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Hi @ all,
I Play Mech only since WoL (i also played a lot of broodwar). First of all i have to say in Wol and in Hots mech is hard to play but ist possible to win on everey level against everey race and it is a viable style of play (even on pro level look at Goody and HTO Mario and so on)! Im 34 years old and i love to play mech because my APM is not high enough for bio and it is a lot of fun to play it and if you are good to play against it if you know what you are doing (im in Diamond in hots and wol by the way).
In Legacy of the Void Mech has some problems which are old problems from Hots and new Problems from the state of design in Lotv.
The Old Problems: - Design of the siege tank in SC 2
- Design of the Thor
- Lack of good anti air
Design of the siege tank in Sc 2: Blizzard pls we always told you that we want our old siegetank from Broodwar back. Pls tell us why you dont change it with Lotv. It was fun to watch how terran played with the strong siege tanks in BW. And dont tell us mech is boring to whatch. Its not. In BW it was fun to watch. There are enough counters for siege tanks. Everey Zerg or everey Protoss who A-Moves his whole army in the terran mech army is stupid and deserves to loose. The Thing is we told you we want positional play!. So why dont you give us the possibility to do it with stronger siege tanks. At the Moment ist nearly impossible to play mech against a good Protoss (in hots it was hard but doable). If you buff the tank, terran would have the chance to play a more BW style against protoss which is totally fine and all the people want to see (we saw bio so often and it gets boring believe me). Blizzard we need a stronger siege tank like in BW for strong mech play.
Design of the Thor: Blizzard we told you so often that the thor is not fun to play. You cant micro it and he is so clunky. I can live with it that not everey unit is good for micro. But that the Thor is so clunky is so annoying. Thors are good against Mutas and Ultras and for soacking damge. I hate to see this style of mech because it was so much more fun to see the Goliath. You did a very good Job wit the hellion and hellbats. Pls Change the Thor. Change his pathing and remove his anti air ist terrible or make it energy based.
Lack of anti air: If you play against protoss air in lotv there is no way you win with ground forces. In broodwar you could counter toss air with Goliaths. The cyclone is awful against air. We have no way to counter toss air. I can live with broodlords by the way because its ok to build vikings against it but they dont help gainst toss air... Also liberators dont realy help against carriers. We need a strong ground to air unit.
These were all old Problems which still need to be solved in Lotv. This brings me to the new Problem which is only one thing and that is the design of the cyclone. First of all let me tell you that im totally fine with the liberator and it does not overlap with the siege tank, its a nice addition to mech for support and a tool for harrasment. Every player who says that the liberator overlaps with the role of the siege tank doesnt know how mech works (also the new tank drops are absolutly cool and good for the gameplay).....
This brings me to the cyclone. Ist not fun to play. It has bad anti air. This is not the micro we want. We told you we want the Goliath back. You did a fantastic job with the new zerg Units in lotv. A good job with the liberator and the Adept. Blizzard pls hear us and give us the Goliath back (also this has nothing to do with the viking it doesnt overlap) and make mech viable again. Many many Players love this style of play and like to watch it. Pls listen to us.
Protoss players told you give us back the reaver and remove the distrupter. Terran Players told you give us back the Goliath and remove the cyclone. Pls just do it.
We have no Problem to get some BW Units back its good for the game!!!!!!
P.S. I thank Blizzard for the good game design in Lotv but it needs to be improved. The new economy changes are awsome and are the best economy ever in starcraft :-) its really great and fun to play!
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I am really struggling against broodlord compositions vs zerg due to vipers and corruptors making mince of my air, and yea, cyclone used to do alright job, if cost inefficiently against broodlords, but now they just seem to melt and get stuck behind broodlings without doing any damage. Broodlord range buff was really big imo, on being able to close down with cyclones and how far you could stray out without getting hit by parasitic bomb with vikings
Cyclones don't seem to help much against protoss air though. Carriers just snowball in numbers fast and there isn't much timing to do damage, especially if protoss opened with pressure that they expand behind and you really don't have much of response until timing or widow mine drops.
I think they just just nerf air units across all races tbh. I dont see how ground forces can win against broodlords or carriers and such. You need air to air presence against these. The supply/cost for cyclones factory heavily as well as they are high value targets that could be sniped easily with viper/battlecruisers. You can't really contest on ground against the 3 capital ships with cyclone at all.
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@JinJin5000
Exactly thats why i suggest to bring back the Goliath and you are absolutly right that the air Units must be nerved for everey race.
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Goliath of the campaign and BroodLords nerf range to 9.5 and increase speed to 1.88 is the best thing to test.
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I think the problem is not that the tank is to weak but that the other races got just so extreme hardcounters to it like vipers or immortals, now ravager and disruptor. In tvt tanks are extremely strong. Instead of buffing the tank they should just tone down the hardcounters, immortals already got nerfed but blinding cloud is just way to good against tanks and has to be nerfed/removed if tank based playstyles should ever be viable in tvz.
