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It was said so many times. I posting this in hopes that someone knows about it, or blizzard reads this and says something.
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/17222794/legacy-of-the-void-multiplayer-development-update-december-17-2014-12-17-2014
Infestor ability removal + add? Aggressive Mutation was only really effective when combined with Zerglings, due to the fact that ability provides a flat damage buff. At the same time, we also didn’t want to make a general upgrade that just generally buffs all Zerg ground units. If we feel that the buff its providing Zergling damage is needed and is good for the late game, we can just buff their Tier 3 attack speed upgrade. Therefore, we’re looking for other areas where the Infestor can be utilized.
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/17944912/legacy-of-the-void-multiplayer-development-update-february-12-2015-2-12-2015 Infestor
The Infestor ability vs. mass air units has been moved to the Viper. We want to explore something else with the Infestor that is cool to have instead of Neural Parasite, while also giving a bit more of a core role to the Viper. We also thought that having this ability alongside Fungal Growth wasn’t right because of how well the two abilities synergize, so we wanted to explore moving this ability to a different unit. This way, depending on unit composition, we can see different scenarios where the abilities might be used separately or in combination.
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I'd say move parasitic bomb from viper to infestor and let it affect both ground and air. Viper consume and being so mobile in affecting air makes it bit broken, with it stacking and having both ground and air utility in binding cloud/abduct.
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On June 26 2015 05:11 jinjin5000 wrote: I'd say move parasitic bomb from viper to infestor and let it affect both ground and air. Viper consume and being so mobile in affecting air makes it bit broken, with it stacking and having both ground and air utility in binding cloud/abduct.
It would be to powerful vs bio ( imagine irradiate ) and useless vs air, there is a reason to have it on vipers, its on hive tech and you can easily hit air units from a decent range, it would be hard to use it as Infestor,
There was also a reasoning that blizz didnt allow this on infestor, they said that fungall growth + parasitic bomb is to strong, and it should require to be on separated casters if you want that devastating ability.
I would much rather they give Infestor a support ability to help Zerg armies.
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On June 26 2015 05:22 ZergLingShepherd1 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2015 05:11 jinjin5000 wrote: I'd say move parasitic bomb from viper to infestor and let it affect both ground and air. Viper consume and being so mobile in affecting air makes it bit broken, with it stacking and having both ground and air utility in binding cloud/abduct. It would be to powerful vs bio ( imagine irradiate ) and useless vs air, there is a reason to have it on vipers, its on hive tech and you can easily hit air units from a decent range, it would be hard to use it as Infestor, There was also a reasoning that blizz didnt allow this on infestor, they said that fungall growth + parasitic bomb is to strong, and it should require to be on separated casters if you want that devastating ability. I would much rather they give Infestor a support ability to help Zerg armies.
I meant they replace fungal with parasitic bomb. Viper is unreasonably versatile and strong now. It is already great unit that was mobile and controlled ground and high value targets-giving it jack of all trade to end all is way too strong of a caster.
I'd rather much see zerg have better A2A. Parasitic bomb completely blows air out of water especially with consumes.
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On June 26 2015 05:27 jinjin5000 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2015 05:22 ZergLingShepherd1 wrote:On June 26 2015 05:11 jinjin5000 wrote: I'd say move parasitic bomb from viper to infestor and let it affect both ground and air. Viper consume and being so mobile in affecting air makes it bit broken, with it stacking and having both ground and air utility in binding cloud/abduct. It would be to powerful vs bio ( imagine irradiate ) and useless vs air, there is a reason to have it on vipers, its on hive tech and you can easily hit air units from a decent range, it would be hard to use it as Infestor, There was also a reasoning that blizz didnt allow this on infestor, they said that fungall growth + parasitic bomb is to strong, and it should require to be on separated casters if you want that devastating ability. I would much rather they give Infestor a support ability to help Zerg armies. I meant they replace fungal with parasitic bomb. Viper is unreasonably versatile and strong now. It is already great unit that was mobile and controlled ground and high value targets-giving it jack of all trade to end all is way too strong of a caster. I'd rather much see zerg have better A2A. Parasitic bomb completely blows air out of water especially with consumes.
