Preface: I am not a high ELO player. In fact, I think I have less than 200 wins. That said, I do have significant experience with this type of game and with RTS in general -- I was the #1 player of Supreme Commander (1, the expansion, and 2) for an extended period of time, and reached a PSR of 1850 in HoN. I don't mean to stretch my epeen too much, I just don't like being ignored or scoffed at - I've got pretty good reasons for the way I build and would appreciate if folks would actually try this out before mocking.
Having played probably 40 or 50 games with this build now, I am extremely confident in it- particularly now that LoCicero seems to be quite addicted to it. If I can bait a post by him or another top player (after they try the build) in this thread on a possible way to improve the build, I gladly welcome it. It seems strong to the degree that once Flash is removed and this build becomes well known, Veigar will probably become at least tier 2.
There isn't a lot of leeway in most of the build components, and I will explain why as I go along. If someone comes up with a creative variation, I'd love to hear it - but it's probably better to play as I've outlined first a few times to get a feel for it.
The entire point of this build is to get an absurdly fast Locket (Target: 9 minutes. Anything less than 11 is acceptable, 12 is pushing it I think) and to completely take over the mid lane, denying their mid farm and in all likelihood killing him at least once. After you destroy their tower, push the rest of their team out of their lanes (hopefully by killing them) and deny them farm with your ridiculous bulk and poking power. You should be able to carry most low-elo games pretty hard, and from what I understand of what 5HITCOMBO and LoCicero have told me, this is very viable at high ELO play.
And so, building a better Veigar:
Summoner spells: Ghost/Teleport
Since the build centers around a fast Locket, you desperately need Teleport in order to quickly return to the lane after 2 specific blue pills: once to buy your Catalyst (or just health crystal if you do not yet have enough gold at the 4:30-5:00ish region and once to buy your Locket. It also gives you a significant amount of mobility to roll around the map and help both the sidelanes to dominate. Ghost: Pretty much a gimme. You need an escape skill, Ghost > flash imoimoimo, and you can get the Ghost mastery without mucking with your masteries. It also helps turn you into a vicious tower-diving chasebot once you are done your Locket (and probably boots).
Masteries: 0/9/21
I will probably catch some flak for this, but it is not in the least bit optional. 1. 15% spell pen is way overrated. If you are hitting someone at any point for whom this makes a real difference to your damage, you are doing something wrong. 2. SoS is imba, and 100% necessary for this build.
Anyways, 3 armor 3 mres 3 SoS, 1 Tele, 1 Ghost, 2 regen etc, 1 in Greed is the only other major caveat to what you might expect. It does make a difference.
Runes
This is the first place where I feel you have a bit of wiggle room to suit the sort of game you're in, in terms of enemy champs and what ELO level it is.
The Avarice Quints + Greed = an extra 240 gold by 10 minutes, which is HUUUUUUUUGE for this build. Probably a dozen times so far these have actually made the difference between me getting my locket and having to make another trip back. One of the few builds where I would actually advocate this. 2 sets of MP5/LVL runes is quite greedy, but does help you farm and stomp those low ELO games that much harder.
For High ELO (Trouble expected)
Quints: Flat Health Red: Magic Pen Yellow: Armor Blue: MP5plvl
Pretty self explanatory. The health and armor provide an immense bonus to your 400-odd starting HP, and help you paint over that giant target on your back that says HARASS MEEEEE. You won't be able to use your Q every time it comes off CD until after you get your Locket, but that's alright as long as you can last hit- you'll make up for it later.
Skill Order: QEQWQR -> Max Q, level W. Learn to drop your bomb before you stun. If your lane opponent gets ludicrously fast merc treads, go ahead and level your stun.
Item Build
Start with a Sapphire Crystal. It gives you more mana, more mana regen (due to Veigar's passive), and SoS will bring you to 13 hp/5sec. Most importantly, it is a Locket component, meaning you only have to make 1850 more gold to win your lane.
Next item: Innervating Locket. Skip boots, it's seriously that important.
Then: Sorc Boots, DFG, Rylai's, Zhonya's. DFG gives you immense burst independent of your AP, which helps you get a couple early kills and snowball even harder. In pubstomps, I will often get a Mejai's after my sorc boots, but it is an extremely terrible idea in any sort of competitive game as Veigar snowballs hard enough as it is- and just needs his items.
Rylai's is next, because the HP it gives you in addition to that from Locket makes you nigh-unkillable if you're playing correctly. In addition, the insane slow added to your ridiculous Q on a short cooldown makes you an awesome chase hero on the level of Vladimir with the addition of your stun. You can pop an enemy hero with DFG, Q once or twice as they run away, and then hit them with your full combo (minus DFG of course) once they're low enough to kill.
Buy blue pots and wards whenever and wherever you can. After Locket, Veigar is not terribly item dependent.
Playstyle
SOLO MID, NOT OPTIONAL.
Before you get your Locket: play like a big chocolate slut. If possible, completely ignore your opponent and just last hit, harass with autoattack if you feel the need. The much safer play, however, is to just harass with your Q (less mana intensive than your combo) and last hit with your autoattack. You can make up the difference later.
Usually, I play as greedily as possible unless and until my opponent proves that they are determined to push me out of the lane. Usually by then I have my Catalyst and can afford the mana to harass with Q to try to keep them off my back. Be good at last hitting. You cannot afford to miss very many creeps.
Your tower will almost inevitably take some damage at this stage (usually about 1/3 for me) because you simply don't have the power yet to push it back. It's OK, just be good at last hitting under the tower.
At 4:30-6:00, blue pill and buy your health crystal or Catalyst. Teleport back to lane, continue your farm.
When Teleport CD comes back up, if you have enough gold to buy your Locket, do it immediately. If have enough gold for boots as well, get them. If you don't, but you have enough for a ward or two, go ahead and get that. You will need them. If you don't have enough gold for Locket, you are probably doing something wrong, but it is likely not a huge deal. Just wait the extra 30 seconds. Teleport back to the lane, and TAKE OVER.
The +430hp from Locket, and the approximately 80hp/5s you gain (not counting the bonus you get from SoS off of the Mana component) while you last hit/harass with Q every time it's off CD means that you really do not give a fuck about just about anything. Do not overextend, as you can still get ganked by their jungler, but any sort of harass from the opponent or his creeps is now literally nothing to you. Even his tower is really a non-concern, especially if you took Armor yellow runes.
The first couple minutes after you get your Locket are the greatest, and most hilarious seconds of the game as your opponent is scratching his head at your infinite quantities of HP and mana, and frustrated that he can't even come close to the lane. If he does, pop him with Q. If he persists, pop him with Q again because you are TANK VEIGAR and he needs to get the fuck off your lawn. If your opponent ever goes below something like 500 HP and comes remotely close to you, pop ghost, hit him with your full combo + ult. He will usually live with about 60 hp, which is OK, because you can chase him right under and even through his goddamn tower and hit him again with your Q for the kill.
If you are playing properly, your opponent will either die or have to blue pill. When he does, push the lane and do damage to his tower. Be careful of the enemy jungler, especially if your opponent seems to be taking an unusually long time to return to the lane. When he does return, go back to your tower, blue pill, buy your sorc boots, TP back in, and finish the job on his tower. With your sorc boots, your power is practically doubled again due to the mobility and spell pen, and you should have no trouble killing the enemy tower, barring teamfights and other bullshit that may find their way to the mid.
After this, play Veigar like you would normally play Veigar, but more aggressively. Roam the map pushing lanes and looking for kills. Buy wards. Buy blue pots. Initiate teamfights with your insane stun. Keep in mind that the regen from Locket means that you practically never have to return to base, but you probably should anyways every time your TP is up anyways to buy. Because of your considerable bulk, do not be afraid of towerdiving to get a kill or two. Poke constantly. KS like a whore because you get +5AP from every kill. Basically be a big (lol) blue bully, and punish enemies for being alone, and especially for being low health or squishy. If there is a Lux on the enemy team, laugh your ass off because you are going to kill her over and over again.
Buffs Let your jungler take the first 2 blue buffs, but ask for the 3rd one. The 24% CDR + the 6% from your masteries and 10% from Locket means you're maxed. Even more mana never hurts either.
Further reading: None. Just ask Q's, and I will do my best to answer.
Request vouch from Loci/5HIT/others I played with last night. =P
Oh, just remembered: IGN Lokan if you want a game.
I played a ton of veigar and I usually go glass cannon insta-kill enemy carry build but this sounds interesting...
