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No one see them in the beta In my opinon Swarm host have too much big issues: 1)Show me why would u prefer building late harass over things like lurkers/ravegers
2)Cost problem(Main issue)-invest 200-100 to harass unites is just too much.Ofc you can tell me oracle need 150-150 well yes but u need at least 5 swarm host to cause some damage and thats 1000-500(alot!)
3)Useless vs terran-Swarm host are actually need to be used the most on zvt where harass vs terran is really limited(muta not really visable any more)however terran got pf+turrets+MASS repair(make sh totally usless on zvt) and add to that the fact that bio play force zerg to non stop unites making due to drops def, so no money left for that
4)need nydus warms-A must have for really making good use of the unit.
*Vs toss its also not easy since the mothership core change which actully is a buff vs sh
The buffs the unit needs in my opinion:
1)(possible but not sure)-Allow burrow swarm host move without burrow upgrade needed(like old sh but they can also move underground)
2)(MUST HAVE)-cost reduced to 150/75 or locus count increaded to 3
3)(possible)-when locus attack structure its limites repair of 1 scv on building.What i mean is if 10 scv try to fix something but 5 locus attack it,only 5 scv can repair
4)(Very possible logic change)-Swarm host need lair only
What is your opinion of swarm host non play on the beta?
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It's a very powerful unit in "theoretical" endgame stalemate situations that don't occure right now because everybody dies before that. I would actually play around with them against a Meching Terran in lategame if the Viper wasn't such a broken 500% stronger alternative.
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Just remove this unit. Really bland and boring unit. Doesn't offer anything exciting and walks a thin line between being useless or overpowered.
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On October 08 2015 07:12 Big J wrote: It's a very powerful unit in "theoretical" endgame stalemate situations that don't occure right now because everybody dies before that. I would actually play around with them against a Meching Terran in lategame if the Viper wasn't such a broken 500% stronger alternative. There are jsut to supply intesive for lategame, may lower supply cost, lower couldown and less damage or so
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On October 08 2015 07:56 DERASTAT wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2015 07:12 Big J wrote: It's a very powerful unit in "theoretical" endgame stalemate situations that don't occure right now because everybody dies before that. I would actually play around with them against a Meching Terran in lategame if the Viper wasn't such a broken 500% stronger alternative. There are jsut to supply intesive for lategame, may lower supply cost, lower couldown and less damage or so They already lowered the supply cost back to 3 in LotV and the cost back to 200/100 and removed the need to upgrade the flying locusts, which saves quite some gas and time too. The unit isn't that expensive anymore, but they are pretty much useless at holding attacks, which is why you have to get everything else first.
It's this general idea of having a plain harassbased unit in the game that has never and will never work out in SC2. Only in the very early or very lategame you have the freedom to invest a large percentage of your income into "pure harassbased" units. Outside of that you use very cheap enablers (like prisms) or plainly your army units (like mutas or medivacs with bio or zerglings or adepts or hellions) to harass. What you never do is build mass oracles just to harass. Or mass banshees just to harass (though sometimes you build banshees for army purposes and then harass with them). In wings zerg would go infestors anyways, and then harass with them. If you go bio/mine you may end up dropping mines as it is an optional thing to do in that situation. But you wouldn't build banshees instead of mines to begin with. And this also goes for the swarm host. If you go roach/hydra, you may end up with some drop or burrow shennanigans. But you wouldn't build swarm hosts in place of the roaches you sacrifice on harass, as this costs extra tech and weakens the much more important option to just combat the opponent and you only do the roach harass if the opportunity arises. So at the end of the day the unit either works as massable army unit, or as lategame harass unit. Since noone wants to go back to the first option, I think we should just be happy not to see them too often.
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Personally, I say the problem with the Swarm Host starts with its 'design'. Its design causes balance and gameplay headaches. Meant to harass and break siege lines, but never put itself at risk. For example, the Siege tank and Lurker at least has to 'stay near the battle' in order to contribute their DPS, while the Swarm Host can just spawn their locust and head back to their base.
You would have to really outplay your opponent to catch a unprepare Swarm Host, and because of that, to make the Swarm Host fair, they can't be that great at doing their job easily or constantly. I rather not see Swarm Host being viable ever with their current design because I can't imagine a scenario in which playing against a bunch of Swarm Host would be fun.
Saying all of that, personally, I would rather see the Swarm Host be remad to fill a different role while the Locust gets added to the Zerg army as a regular unit. Zerg still retain a harass unit while the Swarm Host fills a different role.
