Cyclones and their potential
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parkufarku
882 Posts
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Lexender
Mexico2611 Posts
On May 30 2015 13:50 parkufarku wrote: I think it's pretty much understood that Cyclones are a very strong unit right now. Ability to shoot air, strong damage, relatively cheap and thus can be massed. What do you guys feel about the range & its movement speed? Anyone else think that the ability to kite and it's strong stats / usage makes the unit very similar to Warhound 2.0? Do we think Cyclones will make it out of the beta unscathed? What can we do to really tweak it? I'm all about lowering the range or the movement speed on it, but we can leave the damage intact. Or cut out its ability to shoot air. Mass Cyclones even beats out mass Carriers, which doesn't make sense, seeing a low cost cheap unit beat out a expensive high tier unit. Thats a very narrow way to see it, you have to see cyclone not as a lone unit but as a part of the mech army. Speed and ability to shoot air are the 2 things I would left untouched. They need to be far weaker (dps and hitpoints) have less range (not sure how much but some) and cheaper (so they are easy to make but very supply inneficient when massed) Mech doesn't need another slow high damage unit (specially since they gutted the posibility to add air early on) it needs a fast unit that can be around on the map. As for the AA, I think they should leave it, there are far too many hardcounter, air vs mech is already one in HotS and we have combined upgrades there. Also they should require vision to keep the lock on, that would add TONS of counter micro to it. | ||
parkufarku
882 Posts
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Korakys
New Zealand272 Posts
They should be strong versus air and weak versus ground. That would complement the hellion too. I'm not a big fan of the way the lock-on mechanic works either. | ||
StalkerFang
Australia68 Posts
Not sure this changes the overarching questions about what the unit should accomplish for mech but at least it makes the unit a bit more interesting and hopefully adds some more control requirements. | ||
_indigo_
Slovenia171 Posts
Oh, and that "other air unit" is trash in AA mode. | ||
Coffeee
Switzerland17 Posts
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crown77
United States157 Posts
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Gaskal
Canada241 Posts
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nesmah
France26 Posts
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
Also, they're quite strong early game, would be nice to see perhaps an HP nerf or something. | ||
Beelzebub1
997 Posts
Where the tank buffs guys? O_o I despise the lock on mechanic, this is not a MOBA, please stop introducing MOBA like features into this game, they got away with it a tad with the whole Kog Maw/Ravager ability because at least it takes micro and skill to perform, but this lock on thing is just heinously noob friendly and bad bad bad to watch. It's fast, it micro's 50% FOR you with lock on, and it has no meaningful micro interactions (think Reapers and Queens, Hellions and Zerglings ect.) with other units besides against maybe Phoenixs and Stalkers. | ||
crown77
United States157 Posts
The other thing I wanted to ask is instead of changing the cyclone would changing the economy or other aspects of the game help make this unit feel more at home in legacy? The other two races could out produce the cyclone heavy meching terran with more disposable units like zerglings and zealots if they were defending early pushes. How do you feel about adding a chance to miss type dynamic to "fix" the cyclone. What if the further a unit was from the cyclone the greater the chance to miss was? What this could mean for lotv is that you could actually runaway from engagements without losing half of your roach or stalker army; consider a dropship that narrowly escapes into fow. | ||
Allred
United States352 Posts
On May 31 2015 04:48 crown77 wrote: How do you feel about adding a chance to miss type dynamic to "fix" the cyclone. What if the further a unit was from the cyclone the greater the chance to miss was? What this could mean for lotv is that you could actually runaway from engagements without losing half of your roach or stalker army; consider a dropship that narrowly escapes into fow. It seems as if blizzard has wanted to make units more reliable. hence attacking a unit in trees or on a cliff made it so you did not always hit. this is not true in sc2. adding the chance to not hit makes the unit less reliable. | ||
crown77
United States157 Posts
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neptunusfisk
2286 Posts
On May 31 2015 03:22 Beelzebub1 wrote: They need to reverse the last set of changes, this unit should be an anti air dedicated early game and the anti ground scales later on in the game, or else why even build the damn thing? That's the whole purpose of the Hellion and the Tank, Tanks hold the ground and hellions go out and secure map control. When I first thought of Cyclones I was really hoping they be almost a mobile missile turret for mech so they wouldn't have to rely on Thors (slow) or Viking fleet (hard to split your factory expenditures by building a million starports to pump out lots of them) both of which leads to death balling. Where the tank buffs guys? O_o I despise the lock on mechanic, this is not a MOBA, please stop introducing MOBA like features into this game, they got away with it a tad with the whole Kog Maw/Ravager ability because at least it takes micro and skill to perform, but this lock on thing is just heinously noob friendly and bad bad bad to watch. It's fast, it micro's 50% FOR you with lock on, and it has no meaningful micro interactions (think Reapers and Queens, Hellions and Zerglings ect.) with other units besides against maybe Phoenixs and Stalkers. I don't think you know how mobas work | ||
