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PREFACE: I'm just some guy, just like you. I don't work in the gaming industry. I'm just a fan and a player. Take my feedback for what it is: the opinion and experience of a Beta participant, and a long-time SC2 community member.
TOPIC: Macro Mechanics, i.e., Spawn Larva, Calldown MULE, Chronoboost, and their implementation, specifically the auto-cast setting.
PREMISE: Blizzard is attempting to solve a problem voiced by Korean progamers that Starcraft 2 is too difficult. They are also innovating with LotV, because tech industries require innovation to thrive. They're attempting to solve the issue within the Starcraft 2 framework because this is what you do, you don't completely reinvent the wheel, and you certainly don't regress to a platform that's almost 20 years old. Starcraft would be laughed off the international stage if they implemented even more draconian and unnecessary burdens to the APM requirement (selection limitations, no building queues, rally points, idle workers, etc ...). Imagine an FPS with no Aim down the site (ADS) mechanic, just because it makes aiming harder? Stupid. The days of Golden Eye 64 are over, thankfully (even though I loved that game!).
THEIR SOLUTION: Try and remove two of the macro mechanics--calldown MULE (MULE) and Chronoboost (CB)--and modify Spawn Larva. This resulted in some interesting gameplay: Zerg thrived, Protoss suffered economically, but was managing because of some unit imbalances, and Terran suffered tremendous economic disadvantage. But, Blizzard found that they liked the reduced APM burden resulting from auto-casting Spawn Larva, and enjoyed the dynamic of queens being high value targets.
CURRENT PROPOSAL: Tweak Spawn Larva. Tweak the MULE. Tweak Chronoboost. Apply auto-cast to all three.
MY THOUGHTS: This has the chance to be brilliant. This potentially addresses the issue of rote APM burdens, and allows players to focus on strategy; builds, scouting, and tactics. It accomplishes this without dramatically reinventing the wheel, and that last bit is important. As many have rightfully pointed out, the game has been tweaked and balanced for many years with Spawn Larva, CB, and MULE affecting the metrics. That detail cannot, and should not, be overlooked or its implications underestimated.
--DYNAMICS: The three are interesting dynamics, in how different they are. They each address a core pillar of RTS: Spawn Larva directly affects unit production capability. This then cascades into choices such as economic development, tech, or units. Calldown MULE addresses idiosyncratic differences in the way Terran workers behave, and directly affects mineral income. This economic influence cascades into choices such as infrastructure, or unit production. Chronoboost is significantly different in that it is the only to focus on the time element directly. Manipulating time cascades into choices similar to the other two--economics and unit production--but adds the complexity of changing timing windows, and influencing tech production specifically.
--Now add competition to the mix: Queens could be sniped, affecting Spawn Larva. Mules could be sniped. Chronoboost could be scouted, and the build choices sniffed out.
It would be hard to argue that these aren't interesting dynamics.
BUT THERE WERE ISSUES: The biggest, which is well known, is that in order to properly utilize these dynamics, one needed to spend a significant amount of APM at the cost of APM for other tasks (of which there are near-infinite). Then of course, were the situational circumstances where each seemed to impose an element of unfairness. We'll leave those unsaid, as the community has exhaustively covered them already.
Auto-Cast, Cooldowns, Ranges, and Assignments basically fix those issues.
Auto-cast removes the APM burden. Cooldowns remove the spam. Ranges remove the abuse. Assignments (for Chronoboost) address the APM burden.
WHY NOT TWEAK THE ECONOMY AND REMOVE THEM? Because the proposed solution keeps the fun and interesting parts, and removes the rote but supremely punishing parts. Queens and MULEs can still be sniped, and need to be defended. Chronoboost can still be scouted. Remove them, and tweak the economy, and units and build times, etc., and all you've really done is put these mechanics on autocast, but burried it within the game engine, and removed the ability for the opponent to affect you. This would constitute a subtractive and regressive solution, and I disagree with that direction.
CHRONOBOOST: I suppose the primary difference here is that Chronoboost cannot be interrupted or punished, like an undefended Queen or MULE. It's a tell, but not a huge one. The only two-way dynamic with Chronoboost is if it gets scouted your opponent knows that "something about that building is happening faster", but that's it. There is no chance to abuse or punish that. This element could be looked at, perhaps. Maybe Chronoost is delicate, and requires "concentration". If a CB'ed building takes [X] amount of damage, CB is canceled.
CONCLUSION Given the context, I think this proposed change to the macro mechanics is a step in the correct direction, and sounds like the closest thing to a legitimate solution that I've heard so far. All the rest--balance stuff--will come once we get this gigantically important element figured out.
