This is my reply to the pushback DK gave over maps in his latest community update for LotV - Well, to me, maps are a major issue of contention that have been getting worse and worse. I've always felt this way. For that reason, I figured I'd finally sit down and talk through all my thoughts on what I think is wrong with the maps. Many of the issues create subsequent problems which I make note of in the video.
Threw this together in an hour - so pardon the flubs/pauses when covering so much stuff. There is a lot to say and a lot more that wasn't added~
Transcription, for the most part:
+ Show Spoiler +
edit: I will mention I forgot to talk about bridgehead - so I'll do a quick summary here.
+ Show Spoiler +
Threw this together in an hour - so pardon the flubs/pauses when covering so much stuff. There is a lot to say and a lot more that wasn't added~
Transcription, for the most part:
+ Show Spoiler +
pros of broodwar maps:
so first off, terrain is very important for army movement and strategical positioning which can give a smaller army a great advantage. this is due to the terrain advantage which allows for units to miss from low ground. What this allows is for planned risks that can pay off in a viewer friendly and understandable way which is not present in sc2.
for example - on Jade we can see that between your natural and 3rd there is a huge ramp, but this ramp gives the defender a small, noticeable difference as the attacker has to come up the ramp to get full damage potential, or have a much much bigger army. also, at the 3rd base we can see that there is a small choke which forces different routes of engagement and also allows for certain risks such as faster 3rd bases to have a greater reward if they are held.
on la mancha we can see similar 3rd base chokes - with different routes for attack possibilities that players need to be aware of.
circuit breaker on the other hand has the reverse, which means that instead of being greedy, you need to be aware of the potential for an attack. the difference allows for varied game results between races, and makes for an exciting change of pace between maps that isn't inherently, or fundamentally unfun to play.
next, i wanted to talk about how all aspects of terrain have an importance in bw maps, such as ramp width - the middle of the map has more open areas to surround or out maneuver and so on.
heartbreak ridge is the best example of this I think. As you can see on this map, the middle has not only a passable area, but also a circle you can navigate around to either flank or go around an attacking army, while also being able to confront on the attacking side. moreover, it has a very interesting mechanic in the back of the bases which lead to a possible timing to harass the natural base. this is slightly similar to backdoor rocks, however, allows for a timing, rather than a sort of gimmick that opens up a huge vulnerability which cannot be held as the game progresses. as the game progresses in broodwar the mechanic behind your natural is actually covered by the expansion to your 3rd base - thus if you expand and play the game out, you remedy what was earlier a disadvantage.
another cool aspect of a broodwar map is on an old map triathlon which had a base that was behind cloaked eggs. you could mineral path a worker to this base for a quick, hidden expansion that would be separated from your main base until later in the game when you could kill the eggs, but allowed for you to easily get up the base. something like this added an interesting mechanic to the map pool without being anywhere near as comparable to something like destructible rocks at the back of your base.
the third thing I wanted to talk about was how the middle of the map is a foundation aspect of almost every broodwar map - it creates a center of attention for viewers and also helps keep players active on the map rather than just sitting in their base.
giving up the positioning as mentioned previously can result in a loss in its own right - for example if a Terran hard contains it has much more effect.
this is in large part due to the economy, but also how defensive setups of broodwar were simply more effective with space control units than sc2. in some instances, sitting in your base making immortals and then busting out of a soft contain is perfectly fine, when in reality, giving up control of the map for a duration of time should come with some sort of negative effects.
so now we're going to move onto the cons of sc2 maps:
the biggest issue which just has to be stated is simple: gold bases should have been removed in 2010, yet we somehow have them in 2015. There is no other way to state it than them simply being imbalanced for competitive gameplay. They are not interesting and do not provide anything exciting to the game. They are more trouble than they are worth and should not be included in competitive maps.
