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Siege tank had its role in Starcraft as long range artillery with great firepower and huge range- it traded that very power for all its mobility and limited range it could work with. It was the ultimate glass cannon- Immobile, fragile, but powerful in right situations.
But with the increasing LotV additions, I feel like that the main representative unit of factory is being rather ignored. The new spotlights of Liberator and Cyclone has been getting the attention, while other races have gotten various new ways of dealing with siege tanks- Siege tanks as result has been rather relegated in the back role, outshined and outgunned by new additions of the game.
This, combined with increased pace of game made the unit perform less than it would like to. The tradeoff for extreme range for complete sacrifice of mobility is a unique one- but the long range isn't really its unique trait anymore, with multiple new units, including liberator and cyclone having longer, or just as much range as it while not sacrificing as much of its immobility.
The overall role of factory mech units as whole working together to compensate for the niche roles each unit role has been rather voided as well- Cyclone, rather than providing anti-air role for factory that it lacked, proved to be mobile, all-action versatile bread-and-butter unit that completely dwarfs other factory units.
All these resulted in rather overshadowing of existing tank role and here is the list of tank's function in each matchups.
----- TvP Now, this is where a lot of problem comes in; Tanks were never great against protoss in sc2- It simply didn't do much for how much mobility it sacrificed- mainly due to the existence of immortals and effective warpgate reinforcement in zealots on archons-which do not take bonus damage from tank fire. It wasn't helped by how much more versatile air units have gotten vs ground units in sc2.
Tanks are only really shined against the stalker-collosi composition against protoss and not much else in this matchup.
With the LotV beta, blizzard attempted to mitigate this problem by nerfing the immortals shield against high damage attacks- While this did solve some of the problem, immortal's attack does kill tanks as fast as before. This combined with the existence of adepts Psionic Transfer ability that allows them to come close without getting exposed to fire, and it being tanky-light unit makes it unfavorable to get tanks- which meant it would largely get replaced by liberator as the long range damage dealer.
On top of all that, it is outdone by disruptors in terms in range as well.
Tank isn't effective enough in this match-up to provide reason to building it. Not only is it more immobile than protoss units, it doesn't trade as well and has critical weakness that is easily exploited.Its splash damage is better done with Widow Mines, and the long range damage is better filled in by liberators.
Overall, Tank doesn't really have a place in this match-up at all.
TvZ Tanks are fairly often used in TvZ match-up- but it hangs on later game option as source of damage due to amount of counter the opposition has- which isn't a bad thing at all since it gives opponent an option. But I would argue that there are enough counters to make it rather obsolete later in the game.
1) Brood Lords+ Viper combination Brood lords always provided as "ultimate" counter to ground mech composition, with the broodlings destroying tank lines indirectly with huge friendly fire. This was largely mitigated by opposing terran with terran's own air army, which resulted in hots as rather dull "ultimate skyterran army+tanks vs zerg tech switch" battle known as raven cloud in HotS. The importance on controlling the air as mech stems from existance of broodlord as well as strength of BC/Raven.
But the problem in LotV got little harder due to addition of vipers new spell, Parasitic bomb. Now, Viper was a great addition to HotS. Binding cloud was excellent addition and I think abduct was great in picking apart exposed mech army. But the combination of parasitic bomb and broodlord as means to combat opponents broodlord makes tanks rather a deadweight to hold onto- Especially since existance of friendly fire and broodlings make ground to air counter difficult
2) Ravager range Ravager got 13 range upgrade to counter tanks 2 patches ago- as means to combat the terran liberator's range and tank range. But I would argue that it went bit far in the range upgrade with this- Ravager doesn't sacrifice mobility nor power for its range. It may be as fragile as a tank hp-wise but it retains its mobility as well as bile power with the range. It is ground unit that takes out siege tanks with ease in equal range.
Tank have rather taken backseat on this match-up due to addition of counters.
TvT Probably where tank shines and features the the most. Tank's anti-armor damage is unparalleled here as it provides way to outgun and destroy most terran anti-armor units- combined with overall fragility of terran units, makes it great addition to most terran compositions in zone-control.
However, most tank match-ups in sc2 has always been about air control and TvT lotv places this importance even further with existance of liberators being able to snipe out tanks from up to 15 range. Today's patch should address this problem indirectly with AA-buff with cyclones.
A complaint is that the medivac pick-up removes a bit of tense siege crawling and positioning of the match-up, although I do think pick-up and dropping it unsieged would be fair compromise
Overall, Tank have a solid role in this match-up
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I think the tank needs an overall buff to damage: aoe and overall damage. Maybe like 50 base + 10 vs armored, or even more, and a larger aoe. The entire idea of the tank is to be the thing in the back doing the hurt: not some flying death parade/circus freak show. If tanks were to get a damage buff, please remove the ability to drop tanks in siege mode: it removes that intense position control that tanks are meant for.
