Everytime.
Often they are doing a blind cheese versus me, so it works out. Just a big old coin flip of a game.
If you actually want to play SC2 as a random race, roll a dice to select your race.
Forum Index > Legacy of the Void |
BronzeKnee
United States5207 Posts
Everytime. Often they are doing a blind cheese versus me, so it works out. Just a big old coin flip of a game. If you actually want to play SC2 as a random race, roll a dice to select your race. | ||
aRyuujin
United States5049 Posts
Historically, the matchups have been drastically altered when one is playing against a random player whose race is unknown: In WoL/Hots, Protoss can't forge FE against a random who rolls zerg, Zerg has to risk photon cannons if they go hatchery first, and terran has to cut hellions vs zerg, and must go bio in tvt. People say to scout, but with the 6 worker start, there's no way you can scout early enough without disrupting your economy significantly, if you want to know in time for these build order decisions. Now, some argue that it's harder to play all three races. This is true. But firstly, the game shouldn't compensate for this choice of yours by distorting the way it opens. Secondly, this argument is incoherent in context of sc2's matchmaking. You'll be competing against players whose skill is considered to be similar to yours, which is the goal of competitive games. No matter how good or bad they are, they'll still be going 50/50 (unless they're at the very top or bottom of the skill ladder, in which case they are irrelevant to this discussion anyway). Now of course, this distortion could change in Lotv. Already, I feel like you can scout earlier because of the changed start. But a lot of cheeses also hit a lot faster because of that start, meaning the hidden race advantage that we're discussing is even stronger. It'll take more time to determine if this change is needed, but even if it's not required, there's no harm in implementing it. | ||
ChristianS
United States3126 Posts
On August 22 2015 02:05 Ignorant prodigy wrote: lol + Show Spoiler + My standard TvZ for a very long time involved an engi bay hatch block. and there we finally have it Got something to say? Wanna enlighten me as to why engi bay block is bad? Because I kept doing it just to find out, and I never did find a Zerg response that seemed to put me behind if I played it right (aside from maybe a few blind cheeses like a 1 base roach rush; 6 pool and 10 pool went pretty well for me). More info, to not derail the thread too much: link As you can tell from the maps I talk about in that blog, it was a long time ago Edit: On the subject of cheesing randoms on ladder, a lot of people just leave the game against random anyway because they don't want to bother with it. Have you tried instead just doing a race specific cheese anyway? I sometimes just to a blind proxy marauder. If they turn out to be P or Z I have to awkwardly go for reapers instead and try to pull it back, but I don't think I've hit a random player yet that can defend it as T. They're too used to not having to deal with that kind of thing. | ||
Vindicare605
United States15717 Posts
On August 22 2015 00:26 BluemoonSC wrote: i think the mods need to consider closing this thread. at this point you're just arguing around in circles, expressing your viewpoint and it's clear that no one is going to change your mind. He's been doing that since the very beginning. | ||
MyrionSC
Denmark140 Posts
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BluemoonSC
SoCal8898 Posts
On August 22 2015 20:27 MyrionSC wrote: This whole discussion is based on the assumption, that scouting comes too late in Legacy. I don't agree with this. If you scout ASAP, you arrive at his base before you would in HotS with normal scout timing, comparatively. Consequently, random advantage is less of a problem than it is in HotS. And it really is not a problem in HotS. This discussion is moot, in my opinion. The best part is you're only sacrificing 1/12 workers vs 1/9 workers! | ||
ChristianS
United States3126 Posts
I've been accused in talking in circles, but it's hard not to when you're just facing the same arguments over and over again. For instance, no one has answered yet, what's wrong with the following solution: -give each race for each ladder account a separate mmr -take away random advantage In this case the disadvantage of being random is removed, because even if you're bad with one race you'll only be matched with people at your same skill level with that race. | ||
jinorazi
Korea (South)4948 Posts
i'd imagine any enthusiastic player has one best race and the other two not as good and nothing like diamond with one and gold with other two, only different range in diamond if you will and not a whole leagues different. reason why i come back to my argument saying mechanics play a bigger role to win you games, not your opening build order. because if your mechanics are good, you can easily adapt using other two races. | ||
Ignorant prodigy
United States385 Posts