It would be something like (Actual numbers can be adjusted for balance):
Locust (New unit - Morph from Zerglings - Require Lair Tech) - Design to be a harass unit that can fly and swoop to bypass terrain and walls - Can attack ground when on the ground, and attack air while flying - Deals Melee damage (range attack removed, and benefits from melee attack upgrade) - Cost somewhat expensive for a 0.5 supply unit to prevent massing of Locusts - Be a lot faster, maybe at zergling speed before speed upgrade
Swarm Host (New unit - Morph from Zerglings - Require Lair Tech) - Redesign to be a mobile hatchary. - While burrow, can spawn zerg units (still have to pay for units) and generate creep. - Cost and supply would go down (maybe like 2 supply and only cost 200 minerals) - Maybe be built from the hatchary like the queen
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I have been using the Swarm host every time Terran goes mech in beta with great success as I transition into T3, the game is young my friends
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On October 08 2015 08:14 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2015 07:56 DERASTAT wrote:On October 08 2015 07:12 Big J wrote: It's a very powerful unit in "theoretical" endgame stalemate situations that don't occure right now because everybody dies before that. I would actually play around with them against a Meching Terran in lategame if the Viper wasn't such a broken 500% stronger alternative. There are jsut to supply intesive for lategame, may lower supply cost, lower couldown and less damage or so They already lowered the supply cost back to 3 in LotV and the cost back to 200/100 and removed the need to upgrade the flying locusts, which saves quite some gas and time too. The unit isn't that expensive anymore, but they are pretty much useless at holding attacks, which is why you have to get everything else first. It's this general idea of having a plain harassbased unit in the game that has never and will never work out in SC2. Only in the very early or very lategame you have the freedom to invest a large percentage of your income into "pure harassbased" units. Outside of that you use very cheap enablers (like prisms) or plainly your army units (like mutas or medivacs with bio or zerglings or adepts or hellions) to harass. What you never do is build mass oracles just to harass. Or mass banshees just to harass (though sometimes you build banshees for army purposes and then harass with them). In wings zerg would go infestors anyways, and then harass with them. If you go bio/mine you may end up dropping mines as it is an optional thing to do in that situation. But you wouldn't build banshees instead of mines to begin with.And this also goes for the swarm host. If you go roach/hydra, you may end up with some drop or burrow shennanigans. But you wouldn't build swarm hosts in place of the roaches you sacrifice on harass, as this costs extra tech and weakens the much more important option to just combat the opponent and you only do the roach harass if the opportunity arises. So at the end of the day the unit either works as massable army unit, or as lategame harass unit. Since noone wants to go back to the first option, I think we should just be happy not to see them too often.
Good points.I think that even if swarm host would be "pure harass" unites that doesnt mean its a bad disgn but unlike other harass unites,this one need to be massable to be used as harass unit where i seen lots of game how just 1 oracle is used all the game to harass,1 swam host cant do it.It may sound crazy a bit but i was thinking to my self,what if swarm host was a "hero unit" like the mothership core thats comes out of the lair.That way it can give something which they never has-access to safe early harass unit that punish greddy players while making sure it can help in combat a bit if needed but cant be massable. maybe its the best thing to do?
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Lurker was what it dreamed and aspired to be, now a rather useless, hard to balance unit
just remove it and be done with it.
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Good points.I think that even if swarm host would be "pure harass" unites that doesnt mean its a bad disgn but unlike other harass unites,this one need to be massable to be used as harass unit where i seen lots of game how just 1 oracle is used all the game to harass,1 swam host cant do it.It may sound crazy a bit but i was thinking to my self,what if swarm host was a "hero unit" like the mothership core thats comes out of the lair.That way it can give something which they never has-access to safe early harass unit that punish greddy players while making sure it can help in combat a bit if needed but cant be massable. maybe its the best thing to do?
This idea is so crazy that it might just work.
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On October 08 2015 15:03 agsub wrote:Show nested quote + Good points.I think that even if swarm host would be "pure harass" unites that doesnt mean its a bad disgn but unlike other harass unites,this one need to be massable to be used as harass unit where i seen lots of game how just 1 oracle is used all the game to harass,1 swam host cant do it.It may sound crazy a bit but i was thinking to my self,what if swarm host was a "hero unit" like the mothership core thats comes out of the lair.That way it can give something which they never has-access to safe early harass unit that punish greddy players while making sure it can help in combat a bit if needed but cant be massable. maybe its the best thing to do?
This idea is so crazy that it might just work.
Yea something like: 200/200/4- spwan 3 locus with 100 life each which fly and have same damage as now,also swarm host can burrow move.Only 2 swarm host may be built
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I am pretty sure that Swarm Host is in a solid spot and that people just aren't playing enough with them. CatZ was talking about certain pushes with Swarm Hosts to deny Protoss' 3rd/4th base, with ~10 Swarm Hosts and mass Lings. I don't know how long ago that was, not sure if anything changed in that regard.
The game is in the beta, a lot of Koreans aren't even playing yet, and we still have to see what can Rogue and Snute do with them. I will just say that most of the people were saying how Swarm Host is a bad unit back in the HotS beta as well, and since then it was NERFED 2 times(both times in the beta), and it still ended up being one of the strongest units in the game(depending on the perspective) after it left beta state, to the point of its rework. Give it a little time.
