Protoss has had some serious issues in the past, and theyre definitely the most hated and loved class at the same time. Im here to explain why - even if you hate protoss - we need to be very vocal about fixing the deficits protoss has.
Ill give you two examples that resulted from protoss beeing lackluster in some departments.
a) Vs - ZERG The phoenix range upgrade
Protoss always lacked good Anti air. There was a time when protoss could do NOTHING against a well controlled muta ball. This was somewhere in the last third of WOL. Blizzard couldnt introduce new units or synergies - so because protoss had actually hit an unbeatable wall - had to introduce the hardest counter to mutas in the game. Protoss needed a unit that outranges, outdamages, and outmaneuvers a Mutalisk.
This is bad design, lets face it - starcraft shoudlnt be about hardcounters - but protoss needed one to stay competetive.
b) vs TERRAN - the mothership core.
Protoss was also lacking a unit that could deal with siege tanks and marines in the midgame. The 1/1/1 was too powerful and blizzard tried to balance it. So they introduced the hardest counter to 1/1/1 in the game I think its widely agreed that the Mothership core, while it does fix the issues is not an elegant fix to protoss early game. Now were stuck with the MSC around which units are balanced.\
The future?, Protoss beeing slightly weaker in beta at the moment means nothing. But if blizzard does go through with the game as is - were going to run into problems like protoss having difficulty expanding, base defence and more. Which is going to result in dirty and imbalanced fixes and harcrounters.
I'll completely agree if you add the sentry, too. I'd rather have raw protoss strength like in BW rather than weaker gateway units because of sentry which could be either super awesome or fail horribly.
The hardest counter to mutas in the game... if there was one game change I could make, it would be giving Toss help vs mutas. I'll trade phoenix in P vs Z for anything. A turret, mine, thor, marine, anything.... I'm desperate. Give me anything for the worthless phoenix.
On June 06 2015 08:00 playa wrote: The hardest counter to mutas in the game... if there was one game change I could make, it would be giving Toss help vs mutas. I'll trade phoenix in P vs Z for anything. A turret, mine, thor, marine, anything.... I'm desperate. Give me anything for the worthless phoenix.
How about make some archons and get storm? Phoenix is better than turrets.
On June 06 2015 08:00 darkness wrote: I'll completely agree if you add the sentry, too. I'd rather have raw protoss strength like in BW rather than weaker gateway units because of sentry which could be either super awesome or fail horribly.
These arent the only 2 examples there are, but i think they show how its important to blizzard that all 3 races are evenly balanced and performing. If core issues arent adressed now, in the beta - we will end up with some pretty awful fixes in the future.
On June 06 2015 08:00 playa wrote: The hardest counter to mutas in the game... if there was one game change I could make, it would be giving Toss help vs mutas. I'll trade phoenix in P vs Z for anything. A turret, mine, thor, marine, anything.... I'm desperate. Give me anything for the worthless phoenix.
well, i dont mean its the most effective counter to it (since you need stargates, build time etc.). But on paper blizzard let it a) outrange, b) outdamage c) outmaneuver It goes far beyond the x is cost efficient vs y design that we expect to find. like hellions are cost efficient vs marines
On June 06 2015 08:00 playa wrote: The hardest counter to mutas in the game... if there was one game change I could make, it would be giving Toss help vs mutas. I'll trade phoenix in P vs Z for anything. A turret, mine, thor, marine, anything.... I'm desperate. Give me anything for the worthless phoenix.
How about make some archons and get storm? Phoenix is better than turrets.
When is the last time an archon was able to be in range to attack a muta? Storm? I had no idea tl posters were still playing WoL. Behind the times man.
He is right though, phoenix ranged are the hardest counter to mutalisk in the game. Thor, mines, fungal growth can be avoided with good control and can create some nice dynamics, but if your mutalisk are spotted and a phoenix squad is coming and is well controlled, all your mutalisk are dead. Of course zerg can win sometimes with big transition or well hidden spire tech, but if you don't scout it/you don't pressure so he can't bank to do this big muta switch then it is completely the protoss fault if he loses.
