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On August 28 2015 15:11 y0su wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2015 09:50 SHODAN wrote: you could give techlabs/reactors a "lockon" ability... SCV builds the techlab separately, then you cast lock-on on a raxx/fact/port. this would keep the raxx free for production, allow terrans to hide tech, and also solve the curse of unfortunate wall-in locations Lifting off to land on an addon is fine. I really like the idea of being able to build addons with an scv instead of structure...
A further drain on the Terran economy. Doesn't seem to be the right direction. Simply, orbitals right now are in a weird place, and Terran can't afford to set up enough infrastructure or take SCV damage. There are many areas Blizzard can buff to deal with these issues. We'll have to wait and see. But coming from the same group of guys that designed the Warhound, Merc, Cyclone, and Adept (a protoss Roach that can teleport... like, what?) and once tried to buff DT speed to be equal to a stimmed marine, I don't have much hope for an eloquent solution. Who knows, though?
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Perhaps reducing the cost of Ebays and Barracks...
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On August 28 2015 16:08 Glorfindel! wrote: Perhaps reducing the cost of Ebays and Barracks...
The sky is the limit here. They could unnerf the research time on stim for example, maybe open up the doors for stim timings. Have a Starbow style SCV call down. Return mules to the orbital, but make them only able to construct/repair. Buff siege tanks so they can actually hold positions (and hopefully get rid of the terrible siege-mode drops). Lower missile turret cost. Unnerf Marauders. And on and on. On the other hand they could do what they normally do and make a random stupid buff to an area of the Terran arsenal that doesn't need one. Like stronger widow mines/medivacs. Also, adding in the double-harvest econ model as a follow up to this patch would really help with the worker loss from harassment issues.
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On August 28 2015 15:34 Bohemond wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2015 15:11 y0su wrote:On August 28 2015 09:50 SHODAN wrote: you could give techlabs/reactors a "lockon" ability... SCV builds the techlab separately, then you cast lock-on on a raxx/fact/port. this would keep the raxx free for production, allow terrans to hide tech, and also solve the curse of unfortunate wall-in locations Lifting off to land on an addon is fine. I really like the idea of being able to build addons with an scv instead of structure... A further drain on the Terran economy. Doesn't seem to be the right direction. Simply, orbitals right now are in a weird place, and Terran can't afford to set up enough infrastructure or take SCV damage. There are many areas Blizzard can buff to deal with these issues. We'll have to wait and see. But coming from the same group of guys that designed the Warhound, Merc, Cyclone, and Adept (a protoss Roach that can teleport... like, what?) and once tried to buff DT speed to be equal to a stimmed marine, I don't have much hope for an eloquent solution. Who knows, though? Yes, cost-efficiency of some units and such will be tweaked (assuming mule remains removed).
IMO allowing SCVs to construct add-ons would more be an interesting change that would especially help terrans' early game production ability (at a cost to income - which I understand sounds horrid at this point). This might allow terrans to expand more safely and allow for better midgame position...
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If they allowed a single command center to be constructed by multiple SCVs to speed up construction or allowed SCVs to be made at the barracks in addition to the command center, it might allow for some kind of super expansionist terran play to support mass bio again. Would be an interesting change for terrans as compensation for the lack of mules.
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United States1012 Posts
I think some slight tweaks like making the Command Center cost 300 minerals, and allowing scv production while upgrading to orbital or PF would be a good step in the right direction. Since you lose the scv mining time while building the CC the cheaper cost makes sense, and being able to make scvs while upgrading helps offset the loss of scv creation while waiting to start using the mules.
If Terran is able to saturate 3 bases you get the income needed to support bio play. The mule often led to more minerals than most Terran players could support until later in the game as bases started to mine out. The key is getting Terran to a point where you can get your 3 base scv production up quicker so that around the 5 minute mark you have significantly more scvs than before and it will feel like having less scvs + mules.
At that point you could play 3 fast base bio play w/ more mobility and drop play, or slow play mech/space control working slower off 2 base / 4 gas and then taking the map from there. It would be interesting to see those two styles, and I think it comes down to just getting Terran to the point where SCV production is more constant all game long combined with a few cheaper buildings to get those CC's up faster. Maybe make it the standard that at your 3rd base you even consider putting 2 CC's, one PF and one Orbital almost like a macro hatch for Zerg and then you can pump SCV's much faster if you lose some, and having a PF is helpful anyway.
