were in BW (meaning they tickle base in SC2). I think they're used more in sc2 than brood war though, because broodwar nukes were 6 supply. Nukes were rare but awesome... (Remember Boxer's nexus snipes with blind observers ?) In SC2 nukes are rare and not awesome Hope they'll twitch them somehow. Could be something more usefull for ghosts.
But a lot rarer in BW. Nukes were used numerous time in SC2.
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On April 04 2015 03:35 royalroadweed wrote: My suggestion is that when ghost do "hold fire" and holster their rifle, they move faster.
This is the coolest suggestion I've seen thus far. +1 for this.
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My own suggestions:
Snipe (might need to change the name on this since it's not really a snipe anymore)
- Energy cost increased from 25 -> 75
- Damage increased from 25 (+25 to Psionic) -> 75
- Ground only. Cannot hit revealed burrowed units.
- Snipe now does aoe line damage extending up to a range of 10.
When activated it should have increased sensitivity making it difficult to aim. Also emits a red laser to allow the opponent to dodge, similar to how nukes show a tiny dot.
EMP
- Make this a projectile similar to fungal growth.
Nukes
- Arm silo increased from 1-> 2 nukes per academy
- Damage reduced from 300 (+200 to buildings) -> 150 (+100 to buildings)
- Nukes now leave behind a fallout aoe with a duration of 15 sec. Biological units take 10 damage/sec while in range.
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Imaginary Patch Notes: The Ghost's Attack Damage has been changed from 10(+10 vs light) to 10(+10 vs biological) This does not change the ghost's damage output against most protoss ground units. Indeed the only units affected are the phoenix, the oracle and the interceptor which will receive less damage in the future. However, we hope to see more ghost usage against zerg in the future with this change. This still should not make the ghost a costefficient fighter against zerg on its own, but in lategame situations in which zerg can bring many spellcasters such as the infestor or the viper the investment for ghosts has been very high given that the unit was very weak in combat all around.
The Snipe ability has been reworked now dealing 50 damage ignoring armor. The target requirements have been changed from biological to ground. If a targeted unit moves during the snipes 0.5second channeling duration the snipe will miss the target and deal no damage at all. A sound effect for a missed shot has been added. Previously snipe has been mainly used against high templar in the PvT matchup. But it overlaps in that purpose with the EMP ability of the ghost. To make snipe more powerful the damage was severely increased and can now be used on all ground targets. However, it cannot be used on moving units efficiently and opponents who pay attention when ghost are close. This should make the snipe very powerful in combination with its cloak ability to infiltrate enemy territory and quickly take out unmicroed targets while keeping it unreliable as a spamable ability to snipe whole armies when they are being controlled.
In summary: the ghosts keeps its splash support vs Protoss shields with EMP the ghosts stays a great antispellcaster unit through EMP, but loses its ability to snipe moving units during a battle snipe can now heavily punish a player that loses track of the ghost's position the ghost overall is a slightly better combat unit against zerg
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What if they were to remove snipe and give the ghost lockdown while moving emp over to raven?
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On April 04 2015 03:55 Tiaraju9 wrote: What would happen if the ghost had stim?
ppl wud rage if that was a case
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Sweden33719 Posts
On April 04 2015 00:44 Hider wrote:In general, I am not a fan of the spellcasters in Sc2, but Ghosts are especially problematic. In my essay below, I first mention the reasons I dislike its current design, and later on I offer an idea for a new Ghost. Some of you guys might agree with parts of it, and others might think my ideas require too much change. But this is just how I wanna see it changed; EMP+ Show Spoiler +Never have I enjoyed spamming EMPs over the protoss army and whenever I offraced I never actually thought "hey that's so fun with the Ghosts draining all of my HTs energy". My logic is that when there is nothing even remotely fun about an ability, scrap it and replace it with something else. I know we have had an EMP in Sc2 for 5 years and in BW for even longer, but right now, it's just a really boring ability and it only really works vs one race. So get rid of it and find other ways to balance terran. Snipe+ Show Spoiler +Pew Pew Pew... Yeh it sounds cool, but unfortunately that's the only cool thing about Snipe. It's a spamable ability with no countermicro and therefore it simply cannot be properly balanced. Keep the snipe sound, but reuse it in a different way, because this snipe-ability needs to be removed.
Cloak and Nuke+ Show Spoiler +Unlike EMP and Snipe, there is potential here. Running around with cloaked Ghosts and nuking enemy bases or armies.... it's a kinda cool thing, and there definitely is alot of countermicro here. Perhaps even a bit, but luckily this is more of a numbers-issue than a general concept flaw.
Suggestions+ Show Spoiler +Okay, so what is the role of the Ghost gonna be if it doesn't have Snipe and EMP? First of all, I wanna promote the nuke-role further. I wanna see more ghosts cloaking around the map and nuking enemy bases or zoning out the enemy army. Secondly, it does ofc need utility with the army, but rather than thinking in terms of offensive abilities, I believe the Ghost could function better if it had defensive abilities.
New Ability 1: Spellresist+ Show Spoiler +The ghost can activate Spellresist and a large bubble around the Ghost appears (like Guardian Shield) and all enemy spell- and splash damage is reduced by 20-30%. Yes, this isn't a super microintensive thing, but it's not really needed here. Rather, this is a way of giving bio a way to be less glass-cannon'ish against Fungal, Ultras, Storm, Disruptors and Colossus.... without being a hardcounter/anti-micro thing. It's the kind of ability that is supposed to feel "not frustrating" while at the same time give the Ghost a clear role in the game. New Ability 2: Defensive Matrix+ Show Spoiler +Target a friendly unit and temporarily increase its HP by XXX. While Spellresist will synergize better w/ bio, Defensive Matrix works better with mech. E.g. you can make that Thor in the front slightly more tanky. If the enemy continues to focus fire it, they are in for a rough time. New Ability 3: Nuke+ Show Spoiler +So I actually spent some hours in the editor previously, and I discovered that the following changes feels the nicest: - Time it takes for Nuke to land = roughly 10-12 seconds. - Damage reduced from 300 to 175 - Splash damage changed so it oneshots workers in a much lower radius - Nuke research time reduced to 15-20 seconds (from 60 I believe) - Nuke cost reduced to 50/50 from 100/100
The effect of these changes is to make the Nuke somewhat more reliable and cost-efficient... as a zoning tool ofc. The enemy should still be able to spot it the majority of the time, but if he doesn't spot it (which is more likely to occur w/ these changes), he is not gonna lose his whole army. It's a big deal but not something that automatically is gonna result in a win. New Ability 4: Stim+ Show Spoiler +Yeh this is the most controversial suggestion probably. Some may initally say "nonono you can't do that, it's not intended to be like a Marine or Maurauder". And they are right in that its not intended to be llike that. But there are two reasons I want to see it added:
(1) Ghost needs a mobility ability to further promote cloacked harass play (2) I just hate having Ghosts w/ my army. It messes up control grups. Adding in stim makes it more simple to control bio + ghost as you can have Ghosts with your MMM in one control group.