XXXSmOke
United States1333 Posts
On May 30 2015 13:50 parkufarku wrote: I think it's pretty much understood that Cyclones are a very strong unit right now. Ability to shoot air, strong damage, relatively cheap and thus can be massed. What do you guys feel about the range & its movement speed? Anyone else think that the ability to kite and it's strong stats / usage makes the unit very similar to Warhound 2.0? Do we think Cyclones will make it out of the beta unscathed? What can we do to really tweak it? I'm all about lowering the range or the movement speed on it, but we can leave the damage intact. Or cut out its ability to shoot air. Mass Cyclones even beats out mass Carriers, which doesn't make sense, seeing a low cost cheap unit beat out a expensive high tier unit. Mass Marines, beats mass carriers as well. That's how it is supposed to work, | ||
HallofPain4444
Japan71 Posts
With mech and air upgrades split I don't see why Cyclone needs any further nerf, it would make this already Zerg favored game unplayable. Earlly game adepts, Mass Carriers, Parasitic bomb, Mass Mutas are the things that seriously need nerfing imo. | ||
winsonsonho
Korea (South)143 Posts
If this unit makes it into the multiplayer with this mechanic and even a number of nerfs then I will be speechless.. LOTV is already doomed from reaching anywhere near its potential in my opinion. A number of terrible units exist that Blizz will sadly never remove (at least they've rightly nerfed a few into uselessness - swarm host, collosus). The mechanics and implementation like Warp Gate, Forcefield, Concussive Shells and Fungal. The messed economy. Those fun deathballs and hard-counters. But a unit like the Cyclone is laughable. It may seem like I'm very negative, but actually I'm very positive that free-to-play Starbow can reach its potential :D | ||
dust7
199 Posts
On June 01 2015 02:18 winsonsonho wrote: I don't understand how people are looking past the fact that the Cyclone can move and shoot at the same time. Blizzard tried it with the Diamondback and that was ridiculous, why are they trying to implement it again? I still think it doesn't belong on the Phoenix, but at least it is somewhat passable to a small degree on a flying unit that has a limited role. It takes away any real skill required in using a units movement and attack characteristics together. Well, we wanted moving shot right? This is what Blizzard thinks we meant. | ||
RoomOfMush
1296 Posts
On June 01 2015 02:18 winsonsonho wrote: I don't understand how people are looking past the fact that the Cyclone can move and shoot at the same time. Blizzard tried it with the Diamondback and that was ridiculous, why are they trying to implement it again? I still think it doesn't belong on the Phoenix, but at least it is somewhat passable to a small degree on a flying unit that has a limited role. It takes away any real skill required in using a units movement and attack characteristics together. Please take a look at the Storm Hawk from my SC2 mod CustomCraft: + Show Spoiler + this unit can move and shoot, but only at targets right in front of it. In addition to that its range is fairly limited. This makes micro pretty intense in my opinion as you have to time your movement just right. If you watch the video you will see how I screw the micro up big time, my Storm Hawks keep shooting at protoss buildings instead of the Zealots because my timings are all wrong. Maybe you might think that moving shot is not that bad if implemented in a different way, what do you say? | ||
Hider
Denmark9237 Posts
this unit can move and shoot, but only at targets right in front of it. In addition to that its range is fairly limited. This makes micro pretty intense in my opinion as you have to time your movement just right. If you watch the video you will see how I screw the micro up big time, my Storm Hawks keep shooting at protoss buildings instead of the Zealots because my timings are all wrong. Can't help but feel this concept is more of a "hard to learn, hard to master"-design. I think having to face the absolute correct angle before your units shoot makes it a bit too complicated. | ||
RoomOfMush
1296 Posts
On June 01 2015 03:53 Hider wrote: Can't help but feel this concept is more of a "hard to learn, hard to master"-design. I think having to face the absolute correct angle before your units shoot makes it a bit too complicated. They can shoot at targets within a 90° arc in front of them. This unit will always get a shot off and deal damage, but maybe it will auto-attack a low priority target instead of what you would have liked. If your micro is suboptimal you will still deal damage, but the damage might be more on buildings or cheap combat units instead of workers or other high priority targets. But if you micro is good then you can control the damage you deal and snipe workers / high templars / etc. But this unit is not just for micro intensive harassment, it also has a 1:1 resources to hitpoint relation and costs only 1 supply. This means that, although individually these units die very quickly, a big mass of them is comparatively beefy and a cost effective meat shield for more important units. Furthermore they can attack air units too, in combination with their high movement speed they can keep pace with mutalisks and drops or take out overlords in the early game; you can be out on the map looking for air targets to snipe. | ||
