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This isn't a very well thought out post and I usually just go on TL to look for streams, I apologize for writing this out poorly, but here it goes.
Basically, they're doing what they did with the Infestor and nerfed it in a way to discourage its use. This is wrong and if they nerf it again with the same approach it will just be another "I'm so ahead I'll make these because fuck you" unit
I love the Ravager but the problem is that it comes out way too early and the only way to stop Roach-Ravager is if you blind counter it and just assume that is the build, and you already start mining your main out before you expand if you do that.
They basically said "Well, people said Ravagers come out way too early, and they said this should be Lair tech unit, but that's not a good idea because the community suggested it and the community is ALWAYS wrong, so let's just nerf its stats and HP. Oh while we're at it let's make Cyclones big and see if that changes balance or something."
The community isn't always wrong, Blizzard. Please stop taking the wrong approach to these things.
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Infestor would be so much better if they just gave Neural +1 range
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Why would you like Ravagers? They are just Kog´Maw but more ugly. Besides zerg already could counter forcefields with burrow move roachers, mutas and the new lurkers in lair tech plus with ultralisk in hive tech, so obviously zergs needed a counter in hatch tech. If the community cries about something too much (see colossus, swarm host, marauders, forcefields) blizzard just nerfs them out of the game even if they are not OP.
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On May 03 2015 01:49 FabledIntegral wrote:Infestor would be so much better if they just gave Neural +1 range I do miss neural-ing Thors and Colossus. Even BC's. Won some games like that in beta - so neat.
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I'm liking your suggestions to the problem here.
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Because they want to give Zerg an early tool to deal with Forcefields. Nerfing the stats makes it more of a utility unit, where you get it for the ability, instead of just making your Roach bigger and stronger.
Infestor would be so much better if they just gave Neural +1 range Pretty sure they did that already.
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On May 03 2015 01:56 ejozl wrote:Because they want to give Zerg an early tool to deal with Forcefields. Nerfing the stats makes it more of a utility unit, where you get it for the ability, instead of just making your Roach bigger and stronger. Pretty sure they did that already.
When? For LOTV?
On May 03 2015 01:55 CursOr wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2015 01:49 FabledIntegral wrote:Infestor would be so much better if they just gave Neural +1 range I do miss neural-ing Thors and Colossus. Even BC's. Won some games like that in beta - so neat.
It was range 9 then they nerfed to range 7. Went from being extremely useful to almost not useful at all. Range 8 is in the middle (clearly, heh).
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When? For LOTV? Think they made it 8 for LotV.
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On May 03 2015 01:56 ejozl wrote:Because they want to give Zerg an early tool to deal with Forcefields. Nerfing the stats makes it more of a utility unit, where you get it for the ability, instead of just making your Roach bigger and stronger. Pretty sure they did that already.
Agree with this, I would like the Ravager to be strictly utility based, before it was just a, "Well you should mass Ravagers because massing Roaches is easy and Ravagers are just super FF killing Roaches."
Now there is some semblance of a strategic choice, makes ZvZ a ton better as well I'm sure (I got BETA key after the nerf but I clearly saw the early game nonsense of Ravagers) so hopefully this pushes them in a decent direction.
Now if only the Infestor could start getting some actual attention despite the sexy ninja neural buff <3
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On May 03 2015 01:52 NasusAndDraven wrote: Why would you like Ravagers? They are just Kog´Maw but more ugly. Besides zerg already could counter forcefields with burrow move roachers, mutas and the new lurkers in lair tech plus with ultralisk in hive tech, so obviously zergs needed a counter in hatch tech. If the community cries about something too much (see colossus, swarm host, marauders, forcefields) blizzard just nerfs them out of the game even if they are not OP. Man the only thing about those things you mentioned that actually counter FF is ultralisk. Roaches CAN survive against good forcefields, its not a counter lol, usually P has immortals so if you counter FFs with roaches you are automatically making units against their greatest counter.
Mutas counter FFs? Thats very funny, by the time Z has mutas, P has blink. Trying to hard engage a blink stalker ball that can FF away your lings is suicide even if you do have time enough to get mutas out (which you normally don't against 80% of Ps all-ins.
About the ravager I think blizzard is going down the right path actually, Z needs a counter against FF. There is no counterplay to FFs at the moment, besides burrow roaches which only works in games were P doesn't make immortals which they do like always lol.
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That thread should be in the LotV section.
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On May 03 2015 01:52 NasusAndDraven wrote: Why would you like Ravagers? They are just Kog´Maw but more ugly. Besides zerg already could counter forcefields with burrow move roachers, mutas and the new lurkers in lair tech plus with ultralisk in hive tech, so obviously zergs needed a counter in hatch tech. If the community cries about something too much (see colossus, swarm host, marauders, forcefields) blizzard just nerfs them out of the game even if they are not OP. Just... No. If that was the case, people would easily counter any 2 base protoss tech involving a lot of sentries. Which isn't simply the case at all. If you want to make it work, you need a LOT of time to prepare for it. You can't simply blindly go lair and have burrow + roach's burrow upgrades. In others words, that's basically a blind counter.
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On May 03 2015 03:08 RaiZ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2015 01:52 NasusAndDraven wrote: Why would you like Ravagers? They are just Kog´Maw but more ugly. Besides zerg already could counter forcefields with burrow move roachers, mutas and the new lurkers in lair tech plus with ultralisk in hive tech, so obviously zergs needed a counter in hatch tech. If the community cries about something too much (see colossus, swarm host, marauders, forcefields) blizzard just nerfs them out of the game even if they are not OP. Just... No. If that was the case, people would easily counter any 2 base protoss tech involving a lot of sentries. Which isn't simply the case at all. If you want to make it work, you need a LOT of time to prepare for it. You can't simply blindly go lair and have burrow + roach's burrow upgrades. In others words, that's basically a blind counter.
Roaches doesn't need the upgrade to move while burrowed in lotv, you only need burrow which is available at hatchery tech. Still though, it is not very good if they have an observer, and they move incredibly slow before the speed upgrade.
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On May 03 2015 01:55 CursOr wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2015 01:49 FabledIntegral wrote:Infestor would be so much better if they just gave Neural +1 range I do miss neural-ing Thors and Colossus. Even BC's. Won some games like that in beta - so neat.
Why do you miss it, Neural is Range 16 in HotS once you hit Hive.
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Assuming you are only talking about the normal attack nerf, I gotta say I find this a good change. I like it that the morph changes hows the unit works. As it was, it was no reason not to morph other than money. Imo the ravager shouldnt even have an normal attack to really make one choose between a normal attacking unit and a specialized siege/aoe unit. I am only talking about the ravager as a concept I am not saying that the current stats/buildtime/techpath are right or wrong.
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Before the patch there was no thought about making ravagers or not. ravagers were always better than roaches so you always morphed as much roaches into ravagers as possible. Now morphing ravagers is a strategic decision. Do you want more raw firepower in your army or more zoning potential and the ability to break forcefields?
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You shouldn't be so attached to unit stats. Their feelings don't get hurt if you half their dps, it's just a different balance choice to give the ravager a different role in the game.
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As long as it can break forcefields, i don't care.
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Are you saying something is broken in the Beta?
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I like the ida of nerfing the ravager stats. I hate how shit their perception of what a zerg unit should be able to do is. As a comparison, the cyclone which has been a much bigger balance problem only got its power delayed. Mass cyclone is still imbalanced, but hey, at least shitty stargate coinflips still work.
Ravagers need some serious buff to their corrosive bile if they want it to have some utility. Just running more roaches into forcefields and walls is seriously better than denying a forcefield for 0.5seconds for 75gas.
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