With regards to the latter, I also know a lot of people will say that it's good to have different control groups because it (a) rewards you for splitting up your army or (b) because it increases the skillcap.
The former complaint is straight up wrong. Ghosts in Sc2 are typically really deathball'ish and pure bio is one of the most multitaskbased compositions in the game.
The second complaint is correct, however, I don't think its a fun way of increasing the skillcap. I want the game to feel easy to play while having endless micro opportunites. Micro means stuff like splitting, focus firing, pulling back injured units, casting abilites well and dropship pick-up interactions. 1a2a3a isn't micro for me, but just an annoyance.
But, don't overfocus on the stim-part here. There are other types of possilbiites. For instance it could also just be straight up faster when cloaked (instead of getting stim). Last remarks+ Show Spoiler +This Ghost will overall promote longer battles, it will work vs all races and it's not a "prevent stuff from happening" spellcaster. The intention is that you have maybe with your army for defensive matrix and spellresist, and then maybe 2-3 that you send around the map and nuke your army or perhaps use the stimmed Ghosts to snipe off workers or other isolated enemy units.
In regards to having a more damagefocussed spellcaster, I reserved that role for the Raven. Imo PDD needs a real replacement and Seeker Missile needs to be tuned as well, but that's an essay for a different day.
Tactically it also has more utility in the Nuke being more reliable at zoning out the enemy army.
Not a big fan of the proposed new abilities, I think they are a bit too passive, while I feel the ghost should be more of an independent toolbox... The ghost is like an assassin/spy archetype, while those abilities feel more like they'd fit a medic or something.
People who suggested reworks to snipe where it can be blocked by interceding units, maybe that could work (a la Caitlyn's ult in LoL, and I'm sure some dota character as well originally ), though I think it would need an even bigger range in that case (maybe work like a siege tank where it has longer range than it has vision so you can benefit from scanning and long distance snipe).
On April 04 2015 11:03 CrazyBread92 wrote: What if they were to remove snipe and give the ghost lockdown while moving emp over to raven? Lockdown is interesting and would help terran against warp prism harass a LOT I think. Bit worried it'd be too strong vs disruptors, although I guess it would create counter micro at least.
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On April 04 2015 07:47 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2015 03:35 royalroadweed wrote: My suggestion is that when ghost do "hold fire" and holster their rifle, they move faster. This is the coolest suggestion I've seen thus far. +1 for this. == My own suggestions: Snipe (might need to change the name on this since it's not really a snipe anymore) - Energy cost increased from 25 -> 75 - Damage increased from 25 (+25 to Psionic) -> 75 - Ground only. Cannot hit revealed burrowed units. - Snipe now does aoe line damage extending up to a range of 10. When activated it should have increased sensitivity making it difficult to aim. Also emits a red laser to allow the opponent to dodge, similar to how nukes show a tiny dot. EMP- Make this a projectile similar to fungal growth. Nukes- Arm silo increased from 1-> 2 nukes per academy - Damage reduced from 300 (+200 to buildings) -> 150 (+100 to buildings) - Nukes now leave behind a fallout aoe with a duration of 15 sec. Biological units take 10 damage/sec while in range.
I like the snipe suggestion here. Maybe snipe could be though as something like personal railgun.. not so spammable, but with proper position and micro a really powerfull skillshot. Combined with maybe stim and cloack you could get awesome flanking with this kind of ability..
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I like the snipe suggestion here. Maybe snipe could be though as something like personal railgun.. not so spammable, but with proper position and micro a really powerfull skillshot. Combined with maybe stim and cloack you could get awesome flanking with this kind of ability..
Yeh I always wondered why Sc2 didn't have any line-skillshots in the game. Its a unique type of micro that Blizzard has completely ignored and instead has added more click-and-spam stuff into the game.
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I really think the ghost needs a change. With the direction LOTV is headed in I really don't see too many scenarios in which you would build ghosts. Snipe is a beautiful ability but only if there are viable targets and right now there is only one unit in the game against which it is really useful.
On April 04 2015 18:25 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +I like the snipe suggestion here. Maybe snipe could be though as something like personal railgun.. not so spammable, but with proper position and micro a really powerfull skillshot. Combined with maybe stim and cloack you could get awesome flanking with this kind of ability.. Yeh I always wondered why Sc2 didn't have any line-skillshots in the game. Its a unique type of micro that Blizzard has completely ignored and instead has added more click-and-spam stuff into the game.
I think there is way more specific micro and anti micro involved with snipe than with a line based skill shot but we only really have those interactions in TvP with templars. In hindsight it was a really good change that blizzard nerfed snipe against most units but they didn't really bother to make it meaningful outside of tvp.
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On April 04 2015 18:25 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +I like the snipe suggestion here. Maybe snipe could be though as something like personal railgun.. not so spammable, but with proper position and micro a really powerfull skillshot. Combined with maybe stim and cloack you could get awesome flanking with this kind of ability.. Yeh I always wondered why Sc2 didn't have any line-skillshots in the game. Its a unique type of micro that Blizzard has completely ignored and instead has added more click-and-spam stuff into the game.
I think Hellions count as line skill shots, collosus also to a certain extent.
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I have thought about making ghost "the siegetank" meaning it can "sit" and therefore have a long range but only shoot where it aims(aka 90degrees).
