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On October 07 2015 18:23 Beliskner wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2015 14:10 WrathSCII wrote:On October 07 2015 13:48 purakushi wrote: buff damage, increase weapon cooldown time, add overkill, remove medivac pickup
BW tank all the way Literally everyone agree on this point except the one that came up with medivac pick up idea... I honestly don't understand the medivac pickup hate, I think it's a great idea. Everyone wants the siege tank to be what is was in Broodwar. It's just never going to happen, SC2 is a different game and plays completely different, the slow siege is dead. You now get into position do what you need to do and get the hell out. Feel free to use the word gimmicky, I honestly think it's lost all meaning.
The point of the siegetank is that it is a high-damage, "high-tank" zoning unit that lacks mobility. The medivac pickup thing gives it this mobility. Yes it requires a bit of micro, but potentialy you could bring 10 medivacs with sieged tanks from one end of the map to the other one within a few seconds which is just obnoxious. The only fault siege tank has at the moment is that it can't attack air.
Also, Wings Of Liberty had slow-moving tank pushes that everyone loved. TvT was an art. TvZ was crazy fun until Broodlord/Infestor came around. How can you say that the "slow siege tank is dead" when a huge part of the community is asking to have it back?
Imho, removing overkill protection, medivac pickup and buffing the damage is the best way to treat the tank. BW tank is just plain better.
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On October 07 2015 18:23 Beliskner wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2015 14:10 WrathSCII wrote:On October 07 2015 13:48 purakushi wrote: buff damage, increase weapon cooldown time, add overkill, remove medivac pickup
BW tank all the way Literally everyone agree on this point except the one that came up with medivac pick up idea... I honestly don't understand the medivac pickup hate, I think it's a great idea. Everyone wants the siege tank to be what is was in Broodwar. It's just never going to happen, SC2 is a different game and plays completely different, the slow siege is dead. You now get into position do what you need to do and get the hell out. Feel free to use the word gimmicky, I honestly think it's lost all meaning.
It's gimmicky and stupid. It doesn't make sense both in game and realistic(in SC universe). Stupid in a way that it can end a game just by doing that. Unlike other early cheese like cloaked banshees, widow mine drop which is identify-able when scouted. this siege tank shenanigan is not, plus it's a very high reward-low risk play.which is bad.
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On October 07 2015 18:23 Beliskner wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2015 14:10 WrathSCII wrote:On October 07 2015 13:48 purakushi wrote: buff damage, increase weapon cooldown time, add overkill, remove medivac pickup
BW tank all the way Literally everyone agree on this point except the one that came up with medivac pick up idea... I honestly don't understand the medivac pickup hate, I think it's a great idea. Everyone wants the siege tank to be what is was in Broodwar. It's just never going to happen, SC2 is a different game and plays completely different, the slow siege is dead. You now get into position do what you need to do and get the hell out. Feel free to use the word gimmicky, I honestly think it's lost all meaning. When Blizz introduced the siege-pickup and I was so excited to be able to micro against blinding clouds and units closing in. But now with dropping into certain positions that easily (e.g. main, etc.) or instant siege when attacking, I do not like it anymore. Not with this trade-off. But maybe this is also bcuz of the speedvec, which I have been hating since hots. Remove the pickup and add stats. Moar tanks pls!!!
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I also dislike the fact that medivacs become so super important in every style. With Hellbats, Thor pick-ups and now siege tank pick-ups they are even important when going mech.
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Not a big fan of the tank pick up, mostly because TvT is pretty ridiculous.
Potentially a buff and removing of the pick up could be good, but it's getting a bit late in the day now.. and Blizz seem set on the current tank damage.
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I'd be really interested in seeing the tank get +1 range, or an upgrade at the fusion core giving them extra range. Gives them much better positional power but not too much strength in a straight up fight. Maps might need to be rebalanced and maybe some units would take an extra shot before they got in range of an attacking tank, but it would be worth a shot?