I will have to try it out
edit: watched the stream and you can tell within 30 seconds he doesnt play veigar... misses 90% of his W's. I missed the early game but mid game he still has pretty meager survivability with the locket.
Locket Veigar is fucking unkillable. I was raping him as Corki and thought to myself "don't have to dive for the kill, just keep denying him when he comes back" and all of a sudden he shows up with a locket and I can't harass him anymore???
On November 24 2010 07:36 TheGreenMachine wrote: I played a ton of veigar and I usually go glass cannon insta-kill enemy carry build but this sounds interesting...
I will have to try it out
You can still usually instantly kill the enemy carry, but this way his team can't instantly kill you right afterwards.
On November 24 2010 07:37 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: Locket Veigar is fucking unkillable. I was raping him as Corki and thought to myself "don't have to dive for the kill, just keep denying him when he comes back" and all of a sudden he shows up with a locket and I can't harass him anymore???
On November 24 2010 07:37 xDaunt wrote: You forgot the most important part: get the Veigar Greybeard skin.
Indeed. I do use this skin, but I forgot to mention it in the guide. =P
My only concern: are you still able to do enough damage during the early/mid game? You're AP is going to be rather low for some time.
Absolutely. The way it tends to work out, the extra poke damage you are able to do from the extra non-retaliable Q's more than makes up for any damage lost from the fairly negligible amount of AP lost. Plus, you are able to farm much more easily after you get your Locket, and it thus synergizes with your Q's passive and lets you gain AP that way.
You are starting Mana Crystal + Avarice Quints = 0 HP? I can't imagine you surviving that against Flash/Cleanse/stun/slow/gank. Not even in mid, unless the lane is pushed into a nice and convenient place right next to your tower at all times. Yeah with godlike reaction you might be able to Event Horizon into safety occasionally. I even doubt you can get in to lasthit against a variety of enemies with such low HP. (since you're saying this is for low elo, we may assume that the Veigar player isn't all that awesome either...)
On November 24 2010 07:45 spinesheath wrote: You are starting Mana Crystal + Avarice Quints = 0 HP? I can't imagine you surviving that against Flash/Cleanse/stun/slow/gank. Not even in mid, unless the lane is pushed into a nice and convenient place right next to your tower at all times. Yeah with godlike reaction you might be able to Event Horizon into safety occasionally. I even doubt you can get in to lasthit against a variety of enemies with such low HP. (since you're saying this is for low elo, we may assume that the Veigar player isn't all that awesome either...)
That is why that build is only to be used for games that you expect to completely stomp because your opponents are bad. Obviously (and as I said in the guide), Flat HP Quints and Armor yellows are the way to go if the enemy players are not braindead.
If you expect a complete stomp, then why not just go AP or MPen to improve your ability to kill quickly (you should decide the game well before 15 minutes, which is about the time when Avarice Quints start to kick in)? Or HP to improve your ability to towerdive for early kills or to be able to 1vMany better? If you expect to end the game quickly, Avarice Quints are not really helpful.
Not to mention it's kinda useless to provide a rune setup for games where rune setups don't matter.
Welp, Regi says he invented this build and kicked me off his stream. I have no further use for that cunt.
On November 24 2010 07:57 spinesheath wrote: If you expect a complete stomp, then why not just go AP or MPen to improve your ability to kill quickly (you should decide the game well before 15 minutes, which is about the time when Avarice Quints start to kick in)? Or HP to improve your ability to towerdive for early kills or to be able to 1vMany better? If you expect to end the game quickly, Avarice Quints are not really helpful.
Not to mention it's kinda useless to provide a rune setup for games where rune setups don't matter.
The avarice quints kick in by letting you get your Locket 1 minute quicker, which makes an enormous difference to all of the above. If you don't like em, don't use em- I prefer HP anyway.
Small note: you actually regen less mp5 at a given flat amount of mana used if you start with a sapphire crystal compared to nothing. Veigar's passive works like Chalice--it only boosts the mp5 you already have by some percentage (so if you're at 0 mana, you regen mp 150% as fast as you would at full mana).
(At least, I assume it works like Chalice. I don't own Veigar to test, but Chalice definitely works as I said and Veigar's passive has the same wording so I assume that's how it works also).
(You regen less because your missing mana percent is smaller with the sapphire crystal. This of course doesn't actually probably matter much in practice since you still have the larger mana pool and if you want more mana that builds toward Locket you don't really have another choice for a starting item (unless you want to start 2x Faerie Charm I guess), but I figure you may as well have the information in your OP correct).
That said I think the idea of Locket on Veigar is pretty interesting and seems to make sense.
On November 24 2010 08:09 crate wrote: Small note: you actually regen less mp5 at a given flat amount of mana used if you start with a sapphire crystal compared to nothing. Veigar's passive works like Chalice--it only boosts the mp5 you already have by some percentage (so if you're at 0 mana, you regen mp 150% as fast as you would at full mana).
(At least, I assume it works like Chalice. I don't own Veigar to test, but Chalice definitely works as I said and Veigar's passive has the same wording so I assume that's how it works also).
(You regen less because your missing mana percent is smaller with the sapphire crystal. This of course doesn't actually probably matter much in practice since you still have the larger mana pool and if you want more mana that builds toward Locket you don't really have another choice for a starting item (unless you want to start 2x Faerie Charm I guess), but I figure you may as well have the information in your OP correct).
You have it backwards I think.
Assume you start with 200 mana
At 50 mana, you are at 25% of your mana bar (75% missing), and will, from Veigar's passive, gain an extra 37.5% regen (0.5 * (100-25=75%)
Now if you have mana crystal, if you have 50 mana, you will be at 12.5% of your mana bar (87.5% missing) and will gain (0.5 * 87.5) = 43.75% bonus regen. It's not a big difference in any case, but it does help.
At 50 mana, you are at 25% of your mana bar (75% missing), and will, from Veigar's passive, gain an extra 37.5% regen (0.5 * (100-25=75%)
Now if you have mana crystal, if you have 50 mana, you will be at 12.5% of your mana bar (87.5% missing) and will gain (0.5 * 87.5) = 43.75% bonus regen. It's not a big difference in any case, but it does help.
In the second case you've used 200 more mana; my point was that after you've used 200 mana in either case you have more mp5 without the crystal. I suppose you were merely misleading--my assumption was that you meant you'd get more mp5 at the same flat mana usage, which as I said is untrue--instead of actually wrong, but I'd clear it up anyway.
At 50 mana, you are at 25% of your mana bar (75% missing), and will, from Veigar's passive, gain an extra 37.5% regen (0.5 * (100-25=75%)
Now if you have mana crystal, if you have 50 mana, you will be at 12.5% of your mana bar (87.5% missing) and will gain (0.5 * 87.5) = 43.75% bonus regen. It's not a big difference in any case, but it does help.
In the second case you've used 200 more mana; my point was that after you've used 200 mana in either case you have more mp5 without the crystal. I suppose you were merely misleading--my assumption was that you meant you'd get more mp5 at the same flat mana usage, which as I said is untrue--instead of actually wrong, but I'd clear it up anyway.
Ah, I see- I misread you. Sorry about that.
I think my definition is more relevant anyways, because you tend to burn through your mana really fast as V. =P
Tried the build out a couple times. I definitely like it. The staying power that the locket gives Veigar is incredible. It did take a little bit of adjustment to deal with the lower initial damage (I was more of a glass cannon Veigar player).
I must say, after reading this, I had to try it out immediately. It's so fun! It allows Veigar to get just that little bit closer to team fights in the mid-game; enough to be a bit more useful with his stun and nukes, rather than dancing around the edges waiting for enemies to fall into bad positions.
Also, the fact that you've got so much staying power in the early-mid game, means that farming up is so so easy. I'm easily getting at least 230-240 CS per game (unranked) with him now, regardless of whether we win or lose.
Just tried this build and was 6-0 by 15 min mark. Raped trist in mid. Only died b/c our trynd was bad and wasn't in half the teamfights later on ;o Definitely liking this build.
On November 25 2010 06:19 xDaunt wrote: I gotta say, being able to walk up to Mord and shoot him in the face repeatedly and with impunity is pretty damned funny.
Yea this is exactly it. People are used to seeing you blow your cooldowns then run away, but now you just stand there unloading nuke after nuke on them.