So to be clear: If you sit the ghost down and aim north, you can only shoot north 90degrees. If an enemy attacks from behind, the ghost cant do anything.
Could see something like this potentially be cool. Not necessarily on the ghost tho but maybe a new unit. I think this could promote a new type of micro vs micro which isnt seen yet. Could be fun i guess.
Any fast thoughts about it? Sounds like shit? Comment please.
EDIT: Something i have dreamt about is marauder opening becoming viable again in Lotv but with micro for both sides(maybe remove the slow is needed) and than for terran to add a ghost academy at home and make some ghosts. Maybe they could be decent vs oracles for example and than work vs ground units decent to.
A new style of play. Anyway. Thats it for now.
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I think Hellions count as line skill shots, collosus also to a certain extent.
So to clarify, when i talk about skillshots its abilities that can be fully dodged (not auto-attacks).
I think there is way more specific micro and anti micro involved with snipe than with a line based skill shot but we only really have those interactions in TvP with templars. In hindsight it was a really good change that blizzard nerfed snipe against most units but they didn't really bother to make it meaningful outside of tvp.
I always felt the Ghost vs protoss was incredibly boring and you just kinda danced around with big armies without actually engaging. I much rather have abilites that have countermicro potential during engagements than these small dances that only serve to delay/prevent engagements from happening in the first place.
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So I guess you can change the snipe to the penetrator round used by raynor in the campaign?
Something that works similar to penetrator round but - Opponent can see when the penetrator round is going to fire - Only passes through light units, stopped by armored units (they take reduced damage instead) so any units behind armored units won't take damage - Or can be changed such that it passes through biological units, but gets blocked by mechanical units but this will make it another anti-zerg ability - High energy usage (around 75-100)? Damage can be balanced around it - Passes through any units in range 10 or when it hits an armored unit first
This might have interesting interactions, now its not only about dodging the shots but also about positioning of the units. Now you can use ghost + cloak to go around harrassing bases effectively in late game(single shot can possibly destroy worker lines), and might see potential usage in engagements.
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On April 04 2015 21:21 Estancia wrote: So I guess you can change the snipe to the penetrator round used by raynor in the campaign?
Something that works similar to penetrator round but - Opponent can see when the penetrator round is going to fire - Only passes through light units, stopped by armored units (they take reduced damage instead) so any units behind armored units won't take damage - Or can be changed such that it passes through biological units, but gets blocked by mechanical units but this will make it another anti-zerg ability - High energy usage (around 75-100)? Damage can be balanced around it - Passes through any units in range 10 or when it hits an armored unit first
This might have interesting interactions, now its not only about dodging the shots but also about positioning of the units. Now you can use ghost + cloak to go around harrassing bases effectively in late game(single shot can possibly destroy worker lines), and might see potential usage in engagements. I like this a lot. Then you would be forced to position your tanky armored units to protect your weaker ones even more. I think, though, the way you described it, it would be incredibly strong against ling-bane compositons, but it definitely has potential.
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The lineshot could be very very powerful though, terran already has so much splash damage.
What if Ghost attacks would just ingore armour? Their shots always do full damage or something, it wouldn't make rushing a ghost for some special effect an issue, but they would be very strong late game.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On April 04 2015 20:58 Foxxan wrote: I have thought about making ghost "the siegetank" meaning it can "sit" and therefore have a long range but only shoot where it aims(aka 90degrees).
So to be clear: If you sit the ghost down and aim north, you can only shoot north 90degrees. If an enemy attacks from behind, the ghost cant do anything.
Could see something like this potentially be cool. Not necessarily on the ghost tho but maybe a new unit. I think this could promote a new type of micro vs micro which isnt seen yet. Could be fun i guess.
Any fast thoughts about it? Sounds like shit? Comment please.
EDIT: Something i have dreamt about is marauder opening becoming viable again in Lotv but with micro for both sides(maybe remove the slow is needed) and than for terran to add a ghost academy at home and make some ghosts. Maybe they could be decent vs oracles for example and than work vs ground units decent to.
A new style of play. Anyway. Thats it for now.
That's a cool idea, doesn't sound like it would fit into HotS terran, but HotS isnt LotV, and even if it doesn't end up fitting its still a cool idea
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In WoL ghotsts were imbalanced. An army of them could snipe down a horde of ultraliskts before they could even reach them. I like what blizzard did, reducing the bio damage but increasing the psionic damage. They are good for sniping infestors (which we hardly see nowadyas) and vipers.
An EMP is always nice too. Drop 2 ghots, cloak them and emp queens so that zerg will have to struggle with getting larvas. Nuke is an awesome ability, and I wished we could see it more. I think ghosts might need a smaller cut on their price and people would start using them again. Let's say they could cost 100/100.
Edit: Lockdown?
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They should make nukes more affordable imo. Ghosts already can work well as anti-spellcasters, but once the opponent has no more spellcasters, they should have some other utility as well.
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On April 04 2015 21:49 Sholip wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2015 21:21 Estancia wrote: So I guess you can change the snipe to the penetrator round used by raynor in the campaign?
Something that works similar to penetrator round but - Opponent can see when the penetrator round is going to fire - Only passes through light units, stopped by armored units (they take reduced damage instead) so any units behind armored units won't take damage - Or can be changed such that it passes through biological units, but gets blocked by mechanical units but this will make it another anti-zerg ability - High energy usage (around 75-100)? Damage can be balanced around it - Passes through any units in range 10 or when it hits an armored unit first
This might have interesting interactions, now its not only about dodging the shots but also about positioning of the units. Now you can use ghost + cloak to go around harrassing bases effectively in late game(single shot can possibly destroy worker lines), and might see potential usage in engagements. I like this a lot. Then you would be forced to position your tanky armored units to protect your weaker ones even more. I think, though, the way you described it, it would be incredibly strong against ling-bane compositons, but it definitely has potential.
I don't think terran will be able to get enough ghosts against a ling bling muta army in early mid game, and in small amounts speedlings and banelings which are fast shouldn't have trouble dodging snipes. Or this may encourage zergs to add in small amounts of roaches to counter the snipes in mid game, and in late game adding in ultralisks will hard counter this ability because its armored, large and therefore can protect the lings, blings and hydras from the penetrator rounds. Then again ghosts can reposition themselves to fire at a better angle, etc.