Im all for it man... but this will be to strong vs Terran Bio. Vipers to fungall bio and blind cloud them LOL, unless you mean the remove of Fungall Growth and that is not okay. And we still have the useless NP on Infestor so yeah i want that gone to cuz its never used.
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What IF:
• Abduct gets removed from the game. Because since abduct was introduced, Protoss generally only plays mass gateway or air. Colossus gets hardcountered by this spell and in LotV Colossus in heavily nerfed.
• Viper gets Neural parasite instead of abduct. Right now neural is not used at all but in an air unit that can be positioned better and with a longer range neural could see its use.
• Feedback nerfed to 0,5 dmg per mana (50% nerf) so this spell doesn't hard counter all spellcasters. Design where you only need to get one unit to totally disable the other is not very good. Now, atleast, feedback would need to be casted 2 times to get the same damage.
• Infestor would need a new spell to make it an interesting tech choice. Maybe simply buff infested terrans somehow - it's nothing wrong if the spellcaster has only 2 spells that are useful (same as HT).
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I like Neural Parasite and they gave it a +1 range buff. There's so much new stuff for Zerg that it overshadows this buff, but I think Neural has a place. Infested Terran is still a meh ability for me, like Snipe was.
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Remove Infested Terran and replace it with a scourge like anti air ability? I actually like Neural Parasite as well, if it's viable ofc.
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On June 26 2015 06:05 ejozl wrote: I like Neural Parasite and they gave it a +1 range buff. There's so much new stuff for Zerg that it overshadows this buff, but I think Neural has a place. Infested Terran is still a meh ability for me, like Snipe was.
It needs to be researched, takes to much time, to costly and you still have to get the energy upgrade first. Its like the old Ventral Sacs, maybe even worse.
It will never be used.
On June 26 2015 05:45 _indigo_ wrote: What IF:
• Abduct gets removed from the game. Because since abduct was introduced, Protoss generally only plays mass gateway or air. Colossus gets hardcountered by this spell and in LotV Colossus in heavily nerfed.
• Viper gets Neural parasite instead of abduct. Right now neural is not used at all but in an air unit that can be positioned better and with a longer range neural could see its use.
• Feedback nerfed to 0,5 dmg per mana (50% nerf) so this spell doesn't hard counter all spellcasters. Design where you only need to get one unit to totally disable the other is not very good. Now, atleast, feedback would need to be casted 2 times to get the same damage.
• Infestor would need a new spell to make it an interesting tech choice. Maybe simply buff infested terrans somehow - it's nothing wrong if the spellcaster has only 2 spells that are useful (same as HT).
I agree with this, its not a bad suggestion, even tho i like abduct, it would make NP usefull for once. Maybe Infestors could get Abduct, being on Infestor it will have a limited use... And yes Infester Terran needs somekind of buff to make it useful again.... very fast spawning would be alot better then upgrades cuz that was OP.
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Why would parasitic bomb be op against ground but suddenly fungal removal isnt? Isnt that what's been complained about?
Parasitic bomb could be macro against and while weaker than storm theoretically because of it, can also stack. Infestors relative immobility isn't a excuse since high templar does it as well
You mean you want all buff? That'd what I'm seeing across all your threads. You can't have cake and eat it too.
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On June 26 2015 06:32 jinjin5000 wrote: Why would parasitic bomb be op against ground but suddenly fungal removal isnt? Isnt that what's been complained about?
Parasitic bomb could be macro against and while weaker than storm theoretically because of it, can also stack. Infestors relative immobility isn't a excuse since high templar does it as well
You mean you want all buff? That'd what I'm seeing across all your threads. You can't have cake and eat it too.
Parasitc Bomb for once is not a projectile, it has a bigger radius of effect and alot of dmg, its not that easy to split against. It would be worse then the Fungall Gorwth that it was in WoL Bio units HP is less then air units HP
Its so much worse then a Storm could ever be. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/SCAbility/Parasitic_Bomb
Creates a parasitic cloud that deals 90 damage over 7 seconds to the target and enemy air units nearby. If the target dies, the cloud remains in the air where the enemy unit died until it expires.