Seems like these locket first builds are becoming quite popular, been seeing them a lot this week on various casters (im at ~1450 elo on europe). Lost a game vs a locket mejais kassa, had a lot of trouble vs him. In that game, I was like 'how can locket be better than RoA?' but it rly offers a lot more survivability and allows you to run over ur lane.
this build is so funny, its really funny to be practically invincible in lane and have the potential to farm literally forever. I used to have awful mana issues with veig, but locket pretty much remedies that completely.
SoS gives you 13 hp per second? Wow that sounds OP.
SoS gives you 15 HP regen every 5 seconds, for every 1000 max mana you have. HP regen is usually measured every 5 secs, so what was meant was most likely:
'With a Mana Sapphire, SoS will increase your base HP regen (4.5 health per 5) to 13 health per 5', which amounts to a net gain of 8.5 health per 5 from SoS.
Due to an unreasonable team-mate, I laned bot with my friend who played Janna and just let me take all the last-hits. I didn't actually check what time I got my catalyst or locket, but it didn't feel tooo much later than normal. We stomped all over our lane anyway and went on to just push our lane all the way to the inhibitor turret with no problems.
bout time ppl realized locket was insanely good. great buildup, cheap, provides a TON of stats that are useful to almost any caster with a spammable nuke.
dunno why people kept building RoA or Archangel's on Sona after the locket change
I just played a game and had reasonable good stats with the Veigar Locket build. It's really a lot of fun and makes him much more durable against nukers. On the other hand people will really try to poke fun at you for building it on veigar. If you live to cast your ultimate against a heavy caster, they will drop pretty hard though.
Just won a 4v5 with locket veigar. I actually was just screwing around since I figured we lost. So went locket -> boots -> RoA -> rylais -> zhonyas. It gave me like 3.4k hp so I could nuke 3 people dead by the time they killed me if they focused on me lol.
I tried this today and they refused to give me mid so I was top wasnt very effective but I still managed to get a locket at around the 11 minute mark. Team played like shit but everytime I managed to walk into a teamfight I made it a living hell for them, the game dragged out into an epic 50 minute game where we slowly turned it around on them Veigar building up to 700+ AP with zhonya rylais etc.
Lategame I was a little blue walking deathbomb that made them run in fear I found out that deathfire's grasp is kind of disgusting on veigar though with the extra 3.5% per 100 AP if I threw a deathfire at a tank they took over 50% of their health if they got caught in the E>W wombo combo they were almost entirely dead. This plus the cooldown reduction was just sick, their carries ran in fear of my R. Had 3k health... it was just wrong very very wrong.
....In all seriousness, though, the 50% more effective passive should allow Veigar to run Armor runes as he pleases and still last hit/harass with Q every time it comes off CD in the lane. This, in addition to the higher projectile speeds (making last hitting way less of a chore and making his combo way harder to dodge) should elevate him way, way higher in the list of heroes desirable to have on your team.
Sincere apologies for the triple post. I, uh, don't know what came over me.
I'm really interested in seeing how the buff to the passive affects Veigar's early game. Being finally able to harass AND farm would be really really cool.
On December 02 2010 00:53 xDaunt wrote: I'm really interested in seeing how the buff to the passive affects Veigar's early game. Being finally able to harass AND farm would be really really cool.
It's fricken awesome. ;o All I can say. Love the missle speed change. Finally your autoattack hits before caster minions.
I played a couple games with Veigar and it was pretty good even thought I was making lots of mistakes. My teammates made fun of me for the Locket build but they shut up when they saw how long I could last.
So, when you're playing veigar, how do you get people to stop focusing you? I was raping the whole game, but by the end, they realized that I was the only one dealing damage. The game ended when we lost a teamfight because it was 4v5. Is the only solution build tankier or is there something I'm not getting?
On December 05 2010 11:11 Owned Noob wrote: So, when you're playing veigar, how do you get people to stop focusing you? I was raping the whole game, but by the end, they realized that I was the only one dealing damage. The game ended when we lost a teamfight because it was 4v5. Is the only solution build tankier or is there something I'm not getting?
You can't. Only solution when your teammates are idiots is to carry harder.
Out of curiosity. When laning against some of the harder enemies how far back do you stand on the lane? Cause I got slapped pretty hard when a ryze just ran up/flash up and root/bounce ball'ed me to death. Frustrating as hell. Got my revenge lategame though.
On December 07 2010 00:33 Advocado wrote: Out of curiosity. When laning against some of the harder enemies how far back do you stand on the lane? Cause I got slapped pretty hard when a ryze just ran up/flash up and root/bounce ball'ed me to death. Frustrating as hell. Got my revenge lategame though.
Way back. Even after the passive upgrade, I'm still not a huge fan of Veigar in the laning phase. He's too easy to bully around if he's soloing against most other enemies, especially someone like Malphite/Gragas/Mord/[insert caster tank]. I think that the better/safer play is to go into the duo lane with Veigar. It's much easier to farm up, and you can still get the locket fairly quickly.
Locket still gives you a lot of HP, cooldown reduction, and an okay aura for the team, so I really wouldn't like to switch it out personally, even if I'm item capped. You're veigar so the longer the game goes while other players might get item capped your AP can still rise. With veigar sometimes I just have rylais and zhonyas and I have 400+ AP. I'd definitely put survivability over AP items on him. Plus, archangels suck. >.>
Be brave. TANK VEIGAR! Sorc shoes, Frozen heart, warmogs or rylais, abyssal, zhonyas, GA/banshees/FoN/Omen, depending on what the game dictates. Farm with q. Get 400+ AP with ~180-200 armor/MR and 3k+ health. ;o
If the item does not give you survivability then don't even bother buying it. FUUUU archangels.
On December 15 2010 20:13 spinesheath wrote: That's not brave. Not at all.
Mejai's, Leviathan, SotO, Triforce.
Forgot GA and boots. ;p Well callers the one who goes "if it doesn't help you towerdive then it's not brave." I'd say every item being a survivability item = brave. REVOLUTION! Seriously though, I've been trying to find a way to make veigar not die so he's not just a 1hit wonder. Locket did that. But I've been finding just building him with tank gear works similar. getting the glacial shroud kind of replaces getting locket. Instead of getting health you get armor though. And damage mitigation + some health pots + natural regen is usually good enough for laning early where he's weakest. In teamfights I can literally stand in the middle and just tank stuff while I nuke down squishies with at least 300 AP. You only need 125 cs + zhonyas to get that and that's easy to get.
It's not like I need a ton of AP with Veigar to carry. As long as I have 350+ I can carry hard and usually just with DFG/Zhonyas/Rylais I'll have around 480 or so.
Edit - NVM
Might as well just go with Cata -> RoA and go back to glass cannon Veigar.
What are everyone's thoughts on levelling E before W (like QEQWQR; R>Q>E>W)? Yeah, your damage takes a hit (200 damage difference from level 5 to level 1 dark matter), but having the ability to stun groups of enemies for 2.5 seconds every 12+ seconds (assuming you get some CDR like a DFG) gives Veigar a ton of utility in teamfights.
For the record, I'm liking the meki + 2 hpots => sorc boots => DFG => Rylai build (sometimes getting the belt before DFG depending upon how the game is going).
On December 30 2010 04:29 BlackPaladin wrote: I've always done r>q>e>w, The stun is too invaluable imo. Imba AoE stun ftw.
ya i do the same, not to mention that excess dmg that you got for lvling w is kinda wasted when your stun doesn't last long enough to hit them. technically it might be better for farming and might be an option against a heavy pusher like sivir, but the benefits of a longer stun are too great to try and eke out just a little more dmg (imo, imo, imo ofc and all that)
With the locket gone, I'm trying to think of ways to improve Veigar's mid game, especially in teamfights. I'm thinking that CDR-oriented builds that leverage the stun would probably do that best because he can be a gamebreaker in teamfights. I definitely like DFG on Veigar, but I'm having difficulty deciding what a second CDR item should be. I'm leaning towards kindlegem because it also gives HP, is relatively inexpensive, and its successor items (soulshroud, shurelya, visage) could be a replacement for Rylai's (the slow isn't really needed on Veigar).
The build would look something like meki => sorc boots => DFG/kindlegem (order depending upon how much defense you need). From there, I'd get some big +AP item -- probably zhonya or whatever batshit crazy +AP replacement Riot has in mind when Zhonya is taken out -- adding defense as needed. Nontheless, I think that the DFG/kindlegem gives Veigar a ton of damage, a fairly spammable AoE stun, and reasonable defense for a caster at a relatively cheap price. I'll have to play with it some more.
A Meki start plus no later laning items (e.g. DRings or Catalyst) seems pretty iffy on someone like Veigar who doesn't exactly have the best lane control.
