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Make two changes: - Widow mines can't target workers - Widow mines can target your own units (issue attack ground command on unit)
Why? - Makes devastating widow mine drops harder to pull off, which lessens a very frustating issue for players who doesn't have the multitasking to constantly look at all his bases. You would need to bring with you two marines (for example) to be able to kill workers, and the opponent could kill those marines before the widow mines can attack. - The marines will auto-attack the workers, giving a cue of that a drop is going on. - Without detection you are not screwed.
Maybe it is to big of a nerf? What do you think?
Edit: Frist of all, I am a diamond terran in hots (and plat random/diamond terran i lotv) which usually is on the widow mine-using side.
To people that thinks that the change doesn't make sense, I must confess that I got the idea from broodwar where spider mines wouldn't trigger on workers. But you could say that they are ony activated by hostile forces (the widow mine being a machine), and workers not being intended to attack aren't hostile. But I guess than doesn't hold since it makes the ability to target friendly units weird.
To people criticising that this would imply nerfing every possible harrass that is as strong, those oftenly requires a higher resource or/and attention investment (such as storm drops or muta harass or DTs).
To people that think that there are people of all leagues that have an easy time dealing with them. I have a hard time believing you.
Lastly, don't you think that widow mines should be changed, or do you think that they are perfect?
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Not sure why all those things are needed, which you mention. Protoss Oracle, Adept, DT and Warpprism also do devastating damage if not prepared correctly, have detection, be there in 1 second etc.. also Zerg runbys, Muta harass, baneling landmines..
Yes, It's too much of a nerf, but not exactly because of the nerf itself, but because of the psychological effect in the opponent, who would not need to prepare and play carefully but just focus all his energy into his build and his harass.
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These nerfs are retarded. Why would you inherently make it so it can't attack something just because of its unit type?
I also think that its stupid that widow mines can't attack structures. They should be able to do that as well, perhaps have it be like banelings where they wont attack structures on purpose unless you tell them to.
Honestly, widow mine drops are fine. Just get rid of +40 damage to shields and the unit is fine. If you have trouble dealing with them harrassing your worker line, just put pylons/ overlords on the edge of your base so that you see the drop ship fly in. Then pull your workers away from the nexus its going to attack AS IT enters your base, so that there are only 2 workers on gas when they drop. Boom, they kill 2 workers max, and you can use photon overcharge to stop the drop ship.
As for zerg do the same thing and then clean up afterwords with lings/queen
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The WM doesn't really need to be changed, but some suggestions that I'd actually take seriously would be 1) to change their splash radius to better pick off mass Banelings and maintain their strength against Mutas, while lowering their efficacy against Zerglings and workers. A tiered splash system of 45, 30, and 15 would accomplish this, perhaps with radii of 1.33, 1.66, and 2 respectively and 2) to change their cost to 25/50, to better complement bio play, particularly given the decrease in mineral wealth that Terran suffers without their Mules.
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On August 30 2015 18:32 _indigo_ wrote: Not sure why all those things are needed, which you mention. Protoss Oracle, Adept, DT and Warpprism also do devastating damage if not prepared correctly, have detection, be there in 1 second etc.. also Zerg runbys, Muta harass, baneling landmines..
Yes, It's too much of a nerf, but not exactly because of the nerf itself, but because of the psychological effect in the opponent, who would not need to prepare and play carefully but just focus all his energy into his build and his harass.
The issue with widow mines is that there is instant damage without any warning other than the medivac boosting in, which in many cases doesn't reveal itself until it is at your mineral line.
I do agree that all of your examples are devastating when not handled correctly, but I don't agree that they require you to be there in 1 second to prevent losing 10 workers AND have such a small resource investment and skill requirement. The oracle is the exception, but the nerf of the oracle was not the topic of this post.
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On August 30 2015 18:35 AkashSky wrote: These nerfs are retarded. Why would you inherently make it so it can't attack something just because of its unit type?
There are already abilities that do have that function, such as snipe and certain spells against massive. The widow mine attack is more similar to an ability than a regular attack.
