|
I think that the most broken spell in SC2 currently is feedback, having an ability that actually makes it undesirable to have more energy, considering how many energy units there are in the game now is a terrible game mechanic, and I think it needs to be addressed. Some options could be:
1) Add a "deplete energy" spell for all energy consuming units. This will get rid of 25 energy per cast and does not have cooldown. 2) Change feedback so that it cannot kill a unit, but it will leave a unit at 1hp if it has more energy than hp. 3) Change feedback so that it drains 75% of a unit's energy, and still deals damage equal to the amount of energy drained. 4) Change feedback so that it no longer deals damage to enemy units, but the high templar absorbs the energy for it's own use. 5) Change feedback so it still drains the energy and does damage over time instead of instantly.
Personally, I feel that a "deplete energy" spell would be good, as it will offer control and decision making to the opponent - players can deliberately keep the energy below the unit's hp so that it doesn't get instagibbed.
|
I think it's a legit concern, we end up having a lot of units that feel like spell casters, but don't have energy, because of the fear of Feedback. I don't think Feedback hurts any of the new stuff for LotV, but I do think it hinders the design space. Best solution could be to only make it deal damage to Psionic units, or have another type of energy for some units, where EMP/Feedback cannot deplete it. It's a cool spell though, so I wouldn't like a change like the ones you've suggested.
|
i think its nowhere near as problematic as you say.
I think the only thing thats strange with feedback, is that it can be used on energy using units that arent casters (like battlecruisers).
However, on the same note, EMP drains all energy AND removes shield - making it effective against every protoss unit.
Another point is, that without feedback, protoss would be strongly underpowered in the lategame. Especially in LotV, lategame casters like the Viper are much more versatile than the templar.
Again- I dont think the "anti caster spell" countering casters - is a big issue.
|
On May 06 2015 05:09 WhenRaxFly wrote: I think that the most broken spell in SC2 currently is feedback, having an ability that actually makes it undesirable to have more energy, considering how many energy units there are in the game now is a terrible game mechanic, and I think it needs to be addressed. Some options could be:
1) Add a "deplete energy" spell for all energy consuming units. This will get rid of 25 energy per cast and does not have cooldown. 2) Change feedback so that it cannot kill a unit, but it will leave a unit at 1hp if it has more energy than hp. 3) Change feedback so that it drains 75% of a unit's energy, and still deals damage equal to the amount of energy drained. 4) Change feedback so that it no longer deals damage to enemy units, but the high templar absorbs the energy for it's own use. 5) Change feedback so it still drains the energy and does damage over time instead of instantly.
Personally, I feel that a "deplete energy" spell would be good, as it will offer control and decision making to the opponent - players can deliberately keep the energy below the unit's hp so that it doesn't get instagibbed.
Feedback is fine, it just forces some micro interactions.
It's a spell and you need to be aware of its existence and micro around it. Like abduct, widow mines, and everything else in the game.
|
Feedback is one of those things that is needed in some interactions (ghosts, vipers) but is problematic because it is so effective against everything with energy (ravens, battle cruisers, banshees).
Imo a good solution could be that it only deals dmg to bio units or something.
and as ejozl said it hinders design space.
|
On May 06 2015 05:09 WhenRaxFly wrote: I think that the most broken spell in SC2 currently is feedback, having an ability that actually makes it undesirable to have more energy, considering how many energy units there are in the game now is a terrible game mechanic, and I think it needs to be addressed. Some options could be:
1) Add a "deplete energy" spell for all energy consuming units. This will get rid of 25 energy per cast and does not have cooldown. 2) Change feedback so that it cannot kill a unit, but it will leave a unit at 1hp if it has more energy than hp. 3) Change feedback so that it drains 75% of a unit's energy, and still deals damage equal to the amount of energy drained. 4) Change feedback so that it no longer deals damage to enemy units, but the high templar absorbs the energy for it's own use. 5) Change feedback so it still drains the energy and does damage over time instead of instantly.
