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Blizzard has been talking a lot about nerfing warpgate somehow, throwing out complex ideas about warpgates only warping in to other warpgates or giving pylons upgrade-able "warp-in power". They've also discussed the strength of gateway units and forcefield, although they haven't proposed much besides a burst damage increase to the zealot.
In 2011, Khaydarin Amulet was removed from the game. The reason for this was because the ability to warp-in a storm was considered too strong. However, the ability to warp-in a forcefield has remained to this day, as sentries start with enough energy for one.
One suggestion that hasn't dominated discussion is making some units produceable only by gateways and not by warpgates. This could include sentries as well as high and dark templar. This would remove the ability to warp in a forcefield, allow Blizzard to possibly bring Khaydarin Amulet back, and make DT harass slightly harder.
In exchange, sentries could have the campaign shield battery ability perhaps without being too strong, zealots could get the proposed burst damage buff, and protoss would possibly be less "easy to master" due to having to juggle macro between gateways and warp gates.
I didn't put too much thought into this so I'm guessing the fact that I haven't seen this suggested means there's some huge flaw with it, so sorry if that's the case.
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I'll say it again, where are Pro Korean SC2 players complaining about Warpgate ?
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what race do you play and what league are you in
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Why do we need to "exchange" warp-in for gateway unit buffs? Other races got straight buffs and new units, but gateway units were given nothing in compensation. Zealot/archon was a viable strategy in WoL, but then Blizzard totally shit on it by introducing widow mines and hellbats. Gateway units have lots of counters so unless you give them some way to deal with those counters they'll never be good.
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No no no no no no. I've said it before, but there is no suggestion I hate more than the idea of forcing Protoss players to constantly switch their main production buildings back and forth between two radically different kinds of macro on the fly in order to maximize the correct ratio of gateways to warpgates and respond to things. It would be so karking annoying I don't even want to think about it. Protoss macro right now is one of the smoothest experiences in the game, and I think that's a feature, not a bug.
I'm very glad people are thinking about improving Protoss so much, and I appreciate the effort that went into making the OP, but I really don't like this suggestion at all.
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On July 26 2015 14:59 Captain Peabody wrote: No no no no no no. I've said it before, but there is no suggestion I hate more than the idea of forcing Protoss players to constantly switch their main production buildings back and forth between two radically different kinds of macro on the fly in order to maximize the correct ratio of gateways to warpgates and respond to things.
It'd be kinda like what Terran has to deal with...
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On July 26 2015 13:22 SwiftRH wrote: what race do you play and what league are you in Irrelevant. Do have at the man, or examine why he may think the way he does. Instead examine the principle, the object, and refute that instead.
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On July 26 2015 12:54 Parcelleus wrote: I'll say it again, where are Pro Korean SC2 players complaining about Warpgate ? David Kim just wants to keep the reddit hivemind happy.
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Warpgates should just produce significantly slower than gateways. (gateways producing some units faster than now) There should be a hotkey for transforming all GW <-> WG, which is queable. This would a) strengthen defensive play of protoss and give a defenders advantage.
b) weaken the consistant pressure of gateways. You will be able to produce an equally strong push initially - morph warp gates - but then you would need more production than before to keep up constant warping.
in PvP this would allow for much better games, which in Lotv is basically "try and defend vs the 30 types of all in". in PvZ this would allow for expanding with less slightly less production In PvT this would help with the lategame problems of Hots of warping in units much much faster than a terran after a trade.
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On July 26 2015 16:36 weikor wrote: Warpgates should just produce significantly slower than gateways. (gateways producing some units faster than now) There should be a hotkey for transforming all GW <-> WG, which is queable. This would a) strengthen defensive play of protoss and give a defenders advantage.
b) weaken the consistant pressure of gateways. You will be able to produce an equally strong push initially - morph warp gates - but then you would need more production than before to keep up constant warping.
in PvP this would allow for much better games, which in Lotv is basically "try and defend vs the 30 types of all in". in PvZ this would allow for expanding with less slightly less production In PvT this would help with the lategame problems of Hots of warping in units much much faster than a terran after a trade.
you would be getting one hell of a 7 gate all in if your change went through. it won't be an equally strong initial push but rather a push stronger by the percentage of increased production speed on the gateways. With lesser reinforcements though.
But overall the idea seems solid.
Personally i d like to see warpgate moved to council tech and give Toss a +1 stalker range upgrade on the cybercore.
Edit: this is regarding HotS, i have no idea how this would play out in legacy, or if a stalker buff is even needed with the adept in play.
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On July 26 2015 14:49 BaronVonOwn wrote: Why do we need to "exchange" warp-in for gateway unit buffs? Other races got straight buffs and new units, but gateway units were given nothing in compensation. Zealot/archon was a viable strategy in WoL, but then Blizzard totally shit on it by introducing widow mines and hellbats. Gateway units have lots of counters so unless you give them some way to deal with those counters they'll never be good.
i played against Zealot archon more then i cared in wol. And let me tell you, it ain't fun kiting your heart out while the over guy does nothing but A move and warp in. Im glad Blizz "shit" on Zeal archon.
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On July 26 2015 14:49 BaronVonOwn wrote: Why do we need to "exchange" warp-in for gateway unit buffs? Other races got straight buffs and new units, but gateway units were given nothing in compensation. Zealot/archon was a viable strategy in WoL, but then Blizzard totally shit on it by introducing widow mines and hellbats. Gateway units have lots of counters so unless you give them some way to deal with those counters they'll never be good. I can't really say I'll miss "zealot-archon" too much. You speak of it like Blizzard removed the most strategic and skillful unit composition to pull off :D. Some unit compositions come and go, in the case of zealot-archon, I don't think it's too bad.
