Edit: To add a disclaimer I made this video when Zerg only got 2 extra larva and now the new patch has 3 extra larva.
This video is a response to this video:
TLDR: Basically saying Zerg is a easier race now (since auto injects) and that at a pro level terran and protoss won't be able to take advantage of distracting zergs with timing attacks to force them to miss injects. Also goes on to say that Terran and Protoss will have to be balanced to be able to keep up. Which is what I disagree completely with.
Here is my response:
And a outline of what I say
Why Zergs Should LOVE Auto Injects What it promotes - More time to play the game - More strategical Depth - More advanced micro - More macro play o Can't all in as easily What makes it bad - Punishes Zerg more o If lost queen o If building army instead of drones Does Zerg still have a lot of multitask still? - Yes o Creep spread o Expanding more = Defending more o Strategies More multi prong attacks
Zerg had more multitask than both the races did in HOTS
- Think of Terran and Protoss building buildings like Zerg spreads creep. The multitask of both are equally as hard and even arguably harder for Zerg since creep spread really never stops and especially in HOTS they had to keep injecting. - Once Terran and Protoss made their production the multitask of building something isn't there and zerg still had to inject, spread creep, and build units.So to say that Zerg is dumbed down would be to say terran and protoss are dumbed down too because after you set up your production as those races you just build and attack like Zerg does now.
Conclusion
- I think injects are in a good spot for zerg and make the game more fun and rich competitively since Zerg gets a bit more of a breather, (in what i think was harder for zerg) since they had to always be injecting in HOTS and LOTV to even stand a chance. Zerg missed out on more opportunities of micro and multitask in HOTS than now. I think a time to freak out for automation would be if blizzard were crazy enough to automate creep spread since creep spread is a hard skill to learn on its own right. If you disagree then please feel free to quote me and discuss what you think.
On September 03 2015 12:30 TakeDown29 wrote: - Think of Terran and Protoss building buildings like Zerg spreads creep. The multitask of both are equally as hard and even arguably harder for Zerg since creep spread really never stops.
Except a terran and protoss should stop creep as much as a zerg spreads it, so it balances itself out.
This is so biased... I can't believe people are happy that Zerg are the easiest race in LotV and even when they themselves mention it, later they try to show how "not easy" they are when remembering that Protoss and Terran need to keep building things constantly, and do the same things.
It is like "Yeah, Zergs do lot of stuff every game, while Terran and Protoss build stuff and throw it at you"
Creep Spread is not punishing as it is for instance stay with low infrastructure because you need to micro like mad to keep alive your units, knowing that you should build more Gates/Rax! Yeah, like if they have an Auto-Build-Structure to go toe to toe with the Zerg and its Auto-Larvae-Inject, because they are the 2 things where the units come from, and if you lack of them (and min/gas obviously), you can't produce them.
On September 03 2015 13:23 Sogetsu wrote: This is so biased... I can't believe people are happy that Zerg are the easiest race in LotV and even when they themselves mention it, later they try to show how "not easy" they are when remembering that Protoss and Terran need to keep building things constantly, and do the same things.
It is like "Yeah, Zergs do lot of stuff every game, while Terran and Protoss build stuff and throw it at you"
Creep Spread is not punishing as it is for instance stay with low infrastructure because you need to micro like mad to keep alive your units, knowing that you should build more Gates/Rax! Yeah, like if they have an Auto-Build-Structure to go toe to toe with the Zerg and its Auto-Larvae-Inject, because they are the 2 things where the units come from, and if you lack of them (and min/gas obviously), you can't produce them.
Ironic, a terran complaining about one action being more punishing than the other after having the most forgiving macro mechanic in the game for the last 5 years vs the most unforgiving in injects.
Hush my friend, you'll have your free economy back soon.
PS I hate auto inject, I just equally can't stand the mass amounts of terran tears over the last 2 weeks.
my opinion is that zerg units need more micro potential we dont have much. i dont mean spell casters i mean burrow having benefits or some redesign for zerg units.
I love that I don't have to worry about injects anymore. Zerg is so much more fun to play now.
I've talked to several friends of mine who own SC2 and haven't played in years. I told them they were removing macro mechanics and the response was nothing but positive.
Blizz... wanna bring back people who have long since ditched the game? Make the game easier. ITS A GAME. It should be fun, not needlessly frustrating.
This is from the silent majority... ie: Gold or lower players (or former players).
well from a competitor stand point i hate the macro mechanic removal i want them to bring manual injects back maybe not as powerful but enough to make the game more of a challenge.