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I would like to see some kind of universal add-on. You build either a TL or Reactor (same build times now) and once built you can switch between the two types in 10 seconds so that you can tech switch a little better during the game. It also reduces the headache of having to keep returning to your base to swop add ons around. Only T has to do this among all our other stuff.
Also
- Reduce cost of CCs and PFs.
- CCs/PFs can build whilst converting.
- Add-Ons do not prevent unit production.
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I don't understand all the terran suffering here. I'm pretty sure it's too early to be raising your hand for buffs at this stage. Mule loss definitely takes the most getting used to but how can really you say terran UP right now 2 weeks into new changes.
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The discussion in the thread is great. Thanks, everyone! I know it's a tough time to play Terran.
On August 28 2015 22:07 FLuE wrote: I think some slight tweaks like making the Command Center cost 300 minerals, and allowing scv production while upgrading to orbital or PF would be a good step in the right direction. Since you lose the scv mining time while building the CC the cheaper cost makes sense, and being able to make scvs while upgrading helps offset the loss of scv creation while waiting to start using the mules.
If Terran is able to saturate 3 bases you get the income needed to support bio play. The mule often led to more minerals than most Terran players could support until later in the game as bases started to mine out. The key is getting Terran to a point where you can get your 3 base scv production up quicker so that around the 5 minute mark you have significantly more scvs than before and it will feel like having less scvs + mules.
At that point you could play 3 fast base bio play w/ more mobility and drop play, or slow play mech/space control working slower off 2 base / 4 gas and then taking the map from there. It would be interesting to see those two styles, and I think it comes down to just getting Terran to the point where SCV production is more constant all game long combined with a few cheaper buildings to get those CC's up faster. Maybe make it the standard that at your 3rd base you even consider putting 2 CC's, one PF and one Orbital almost like a macro hatch for Zerg and then you can pump SCV's much faster if you lose some, and having a PF is helpful anyway.
This is definitely one approach, the suggestion costs could be tweaked down. Not sure I'm on board, frankly. And--at least currently--fast-expanding feels like suicide in all match-ups.
On August 28 2015 22:49 DeadByDawn wrote:I would like to see some kind of universal add-on. You build either a TL or Reactor (same build times now) and once built you can switch between the two types in 10 seconds so that you can tech switch a little better during the game. It also reduces the headache of having to keep returning to your base to swop add ons around. Only T has to do this among all our other stuff. Also - Reduce cost of CCs and PFs.
- CCs/PFs can build whilst converting.
- Add-Ons do not prevent unit production.
Any change to the add-ons would be QQ'd to death. I just think, politically, this is impossible. There is a whole swath of people that think the reactor is some incredible advantage.
My biggest concern at this point is the direct affect the MULE had on recovery. Terran eventually needs scans for energy scouting, creep, drops, temporary static detection, etc ... but, a Terran could make a strategic choice to give up scans if he needed to replace some lost SCVs. Similarly, Protoss could CB workers at the cost of quicker tech or more units. Zerg has completely retained their ability to recover lost drones at the cost of more units. This lies at the heart of the current struggle for T and P, from an economic perspective.
Maybe not a mule, but an energy cost for the OC command to enter into Economic Mode, that increases the speed of SCV production. The SCVs would still cost the same, and still take up the same amount of supply, so that would fix a lot of the problems people had with the MULEs. An OC in Econ-mode would have some sort of graphical tell, so if scouted, you know that extra minerals are being spent on economy. Give Protoss something similar. Who gives a shit if the two solutions are similar? Not everything needs to be racially different. Give Protoss a Nexus-only Chronoboost-like ability for Probe production.
On August 28 2015 23:02 Little-Chimp wrote: I don't understand all the terran suffering here. I'm pretty sure it's too early to be raising your hand for buffs at this stage. Mule loss definitely takes the most getting used to but how can really you say terran UP right now 2 weeks into new changes.
It's pretty clear to what feels like a majority of Terran players, including professional streamers and progamers, that the MULE nerf was too extreme. It also seems like Blizzard expected this. So we're all working together. That's the idea of a beta, right?
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United States1012 Posts
On August 28 2015 23:02 Little-Chimp wrote: I don't understand all the terran suffering here. I'm pretty sure it's too early to be raising your hand for buffs at this stage. Mule loss definitely takes the most getting used to but how can really you say terran UP right now 2 weeks into new changes.
I think there is def way to much complaining, but adjustments do need to be made and even Blizzard has said that so it isn't wrong to have some reasonable discussion.