With that being said, there is an argument for having stronger warpgate units in LotV (than in HotS), one that is rarely mentioned yet is the most valid to me. With LotV fast-paced style of economy and its overall focus on denying/taking expands, the ability for cheap, effective and mobile reinforcement seems more important than in HotS. Zerg obviously has that, all of their units being very mobile, Terran somewhat has that, with bio, and even with mech, with the hellions (a large group of hellions can defeat most small groups of ground units), but Protoss only has warp-ins to rely on.
I think Blizzard should at least look into ways of making Protoss warpgate units better at defending bases/positions in the mid-late game (when you have the tech but not infinite minerals to build cannons), but not better at attacking or in the Protoss main army. Imo the simpler way to do that is to look at the 2 Templars units. Dark templars are not really efficient in the main army, so they seem to be a good candidate for buffing in defensive warp-ins. Give them blink for resilience and "trick-plays"? But there is probably already too much teleporting going on in the Protoss camp haha :D. As for high templars, maybe give them another spell, which gives all their energy to another energy unit (or another templar to limit silly abuse with mothership type of units). So you could warp 2 templars, transfer energy, storm once, get an archon, and be able to somewhat defend vs air and bio like that? It seems expensive enough, require fast hands and reaction, and probably has more interesting uses (you could warp-in a sentry, use your full templar that you left at the base, to replenish its energy regularly and hold a ramp for much longer). Plus, it probably would be hard to transfer energy in the middle of the fight (if you make the ability AI not smart enough to do it well for you). Now that I think about it, you could probably make the case for buffing archon damage. I know it's not Blizzard's intention to make them so strong that you skip the templar to go straight for them if you can do otherwise, but they do not seem overly powerful to me, especially against things like mutalisks. Anyway, I'm no game designer, but I still think the goal should be to boost warpgate units defensive abilities, without augmenting their offensive power. They're already strong enough at harassment.
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I think Gateway units could use a small buff.. like making Charge have a further range, and burst damage. I also wouldn't mind if Adept had an Armor upgrade rather than a shield upgrade. We would need to balance the Mothership Core to compensate for more gateway unit strength, which I don't think most would have a problem with.
If I could make one change to the Mothership Core, I'd just give it Shield Battery and nerf Photon Overcharge. Shield Battery could work on units directly underneath it.. and Photon Overcharge could cause the Nexus to shoot half as often, but do twice as much damage. This is a simple change that could even out the Mothership Core.
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Russian Federation421 Posts
Care at least to translate for us non-Korean speaking plebs? For all I know, it could be a discussion about quality of washing machines or whatever.
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I said PRO Korean SC2 players. Are they posting in those comments that you speak of ?
Can you list their names and comments in english please ?
I don't speak or read Korean (wish I did, I'd love to partake on their SC2 forums), hence I asked in an english thread. If PRO Korean SC2 players thought Warpgate was such a huge problem, I'm hoping english threads would hear of it. ie. Like when Rain spoke out about widow mine buff.
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Warpgate:
Nerf: -15 Seconds more Cooldown
-units have 0% energy and maybe only 25-50% Shields when warped in
Gateway: Units spawn with energy and Shields.
Warpprism has standard Medevac Health and speed, transformation time gets nerfed.
Buff:
New Unit: Shuttle.
Warpgate takes away strategic depths in Reinforcement. You got Pylon M8? You'll get units. The strongest units ever in fact. Also Sentries + X do get such a nice synergy going against Roach/Ling dominated Zerg, and 150 HP 2 Armor Zealots can easily change the tide of any PvX matchup. But it is absolutely no skill involved to make a freaking pylon and use the Extra Hotkey Blizzard gave you.
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The real problem with warpgate is, I feel, warpgate late game harass. Why do terrans avoid late game with protoss? Because it's so easy for the protoss to camp with 180 pop and HTs split around the map, while just warping 5DT/5zealots and right clicking them on a base when terran leaves to attack. Protoss with warpgate has the best right clic harass in the game, forcing terrans to look at this kind of agression and deal with it with an appropriate answer, and meanwhile protoss either flankstorms the moving army or simply attacks another base with his all army.
A way to balance this while keeping army placement as a protoss strength would be I guess that whenever you warp a unit with a warpgate, the warpgate turns back into a gateway, and that you can turn it back into a warpgate only after a minute or so. So whenever you send out a prism, need to reinforce your army on the spot, or harass with a warpin round, you have to turn your gateways into warpgates (maybe reduce the transformation time), warpin units, and for the rest of the time you just produce on gateways.
This would give (with an according gateway unit little buff) protoss a new macro mechanic and would put back the defender's advantage in PvP.
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No, please no. That would make playing protoss so annoying. Late game warpins are not a problem IMO. That's the same as saying terran drops are too strong. It's a part of what defines the race. Warpins are the one thing where protoss has a mobility advantage over other races. If you take that away, protoss is going to be stuck all game not being able to attack. And the problem you describe are templars split across the map. That's a style that isn't as popular and strong as it was around 2012 when Parting was able to make it work.
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On July 26 2015 12:54 Parcelleus wrote: I'll say it again, where are Pro Korean SC2 players complaining about Warpgate ?
Koreans are a lot more whiny than you think. They just don't speak up.
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