It seems all the buzz in the community involves the weakness of gateway units. This is especially true in the case of zealots. While they are stats-wise the strongest gateway unit, their counters are very strong and they end up struggling to do any damage without being instantly deleted by widow mines or kited to hell.
I think one way to even things up would be to make zealots immune to unit collision while charging. This would allow them to get behind enemies and trap them from kiting, or reach back line units like hydralisk. It helps mitigate surface area issues zealots face in the late game when they can't find a target in large battles while ranged units hit them for free. Best of all, it would make widow mines live up to their name because you could charge your zealots right into the middle of a pack of marines like suicide bombers. That's why they're called "zealots" and "widow" mines, right?
Right now, zealots are teetering on the edge of total irrelevance. Blizzard has actually stated that maybe zealots need to be confined to nothing more than warp prism harass. They've introduced this adept unit as its apparent replacement. I say nonsense. Zealots are the face of protoss and Starcraft without zealots is not Starcraft.
On August 04 2015 02:08 BaronVonOwn wrote: Right now, zealots are teetering on the edge of total irrelevance. Blizzard has actually stated that maybe zealots need to be confined to nothing more than warp prism harass. They've introduced this adept unit as its apparent replacement. I say nonsense. Zealots are the face of protoss and Starcraft without zealots is not Starcraft.
That's disheartening. I think the zealot's flaws (if it does have any) can be fixed by just making it faster and giving it a bit more shields or something, after a real warpgate overhaul of course. I think zealots are a really cool unit, and I don't much care for the adept. It should really be the adept that becomes the harass unit imo.
I don't really like them ignoring unit collision, because then you don't really have to position them ever. You can just charge through your own army.
My biggest problem with the zealot is that charge makes is so you don't have to micro them at all. So basically for me personally anything that makes charge better is just a big NO.
I would actually like it if they removed charge, increased movement more and made them immune to marauder slow. (of course problem still stands that there are units that just demolish them.)
On August 04 2015 02:22 Gullis wrote: My biggest problem with the zealot is that charge makes is so you don't have to micro them at all. So basically for me personally anything that makes charge better is just a big NO.
I would actually like it if they removed charge, increased movement more and made them immune to marauder slow. (of course problem still stands that there are units that just demolish them.)
I think you missed the point, because this change is intended to make charge a more interesting and microable ability. Right now zealots are an a-move unit because charge can't be micro'd. If zealots could charge where you target them, it opens up the possibilities mentioned: forcing juicy friendly-fire widow mine hits, trapping units from kiting, reaching back line units, etc. If you just a-move it, then it will function exactly the same as current charge does.
I agree with Gullis. I don't like charge to begin with. A speed upgrade would have been better, but blizzard just wants flashy stuff these days, not things that make sense.
If zealots could charge where you target them, it opens up the possibilities mentioned: forcing juicy friendly-fire widow mine hits, trapping units from kiting, reaching back line units, etc. If you just a-move it, then it will function exactly the same as current charge does.
Sure these are some interesting possibilities. But as Hitpoint said being able to charge through our own army removes a lot of positioning.
edit- and it would be quite similar as blink and the adept thing.
On August 04 2015 02:34 hitpoint wrote: I agree with Gullis. I don't like charge to begin with. A speed upgrade would have been better, but blizzard just wants flashy stuff these days, not things that make sense.
Well to be honest speed alone won't do anything against Concussive Shells, and that's one of the reasons Charge is needed. Beside that, they've buffed the speed upgrade already.
Just get rid of charge and replace it with zealot leg enhancements. Now, zealots are useful after their first attack because leg enhancements is a permanent speed boost, not something that activates every 10 or so seconds and takes away micro from the player.
Man, making zealots irrelevant would ruin SC for me. One of the reasons I liked SC when I was young was how zealots looked and felt. Now they are just meh. Im not sure just zealot legs coming back would fix it.
This new idea is interesting though it would need some balancing.
On August 04 2015 02:42 Gullis wrote: If zealots could charge where you target them, it opens up the possibilities mentioned: forcing juicy friendly-fire widow mine hits, trapping units from kiting, reaching back line units, etc. If you just a-move it, then it will function exactly the same as current charge does.
Sure these are some interesting possibilities. But as Hitpoint said being able to charge through our own army removes a lot of positioning.
edit- and it would be quite similar as blink and the adept thing.
Here's an interesting video I just found. Apparently this was a bug. But it's sorta relevant here. Even through I still hate charge, here's what it could look like if you were able to target the charge. Half way through the video...
How about remove Concussive Shell, give Marauders a new ability that makes them more useful especially after the attack nerf, and give Zealots leg enhancements?
That way, rauders will be good, Zealots will benefit from micro plays, and all will be good!
On August 04 2015 02:53 StasisField wrote: Just get rid of charge and replace it with zealot leg enhancements. Now, zealots are useful after their first attack because leg enhancements is a permanent speed boost, not something that activates every 10 or so seconds and takes away micro from the player.
I think if Blizzard had any plans to remove charge, they would have done so by now. Besides a raw speed buff is not actually going to fix anything. Zealots are being asymmetrically countered by special abilities (concussive shells and widow mines), and also the balling AI which favors ranged units. Concussive shells are a 50% slow. Are you telling me you're going to buff zealot speed to such an extent that 50% slowed zealots will be as fast as stimmed marauders? Do you know how fast zealots would have to be for that to work? 6.75, way faster than a speed-upgraded zergling on creep (fastest unit in the game). In fact when zealots charge their speed is only 6.05, but they are immune to slows when charging.
A small flat speed buff would also do nothing for widow mines. In fact once again it would make matters worse. At least with charge there is the possibility you can "drag" the mine shot into some of the terran units regardless of whether you're ignoring unit collision. Take charge away and this becomes way harder.
The only case where I can see a flat speed buff helping is against roach/hydra compositions. That is literally the only area where it gives zealots the option to disengage or prevent kiting.
On August 04 2015 02:53 StasisField wrote: Just get rid of charge and replace it with zealot leg enhancements. Now, zealots are useful after their first attack because leg enhancements is a permanent speed boost, not something that activates every 10 or so seconds and takes away micro from the player.
I think if Blizzard had any plans to remove charge, they would have done so by now. Besides a raw speed buff is not actually going to fix anything. Zealots are being asymmetrically countered by special abilities (concussive shells and widow mines), and also the balling AI which favors ranged units. Concussive shells are a 50% slow. Are you telling me you're going to buff zealot speed to such an extent that 50% slowed zealots will be as fast as stimmed marauders? Do you know how fast zealots would have to be for that to work? 6.75, way faster than a speed-upgraded zergling on creep (fastest unit in the game). In fact when zealots charge their speed is only 6.05, but they are immune to slows when charging.
A small flat speed buff would also do nothing for widow mines. In fact once again it would make matters worse. At least with charge there is the possibility you can "drag" the mine shot into some of the terran units regardless of whether you're ignoring unit collision. Take charge away and this becomes way harder.
The only case where I can see a flat speed buff helping is against roach/hydra compositions. That is literally the only area where it gives zealots the option to disengage or prevent kiting.
I mean they could make leg enhanced Zealots ignore snare effects.
On June 29 2015 11:03 NonY wrote: I would like charging zealots to have no unit collision and for the charge to end on the opposite side of the target. That way zealots don't get stuck behind allied units and they can typically attack twice after charging and charging zealots can actually surround their targets. And because charge would be more effective, players might actually not just let it auto cast, so there'd be more micro to do. When zealots attack a ball of enemy ranged units, some of them would want to charge to the back line and some to the front, so as many as possible are attacking simultaneously. The zealots charging to the back line need to be manually cast.