This is an unfair statement. It requires good control to make sure your Phoenixes actually succeed in battering down the Mutalisks, especially if they have Infestors, Queens, or Hydralisks as part of their composition. And in a slightly less exciting, but more stable way, if they have a flock of Corruptors as well. Mutalisks will often outnumber the Phoenixes such that they can slaughter them if they close the distance. And with their acceleration being no lower than the Phoenixes, they can really easily turn around and close the distance if the Protoss player looks away for a few seconds to macro. They actively soak up players' APM on both sides, depending on how much each player is willing to risk. Granted, I think that the passive range buff on the Phoenixes in HotS would be better of reverted for LotV, but Protoss would first need another way of dealing with mass Mutas.
On June 06 2015 08:41 Vanadiel wrote: He is right though, phoenix ranged are the hardest counter to mutalisk in the game. Thor, mines, fungal growth can be avoided with good control and can create some nice dynamics, but if your mutalisk are spotted and a phoenix squad is coming and is well controlled, all your mutalisk are dead. Of course zerg can win sometimes with big transition or well hidden spire tech, but if you don't scout it/you don't pressure so he can't bank to do this big muta switch then it is completely the protoss fault if he loses.
Omg, Colossi are the hardest of hard counters to hydras. Good thing Zerg has vipers. What if Toss didn't have HT, though. Well, welcome to using phoenix and having nothing else.
On June 06 2015 08:41 Vanadiel wrote: He is right though, phoenix ranged are the hardest counter to mutalisk in the game. Thor, mines, fungal growth can be avoided with good control and can create some nice dynamics, but if your mutalisk are spotted and a phoenix squad is coming and is well controlled, all your mutalisk are dead. Of course zerg can win sometimes with big transition or well hidden spire tech, but if you don't scout it/you don't pressure so he can't bank to do this big muta switch then it is completely the protoss fault if he loses.
Omg, Colossi are the hardest of hard counters to hydras. Good thing Zerg has vipers. What if Toss didn't have HT, though. Well, welcome to using phoenix and having nothing else.
I used to go mutas everygame, but every top protoss just rolls over it now. 3-4 archons templars and stalkers make mutas not able to harass and they are able to walk across the map and kill you. If this does not work for you, you are simply not good enough with map awareness (from playing you and killing you in 5 minutes everytime I know this is the case). I have no idea how you whine about mutas when you have a unit that hard counters it to a point that 4 phoenix beats 50 mutas if microed and no other units.
The better question is how do you deal with pure stalkers.
On June 06 2015 08:00 playa wrote: The hardest counter to mutas in the game... if there was one game change I could make, it would be giving Toss help vs mutas. I'll trade phoenix in P vs Z for anything. A turret, mine, thor, marine, anything.... I'm desperate. Give me anything for the worthless phoenix.
well, i dont mean its the most effective counter to it (since you need stargates, build time etc.). But on paper blizzard let it a) outrange, b) outdamage c) outmaneuver It goes far beyond the x is cost efficient vs y design that we expect to find. like hellions are cost efficient vs marines
This is just silliness. On paper, one phoenix always beats one mutalisk. On paper, one thor beats a marine. Theorycrafting is useless, especially if you're ignoring all of the other factors in the game such as the effects of queens, fungal, corruptors, hydras. Hell, small groups of mutas could still trade with phoenixes decently if the Protoss player wasn't taking very close care to stack the phoenixes and keep exactly the 6 range distance from them; in fact, this micro was so difficult that Blizzard even gave phoenixes an additional +1 range in HotS. If we look at FACTS, at how that change actually turned out, it was 100% a good change that balanced out nicely and rarely made the Protoss player dominant against muta flocks.
On the other hand, I think the Mothership Core was a very convoluted idea to give Protoss more mobility and early game defense that backfired really hard because it just had too many offensive capabilities too. As far as being wary of Protoss changes, the biggest threats are changes to compensate for the weaknesses of gateway units; that is, changes that are specifically designed to allow warpgates to continue functioning as they always have. The design of warpgates has been a disaster ever since the beginning, and continuing to band-aid fix it with things like the MSC or the void ray change are just further exacerbating the problem.