On August 23 2015 01:37 ChristianS wrote: I mean aRyuujin kind of summed it up perfectly. More qualified people than me have expressed how it can have an impact in LotV (see ZeromuS in this thread). And aRyuujin notes that both scouting and most timings are faster in LotV, so it's hard to say at this point whether random advantage will be stronger or weaker. I've been accused in talking in circles, but it's hard not to when you're just facing the same arguments over and over again. For instance, no one has answered yet, what's wrong with the following solution: -give each race for each ladder account a separate mmr -take away random advantage In this case the disadvantage of being random is removed, because even if you're bad with one race you'll only be matched with people at your same skill level with that race. you can't even say for sure there's a problem but you have a solution? blizzard clearly like it this way.. this is not a new "issue" | ||
ChristianS
United States3126 Posts
On August 23 2015 02:03 jinorazi wrote: im curious, are people really good with one race is oblivious with the other two? i'd imagine any enthusiastic player has one best race and the other two not as good and nothing like diamond with one and gold with other two, only different range in diamond if you will and not a whole leagues different. reason why i come back to my argument saying mechanics play a bigger role to win you games, not your opening build order. because if your mechanics are good, you can easily adapt using other two races. Then your mmr for different races will be similar! I know my Protoss is waaaay worse then my Terran though. @ignorant prodigy: that they haven't changed it in a long time doesn't mean they're happy with it. How'd that work out for the colossus or macro mechanics? | ||
BluemoonSC
SoCal8898 Posts
On August 23 2015 02:03 jinorazi wrote: im curious, are people really good with one race is oblivious with the other two? i'd imagine any enthusiastic player has one best race and the other two not as good and nothing like diamond with one and gold with other two, only different range in diamond if you will and not a whole leagues different. reason why i come back to my argument saying mechanics play a bigger role to win you games, not your opening build order. because if your mechanics are good, you can easily adapt using other two races. Yes and no. I feel like there's an emphasis on micro and decision making right now in most matchups, less on macro especially with the new patch. | ||
lurchpanda
United States51 Posts
It is true that learning both sides of a MU is harder than learning one, but trying to say it like there is 9 unrelated MU's is just not true. I think you playing as a X, then playing vs X, gives you a better understanding of any race in the long run. | ||
MoreFaSho
United States1427 Posts
On August 20 2015 16:41 ChristianS wrote: Show nested quote + On August 20 2015 16:34 MoreFaSho wrote: You claim that a player playing random has some kind of advantage yet 0 professional players who spend countless hours grinding out every improvement they can have decided to play random even though quite a few are more than proficient with the other races. I think this is relatively strong evidence against your claim. I claim that if a player were to queue as random and wind up in a TvT, he would have a better chance of winning than if he had queued as Terran and wound up in the same TvT. The situations are identical except that in the former case, his opponent has less information. That's the random advantage I'm talking about. Do you honestly believe that advantage doesn't exist? Okay, but there's also no evidence that it needs to be fixed either. Let's say you could queue up in a mode where MBS, automine, and control groups larger than 12 were all turned off. In exchange your units built 5% faster. This would be be "unfair" but completely symmetrical. By the way, the original arguments that this didn't apply in WoL and matters a ton now don't really hold water. Just think about ZvR on pretty much any early map. ZvP and ZvZ were both pool before hatch matchups and pool before hatch was basically an auto-loss in ZvT against a strong build. If anything speeding up the economy makes it easier. The proprotional sacrifice of scouting is much lower and the extreme deviations weren't possible. ZvZ: no more six pool makes it signicantly safer to hatch first. Same with ZvP Hatch first (especially since there's no risk of it getting blocked). Early game scouting was most important for hard deviation cheeses which are less powerful now because econ approaches sacrifice less. Just imagine in WoL if you could guarantee that every game your opponent would go up to at least 12 workers, that reduces the early game options it doesn't increase it. | ||
MoreFaSho
United States1427 Posts
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crown77
United States157 Posts
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12116 Posts
