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In its current form, LOTV has new problems for Terran to deal with, especially in the T v Z matchup. The main problem with the racial interaction in this matchup is the lack of a role of the ghost and the lack of a response against the Ultra. It is true, we have speed banshees for Terran, tanks, cyclones--but the creation of ultras requires Terran to switch to Mech/Skyterran compositions quickly due to the hardcounter nature of Ultras v. Bio with nerfed Marauders. While I don't think transitioning out of compositions is bad, I think soft counters existing within a composition are a good thing.
Let's talk about the Ghost.
Snipe has been neutered. It used to be useful for singling out high value units of all sizes, Banelings, Ultralisks, Broodlords, Mutalisks. It was changed drastically because of its efficiency at being massed and countering all of Tier 3 for Zerg. It was redesigned to become a psionic counter, so that Ghosts could challenge spell casters. However, this role is redundant because of EMP and frankly, kind of uninspired.
Now that we have the beta, we have a chance to redesign Snipe once more. Some people are asking for it to return and be less of a hardcounter to both Broodlords and Ultralisks but preserve its utility against high value units--but I question that logic. Snipe was NEVER an interesting ability but was simply a "free instant damage with more clicks" spell without any counterplay or interaction. I don't want it back when we can get something better in return.
I propose a redesigned Ghost--
Ghost:
Same general stats as HOTS
New ability: "Prone"
The Ghost can go prone, becoming a stationary target. When prone, the Ghost uses no energy to cloak, but it stops gaining energy. It's attack range jumps from 6 to 8. When prone, the Ghost can activate its "Snipe" ability.
Redesigned ability: "Snipe"
Snipe (range 11) highlights the target unit with a red dot or a set of red dots for each ghost targeting it. Snipe has a "channel time" like widow mines, and then fires a powerful air piercing round for massive damage (if this was the design, it could afford to be really high--like 100 damage).
If a unit escapes its target range, the ghost misses its shot. There are no visual indicators of what the snipe range is, or what direction the laser dot is coming from, making the opponent have to guess which direction to escape to to avoid the damage.
Snipe can be used against any unit type
Strategy:
There is an incentive to plant squads of ghosts intelligently in "ambush zones", laying prone and to not start sniping until the bio army has forced a Zerg/Protoss to push. Ghost users may opt to delay sniping until an enemy army has already committed to a position, preventing the enemy from escaping fire unless they have detection and kill the Ghost first. Additional strategies might include dropping ghosts behind enemy lines, and sniping the army from behind, forcing the enemy to flee the wrong way and retreat towards the ghosts ensuring Snipe will hit.
You can also use Snipe's superior 11 range to challenge immobile long range targets, like Lurker siege lines, and Siege tanks (although be careful--that red dot will signal a scan).
Basically, this rendition of snipe promotes a similar type of dynamic to HSM without being as telegraphed or slow. Also, proning allows the ghost to be more flexible on the map, and to help secure positions without having mech available. It plays nicely with unit identity as it promotes a powerful ability while exemplifying the sneaky and trap nature of the ghost.
This rendition of the ghost would involve a lot of play, counterplay, and fill out the meat of Terran Bio and give them new answers to Zerg Ultralisk and Lurker without sacrificing the brute force of those units.
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Russian Federation4295 Posts
My idea is very simple.
CHange his snipe from 25 (+25 vs psionics) to 25 (+75) vs psionics
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On April 18 2015 03:56 Existor wrote: My idea is very simple.
CHange his snipe from 25 (+25 vs psionics) to 25 (+75) vs psionics
I would go even further, let's give ghosts an aura that kills psionic units at sight.
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Quality of discussion has really dropped in these parts...
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I ain't afraid of no ghost
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Yes Ghost needs a redesign, but i don't like your snipe, it is too much like the raven/cyclone/mine mechanic..
Let's start by removing its light affix to decrease baneling damage
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I've always said Snipe should be 35 (+15 psionic) Keeps psionic damage the same, but increases effectiveness against ultras and BL to help bio lategame.
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On April 18 2015 04:34 Insidioussc2 wrote: Yes Ghost needs a redesign, but i don't like your snipe, it is too much like the raven/cyclone/mine mechanic..
Let's start by removing its light affix to decrease baneling damage
I thought about this, but I think in a way being similar to those things makes it easier to understand and also more inline with racial identity.
Think about how Ryu's Hadoken and Guile's Sonic Boom are so different, and how both projectiles can create drastically different situations due to their minute differences.
I think of the snipe mechanic similarly. Unlike the WM It doesn't have AOE, unlike the HSM it is instant in its damage delivery but has startup, unlike the Cyclone it is immobile and does not announce its effective range.
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Other threat. I like lockdown as an ability to be used against all non-massive units, and against disruptors, it just triggers the explosion and lets the protoss move the unit away as if it detonated normally (and it does, just prematurely)
gives great counter micro.
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i guess i'll just say the same thing i did in the other ghost thread, ditch snipe in favor of lockdown.
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I do aprreciate a new design for GHOST.
But your idea is TOOOOOOOO CRAZY!!
But i like it!!!!!!!
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On April 18 2015 13:48 Honeybadger wrote: Other threat. I like lockdown as an ability to be used against all non-massive units, and against disruptors, it just triggers the explosion and lets the protoss move the unit away as if it detonated normally (and it does, just prematurely)
gives great counter micro.