Protoss shouldn't have much problem, especially with blink as you can sacrifice a stalker to save your line of zealots. It can be used against high templars too, in which case the warp prism will come in handy, or some decent split should do.
If it is too powerful mid game you can always make it a researchable ability.
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Heres my thoughs on the Ghost: 1) Snipe is one of the most boring abilities in the game. It is only really useful against psionic bio units (HT, Infestor, Viper, Ghost) because of low damage against anything else. And against spellcasters you can just as well use EMP.
2) EMP is an okay ability but hard to balance. Against Terran and Zerg you hardly ever need splash anti spellcaster abilities except if somebody was massing raven / banshee. Against Protoss its very powerful. We could just remove the shield draining effect and make EMP drain all energy, then remove Snipe.
3) Nukes are costly, hardly ever hit, and require a micro and preparation. I would replace it with the following ability: Remote Controlled Detonation Charge Each ghosts comes trained with 1 of these bombs equiped. It can be placed on the ground (melee range), placing the charge and arming it takes 10 seconds. After the charge is placed the ghost can remotely detonate it at any point in time to deal area of effect damage. Charges are invisible units and can be destroyed if attacked. This ability is kinda similar to nukes but more useful in my opinion. You can use them as mines and lure enemies within it. But only if the enemy does not have a detector with his army. You can also use them better for harassment by pre-placing them somewhere and waiting for workers to come by, perhaps when dropping one mineral line you can place such a charge at the other mineral line to kill more workers at once.
4) To make the ghost a more useful attack unit I would buff their attack range and damage. They are snipers, so give them a high attack range, like 9 or even 10.
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For everyone wanting Lockdown back. Back in WoL everyone whined about fungle growth, because it's easy to land, has 0 counter play and locks you in place. Hmm... Isn't that exatcly what lockdown is ? Even worse. It's a single target, point and click spell that can be used on the most expensive units with even less counter play. So yeah, please no Lockdown.
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On April 05 2015 00:41 Pr0wler wrote: For everyone wanting Lockdown back. Back in WoL everyone whined about fungle growth, because it's easy to land, has 0 counter play and locks you in place. Hmm... Isn't that exatcly what lockdown is ? Even worse. It's a single target, point and click spell that can be used on the most expensive units with even less counter play. So yeah, please no Lockdown. How is lockdown even worse than wol fungal growth? Its single target, doesn't deal damage, only affect mechanical units and needs to be researched. As opposed to fungal growth which is aoe, deals damage, affects everything and comes free.
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Dont forget, ghosts are hightech in broodwar where as infestors are "low" tech.
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On April 05 2015 01:17 royalroadweed wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2015 00:41 Pr0wler wrote: For everyone wanting Lockdown back. Back in WoL everyone whined about fungle growth, because it's easy to land, has 0 counter play and locks you in place. Hmm... Isn't that exatcly what lockdown is ? Even worse. It's a single target, point and click spell that can be used on the most expensive units with even less counter play. So yeah, please no Lockdown. How is lockdown even worse than wol fungal growth? Its single target, doesn't deal damage, only affect mechanical units and needs to be researched. As opposed to fungal growth which is aoe, deals damage, affects everything and comes free. It may be more expensive to get, but has the same properties that everyone hated about fungle. Locks down units with 0 counter play. Vortex was expensive to get too, but again EVERYONE hated it, because it had no counter play. Spells like Lockdown are just dumb and not exciting... Point, click, now this unit is dead. As I said, please no.
I said that Lockdown is worse than fungle in the sense that it's even easier to use, because its point and click.
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On April 05 2015 01:42 Pr0wler wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2015 01:17 royalroadweed wrote:On April 05 2015 00:41 Pr0wler wrote: For everyone wanting Lockdown back. Back in WoL everyone whined about fungle growth, because it's easy to land, has 0 counter play and locks you in place. Hmm... Isn't that exatcly what lockdown is ? Even worse. It's a single target, point and click spell that can be used on the most expensive units with even less counter play. So yeah, please no Lockdown. How is lockdown even worse than wol fungal growth? Its single target, doesn't deal damage, only affect mechanical units and needs to be researched. As opposed to fungal growth which is aoe, deals damage, affects everything and comes free. It may be more expensive to get, but has the same properties that everyone hated about fungle. Locks down units with 0 counter play. Vortex was expensive to get too, but again EVERYONE hated it, because it had no counter play. Spells like Lockdown are just dumb and not exciting... Point, click, now this unit is dead. As I said, please no. I said that Lockdown is worse than fungle in the sense that it's even easier to use, because its point and click. Wol fungal is point and click too. Fungal also locked down entire armies. Lockdown is best used on a high priority unit. It also doesn't have to be instant. Starbow's version works like seeker missile where you can pull a unit back to escape its range..
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On April 05 2015 01:58 royalroadweed wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2015 01:42 Pr0wler wrote:On April 05 2015 01:17 royalroadweed wrote:On April 05 2015 00:41 Pr0wler wrote: For everyone wanting Lockdown back. Back in WoL everyone whined about fungle growth, because it's easy to land, has 0 counter play and locks you in place. Hmm... Isn't that exatcly what lockdown is ? Even worse. It's a single target, point and click spell that can be used on the most expensive units with even less counter play. So yeah, please no Lockdown. How is lockdown even worse than wol fungal growth? Its single target, doesn't deal damage, only affect mechanical units and needs to be researched. As opposed to fungal growth which is aoe, deals damage, affects everything and comes free. It may be more expensive to get, but has the same properties that everyone hated about fungle. Locks down units with 0 counter play. Vortex was expensive to get too, but again EVERYONE hated it, because it had no counter play. Spells like Lockdown are just dumb and not exciting... Point, click, now this unit is dead. As I said, please no. I said that Lockdown is worse than fungle in the sense that it's even easier to use, because its point and click. Wol fungal is point and click too. Fungal also locked down entire armies. Lockdown is best used on a high priority unit. It also doesn't have to be instant. Starbow's version works like seeker missile where you can pull a unit back to escape its range.. Fungle was not point and click. It was instant AoE spell. A point and click spell can be casted on a target without being in range. As long as the targeted unit doesn't go invisible and the ghost catches up ot it, the spell will hit. At least fungle in WoL forced you to be in range for the cast. I think we have enough "locking down" spells in the game. I'm sure that the humans can be more creative than that.