Since tanks are ok vs Zerg, great vs Terran and awful vs toss, I think an upgrade to do maybe +15 damage vs shields would help keep it equally strong in all matchups. The 3 ground Protoss units the tanks struggle with the most are the adept, archon and immortal: all units that rely heavily on shields. Tanks might be weak vs zealots, but that's why there's hellbats.
The cyclone has become a solid AA unit now, so that's great. Fills the "complementary" army style of mech that I first brought up. The tempest is an abomination and is what is really preventing mech from working at all in PvT (although bio-tank might be ok). As for the adept, I think the shade should be targetable (and take more damage?) so you can't just dive into enemy armies so easily, and it should be block able by units (latter change is more for other matchups)
Seroiously: blizzard just needs to do try a tank buff and see how it goes. Whether its my changes or not, it's fine.
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They really should just look at Sgt Hammer in HOTS. She gives me the feel of a siege tank almost perfectly (with her slow hover upgrade at later levels being a possible cool addition to SCII).
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The tank likely can't ever have a damage upgrade as long as it can't overkill. With a damage buff the critical mass needed to obliterate an entire army in 1-2 volleys will be lower. Though I would love to see such a change tried, just in case it works. But Blizzard seems happy with their horrible tank drop bullshit and making and then reverting changes (let's nerf the cyclone, let's unnerf the cyclone. Let's nerf the colossus, let's unnerf the colossus. Let's remove macro mechanics, let's replace macro mechanics, let's remove the liberator ground attack upgrade, let's replace the liberator ground attack upgrade, let's buff roach burrow speed, let's unbuff roach burrow... and on and on and on and on and on and on and on.)
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On September 18 2015 14:10 cLutZ wrote: They really should just look at Sgt Hammer in HOTS. She gives me the feel of a siege tank almost perfectly (with her slow hover upgrade at later levels being a possible cool addition to SCII). I would rather see something along side Graduation Range talent than Hover mode as it defeats the point of immobile Tanks(so does Medivac being able to pick up Sieged Tank and in my opinion that never should've been in the game to begin with).
So we could see that Tanks start with something like 11 range when Sieged and it increases with every 3 seconds while Sieged up to 15 range. Or that they deal more damage further the target is from them(so we would have 2 instances of their damage, one when target is at 8 range or less from them, and for example adding +10-20 damage when target is at 9 or more range from them). Or you can somehow combine both of these things, I don't know, just throwing out ideas.
But to be honest I think that Tanks will find their place again once some things are changed. Liberator nerfs will probably ensue that Tanks are more useful, before the patch all I've seen in TvZ was Bio with mass Liberators. I also think that Ravager 13 range Corrosive Bile won't make it to the final version and will be reduced to 11 or something like that.
On September 18 2015 14:21 Bohemond wrote: The tank likely can't ever have a damage upgrade as long as it can't overkill. With a damage buff the critical mass needed to obliterate an entire army in 1-2 volleys will be lower. This is also true, people don't think much about it but a lot of counters that were possible in BW are close to impossible now because Tanks don't overkill now.
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I wouldn't underestimate tanks in TvP. In SuperNova's second to last stream, he exclaimed "I've finally figured out how to beat Protoss" and this was during the patch of 30 dmg Chargelots and no MULE. He was basically the only terran in the top 20 (except TOP sometimes) because of his innovative tank usage.
His composition was Marine/Tank, just like what you'd see in TvT. He would put Tanks in front of marines to exploit the fact that Adepts can't target down marines effectively and use Medivacs to do drop micro and dodge shots. He'd shred with his first Tank+Medivac+~10 Marine pushes and continue to apply pressure throughout the midgame. Versus Phoenix he'd drop Thors in front of Marines and whatnot. I continue to play Marine/Tank in TvP and I think it works well if you have the control.
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On September 18 2015 16:22 WhiteLuminous wrote: I wouldn't underestimate tanks in TvP. In SuperNova's second to last stream, he exclaimed "I've finally figured out how to beat Protoss" and this was during the patch of 30 dmg Chargelots and no MULE. He was basically the only terran in the top 20 (except TOP sometimes) because of his innovative tank usage.
His composition was Marine/Tank, just like what you'd see in TvT. He would put Tanks in front of marines to exploit the fact that Adepts can't target down marines effectively and use Medivacs to do drop micro and dodge shots. He'd shred with his first Tank+Medivac+~10 Marine pushes and continue to apply pressure throughout the midgame. Versus Phoenix he'd drop Thors in front of Marines and whatnot. I continue to play Marine/Tank in TvP and I think it works well if you have the control. Going to be honest, that's basically the opposite of what I want to see with siege tanks. They shouldn't really rely on control at all. Its supposed to be a mental game where you siege them up, and the micro is for the supplemental units.