JCoto
Spain574 Posts
On June 01 2015 03:20 RoomOfMush wrote: Please take a look at the Storm Hawk from my SC2 mod CustomCraft: + Show Spoiler + https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hIKJUyyI_w this unit can move and shoot, but only at targets right in front of it. In addition to that its range is fairly limited. This makes micro pretty intense in my opinion as you have to time your movement just right. If you watch the video you will see how I screw the micro up big time, my Storm Hawks keep shooting at protoss buildings instead of the Zealots because my timings are all wrong. Maybe you might think that moving shot is not that bad if implemented in a different way, what do you say? What you did there is simply taking vulture move-shot mechanic and implement it in a unit. Vultures rocked in BW, but I think that this kind of attack style makes little sense on any of the SC2 units we have, because it is meant to work well in a fast-moving unit with air-like movement with acceleration/deceleration. Sadly the only ground unit that moves fast in SC2 is the Hellion and it doesn't fire projectiles. I would like it to had been implemented again on "soul Hunters" from SC2 alpha, which looked quite vultur-ish. I think that it could be interesting to be tested with Cyclones, but that type of micro means that units will get exposed quite more easily, as you balance high-speed with low ranges to prevent infinite kiting. I'm not very sure about making mid/mid-lategame units easy to get exposed due to the nature of their attack, since a bad move could mean that you are going to get a buch of expensive units exposed and sniped or sourrounded relatively easy. But if you want my opinion, I would like it to be implemented on Sentries just for random funs. | ||
parkufarku
882 Posts
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winsonsonho
Korea (South)143 Posts
On June 01 2015 03:20 RoomOfMush wrote: Please take a look at the Storm Hawk from my SC2 mod CustomCraft: + Show Spoiler + https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hIKJUyyI_w this unit can move and shoot, but only at targets right in front of it. In addition to that its range is fairly limited. This makes micro pretty intense in my opinion as you have to time your movement just right. If you watch the video you will see how I screw the micro up big time, my Storm Hawks keep shooting at protoss buildings instead of the Zealots because my timings are all wrong. Maybe you might think that moving shot is not that bad if implemented in a different way, what do you say? That does make it a little more skill intensive but not enough in my opinion. And that movement just looked too jerky, I got somewhat Storm Hawk car sick ;P With moving shots a unit will always shoot at its highest rate if it is within shooting distance. This means that the players skill in switching between shooting and moving will always be below optimal for a non moving shot unit. The better the player can control the unit the closer it is to shooting at its optimal rate, so a better player can always get that little extra out. Your idea is a hybrid, and I think there is no reason to have any sort of moving shot in a competitive RTS just for the sake of diversity. Blizzard mostly likes to do things their way and try totally new 'cool' things. That's great sometimes but often simple, strong and proven mechanics are better. Blizzard are a stubborn and average design team. Things will not get better than WOL or HOTS if they don't become a lot more humble. They seriously need to start learning from their mistakes, start making bigger changes, start listening to the general consensus and stop pretending that they're actually communicating openly and honestly with the community. | ||
FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
On June 01 2015 06:25 winsonsonho wrote: That does make it a little more skill intensive but not enough in my opinion. And that movement just looked too jerky, I got somewhat Storm Hawk car sick ;P With moving shots a unit will always shoot at its highest rate if it is within shooting distance. This means that the players skill in switching between shooting and moving will always be below optimal for a non moving shot unit. The better the player can control the unit the closer it is to shooting at its optimal rate, so a better player can always get that little extra out. Your idea is a hybrid, and I think there is no reason to have any sort of moving shot in a competitive RTS just for the sake of diversity. Blizzard mostly likes to do things their way and try totally new 'cool' things. That's great sometimes but often simple, strong and proven mechanics are better. Blizzard are a stubborn and average design team. Things will not get better than WOL or HOTS if they don't become a lot more humble. They seriously need to start learning from their mistakes, start making bigger changes, start listening to the general consensus and stop pretending that they're actually communicating openly and honestly with the community. For SC2 yes, but vultures were super "jerky" in BW. His unit seems reminiscent of a vulture. | ||
winsonsonho
Korea (South)143 Posts
