The reason people like this its because it gives more options to zerg and they are usefull, also it promotes drop play. Until now no Zerg could harass early on because walls are a problem and if you commit you must all in
I know there are 2 all ins on NORMAL/SMALL maps but we could just make the overlord drop upgrade cost more, something like 100/25 or 75/25 to stop those 2 all ins.
Moving it at Lair would just force the Zerg to go Mutas or Nydus cuz its much faster and better. If they do move at Lair they are going to need to buff the speed alot and maybe even the cargo space, without speed they will turn useless again.
Also if you just nerf if to Lair with nothing else, 1 base lair all in would still be a thing. Dont force players into something that you dont want.
Here is a cool LotV match with Ovelord Drops that shows its not OP and in fact its very cool.
I dont see how moving it to lair is such a huge nerf. If you open with 2 base, you can make a lair and then get overlord speed at the same time. After the lair finishes, you can get overlord drops for 25/25 per overlord, which is way faster than muta/ nydus because you don't' need to wait for any buildings to finish
On July 03 2015 18:21 AkashSky wrote: I dont see how moving it to lair is such a huge nerf. If you open with 2 base, you can make a lair and then get overlord speed at the same time. After the lair finishes, you can get overlord drops for 25/25 per overlord, which is way faster than muta/ nydus because you don't' need to wait for any buildings to finish
The problem is that you wont do anything with them becuase they are to slow, and the enemy alredy has enough AA to stop an overlord drop easily. The investment also would be a more all in.
Im saying Nydus will be a better option for the simple fact that it saves you the time and its a guranted hit. Mutas also, they ma cost a bit more, takes a bit more time but you have map control, you harass and you kill drops.
Im sorry but moving to Lair its a death sentence. Even more on LARGE MAPS.
I could see it balanced in multiple ways, none of which is completely necessary by itself. The notion that Zergs would be therefore compelled to wait for spire tech to be ready, or skip Overlord drops and tech to the much-more-expensive Nydus is absurd. Honestly, I'm going to trust David Kim on this one.
Just came here to say that this game actually shows how zerg can fool around and force-use drops even in non optimal situations and win. Fenner didn't really "play-to-win" but "play-to-have-fun-with-drops" and still won, that's what I'm trying to point out, while you show us as a representation of how it's balanced.
Actually, the first ling drop in the game shows pretty well how this could have ended the game right there if he wouldn't focus two pylons and a gate (and kill nothing) but instead all the probes. Protoss literally had nothing there and I can't imagine how he would have had with this expansion build.
I'm all for keeping the drops this way for more testing, BUT I don't like how you portray your argument with a sample, that is deceiving in so many ways.
On July 03 2015 18:47 mishimaBeef wrote: Remember when speed boost on the medivacs was new? What a ruckus.
inb4 some wise guy posts a wall of texts explaining how speedvacs are 'very different' and 'shouldn't be compared'
As a matter of fact they are. I mainly play Terran but even I realise that the problem of overlord drops is linked mostly to Protoss, because when they expand, they rely on the wall and very few costly units. Speed medivacs are not comparable because the race design prevents Protoss from having enough units so early (Medivacs are starport tech, for Christ's sake) to deal with zerg units that shouldn't have been inside his base at that time.
And if you think about how little this costs zerg it creates a huge imbalance in chosen builds or the amount of gambling needed for both races.
I actually think the above game is a great example of why Overlord drops must be changed. First off, I actually thought Fenner misexecuted a couple of times in the early game; might just have won quickly with a cleaner execution.
Secondly, it's also clear that had the toss not gona 3 gate-adept he would have 0% chance of winning regardless of how much Fenner had screwed up.
My point is that it's definitely a very strong all in. Perhaps it can be counterable (as blink stalkers were vs terran in early 2014/late 2013), but it will at the same time restrict the available openings of the openings.