On December 30 2010 09:36 Abenson wrote: Can you update the guide? Locket got nerfed (literally) to nothing
You'll probably have to wait a bit for another unique build to develop. "Standard" Veigar play is probably mana crystal => sorc boots => catalyst => DFG => Rod of Ages. Some swap out the RoA for Rylais. Skill order is usually QEQWQR, R>Q>W>E.
On March 13 2011 07:17 Navi wrote: plz don't duo lane two ap carries together kthx
Yah, I should have laned with the Miss Fortune who it was his first game as that character and was level 10 instead. And I sure as hell am not going to lane with two of the randoms, I only lane with people in my party so we can coordinate on vent. As far as I'm concerned, two AP carries coordinated on vent are more efficient than some random and an AP carry (mainly because the two other people on our team were horribad and kept feeding)
On March 13 2011 07:24 Slayer91 wrote: His stun spell is really good. his burst is great too, think his early game is weak though.
His early game is monstrous. You can harass so well with his Q, and get such a high AP rating early on if you keep last hitting it's ridiculous. I think I got like 60 AP from my Q before I ran out mana. Not to mention, if you push their minions back early on, it's nigh-impossible for them to do anything since of Dark Matter, and it's impossible for them to get first blood at all since Event Horizon is retarded good.
i think building cdr boots into deathfire is way to go max cdr is great on him lets u build up q ap faster and spam hard in teamfights and ur ult is up more too
On March 13 2011 07:24 Slayer91 wrote: His stun spell is really good. his burst is great too, think his early game is weak though.
I've never been very impressed with his stun. It has good AoE and range, but it's cooldown is stupidly long, and you can't really afford to level it without sacrificing significant damage.
Like various other parts of his kit, it's super-good late-game but is somewhat lackluster until you get there.
On March 13 2011 07:24 Fruscainte wrote: Yah, I should have laned with the Miss Fortune who it was his first game as that character and was level 10 instead. And I sure as hell am not going to lane with two of the randoms, I only lane with people in my party so we can coordinate on vent. As far as I'm concerned, two AP carries coordinated on vent are more efficient than some random and an AP carry (mainly because the two other people on our team were horribad and kept feeding)
I believe the correct choice there then is to pick a jungler.
On March 13 2011 07:24 Fruscainte wrote: His early game is monstrous. You can harass so well with his Q, and get such a high AP rating early on if you keep last hitting it's ridiculous. I think I got like 60 AP from my Q before I ran out mana. Not to mention, if you push their minions back early on, it's nigh-impossible for them to do anything since of Dark Matter, and it's impossible for them to get first blood at all since Event Horizon is retarded good.
What?
I'm pretty sure Veigar's early laning is well-acknowledged as being fairly poor.
On March 13 2011 09:19 eagle wrote: i think building cdr boots into deathfire is way to go max cdr is great on him lets u build up q ap faster and spam hard in teamfights and ur ult is up more too
You don't want to itemize CDR cap on a champ that's high blue buff priority. It's a waste of gold to spend money itemizing a stat that you will overcap yourself on more than 50% of the time.
His laning is shit though and he's useless until level 18 with 203480238423 Q farm.
<3 Veigar though.
I think he has really really strong midgame burst. The buff on his R helped a bunch, and if you've been really passive in lane, wait till you're level 11, then you suddenly burst them down really hard if they're not careful. Then you can start roaming around since I think he has a pretty good roaming gank.
On March 13 2011 11:19 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: Veigar is my "main." Best champion ever.
His laning is shit though and he's useless until level 18 with 203480238423 Q farm.
<3 Veigar though.
I think he has really really strong midgame burst. The buff on his R helped a bunch, and if you've been really passive in lane, wait till you're level 11, then you suddenly burst them down really hard if they're not careful. Then you can start roaming around since I think he has a pretty good roaming gank.
I love his roaming power the most, as you put it. Although I gave his early game too much credit a few posts back, I was pretty meh for most of the early game. Then out of nowhere, I hit level 11 and had my Deathfires Grasp and Sorcerer's Boots and just went into beast mode. I could just run around Event Horizon, Dark Matter, Primordial Burst, Ult, and then Deathfire Grasp. Even their tanks were dying in almost 2 seconds from the retarded burst I had. This just kept going on and on and on. I'm sure it's attributed to the fact that they were bad as hell, but I can see myself playing Veigar more now.
On March 13 2011 11:54 Fruscainte wrote:I could just run around Event Horizon, Dark Matter, Primordial Burst, Ult, and then Deathfire Grasp.
What.....? Primordial Brust IS his ult. His q is Baleful Strike.
Generally if you land a stun you can w -> q -> DFG -> ult -> q when off cooldown. You want to w first b/c it takes time to land, and q b/c of the short cooldown. You want to DFG early in your combo b/c it does damage based on their current health so you want them near full when you use it. Generally 1 q's damage outweighs the few damage difference you might get from DFG if they weren't hit from q. Your ult is always the last in your combo and only should be used if you can't finish them with 1 more q. To judge that though you need experience knowing your burst potential with X number of AP vs X number of MR.
W DFG Q Ult is my preferred order. I also like getting Deathcap before DFG because I think you actually do more damage that way... And because at lower levels, without full Event Horizon, you might not have enough time to get 4 moves + another Q off, so more AP means the ones that you do have time to get off do more damage.
It doesn't; it's instant b/c it's an item, but q does have a cast time just like all abilities do. That's why I like to q before DFG (clicking-wise...they go off at approximately the same time though). Although I don't know DFG's missile speed. Sometimes I see it land before my q, sometimes after. :s
Mathematically:
DFG vs deathcap For comparing purposes, lets give veigar a blasting wand to make the price closer to deathcaps cost. 2610 + 860 = 3470 gold vs 3600
Assume veigar with 60 AP (reasonable to assume -> 60 last hits with q)
DFG: 60 AP + 40 (BW) + 60 = 160 deathcap: 155 + 60 + 30% of total = 215 + 30% (65) = 280
AP ratios: q = .6 - DFG - 96 // Deathcap - 168 = difference of 72 w = 1 - DFG - 160 // Deathcap - 280 = difference of 120 r = 1.2 (not including 80% of target AP) - DFG - 192 // deathcap - 336 = difference of 144 Total difference = 336 damage
DFG does 30% of target's current hp +3.5% per 100 AP. Say the person has only 1200 hp. That's 360 damage with 0 AP. In this example with veigar having over 100 AP that would mean it does ~33.5% (402 damage). Both are magical and both are reduced by MR the same way.
So even with only 1200 hp it will do more damage than a deathcap. Even if you include another q, it will still do equal damage at the very least. Generally most casters will buy a catalyst during lanning anyway though, (carries often stack 2-3 dorans) and will have over 1500 (sometimes much more) by the time you can get DFG + blasting wand/deathcap.
You also need to consider that the utility that DFG gives from the mana regen as well as CDR is invaluable on veigar since DFG + runes and masteries + blue buff = maxed CDR or near max and veigar is so mana hungry.
god i love veigar. i played him all the time before i found kassadin.
his early game is shit, but just play passively until you hit q lvl 4 and have farmed about 40-50 ap with q, and you can harass the shit out of the opponents. it's so funny.
My goodness OP is out of date. I don't normally play Veigar but I spent about 15-17 straight games on him this week and I've got a few observations that might be helpful to anyone who wants to know what their options are if they play him. Obviously take this advice with a grain of salt. I'm not seasoned with him but I certainly would have benefited from knowing what I do now when I first picked him up this week.
E (stun) gets one point, no more until your damage spells are done. You should avoid trying to kill people with merc treads (and irelia, what a bitch). You should be able to land W with a one point E on anyone who doesn't have merc treads.
You can cut a few levels on your Q to max your W earlier, I stop at lv3 or 4 on Q to cap W.
If you decide not to get Strength of Spirit, for God's sake get an HP regen item. I like Faerie Charm, Rejuve Bead + 1 HP pot to start, then B for Philo Stone.
Winning a solo lane as veigar is incredibly difficult, avoid taking the solo lane. Wasting Qs on harass makes him a sad yordle.
Soraka is my favorite bro for a duo lane, she doesn't jack my last hits, can reduce magic resist of enemies, gives me mana, and keeps my HP up.
Opening Item Builds:
Strength of Spirit - Mana Crystal + HP Pot x2
No Strength of Spirit - Faerie Charm, Rejuve Bead (or more pots), HP Pot x1. Try to not get forced to B till you can afford Philo Stone.