Also I don't mind them melting armies. If they don't, they should have even more range.
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On September 18 2015 16:22 WhiteLuminous wrote: I wouldn't underestimate tanks in TvP. In SuperNova's second to last stream, he exclaimed "I've finally figured out how to beat Protoss" and this was during the patch of 30 dmg Chargelots and no MULE. He was basically the only terran in the top 20 (except TOP sometimes) because of his innovative tank usage.
His composition was Marine/Tank, just like what you'd see in TvT. He would put Tanks in front of marines to exploit the fact that Adepts can't target down marines effectively and use Medivacs to do drop micro and dodge shots. He'd shred with his first Tank+Medivac+~10 Marine pushes and continue to apply pressure throughout the midgame. Versus Phoenix he'd drop Thors in front of Marines and whatnot. I continue to play Marine/Tank in TvP and I think it works well if you have the control.
A few immortals and it's all over. Plus, he's playing vs. weaker players. I doubt many LotV beta players used to be GSL Code S regulars.
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On September 18 2015 16:35 Bohemond wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2015 16:22 WhiteLuminous wrote: I wouldn't underestimate tanks in TvP. In SuperNova's second to last stream, he exclaimed "I've finally figured out how to beat Protoss" and this was during the patch of 30 dmg Chargelots and no MULE. He was basically the only terran in the top 20 (except TOP sometimes) because of his innovative tank usage.
His composition was Marine/Tank, just like what you'd see in TvT. He would put Tanks in front of marines to exploit the fact that Adepts can't target down marines effectively and use Medivacs to do drop micro and dodge shots. He'd shred with his first Tank+Medivac+~10 Marine pushes and continue to apply pressure throughout the midgame. Versus Phoenix he'd drop Thors in front of Marines and whatnot. I continue to play Marine/Tank in TvP and I think it works well if you have the control. A few immortals and it's all over. Plus, he's playing vs. weaker players. I doubt many LotV beta players used to be GSL Code S regulars.
He'd load up and doom drop versus immobile armies, and constantly be moving around so I wouldn't say that the answer is as simple as "add immortals". And yes, SuperNova was outclassing everyone else on ladder, but my point isn't that tanks are necessarily balanced to the point of wonderful utility in the matchup, but rather that we should wait for creative and skilled players to show what the tank can offer before we theorycraft it into uselessness.
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This has already be discussed a 100 times.
To solve tanks you need to add the malestorm rounds upgrade in the campaign that increases the damage vs single target and retain the splash while removing the overkill prevention. But someone's ego is just too damn high to do something about it.
The only reason I'm getting the game is for the campaign. Other than that, Arcade / MU is fucked up beyond redemption. Economy, Macro Mechanics, Units design, Units balance are all fucked up. This is what you get when you derp around the whole beta and start testing massive changes in the last 2 months.
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On September 18 2015 16:43 WhiteLuminous wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2015 16:35 Bohemond wrote:On September 18 2015 16:22 WhiteLuminous wrote: I wouldn't underestimate tanks in TvP. In SuperNova's second to last stream, he exclaimed "I've finally figured out how to beat Protoss" and this was during the patch of 30 dmg Chargelots and no MULE. He was basically the only terran in the top 20 (except TOP sometimes) because of his innovative tank usage.
His composition was Marine/Tank, just like what you'd see in TvT. He would put Tanks in front of marines to exploit the fact that Adepts can't target down marines effectively and use Medivacs to do drop micro and dodge shots. He'd shred with his first Tank+Medivac+~10 Marine pushes and continue to apply pressure throughout the midgame. Versus Phoenix he'd drop Thors in front of Marines and whatnot. I continue to play Marine/Tank in TvP and I think it works well if you have the control. A few immortals and it's all over. Plus, he's playing vs. weaker players. I doubt many LotV beta players used to be GSL Code S regulars. He'd load up and doom drop versus immobile armies, and constantly be moving around so I wouldn't say that the answer is as simple as "add immortals". And yes, SuperNova was outclassing everyone else on ladder, but my point isn't that tanks are necessarily balanced to the point of wonderful utility in the matchup, but rather that we should wait for creative and skilled players to show what the tank can offer before we theorycraft it into uselessness.
So, he drops vs. Protoss. That's creative and original. No one has tried that out yet. But he made it even more crazy by adding a high cost unit that dies quickly and is ineffective vs. many core Protoss units and requires excellent micro to get any value out of at all. Oh and it's dependent on another unit being on top of it to function effectively.
The tank has had 5 years for players to figure it out. Over 5 years it has seen only less use. Though I'm sure it will see more play with the tank dropping BS, I doubt it's enough to make PvT decent. Seems Liberators are OP enough to beat Protoss with, so there's that.
Not that any of it matters right now since the Prism/Adept attack isn't holdable. This whole beta is a mess.
