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(I already made this post on B-net, but TL is always my go-to forum for SC)
A bit about me: I've been playing since the WoL Beta, have a lot of experience with the game even though I'm only mediocre (mostly been Plat / Gold). This post, however, has nothing to do with balance.
I'd like to talk about co-op. I think it's the single best addition Blizzard has made to the game this expansion, and has given players like me who enjoy playing with people a fantastic option for doing so.
On Team Liquid at least, a lot of players are calling for Brutal to be "more difficult." While I do think Brutal can be pretty easy depending on who you're playing with, I don't echo this sentiment *exactly.* What I'd like to see is an additional difficulty that unlocks after level 15; this would serve the dual purpose of incentivizing players to stick with commanders after level 15 while providing the community with a more difficult game mode. Unlocking it after would also mean that this new difficulty could be balanced around max level commanders and all their unlocks.
As is, there isn't much reason why a player would continue playing the same commander after level 15, aside from achievements and the portraits which are moreso time-consuming than difficult to acquire. I think adding 5 more levels to each commander would alleviate this problem of player retention. Furthermore, I would suggest more vanity rewards tied to co-op, something to play for. I find co-op to be a lot of fun, but a lot of players are dissatisfied with the lack of rewards. A leaderboard would solve this problem, and would give the post-game "stats page" some meaning.
For instance, I play Swann. A leaderboard (or one for each difficulty) could track damage done by the laser, for instance (this is already tracked by the stats page). I would have incentive to try and maximize my laser damage in order to place on this leaderboard. A leaderboard that's tied to each commander's "gimmick" would give hardcore players something to work for; if you synced this leaderboard with ladder seasons, you could tie rewards for the top 5 players: a special portrait, trophy, skin, or something like that.
So, to summarize:
-Add five more levels to each commander -Add additional difficulty level that unlocks after level 15 -Add difficulty-tied leaderboards that track commanders' individual gimmicks (Swann's laser damage, for instance) that reward the top 3 after a co-op "season"
These additions would address the community's need for a new difficulty, player retention, and add a semi-competitive, reward-based thing to play for (which in turn would further help retention after max level).
Something that also needs to happen--and no doubt *will* happen--are more missions. That being said, I would love to see 3 or 4 player maps in addition to 2 player maps. Certain LoTV missions in particular would be perfect frameworks (such as the epilogue missions) for 3 or 4 player maps.
Some missions ideas:
-A copy-paste of the "Outbreak" map for WoL; this is the day- night zombie map, with the hellions and infestors. -A "retaking Aiur" map where you're forced to move out and secure locations. -A "bodyguard map" where you're guiding a mega-weapon around the map and keeping it safe; like Tychus in the Engine of Destruction (?) mission from WoL. -There was a map from WoL where you're on the Tal'Darim worldship and have to rely on air units to take out damaging energy fields. -More timed missions; so far, the Xel'naga temple map is the only timed mission. I would love a variation of the LoTV map where you're repairing the orbital station before it falls on Korhal. -A map where you have to move out and rescue groups of units who are dropping onto the planet. This was one of the Char missions from WoL--I think Gates of Hell?
Something that should absolutely happen are short co-op campaigns that follow a narrative; Starcraft has limitless potential for stories, and--I think--a lot of novels and fiction to draw from. Furthermore: Browder works for you, and Browder did this with Red Alert, and Red Alert was hella fun.
The stories don't need to be complicated. There's a general story, characters show up, speak individualized dialogues, and players proceed to play the game. Maybe each player's commander is featured as the "main character" of the co-op campaign. So, if I were playing Swann, I would hear dialogue that infers Swann is the "main actor," though my partner playing Raynor would hear dialogue that suggests Raynor is the "main actor." The inclusion of a leaderboard for individual co-op campaigns--how fast they're completed, for instance--would incentivize players to form teams and come up with the best strategies to beat the game. There you go: competitive organized co-op.
Since single player DLC is already in the works, it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to create co-op campaign DLC. I know I'd pay 5 dollars for a 7 mission co-op campaign that's tied to a leaderboard, especially if it's well-designed. A leaderboard for speedruns, come to think of it, would *make* players play after max level in order to get the absolute best time possible, which helps the retention problem.
That's about all I got. Thank you for reading.
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These are some nice ideas for co-op mission.