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On April 05 2015 01:42 Pr0wler wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2015 01:17 royalroadweed wrote:On April 05 2015 00:41 Pr0wler wrote: For everyone wanting Lockdown back. Back in WoL everyone whined about fungle growth, because it's easy to land, has 0 counter play and locks you in place. Hmm... Isn't that exatcly what lockdown is ? Even worse. It's a single target, point and click spell that can be used on the most expensive units with even less counter play. So yeah, please no Lockdown. How is lockdown even worse than wol fungal growth? Its single target, doesn't deal damage, only affect mechanical units and needs to be researched. As opposed to fungal growth which is aoe, deals damage, affects everything and comes free. It may be more expensive to get, but has the same properties that everyone hated about fungle. Locks down units with 0 counter play. Vortex was expensive to get too, but again EVERYONE hated it, because it had no counter play. Spells like Lockdown are just dumb and not exciting... Point, click, now this unit is dead. As I said, please no. I said that Lockdown is worse than fungle in the sense that it's even easier to use, because its point and click.
Possible Counterplays:
Blink away, load into a dropship, feedback, make disruptor "invulnerable".
Counterplay to fungal: Error 404 file not found.
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On April 05 2015 02:09 Pr0wler wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2015 01:58 royalroadweed wrote:On April 05 2015 01:42 Pr0wler wrote:On April 05 2015 01:17 royalroadweed wrote:On April 05 2015 00:41 Pr0wler wrote: For everyone wanting Lockdown back. Back in WoL everyone whined about fungle growth, because it's easy to land, has 0 counter play and locks you in place. Hmm... Isn't that exatcly what lockdown is ? Even worse. It's a single target, point and click spell that can be used on the most expensive units with even less counter play. So yeah, please no Lockdown. How is lockdown even worse than wol fungal growth? Its single target, doesn't deal damage, only affect mechanical units and needs to be researched. As opposed to fungal growth which is aoe, deals damage, affects everything and comes free. It may be more expensive to get, but has the same properties that everyone hated about fungle. Locks down units with 0 counter play. Vortex was expensive to get too, but again EVERYONE hated it, because it had no counter play. Spells like Lockdown are just dumb and not exciting... Point, click, now this unit is dead. As I said, please no. I said that Lockdown is worse than fungle in the sense that it's even easier to use, because its point and click. Wol fungal is point and click too. Fungal also locked down entire armies. Lockdown is best used on a high priority unit. It also doesn't have to be instant. Starbow's version works like seeker missile where you can pull a unit back to escape its range.. Fungle was not point and click. It was instant AoE spell. A point and click spell can be casted on a target without being in range. As long as the targeted unit doesn't go invisible and the ghost catches up ot it, the spell will hit. At least fungle in WoL forced you to be in range for the cast. I think we have enough "locking down" spells in the game. I'm sure that the humans can be more creative than that. In that case, lockdown isn't point and click. Its has 8 range. Fungal growth had 9 in wol.
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On April 05 2015 02:10 404AlphaSquad wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2015 01:42 Pr0wler wrote:On April 05 2015 01:17 royalroadweed wrote:On April 05 2015 00:41 Pr0wler wrote: For everyone wanting Lockdown back. Back in WoL everyone whined about fungle growth, because it's easy to land, has 0 counter play and locks you in place. Hmm... Isn't that exatcly what lockdown is ? Even worse. It's a single target, point and click spell that can be used on the most expensive units with even less counter play. So yeah, please no Lockdown. How is lockdown even worse than wol fungal growth? Its single target, doesn't deal damage, only affect mechanical units and needs to be researched. As opposed to fungal growth which is aoe, deals damage, affects everything and comes free. It may be more expensive to get, but has the same properties that everyone hated about fungle. Locks down units with 0 counter play. Vortex was expensive to get too, but again EVERYONE hated it, because it had no counter play. Spells like Lockdown are just dumb and not exciting... Point, click, now this unit is dead. As I said, please no. I said that Lockdown is worse than fungle in the sense that it's even easier to use, because its point and click. Possible Counterplays: Blink away, load into a dropship, feedback, make disruptor "invulnerable". Counterplay to fungal: Error 404 file not found. It's funny that you are saying that feedback is a counter to lockdown, but it's not a counter to fungle... Also situational counterplays to fungle were - snipe, EMP, siege tanks. But that is not even the point.
On April 05 2015 02:17 royalroadweed wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2015 02:09 Pr0wler wrote:On April 05 2015 01:58 royalroadweed wrote:On April 05 2015 01:42 Pr0wler wrote:On April 05 2015 01:17 royalroadweed wrote:On April 05 2015 00:41 Pr0wler wrote: For everyone wanting Lockdown back. Back in WoL everyone whined about fungle growth, because it's easy to land, has 0 counter play and locks you in place. Hmm... Isn't that exatcly what lockdown is ? Even worse. It's a single target, point and click spell that can be used on the most expensive units with even less counter play. So yeah, please no Lockdown. How is lockdown even worse than wol fungal growth? Its single target, doesn't deal damage, only affect mechanical units and needs to be researched. As opposed to fungal growth which is aoe, deals damage, affects everything and comes free. It may be more expensive to get, but has the same properties that everyone hated about fungle. Locks down units with 0 counter play. Vortex was expensive to get too, but again EVERYONE hated it, because it had no counter play. Spells like Lockdown are just dumb and not exciting... Point, click, now this unit is dead. As I said, please no. I said that Lockdown is worse than fungle in the sense that it's even easier to use, because its point and click. Wol fungal is point and click too. Fungal also locked down entire armies. Lockdown is best used on a high priority unit. It also doesn't have to be instant. Starbow's version works like seeker missile where you can pull a unit back to escape its range.. Fungle was not point and click. It was instant AoE spell. A point and click spell can be casted on a target without being in range. As long as the targeted unit doesn't go invisible and the ghost catches up ot it, the spell will hit. At least fungle in WoL forced you to be in range for the cast. I think we have enough "locking down" spells in the game. I'm sure that the humans can be more creative than that. In that case, lockdown isn't point and click. Its has 8 range. Fungal growth had 9 in wol. It's, as I said, single target point and click spell. IMO the worst of all spells. Hotkey, click on unit, watch it happen.
