|
Hydras are hilariously bad at the moment, and this is the general community consensus.
It's unfortunate, because Hydras are the 'iconic unit' of the Zerg race. They are too expensive for their price, and fill a very niche role, only at a certain time of the game.
Take ZvP for example. Hydras are sometimes mixed with Roaches to be used to fight against the P gateway army, but once P reaches the later stages of the game with multiple Colossus / Storm, Hydras fall off dramatically in terms of usefulness.
ZvT is even worse. They are almost never seen, because bio is way too good against them.
I suggest 3 changes to the Hydras. Please hear me out:
First Change: Although I don't like simply changing the raw stats, Hydras could definitely use a 25 gas reduction. 100 Minerals, 25 gas, 2 supply. This sounds very reasonable, especially since Zerg is so gas-starved throughout the game.
Second Change: Increase their size. This is done for ZvP so that splash damage, such as Colossus splash or Storm is less effective against them. Plus, even in lore, Hydras were quite big, they would tower over a marine easily. I'm not advocating they become as big as an Ultra, but right now, they are only barely bigger than a marine.
Third Change: New Passive "Acidic Spines". Every time Hydra damages a unit, that unit's regeneration/healing is reduced by 50% for 4 seconds. This is mainly for ZvT, where Hydras can be used to reduce the effectiveness of the Medivac healing. It would also reduce the regeneration of P army (very slightly). It would single-handedly allow Hydra to be used in ZvT again. It would also be useful for allowing Z more flexible tech path, so that Zerg doesn't have to go Mutas / Corrupters every time to reduce the Medivac count.
|
Honestly I would love hydras be 1 supply with less stats and way cheaper at hatch. As it should be. It would help alot with the early AA and if it needs a better place in mid game some upgrades for life and damage could be made.
Then Lurkers at Lair. Lurker Den requires Lair.
|
Zerg AA is fine, Queens (the "zerg combat AA mule") are one of the best units in the game and they also provide macro options. A lot of units are balanced so the queens can counter them. Might as well drop all air openings than.
I feel zerg is incredibly strong right now, both in HotS and in LotV, so Hydra change is unfounded. IMO.
|
On July 07 2015 02:36 _indigo_ wrote: Zerg AA is fine, Queens (the "zerg combat AA mule") are one of the best units in the game and they also provide macro options. A lot of units are balanced so the queens can counter them. Might as well drop all air openings than.
I feel zerg is incredibly strong right now, both in HotS and in LotV, so Hydra change is unfounded. IMO.
Zerg strong in HotS ? I hope that is a ironic joke cuz everyone knows Zerg is the weakest it HotS.
Look at the data from tournaments and see the balance then add the fact of zerg having only 19 premier tournaments won while protoss has 29 and terran 28 in Hots.
Also David kim admiting that Zerg feels weaker and slighty UP.
We both know what slighty means LOL.
PS. Ask yourself why Zerg didnt got a single nerf from the HotS version to the version of LotV beta. Cuz it was to strong ?
|
Zerg lategame has a problem dealing with terran lategame production and protoss deathballs. This has nothing to do with early game AA, because early game Zerg is the easiest race to defend stuff already.
Lategame is the problem.
|
On July 07 2015 02:49 _indigo_ wrote: Zerg lategame has a problem dealing with terran lategame production and protoss deathballs. This has nothing to do with early game AA, because early game Zerg is the easiest race to defend stuff already.
Lategame is the problem.
Hellbat timing easy to defend ? Banshee that you cant never catch ? Canon rush ?
I could go on.
Tho yes late game and FF has been the most obivous problem.
I just think Hydra at 1 supply that you could micro and defend better but also swarm with them is a good design
Also Zerg lacks 1 supply units like it had in BW. And roaches at 1 supply didnt work out.
|
Early game is well balanced right now. Much easier for zerg to defend those things than for terran to defend roach bane allins or early roach rushes. If you make it easier it will cause very increased fapping options for zerg players in first 10 minutes.
|
On July 07 2015 02:57 _indigo_ wrote: Early game is well balanced right now. Much easier for zerg to defend those things than for terran to defend roach bane allins or early roach rushes. If you make it easier it will cause very increased fapping options for zerg players in first 10 minutes.
Comparing early game agression to zerg all ins ? What kind of logic is that ?
Many other people said to David Kim that hellbat agression behind 3 CC is to strong already.
|
On July 07 2015 03:38 ZergLingShepherd1 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2015 02:57 _indigo_ wrote: Early game is well balanced right now. Much easier for zerg to defend those things than for terran to defend roach bane allins or early roach rushes. If you make it easier it will cause very increased fapping options for zerg players in first 10 minutes. Many other people said to David Kim that hellbat agression behind 3 CC is to strong already.
Yea, that's cuz majority of foreign terran players stopped playing or broke their wrists lol.
|
On July 07 2015 03:38 ZergLingShepherd1 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2015 02:57 _indigo_ wrote: Early game is well balanced right now. Much easier for zerg to defend those things than for terran to defend roach bane allins or early roach rushes. If you make it easier it will cause very increased fapping options for zerg players in first 10 minutes. Comparing early game agression to zerg all ins ? What kind of logic is that ? Many other people said to David Kim that hellbat agression behind 3 CC is to strong already.
