Its not fun to get all in... or if you dont get all in, you get crushed by mass roach cuz you played to safe and to defensive.
Is there any way to improve the scouting in this match up ?
Maybe buff overlord speed ?
Forum Index > Closed |
ZergLingShepherd1
404 Posts
Its not fun to get all in... or if you dont get all in, you get crushed by mass roach cuz you played to safe and to defensive. Is there any way to improve the scouting in this match up ? Maybe buff overlord speed ? | ||
wUndertUnge
United States1125 Posts
What openings are you using in ZvZ? I like 17/17/17 pool/gas/hatch because it is fairly safe, and gives you the option to make a ton of defensive lings if you scout getting all-inned. | ||
Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
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ZergLingShepherd1
404 Posts
On July 15 2015 21:15 wUndertUnge wrote: The problem with buffing OL speed for ZvZ is you buff it for every other match up. What openings are you using in ZvZ? I like 17/17/17 pool/gas/hatch because it is fairly safe, and gives you the option to make a ton of defensive lings if you scout getting all-inned. The same as you 17/17/17 but it fails badly if its not all in and his going greedy. You die to 1/1 roach, you dont even get to rush lukers or something to hold the economical damage that you will take. There is also a few drops with bane sneaking at the same time. Drone scouting works but if they hide lings its still pretty bad. And it doenst work every time if he has the queen out and in good postion. | ||
[PkF] Wire
France24187 Posts
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Ovid
United Kingdom948 Posts
On July 15 2015 21:22 Teoita wrote: Yeah we raised this issue in our first impressions article: because the game starts faster but overlords don't, zergs have a harder time scouting in the early game. In most matchup i think it comes down to having at most one overlord scout, rather than consistently having two like in hots and wol. It's probably too early to tell if that's a problem (zerg between creep and queens is a pretty decent defensive race anyway), but it's definitely something worth discussing. Pretty sure it's not to early, the reason for the 12 worker changes was supposedly to skip lots of downtime, they've saved 20 seconds at the cost of changing the earlygame for all races destroying most early game aggression and making scouting things much harder early/mid game all ins are very hard to scout or do anything about. Pretty much the 12 worker changes kills a lot of strategies and makes scouting much much harder it was it just wasn't a necessary change. | ||
Big J
Austria16289 Posts
So, if the maps specific feature is scouting randomness and scouting randomness is a problem, we just shouldn't use such maps. On July 15 2015 21:32 [PkF] Wire wrote: I think it's time we now look seriously at some gameplay issues such as ZvZ scouting, hatch tech drops, adepts and P in general (remove the colossus if it's going to stay like that)... I'm quite ok with some of these issues not being hotfixed right now, for as long as blizzard is aware of them. Like they said they are seeing drops a lot in their intern data. (thank you david kim for the feedback threads) At the moment there are still quite some heavy changes being done that may eventually help adress some of those problems, and some of those problems may kind of cancel each other out. E.g. I think strong adepts and early drops make for quite interesting early ZvP gameplay, because the adepts are kind of the counter to the ling drops, but the ling drops kind of prevent the protoss from being fully in your face. I feel like this is quite an interesting game dynamic at the moment, though I would fully agree that based upon my own drop abuse that they are plenty strong. | ||
Ovid
United Kingdom948 Posts
On July 15 2015 21:45 Big J wrote: True, but the solution is rather simple: You remove 4player maps. Why? Because the only feature 4p maps bring to the table is scouting randomness early. So, if the maps specific feature is scouting randomness and scouting randomness is a problem, we just shouldn't use such maps. So we should narrow strategies so we can "save" 20 seconds a game? The change feels good to some people but I theorize it's just because it's new. I will go back to the adage of why fix what is not broke? | ||
Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On July 15 2015 21:51 Ovid wrote: Show nested quote + On July 15 2015 21:45 Big J wrote: True, but the solution is rather simple: You remove 4player maps. Why? Because the only feature 4p maps bring to the table is scouting randomness early. So, if the maps specific feature is scouting randomness and scouting randomness is a problem, we just shouldn't use such maps. So we should narrow strategies so we can "save" 20 seconds a game? The change feels good to some people but I theorize it's just because it's new. I will go back to the adage of why fix what is not broke? Oh no, that's not what I'm implying. I'm 100% on your side for the exact reasons you give about the 12worker start. But I'm not a big fan of 4p maps for the very exact reason given by the OP, regardless of whether it is LotV 12worker late overlord scouting, or 6worker PvP haha-I-know-what-you're-doing-but-you-are-blind HotS. It's bad, and it's like the only feature that isn't replicable for a 2player map that a 4p map has. Like, if you just want that 4p map because it is a good map and you want the dynamics without the scouting luck early, you could just reveal the starting locations once the players spawned. The new minimap icon of blizzard would be perfectly fit for that. Everything stays the same, just that you would always send out your scouts in the proper direction. | ||
ZergLingShepherd1
404 Posts
This is dumb honestly. | ||
Pseudorandom
United States120 Posts
IMO sounds like you are trying to open too greedy, the rock/paper/scissors of ZvZ feels a lot more punishing in LotV. Could be everyone is used to HotS get to roach, keep making roaches, which is not as safe as it was. Use queens to block the ramp, if you scout early lings get a bane nest before speed, have good micro. All the usual ZvZ defensive plays... | ||
ZergLingShepherd1
404 Posts