On September 03 2015 13:47 A_Scarecrow wrote: well from a competitor stand point i hate the macro mechanic removal i want them to bring manual injects back maybe not as powerful but enough to make the game more of a challenge.
I'm just wondering where this OBSESSION with making the game as mechanically difficult as it can possibly be stems from.
Because from my experience in LOTV (diamond so pretty bad but still) the amount of multitasking is crazily increased from HOTS auto injects be damned.
It's like in Football, really. Players should have to juggle eggs while playing. That way you would make the game harder and raise the skill ceiling, so it would be more fun for the viewers. And it would be good for players, too, who could distinguish themselves more from each other. It's overdue.
- Building units out of hatches is the same as Barracks or Warp Gates pretty much. - You can 'mess up' a Zerg by forcing them to make units instead of Drones, killing or delaying expansions, killing Queens, etc.
I don't know what people should love or not, but as a Zerg (Master right now) player, I hate it enough that if it stays with auto-cast I won't play LoTV anymore, it's just stupidly too easy, butI guess that is one reason why some people like it, I suppose.
The problem is that this removal of macro mechanics has made only Zerg much easier, not the other races.
On September 03 2015 13:28 Little-Chimp wrote: Ironic, a terran complaining about one action being more punishing than the other after having the most forgiving macro mechanic in the game for the last 5 years vs the most unforgiving in injects.
Hush my friend, you'll have your free economy back soon.
PS I hate auto inject, I just equally can't stand the mass amounts of terran tears over the last 2 weeks.
Whoot? Do you think I care about MULEs? They were the most stupid thing in the game for 5 years, they needed a nerf from DAY1, and never happened, I absolutely agree with it.
That doesn't mean that Zerg needs to be easier than T and P now, BY FAR, and we all know how Inject was punishing, but it was because Injecting is similar to building infrastructure for other races almost, not only a macro-mechanic for Eco and such.
Also, I play P as well, I never liked playing Z, but I admired them the most a lot of time because their skill needed to keep up the Injects and how hard was their macro because of it. But now? Man... I wouldn' play them because they feel absurd, like I said, it is like playing P or T and getting some workers build you structures automatically at your base without you needing to throw them down.
Would it be fun to only spam units and micro when you mainly need to expand and scout? Not for me... if I want to play something similar to that I go to Heroes, where I need to only do that, be aware of the auto-spawn of units, take some camps and only dedicate to micro.
Gonna watch it tonight. Glad that a player that actually plays zerg makes a response to this stupid video (though I have only seen 15mins of it; maybe I should give filter the benefit of the doubt that somewhere in the other 40mins he came out saying it was all a joke)...
On September 03 2015 23:32 Big J wrote: Gonna watch it tonight. Glad that a player that actually plays zerg makes a response to this stupid video (though I have only seen 15mins of it; maybe I should give filter the benefit of the doubt that somewhere in the other 40mins he came out saying it was all a joke)...
Don't worry, it is a really good video, finally someone spend the time needed to say everything that must be say about the 3 races and their mechanics.
On September 03 2015 13:23 Sogetsu wrote: This is so biased... I can't believe people are happy that Zerg are the easiest race in LotV and even when they themselves mention it, later they try to show how "not easy" they are when remembering that Protoss and Terran need to keep building things constantly, and do the same things.
It is like "Yeah, Zergs do lot of stuff every game, while Terran and Protoss build stuff and throw it at you"
Creep Spread is not punishing as it is for instance stay with low infrastructure because you need to micro like mad to keep alive your units, knowing that you should build more Gates/Rax! Yeah, like if they have an Auto-Build-Structure to go toe to toe with the Zerg and its Auto-Larvae-Inject, because they are the 2 things where the units come from, and if you lack of them (and min/gas obviously), you can't produce them.
On September 03 2015 16:13 Vanadiel wrote: I don't know what people should love or not, but as a Zerg (Master right now) player, I hate it enough that if it stays with auto-cast I won't play LoTV anymore, it's just stupidly too easy, butI guess that is one reason why some people like it, I suppose.
The problem is that this removal of macro mechanics has made only Zerg much easier, not the other races.
How many games of LoTV have you played? I've heard a lot of GM zergs like the change plus having fewer larvae can make zerg even weaker than the other races even with auto injects.
On September 03 2015 13:32 A_Scarecrow wrote: my opinion is that zerg units need more micro potential we dont have much. i dont mean spell casters i mean burrow having benefits or some redesign for zerg units.