Lategame Items. Build survivability as needed. AP Item order is non-negotiable. Once you get accustomed to using the DFG with your burst combo you'll never go back.
Spell pen reds for early game offense (pre mercs treads) MP5 blues/yellows HP quints
Start with sapphire and two pots.
I definitely will take a solo lane (unless there are two superior solos or I'm completely mismatched) with Veigar maxing Q out first (1 point in each though)). I can't stand sharing a lane with someone who doesn't let you last hit use Q and it's rare for a random person to let me do this in peace. I think having 50+ AP after like ~10 minutes from creeps alone is worth taking a solo. Again, this is situational and sometimes I will give up the solo.
I stay in lane as long as possible and shoot for catalyst and boots on first buy. 2nd buy is usually a pick and completed boots. I will opt for mercs treads most of the time as I think they are much more worthwhile. Late game 20 MR pen doesn't mean much especially since you will get a void staff most likely (since the flat MR reduction from boots and runes comes into play before the % reduction, sorcs boots end up being only a 10 MR reduction once you have a void staff along with the mastery).
I start harassing once I have catalyst and Q maxed (level 9) if they don't have any MR, otherwise I just keep working up my AP.
RoA DFG Deathcap
And then void staff once their squishies grab MR Banshee's if they are AP heavy Hourglass if they are AD heavy
I also gamble with soulstealer a lot of games. If I get full items late game and I have less than 10 stacks at that point, I'll sell it and grab whatever I need.
So after having lots of fun with veigar and rolling 7-1 in ranked around 1500 ELO EU...
Is there any way of NOT LOSING LANE HORRIBLY VS ANYONE NOT RETARDED FFS?
Solo top is no chance at all vs all those irelias/chos/reneks/jarmans since they all can just ignore you and push tower.
Mid: Malz/Vlad/TF destroy you, kassa gets a beating and anivia is kinda even. Didn't fight annie yet but expect it to go okay.
Bot with soraka while cool just means your tower dies to cait/mf+janna lanes.
Personally I basicly go 0-1 to 0-3 in every game, then carry once DFG is there and teamfights start. As soon as you get your NLR and sorcboots you start instapopping squishies with full combo. BUT BEFORE THAT OMFG WHAT TO DO?
Also personally lategame (post-void) I get CDR boots instead of sorc and upgrade philo to elaisas vs those longrange silencers.
PS: I don't even want to win the lane by killing someone. I'm fine with staying somewhat even in CS and not dieing/losing turret. Possible?
I still use HP quints on a lot of champs. I just hate having 450-500 starting hp zzzz
Can open cloth + 5 pots. Even if you never use the cloth armor to build into anything it's totally worth it. Or faire charm + mass health pots and get a philo stone. Both really defensive openings but if they help you live in lane and farm all's good.
I played with a veigar that did the same things each games, very weird build he first gives out first blood, then give second blood, sometimes even third and then go legendary i any of the above fails, we usually lose can't really remember his sumoner name, it begins with a c and ends with a sheep
Can't get Philo and Cata and then Deathcap on Veigar unless you're doing nothing but lane unti level 18, you'll do no damage in the mid game when you're at your strongest. I don't even like Cata on Veigar at all for laning. I still stick with Meki Pendant -> DFG most of the time.
DFG is mathematically better than deathcap damage-wise for cost. It also has the added bonus of CDR + gives you another nuke every 60 seconds, essentially a 2nd ultimate. Deathcap does make all AP items you buy afterwards more cost effective but you want that extra damage you'd get from DFG asap and THEN grab deathcap. I don't mind grabbing an early tear but early archangels no way in hell. That's just bad to me on ANY champion.....
Sometimes, if I foresee laning going on for a long time against someone I'm not gonna be able to kill, I can see the merits of Tear + Deathcap before DFG just to have more sustained damage in lane. But 90% of th time DFG first is better.
flash+whatever open faerie/bluecrystal+hp pots 9/0/21 qeqw r>q>e>w Whatever runes, mpen reds only mandatory. Wouldn't run ap18 blues or flat ap quints. Movespeed or hp quints are best choices.
philo(optional)->boots1->cata-> then in any order: banshees, shurelyas, cdr boots->void. Fairly cheap build, fairly tanky, puts him up at 39% cdr without blue. Go sorcs if you feel like whoring blue.
On June 02 2011 16:01 TL Blazeraid wrote: My best luck with veigar has been of beefy sorts-
flash+whatever open faerie/bluecrystal+hp pots 9/0/21 qeqw r>q>e>w Whatever runes, mpen reds only mandatory. Wouldn't run ap18 blues or flat ap quints. Movespeed or hp quints are best choices.
philo(optional)->boots1->cata-> then in any order: banshees, shurelyas, cdr boots->void. Fairly cheap build, fairly tanky, puts him up at 39% cdr without blue. Go sorcs if you feel like whoring blue.
DFG overated. Tanky stunbot where its at.
So in midgame while you throw a stun and hope someone uses it well the other AP carry will do damage and kill stuff? How does it work out?
On June 02 2011 06:23 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: Can't get Philo and Cata and then Deathcap on Veigar unless you're doing nothing but lane unti level 18, you'll do no damage in the mid game when you're at your strongest. I don't even like Cata on Veigar at all for laning. I still stick with Meki Pendant -> DFG most of the time.
I guess you are counting on no one ever trying to kill you or gank you or even touch you in lane. Veigar is already weak in lane, and building no laning items is gonna make that even worse. You could at least get a philo stone, it's very cheap anyway and super cost effective.
Ill put sometime in to use items. I always forget to use my items in LoL. I'm really used to HoN style items and i stayed away from most use items expect consumables. Going to see how powerful this DFG really is
On June 02 2011 06:23 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: Can't get Philo and Cata and then Deathcap on Veigar unless you're doing nothing but lane unti level 18, you'll do no damage in the mid game when you're at your strongest. I don't even like Cata on Veigar at all for laning. I still stick with Meki Pendant -> DFG most of the time.
I guess you are counting on no one ever trying to kill you or gank you or even touch you in lane. Veigar is already weak in lane, and building no laning items is gonna make that even worse. You could at least get a philo stone, it's very cheap anyway and super cost effective.
I've been trying Philo stone lately, it's usually not bad. I just really dislike Catalyst on Veigar because he's so mana hungry, and the regen from Catalyst is not actually enough to keep up with his costs. The thing is, other champions that you get Cata on have some sort of innate mana regen that far surpasses Veigar's passive (Annie, Malzahar to an extent, Karthus, etc.).
When ganks come, it's usually just a matter of using stun and possibly usign summoners to get out. Honestly, dying in lane as Veigar is not an uncommon occurrence, but if you can keep up in farm by having good mana regen and Q consistently, you still can turn it around on them when you et your DFG. Veigar's burst is just so strong in the early mid game, when he first gets DFG/level 2 ult, that I think it's worth coming out behind in lane to ensure that burst.
Played against a viegar today. If he gets help, he can be really good. However, you basically have to dedicate a member of your team to constantly ganking his lane just to give him a shot at staying in it.
On June 11 2011 06:28 Two_DoWn wrote: Played against a viegar today. If he gets help, he can be really good. However, you basically have to dedicate a member of your team to constantly ganking his lane just to give him a shot at staying in it.
What? No. Veigar's way stronger in lane than he's given credit for.
Well, I was playing vlad and basically zoning the shit out of him until the enemy Lee Sin made it his personal mission to stay in the bushes and keep me from bullying viegar. I get that he is better in lane than people give him credit for, but vlad is a hard lane for any caster like that.
I'm sorry but I have to bump this. I play Veigar on a daily basis. He was one of my all time favorite heroes. But I wish to know: is this guide up to date?
It says that it was created on Nov. of 2010. With all the patches that have gone through that time, is this build still accurate? I happen to do a COMPLETELY different build on Veigar and it's very efficient.
TL, what do you think? Is this guide still very accurate? If not, then what must be done for Veigar to be even more imba than he already is?
I used to play Veigar a lot too; he's pretty ridiculously strong. He has a good lane especially in the current meta of AP mid - he can do a lot of burst to other AP carries and is almost ungankable with his ring stun. Because of that you can farm q AP forever and get super duper strong.
I think the only thing that matters to Veigar really is coordination with your team and itemization.
Okay so here is my build and i want opinions on it. Meki pendant and 2 pots, i go into fiendish codex if against range carry or into chalice against ap.