^ You want this on ground LOL
It would easily make a huge cloud of death that zones out entire bio armies, it would deny even Medivacs and it would be Lair tech. I dont talk about buffs, i talk abot new abilitys way to change them or to remplace them with others. Im talking about huge changes. While you mostly talk about Zerg nerfs.
Im sorry but i have no reason to debate with you anymore since you basically shot ideas at the wall without even thinking what things would happen, your just hoping it works as a nerf to zerg when in fact it makes other things really OP. And you clearly didnt know how strong Parasitic Bomb would be on ground if you said Storm would be stronger.
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Nice of you to acknowledge that we cancel each other out with the constant encouragement of buff/nerf. Face it. We both have specific agenda and you are covering it under "buff underused" and "more diversity"
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On June 26 2015 06:53 jinjin5000 wrote: Nice of you to acknowledge that we cancel each other out with the constant encouragement of buff/nerf. Face it. We both have specific agenda and you are covering it under "buff underused" and "more diversity"
It might look to you that way but i already said on different threads that i want also.
Powerful warpgate units for protoss but a warp in nerf to end all the all ins BS Cheaper Ghosts and Nukes. Etc.
So yeah sorry no agenda for me.
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Parasitic Bombs really doesn't make sense on the Viper with how Sc2 is currently designed.
Think about it this way:
Abduct/Blinding Cloud --> Hardcounters groundbased mech Mass Vikings --> Counters Abduct/Blinding Cloud Parasitic --> Hardcounters Vikings.
Eh.... so what unit composition is terran mech exactly supposed to get vs Vipers? Ghosts for EMP? I have to agree with Parasitic making making slightly more sense on the Infestor though that also overlaps somewhat with Fungal Growth.
But it would probably be better if they reworked abduct in order to make it an ability with more counterplay. And imo the Thor also needs to be better vs the Viper (which makes it possible for the Viper to be really good vs the Viking).
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On June 26 2015 05:45 _indigo_ wrote: What IF:
• Abduct gets removed from the game. Because since abduct was introduced, Protoss generally only plays mass gateway or air. Colossus gets hardcountered by this spell and in LotV Colossus in heavily nerfed.
• Viper gets Neural parasite instead of abduct. Right now neural is not used at all but in an air unit that can be positioned better and with a longer range neural could see its use.
• Feedback nerfed to 0,5 dmg per mana (50% nerf) so this spell doesn't hard counter all spellcasters. Design where you only need to get one unit to totally disable the other is not very good. Now, atleast, feedback would need to be casted 2 times to get the same damage.
• Infestor would need a new spell to make it an interesting tech choice. Maybe simply buff infested terrans somehow - it's nothing wrong if the spellcaster has only 2 spells that are useful (same as HT).
I logged in specifically to say how genius this is.
This way viper's vs colossus could be an interesting game. Viper's trying to neutral colossus, but phoenix/stalkers trying to kill the viper's. It's probably better than the 'grab/instant kill' now. (Neural should remain pretty expensive, in terms of energy and acquiring it, though.)
I don't necessarily want the feedback nerve; but everything else sounds great.
A buff to infested terrans would bring back the old 'infestor infested terran'raids which where cool (I'm a zerg), but maybe slightly OP? (That's why they were nerfed the way they were.) But a buff to those infested terrans + the current fungal growth again might make infestors being legitimately viable again.
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On June 26 2015 20:43 Hider wrote: Parasitic Bombs really doesn't make sense on the Viper with how Sc2 is currently designed.
Think about it this way:
Abduct/Blinding Cloud --> Hardcounters groundbased mech Mass Vikings --> Counters Abduct/Blinding Cloud Parasitic --> Hardcounters Vikings.
Eh.... so what unit composition is terran mech exactly supposed to get vs Vipers? Ghosts for EMP? I have to agree with Parasitic making making slightly more sense on the Infestor though that also overlaps somewhat with Fungal Growth.