Thanks for reading! If you disagree, and think I'm shit, please at least make your insults funny : )
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If Blizzard were to make Starcraft 3 right now, would they implement automated macro mechanics? I'm almost positive the answer is no. If that's the case, Blizz should just delay the final version of multiplayer (release the game, keep patching the multiplayer) and balance it properly, around either macro boosters that are actually usable or none at all.. This band aid stuff is a cancer on the game and it will suffer at the highest levels.
I have a difficult time with your opinions because you made a gigantic thread about Terran imbalance (a bias which shows in this very thread lol "tremendous economic disadvantage"), and this mule thing only serves to help you avoid the steady production of SCVs and maintaining them throughout the game. It's funny, if you watch even some of the top foreign Terran players play, you see them miss SCVs for almost minutes at a time. I wonder how that habit started? Funnily enough, guys like Supernova are still completely crushing it.
As a Zerg, I HATE the autoinject mechanic. Many players, usually higher level players, are getting turned off by this clumsy auto stuff. I'm pretty concerned to see where the pro scene heads after the initial LOTV casual boom comes and goes.
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Game has to come out this year. Fast solutions are used over good solutions.
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So... Do you want to remove macro mechanics or supporting the auto casting? After reading the whole thing I have no idea what do you want.
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I just don't think these mechanics are that interesting or dynamic as you suggest. They could be removed and replaced with other aspects of the game that take up player apm and don't fall back on autocast.
Either keep the mechanics or remove them and balance. This middle ground solution will still need to be balanced,and is less interesting with auto cast because you remove an aspect that some appreciated about high level play. If sniping queens is so interesting then just make larva a lot less HP and people can snipe the larva. Sniping mules is good but sniping scvs is really the same thing. I don't care if the mechanics stay or go but don't middle ground it. Such a bandaid solution.
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On August 31 2015 01:54 Little-Chimp wrote: If Blizzard were to make Starcraft 3 right now, would they implement automated macro mechanics? I'm almost positive the answer is no. If that's the case, Blizz should just delay the final version of multiplayer (release the game, keep patching the multiplayer) and balance it properly, around either macro boosters that are actually usable or none at all.. This band aid stuff is a cancer on the game and it will suffer at the highest levels.
I have a difficult time with your opinions because you made a gigantic thread about Terran imbalance (a bias which shows in this very thread lol "tremendous economic disadvantage"), and this mule thing only serves to help you avoid the steady production of SCVs and maintaining them throughout the game. It's funny, if you watch even some of the top foreign Terran players play, you see them miss SCVs for almost minutes at a time. I wonder how that habit started? Funnily enough, guys like Supernova are still completely crushing it.
As a Zerg, I HATE the autoinject mechanic. Many players, usually higher level players, are getting turned off by this clumsy auto stuff. I'm pretty concerned to see where the pro scene heads after the initial LOTV casual boom comes and goes.
Lol. Blizzard has specifically asked for my feedback--and yours--via beta invitations. Call it an imbalance thread if you want. *shrugs* That's what we're supposed to be doing? No mules puts Terran at a tremendous economic disadvantage. This isn't even a controversial statement.
You hate auto-inject. Tweaking hatches to produce a similar amount of larva, with no clicks, is basically the same thing. Same thing with tweaking Terran for no mules and Protoss for no chrono. You just have less mechanics.
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On August 31 2015 01:57 FLuE wrote: I just don't think these mechanics are that interesting or dynamic as you suggest. They could be removed and replaced with other aspects of the game that take up player apm and don't fall back on autocast.
Either keep the mechanics or remove them and balance. This middle ground solution will still need to be balanced,and is less interesting with auto cast because you remove an aspect that some appreciated about high level play. If sniping queens is so interesting then just make larva a lot less HP and people can snipe the larva. Sniping mules is good but sniping scvs is really the same thing. I don't care if the mechanics stay or go but don't middle ground it. Such a bandaid solution.
Fair enough!
Maybe you could describe the difference between tweaking the economy to make it automatically better, and having in-game mechanics like MULE and Queen that can be interacted with by the opponent--otherwise, making the economy automatically better.
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On August 31 2015 02:31 TimeSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2015 01:54 Little-Chimp wrote: If Blizzard were to make Starcraft 3 right now, would they implement automated macro mechanics? I'm almost positive the answer is no. If that's the case, Blizz should just delay the final version of multiplayer (release the game, keep patching the multiplayer) and balance it properly, around either macro boosters that are actually usable or none at all.. This band aid stuff is a cancer on the game and it will suffer at the highest levels.