Let's not turn this discussion into "fungle vs lockdown" one. As I said, lockdown spells like Fungle Growth, Lockdown, Maelstrom and others are in my opinion dumb and not exciting. I hope that I will never see such spell making it into the game.
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Concept: unarmored assassin/special forces unit with psychic abilities. Ideal for special tactics and hit & run guerrilla operations.
(...)unarmored (...) with psychic abilities hp: 25. shields: 50
He's unarmored, so why more hp than a marine? Shields shows his psychic abilities are giving him durability. Because shields regenerate he can hit & run easier. Why should our assassin be a tank?
(...)assassin (...) ideal for hit & run guerrilla operations Remove snipe Ground/air attack damage 10 (unchanged) Damage vs light/psionic 40 (doubled from 20 previously, can't one-shot workers) Attack speed halved special attack vs psionic: stuns target for 1 second cumulative (assassin), and has feedback effect for 10 or 20 points. Costs energy per shot automatically.
Snipe is annoying to spam. We don't need so many activated abilities that do nothing but bonus damage. This weakens ghosts vs non-targets, and gives them good bust damage for hit & run. Note that these stats make it a lousy choice in a deathball for its cost.
psychic abilities (...) for special tactics -EMP removed (give it back to the science vessel/raven instead)
-cloak has set duration and cost, instead of being continuous. See banshees in Starbow for comparison.
-Mark: aoe attack, all psionic units hit become visible to the ghost units at double the normal range. Ghosts gain increased attack range vs these units for the duration. Effect lasts 20 seconds.
-C4: plant a cloaked bomb on a structure that detonates as the next unit is produced, damaging both. Detectable and killable. Or... let them plant a cloaked/killable nuke :D
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There is 3 changes I would like to see for the ghost to make it a more relavant unit.
1) Make the ghost cost more gas than minerals. All casters should be relatively gas heavy, also Terran needs a good gas dump when going bio. Change cost of ghost from 200/100 to 100/125.
2) Allow ghosts to use stim. This allows the ghost to keep with up with the rest of the bio army when it is kiting, which is extremely important for good micro.
3) Minor buff to nuke call down. Decrease nuke call down to 15 seconds and increase cast range from 10 to 12. This makes the nuke actually useful in a tactical situation.
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On April 05 2015 03:09 Loccstana wrote: There is 3 changes I would like to see for the ghost to make it a more relavant unit.
1) Make the ghost cost more gas than minerals. All casters should be relatively gas heavy, also Terran needs a good gas dump when going bio. Change cost of ghost from 200/100 to 100/125.
2) Allow ghosts to use stim. This allows the ghost to keep with up with the rest of the bio army when it is kiting, which is extremely important for good micro.
3) Minor buff to nuke call down. Decrease nuke call down to 15 seconds and increase cast range from 10 to 12. This makes the nuke actually useful in a tactical situation.
Love ideas 1 + 2, but personally I would prefer the cost to be even more skewed, say 50/150 like for High Templar (that gas dump is soooo important for Terran going bio). The stim helps a lot with Zerg, as one of the silliest things ever is trying to use a ghost to emp/snipe Zerg units before an engagement when Zerg units by default are so much faster and therefore never allow this happen.
Your third suggestion I'm on the fence about just because nukes are SO powerful. It's basically game ending if you ever just land one nuke where intended (except in the case of super duper late game where nukes can be used for denying bases). I almost prefer to keep nukes out of competitive play as much as possible, would like a less drastic and more practical ability like lockdown or irradiate. Nukes can be fun though, and casual players love them, so it could be good for the game's exposure to keep them in.
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I think it's difficult to make the Nuke land faster, as that gives so little reaction time, but what you can do is half the time that Ghosts need to channel the Nuke. So that it is more guaranteed to land and makes it more certain the Ghost survives. And Snipe needs to be replaced, or redesigned. Like Infested Terran it is too versatile and so if it's too powerful mass Ghosts/mass Infestors becomes a thing and if it's too weak, the unit is not used.
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On April 04 2015 12:07 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Not a big fan of the proposed new abilities, I think they are a bit too passive, while I feel the ghost should be more of an independent toolbox... The ghost is like an assassin/spy archetype, while those abilities feel more like they'd fit a medic or something. People who suggested reworks to snipe where it can be blocked by interceding units, maybe that could work (a la Caitlyn's ult in LoL, and I'm sure some dota character as well originally ), though I think it would need an even bigger range in that case (maybe work like a siege tank where it has longer range than it has vision so you can benefit from scanning and long distance snipe). Show nested quote +On April 04 2015 11:03 CrazyBread92 wrote: What if they were to remove snipe and give the ghost lockdown while moving emp over to raven? Lockdown is interesting and would help terran against warp prism harass a LOT I think. Bit worried it'd be too strong vs disruptors, although I guess it would create counter micro at least.
Holy hell it's Jinro. Where have you been, you beautiful, beautiful man.
Lockdown vs an immune disruptor would be interesting. Perhaps instead of actually locking it down, it just immediately triggers the explosion, giving a good microing player opportunity to mitigate damage with good aim, while giving the protoss the ability to get the disruptor out again and possibly still do some damage. It creates an ability that doesn't cause a hard counter while still giving both players opportunities for micro.
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Why not just make nuke a more straightforward spell? Reduce the cost, damage and cast time. Change snipe to a skill shot maybe?
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remove snipe, give back lockdown?
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Nuke would be so much more useful with +2 range. Have the nuke itself drop slowly, like in BW, and have it ping on the map only when it's dropping, similar to BW. Allow 2 nukes per Ghost Academy.
Current rendition of snipe is awful, would love to see a change to it. Bringing lockdown back would be sick. To Jinro's point, you could always make it so that Disrupter's "invulnerability" makes it invulnerable to lockdown as well!