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On October 09 2015 22:58 Charoisaur wrote: I think the problem is not that the tank is to weak but that the other races got just so extreme hardcounters to it like vipers or immortals, now ravager and disruptor. In tvt tanks are extremely strong. Instead of buffing the tank they should just tone down the hardcounters, immortals already got nerfed but blinding cloud is just way to good against tanks and has to be nerfed/removed if tank based playstyles should ever be viable in tvz.
This is an interesting take. Any concern that this would have cascading effects into other areas of play?
I remember the old school WoL-style tank play in TvZ. The slow tank crawl, the gigantic pre-spread stim run away. It was insane! Now, instead of tanks, it's Widow Mines, and they're either amazing, duds, or kill your whole fucking army with friendly fire and you lose the game right there. There really is very little reason to build tanks in TvZ, atm, because the Starport is much better at dealing with Roaches (the Ravager removes early tanks as viable defense).
Tanks in TvT feel fine, and having tanks being any stronger in TvT would probably completely shut down bio play. Defensive tanks are already insanely good versus Bio.
Tanks feel utterly worthless in TvP. Dude. You know it's bad when you're more likely to build a--hold on, gotta look up the name. Oh, here it is--the "Cyclone" instead of a tank. I know there is a super early game rush play with tanks, where you can abuse a Toss who doesn't build units and relies solely on PO, because the tanks finally out-range it, but unless you destroy the Nexus you're hopelessly far behind and auto-lose to the incoming warpgate 1a.
I don't know what the answer is for the tank. I've thought it would be nice to see the tank be more tanky in tank mode, and less of a glass cannon (unless it's in siege mode). Maybe they could fill the upgrade slot with "Anti-Protoss Rounds". Upgrade description: causes damage to Protoss units.
Lulz.
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I posted this in many other threads but I will posted it again.
Goliaths don't work with SC2 pathing, they have a very big range and deal a lot of damage, they would be a too easily massable unit, like the warhound but with weaker AG.
I say it now, if they add goliaths to the game I think we would se more MMG than mech with goliaths, just like it happened like with the warhound.
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I think the problem with mech lies deeper than inferior siege tanks and poor anti air factory units in lotv. The entire economy change was what really did mech in. Either way I think we should stop beating a dead horse at this point. Mech will never be where we want it to be. It will always be turtlely without vultures and siege tanks cannot be buffed or they'll be stupidly broken without overkill. I doubt blizzard will ever commit to making deep changes to make mech function similiar as it did like mech vs protoss in broodwar. Nor will they scrap awful units like the thor because its too established in sc2 at this point. They haven't even reverted the awful snipe nerf when all it would take is a reduction in damage it does to massive units.
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The siege tank does not need to be buffed. As much as I would like it to be, it wont happen because of the liberator. It's defender mode replaces tanks much like mines did, and there is almost no reason to build them. Removing or severely nerfing the liberator AtG could warrant a buff to the tank, but so many people like the liberator (which blows my mind) that this probably won't happen.
Terran AA - Marines, mines, turrets, cyclones, thors, liberators, and vikings... Blizzard have just never balanced what they have before adding new units into the game. In both hots and lotv a unit was added to help deal with mutas. I propose removing the liberator ( LOL my hatred for the unit is beyond measurable), and terrans remaining units can be properly balanced to deal with anything in the air.
Blizzard could easily buff the thors 2nd mode of attack that I don't think anyone uses, giving it anti armored single target attack. While the thor would become much stronger vs all air units, I think this would be ok given the thors huge size, slow speed, and 300/200 cost. If it did become a problem obviously the damage can be toned down or the time it takes to switch between firing modes can be greatly increased.
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I think we see these threads every 2 months. Have anyone thought of the fact that Terran mech doesn't NEED to be viable? We don't see Protoss complaining they can't Skytoss every game against everything
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On October 10 2015 00:46 Ouija wrote: The siege tank does not need to be buffed. As much as I would like it to be, it wont happen because of the liberator. It's defender mode replaces tanks much like mines did, and there is almost no reason to build them. Removing or severely nerfing the liberator AtG could warrant a buff to the tank, but so many people like the liberator (which blows my mind) that this probably won't happen.
I wish we could stop making this comparison.
A single-target DPS unit with a tiny target area that it can attack into cannot be compared to--fairly--an AOE unit with a gigantic radial attack rabge. It's not a tank. It doesn't replace the tank.
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On October 10 2015 02:00 parkufarku wrote: I think we see these threads every 2 months. Have anyone thought of the fact that Terran mech doesn't NEED to be viable? We don't see Protoss complaining they can't Skytoss every game against everything Different ground playstyles should always be viable. Seeing only Bio with some support is boring. Mech offers drastically different playstyle from Bio if designed correctly. Unfortunately, unless sieged Tanks stop flying, and Tank becomes the powerful, slow/immobile glasscannon needing a support of units like good anti-air but bad anti-ground, cheap but high hp units to "tank" frontline damage etc., and until the "half mineral patches" of LotV are in the game, the Mech that everyone wants will not exist. A transformer looking ("mech") units that are fast and mobile like Bio compositions are not Mech.