I do think co-op campaign missions is something that might be a DLC feature... but I don't think it will be, since I think the co-op experience will probably remain 100% free. Also I wonder how they could tie the story in, using co-op missions, as the "main" story has finished via the single player campaign.
In terms of ladder, I feel that using "gimmick" stats is probably not the way to go, in terms of ranking who's the best co-op player... although that would be interesting to see who did the most damage with the laser.
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I'm curious if the idea of "infinite" difficulty would work in co-op... basically replicating the Diablo 3 greater rift mechanic. I'm wondering if this could work.
For example, for each "level" added, enemy HP could gain +5% hp per difficulty increase beyond their highest level difficulty. We can call this like "Brutal +3" or something...
Not sure if this would work well... but worth a shot throwing this idea.
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I like these ideas.
Personally I think that Co-op missions aren't (A. content rich enough and (B. lacking in balance.
(A. I personally ain't going to bash on this hard, at least not yet. While the content we have so far is pretty lack luster. 7 Missions, many of which are boring to play after the first few times. No real story, or for that matter explanation, for the missions other than the introductions. Which can be fix like you suggested by the main character story system, since most of blizzard's SC2 Action is going to go to balance in ladder and to the Nova DLC. An endless/infinite mode would be pretty interesting especially with hero combinations. Also could include objectives to were you have to move out so certain heroes can Shine/have weakness. This would prob. make me want to play endless mode instead of missions.
Or maybe a spin off of the WOL mission SuperNova?
(B. Ah Balance, the fore front of half of the Lotv discussions and posts. I'm going to make this short mainly because i'm tried of hearing about balance. I feel that certain heroes (*cough* Vorazun) are used more than other weaker characters like Swann (even in co-op mech truly can't be a thing :C). Sure these weaker characters still have a place and are way more fun to use (laser). But they need the support of either a good teammate or good hero combination. I shouldn't have 50% of my games be played with a hero simply because they are better and OP.
If i could add something to this train of thought it would be this: Give us Custom, Community made missions. We already do it for maps why not for Co-op missions? Would help solve lack of map pool as well.
All in All, Co-op is a ok mode that has the ability to become something huge. Give it a year's time and it would be a Awesome mode (unless blizzard decides not to do anything).
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The leaderboard is a great system, I can see a lot of hardcore players going for top scores. As for rewards, I am not sure if blizzard will be willing to do rewards per season, in that case it might just not get new updates rewards for a long time.
Maybe a small thank you note that can be displayed in co-op games like the tournament mode?
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These are some great ideas. I especially like the leaderboard. I also think more variety for each commander would be nice. Like you should be able to choose between two different units or abilities like you can in the campaign instead of just unlocking stuff.
Additionally, I'd like to see 20 or so missions. There are far too few mission right now. New missions should have to be unlocked and be of increasing difficulty and there should be some that have you working with more than two players. Like a huge 8 player Co-op mission would be cool, one similiar to the mission where Kerrigan works with Dhaka to kill the shield generator thing in HOTS (half the players are doing one things while the others do something else).
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I'll just echo what everyone else has said in that I REALLY enjoy this mode, and I'd like to see them expand it, particularly with many more maps and at least one more round of heroes plus their corresponding unique unit compositions. there's a shit ton of units for each race that aren't being used, so it's totally doable if they feel like doing it. I dunno about having maps with a ton more teammates simply because it would completely destroy my computer, but I would like there to be some bigger maps with more expansions that last longer and/or have less pressing, time-sensitive objectives. As fun as the campaigns were, the one 'mission type' that was sorely missing from SC2 that was highly prevalent in SC1 was the 'macro and slowly clear a ton of enemy bases off of a massive map' mission type and i'd like to see one or two of those appear in this mode eventually.
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I've been playing this mode over multiplayer.
Please add more map!!