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A good start would be to give the ghost perma cloak.
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On April 05 2015 02:19 Pr0wler wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2015 02:10 404AlphaSquad wrote:On April 05 2015 01:42 Pr0wler wrote:On April 05 2015 01:17 royalroadweed wrote:On April 05 2015 00:41 Pr0wler wrote: For everyone wanting Lockdown back. Back in WoL everyone whined about fungle growth, because it's easy to land, has 0 counter play and locks you in place. Hmm... Isn't that exatcly what lockdown is ? Even worse. It's a single target, point and click spell that can be used on the most expensive units with even less counter play. So yeah, please no Lockdown. How is lockdown even worse than wol fungal growth? Its single target, doesn't deal damage, only affect mechanical units and needs to be researched. As opposed to fungal growth which is aoe, deals damage, affects everything and comes free. It may be more expensive to get, but has the same properties that everyone hated about fungle. Locks down units with 0 counter play. Vortex was expensive to get too, but again EVERYONE hated it, because it had no counter play. Spells like Lockdown are just dumb and not exciting... Point, click, now this unit is dead. As I said, please no. I said that Lockdown is worse than fungle in the sense that it's even easier to use, because its point and click. Possible Counterplays: Blink away, load into a dropship, feedback, make disruptor "invulnerable". Counterplay to fungal: Error 404 file not found. It's funny that you are saying that feedback is a counter to lockdown, but it's not a counter to fungle... Also situational counterplays to fungle were - snipe, EMP, siege tanks. But that is not even the point. Show nested quote +On April 05 2015 02:17 royalroadweed wrote:On April 05 2015 02:09 Pr0wler wrote:On April 05 2015 01:58 royalroadweed wrote:On April 05 2015 01:42 Pr0wler wrote:On April 05 2015 01:17 royalroadweed wrote:On April 05 2015 00:41 Pr0wler wrote: For everyone wanting Lockdown back. Back in WoL everyone whined about fungle growth, because it's easy to land, has 0 counter play and locks you in place. Hmm... Isn't that exatcly what lockdown is ? Even worse. It's a single target, point and click spell that can be used on the most expensive units with even less counter play. So yeah, please no Lockdown. How is lockdown even worse than wol fungal growth? Its single target, doesn't deal damage, only affect mechanical units and needs to be researched. As opposed to fungal growth which is aoe, deals damage, affects everything and comes free. It may be more expensive to get, but has the same properties that everyone hated about fungle. Locks down units with 0 counter play. Vortex was expensive to get too, but again EVERYONE hated it, because it had no counter play. Spells like Lockdown are just dumb and not exciting... Point, click, now this unit is dead. As I said, please no. I said that Lockdown is worse than fungle in the sense that it's even easier to use, because its point and click. Wol fungal is point and click too. Fungal also locked down entire armies. Lockdown is best used on a high priority unit. It also doesn't have to be instant. Starbow's version works like seeker missile where you can pull a unit back to escape its range.. Fungle was not point and click. It was instant AoE spell. A point and click spell can be casted on a target without being in range. As long as the targeted unit doesn't go invisible and the ghost catches up ot it, the spell will hit. At least fungle in WoL forced you to be in range for the cast. I think we have enough "locking down" spells in the game. I'm sure that the humans can be more creative than that. In that case, lockdown isn't point and click. Its has 8 range. Fungal growth had 9 in wol. It's, as I said, single target point and click spell. IMO the worst of all spells. Hotkey, click on unit, watch it happen. Let's not turn this discussion into "fungle vs lockdown" one. As I said, lockdown spells like Fungle Growth, Lockdown, Maelstrom and others are in my opinion dumb and not exciting. I hope that I will never see such spell making it into the game. You could make lockdown work like a seeker missile, if you micro the unit back it doesnt get hit, similiar how they have done it in starbow some time ago
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How about have the Ghost Academy start with one pre-built nuke ready to go. Subsequent nukes still cost the same and no other changes. That should encourage a little bit more nuke usage in pro play without making it's stats OP.
Also someone said reduce the Ghosts mineral cost, I like that idea.
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How about this.
Decrese ghost cost to 100/100 Incrase EMP cooldown to 10 seconds.
Increase nuke cost to 300/300 Increase nuke damage to 10 000 Give nuke fallout damage, slowly damaging units over time who enter the area within 1minute of explosion.
Now killing the ghost before the nuke lands is actually your goal, not just pulling units away.
Also ofcourse give ghost stim aswell. Makes no sense that they cant.
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Hmm, what if lockdown would be: - AoE (with radius of storm for example or slightly bigger) - cast on ground (as forcefield) - visiually it would be a grenade which would blow after couple (2-5) of seconds and then start to apply effect (similarly to time warp in LotV) so is is possible to escape with mechanical units - affects only ground mechanical units - affected units cannot move, shoot or use abilities for some time (5-15 sec ?) - 50-75 energy - 7-10 range ?
Would allow for some positional play with bio against mech (lock down on group of tanks) and vs protoss before and during engagement -> forces to reposition colo/immo and stalkers.
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Why not give it the lockdown ability from BW? It would be perfect for disabling mechanical units.
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On April 18 2015 23:36 TurboDreams wrote: Why not give it the lockdown ability from BW? It would be perfect for disabling mechanical units.
Ironically, that's what you'd think the EMP ability would be used for, heh.
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Ghosts are too cool to be played.
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The Ghost simply needs to be freed up from its centrality in bio TvP. It also goes without saying that mech should be able to operate without EMP. Otherwise, we just cannot do much out of the unit, as we'll drown ourselves in the issue of EMP showers (1) being an absolute TvP requirement and (2) potentially snowballing out of control.
So, assuming the two following principles:
(1) Terran is free from the mandatory EMP in TvP (no more super high-stake Ghosts vs HT wars, etc.). (2) We change as little as possible (i. e. no new spells, etc.).