Personally, I feel that a "deplete energy" spell would be good, as it will offer control and decision making to the opponent - players can deliberately keep the energy below the unit's hp so that it doesn't get instagibbed.
I think that feedback is really okay. Promotes a lot of control of you spell casters.
Every race has a spell that is a big money shot. Snipe, EMP, Fungal, Abduct... Feedback is a counter to that, and HTs are the slowest caster in the game, so it takes more time to get to the Feedback point than to land other spells. Feedback is a positional spell.
Protoss armies are really expensive, and what's more important, heavily relly on splash damage since the basic army is far less cost efficient than other races in most cases. That generates energy tension between Feedback and Storm.
BTW, Protoss doesn't have such destructive spells like Vipers do or EMP (A feedback with AOE to Protsos)
I think that Feedback compensates for that and it's fairly balanced in most cases, specially since there is counterplay maneuvers to it.
|
On May 06 2015 07:25 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2015 05:09 WhenRaxFly wrote: I think that the most broken spell in SC2 currently is feedback, having an ability that actually makes it undesirable to have more energy, considering how many energy units there are in the game now is a terrible game mechanic, and I think it needs to be addressed. Some options could be:
1) Add a "deplete energy" spell for all energy consuming units. This will get rid of 25 energy per cast and does not have cooldown. 2) Change feedback so that it cannot kill a unit, but it will leave a unit at 1hp if it has more energy than hp. 3) Change feedback so that it drains 75% of a unit's energy, and still deals damage equal to the amount of energy drained. 4) Change feedback so that it no longer deals damage to enemy units, but the high templar absorbs the energy for it's own use. 5) Change feedback so it still drains the energy and does damage over time instead of instantly.
Personally, I feel that a "deplete energy" spell would be good, as it will offer control and decision making to the opponent - players can deliberately keep the energy below the unit's hp so that it doesn't get instagibbed. Feedback is fine, it just forces some micro interactions. It's a spell and you need to be aware of its existence and micro around it. Like abduct, widow mines, and everything else in the game.
The problem is that you can't micro against it - if your spellcaster gets within 9 range of a HT and happens to have a lot of energy, then it is pretty much going to instantly die as long as your opponent clicks on that unit. Having a deplete energy skill would make it more tactical instead of currently which is pretty much luck based.
|
It's near the bottom of the priority list and I don't think it's too broken, but I do agree with changing it as it is pretty lame game mechanic. I'd prefer it to be a softer counter to energy units like EMP.
Out of the options you listed, I like #2 the most. I think feedback at a bare minimum shouldn't kill units. To keep it fair, I also support removing/redesigning abduct and snipe.
|
I don't always like the gameplay it produces (fb vs emp, fb vs abduct are kind of binary imo), although I don't think it's necessarily true that players "don't want" their units to have energy just because of the risk of feedback. Either way, on the list of things that should be addressed, even just with Protoss, this rates pretty low.
|
On May 06 2015 07:40 JCoto wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2015 05:09 WhenRaxFly wrote: I think that the most broken spell in SC2 currently is feedback, having an ability that actually makes it undesirable to have more energy, considering how many energy units there are in the game now is a terrible game mechanic, and I think it needs to be addressed. Some options could be:
1) Add a "deplete energy" spell for all energy consuming units. This will get rid of 25 energy per cast and does not have cooldown. 2) Change feedback so that it cannot kill a unit, but it will leave a unit at 1hp if it has more energy than hp. 3) Change feedback so that it drains 75% of a unit's energy, and still deals damage equal to the amount of energy drained. 4) Change feedback so that it no longer deals damage to enemy units, but the high templar absorbs the energy for it's own use. 5) Change feedback so it still drains the energy and does damage over time instead of instantly.