But i was thinking of starting hp regen thing and then going philo stone into eleisa's miracle, thoughts?
I used to main Veigar, so please read my guide for him. I don't play him anymore but when I used to play him, I would always have positive ratio. My best score was 32 kills / 3 deaths with him. I'm not saying I'm a pro Veigar player but I consider myself better than the average. Please put this in front page if you can.
Mindset:
Veigar is one of the most fragile champs and he needs to be treated that way. DO NOT get close to your enemy. That is why E exists. It enables you to stun from far away and land all your spells without getting close to them. Early game, Veigar is very weak and mana hungry. Do not be aggressive early game. Late game is where Veigar shines. Although Veigar has trouble taking down tanks, his spell combo can wreak havoc on non-AP champs. There are many times when I stunned a champ, used my combos, and by the time my stun was over, he was dead. He can be incredibly strong if you know how to play him.
Spell Level Order:
Level 1: Q Level 2: E Level 3: W Then start maxing Q as soon as you can. Level your E one more time if your lane enemy gets tenacity item. Otherwise, he will break free of your stun before you can fully combo him.
Q is maxed first because it really helps with Q farming. W is very mana hungry spell and really used in conjuction with your stun. You're not gonna be using W very much early game because you need to use E + W for your W to land, and that's too much mana usage, even with tears.
E is maxed second. W is maxed last.
Mastery:
9-0-21
Get 9 in Offensive so you can get the M. Penetration, and then 21 in Utility so you can have shorter CD on your summoner spells. Veigar is also very mana hungry in beginning, that is another reason why you get 21 in utility with focus on mana regeneration. The 3rd reason why 21 utility is a must is because Veigar is also very dependent on Cooldowns. 9-0-21 gives the best CDR mastery
Runes:
Magic Penetration Reds Mana Regen per level Yellows Cooldown Reduction Blues 1 Movement Speed Quint 2 Magic Penetration Quints
The reason for Movement speed is that it will help Veigar since he's not very fast and fragile. Remember that if your veigar gets caught, unless you have your E or summoner spells up, he is gonna die. I also like to get 1 so that you are faster than the enemy Veigar.
Summoner Spells:
Cleanse + Flash
or
Ignite + Flash
Veigar being fragile as he is, Flash is a MUST. He must have a defensive skill. I put 2 defensive skills on my Veigar because enemy team likes to focus me down after I start wreaking havoc. Ghost is not recommended because a CC'd veigar will die incredibly quick.
Cleanse vs. Ignite Ignite is a useful offensive skill. Although I don't think it perfectly complements his playstyle, ignite can be used with his bursty skills.
However, I choose to get Cleanse over Ignite because of how fragile Veigar is. Sure, you can use your E to prevent people from coming at you but what are you gonna do if a Nocturne ults you from way elsewhere and starts fearing you? You already used your stun, and he's probably quicker than you too. This is where Cleanse + Flash will save your ass.
Items:
Your core item is Deathfire Grasp. No Buts. Cooldown Reduction, some little AP, and a very very useful spell that you will use in conjuction with your other spells.
That extra spell acts like another mini version of his R. Would you rather have another item give you 80 AP, which will make your total damage output of your 3 other spells go up a small percentage, or would you rather have 4 offensive spells? It also works as health % ratio, so it really helps take down that beefy magic resist champ.
Beginning Item: Meki Pendant + 2 Health Potions Grab Boots then rush for Deathfire Grasp. At this point, you can choose to either start building: a) Rod of Ages b) Tears c) Mejai's
Long ago, I used to build Mejai's but snowball items can be very risky, so RoA is the best choice here imo. I don't really build tears / Archangels because I would rather have some extra life than the AP it offers. Depending on enemy composition, choose between RoA or Archangel. I don't recommend getting both.
After your finish your 3rd core item and sorcerer's shoes, your 4th item should be Deathcap. Huge AP boost.
5th item/6th item should be Void Staff and a defensive item like Banshee's Veil or Zhonya depending on if the enemy team is AP or AD concentrated.
Moonblade is also useful for its tenacity, and can be built as 2nd or 3rd item.
My item build usually:
Deathfire Grasp / Sorcerer Shoes / Rod of Ages / Deathcap / Void Staff / Banshees
How you engage:
Always use your E to start your engage. While enemy is stunned, W first, then DFG spell, then Q, then R. DO NOT USE YOUR R UNLESS YOU KNOW THAT IT WILL KILL YOUR ENEMY.
I hate seeing noob Veigars using their R and not finishing off enemies. There is a reason why his R is so strong and why it has such a long cooldown.
You want to nuke the enemy in 1 combo set. If you feel like you cannot nuke him in 1 combo, you whittle down his health or wait for it to go down before engaging him.
A simple version of his harrass would be shooting Q's, then retreating. This is risky because Q doesn't have long range, and if you get too close, you're risking your life.
A better version of his harrass would be E -> W -> Q, but this is very mana consuming. I tend to harrass like this after I grab Blue or it gets to late game.
Make sure to grab Blue. Level 9~11 is a good level to get Blue. Veigar has higher priority than most AP champs, even though the majority of public are ignorant about it. Combined with your masteries, runes, and DFG, it should give you max CDR. It will free up your mana problems so you can spam your spells and Q farm as much as you would like.
Practice landing your E's so that when you land it, the edge of the ring directly hits the enemy. You can differentiate good Veigars from bad ones by seeing how they use their E. Don't be stupid and shoot W's everywhere without stunning them first. Only bad champs get hit by Veigar's obvious/slow W.
Played some normals with Veigar. Now I can (almost) land his stuns properly!
I run mpen reds movespeed quints with flat mana regen blues and yellow. 9/0/21 with boots 3 pot opening. Flash/TP usually, ignite if I can and if needed, and exhaust if absolutely needed. Reason being:
Veigar is a fragile champion. Yes he has a stun, but your laning should consist of 1) not dying/getting zoned and 2) getting q + farm. Having a high movespeed allows you to get those q and last hits in, as well as running away/dodging what enemies can throw at you. Start boots however, leaves you at low manapool because you cannot open dring. So the flat mana regen helps you until your first back.
Additionally, having low mana means you won't be able to get a E and Q off should the jungler gank or you're needed in a skirmish somewhere. Basically using a runeset to bolster the extremely weak early game Veigar has.
After first trip back, I will usually buy two drings, and probably a ward or two. Actually that's what I always bought except one game where I tried to go codex first. Farming right (qing when you have the chance, getting most of the last hits that are possible [very important]) I will have some pots left over from the initial pots because I don't trade blows the first laning phase. The rings will provide additional health so you don't die to some burst and you'll most likely escape with a well-placed stun and flash. Rings give you the stats you want.
Then I will go for a deathcap -> whatever is necessary. I actually don't know the math behind deathcap vs dfg so it might be better to do the other way around or whatever. Items can be anything from revolver(wota), void, banshee/qss, Zhonya's. Boots mercs usually but maybe sorcs are worth buying especially given utility of his stun. But I'm a coward so I always go mercs.
Now... skillwise. R>Q should be obvious but I max stun first because that stun is incredibly powerful if well-casted. The range is 600 and the radius is approximately 400 so it's instant death for enemy squishes should you land it well (meaning they can't flash). Stun duration goes up by only .25 each level with initial duration of 1.5 so it's definitely less.
I should try only leveling to 2/3 so I can get more burst in with w especially with its high base damage + 1.0 scaling. I have not been doing it saying 'W drains my manapool' but now that I constantly have blue (sometimes even getting enemy AP's blue lol) I think W is the right way. But then with 1.0 scaling base damage is 120 + 50 per level so... situational I suppose.
Mmm too long a rant.
TLDR: 9/0/21
Flash/TP so I can always farm and have presense as well as if something goes wrong mid you have another chance to not get too behind.
Movespeed quints + flat mana regen blues and yellows to cover for his early weakness; coupled with boots opening you should focus on farming and almost never harassing (at least until first trip back).
First trip: drings + ward + potions; need experience with codex. Need input/math on dfg v ring->deathcap. Input on cata if anyone thinks if it's possible.
R>Q>E>W but need input on W>E after couple of levels in stun; I think it's situational (2.5 seconds of stun on someone who doesn't have tenacity is huge).
EDIT: I think meki opening is horrible unless enemy champs selection AND the player doesn't know how to play against veigar. I won't say it confidently because I don't have the necessary experience, but I don't see you doing better than boot opening, and even my old HPregen quint/ring opening.