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On October 07 2015 18:36 shin_toss wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2015 18:23 Beliskner wrote:On October 07 2015 14:10 WrathSCII wrote:On October 07 2015 13:48 purakushi wrote: buff damage, increase weapon cooldown time, add overkill, remove medivac pickup
BW tank all the way Literally everyone agree on this point except the one that came up with medivac pick up idea... I honestly don't understand the medivac pickup hate, I think it's a great idea. Everyone wants the siege tank to be what is was in Broodwar. It's just never going to happen, SC2 is a different game and plays completely different, the slow siege is dead. You now get into position do what you need to do and get the hell out. Feel free to use the word gimmicky, I honestly think it's lost all meaning. It's gimmicky and stupid. It doesn't make sense both in game and realistic(in SC universe). Stupid in a way that it can end a game just by doing that. Unlike other early cheese like cloaked banshees, widow mine drop which is identify-able when scouted. this siege tank shenanigan is not, plus it's a very high reward-low risk play.which is bad.
I really don't like these kinds of arguments. It's gimmicky, stupid, doesn't belong in Starcraft, X unit is SUPPOSE to do Y. All just un-quantifiable, subjective buzzwords. I don't see how scouting widow mine drop is any different than tank, and it seems that at-least against P widow mine is actually better anyway. Who is actually dying to a single tank drop?
Honestly, I just feel, and this coming from a Protoss player, is that tank drop just seems really fun. whether it just needs more delay before firing or pickup in siege but drop in tank mode I don't know.
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I don't understand why there is never a last option in those polls thread :
"Polls thread are bad". Just to see.
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On October 07 2015 14:10 WrathSCII wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2015 13:48 purakushi wrote: buff damage, increase weapon cooldown time, add overkill, remove medivac pickup
BW tank all the way Literally everyone agree on this point except the one that came up with medivac pick up idea...
I don't agree.
Pro tip: there is the possibility that your opinion is not universally held. It must be shocking for you, but its ok.
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On October 07 2015 18:23 Beliskner wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2015 14:10 WrathSCII wrote:On October 07 2015 13:48 purakushi wrote: buff damage, increase weapon cooldown time, add overkill, remove medivac pickup
BW tank all the way Literally everyone agree on this point except the one that came up with medivac pick up idea... I honestly don't understand the medivac pickup hate, I think it's a great idea. Everyone wants the siege tank to be what is was in Broodwar. It's just never going to happen, SC2 is a different game and plays completely different, the slow siege is dead. You now get into position do what you need to do and get the hell out. Feel free to use the word gimmicky, I honestly think it's lost all meaning.
I don't like the medivac pickup because I think it makes tank vs tank battles ridiculous. The one who is in a sieged position suddenly is in a disadvantage. Everyone just flies his tanks around, if you siege without medivacs the opponent picks up and either hits your army from angles that are unprotected or just avoids the whole army.
I think the general problem is that medivac pickups avoids the need to siege. Tanks are just sieged all the time and in my opinion it leads to bad unit interactions, outside of early 1-2 tank drops which are indeed very fun.
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On October 07 2015 18:23 Beliskner wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2015 14:10 WrathSCII wrote:On October 07 2015 13:48 purakushi wrote: buff damage, increase weapon cooldown time, add overkill, remove medivac pickup
BW tank all the way Literally everyone agree on this point except the one that came up with medivac pick up idea... I honestly don't understand the medivac pickup hate, I think it's a great idea. Everyone wants the siege tank to be what is was in Broodwar. It's just never going to happen, SC2 is a different game and plays completely different, the slow siege is dead. You now get into position do what you need to do and get the hell out. Feel free to use the word gimmicky, I honestly think it's lost all meaning.
Imagine WoL PvP but with flying tanks instead of blink stalkers. Thats LotV TvT.