Moving on to some of the things we mentioned early, lets contrast the early statements from broodwar maps so that you can see that in general, how it is very hard to move around on almost every sc2 map. There are either very few open paths to surround or outflank an enemy - or the simple fact that, moving out on the map really doesn't provide any strategic advantage - and thus, there is nothing wrong with essentially just sitting in your base the whole game - this is especially apparent in a large majority of protoss games since... forever.
an example of this would be from one of the only semi good maps from the previous season - echo, which shows us that the ideal game for a protoss player is to get this third base, sit there, get a sick army, control the center of the map with FFs and then retreat once storm is on the way and then attack with collosus and storm. it's essentially the same for every pro protoss vs terran game you see on this map.
again in contrast to broodwar, some aspects of sc2 maps simply have no purpose, or reason for actually being included. There are also instances of terrain destroying any semblance of a reasonable progression in the meta game.
great examples of this would be the fact that we just got dash and terminal which is essentially a remake of scrap station with the base locations, a separated island, random gold bases, rocks, and just as confusingly as the rest of this stuff a random space behind the natural of each base. unlike the broodwar counterpart of a nice mechanic behind a natural this one has an incredible potential for huge drops with the given airspace and direction in which you expand out. thus, even if you do take a third base, you in no way secure that dead space behind your bases which can easily be circumnavigated by either flying in from the north and down or from the bottom up.
the final con is that there is nothing foundation that sc2 maps build around. as mentioned, space control is incredibly important in broodwar - and thus, armies are almost always dancing around the middle of the map for control. without something like terrain advantages, space controlling units that actually do their jobs, and so on, horrendous units such as the liberator become a crutch for what should otherwise be an active and exciting exchange around the map.
when you have a few liberators sitting at an expo covering a choke you can simply quarantine yourself off until you need another base. thus, space control and army movements become the reverse of what they were in broodwar - which as we all know by this point, is incredibly boring, not fun to watch, and even worse to play. Likewise, we have maps like terraform which destroy the very idea of having fights in the middle of the map, instead you either attack straight through - or around the sides when you are ready to attack, there is not really any room for posturing.
well, anyway, that about sums up everything I have to say. hopefully this video has helped shed some light on why sc2 maps are so bad. I really want to emphasize here how much thought went into the BW maps given the progression in the meta game over such a long time. It seems like what we currently have in sc2 is a regression in map design due to horrendous fan submissions (no offense to some of the TL map makers.. but seriously, i mean to offend you) and also horrendous designs handed to us by blizzard which are forcefully given to pro players... this sort of thing really needs to change. It's not a big surprise leagues like kespa use their own maps, and even very old ones at this point to combat how bad some of the blizzard map pool is...
if u like the video please share it, and maybe but doubtfully, blizzard can show some support.
so first off, terrain is very important for army movement and strategical positioning which can give a smaller army a great advantage. this is due to the terrain advantage which allows for units to miss from low ground. What this allows is for planned risks that can pay off in a viewer friendly and understandable way which is not present in sc2.
for example - on Jade we can see that between your natural and 3rd there is a huge ramp, but this ramp gives the defender a small, noticeable difference as the attacker has to come up the ramp to get full damage potential, or have a much much bigger army. also, at the 3rd base we can see that there is a small choke which forces different routes of engagement and also allows for certain risks such as faster 3rd bases to have a greater reward if they are held.
on la mancha we can see similar 3rd base chokes - with different routes for attack possibilities that players need to be aware of.
circuit breaker on the other hand has the reverse, which means that instead of being greedy, you need to be aware of the potential for an attack. the difference allows for varied game results between races, and makes for an exciting change of pace between maps that isn't inherently, or fundamentally unfun to play.
next, i wanted to talk about how all aspects of terrain have an importance in bw maps, such as ramp width - the middle of the map has more open areas to surround or out maneuver and so on.
heartbreak ridge is the best example of this I think. As you can see on this map, the middle has not only a passable area, but also a circle you can navigate around to either flank or go around an attacking army, while also being able to confront on the attacking side. moreover, it has a very interesting mechanic in the back of the bases which lead to a possible timing to harass the natural base. this is slightly similar to backdoor rocks, however, allows for a timing, rather than a sort of gimmick that opens up a huge vulnerability which cannot be held as the game progresses. as the game progresses in broodwar the mechanic behind your natural is actually covered by the expansion to your 3rd base - thus if you expand and play the game out, you remedy what was earlier a disadvantage.
another cool aspect of a broodwar map is on an old map triathlon which had a base that was behind cloaked eggs. you could mineral path a worker to this base for a quick, hidden expansion that would be separated from your main base until later in the game when you could kill the eggs, but allowed for you to easily get up the base. something like this added an interesting mechanic to the map pool without being anywhere near as comparable to something like destructible rocks at the back of your base.
the third thing I wanted to talk about was how the middle of the map is a foundation aspect of almost every broodwar map - it creates a center of attention for viewers and also helps keep players active on the map rather than just sitting in their base.