Lockdown would be cool but I don't think the developers are going to move in a direction that involves reupping on all of SC:BW design. Some people want to see something new and the idea of "sniping" is what they perceive to be as the logical choice for ghost.
The question is, how do you make such a move interesting and function within the identity of the ghost. I kind of think proning and sniping in this method maximizes counterplay, is familiar but brings new things to the table, and packs a punch so it feels powerful enough to warrant the creation of ghosts.
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@OP: a cloaked, bio siege tank? Count me in.
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buff snipe, emp now temporarily slows bio units.
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On April 19 2015 07:32 Reptilia wrote: buff snipe, emp now temporarily slows bio units. This is cool as it would make Ghost bio an interesting counterplay to biotank in tvt.
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But this is nothing but yet another "better attack that needs to be clicked manually and can be dodged". The dodging part makes it different from a normal attack, sure, but at the end, since it is single-target, it will be very difficult to make it "sometimes hit". The splash equivalents (mines, HSM) have the added interaction of the splash where even if it hits, you can micro so that you minimize the splash, but this is just hit or miss and if it is possible to make it miss, people will learn to do that consistently eventually.
Honestly, this trend of "better attack" abilities is almost ironic, because the ultimate end of it would be a situation where you need to micro every unit to fire efficeintly ... which will be moreorless equivalent to BW with just normal attacks (because of the stupidity of the AI)
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Snipe (range 11) highlights the target unit with a red dot or a set of red dots for each ghost targeting it. Snipe has a "channel time" like widow mines, and then fires a powerful air piercing round for massive damage (if this was the design, it could afford to be really high--like 100 damage).
If a unit escapes its target range, the ghost misses its shot. There are no visual indicators of what the snipe range is, or what direction the laser dot is coming from, making the opponent have to guess which direction to escape to to avoid the damage.
After spending tens of hours in the editor working and testing different single-target skillshots in order to discover how they best can be implemented into Starcraft, my conclusion is the following: I like the idea (otherwise I wouldn't spend time on it), but a single target skillshot can't function well on the current Ghost. The issue is that when a ability isn't guarnateed to hit, two other conditions must be met:
(1) It must feel really powerful when it hits (2) It must be reatively spamable
Now, a spamable single-target Snipe is just not gonna work as it results in too much APM resulting clicking on enemy units.
Thus, I believe it must be much more powerful. 100 damage isn't powerful nor exciting. Its not "fun" taking a Maurauder from 125 to 25 HP. Instead, a single target skillshot must one shot the majority of the units in the game if it hits. However, the Ghost is simply way too powerful with this ability. Imagine what happens if the enemy attacks and you have 15 ghosts? You target all of his Immortals/collosus --> Enemy has to retreat with those units (otherwise they die), and since the units need to go far back, they cannot paritcipate in the actual engagements.
Thus, there simply is no golden middleground or way to make this have actual interesting interactions as long as the Ghost is relatively easy to produce. Perhaps if it was 4 supply, 200/200 with +10 second BT, we could reevaluate it.
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On April 23 2015 22:50 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +Snipe (range 11) highlights the target unit with a red dot or a set of red dots for each ghost targeting it. Snipe has a "channel time" like widow mines, and then fires a powerful air piercing round for massive damage (if this was the design, it could afford to be really high--like 100 damage).
If a unit escapes its target range, the ghost misses its shot. There are no visual indicators of what the snipe range is, or what direction the laser dot is coming from, making the opponent have to guess which direction to escape to to avoid the damage.
After spending tens of hours in the editor working and testing different single-target skillshots in order to discover how they best can be implemented into Starcraft, my conclusion is the following: I like the idea (otherwise I wouldn't spend time on it), but a single target skillshot can't function well on the current Ghost. The issue is that when a ability isn't guarnateed to hit, two other conditions must be met: (1) It must feel really powerful when it hits (2) It must be reatively spamable Now, a spamable single-target Snipe is just not gonna work as it results in too much APM resulting clicking on enemy units. Thus, I believe it must be much more powerful. 100 damage isn't powerful nor exciting. Its not "fun" taking a Maurauder from 125 to 25 HP. Instead, a single target skillshot must one shot the majority of the units in the game if it hits. However, the Ghost is simply way too powerful with this ability. Imagine what happens if the enemy attacks and you have 15 ghosts? You target all of his Immortals/collosus --> Enemy has to retreat with those units (otherwise they die), and since the units need to go far back, they cannot paritcipate in the actual engagements. Thus, there simply is no golden middleground or way to make this have actual interesting interactions as long as the Ghost is relatively easy to produce. Perhaps if it was 4 supply, 200/200 with +10 second BT, we could reevaluate it.
Thanks for testing it so extensively. Why would having it designed so that a sweetspot of 2 ghosts per target is enough to kill 90% of targets, with larger targets like colossus requiring 4 or 5? With the new micro tricks we have like repeated press keys, isn't it not as bad an apm requirement as you are implying?
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Russian Federation421 Posts
I'm not good at units number tweaking, but I was hoping that snipe would be buffed/changed so that you can counter ultras with ghosts (but not broodlords). That way bio would have some late game power giving you time to transition out of it. I would also hope for nuke buff, I think I haven't seen pros using nukes since Happy's run in WCS Europe Season 3 last year.
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