I have a difficult time with your opinions because you made a gigantic thread about Terran imbalance (a bias which shows in this very thread lol "tremendous economic disadvantage"), and this mule thing only serves to help you avoid the steady production of SCVs and maintaining them throughout the game. It's funny, if you watch even some of the top foreign Terran players play, you see them miss SCVs for almost minutes at a time. I wonder how that habit started? Funnily enough, guys like Supernova are still completely crushing it.
As a Zerg, I HATE the autoinject mechanic. Many players, usually higher level players, are getting turned off by this clumsy auto stuff. I'm pretty concerned to see where the pro scene heads after the initial LOTV casual boom comes and goes. Lol. Blizzard has specifically asked for my feedback--and yours--via beta invitations. Call it an imbalance thread if you want. *shrugs* That's what we're supposed to be doing? No mules puts Terran at a tremendous economic disadvantage. This isn't even a controversial statement.You hate auto-inject. Tweaking hatches to produce a similar amount of larva, with no clicks, is basically the same thing. Same thing with tweaking Terran for no mules and Protoss for no chrono. You just have less mechanics.
Yes, actually it is. There's no justification beyond "uhh lost mining time while building". Have you tried not taking all the tech in the world at the same time as expanding and making units and sacrificing hellions for free?
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On August 31 2015 02:34 Little-Chimp wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2015 02:31 TimeSpiral wrote:On August 31 2015 01:54 Little-Chimp wrote: If Blizzard were to make Starcraft 3 right now, would they implement automated macro mechanics? I'm almost positive the answer is no. If that's the case, Blizz should just delay the final version of multiplayer (release the game, keep patching the multiplayer) and balance it properly, around either macro boosters that are actually usable or none at all.. This band aid stuff is a cancer on the game and it will suffer at the highest levels.
I have a difficult time with your opinions because you made a gigantic thread about Terran imbalance (a bias which shows in this very thread lol "tremendous economic disadvantage"), and this mule thing only serves to help you avoid the steady production of SCVs and maintaining them throughout the game. It's funny, if you watch even some of the top foreign Terran players play, you see them miss SCVs for almost minutes at a time. I wonder how that habit started? Funnily enough, guys like Supernova are still completely crushing it.
As a Zerg, I HATE the autoinject mechanic. Many players, usually higher level players, are getting turned off by this clumsy auto stuff. I'm pretty concerned to see where the pro scene heads after the initial LOTV casual boom comes and goes. Lol. Blizzard has specifically asked for my feedback--and yours--via beta invitations. Call it an imbalance thread if you want. *shrugs* That's what we're supposed to be doing? No mules puts Terran at a tremendous economic disadvantage. This isn't even a controversial statement.You hate auto-inject. Tweaking hatches to produce a similar amount of larva, with no clicks, is basically the same thing. Same thing with tweaking Terran for no mules and Protoss for no chrono. You just have less mechanics. Yes, actually it is. There's no justification beyond "uhh lost mining time while building". Have you tried not taking all the tech in the world at the same time as expanding and making units and sacrificing hellions for free?
Lol. Ahhhhh, I see what level this conversation will be at. Was hoping for more from you.
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Imagine an FPS with no Aim down the site (ADS) mechanic, just because it makes aiming harder?
CSGO?
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Okay, have we thought of just NOT calling it autocast?
For just a minute, lets pretend chonoboost, mules, and larvae inject never existed.
*NEW FOR LEGACY OF THE VOID*- Orbital Commands will now spawn a limited lifetime super-svc on a nearby mineral patch every (?) seconds. Each nexus can now speed up the production of a single building. Queens... autocast inject larvae. (No matter how I approach it, I can't get behind this change. Forcing a unit out of your control is just a bad idea. Maybe give inject range and remove the cast time? I really have no clue what to do for this one, but the current option can't be the solution.)
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I question the play level that alot of these people that "Oh my God the skill ceiling is lower now" are residing in.
The macro especially the inject thing is a straight up nerf, the game is already multitudes harder then HOTS with much more stringent micro requirements
Not sure peoples fascination with the mechanical requirements of super mundane apm sinks, that's something you literally almost never notice. Do you ever find yourself saying, "Wow Life's injects are sooo sick" or do you say, "Wow Lifes game choices and micro are sooo sick".
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On August 31 2015 03:31 jpg06051992 wrote: I question the play level that alot of these people that "Oh my God the skill ceiling is lower now" are residing in.