Honestly, widow mine drops are fine. Just get rid of +40 damage to shields and the unit is fine.
That is a good point. I was just playing protoss when I came to think of this, while I usually play terran.
If you have trouble dealing with them harrassing your worker line, just put pylons/ overlords on the edge of your base so that you see the drop ship fly in. Then pull your workers away from the nexus its going to attack AS IT enters your base, so that there are only 2 workers on gas when they drop. Boom, they kill 2 workers max, and you can use photon overcharge to stop the drop ship.
That is how you would deal with them if you are a very good player, I agree with that. The problem is that diamond players and below don't have that awareness, and that is like 90 % (?) of the player base .
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On August 30 2015 18:18 Robzi wrote: Make two changes: - Widow mines can't target workers - Widow mines can target your own units (issue attack ground command on unit)
Why? - Makes devastating widow mine drops harder to pull off, which lessens a very frustating issue for players who doesn't have the multitasking to constantly look at all his bases. You would need to bring with you two marines (for example) to be able to kill workers, and the opponent could kill those marines before the widow mines can attack. - The marines will auto-attack the workers, giving a cue of that a drop is going on. - Without detection you are not screwed.
Maybe it is to big of a nerf? What do you think? I know it's just a video game but things have to make at least a little sense; Why wouldn't mines be able to attack workers?
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Lets adjust the oracle and storm drops as well and muta's cant attack workers either....
Regardless of the league , plenty of people can deal with it in a good way. I assume you are struggling with it?
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I updated the OP to answer some of the criticism.
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Yea this reminds me of the hellbat... It received the bio-tag and increased cargo-size. Thats such a cheap way of fixing issues. Even tho the wm is not really an issue here, I do not even like the suggested changes. Things should have "at least a little sense" (quoting Penev here) within its own system.
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On August 30 2015 19:35 Phaenoman wrote: Yea this reminds me of the hellbat... It received the bio-tag and increased cargo-size. Thats such a cheap way of fixing issues. Even tho the wm is not really an issue here, I do not even like the suggested changes. Things should have "at least a little sense" (quoting Penev here) within its own system.
Yeah I agree, maybe I was to fast to post. I don't like that fix either, altough I very rarely think about it.
At least I hope I got people to think about the topic.
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I know it's just a video game but things have to make at least a little sense; Why wouldn't mines be able to attack workers?
I know OP already mentioned that the idea comes from BW, but let me elaborate. Spider Mines couldn't attack air units, and if you've noticed, all workers from every race float just off the ground. That was the reasoning behind the old targeting issue in BW.
Because Spider Mines can attack air though, this reasoning doesn't carry over to SC2 in a lore sense.
From a gameplay sense though, I suppose that the reasoning for doing this was that perhaps Spider Mines would've been too devastating in a worker line, and that reasoning does carry over to SC2.
Although I doubt old school Blizzard really thought that much about gameplay balance. I think they came about BW's balance by playing/experimenting rather than theory-crafting.
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On August 30 2015 23:34 okto wrote:Show nested quote +I know it's just a video game but things have to make at least a little sense; Why wouldn't mines be able to attack workers? I know OP already mentioned that the idea comes from BW, but let me elaborate. Spider Mines couldn't attack air units, and if you've noticed, all workers from every race float just off the ground. That was the reasoning behind the old targeting issue in BW. Because Spider Mines can attack air though, this reasoning doesn't carry over to SC2 in a lore sense. From a gameplay sense though, I suppose that the reasoning for doing this was that perhaps Spider Mines would've been too devastating in a worker line, and that reasoning does carry over to SC2. Although I doubt old school Blizzard really thought that much about gameplay balance. I think they came about BW's balance by playing/experimenting rather than theory-crafting.
Doesn't spider mines target vultures? They are hovering, aren't they? Just a thought .
I think the reasoing was, as you said, that they would be too devastating for mineral lines. But it is hard to compare since the economy is so different in bw.
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Widow mine have always been giving terran free wins since HOTS came out lol, not that that's inherently a bad thing. I just don't understand why they're so tanky as they should reward a player for scoping them out and killing them before they detonate.
