|
In their most recent update, Blizzard have talked about the swarm host and a possible redesign, so I thought this would be a good time to talk about the problems and potential fixes.
If the swarm host is to endlessly spawn units, its value will increase the longer it is on the battlefield. Therefore, the swarm host can't be immediately powerful, but must be weak initially and get value from its efficiency over time. But for the swarm host to be useful it can't take too long to get value, because they represent a significant sunk cost.
The initial version of the swarm host was bad because their power curve was too flat. You get a bunch out, they start doing their thing, and they either slowly grind down the opponent, or slowly get beaten back, leading to boring games.
The current HotS and LotV designs have tried a more high impact version of the swarm host by decreasing the regularity that the locusts spawn but making them more powerful. But in the long down time between locust spawns, the hosts are useless. So HotS/LotV swarm hosts essentially make your army more cost efficient than your opponent's army for the short period while the locusts are active, and less cost efficient when they are not. This makes the swarm host a very all or nothing unit, which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it makes it difficult to balance.
What I suggest is to change the way swarm hosts make locusts. Instead of spawning 2 locusts at a time, make the swarm host create 1 locust at a time, but allow it to hold up to 5 locusts inside it. This allows the zerg player to decide between having a regular stream of locusts (1 at a time, every so often), or saving their locusts for a big push.
This design plays with the all or nothing aspect of swarm host by increasing the downside (more downtime) and increasing the upside (more locusts spawned). It makes it easier to use a low number of swarm hosts, because a small number of fully "loaded" hosts can do meaningful work. But it makes it harder to get a large number of swarm hosts because the downtime would be too big of a vulnerability. So this would essentially make the swarm host an adjunct to the zerg army, rather than the entire zerg army, and create a to and fro, attack and defend cycle for the zerg player, where they balance having a stronger attack force during locust uptime with a weaker army in the locust downtime.
What do you guys think and you do have any other ideas?
|
The best way, and the easiet way to make SH good.
- give SH a normal attack... could be ground only or ground and AA - make them decent in normal battle - let the harass part be the second thing they are used for... locust once every 60 sec to snipe something - make locust be spawn either ground or air, 2 buttons like snute says - improve the AI, and make Locusts a bit faster in air... their slower then a thor
That would be okay for 100/200 unit with 3 supply.
|
How about this: Give Swarm Host energy (max 200, initial 50) and the Infested Terran ability from the Infestor. Perhaps with the Burrow Movement from the Infestor too. Then, redesign the Infestor.
|
the swarmhost should be able to fly & spawn infested interceptors
|
On August 16 2015 23:00 ZergLingShepherd1 wrote: The best way, and the easiet way to make SH good.
- give SH a normal attack... could be ground only or ground and AA - make them decent in normal battle - let the harass part be the second thing they are used for... locust once every 60 sec to snipe something - make locust be spawn either ground or air, 2 buttons like snute says - improve the AI, and make Locusts a bit faster in air... their slower then a thor
That would be okay for 100/200 unit with 3 supply.
If you give the swarm host an attack, won't that make them overlap with the roach/hydra/ravager/queen?
On August 16 2015 23:01 RoomOfMush wrote: How about this: Give Swarm Host energy (max 200, initial 50) and the Infested Terran ability from the Infestor. Perhaps with the Burrow Movement from the Infestor too. Then, redesign the Infestor.
This is an interesting idea. I like the infestor though
|
On August 16 2015 23:05 cordellb wrote: the swarmhost should be able to fly & spawn infested interceptors But they should make sure that II don't cost money so that it can differentiate from the carrier
|
On August 16 2015 23:11 Quineotio wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2015 23:00 ZergLingShepherd1 wrote: The best way, and the easiet way to make SH good.
- give SH a normal attack... could be ground only or ground and AA - make them decent in normal battle - let the harass part be the second thing they are used for... locust once every 60 sec to snipe something - make locust be spawn either ground or air, 2 buttons like snute says - improve the AI, and make Locusts a bit faster in air... their slower then a thor
That would be okay for 100/200 unit with 3 supply. If you give the swarm host an attack, won't that make them overlap with the roach/hydra/ravager/queen? Show nested quote +On August 16 2015 23:01 RoomOfMush wrote: How about this: Give Swarm Host energy (max 200, initial 50) and the Infested Terran ability from the Infestor. Perhaps with the Burrow Movement from the Infestor too. Then, redesign the Infestor. This is an interesting idea. I like the infestor though
Depends on what normal attack you give them.