But it would probably be better if they reworked abduct in order to make it an ability with more counterplay. And imo the Thor also needs to be better vs the Viper (which makes it possible for the Viper to be really good vs the Viking).
There is a new unit called Cyclone its very good vs air and ground if you get the upgrades. And no abduct was never a hard counter to mech, not even in HotS, Zerg are stuggling vs Mech in HotS Abduct is a counter to deathballs cuz you pick them apart.
You have also Liberators, cheaper and better then Thors in every way.
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On June 26 2015 21:06 ZergLingShepherd1 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2015 20:43 Hider wrote: Parasitic Bombs really doesn't make sense on the Viper with how Sc2 is currently designed.
Think about it this way:
Abduct/Blinding Cloud --> Hardcounters groundbased mech Mass Vikings --> Counters Abduct/Blinding Cloud Parasitic --> Hardcounters Vikings.
Eh.... so what unit composition is terran mech exactly supposed to get vs Vipers? Ghosts for EMP? I have to agree with Parasitic making making slightly more sense on the Infestor though that also overlaps somewhat with Fungal Growth.
But it would probably be better if they reworked abduct in order to make it an ability with more counterplay. And imo the Thor also needs to be better vs the Viper (which makes it possible for the Viper to be really good vs the Viking). There is a new unit called Cyclone its very good vs air and ground if you get the upgrades. And no abduct was never a hard counter to mech, not even in HotS, Zerg are stuggling vs Mech in HotS Abduct is a counter to deathballs cuz you pick them apart. You have also Liberators, cheaper and better then Thors in every way.
Cyclones are blocked by the binding cloud. They aren't cheap either at 150/150 so it could be abducted aswell Liberators and air units in general are hard done by parasitic bomb-and Liberator works in critical numbers and are 150/150 as well. Benefit of being able to be reactored but at least for mech, thors would suit better than liberators being able to both tank damage and counter light air. For Bio, I'd imagine the spare gas would go into liberators instead.
On Hots, while mech is really strong vs zerg, vikings/viper relationship made it so that binding cloud wasn't so overbearing on mech army and zerg players found tricks like overseer stack/sending those first to nullify the viking volley so it could get binding clouds off. On LotV, viper's versatility allows to take care of its supposed counter and take care of the ground as well.
Abduct is a good spell i feel that could abuse "off positioned" units and offer zerg an alternative to be cost effective but Vipers as of now in LotV are way too versatile.
1) Versatility in its ability to counter
a) A2A Vipers being able to take care of all the counters others have to offer is huge. For example, in HotS, vikings need to stack to snipe vipers in time with a volley in synchronized timing to hit it in maximum shots before viper could reach the target. Concaved vikings don't do as well of a job as it would spread the shots or take extra time to snipe vipers as it would close in extra distance. But thats not the problem really- Terran kind of had to with storm in field (although colossus is arguably a bigger target). The real problem is that parastiic bomb is able to stack and does incredible amount of damage in short amount of time- Storm you had period of time to dodge but parasitic bomb removes any type of delay other than pre-engagement split as its stack and dps decimates any "lesser air" in incredibly short amount of time. Capital ships go down fast enough and the less tanky air units go down in blink of an eye.
b) G2A Should be self-explanatory: Binding cloud. Great spell that punishes clumps imo. Binding cloud is able to nullify ground to air attacks. So we have 2 spells in 1 spellcaster that shuts down both air and ground EDIT: Cyclone lock on is not nullified. I can haggle about missle turret/auto attack but thats bit absurd on my part. I guess abduct could be mentioned to a stretch since cyclone is a high value target in itself.
2) counters using spellcasters
So then comes in the counters in form of spellcasters- Raven with the pdd (rightfully nerfed) to mitigate damage when binding cloud is in effect, but is countered by parasitic bomb, and Ghosts, which has emp that removes 100 energy- which viper would need to retreat to consume. But Ghosts are 200/100, not exactly cheap and doesn't have recharge and frankly, doesnt fit the mech army as much as raven does. So that leaves us with Raven.