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On October 07 2015 20:29 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2015 18:23 Beliskner wrote:On October 07 2015 14:10 WrathSCII wrote:On October 07 2015 13:48 purakushi wrote: buff damage, increase weapon cooldown time, add overkill, remove medivac pickup
BW tank all the way Literally everyone agree on this point except the one that came up with medivac pick up idea... I honestly don't understand the medivac pickup hate, I think it's a great idea. Everyone wants the siege tank to be what is was in Broodwar. It's just never going to happen, SC2 is a different game and plays completely different, the slow siege is dead. You now get into position do what you need to do and get the hell out. Feel free to use the word gimmicky, I honestly think it's lost all meaning. I don't like the medivac pickup because I think it makes tank vs tank battles ridiculous. The one who is in a sieged position suddenly is in a disadvantage. Everyone just flies his tanks around, if you siege without medivacs the opponent picks up and either hits your army from angles that are unprotected or just avoids the whole army. I think the general problem is that medivac pickups avoids the need to siege. Tanks are just sieged all the time and in my opinion it leads to bad unit interactions, outside of early 1-2 tank drops which are indeed very fun.
Pretty much this. TvT is pure chaos and BS at the moment. If you thought that Tanks had issue in Siege Mode transformation takes too long to re-position, just add late game upgrade that reduces the siege / unsiege time by 50%. Currently the tank is nothing but annoying mosquito that keeps stinging you while sleeping.
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On October 07 2015 20:31 Lexender wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2015 18:23 Beliskner wrote:On October 07 2015 14:10 WrathSCII wrote:On October 07 2015 13:48 purakushi wrote: buff damage, increase weapon cooldown time, add overkill, remove medivac pickup
BW tank all the way Literally everyone agree on this point except the one that came up with medivac pick up idea... I honestly don't understand the medivac pickup hate, I think it's a great idea. Everyone wants the siege tank to be what is was in Broodwar. It's just never going to happen, SC2 is a different game and plays completely different, the slow siege is dead. You now get into position do what you need to do and get the hell out. Feel free to use the word gimmicky, I honestly think it's lost all meaning. Imagine WoL PvP but with flying tanks instead of blink stalkers. Thats LotV TvT.
You should send your posts to Kespa teams. They will waste their time trying to figure out LotV but you already knows everything. You need to help them.
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small unit harass and smaller siege army positioning is not as strong as it feels in BW. it's less difficult to gather an appropriate sized army in time to deal with the harass before it's too late.
due to the pacing of the game, most of these harasses come when you've already added production facilities to your macro build and whether or not that's because of the threat of the harass or because it's simply how the game progresses, it's a fact about the gameplay.
so once again, small unit harass-as long as you're not daydreaming or playing super-greed-is not as effective as it is in BW mostly because of the unit interactions and how it has been made easier to gather up your units at opportune times. you are not typically going to attack with a small batch of marines and a tank, or with a couple zealots 2 minutes into the game. the units that you start with have limited usability on their own because of the stronger defenses each race has. (queens, mothership, stalker, adept, a simple wall-in with tighter and more responsive marines, and early units not being able to outrange a bunker or outdamage the smarter scvs with their repair... not to mention, bunkers are a small investment).
tl;dr attacking and not dealing equal amounts damage means that you are all-in since you'll be behind on key tech. it's easier to defend and to expect specific variants of harass. it's harder to take lasting damage from small unit harass because of the macro mechanics put in place.
I actually think it's game-losing if you rush a single siege tank drop off of 1-1-1 and do not get away with the damage as well as the tank and medivac.
I don't agree you need to change the tank. perhaps give them increased damage against structures since they've received HP buffs in lotv. you need to realize that most of the units you'll see spotting for a tank are all expensive (time and money). ranging from a medevac, a group of marines, other factory units, or a Viking. the tank doesn't see the same usage as it did in BW not because it's bad, it's because the overall ebb and flow of the game has entirely changed from being a different game.
I think your nostalgia may be taking over the fact that most of us are better rts players now than we were back then. players, not spectators watching pro-games. not to mention, BGH, lol.