For once... Zerg doesnt have a unit that does bonus damge to armored units... SH could take that place and open up a new set of compositions.
On August 16 2015 23:05 cordellb wrote: the swarmhost should be able to fly & spawn infested interceptors
Yes the carrier idea was suggested alot... it could work... a ground carrier.
|
What about giving the sh a normal ground attack but give them an ability with 120 sec cd that when used will span 6 scourges.This will be interesting thing and will help deal with mass air unites
|
On August 17 2015 00:31 wrj wrote: What about giving the sh a normal ground attack but give them an ability with 120 sec cd that when used will span 6 scourges.This will be interesting thing and will help deal with mass air unites
120 sec is to much.... 60 is okay.
If where talking hots time and not real time.
|
If the swarm host is to endlessly spawn units, its value will increase the longer it is on the battlefield. Therefore, the swarm host can't be immediately powerful, but must be weak initially and get value from its efficiency over time. But for the swarm host to be useful it can't take too long to get value, because they represent a significant sunk cost.
That's true for every unit that does something. A marine's value will increase the more often it shoots. A medivac's value increases the more healing spells it casts. This is not the real problem with the swarm host, or every unit would have that problem.
The difference between the swarm host and the units mentioned is that the other two are exposed when they do what they do. The swarm host is not because it doesn't have to expose itself to create a useful wave of locusts. Other units are problematic for the very same reasons: the raven, the tempest, the LotV carrier etc.
The swarm host by concept should either have to go to the frontlines to spawn locusts - or much better, just be removed as the free unit concept so far has failed in Starcraft: IT's were too strong and now they are too weak Mules once you can accumulate OCs are too strong Autoturrets and PDDs are too strong if you can accumulate ravens, too weak if you can't Locusts were too strong when they were frequent and now they are too weak Just leave the concept behind, salvage where you have to (e.g. Raven as the Terran detector) and remove where you don't need to salvage the unit (e.g. the swarm host).
|
Or they could just do what Snute said....
|
Just remove it completely, the game isn't worse since it's for all intend and purpose "dead".
|
Make them like the Reaver in BW. Instead of scarabs, they could launch kamikaze units that do damage against armor so they don't compete with banelings.
|
Why not change the locusts? Instead of making them slow but durable, make them more like zerglings (fast and vulnerable).
|
they should make it so that the swarm host spawns other swarm hosts
|
On August 17 2015 07:08 cordellb wrote: they should make it so that the swarm host spawns other swarm hosts
mind blowing... SH that spawn SH
|
Swarm Host and lurker unit roles overlap each other unless you take into consideration that swarm host is only to be used for harassment purposes. For the Swarm Host to be used as a harassment style unit it is extremely unorthodox and difficult to do in the midst of all the other things that you are required to do as a Zerg player, although with the removal of the macro mechanics we will most likely be seeing the introduction to a lot of new strategies, and units that rarely / never get used, being used.
The biggest issue really is the myriad of threads being opened where everyone thinks they completely understand what needs to be done, without testing these theories or the thought behind them. Honestly no offense but there should be a rule behind people posting threads like this, all of these nonsense threads with strategy assumptions are getting annoying.
|
On August 17 2015 07:30 GGzerG wrote:
The biggest issue really is the myriad of threads being opened where everyone thinks they completely understand what needs to be done, without testing these theories or the thought behind them. Honestly no offense but there should be a rule behind people posting threads like this, all of these nonsense threads with strategy assumptions are getting annoying.
I disagree,
Even if the OP is clearly wrong, it helps fuel a discussion of complicated interactions in the game. Most players play 1 main race, and they can only see the impact it will have for the race they play. Discussions such as these help add to players understandings
|
Return the Swarmhost to its original state, but make the Locusts cost money each time they spawn. I think this just solves the problem. It's powerful, and expensive.
I don't think you can really balance infinite, free, supply-less units. *shrugs*
|
Crazy idea, but how about this: - move Swarm Hosts to T1 - Locusts don't do damage anymore - instead, they can attach to enemy units. Until the locusts are killed, the units are slowed and cannot attack or perform any other action (e.g. mining for workers) - adjust CD, number of locusts and cost for balance (could imagine an upgrade for more locusts at Lair or something) - maybe off creep speed needs to be adjusted - if the effect is too powerful against expensive units, make it require one locust per supply to shut down a unit
I don't think the SH can find a niche as long as it's intended to do damage. This way you get a unique form of early game harass, maybe with some applications in actual engagements. There's some overlap with Fungal, but the counterplay is rather different. Just a thought.
|
|
|
|