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Additional maps are indeed the required priority. For me I'd like to see the following maps added:
WoL maps: - In utter Darkness (the final zeratul vision mission where you need to fight till the last unit and kill at least xx zerg) - Outbreak (the day/night map where you need to clear out the map at night) - Supernova (the map that slowly burns away) - Engine of destruction (follow the Odin and keep it alive) - All In (last WoL mission)
HoTs maps: - Fire in the SKy (gorgon BC's) - Phantoms of the void (the kerrigan - Narud battle, where you need to destroy temples before the narud laser kills kerrigan) - The reckoning (last mission of HoTs - destroy Mengsk palace, they could put a timer on it for co-op)
LotV maps: - Basically all the epilogue maps would be fun for 2+ players
Additionally, it would also be nice if they added maps where you control only the character, such as the lava tunnels in WoL or the Kerrigan versus the 4 primal zergs. All characters already exists within the campaign so it is doable. They could even add Tychus, Nova for Terran, Alarak, Fenix for Toss and Stukov, Dehakka for zerg.
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I find coop kind of fun, but there is room for improvement:
It is currently possible to beat highest difficulty at very low level, it would be more interesting to have higher scaling of difficulty / rewards.
There is a complete lack of storyline in those missions.
Instead of mindlessly boring achievements with just cosmetic reward maybe they could open some additional customization of your army/hero.
Player lobby is missing, it is quite annoying to be paired with lvl1 or 2 player in brutal and just having to restart. (Which is a shame because sometimes low level players are very skilled at the game, but since there is no lobby, there is no way to check that beforehand. Most of the times it's just a waste of time). It is also not convenient at all to be able to talk with your partner after the game.
A very good example of RTSish game with coop was battleforge in my opinion.
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Russian Federation50 Posts
More timed missions; so far, the Xel'naga temple map is the only timed mission. I would love a variation of the LoTV map where you're repairing the orbital station before it falls on Korhal. How is that substantially different from the void shards mission? The problem with additional maps is that the current set covers almost all the suitable archetypes. The new maps they could add are mostly variations of the existing ones. I guess some variety would be nice though, even if its just a re-textured version with different objective names. Most new concepts suggested would be hard to imagine if they choose to stick with having players sit on the same two bases for the whole game. The best/most viable two ideas seem to be escort (Odin/Unsealing the Past) and tug-of-war (Kerrigan vs Narud, Rak'Shir).
I'd imagine it would be hard to make a leaderboard that isn't all about gimmicks. Even WoW DPS rankings towards the end of a content patch were all about who can stack more buffs on a single player, even if it is not the most optimal way to defeat a boss (cough dark intent on rogues cough). If you add a leaderboard for something like laser damage done, you'd be basically incentivized to (1) prolong the game as much as possible, and (2) avoid killing enemies with other units, kiting/tanking them instead. If they were to add leaderboards, I'd rather have it be something *directly* related to completing the map. I.e. how long can you hold for, or how quickly can you complete the objective.
Anyhow, I haven't been playing for very long, but I find that there is a huge disparity in the difficulty based on the race of the AI opponent. I find zerg to be by far the easiest, with Terran being the hardest. It feels that zerg doesn't bring any gimmicks besides having a large swarm of zerglings to be dealt with. Whereas Terrans attack with cloaked banshees (which can be annoying considering some races have pretty meh detection), have Ravens which require at least some degree of micro to combat, and even backdoor you with nukes. Also, the holdout map seems to be far more difficult than the rest, though maybe its because I haven't got it in a while and had bad games on it.
Btw, are there any statistics on which commanders are more popular? I seem to be mostly being matched with Artanis, and some Raynors. I've seen like one Swann, and zero zerg (I'm playing Vorazun and I have no idea how often she's used).
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On December 01 2015 19:39 Highways wrote: I've been playing this mode over multiplayer.
Please add more map!!
Agreed. I have 0 interest in buying LotV to ladder but if there's anything that could make me get it, it's coop content like more maps and stuff like the OP said. I LOVED the coop stuff back in Red Alert 2, and would love to see more coop stuff here.
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You have awesome ideas jeeeohn, i totally agree with everything you said ! Swann is so strong and Raynor is a bit weak, Artanis is the best support and Matriach is OP. Kerrigan could be fun and Zagara is quite boring, just mass and swarm
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i think the way they did coop was super cool, and if i was trying to bring someone into SC2 i would definitely use coop first over archon mode because it offers some kind of reward even if a new player isn't getting much else out of it
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Honestly the question always comes down to whether Blizzard will allow community input into co-op mission development.
If they do, then fantastics we'll have another endless source of entertainment from SC2.
If not, it'll die out slowly but surely. Something new players discover, veterans rediscover, but slowly fading into obscurity.
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