Yes, in the above game it evened out nicely, but - based on observations from playing and watching thousands of Starcraft games - 9/10 times a strong early game all-in will result in a binary outcome. Either the defender holds it off and gets significantly ahead --> Snowballs or the all-inner wins straight up.
The desired goal should instead be to make overlord drops a decent "harass/light-pressure" opener while very weak when used to all in opponents.
On July 03 2015 19:12 aka_star wrote: just have an evo chamber requirement so it spells out to the scouting player what is going on.
Drop was in the main at 3:15 when Protoss had 2 adepts and MSC, with warpgates on 50% research. I can't imagine what he could have done if he would somehow scout the Evo chamber, unless he would have opened with 2 gates OR a forge and put a cannon in each mineral line upon scouting Evo chamber.
And also, how do you even scout vs speedling opening? :D
Now imagine this: Protoss is not cross position but in one of the closer spawns - Overlord is already sitting there, because it went the right direction at the start. Drop doesn't need speed upgrade in that scenario and can elevator lings inside at 2:35 when Protoss has 1 zealot (or 1 adept) and MSC. I dare say you need to prepare your build as Protoss starting at 1:00 to shut this down, but zerg doesn't have to do this at all. I'm not even Protoss but I can't wrap my brain around something like that.
On July 03 2015 19:12 aka_star wrote: just have an evo chamber requirement so it spells out to the scouting player what is going on.
Drop was in the main at 3:15 when Protoss had 2 adepts and MSC, with warpgates on 50% research. I can't imagine what he could have done if he would somehow scout the Evo chamber, unless he would have opened with 2 gates OR a forge and put a cannon in each mineral line upon scouting Evo chamber.
And also, how do you even scout vs speedling opening? :D
Now imagine this: Protoss is not cross position but in one of the closer spawns - Overlord is already sitting there, because it went the right direction at the start. Drop doesn't need speed upgrade in that scenario and can elevator lings inside at 2:35 when Protoss has 1 zealot (or 1 adept) and MSC. I dare say you need to prepare your build as Protoss starting at 1:00 to shut this down, but zerg doesn't have to do this at all. I'm not even Protoss but I can't wrap my brain around something like that.
I wonder whether overlords unloading being much much slower (like 4 times slower) would work. This would make it easier to defend against drops with very few units in the early game, and would also be a big nerf to a big Speedling all-in in the early game.
Then at lair there could be a (cheap upgrade) to make then unload at normal speed.
I like the slower dropping idea. It's good middle ground because hatch-tech drops are fun addition and I support it, but Protoss design is something we can't just disregard. A 50-50 upgrade on Lair for normal dropping speed would be great (similar to Concussive shells).
I am really sceptical with this change because the early game is balanced around the fact that T and P can wall against Z. To me, you can not break this rule without huge impact on the balance, despite it is a really good idea to add another tool to the zerg arsenal.
It seems pretty good as it is now, would rather have them keep it the way it is, and maybe change it later on if it proves to be stupid. For now, it seems fucking amazingly cool.
On July 03 2015 22:38 ZergLingShepherd1 wrote: The game show that if the protoss player got out 2 stalkers and postioned them, they would have stopped the overlord drops easy.
Instead the protoss was rushing out warp in.
So blind 2 stalker rush it is? Because you can never know if this is happening or not. Not to mention that overlord wouldn't die to 2 stalkers in time and speedlings would destroy this "composition" even faster and with less loses.
On July 03 2015 22:38 ZergLingShepherd1 wrote: The game show that if the protoss player got out 2 stalkers and postioned them, they would have stopped the overlord drops easy.
Instead the protoss was rushing out warp in.
So blind 2 stalker rush it is? Because you can never know if this is happening or not. Not to mention that overlord wouldn't die to 2 stalkers in time and speedlings would destroy this "composition" even faster and with less loses.
You can scout the overlord coming or they could simply change the desing of the overlord drop. You also do blind turets vs oracles. It would die very fast, try it and use a pylon.
It looks that most of your posts are balance whine, yet you play terran a race that has super strong drops that even got buffed more.