... I would propose this:
GHOST Decrease mineral cost to 50, down from 200. Decrease gas cost to 75, down from 100. Decrease supply cost to 1, down from 2. Decrease production time to 35, down from 40. Decrease hit points to 60, down from 100. Decrease damage to 6 (+6 vs Light). Reintroduce Moebius Reactor. Snipe changed to 35 damage, -10 vs Massive, +10 vs Psionic. Decrease the speed of the EMP missile (~slightly faster than Fungal). EMP now removes 75 shields, down from 100. EMP now has a 15 seconds cooldown. Tactical Nuke now deals 750/375/200 damage, up from 500/250/125.
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Ghosts were great at the start and people used them to good effect. Unfortunately Blizzard nerfed them hard before anyone really had a chance to learn how to counter them.
Now you don't see them because they're not as good an investment as simply making more bio.
The forced necessity of Terran bio is the worst thing to happen to this game, imo.
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They needed to get nerfed hard, as they shut down both late game branches of zerg - Ultralisks and Broodlords. But a lot has happened since then, so a reevaluation of the ghost sounds very appealing to me.
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On April 19 2015 08:32 Striker.superfreunde wrote: They needed to get nerfed hard, as they shut down both late game branches of zerg - Ultralisks and Broodlords. But a lot has happened since then, so a reevaluation of the ghost sounds very appealing to me.
They didn't need to get nerfed as hard as they were, clearly. They're hardly used now.
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On April 19 2015 08:32 Striker.superfreunde wrote: They needed to get nerfed hard, as they shut down both late game branches of zerg - Ultralisks and Broodlords. But a lot has happened since then, so a reevaluation of the ghost sounds very appealing to me.
I never really felt this way. I feel like they were strong, and even a soft counter, but by no means a hardcounter.
Almost every single game the Zergs lost their mass BL to mass ghost, there was a recurring theme. The ghosts were always cloaked and unseen as the 2-3 overseers were picked off via snipe. BL > Ghosts in a 1v1 if ghosts don't have cloak. If Zergs just make like 10 overseers, it wouldn't have been an issue, and there were countless games where I saw this happen.
A fungal at the same time would pin them, but then Terran had the EMP and would get all the infestors. I actually liked seeing this dynamic (as who actually likes watching *mass* infestor).
I do admit that they were borderline hard counter to ultras though.
I play random now, but I only played Zerg when the Ghosts were super strong. Didn't think it was that big of a deal, I kind of liked it.
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I haven't played sc2 actively since the end of WoL, but what changed to make the ghost not useful? I don't claim to have necessarily played the same way anyone else did, but my understanding of the ghost back then was that they were a staple part of every composition against every race.
In tvp if you had fewer than 12-16 ghosts you were wrong-- you needed them to blanket EMP their army, Snipe HTs, and after a certain point nuke harass was most cost and supply efficient than dropping marine/marauder if you were going bio.
In tvz if your opponent was using infestors at all or queens offensively it was important to be able to Snipe them with ghosts, and again nuke harass is amazing.
In tvt whether you started with mech or bio the game would eventually stalemate in mostly tank + air control, so ravens became necessary to knock out Viking clusters, and thus ghosts became essential to nullify their Ravens first. And while I realize this may be different now that Medics can move sieged tanks, Nukes were the best way to force an opponent in a superior position to unsiege and move into a more compromising position.
I haven't followed all the changes in units and meta since then, but it seems like there's more spellcasters, so I would expect Ghosts to become more essential, not less. If it matters, I was top masters when I was active through the end of 2012.
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Has anyone ever considered buffing snipe back to its original damage level but just adding a short cooldown? The total dps seemed to be the main issue, not the burst damage, plus it was pretty ridiculous that the ghost could essentially rapid-fire a sniper rifle...
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On April 19 2015 12:30 -NegativeZero- wrote: Has anyone ever considered buffing snipe back to its original damage level but just adding a short cooldown? The total dps seemed to be the main issue, not the burst damage, plus it was pretty ridiculous that the ghost could essentially rapid-fire a sniper rifle...
Wouldn't make a huge difference because ghosts are used in squads of like 4-5 when they did this, so it would probably just hit the other ghosts first, unless you're talking a notable cooldown.
Honestly, I still think they should just revert it back completely. I don't think it was as big of an issue as Blizzard thought it was, especially against BL. And with the new ultra "extra armor," the attack that ignores armor could be considered a very useful counter.
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Gameplay aside, I honestly just want to have a Ghost/Spectre alternative skins like what they did with Dark Templars.
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On April 28 2015 13:41 Brutaxilos wrote: Gameplay aside, I honestly just want to have a Ghost/Spectre alternative skins like what they did with Dark Templars.
Need female ghosts too.
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On April 28 2015 15:01 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2015 13:41 Brutaxilos wrote: Gameplay aside, I honestly just want to have a Ghost/Spectre alternative skins like what they did with Dark Templars. Need female ghosts too. Like there could totally be a Nova skin for Ghosts (the model already exists, so that would take absolutely zero work to do).
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i want another ghost academy unit!!!!!!!! come blizzard listen to meh!!!!!
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On May 03 2015 18:05 Sholip wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2015 15:01 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:On April 28 2015 13:41 Brutaxilos wrote: Gameplay aside, I honestly just want to have a Ghost/Spectre alternative skins like what they did with Dark Templars. Need female ghosts too. Like there could totally be a Nova skin for Ghosts (the model already exists, so that would take absolutely zero work to do).
Maybe a Nova skin would be a bit overkill, but they could easily do a slight workover on the female Ghost model and put that in.
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On April 19 2015 13:32 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2015 12:30 -NegativeZero- wrote: Has anyone ever considered buffing snipe back to its original damage level but just adding a short cooldown? The total dps seemed to be the main issue, not the burst damage, plus it was pretty ridiculous that the ghost could essentially rapid-fire a sniper rifle... Wouldn't make a huge difference because ghosts are used in squads of like 4-5 when they did this, so it would probably just hit the other ghosts first, unless you're talking a notable cooldown. Honestly, I still think they should just revert it back completely. I don't think it was as big of an issue as Blizzard thought it was, especially against BL. And with the new ultra "extra armor," the attack that ignores armor could be considered a very useful counter. It was issue big enough to mean that terrans should never build marauders or tanks to counter ultra, or vikings against any zerg unit since ghost were much stronger in all of those cases. Essentially making the hive tech units worthless. They would also hard counter lurkers in lotv.
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