I think zerg has a good amount of micro potential already to give a few examples lets start with ZvZ:
- Ling Bane micro is probably one of the hardest micros in the game. - Roach/Ravager micro can be intensive since you have to dodge skill shots. - Lurker/ Other unit can have positional multitask that is hard and target fire with lurkers can be effective.
ZvT
- Ling, Bane, Muta is harder than it looks because you can't really a move into a good terran with widow mines or tanks there has to be some level of split of the zerg so not everything dies. - Lurker, ling, muta is a decent strat vs bio and can be very intensive on where to position and also map awareness for drops is crucial for a style like this. - Ravager, roach is another strat that can be done vs bio and or mech and with the mix of vipers vs mech having to blinding cloud and use ravager skill shot is not easy.
ZvP
- Luker/Hydra or roach again lurkers have a lot of positional multitask that require good positioning and awareness or you can lose them all - Ravager/Roach requires good ravager micro for fights to be successful if you target the wrong units or flat out miss the ravager shots you can just lose an engagement
These are just a few examples of pretty intensive micro zerg now has in this game/ has had in the previous games. I would argue zerg has a lot more micro now and because of that the attention to detail to micro is much more important.
OK, so watched it. I basically agree that zerg still has a ton to do. The point I disagree with is the balance argument you keep on making, that sounds like you think the game is balanced right now which I disagree. Terran is quite underpowered in my opinion.
For the people saying how the other races always have to switch back and build production/tech facilities and zerg doesn't, I don't think that is true. A standard playstyle will usually implement 10-15 production and tech buildings for terran and protoss. For zerg it is usually like 5less. But the thing is, there is basically no difference in difficulty between throwing down 3gateways at once, or a roach warren. The one big difference I agree with is overlords vs depots and pylons. But overlords aren't just queued and forgotten about. You spread most of them out over the map, which is also extra actions. Besides actually managing them later on as well, while a depot or pylon for the most part are placed and forgotten about. Obviously besides the raise and lower mechanic of depots. And then there are macro actions that people just don't talk about that are pretty equal for all races like upgrades. So why do they matter when they are equal? Because it means you have a very high amount of actions you need to be doing regardless of the differences. Removing 1 out of 3 is a huge deal. Removing 1 out of 10, well, not sooo much. It's why I keep on saying: stop discussing these little differences (and why I will stop here, having made my point that there is a bunch of stuff in the game regardless of +/- injects). The game isn't "equally hard" to begin with. Depending on what build you do and matchup you play and what your opponent does you will find "easier" and "harder" macro conditions within a game. Maybe Zerg has been the "hardest" macro race to begin with and now it's fair. Maybe zerg has been the easiest macro race and now it's getting even easier. Noone knows. You can do your little dick measuring and cry out how "I have to do X and you don't" and get responses of the same kind. But you won't get a useful discussion out of it. There is a ton of stuff to do, and if you don't believe me go into the game, play a game, then go into the replay and track down every single click you made. Every screenswitch you made. Just everything. Then you will realize how many things you actually have to manage and can improve on anyways.
I watched the start of both and both are pretty chaotic. The guy in the first vid seems to jump all over the place. You on the other hand seems to put a lot of emphasis on your points, without actually presenting much of an argument in most of what I've seen.
Concretely, I agree with the first vid that auto inject takes away sóme strategy from zerg as a race. And you actually acknowledge that in your video as well in the 'you might miss out on some opportunities because your have to inject' part. The point is that you, as a zerg player, have to make a choice at that moment. Do you optimize your macro by a few seconds and risk suboptimal army movement or the other way around? And if you decide to inject, can you move you army in such a way that the risk of getting caught is minimized? You might also decide to only inject one hatchery, which costs a lot less time (you also mention this possibility in your video). Or maybe you are in a situation were your don't have to inject, because you haven't lost any units recently. These choices are no longer relevant. Other choices might come back, like you said, but they are less related to macro, so the game becomes different in nature. I wasn't convinced of his other points, the one on balance re-adjustments, and that there will be perfect macro from now on. The last one seems nonsense, because macrodecisions still need to be made, and that may lead to inefficient macro.
A weak point of your story was imo the 'sniping of a queen becomes more punishing because there are only 2 larvae per cycle'. I do agree with what you said, but it is imo a consequence of the change to the amount of larvae and not of auto-inject. This is an argument for the current changes and not auto-inject. I would really like it if you had kept those issues seperated.