EDIT: After your first trip, you should be getting blue. Here you can use E-Q or Q-E-Q in lane and threaten to finish off enemy mid. Your Q at level 4-5 will do quite the damage with 2 drings and the AP you farmed up.
Honestly, I don't see the big deal about DFG. I've used it once or twice but I have done a lot better when not getting it. I go: MPen reds Mana/5/level Yellow CDR blues Movespeed Quints
Normal caster masteries with modified teleport and flash.
Spells: Flash, teleport
Items: Meki pendant+ 2 health pots Tears + boots Large rod CDR boots Rabadon's deathcap Void staff Archangle's staff BV/Negation cloak or Zonya's hourglass depending on enemies
Didn't even notice OP was that out of date haha. I would make one but I'm not that confident without experience in 'real' games with him. But he should be played more because his damage is pretty good with ability to instantly-KO targets and utility of the unique stun in fights.
EDIT: I should add that a good Veigar needs two things apart from standard mechanics (last hitting, positioning, etc): stunning correctly and precisely, and from lategame learning to divide damage because the targets you do want to 1HKO if possible will not need full combination of QWR+DFG.
On October 12 2011 17:39 TheYango wrote: This thread needs a reset. The OP is out of date, and the "discussion" has boiled down to 3 people making consecutive posts that are their own guides.
One of you should just make the new thread.
we could take a vote depending on what people prefer. or ask the OP/mod to edit it into his front page
On October 12 2011 17:44 Wala.Revolution wrote: Didn't even notice OP was that out of date haha. I would make one but I'm not that confident without experience in 'real' games with him. But he should be played more because his damage is pretty good with ability to instantly-KO targets and utility of the unique stun in fights.
EDIT: I should add that a good Veigar needs two things apart from standard mechanics (last hitting, positioning, etc): stunning correctly and precisely, and from lategame learning to divide damage because the targets you do want to 1HKO if possible will not need full combination of QWR+DFG.
In general, W R kills an AP carry and DFG W kills a range AD. Add Q to whoever needs that extra bit of damage. If they're all low (low being ~2/3 depending on how game is going), W Q kills a support for instant triple kill huehuehue. But usually you can reliably get a double if they're at like 2/3-3/4health. Just split three ways if your team is in range to follow up for your stun even if they're at full health. Full to zero double kills are amazingly satisfying though, but you need to be pretty ahead. only had one full to zero triple kill and I was extremely fed that game ;o
Doesn't work as well if you don't take AP quints and AP/lvl blues though.
I still think mana regen blues are worthless.
I think MPen quints are pretty worthless too. AP/MS/HP all better, though I never use HP anymore.. I don't like HP regen quints either.
DFG opening > D Cap opening almost always. Tear -> D cap only if you really think you're gonna be completely useless for the first ~25 minutes of the game. Like -completely- useless, because if you go this build, you'll be completely worthless, and if you could've brought any sort of damage to your team before that just buy the DFG. I haven't actually gone tear/dcap opening in like months.
RoA is trash item don't get it.
WotA is pretty shitty on him too imo. I only played like ~5 games with it though so I could be wrong on that count. But there are just other items that are better. Only 6 item slots, and DFG, boots, hat, zhonya, void, b veil, GA all take precedence over WotA imo.
CDR boots also suck since you should be getting DFG/blue for max CDR. Like seriously get that item. It's literally the only core item on Veigar. Don't understand how you can play Veigar without a DFG. I used to not do it and then I got it and realized I was being a complete retard before. I got it after hat then his ult ratio got buffed and I got better at farming and I just got it as first item. Nothing else except boots1 is a must get on him...
Nothing wrong with opening Meki you're just bad wala ^^
On October 12 2011 17:44 Wala.Revolution wrote: Didn't even notice OP was that out of date haha. I would make one but I'm not that confident without experience in 'real' games with him. But he should be played more because his damage is pretty good with ability to instantly-KO targets and utility of the unique stun in fights.
EDIT: I should add that a good Veigar needs two things apart from standard mechanics (last hitting, positioning, etc): stunning correctly and precisely, and from lategame learning to divide damage because the targets you do want to 1HKO if possible will not need full combination of QWR+DFG.
In general, W R kills an AP carry and DFG W kills a range AD. Add Q to whoever needs that extra bit of damage. If they're all low (low being ~2/3 depending on how game is going), W Q kills a support for instant triple kill huehuehue. But usually you can reliably get a double if they're at like 2/3-3/4health. Just split three ways if your team is in range to follow up for your stun even if they're at full health. Full to zero double kills are amazingly satisfying though, but you need to be pretty ahead. only had one full to zero triple kill and I was extremely fed that game ;o
Doesn't work as well if you don't take AP quints and AP/lvl blues though.
I still think mana regen blues are worthless.
I think MPen quints are pretty worthless too. AP/MS/HP all better, though I never use HP anymore.. I don't like HP regen quints either.
DFG opening > D Cap opening almost always. Tear -> D cap only if you really think you're gonna be completely useless for the first ~25 minutes of the game. Like -completely- useless, because if you go this build, you'll be completely worthless, and if you could've brought any sort of damage to your team before that just buy the DFG. I haven't actually gone tear/dcap opening in like months.
RoA is trash item don't get it.
WotA is pretty shitty on him too imo. I only played like ~5 games with it though so I could be wrong on that count. But there are just other items that are better. Only 6 item slots, and DFG, boots, hat, zhonya, void, b veil, GA all take precedence over WotA imo.
CDR boots also suck since you should be getting DFG/blue for max CDR. Like seriously get that item. It's literally the only core item on Veigar. Don't understand how you can play Veigar without a DFG. I used to not do it and then I got it and realized I was being a complete retard before. I got it after hat then his ult ratio got buffed and I got better at farming and I just got it as first item. Nothing else except boots1 is a must get on him...
Nothing wrong with opening Meki you're just bad wala ^^
Here is what my average games have been like and also my runes and masteries.
Standard mage amsteries, 9/0/21, and MPen Reds, Mana regen/lvl yellows, ap/lvl blues and flat ap quints.
I go Meki Pendant and 2 health pots into fiendish codex. I then get sorc boots. Then i get Rabby's Deathcap then finish my DFG. I then decide between Zhonya's, BV or Void Staff, if any of them get MR I get void staff then either Zhonya's or BV. I really don't know what to get for a 6th item, anyways I would like you to kind of tell me your thoughts on my build.
Also, I need help laning against aggressive laners, I play solo queue and I find if the mid makes it his mission to shut me down and zone me, i can't do shit about it, that's why I run TP, so if i have to go back, I can try to get back to lane fast.
If your Veigar then please don't last pick him when the other team is light on AP and your team has a Karthus then demand to go mid vs Akali and get demolished and suck at farming AP or even last hitting. I think he can be super strong though with his high damage and interesting stun mechanic, hes just too squishy, which is why I generally like to see the other team pick him in elo hell where no one is good. I can imagine him being a monster in the right hands though but I haven't seen him used in any of the tournaments where the good teams play in.
Someone mentioned earlier in this thread that he needs ganks to sustain but I think if you put him bot with a good support that doesn't need farm he can still farm ap all day and be fine with sustain.
On October 13 2011 07:40 Slaughter wrote: If your Veigar then please don't last pick him when the other team is light on AP and your team has a Karthus then demand to go mid vs Akali and get demolished and suck at farming AP or even last hitting. I think he can be super strong though with his high damage and interesting stun mechanic, hes just too squishy.
Someone mentioned earlier in this thread that he needs ganks to sustain but I think if you put him bot with a good support that doesn't need farm he can still farm ap all day and be fine with sustain.
Veigar sucks bot don't do it. DON'T DO IT!!! He needs levels and 2 people zone him much easier than one, really doesn't matter who your support is.
Someone mentioned earlier in this thread that he needs ganks to sustain but I think if you put him bot with a good support that doesn't need farm he can still farm ap all day and be fine with sustain.
Veigar sucks bot don't do it. DON'T DO IT!!! He needs levels and 2 people zone him much easier than one, really doesn't matter who your support is.
Ha, I haven't played him in forever and he is a rare pick so *shrug* Is he really only viable mid then?
To people saying Veigar can't lane mid properly without ganks i disagree, you just have to be really passive for the first few levels.