On June 06 2015 08:41 Vanadiel wrote: He is right though, phoenix ranged are the hardest counter to mutalisk in the game. Thor, mines, fungal growth can be avoided with good control and can create some nice dynamics, but if your mutalisk are spotted and a phoenix squad is coming and is well controlled, all your mutalisk are dead. Of course zerg can win sometimes with big transition or well hidden spire tech, but if you don't scout it/you don't pressure so he can't bank to do this big muta switch then it is completely the protoss fault if he loses.
Omg, Colossi are the hardest of hard counters to hydras. Good thing Zerg has vipers. What if Toss didn't have HT, though. Well, welcome to using phoenix and having nothing else.
I used to go mutas everygame, but every top protoss just rolls over it now. 3-4 archons templars and stalkers make mutas not able to harass and they are able to walk across the map and kill you. If this does not work for you, you are simply not good enough with map awareness (from playing you and killing you in 5 minutes everytime I know this is the case). I have no idea how you whine about mutas when you have a unit that hard counters it to a point that 4 phoenix beats 50 mutas if microed and no other units.
The better question is how do you deal with pure stalkers.
Map awareness, lol. You the guy that I hear "was" a hacker. Tell me what you know about map awareness.
Protoss has had some serious issues in the past, and theyre definitely the most hated and loved class at the same time. Im here to explain why - even if you hate protoss - we need to be very vocal about fixing the deficits protoss has.
Ill give you two examples that resulted from protoss beeing lackluster in some departments.
a) Vs - ZERG The phoenix range upgrade
Protoss always lacked good Anti air. There was a time when protoss could do NOTHING against a well controlled muta ball. This was somewhere in the last third of WOL. Blizzard couldnt introduce new units or synergies - so because protoss had actually hit an unbeatable wall - had to introduce the hardest counter to mutas in the game. Protoss needed a unit that outranges, outdamages, and outmaneuvers a Mutalisk.
This is bad design, lets face it - starcraft shoudlnt be about hardcounters - but protoss needed one to stay competetive.
b) vs TERRAN - the mothership core.
Protoss was also lacking a unit that could deal with siege tanks and marines in the midgame. The 1/1/1 was too powerful and blizzard tried to balance it. So they introduced the hardest counter to 1/1/1 in the game I think its widely agreed that the Mothership core, while it does fix the issues is not an elegant fix to protoss early game. Now were stuck with the MSC around which units are balanced.\
The future?, Protoss beeing slightly weaker in beta at the moment means nothing. But if blizzard does go through with the game as is - were going to run into problems like protoss having difficulty expanding, base defence and more. Which is going to result in dirty and imbalanced fixes and harcrounters.
Just rework protoss please.
Well, with this beginning, I think it would be good to attempt to bring up some other forms of poor design that Protoss has that forced them into these situations. The few I can think are:
c) vs Zerg, The Tempest Has Arrives - I think this is a much harder counter than the Phoenix was to the mutalisk. Like you said before, the Protoss lacks good 'reliable' anti-air. With the lost of the Vortex ability, in a similar fashion to what you said, the Protoss hit another an unbeatable wall that didn't have an easy fix. And so upon Blizzard entering HotS, retooled the Tempest from being a 'Mutaliks' Hard counter to a Broodlord hard counter.
D) vs Zerg Immortal's Last Stand
- Ah, I remember the Max Roach push in which Protoss only response for a good period was simply, wall-in, rush to Immortal, and depend on Force fields to both protect the Immortal and split the Roach force. Now, what exactly the issue that contributed this dilemma are a few different reasons, but at the least, it just another example of the state of the weak Gateway units and their ability to cost-effective during the early game. But as now, I doubt that's still an issue, but during my peak of interest in the game, this was what all the pros were doing. It was not fun to watch or play.
E) vs Protoss, Terran, Zerg War of the Worlds!!