And the overseer/viper stack commonly seen with firecake's style of play makes its appearance here yet agaub: Against High templar feedback, this could be avoided or minimized.
3) Availability of energy Energy is never much of concern with consume- and now we have unit overloaded with great spells when it was already a great addition to Zerg arsenal in Hots. Thats why I was proposing having parastiic bomb over to infestor.
4) Mobility/Maneuverability
All these factors, combined with extreme mobility of viper and maneuverability (being a flying unit) in addition to easy access to energy breaks the game. A comparable example would be with High templars. High templars are hampered by not being able to regen energy as easily and being extremely slow and prone to snipes, with it being low hp unit (and also being able to be hit by majority of fire on ground where most starcraft battles are focused).
Viper has none of these downsides while having arguably more versatile skillset than even that of High templar (feedback is a strong argument though)
Anyways sorry for being so negative on posts before but I hope you will see from my viewpoint.
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On June 26 2015 23:03 jinjin5000 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2015 21:06 ZergLingShepherd1 wrote:On June 26 2015 20:43 Hider wrote: Parasitic Bombs really doesn't make sense on the Viper with how Sc2 is currently designed.
Think about it this way:
Abduct/Blinding Cloud --> Hardcounters groundbased mech Mass Vikings --> Counters Abduct/Blinding Cloud Parasitic --> Hardcounters Vikings.
Eh.... so what unit composition is terran mech exactly supposed to get vs Vipers? Ghosts for EMP? I have to agree with Parasitic making making slightly more sense on the Infestor though that also overlaps somewhat with Fungal Growth.
But it would probably be better if they reworked abduct in order to make it an ability with more counterplay. And imo the Thor also needs to be better vs the Viper (which makes it possible for the Viper to be really good vs the Viking). There is a new unit called Cyclone its very good vs air and ground if you get the upgrades. And no abduct was never a hard counter to mech, not even in HotS, Zerg are stuggling vs Mech in HotS Abduct is a counter to deathballs cuz you pick them apart. You have also Liberators, cheaper and better then Thors in every way. Cyclones are blocked by the binding cloud. Unless they changed it, they are not. Their ability is actually considered to be an ability and not a form of attack, and therefore isn't blocked by Blinding Cloud. I know that a lot of casters and pros were arguing about it.
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On June 26 2015 23:20 Ramiz1989 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2015 23:03 jinjin5000 wrote:On June 26 2015 21:06 ZergLingShepherd1 wrote:On June 26 2015 20:43 Hider wrote: Parasitic Bombs really doesn't make sense on the Viper with how Sc2 is currently designed.
Think about it this way:
Abduct/Blinding Cloud --> Hardcounters groundbased mech Mass Vikings --> Counters Abduct/Blinding Cloud Parasitic --> Hardcounters Vikings.
Eh.... so what unit composition is terran mech exactly supposed to get vs Vipers? Ghosts for EMP? I have to agree with Parasitic making making slightly more sense on the Infestor though that also overlaps somewhat with Fungal Growth.
But it would probably be better if they reworked abduct in order to make it an ability with more counterplay. And imo the Thor also needs to be better vs the Viper (which makes it possible for the Viper to be really good vs the Viking). There is a new unit called Cyclone its very good vs air and ground if you get the upgrades. And no abduct was never a hard counter to mech, not even in HotS, Zerg are stuggling vs Mech in HotS Abduct is a counter to deathballs cuz you pick them apart. You have also Liberators, cheaper and better then Thors in every way. Cyclones are blocked by the binding cloud. Unless they changed it, they are not. Their ability is actually considered to be an ability and not a form of attack, and therefore isn't blocked by Blinding Cloud. I know that a lot of casters and pros were arguing about it.
Aha, then I stand corrected. But bulk of mech army should be focused on siege tanks is it not? Binding cloud shuts down majority of it and the zerg army isn't just made of vipers. There is also minor case of cooldown
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On June 26 2015 23:03 jinjin5000 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2015 21:06 ZergLingShepherd1 wrote:On June 26 2015 20:43 Hider wrote: Parasitic Bombs really doesn't make sense on the Viper with how Sc2 is currently designed.