On July 16 2015 00:07 Pseudorandom wrote: I speedling into muta every game and any opponent I've had that went for roach slowly dies as they can't get their third fast enough or deal enough damage with roaches.. IMO sounds like you are trying to open too greedy, the rock/paper/scissors of ZvZ feels a lot more punishing in LotV. Could be everyone is used to HotS get to roach, keep making roaches, which is not as safe as it was. Use queens to block the ramp, if you scout early lings get a bane nest before speed, have good micro. All the usual ZvZ defensive plays... I tried a 14/14 still got punished its way to coin flip. | ||
[PkF] Wire
France24187 Posts
On July 15 2015 21:45 Big J wrote: True, but the solution is rather simple: You remove 4player maps. Why? Because the only feature 4p maps bring to the table is scouting randomness early. So, if the maps specific feature is scouting randomness and scouting randomness is a problem, we just shouldn't use such maps. Show nested quote + On July 15 2015 21:32 [PkF] Wire wrote: I think it's time we now look seriously at some gameplay issues such as ZvZ scouting, hatch tech drops, adepts and P in general (remove the colossus if it's going to stay like that)... I'm quite ok with some of these issues not being hotfixed right now, for as long as blizzard is aware of them. Like they said they are seeing drops a lot in their intern data. (thank you david kim for the feedback threads) At the moment there are still quite some heavy changes being done that may eventually help adress some of those problems, and some of those problems may kind of cancel each other out. E.g. I think strong adepts and early drops make for quite interesting early ZvP gameplay, because the adepts are kind of the counter to the ling drops, but the ling drops kind of prevent the protoss from being fully in your face. I feel like this is quite an interesting game dynamic at the moment, though I would fully agree that based upon my own drop abuse that they are plenty strong. I disagree that this dynamic is interesting, I'd rather have the two sides having good solid strats available than each side having really strong gimmicks that you have to build your early game around. | ||
AicyDC
United Kingdom67 Posts
You have the economy to do it. | ||
ZergLingShepherd1
404 Posts
On July 16 2015 01:38 AicyDC wrote: Drone scout! You have the economy to do it. I will say it again... if you dronescout and go pool first.... a hatch first speedling all-in can easily kill you. | ||
BisuDagger
Bisutopia19027 Posts
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Pseudorandom
United States120 Posts
On July 16 2015 00:54 ZergLingShepherd1 wrote: Show nested quote + On July 16 2015 00:07 Pseudorandom wrote: I speedling into muta every game and any opponent I've had that went for roach slowly dies as they can't get their third fast enough or deal enough damage with roaches.. IMO sounds like you are trying to open too greedy, the rock/paper/scissors of ZvZ feels a lot more punishing in LotV. Could be everyone is used to HotS get to roach, keep making roaches, which is not as safe as it was. Use queens to block the ramp, if you scout early lings get a bane nest before speed, have good micro. All the usual ZvZ defensive plays... I tried a 14/14 still got punished its way to coin flip. Got punished how and by what? Trying a strategy ONE time and losing doesn't mean that the MU is a coin flip. Also I prefer a 13/13 when I open gas first, but that is me. I get on around 7pm PST if you want to play a few ZvZs. | ||
Mistakes
United States1101 Posts
On July 16 2015 04:19 BisuDagger wrote: Force zerg to build a supply depot before they can make a pool. Good fix. | ||
opisska
Poland8852 Posts
On July 16 2015 04:12 ZergLingShepherd1 wrote: I will say it again... if you dronescout and go pool first.... a hatch first speedling all-in can easily kill you. If you go pool first, you should have defensive banes before speedlings from hatch first hit, no? | ||
tokinho
United States777 Posts
On July 16 2015 04:12 ZergLingShepherd1 wrote: I will say it again... if you dronescout and go pool first.... a hatch first speedling all-in can easily kill you. ZerglingShephard1, a lot of your thoughts are so one sided and biased its like you think that its soo bad for zergs. You should probably play random for 6 months. A lot of the things you say actually are just wrong. You've dropped like 150 posts in like 3 weeks, most of them highlighting the way that things have always been with the game or a lot of actual just errors because you haven't figured out how to hold cheese or abuse things. I really think you'll look back on your posts if you keep playing for a while and find lots of errors. Like if you think ZvZ scouting is bad, you should really try pvp. A pylon anywhere on the map can end the game, a building which is placed anywhere on the map can end the game. TvT Terran drops coming from any angle can end it and a building can literally be any assortment of tech. ZvZ is probably one of the most stable matchups in the game, arguably more than that ZvT, and ZvP. It has the easiest scouting of the mirror matches. That why the best zergs tend to win in it. A drone scout doesn't make it impossible to stay close, as was common with zergs playing save in proleague like byul, rogue, who have won games drone scouting and holding speedling allins, and the builds time out some what similar if you do some benchmarking. Typically you can go pool first into hatch to play safe. You end up slightly behind to greedier playstyles. This is why 15/16 is used in hots a lot on 4 player maps. You can use the drone to force certain things out from the player to help make it efficient. Similarly a common opener for 4 player maps is double extractor trick pool, gas, hatch. The pool goes down before 50 seconds, easily in time to hold anything they throw at you and with the gas you can pressure into a third. Alternatively, you can get later gas and extra queens if they push you. Really, in LOTV the attacks come at a reasonable time to defend with safe openers and with sufficient time to scout. Speedling drops happen @4:30, ling allins off hatchery first come around 4 minutes, and come around 3:30 off speed before expand. Slow lings/banes will not kill you unless you have bad worker micro. the minute less time travel distance is negligible. I really think you should be more careful when making a lot of the statements you do. | ||
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