- You can't talk about poor design without mentioning the Colossus. This unit is basically the KEY unit for Protoss ground army against any race's mid-late game ground force regardless of the situation or enemy composition all throughout WoL & Hots. It's not much of a choice, but a need that Protoss has to transition to them to stay in the game (which then force a binary response from the enemy). This unit should be the epitome of the core issue of Protoss' army, their gateway units don't transition well into the mid to late game
Now, I do realize that the High Templar is another alternative that many players build towards, but at the hard, it just shows how desperate Protoss are for splash damage.
F) vs Protoss, Terran, Zerg Learn to Adept
- I find it funny that I brought up the Colossus because Protoss heavily relied on them during the mid to late game to not die, but here in LotV, the same thing is basically happening to Protoss AGAIN but this time for the early to mid game. "Oh look, Protoss is struggling during the early game. Well then, let's give them a unit that basically counters every early units in the game".
Well, anyways, those are just some more things I personally think fits into what you brought up, and I think it would be a good idea to list on exactly what flaws you believe needs to be addressed with the rework. For example (within the spoilers. I'm hiding it because it's really not the main point of this post)
- Issue: Lack of reliability good anti-air - Reason to believe it's an issue: Mutalisk Flock, the Broodlord Siege - One possible solution: Split Stalker's attack into two, a ground attack & air attack. Improve air attack. Why I think the Stalker is idea is because one, they come from the Gateway, allowing Protoss to always have a fall-back in case Zerg make a sudden tech switch. A possible counter-nerf for the Stalker would then be to weaken the ground attack (this can be off-set by making the other gateway units more useful). - A different possible solution: Give Archon a way to reach their target quickly to perform their DPS. Though this has a lot of other balancing issues that I rather not go into. - A different possible solution: Give a Robo units the ability to attack Air Units. Seeing how the Colossus is worthless right now in the Lotv, I would think this is a good spot they can fill actually.
- Issue: Mid-game Field Presence - Reason to believe it's an issue: 1/1/1 push, the dependency of the MSC to survive, the general need to rush to final tier units - One possible solution: Improve the timing of which Zealot become viable like make Charge research-able at Cybernetic Core . A lot of the general issues I see Protoss have during the early to mid game is when the 'Stalker' can't deal with the problem, such as the 1/1/1 push, or Max Roach push, or like the new units such as the Cyclone & Adept. The Protoss is so heavily reliant on the Stalker for basically all it's DPS, it's really sad to see the Zealot be left in the dust and solve none of the Protoss' issues. Obviously a Zealot improvement won't solve the entire issue, but it does allow a fix in which you don't need a hard-counter to stay competitive (as in where the Adept is currently standing at). Heck, you can give them a 'second' upgrade at the twilight council (and maybe require a templar archive) to even help them be less dependent on large splash damage if it was needed.
Upon making fixes like those, you can then start reducing the hard-counters and then make more well-rounded units.
On June 06 2015 08:00 playa wrote: The hardest counter to mutas in the game... if there was one game change I could make, it would be giving Toss help vs mutas. I'll trade phoenix in P vs Z for anything. A turret, mine, thor, marine, anything.... I'm desperate. Give me anything for the worthless phoenix.
How about make some archons and get storm? Phoenix is better than turrets.
When is the last time an archon was able to be in range to attack a muta? Storm? I had no idea tl posters were still playing WoL. Behind the times man.
Some people play masters league but you're a silver noob and you don't get it, it's your problem. Stalkers/archons/storm is viable vs mass muta.
On June 06 2015 08:00 playa wrote: The hardest counter to mutas in the game... if there was one game change I could make, it would be giving Toss help vs mutas. I'll trade phoenix in P vs Z for anything. A turret, mine, thor, marine, anything.... I'm desperate. Give me anything for the worthless phoenix.
How about make some archons and get storm? Phoenix is better than turrets.
On June 06 2015 08:00 playa wrote: The hardest counter to mutas in the game... if there was one game change I could make, it would be giving Toss help vs mutas. I'll trade phoenix in P vs Z for anything. A turret, mine, thor, marine, anything.... I'm desperate. Give me anything for the worthless phoenix.