On August 26 2015 12:22 MoreFaSho wrote: By the way I think the pro player argument totally matters. It would be awesome if some day there were a Random Bonjwa, but it'll never happen if you remove any advantage from being random at all. Most of the players here are not even on the level to understand all the small hints pro players see and according to them they do their shortcuts in builds. The argument is OK for the top level of SC2, which means less than 1 % of players. What about the rest 99 %? | ||
ChristianS
United States3126 Posts
On August 26 2015 12:20 MoreFaSho wrote: Show nested quote + On August 20 2015 16:41 ChristianS wrote: On August 20 2015 16:34 MoreFaSho wrote: You claim that a player playing random has some kind of advantage yet 0 professional players who spend countless hours grinding out every improvement they can have decided to play random even though quite a few are more than proficient with the other races. I think this is relatively strong evidence against your claim. I claim that if a player were to queue as random and wind up in a TvT, he would have a better chance of winning than if he had queued as Terran and wound up in the same TvT. The situations are identical except that in the former case, his opponent has less information. That's the random advantage I'm talking about. Do you honestly believe that advantage doesn't exist? Okay, but there's also no evidence that it needs to be fixed either. Let's say you could queue up in a mode where MBS, automine, and control groups larger than 12 were all turned off. In exchange your units built 5% faster. This would be be "unfair" but completely symmetrical. By the way, the original arguments that this didn't apply in WoL and matters a ton now don't really hold water. Just think about ZvR on pretty much any early map. ZvP and ZvZ were both pool before hatch matchups and pool before hatch was basically an auto-loss in ZvT against a strong build. If anything speeding up the economy makes it easier. The proprotional sacrifice of scouting is much lower and the extreme deviations weren't possible. ZvZ: no more six pool makes it signicantly safer to hatch first. Same with ZvP Hatch first (especially since there's no risk of it getting blocked). Early game scouting was most important for hard deviation cheeses which are less powerful now because econ approaches sacrifice less. Just imagine in WoL if you could guarantee that every game your opponent would go up to at least 12 workers, that reduces the early game options it doesn't increase it. Addressing your points in no particular order: -I didn't argue that this didn't apply in WoL. The most drastic example of random advantage is WoL PvR, where PvZ you were behind without FFE and PvP or PvT you died if you FFE. -Turning off MBS, automine, and unlimited unit selection isn't a good comparison. It's no harder for a random player who rolls a given race to play that race than it is for someone who selected it. Even if the comparison were apt, I think most people would think that a feature in which you could turn off MBS, automine, and unlimited unit selection for an in-game advantage would be bad, and shouldn't be in the game. -You can guarantee that your opponent will go to 12 workers but you can't scout until 12 workers either. Meaning the advantage now comes in what decisions you make from 12 workers on before you can know your opponent's race. In WoL or HotS I could scout early enough and still do a race-specific build that involved early gas, while doing a gasless build against another race. In LotV that is no longer possible. -There will never be a Random Bonjwa anyway, so if that's your reason for keeping the advantage around we might as well remove it. Crown77 brings up a point worth mentioning. Suppose that somewhere in an options menu there were a box that, when checked, made it so you never hit random opponents (or maybe only hit random opponents if they checked the corresponding box that let their opponent see their race). Honestly, how many people do you think would leave the box unchecked? | ||
y0su
Finland7871 Posts
I think my biggest objection to not revealing the random player's race is that I actually want people to be forced to worker scout more (even double worker scouting on 4 player maps). This is also why I would advocate neither player knowing the other's race on ladder :D I can't remember the last time I saw a random player even playing in anything that was big enough to be streamed... | ||
Aron Times
United States312 Posts
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Olli
Austria24413 Posts
You can't account for all the possible cheeses blindly (there is no catch-all build that, without scouting, defends both a 10gate 3 gate all in (or later PvP all ins), a one base terran build, be it a hellion drop or 2rax, or zerg all ins like a 7 roach all in, speedling all in or early pool). You 100% have to gamble and if your opponent is smart enough about it, they will ALWAYS have a head start against you. That makes PvR absolutely no fun to play. I would love to see both races shown at the start. Yes, random players have to learn all three races. But I think separate MMR is a much better solution than having people gamble on openings blindly. | ||
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