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On October 07 2015 20:33 Scrubwave wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2015 13:26 FlyingSteaks wrote: Buff damage, remove the new medivac pickup The ways in which Blizzard is trying to bandaid the plain suckiness of tank's damage is hilarious. Uh, here, now you don't have to research siege mode! Or how bout this, now you can pick up sieged tanks with medivacs! Stop trying to be cute and bring back the not-so-cute SC1 tank.
As A LOT of other users said. BW Tank1 with smart targetting ? I have nightmares of this idea.
On October 07 2015 20:33 Scrubwave wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2015 13:26 FlyingSteaks wrote: Buff damage, remove the new medivac pickup The ways in which Blizzard is trying to bandaid the plain suckiness of tank's damage is hilarious. Uh, here, now you don't have to research siege mode! Or how bout this, now you can pick up sieged tanks with medivacs! Stop trying to be cute and bring back the not-so-cute SC1 tank.
The hate of Blizzard is strong... Blizzard just took a lot of ideas that in Starbow. Because you know... There was a time (during LotV developpement) where "everyone" was saying that Starbow was so much better than HotS.
Blizzard should just stop fan servicing. The community is a spoiled child that is never happy.
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On October 07 2015 20:56 Scrubwave wrote: Then remove smart targeting, but you gotta give some if you're gonna take some.
So you want some unit with Smart Targetting and other without ? That's gonna be easy to balance... It took like a minute for you to answer. I think ideas should be matured and thought before launching them in the air.
I know that's not always easy to do or true but... come on.
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On October 07 2015 20:29 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2015 18:23 Beliskner wrote:On October 07 2015 14:10 WrathSCII wrote:On October 07 2015 13:48 purakushi wrote: buff damage, increase weapon cooldown time, add overkill, remove medivac pickup
BW tank all the way Literally everyone agree on this point except the one that came up with medivac pick up idea... I honestly don't understand the medivac pickup hate, I think it's a great idea. Everyone wants the siege tank to be what is was in Broodwar. It's just never going to happen, SC2 is a different game and plays completely different, the slow siege is dead. You now get into position do what you need to do and get the hell out. Feel free to use the word gimmicky, I honestly think it's lost all meaning. I don't like the medivac pickup because I think it makes tank vs tank battles ridiculous. The one who is in a sieged position suddenly is in a disadvantage.
How? The person dropping last is at the disadvantage because of the fire delay right? Also doesn't this create an even more need for air superiority in TvT. It doesn't seem like Lexender's, PvP Blink stalker comparison is fair, simply because of this fact right? It's not like they can just waltz into your base if you have vikings.
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On October 07 2015 21:03 Beliskner wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2015 20:29 Big J wrote:On October 07 2015 18:23 Beliskner wrote:On October 07 2015 14:10 WrathSCII wrote:On October 07 2015 13:48 purakushi wrote: buff damage, increase weapon cooldown time, add overkill, remove medivac pickup
BW tank all the way Literally everyone agree on this point except the one that came up with medivac pick up idea... I honestly don't understand the medivac pickup hate, I think it's a great idea. Everyone wants the siege tank to be what is was in Broodwar. It's just never going to happen, SC2 is a different game and plays completely different, the slow siege is dead. You now get into position do what you need to do and get the hell out. Feel free to use the word gimmicky, I honestly think it's lost all meaning. I don't like the medivac pickup because I think it makes tank vs tank battles ridiculous. The one who is in a sieged position suddenly is in a disadvantage. How? The person dropping last is at the disadvantage because of the fire delay right? Also doesn't this create an even more need for air superiority in TvT. It doesn't seem like Lexender's, PvP Blink stalker comparison is fair, simply because of this fact right? It's not like they can just waltz into your base if you have vikings.
Yeah its an exageration, but its not wrong, the comparison has more to do with defender advantage though with siege drops the defenders advantage that existed (that was very low since medivac boost anyway) is lost because siege lines no longer have any real meaning.
The problem with siege tank dropping is not about who drops first, but about being sieged, you never want to be sieged because the one in the air can have a better positioning, they can choose the fight, terrain no longer has any real meaning and if HotS was a doom drop madness LotV is worst.
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