The reality is, and people need to understand, all races took a hit but it feels like Terran took the biggest hit because their mechanic was very forgiving and important to what made the race strong. But at the same time I think people learned to play Terran in a different way than at least I view the race, which is much more about space control, some very strong but maybe expensive units.
I hope that this change maybe gets the game back to having 3 more distinct races. Not saying I don't love the macro Terran, but I thought it was getting to "zerg like" while playing the race where I just had units streaming across the map and I was more or less just trying to A-move and overwhelm with MMM. Not that that style isn't fun or can't be a part of the game, but it became so effective that playing other ways just weren't worth it. Would like to see Terran back to having less units that are stronger, controlling space, drop play and harass that takes great micro, a more slower strategic race. For the people that like playing Terran maybe that style has to change with LotV or maybe you switch races. If a player wants to go MMM it should be viable, but with the mule it was so far and away better.
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As far as fixes go, I truly hope they do not roll out some half-baked macro mechanic that speeds up scv production (read: chronoboost) or call down scv (read: Mule, but arguably worse).
Tweaking marine and tank damage/durability would be good. Making a CC cheaper would also be nice. But, nerfs to adepts and warp prisms would go a long way too.
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On August 28 2015 23:54 gh0st wrote: As far as fixes go, I truly hope they do not roll out some half-baked macro mechanic that speeds up scv production (read: chronoboost) or call down scv (read: Mule, but arguably worse).
Tweaking marine and tank damage/durability would be good. Making a CC cheaper would also be nice. But, nerfs to adepts and warp prisms would go a long way too.
This needs to happen in addition to major fixes for Terran.
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SoCal8898 Posts
before they make changes to scvs or dmg or build time, etc i guarantee that blizz will try out making turrets able to be constructed without an engineering bay OR making turrets cheaper to construct.
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On August 29 2015 02:26 BluemoonSC wrote: before they make changes to scvs or dmg or build time, etc i guarantee that blizz will try out making turrets able to be constructed without an engineering bay OR making turrets cheaper to construct.
*shudders* I seriously hope this doesn't happen.
Maybe would could get a supply-independent form of static defense? Maybe the neo-steel frame upgrade in the ebay mounts a Shrike Turret--or something similar--on the bunker? Once this is up, it cannot be salvaged, or only salvaged for 50%?
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SoCal8898 Posts
im not sure. the problem with terran openings is that you have to do something that covers more than one protoss opening after your initial scout.
you have to consider oracles as well as warp prisms AND adepts.
i also think that warp prism will have warp-in time nerfed which will help if you spot the prism and you can attack units warping in.
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Terran does NOT need any buffs at the moment. Only recently have the other races got some love that was much needed. Other races have lost their macro mechanics as well.
What Blizzard DOES need to do: - Nerf Liberator fully, it's looking like Warhound 2.0 at the moment - Give Zergs a more viable anti-air fighting force - Buff the Colossus back or change it in a different way
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SoCal8898 Posts
On August 29 2015 06:01 parkufarku wrote: Terran does NOT need any buffs at the moment. Only recently have the other races got some love that was much needed. Other races have lost their macro mechanics as well.
What Blizzard DOES need to do: - Nerf Liberator fully, it's looking like Warhound 2.0 at the moment - Give Zergs a more viable anti-air fighting force - Buff the Colossus back or change it in a different way
libs aren't too terrible right now, especially since zergs are finding timings that work well for them. i think that maybe their air to ground might get nerfed slightly, but there isn't anything too terribly broken with it now that we've had some time to figure it out.
zerg anti air isn't too terrible. fungal and parasitic bomb as well as corruptors being more viable now that they can attack buildings.
colossi are boring. i hope blizzard finds a good place for them so they don't have to be a staple in every pvx game.
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Looks like my idea of mule being nerfed and autocast is actually going to make the new patch. Excited for it to come back.
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I think that Terran seems very weak since the removal of the mule, and you start to realize how Terran was actually balanced on the back of the mule for the past 4 years. End of story.
Ryan
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On August 30 2015 02:55 cactusjack914 wrote: Looks like my idea of mule being nerfed and autocast is actually going to make the new patch. Excited for it to come back.
Yep. They're listening to the ideas we're discussing. I floated the idea of giving the OC a range, and the MULE could only be called down in that range, however; I also mentioned that if called down outside of that range it could be used in "repair-mode only". And I did not include autocast in my suggestion.
Pretty cool. I'm takin' credit for that one! Haha.
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