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On October 10 2015 02:00 parkufarku wrote: I think we see these threads every 2 months. Have anyone thought of the fact that Terran mech doesn't NEED to be viable? We don't see Protoss complaining they can't Skytoss every game against everything
Sure, mech doesn't need to be viable. But mech is much different than bio, and you lose a large portion of terran players by limiting 1 of those playstyles in certain matchups. Terran really isn't one race: its a combination of mech and bio, which play extremely differently. And one reason people don't complain about skytoss is because its already super strong and pretty viable in all matchups. Also, mech has been around as a viable strategy for longer and is harder to execute, where is airtoss is much easier to execute (especially compared to the counter-play needed). Mech plays much differently than all other playstyles because of how each unit is so unique in the role they must fufill and how you use each unit. To lose mech would be a tragedy, despite the amount of hate it usually gets. Which is why people propose to remove overkill: so that way tanks are much harder to use, which makes mech overall much harder to use. (this combined with tank buffs so people have a reason to make tanks, which would then be harder to use).
I used to be against the goliath, but I wouldn't mind it comming back. Sure we have the cyclone that can be reworked to be a goliath 2.0, but it doesn't feel very mech-y. It should fulfill a anti-single target air role, where the thor provides solid single-target ground damage + AOE AA. The idea is that, mech units fulfill one role extremely well, but all others very poorly. This means that a decent number of cyclones and thors should be able to trade very well against a ton of air units, but terribly against ground units such as the roach or zergling. The hellbat is an amazing tank and mineral dump (making it great for runbys, since mech doesn't need very many minerals), but terrible at dishing out damage. Other armies just focus on having each unit do a lot of damage.
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On October 10 2015 03:00 TimeSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2015 00:46 Ouija wrote: The siege tank does not need to be buffed. As much as I would like it to be, it wont happen because of the liberator. It's defender mode replaces tanks much like mines did, and there is almost no reason to build them. Removing or severely nerfing the liberator AtG could warrant a buff to the tank, but so many people like the liberator (which blows my mind) that this probably won't happen. I wish we could stop making this comparison. A single-target DPS unit with a tiny target area that it can attack into cannot be compared to--fairly--an AOE unit with a gigantic radial attack rabge. It's not a tank. It doesn't replace the tank.
The liberators defender mode fills the same roll that a siege tank does. Who cares about AOE when you 2 shot most units. A stalker will take 5 shots from a tank in siege mode, and as I pointed out 2 from the liberator. On top of that, the liberator shoots in defender mode twice as fast as a tank in seige mode.
I understand they are two different units, but the liberator just overlaps with units terran already has. There aren't many situations where a terran will be preferring a tank over a liberator. The unit just performs better in almost every situation, mainly because they don't suffer from the same weaknesses of the tank.
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On October 10 2015 02:00 parkufarku wrote: I think we see these threads every 2 months. Have anyone thought of the fact that Terran mech doesn't NEED to be viable? We don't see Protoss complaining they can't Skytoss every game against everything
If there is something that needs to be not viable it is bio not mech. Seriously every race has the option to get better units the longer the game goes except for Terrans, the more they tech, the more their units suck. It starts with marines and end with marines. Every single match up. Whether it is a TvT or TvP or TvZ.
Mech represents the late game of Terran and that is how it should be. If it is not viable then it is a problem. But if bio is not viable then there should be a route to directly go to mech. If it is impossible then bio needs to be fixed to be viable early on and then slow transition to mech.
But playing every single match up on every single phase with pure bio is retarded and as a Terran player I cannot accept this crap.
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I wonder why they separated upgrades again. Like adding parasitic bomb was not enough. And 11.5 range bls ofc. In TvP that style never was and never will be viable anyways. We should just accept that DK hates tanks with passion.
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Couldnt we just scratch the factory out of the tech tree? None of the units it produces are fun or fun to play against.
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On October 11 2015 07:49 404AlphaSquad wrote: Couldnt we just scratch the factory out of the tech tree? None of the units it produces are fun or fun to play against.
Hahahaha what?
Can we scratch out all the units I think are unfun to play against, too? Protoss has a couple of those.
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On October 10 2015 02:00 parkufarku wrote: I think we see these threads every 2 months. Have anyone thought of the fact that Terran mech doesn't NEED to be viable? We don't see Protoss complaining they can't Skytoss every game against everything
Quotes like this make me wonder if the person even understands the posts made by others or even makes an effort to understand someone else's reasoning or stance. The problem is that any matchup that is NOT TvT, the tank is useless.
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On October 11 2015 10:19 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2015 07:49 404AlphaSquad wrote: Couldnt we just scratch the factory out of the tech tree? None of the units it produces are fun or fun to play against. Hahahaha what? Can we scratch out all the units I think are unfun to play against, too? Protoss has a couple of those. Sure, I would rather have a game with interesting unit interactions.
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