Personally, I feel that a "deplete energy" spell would be good, as it will offer control and decision making to the opponent - players can deliberately keep the energy below the unit's hp so that it doesn't get instagibbed. I think that feedback is really okay. Promotes a lot of control of you spell casters. Every race has a spell that is a big money shot. Snipe, EMP, Fungal, Abduct... Feedback is a counter to that, and HTs are the slowest caster in the game, so it takes more time to get to the Feedback point than to land other spells.Feedback is a positional spell. Protoss armies are really expensive, and what's more important, heavily relly on splash damage since the basic army is far less cost efficient than other races in most cases. That generates energy tension between Feedback and Storm. BTW, Protoss doesn't have such destructive spells like Vipers do or EMP (A feedback with AOE to Protsos) I think that Feedback compensates for that and it's fairly balanced in most cases, specially since there is counterplay maneuvers to it.
That sums it up pretty well, actually. I think as well if you removed the damage, all things being equal, it would be a pretty substantial nerf. It helps curb medivac counts and adds some risk to using vipers, which are otherwise pretty much invulnerable.
|
I think that the "problems" with it, as much as it could be said that there are any, could be mitigated by less availability of the spell at all times. It would've been nice if the Dark Archon persisted into SC2 and kept feedback, because a 250/250 cost spellcaster that takes additional time to warp in and merge would discourage mass usage of the spell. As it stands, feedback is in the game, it provides a few interesting unit interactions, and reworking the spell itself might cause more problems than it fixes. I'd rather have specific issues worked around than have feedback changed at this point.
For example, having the total energy of BCs and Ravens (or at least the latter) dropped down to 100 and have their spells dropped to half cost would make feedback less annoyingly effective against those units, and make them more usable against Protoss. As as a side benefit, it would also make them amass energy twice as quickly, as well as start with proportionately more energy, so that they're more useful right out of the gate, and less dependent on massing for the super lategame in order to build up enough energy. Just on the whole, I think it would be easier to design around feedback than severely change it and deal with the fallout.
|
On May 06 2015 07:53 WhenRaxFly wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2015 07:25 DinoMight wrote:On May 06 2015 05:09 WhenRaxFly wrote: I think that the most broken spell in SC2 currently is feedback, having an ability that actually makes it undesirable to have more energy, considering how many energy units there are in the game now is a terrible game mechanic, and I think it needs to be addressed. Some options could be:
1) Add a "deplete energy" spell for all energy consuming units. This will get rid of 25 energy per cast and does not have cooldown. 2) Change feedback so that it cannot kill a unit, but it will leave a unit at 1hp if it has more energy than hp. 3) Change feedback so that it drains 75% of a unit's energy, and still deals damage equal to the amount of energy drained. 4) Change feedback so that it no longer deals damage to enemy units, but the high templar absorbs the energy for it's own use. 5) Change feedback so it still drains the energy and does damage over time instead of instantly.
Personally, I feel that a "deplete energy" spell would be good, as it will offer control and decision making to the opponent - players can deliberately keep the energy below the unit's hp so that it doesn't get instagibbed. Feedback is fine, it just forces some micro interactions. It's a spell and you need to be aware of its existence and micro around it. Like abduct, widow mines, and everything else in the game. The problem is that you can't micro against it - if your spellcaster gets within 9 range of a HT and happens to have a lot of energy, then it is pretty much going to instantly die as long as your opponent clicks on that unit. Having a deplete energy skill would make it more tactical instead of currently which is pretty much luck based.
You can't micro your caster necessarily against it but you can do other things. Like choose to fight elsewhere so the slow ass HT is out of position. OR send in some ground army to force him to pull his HTs back and then hit with Vipers or Ravens or whatever.
Feedback is totally fine, honestly. There are other things to focus on at the moment.
|
I think there are more important things, but I agree it would be better if it left units with at least 1 HP instead of killing them.
|
I don't think Feedback is a problem at all, but:
On May 06 2015 05:09 WhenRaxFly wrote: I think that the most broken spell in SC2 currently is feedback, having an ability that actually makes it undesirable to have more energy, considering how many energy units there are in the game now is a terrible game mechanic, and I think it needs to be addressed. Some options could be:
1) Add a "deplete energy" spell for all energy consuming units. This will get rid of 25 energy per cast and does not have cooldown. That's completely ridiculous...