The macro especially the inject thing is a straight up nerf, the game is already multitudes harder then HOTS with much more stringent micro requirements
Not sure peoples fascination with the mechanical requirements of super mundane apm sinks, that's something you literally almost never notice. Do you ever find yourself saying, "Wow Life's injects are sooo sick" or do you say, "Wow Lifes game choices and micro are sooo sick".
I keep wondering the same, I see RBBG where you have 2 people doing everything together and keep wondering how many people do they need to see before they considering the skill ceiling high enough, 4? 8? maybe an entire basketball team working together? maybe then the skill ceiling will be high enough for their 1v1 games.
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On August 31 2015 02:33 TimeSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2015 01:57 FLuE wrote: I just don't think these mechanics are that interesting or dynamic as you suggest. They could be removed and replaced with other aspects of the game that take up player apm and don't fall back on autocast.
Either keep the mechanics or remove them and balance. This middle ground solution will still need to be balanced,and is less interesting with auto cast because you remove an aspect that some appreciated about high level play. If sniping queens is so interesting then just make larva a lot less HP and people can snipe the larva. Sniping mules is good but sniping scvs is really the same thing. I don't care if the mechanics stay or go but don't middle ground it. Such a bandaid solution. Fair enough! Maybe you could describe the difference between tweaking the economy to make it automatically better, and having in-game mechanics like MULE and Queen that can be interacted with by the opponent--otherwise, making the economy automatically better. You look at the bigger issues - why can't race X keep up with race Y in economy? Is there an issue with expansion timings? Can some (generally defense) be buffed or does the attack need to be nerfed?
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On August 31 2015 01:54 Clonester wrote: Game has to come out this year. Fast solutions are used over good solutions. ... and I fear this will give us a pretty meh game.
I mean, it's nearly impossible to understand why big magnitude changes like warpgate and macro mechanics weren't being experimented on at the beginning of the beta. At this point, yeah we'll have a long beta even by Blizzard's standards, but who cares ? The first five months were basically irrelevant.
So yeah, I'm very worried. I wish they would design the game in a more elegant way and then try to balance over it.
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On August 31 2015 02:59 DinosaurPoop wrote:Show nested quote +Imagine an FPS with no Aim down the site (ADS) mechanic, just because it makes aiming harder? CSGO? This is a pretty hilarious statement since by far the best FPS games out there dont have ADS. Games like Unreal and Counter Strike is the best eSports has even seen on the front of shooters.
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On August 31 2015 04:43 solidbebe wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2015 02:59 DinosaurPoop wrote:Imagine an FPS with no Aim down the site (ADS) mechanic, just because it makes aiming harder? CSGO? This is a pretty hilarious statement since by far the best FPS games out there dont have ADS. Games like Unreal and Counter Strike is the best eSports has even seen on the front of shooters.
I've just never played that game.
I had no idea there was no ADS in CSGO. That's crazy to me, as COD on Xbox is really my primary FPS experience. I guess that's because of the precision offered by mouse and keyboard?
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On August 31 2015 03:31 jpg06051992 wrote: I question the play level that alot of these people that "Oh my God the skill ceiling is lower now" are residing in.
The macro especially the inject thing is a straight up nerf, the game is already multitudes harder then HOTS with much more stringent micro requirements
Not sure peoples fascination with the mechanical requirements of super mundane apm sinks, that's something you literally almost never notice. Do you ever find yourself saying, "Wow Life's injects are sooo sick" or do you say, "Wow Lifes game choices and micro are sooo sick".
I completely agree. If casters focused on the things that had the highest impact on the game, they'd be saying things like:
"OH MY GOD! Did you see that non-stop SCV production on Flash's command centers? That is some sick macro right there!"
"WAOW!!! Look at that beyond godlike larvae inject! Life nailed his injects the whole game! That's once very 45 seconds for 10 straight times! This has never been done before in Starcraft!"
"That is an absolute amazing 6 million dollar pylon. It finished right after his production cycle and before he got supply blocked."
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On August 31 2015 04:49 TimeSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2015 04:43 solidbebe wrote:On August 31 2015 02:59 DinosaurPoop wrote:Imagine an FPS with no Aim down the site (ADS) mechanic, just because it makes aiming harder? CSGO? This is a pretty hilarious statement since by far the best FPS games out there dont have ADS. Games like Unreal and Counter Strike is the best eSports has even seen on the front of shooters. I've just never played that game. I had no idea there was no ADS in CSGO. That's crazy to me, as COD on Xbox is really my primary FPS experience. I guess that's because of the precision offered by mouse and keyboard?
You should try quake 3 it will a challenging experience
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