I also don't understand why a mine hits air but I'll chalk that up to blizzard wanting terran never to have to deal with mutas whatsoever
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On August 30 2015 18:50 Robzi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2015 18:35 AkashSky wrote: These nerfs are retarded. Why would you inherently make it so it can't attack something just because of its unit type? There are already abilities that do have that function, such as snipe and certain spells against massive. The widow mine attack is more similar to an ability than a regular attack. Show nested quote + Honestly, widow mine drops are fine. Just get rid of +40 damage to shields and the unit is fine.
That is a good point. I was just playing protoss when I came to think of this, while I usually play terran. Show nested quote + If you have trouble dealing with them harrassing your worker line, just put pylons/ overlords on the edge of your base so that you see the drop ship fly in. Then pull your workers away from the nexus its going to attack AS IT enters your base, so that there are only 2 workers on gas when they drop. Boom, they kill 2 workers max, and you can use photon overcharge to stop the drop ship.
That is how you would deal with them if you are a very good player, I agree with that. The problem is that diamond players and below don't have that awareness, and that is like 90 % (?) of the player base .
Just because you are diamond or lower doesn't mean you can't try and develop the awareness. You do not need to be constantly looking at your minimap like a masters player. Heck, I'm a masters player and I don't constantly look at my minimap. What I do is I scout the terran opponent, first with a probe scout, and then a follow up probe scout if it doesn't die, and then my first observer. (The only time I constantly look at my minimap is when I am playing in the dark because the terran was really good at denying all 3 of my scouting attempts)
Because I have played so many games, (which you can as well) I know the timing of a widow mine drop. You don't need to memerize it. You can just write them down on a piece of paper next to you before you play, and have it as guidance for the timings. For example, a gas first widow mine drop, (which you can scout) will come between 6 - 7 minutes. When the game timer hits 6 minutes what do you think I am looking at mostly?
(Hint its the minimap)
If they go for a reaper expand into widow mine drop it will hit closer to 8 minutes, and if they do marine first into widow mine drop (not gas first) the drop will hit around 7 minutes. Thus, when you know a certain play is coming, there is a specific window where YOU MUST watch your minimap. After this time passes you can just continue playing like normal.
I think it may be too much to ask a player to constantly look at the minimap while playing sc2, but I believe it is very reasonable to ask players to watch the minimap for a single in game minute. If you want to relieve your minimap load, scout properly.
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BW Spider Mines didn't attack anything that "hovered." So archons and vultures also were not tipped off by mines as they hovered. Given WM attacks air, not quite teh same analogy.
Not saying that's reason enough to make your argument invalid, just pointing out the flawed comparison.
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On August 31 2015 05:30 FabledIntegral wrote: BW Spider Mines didn't attack anything that "hovered." So archons and vultures also were not tipped off by mines as they hovered. Given WM attacks air, not quite teh same analogy.
Not saying that's reason enough to make your argument invalid, just pointing out the flawed comparison.
Aha, interesting. I didn't know that they ignored everything that hovered.
Just because you are diamond or lower doesn't mean you can't try and develop the awareness. You do not need to be constantly looking at your minimap like a masters player. Heck, I'm a masters player and I don't constantly look at my minimap. What I do is I scout the terran opponent, first with a probe scout, and then a follow up probe scout if it doesn't die, and then my first observer. (The only time I constantly look at my minimap is when I am playing in the dark because the terran was really good at denying all 3 of my scouting attempts)
Because I have played so many games, (which you can as well) I know the timing of a widow mine drop. You don't need to memerize it. You can just write them down on a piece of paper next to you before you play, and have it as guidance for the timings. For example, a gas first widow mine drop, (which you can scout) will come between 6 - 7 minutes. When the game timer hits 6 minutes what do you think I am looking at mostly?
(Hint its the minimap)
If they go for a reaper expand into widow mine drop it will hit closer to 8 minutes, and if they do marine first into widow mine drop (not gas first) the drop will hit around 7 minutes. Thus, when you know a certain play is coming, there is a specific window where YOU MUST watch your minimap. After this time passes you can just continue playing like normal.