On June 01 2015 12:11 FabledIntegral wrote: For SC2 yes, but vultures were super "jerky" in BW. His unit seems reminiscent of a vulture. I think it's those lights in the front and how it shoots that makes it look super jerky. Vultures are easier on my eyes.. | ||
ScienceRob
United States382 Posts
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The_Masked_Shrimp
425 Posts
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TurboMaN
Germany925 Posts
TvT = bad, marines & tanks are better TvP = bad, Protoss goes air, you are dead or at least taking heavy damage TvZ = bad, Lib + MMM is better The only thing I could see it work is the early game in TvP if it could attack air. I'm curious if any Pros will actually use this unit. | ||
crown77
United States157 Posts
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TedCruz2016
Hong Kong271 Posts
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Wildmoon
Thailand4189 Posts
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TedCruz2016
Hong Kong271 Posts
On May 31 2015 00:52 Gaskal wrote: This just makes me miss Goliaths more Sorry, Goliath was slain by David. | ||
jinjin5000
Korea (South)1266 Posts
Cyclone lock on should be air only imo. Autoattack for ground only and lockon for air. | ||
TedCruz2016
Hong Kong271 Posts
On July 22 2015 13:59 jinjin5000 wrote: I find it bit iffy that lurkers are better than it was in BW statwise and have no friendly fire and burrows extremely quickly yet tanks aren't getting as much love and isn't really that great in lotv :/ Cyclone lock on should be air only imo. Autoattack for ground only and lockon for air. It's bad against mass T1 units, and it takes high APM to kite without taking significant damage because you have to manage other units while kiting. | ||
RaiZ
2813 Posts
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
Talking TvZ specifically, if the Cyclone stays like that the way to play antiMech ZvT is going to be mass Swarm Hosts (the strong LotV ones) in the lategame again. It's the only unit that cannot be endlessly kited or gets roasted by hellions and brings enough range to the table to reasonably damage Cyclones. This is obviously also a problem with the swarm host which is currently a really efficient unit in LotV again. | ||
lolias
35 Posts
On July 22 2015 13:59 jinjin5000 wrote: I find it bit iffy that lurkers are better than it was in BW statwise and have no friendly fire and burrows extremely quickly yet tanks aren't getting as much love and isn't really that great in lotv :/ Cyclone lock on should be air only imo. Autoattack for ground only and lockon for air. Lurker are X times worse than their are in Brood War. Tanks outrange them, tanks are more mobil, cyclines outrange them, liberator outrange them. Bio is better in EVERY way. More mobile, more beefy. I havent seen a single pro match won with lurker. And even on ladder they are highly situational. Lurker stayed pretty much the same, besides being later due to hydra lair tech. And about the Cyclone: Its just a boring kite unit. It doesnt require much micro, it just requires attention. Terran should get somothing decent on their Raven. | ||
jinjin5000
Korea (South)1266 Posts
On July 22 2015 15:13 TedCruz2016 wrote: It's bad against mass T1 units, and it takes high APM to kite without taking significant damage because you have to manage other units while kiting. Are you answering someone else or me? Seems like it's a mistake quote On July 26 2015 00:02 lolias wrote: Lurker are X times worse than their are in Brood War. Tanks outrange them, tanks are more mobil, cyclines outrange them, liberator outrange them. Bio is better in EVERY way. More mobile, more beefy. I havent seen a single pro match won with lurker. And even on ladder they are highly situational. Lurker stayed pretty much the same, besides being later due to hydra lair tech. And about the Cyclone: Its just a boring kite unit. It doesnt require much micro, it just requires attention. Terran should get somothing decent on their Raven. Huh? Lurkers are really powerful right now. It does 20+10 damage while having default 9 rang,e I guess, to make up for later morph with hydra den. Lurkers straight line damage is really fast in lotv and don't offer much in dodging it because how fast it hits. It his really fast in game and I am seeing people who try medivac pick up to dodge get hit instead of being able to move out of way. It also burrows really fast in seconds and is more tanky than siege tank. Unless medivac is involved (which I think is silly being able to pick up sieged and dropping sieged tanks) no way lurker is less mobile than siege tank. And if you are talking about dealing with other units: tanks got similar counters as well. Also, lack of mobile detection from terran makes it situationally more powerful as instead of science vessel, only option is gimped raven that is far too slow to even keep up with bio army, which even if it is beefier, is dealt with lurkers incredibly well from what I've seen. Maps are generally smaller too. I am just iffed cyclone overshadows it and balance team seems to focus more on cyclone than tank. | ||
[PkF] Wire
France24187 Posts
On July 26 2015 00:50 jinjin5000 wrote: I am just iffed cyclone overshadows it and balance team seems to focus more on cyclone than tank. Yeah I find it worrying too, especially since a cyclone with weak anti-ground (far weaker than what it has now) and reasonable mid range anti-air would make a decent complement for a tank that needs to shine again. | ||
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