How about make some archons and get storm? Phoenix is better than turrets.
When is the last time an archon was able to be in range to attack a muta? Storm? I had no idea tl posters were still playing WoL. Behind the times man.
Some people play masters league but you're a silver noob and you don't get it, it's your problem. Stalkers/archons/storm is viable vs mass muta.
Really? We're going there? Weird that I'm silver league and currently top 16 GM at the same time. How about you? I'm sure that ignorance + thinking you know, when you clearly don't, is going to do you well.
Maelstrom (even if it only worked versus mutas) or my dream..... a science vessel would go a long ways towards fixing the problem.
In BW, I could make science vessels which owned every type of unit and could shut down mutas by themselves... Now I'm expected to invest a million minerals and gas in phoenix, to be able to kill some units before they get corruptors out, and then my huge investment is busy playing with itself, as it has no use; meanwhile, the other guy has 5+ bases and can make w/e he feels like with impunity.
Mutas fly faster now and have "insta regen." They're better now... Somehow what I described in BW wasn't considered imbalanced by anyone, yet some people are trying to tell me phoenix aren't just fine, but too good vs mutas. It's as if people only play in unit testers and choose their ideal situations...
On June 06 2015 07:49 weikor wrote: Protoss has had some serious issues in the past, and theyre definitely the most hated and loved class at the same time. Im here to explain why - even if you hate protoss - we need to be very vocal about fixing the deficits protoss has.
Ill give you two examples that resulted from protoss beeing lackluster in some departments.
a) Vs - ZERG The phoenix range upgrade
Protoss always lacked good Anti air. There was a time when protoss could do NOTHING against a well controlled muta ball. This was somewhere in the last third of WOL. Blizzard couldnt introduce new units or synergies - so because protoss had actually hit an unbeatable wall - had to introduce the hardest counter to mutas in the game. Protoss needed a unit that outranges, outdamages, and outmaneuvers a Mutalisk.
This is bad design, lets face it - starcraft shoudlnt be about hardcounters - but protoss needed one to stay competetive.
I'm all for everything you've said needs to changed, but I'd like to say the Muta ball was solved in WOL, and the solution was far more elegant than Phoenixes. The more exciting and better designed solution to Phoenixes countering Muta's already existed in WOL.
Phoenixes worked against Mutalisks in WOL, but the problem was that they transition into nothing. So a Zerg would get Mutalisks, you'd build 12 Phoenixes and kill the Mutas, then they'd max on Roach/Hydra and steamroll you.
As Day[9] and LiquidHero showed, the real solution to mass Muta in WOL was Blink Stalkers and High Templar. Storm gave Protoss powerful AOE that would wear down the cloud.over time. You'd defend with Blink Stalkers and cannons until you could tech up and put a few High Templar in mineral lines with cannons, then move out. Storms prevented counter harassment from Lings and Mutas, as every storm that landed on the Mutalisks further weakened the cloud as it did damage that would take a long time to heal.
Having a slower more powerful army (Blink Stalkers/Archons/High Templar) fighting against a less powerful but much more mobile army (Lings/Mutas) makes for awesome game play. That is why Marine/Medivac/Tank vs Ling/Bling/Muta was so great.
But then Blizzard ruined it in HOTS... they decided that Muta's needed to have really high regeneration. Not only did this kill Marine/Medivac/Tank (and force Terran into Widow Mines, which require far less skill than Tanks), it killed Blink Stalkers and High Templar, because Storms no longer wore down the cloud of Mutas, because Mutas regenerated health so quickly. So Mutas would harass, get hit by a Storm and return soon after healing and harass more. Storm isn't effective anymore, because it won't kill properly controlled Mutalisks.
So instead of actually having to properly position your units and have some skill to counter Mutalisks, you just build the hard counter. It is really sad SC2 has gone this way.
I would agree that zerg was able to completely dominate late WoL due to their mastery of the QQ meta, but I'm not sure that the QQ meta is still the prevailing meta for racial dominance in LotV