I think it may be too much to ask a player to constantly look at the minimap while playing sc2, but I believe it is very reasonable to ask players to watch the minimap for a single in game minute. If you want to relieve your minimap load, scout properly.
Good advice! I actually find it fun trying to actively looking at the mini map (although I am currently pretty bad at it). Do you have any tips advice regarding getting better at that?.
I admit that I have been very bad at timings (don't know any really), but maybe I should try to write some down after my matches. Shouldn't be that hard to learn.
Don't you agree that widow mine drops together with oracles are the most unforgiving harasses in the game (mine drops being instand and oracles impossible to outrun) and that the game would be better with a nerf to them?
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On August 31 2015 05:52 Robzi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2015 05:30 FabledIntegral wrote: BW Spider Mines didn't attack anything that "hovered." So archons and vultures also were not tipped off by mines as they hovered. Given WM attacks air, not quite teh same analogy.
Not saying that's reason enough to make your argument invalid, just pointing out the flawed comparison. Aha, interesting. I didn't know that they ignored everything that hovered. Show nested quote + Just because you are diamond or lower doesn't mean you can't try and develop the awareness. You do not need to be constantly looking at your minimap like a masters player. Heck, I'm a masters player and I don't constantly look at my minimap. What I do is I scout the terran opponent, first with a probe scout, and then a follow up probe scout if it doesn't die, and then my first observer. (The only time I constantly look at my minimap is when I am playing in the dark because the terran was really good at denying all 3 of my scouting attempts)
Because I have played so many games, (which you can as well) I know the timing of a widow mine drop. You don't need to memerize it. You can just write them down on a piece of paper next to you before you play, and have it as guidance for the timings. For example, a gas first widow mine drop, (which you can scout) will come between 6 - 7 minutes. When the game timer hits 6 minutes what do you think I am looking at mostly?
(Hint its the minimap)
If they go for a reaper expand into widow mine drop it will hit closer to 8 minutes, and if they do marine first into widow mine drop (not gas first) the drop will hit around 7 minutes. Thus, when you know a certain play is coming, there is a specific window where YOU MUST watch your minimap. After this time passes you can just continue playing like normal.
I think it may be too much to ask a player to constantly look at the minimap while playing sc2, but I believe it is very reasonable to ask players to watch the minimap for a single in game minute. If you want to relieve your minimap load, scout properly.
Good advice! I actually find it fun trying to actively looking at the mini map (although I am currently pretty bad at it). Do you have any tips advice regarding getting better at that?. I admit that I have been very bad at timings (don't know any really), but maybe I should try to write some down after my matches. Shouldn't be that hard to learn. Don't you agree that widow mine drops together with oracles are the most unforgiving harasses in the game (mine drops being instand and oracles impossible to outrun) and that the game would be better with a nerf to them?
Well, it really will only come with practice. The only thing I can think of helping would be to somehow change your graphics to make it easier to notice a red dot in your minimap, which is essentially what you are always looking for. If you see anything red in your peripheral vision in the minimap you should immidieately jump to it and find out what that red dot is.
Also, don't write down timings after your games unless you are sure that your opponent played perfectly and actually did his attack correctly. If you are mid-masters and below, there is a lot of sloppy execution so you might get the wrong idea and think something hits a minute later than it actually does. Good places to get timings from are imbabuilds and watching pro games.
I think they are the second most unforgiving harass in the game. The most unforgiving are cloak all ins which you will automatically lose unlesss you have detection, (DT, banshee). Although widow mines are cloaked when they burrow, the damage they do is completely up to your splitting and not your opponent controlling their widow mine properly. Also, I believe that the oracle and widow mine are completely fine currently balance wise, because they both have sufficient counter play. You can position marines to defend against oracles if you don't want to build turrets, but the trade-off is that you lack map control in doing so. Or, you can build turrets and then push out, but you lose some money in the form of defense. For zerg, dealing with widow mine drops and oracle is alot easier since spore can go down at any point in the game.