Think about it this way:
Abduct/Blinding Cloud --> Hardcounters groundbased mech Mass Vikings --> Counters Abduct/Blinding Cloud Parasitic --> Hardcounters Vikings.
Eh.... so what unit composition is terran mech exactly supposed to get vs Vipers? Ghosts for EMP? I have to agree with Parasitic making making slightly more sense on the Infestor though that also overlaps somewhat with Fungal Growth.
But it would probably be better if they reworked abduct in order to make it an ability with more counterplay. And imo the Thor also needs to be better vs the Viper (which makes it possible for the Viper to be really good vs the Viking). There is a new unit called Cyclone its very good vs air and ground if you get the upgrades. And no abduct was never a hard counter to mech, not even in HotS, Zerg are stuggling vs Mech in HotS Abduct is a counter to deathballs cuz you pick them apart. You have also Liberators, cheaper and better then Thors in every way. Cyclones are blocked by the binding cloud. They aren't cheap either at 150/150 so it could be abducted aswell Liberators and air units in general are hard done by parasitic bomb-and Liberator works in critical numbers and are 150/150 as well. Benefit of being able to be reactored but at least for mech, thors would suit better than liberators being able to both tank damage and counter light air. For Bio, I'd imagine the spare gas would go into liberators instead. On Hots, while mech is really strong vs zerg, vikings/viper relationship made it so that binding cloud wasn't so overbearing on mech army and zerg players found tricks like overseer stack/sending those first to nullify the viking volley so it could get binding clouds off. On LotV, viper's versatility allows to take care of its supposed counter and take care of the ground as well. Abduct is a good spell i feel that could abuse "off positioned" units and offer zerg an alternative to be cost effective but Vipers as of now in LotV are way too versatile, being able to take care of all the counters- vikings need to stack to snipe vipers in time with a volley in synchronized timing to hit it in maximum shots before viper could reach the target. Concaved vikings don't do as well of a job as it would spread the shots or take extra time to snipe vipers as it would close in extra distance. But thats not the problem really- Terran kind of had to with storm in field (although colossus is arguably a bigger target). The only real problem is that parastiic bomb is able to stack and does incredible amount of damage in short amount of time. Energy is never much of concern with consume- and now we have unit overloaded with great spells when it was already a great addition to Zerg arsenal in Hots. Thats why I was proposing having parastiic bomb over to infestor. So then comes in the counters in form of spellcasters- Raven with the pdd (rightfully nerfed) to mitigate damage when binding cloud is in effect, but is countered by parasitic bomb, and Ghosts, which has emp that removes 100 energy- which viper would need to retreat to consume. But Ghosts are 200/100, not exactly cheap and doesn't have recharge and frankly, doesnt fit the mech army as much as raven does. So that leaves us with Raven. All these factors, combined with extreme mobility of viper and maneuverability (being a flying unit) in addition to easy access to energy breaks the game. A comparable example would be with High templars. High templars are hampered by not being able to regen energy as easily and being extremely slow and prone to snipes, with it being low hp unit (and also being able to be hit by majority of fire on ground where most starcraft battles are focused). Viper has none of these downsides while having more versatile skillset Anyways sorry for being so negative on posts before but I hope you will see from my viewpoint.
Cyclones ability is not blocked by Blinding Cloud simply because its an ability not a normal attack, you know cyclones have normal attacks to. Im talking about late game since hive tech and a good ammount of vipers takes time, by then you get alot of cyclones if you play mech, most player prefer playing turtle mech and then change it to agressive cyclone/hellion/WM
If you know how to split as a Terran you would take little damage from PB
PB ability is a band aid for Zerg since they lack AA vs mass air strategy, so its needs to be very powerful, otherwise zerg will still have the same whole in their desing, they i already have it in early to mid game. You cant drop Protoss or Terran like yo do to Zerg cuz lack of AA
Please inform youself before posting cuz im getting really lazy correcting you all the time, and this will be my last post to you if i see other things that arent true like Blinding Cloud stopping Cyclones
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