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Very well written and overall good points. I also don't like that most units introduced have such long range while still being mobile (tempest, swarm host, cyclone, liberator, carrier) since this creates one-sided games.
One thing I dislike about tanks is that their strength don't diminish when clumped. As you point out, introducing overkill while increasing damage would probably solve that and also introduce another way for skilled players to shine.
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I don't like all these ideas about buffing this, buffing that etc. this has been done in the past way too often and it usually backfires in another direction.
This is a general design problem. In general, all air units in LOTV are way too good. People are massing carriers, BCs, BLs etc. and that is awful to play/watch. Like the OP stated, why would you build tanks in TvT if it is all about air battles? Why would you build tanks in TvP or TvZ if you have mines and liberators?
For the game to be enjoyable, air units should be harass/support units and nothing more (as an exception maybe in the late late game as it was in BW). If that fundamental issue is fixed, THEN you can talk about tanks.
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Imho there's only one really solid way of making the siege tank a more fun unit for both sides:
Remove overkill protection and buff the siege tank instead of giving it gimmicks like the sieged pickup thing. (Although if it has to stay please make it an upgrade or something).
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On September 18 2015 20:12 MapleLeafSirup wrote: This is a general design problem. In general, all air units in LOTV are way too good. People are massing carriers, BCs, BLs etc. and that is awful to play/watch. Like the OP stated, why would you build tanks in TvT if it is all about air battles? Why would you build tanks in TvP or TvZ if you have mines and liberators?
For the game to be enjoyable, air units should be harass/support units and nothing more (as an exception maybe in the late late game as it was in BW). If that fundamental issue is fixed, THEN you can talk about tanks.
I agree completely. One reason why is because the ground-air units are not as strong as they should be. Hydralisks get melted by carriers, mech is destroyed by tempests, and the list goes on. Liberators are almost a decent unit, but they do too much damage to be a supporting unit, and therefore can be massed (actually I'm probably wrong about this).
As for TvT, it goes: Tank > Marines, Marines > Air, and Air > Tanks. If tanks were to be buffed, this would be fine since there's a circle of counters. This is besides the point though.
Another problem is dead airspace. Airspace needs to be reduced on almost all maps, because it lets properly positioned ground units shut down drops and air units much more easily.
Air units are just too damn strong, and need to stay as supporting/harassment units.
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Ravagers are completely bogus vs Tanks right now. Mech in general is completely hard countered by Ravagers, it's sad the only match up tanks are truly good in now is TvT.
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On September 18 2015 23:18 DilemaH wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2015 20:12 MapleLeafSirup wrote: This is a general design problem. In general, all air units in LOTV are way too good. People are massing carriers, BCs, BLs etc. and that is awful to play/watch. Like the OP stated, why would you build tanks in TvT if it is all about air battles? Why would you build tanks in TvP or TvZ if you have mines and liberators?
For the game to be enjoyable, air units should be harass/support units and nothing more (as an exception maybe in the late late game as it was in BW). If that fundamental issue is fixed, THEN you can talk about tanks. I agree completely. One reason why is because the ground-air units are not as strong as they should be. Hydralisks get melted by carriers, mech is destroyed by tempests, and the list goes on. Liberators are almost a decent unit, but they do too much damage to be a supporting unit, and therefore can be massed (actually I'm probably wrong about this). As for TvT, it goes: Tank > Marines, Marines > Air, and Air > Tanks. If tanks were to be buffed, this would be fine since there's a circle of counters. This is besides the point though. Another problem is dead airspace. Airspace needs to be reduced on almost all maps, because it lets properly positioned ground units shut down drops and air units much more easily. Air units are just too damn strong, and need to stay as supporting/harassment units. Agree. Not to mention air battle is boring to watch as well.. it's basically just A move and cast spell ( be Fungal, Storm, PB or whatever) Some overall nerf to air to ground attack would be nice but sadly I don't think it is a option now in LotV...This problem is something that root too deep and change it may cause the balance of the game completely broken... Again we are running out of time in this beta and so many things that could be improved left undone
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Me personally i would reduce the gas cost too 100 or 90 and supply too 2, also i would also remove the new pick up whilst siege feature, its such a gimmick
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I just had to post after watching TOP's stream for a good while today:
Mass siege tank pick-ups in TvT look so freaking ridiculous. They are so silly. I for one would not be upset if this feature did not make it to release.
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On September 19 2015 03:17 Qwyn wrote: I just had to post after watching TOP's stream for a good while today:
Mass siege tank pick-ups in TvT look so freaking ridiculous. They are so silly. I for one would not be upset if this feature did not make it to release.
Would certainly be nice if it was set to unsiege pickup->unsiege drop honestly. Does its job as rescue when bio tank is caught out and doesn't leave room for positioning without loss
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