giving up the positioning as mentioned previously can result in a loss in its own right - for example if a Terran hard contains it has much more effect.
this is in large part due to the economy, but also how defensive setups of broodwar were simply more effective with space control units than sc2. in some instances, sitting in your base making immortals and then busting out of a soft contain is perfectly fine, when in reality, giving up control of the map for a duration of time should come with some sort of negative effects.
so now we're going to move onto the cons of sc2 maps:
the biggest issue which just has to be stated is simple: gold bases should have been removed in 2010, yet we somehow have them in 2015. There is no other way to state it than them simply being imbalanced for competitive gameplay. They are not interesting and do not provide anything exciting to the game. They are more trouble than they are worth and should not be included in competitive maps.
Moving on to some of the things we mentioned early, lets contrast the early statements from broodwar maps so that you can see that in general, how it is very hard to move around on almost every sc2 map. There are either very few open paths to surround or outflank an enemy - or the simple fact that, moving out on the map really doesn't provide any strategic advantage - and thus, there is nothing wrong with essentially just sitting in your base the whole game - this is especially apparent in a large majority of protoss games since... forever.
an example of this would be from one of the only semi good maps from the previous season - echo, which shows us that the ideal game for a protoss player is to get this third base, sit there, get a sick army, control the center of the map with FFs and then retreat once storm is on the way and then attack with collosus and storm. it's essentially the same for every pro protoss vs terran game you see on this map.
again in contrast to broodwar, some aspects of sc2 maps simply have no purpose, or reason for actually being included. There are also instances of terrain destroying any semblance of a reasonable progression in the meta game.
great examples of this would be the fact that we just got dash and terminal which is essentially a remake of scrap station with the base locations, a separated island, random gold bases, rocks, and just as confusingly as the rest of this stuff a random space behind the natural of each base. unlike the broodwar counterpart of a nice mechanic behind a natural this one has an incredible potential for huge drops with the given airspace and direction in which you expand out. thus, even if you do take a third base, you in no way secure that dead space behind your bases which can easily be circumnavigated by either flying in from the north and down or from the bottom up.
the final con is that there is nothing foundation that sc2 maps build around. as mentioned, space control is incredibly important in broodwar - and thus, armies are almost always dancing around the middle of the map for control. without something like terrain advantages, space controlling units that actually do their jobs, and so on, horrendous units such as the liberator become a crutch for what should otherwise be an active and exciting exchange around the map.
when you have a few liberators sitting at an expo covering a choke you can simply quarantine yourself off until you need another base. thus, space control and army movements become the reverse of what they were in broodwar - which as we all know by this point, is incredibly boring, not fun to watch, and even worse to play. Likewise, we have maps like terraform which destroy the very idea of having fights in the middle of the map, instead you either attack straight through - or around the sides when you are ready to attack, there is not really any room for posturing.
well, anyway, that about sums up everything I have to say. hopefully this video has helped shed some light on why sc2 maps are so bad. I really want to emphasize here how much thought went into the BW maps given the progression in the meta game over such a long time. It seems like what we currently have in sc2 is a regression in map design due to horrendous fan submissions (no offense to some of the TL map makers.. but seriously, i mean to offend you) and also horrendous designs handed to us by blizzard which are forcefully given to pro players... this sort of thing really needs to change. It's not a big surprise leagues like kespa use their own maps, and even very old ones at this point to combat how bad some of the blizzard map pool is...
if u like the video please share it, and maybe but doubtfully, blizzard can show some support.
edit: I will mention I forgot to talk about bridgehead - so I'll do a quick summary here.
+ Show Spoiler +
bridgehead is, barring a few huge errors, a good replica of heartbreak ridge. It'd actually be a fantastic map if it wasn't for.. the destructible rocks which give access with pylons to the main base. This is sort of the crux of what I was talking about at one point in the video. Instead of adding faster, more mobile units, or units that control space, blizzard adds map mechanics that essentially ruin everyone's day because it creates such a blatant problem once the mechanic has been used. Once the rocks are warped past, or destroyed, the maps goes from a rather amazing remake, to a horrendous 2010 map with 2 entrances to your MAIN BASE. This sort of thing is really inexcusable for the current meta game, or really, any competitive/fun/viewer friendly game of sc2. It's just bad map design. If you want to add an interesting mechanic like HBR, then do it ... just like the original! At least once you take control of a certain amount of space on the map that timing then becomes something that you move past, rather than have to worry about the whole game.
1080p to render soon tm