2) Change feedback so that it cannot kill a unit, but it will leave a unit at 1hp if it has more energy than hp. That I can get behind.
3) Change feedback so that it drains 75% of a unit's energy, and still deals damage equal to the amount of energy drained. 4) Change feedback so that it no longer deals damage to enemy units, but the high templar absorbs the energy for it's own use. 5) Change feedback so it still drains the energy and does damage over time instead of instantly. Meh.
|
Delpete energy is good, there is really no reason why this should not be available. Well, for terran, you can EMP your own stuff (which I have even seen people do already in WoL), bud other races don't have this luxury.
|
On May 06 2015 07:53 WhenRaxFly wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2015 07:25 DinoMight wrote:On May 06 2015 05:09 WhenRaxFly wrote: I think that the most broken spell in SC2 currently is feedback, having an ability that actually makes it undesirable to have more energy, considering how many energy units there are in the game now is a terrible game mechanic, and I think it needs to be addressed. Some options could be:
1) Add a "deplete energy" spell for all energy consuming units. This will get rid of 25 energy per cast and does not have cooldown. 2) Change feedback so that it cannot kill a unit, but it will leave a unit at 1hp if it has more energy than hp. 3) Change feedback so that it drains 75% of a unit's energy, and still deals damage equal to the amount of energy drained. 4) Change feedback so that it no longer deals damage to enemy units, but the high templar absorbs the energy for it's own use. 5) Change feedback so it still drains the energy and does damage over time instead of instantly.
Personally, I feel that a "deplete energy" spell would be good, as it will offer control and decision making to the opponent - players can deliberately keep the energy below the unit's hp so that it doesn't get instagibbed. Feedback is fine, it just forces some micro interactions. It's a spell and you need to be aware of its existence and micro around it. Like abduct, widow mines, and everything else in the game. The problem is that you can't micro against it - if your spellcaster gets within 9 range of a HT and happens to have a lot of energy, then it is pretty much going to instantly die as long as your opponent clicks on that unit. Having a deplete energy skill would make it more tactical instead of currently which is pretty much luck based.
I wouldn't say luck based at all.. I'd say an emp hitting a clump och HT's is more "luck based" but only because the protoss wasn't moving the HT correctly. Either way I feel that feedback is a total necessity in the late-game for protoss.
If we're talking medivacs getting instagibbed when dropping there are ways to get around it. e.g. before dropping make sure to stim your marines/marauders so that the medivac depletes some of its energy. A fairly common scene in pro-games (or at least used to be).
If we're talking vipers I'd suggest what some other have already said. Spread them out and be careful where you take your fights.. Vipers are already super deadly and making them "better" by nerfing another unit isn't the way forward imo.
|
On May 06 2015 07:19 weikor wrote: However, on the same note, EMP drains all energy AND removes shield - making it effective against every protoss unit.
I was under the impression that EMP removed 100 shields and 100 energy? A full energy HT is still an able spellcaster if an EMP hits it? I'll be a very happy terran if this was changed back to a full drain for LotV! :D
|
Change feedback so that it must be channeled to drain energy, may at a rate of 40 energy/second
|
Sounds like another foreigner terran whine thread, congrats.
|
feedback is a ridiculously broken spell. Having it with quite inexpensive unit, costing so low energy (50?), and being so easy to use (long range, multicast etc), its incredibly imbalanced. What i mean is: with any spell caster other then ghost 1v1 vs HT you lose. you cant kill HT with fungal instantaneously, you cant kill HT with Abduct instantaneously, seeker missile, you name it. Everything but EMP does not defend against 1 quick cast that can disable all your spellcasters (and even other units, like medivacs) almost immediately. I'm saying this because i was abusing this ability a lot and its just oh so easy until you get there into masters level. on Pro level we dont have that many spellcasters involved in pvz pvp play, and in tvp thankfully there is a good counter.
|
|
|
|