The only "nerf/change" that I would like is to slightly increase counter play against the oracle and widow mine. To do this, I would make the turret not require engineering bay to complete, so that if your opponent scouts 30 sec too late, they can still respond with a turret in each mineral line. As for widow mine , I would either remove + shields damage or give adept a quasi splash attack so that you can kill the widow mine if you don't have detection.
(Some terrans do this by attacking a building with their hellions).
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On August 30 2015 18:18 Robzi wrote:
To people that thinks that the change doesn't make sense, I must confess that I got the idea from broodwar where spider mines wouldn't trigger on workers. But you could say that they are ony activated by hostile forces (the widow mine being a machine), and workers not being intended to attack aren't hostile. But I guess than doesn't hold since it makes the ability to target friendly units weird.
BW mines didn't trigger on hovering units, which includes all workers and vulture and (d)archon (it did attack templar even if the sprite shows it hovering and larva/egg and cloaked unit), air units (nor splashed them) or ally/neutral units (which is why team switching during tournament is illegal).
You also had no control on what the mine would trigger, it would always be the first/closest unit in its detection radius. I do not think you can compared both units because they differ greatly and the only similarity is "mine" in the name.
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Czech Republic12115 Posts
On August 31 2015 05:52 Robzi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2015 05:30 FabledIntegral wrote: BW Spider Mines didn't attack anything that "hovered." So archons and vultures also were not tipped off by mines as they hovered. Given WM attacks air, not quite teh same analogy.
Not saying that's reason enough to make your argument invalid, just pointing out the flawed comparison. Aha, interesting. I didn't know that they ignored everything that hovered. Show nested quote + Just because you are diamond or lower doesn't mean you can't try and develop the awareness. You do not need to be constantly looking at your minimap like a masters player. Heck, I'm a masters player and I don't constantly look at my minimap. What I do is I scout the terran opponent, first with a probe scout, and then a follow up probe scout if it doesn't die, and then my first observer. (The only time I constantly look at my minimap is when I am playing in the dark because the terran was really good at denying all 3 of my scouting attempts)
Because I have played so many games, (which you can as well) I know the timing of a widow mine drop. You don't need to memerize it. You can just write them down on a piece of paper next to you before you play, and have it as guidance for the timings. For example, a gas first widow mine drop, (which you can scout) will come between 6 - 7 minutes. When the game timer hits 6 minutes what do you think I am looking at mostly?
(Hint its the minimap)
If they go for a reaper expand into widow mine drop it will hit closer to 8 minutes, and if they do marine first into widow mine drop (not gas first) the drop will hit around 7 minutes. Thus, when you know a certain play is coming, there is a specific window where YOU MUST watch your minimap. After this time passes you can just continue playing like normal.
I think it may be too much to ask a player to constantly look at the minimap while playing sc2, but I believe it is very reasonable to ask players to watch the minimap for a single in game minute. If you want to relieve your minimap load, scout properly.
Good advice! I actually find it fun trying to actively looking at the mini map (although I am currently pretty bad at it). Do you have any tips advice regarding getting better at that?. I admit that I have been very bad at timings (don't know any really), but maybe I should try to write some down after my matches. Shouldn't be that hard to learn. Don't you agree that widow mine drops together with oracles are the most unforgiving harasses in the game (mine drops being instand and oracles impossible to outrun) and that the game would be better with a nerf to them? Actually ignore time(already said by the original author) since you are not playing good opponents and the 2nd thing - switch to friendly/foe colors. This way your enemy is always red and anytime you see something red you should be warned.
And the final advice - go Pigbaby. Have all the access paths covered by observers(or pylons, whatever works for you) so you can see the red dot coming for a longer period! And I don't meant "just the air drop vision", cover the edges of your base too! You cannot have a fog of war there. Yes, it's hard to notice a drop in your base when you don't have covered access paths and edges of your base. If you have the vision you can see it coming a long long time before it hits(usually 15 seconds or even more - Blizzard time, obv.(edited)).
The only problem I can see - you cannot chrono observers now, I am expecting Blizzard will lower the building time of observer or lower robotics costs so you can have 2 buildings without any significant shortcuts.
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