Most variations of roach or roach / bane aren't really all-in though, you can do minimal damage and macro out of it pretty decently because of how defensive it forces terran to play. You'll be behind if you don't do damage though, same as a terran delaying upgrades / production for a hellbat timing will be behind where he could have been if zerg defends well.
edit: Back on topic, I wouldn't mind seeing a buff to hydra, but I'd much rather see a change in it's roll as it currently overlaps too much with the roach. Personally would love to see a slightly weaker, less expensive 1 supply hydra.
|
Yeah, Zerg doesn't need an early game buff, but I do think Hydralisk should have a reduced gas cost, slightly bigger radius, quicker hydralisk den build time.
|
Speaking of ZvP, Hydras seem to be in an OK spot. They're cost efficient versus gateway units before master-level+ forcefield placement and weaker against compositions which include higher tech units than the hydras themselves. Until you get hive tech. Now again hydras are part of a viable composition.
The fact that hydras + overseers can easily snipe observers, opening up lurker timings/lurker play, alone makes them a viable unit.
To address your hydra buffs directly: 1) The gas change is completely unwarranted for the reasons above. 2) The collision size change is actually a nerf to hydras. This would dramatically reduce your army's DPS with the only benefit being you don't have to micro as much against AOE. 3) The acidic spines change seems interesting. You should make a mod and test it.
|
I think that the spines would also fit the flavour of the unit pretty well, and wouldn't be oppressive in many situations but I do agree with bM30 that you should test this out.
|
Since the very beginning of SC2 I wanted the Hydra and Roach to swap places. Make Hydra the T1.5 unit with 1 supply cost and Roach the T2 unit with more beef and bonus damage against armored. This way zerg has early anti-air and is better against force fields and timing attacks (because hydras have higher range then roaches and take less damage from most attack types) and with Roaches becoming stronger zerg can go better into the late game.
I really dont understand why Blizzard wanted Hydralisks to be T2.
|
I also like the Acidic Spines idea, mainly because it's a late-ish game TvZ upgrade. I'm against making hydras Tier 1, because defending AA with queens and spores is kind of a "thing" for Zerg, just like Immortals can't be made from gateways and Banshee can't be produces with no techlab.
Test the spines, would love to see the results vs medivac-bio army. If it's too strong in combination with roach-hydra allin it can be made an upgrade even.
|
Hydras are fine in LOTV, their timing is very hard to counter with the stacking of the ameliorations.
In Hots, the real problem is the protoss gateball/immo that kills anything that isn't T3. However, an infestor buff would make much more sense, since plainly buffing the hydras would open too strong mid game timings.
This thread answers a zerg whine agenda that absolutly doesn't take into accounts the very strong hydra timings in ZvP and the PDD nerf that greatly diminishes terran ability to negate hydras in TvZ. I won't even speak about LOTV since zerg are ridiculously overwhelming in the beta (I played it quite a lot since recently, and switched back to HOTS since it was impossible to play anything but zergs).
|
Let's admit hydras and roaches switch roles. How many queens does it take to counter a Blue Flame build on two bases ? Will the hydras be efficient enough to defend early attacks from protosses without speed ? (Like the current 3-4-5 gates pressure with or without sentries) I don't really see the early hydras being too strong as they still require an upgrade.
|
On July 07 2015 05:15 RoomOfMush wrote: Since the very beginning of SC2 I wanted the Hydra and Roach to swap places. Make Hydra the T1.5 unit with 1 supply cost and Roach the T2 unit with more beef and bonus damage against armored. This way zerg has early anti-air and is better against force fields and timing attacks (because hydras have higher range then roaches and take less damage from most attack types) and with Roaches becoming stronger zerg can go better into the late game.
I really dont understand why Blizzard wanted Hydralisks to be T2.
I can answer that.
Dustin said that he doesn't want to see hydras in all games, to common. Can you believe that when roaches do the same ?
I'm so glad Dustin switched to Heroes.
|
On July 07 2015 05:58 ZergLingShepherd1 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2015 05:15 RoomOfMush wrote: Since the very beginning of SC2 I wanted the Hydra and Roach to swap places. Make Hydra the T1.5 unit with 1 supply cost and Roach the T2 unit with more beef and bonus damage against armored. This way zerg has early anti-air and is better against force fields and timing attacks (because hydras have higher range then roaches and take less damage from most attack types) and with Roaches becoming stronger zerg can go better into the late game.
I really dont understand why Blizzard wanted Hydralisks to be T2. I can answer that. Dustin said that he doesn't want to see hydras in all games, to common. Can you believe that when roaches do the same ? I'm so glad Dustin switched to Heroes. Did he actually say that or are you just making that up / is it an urban legend? Because if this is true then I can just lolpalm and cry.
|
On July 07 2015 06:08 RoomOfMush wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2015 05:58 ZergLingShepherd1 wrote:On July 07 2015 05:15 RoomOfMush wrote: Since the very beginning of SC2 I wanted the Hydra and Roach to swap places. Make Hydra the T1.5 unit with 1 supply cost and Roach the T2 unit with more beef and bonus damage against armored. This way zerg has early anti-air and is better against force fields and timing attacks (because hydras have higher range then roaches and take less damage from most attack types) and with Roaches becoming stronger zerg can go better into the late game.
I really dont understand why Blizzard wanted Hydralisks to be T2. I can answer that. Dustin said that he doesn't want to see hydras in all games, to common. Can you believe that when roaches do the same ? I'm so glad Dustin switched to Heroes. Did he actually say that or are you just making that up / is it an urban legend? Because if this is true then I can just lolpalm and cry.
He said that , you can search on google or ask other people from WoL. I know it sounds dumb but that is because it is.
And if you want a fun fact David Kim was the one who implemented the free units concept in sc2.
|
|
|
|