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On October 08 2015 17:56 Ramiz1989 wrote:I am pretty sure that Swarm Host is in a solid spot and that people just aren't playing enough with them. CatZ was talking about certain pushes with Swarm Hosts to deny Protoss' 3rd/4th base, with ~10 Swarm Hosts and mass Lings. I don't know how long ago that was, not sure if anything changed in that regard. The game is in the beta, a lot of Koreans aren't even playing yet, and we still have to see what can Rogue and Snute do with them. I will just say that most of the people were saying how Swarm Host is a bad unit back in the HotS beta as well, and since then it was NERFED 2 times(both times in the beta), and it still ended up being one of the strongest units in the game(depending on the perspective) after it left beta state, to the point of its rework. Give it a little time.
Yeah. I got the feeling that the current iteration of the unit will cause some serious problems.
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I would prefer if the Swarm Host has energy and the Locusts cost energy, like the Infested Terrans. This way you can choose to drop all of the locusts at once (like infeste terrans) but the locusts are much less mobile (like infested terrans) and Swarm Hosts get burrow movement (like infestors... with infested terrans).
Or, maybe just give Swarm Hosts the Infested Terrans ability from the Infestor and give the infestor an ability that fits the unit better.
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On October 08 2015 08:14 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2015 07:56 DERASTAT wrote:On October 08 2015 07:12 Big J wrote: It's a very powerful unit in "theoretical" endgame stalemate situations that don't occure right now because everybody dies before that. I would actually play around with them against a Meching Terran in lategame if the Viper wasn't such a broken 500% stronger alternative. There are jsut to supply intesive for lategame, may lower supply cost, lower couldown and less damage or so They already lowered the supply cost back to 3 in LotV and the cost back to 200/100 and removed the need to upgrade the flying locusts, which saves quite some gas and time too. The unit isn't that expensive anymore, but they are pretty much useless at holding attacks, which is why you have to get everything else first. It's this general idea of having a plain harassbased unit in the game that has never and will never work out in SC2. Only in the very early or very lategame you have the freedom to invest a large percentage of your income into "pure harassbased" units. Outside of that you use very cheap enablers (like prisms) or plainly your army units (like mutas or medivacs with bio or zerglings or adepts or hellions) to harass. What you never do is build mass oracles just to harass. Or mass banshees just to harass (though sometimes you build banshees for army purposes and then harass with them). In wings zerg would go infestors anyways, and then harass with them. If you go bio/mine you may end up dropping mines as it is an optional thing to do in that situation. But you wouldn't build banshees instead of mines to begin with.And this also goes for the swarm host. If you go roach/hydra, you may end up with some drop or burrow shennanigans. But you wouldn't build swarm hosts in place of the roaches you sacrifice on harass, as this costs extra tech and weakens the much more important option to just combat the opponent and you only do the roach harass if the opportunity arises. So at the end of the day the unit either works as massable army unit, or as lategame harass unit. Since noone wants to go back to the first option, I think we should just be happy not to see them too often. Very good points, but with the right maps and meta they will see some usage eventually I think. Not too bad to have a niche filling unit.
Someday in the last stages of polishing they might think about making the unit a little more versatile. I don't know, give it options to spawn other units, like less effective terrors on low range or other support stuff.
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On October 08 2015 09:34 GGzerG wrote: I have been using the Swarm host every time Terran goes mech in beta with great success as I transition into T3, the game is young my friends
No no. The TL users have LotV already figured out.
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On October 08 2015 07:12 Big J wrote: It's a very powerful unit in "theoretical" endgame stalemate situations that don't occure right now because everybody dies before that. I would actually play around with them against a Meching Terran in lategame if the Viper wasn't such a broken 500% stronger alternative.
In stalemates they would be one of the best units. You don't have to deal with air dominance or much. You can burrow and unburrow them to hide them. Best on very large maps.
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Dead unit, LOTV fast pace kills a unit that atacks once 60 sec l.
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I had a little success using them on orbital in ZvZ. You can set up strong positionss. If you have some lurkers it offsets the weaker army but gives you a nice defensive advantage. Set up in the right spot and begin using locusts, the enemy can become split between bases. Like let's say you dump a few locusts into their back natural, over the cliffs into their 3rd, or if they take a 5th in the forward location you can gain a strong positional advantage there. Also you can go into the main if you want to try. So it's a very defensive game with lurkers and this defensive advantage offsets the sacrifice of building some swarm hosts. As you are assaulting their hatches and moving their army around it does very well, often you'll just kill these hatches or gain a significant positional advanatage. But I have played that a couple times, it worked but it's too early to tell how strong something like that may be considering how refined timings might get and counter attacks the enemy could do against such a forward position, etc..
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PiG is using few of them(4-5) as harassment tool, just like Rogue did against herO but without Nydus. Considering that their cost is lowered to 200/100/3 and that they don't need any upgrade anymore means that you don't need to commit to them at all to be able to harass bases. You need Infestation Pit for Hive anyway, if you have your economy going you might as well make few of them.
I still think that there will be some timings figured out that let you punish greedy Protoss players with Lings and Swarm Hosts.
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