I like to go q w q e q r, only last hit with q until about halfway through level 4, staying way far back, and only going into range of the minions to last hit. This both lets you not have to worry about dieing but sometimes causes the other champion to become a bit over confident (mainly in soloq .) As soon as i hit level 5 i try and hit them with 2-3 q's while staying way back when its on cd. this puts them at 2/3 or 1/2 health. Then as soon as i hit level 6 they either have to blue pill, giving me free farm for 20 seconds or so, or, if they stay a flash-e-q-r and ignite if neccesary will finnish them every time. After the pill back you can just hit them with a few q's every time they come back and they either have to play super carefully or every time you hit them with two to three q's in a row they need to pill.
I never understood why people said Veigar was really not viable o_o. I stopped playing him when I heard that, lol.
He has awesome damage output and an AOE stun, making ganks on him pretty tough.. And in the current meta of AP vs AP mid he's especially strong. Plus free AP for doing what you're supposed to be doing anyway which is farming.
I realize he's far from being a top AP carry, but IMO he's not that bad.
On October 13 2011 11:25 killerdog wrote: To people saying Veigar can't lane mid properly without ganks i disagree, you just have to be really passive for the first few levels.
I like to go q w q e q r, only last hit with q until about halfway through level 4, staying way far back, and only going into range of the minions to last hit. This both lets you not have to worry about dieing but sometimes causes the other champion to become a bit over confident (mainly in soloq .) As soon as i hit level 5 i try and hit them with 2-3 q's while staying way back when its on cd. this puts them at 2/3 or 1/2 health. Then as soon as i hit level 6 they either have to blue pill, giving me free farm for 20 seconds or so, or, if they stay a flash-e-q-r and ignite if neccesary will finnish them every time. After the pill back you can just hit them with a few q's every time they come back and they either have to play super carefully or every time you hit them with two to three q's in a row they need to pill.
If they see you took W level 2 they'll just gank you, you'll die without stun.
Also any good mid laner can still stomp you and zone you back so far that you'll lose exp and farm. It's hard to just "stay back and farm" if they play properly.
Veigar's range is too short and he can't trade hits with people who get close, that's why he's such a shitty laner.
The whole anti-AP thing sounds great on paper until you realize that without ganks, you -will- die horribly against anyone who knows wha they're doing.
On October 13 2011 11:25 killerdog wrote: To people saying Veigar can't lane mid properly without ganks i disagree, you just have to be really passive for the first few levels.
I like to go q w q e q r, only last hit with q until about halfway through level 4, staying way far back, and only going into range of the minions to last hit. This both lets you not have to worry about dieing but sometimes causes the other champion to become a bit over confident (mainly in soloq .) As soon as i hit level 5 i try and hit them with 2-3 q's while staying way back when its on cd. this puts them at 2/3 or 1/2 health. Then as soon as i hit level 6 they either have to blue pill, giving me free farm for 20 seconds or so, or, if they stay a flash-e-q-r and ignite if neccesary will finnish them every time. After the pill back you can just hit them with a few q's every time they come back and they either have to play super carefully or every time you hit them with two to three q's in a row they need to pill.
If they see you took W level 2 they'll just gank you, you'll die without stun.
Also any good mid laner can still stomp you and zone you back so far that you'll lose exp and farm. It's hard to just "stay back and farm" if they play properly.
Veigar's range is too short and he can't trade hits with people who get close, that's why he's such a shitty laner.
The whole anti-AP thing sounds great on paper until you realize that without ganks, you -will- die horribly against anyone who knows wha they're doing.
So, are you saying Veigar is a shitty champ and not viable? or that he needs a jungler to practically babysit him?
Agreed 100% with Carnivorous Sheep. Veigar has a terrible early game laning phase and needs jungle support. Once he hits level 7ish though, he can dick on pretty much every hero.
On October 14 2011 05:45 APurpleCow wrote: Agreed 100% with Carnivorous Sheep. Veigar has a terrible early game laning phase and needs jungle support. Once he hits level 7ish though, he can dick on pretty much every hero.
On October 14 2011 05:45 APurpleCow wrote: Agreed 100% with Carnivorous Sheep. Veigar has a terrible early game laning phase and needs jungle support. Once he hits level 7ish though, he can dick on pretty much every hero.
So is he viable?
I think he's one of the best AP carries right now.
...but his weakness is definitely his early laning.
On October 14 2011 21:50 Cosmology wrote: So how can I play him with an unreliable Jungler in low ELOs?
Also, Carnivorous Sheep, what do you think of starting with a health regen thinger/2 faerie charms and going Philo Stone?
And maybe even going into Eleisa's Miracle?
Veigar can still lane well against a lot of weaker laners early, and, again, once he hits level ~7 he has a HUGE dick. He's probably fine against most in low ELO.
Philo Stone is a pretty good item on him, I like to build it and two Rings early. Gives plenty of mana regen for Q spamming.
He doesn't need babysitting - because without your ult you have a low chance of killing enemy mid without huge dps from jungle I would actually rather have my jungle help top/bot or counterjungle. It's just that since mid is in center of the map your jungle just stops by every now and then and makes it easier for you. Play passive, you may miss some cs due to pressure but then get better at last hitting at tower.
However after you get blue with ult your kill potential goes up greatly. Most likely you won't even need the jungler's help - just e-q combo once and you're set for the kill.
On October 15 2011 06:23 Wala.Revolution wrote: He doesn't need babysitting - because without your ult you have a low chance of killing enemy mid without huge dps from jungle I would actually rather have my jungle help top/bot or counterjungle. It's just that since mid is in center of the map your jungle just stops by every now and then and makes it easier for you. Play passive, you may miss some cs due to pressure but then get better at last hitting at tower.
However after you get blue with ult your kill potential goes up greatly. Most likely you won't even need the jungler's help - just e-q combo once and you're set for the kill.
I don't mean waste summoners or cooldowns or anything to try to get kills. Jungler just needs to walk by your lane every now and then and toss a skill at your lane opponent. Forces him to back off, you keep farming.
I always got 2 points in E and then go max out W. Never seemed to have trouble landing W with rank 2 E. Then again this is also situational depending on how well you are doing.
On October 15 2011 17:56 dignity wrote: I always got 2 points in E and then go max out W. Never seemed to have trouble landing W with rank 2 E. Then again this is also situational depending on how well you are doing.
It's not about hitting W, it's about having an AoE 2.5 second stun.
Sorry to bump, but with this new patch, I feel like there is plenty of new room for discussing veigar. I am coming up with a new build, but right now it goes a little something like this.
take ghost teleport Open Amplifying tome and mana pot
-Soulstealer 20<X<160
Blasting wand + Boots
-Ionian boots
-Morello's Evil tome
turtle shell
-RoA 80AP
Needlessly large Rod
-DeathCap
-void Staff
682 AP + Farm
725 mana
630 health
35% CDR
40% Mag Pen
now of course this is best case scenario i.e. full soulstealer stacks and RoA built up, but I really feel this is waay more viable now with less mana requirements.
Why would you get a Soulstealer on Veigar? He has a weak early game with very poor defences and is squishy as fuck. He scales better into the lategame than ANYONE, you just have to get him there. Soulstealer is the opposite of what you want.
Actually I disagree with pretty much your entire build. The only CDR you need as Veigar is a Deathfire Grasp, which is an absolutely essential, non-negotiable item. The rest comes from blue buff since you're guaranteed to be the best candidate on your team for it.
Opening Amp Tome + Mana pot sounds incredibly fragile, is there anyone that won't laugh you out of lane with Boots+3 or DRing?
I'd say Veigar's core is Sorc Shoes, DFG, Deathcap and Void Staff. The other two I'd put Zhonya's/RoA or a pure defence item. He seems like a bad candidate for Rylai's and Abyssal.
I like starting with DRing or even Meki, just because it helps so much with farming those Q's... The mana-cost buff on Q was really great.
If you open amp+pot you basically get into an even MORE passive farm position than you already are just by playing Veigar. It works, but you won't get kills. Like, at all. I actually think boots + 1 manapots (nothing else) is a better opening though (assuming you only farm, like you should if you don't take hp pots). You will have enough gold for Kages and some pots pretty much at the point where you'll need to B anyways, the boots help you with avoiding just enough damage. Obv. bad against super-aggressive junglers like Shaco, but at my elo, most of those are not good enough to look at items before deciding on a gank...
Also, I've been playing around with getting defensive items first, like my boots opener -> straight Warmogs rush Catalyst -> BV in a burst heavy lane is godlike, Sions/Morgs/brands can't do shit. Also helps against ganks RoA is probably a more conservative choice, gives hp, mana, and some serious lategame AP scaling. I feel like you can afford it, since you still get a ton of AP.
Also, I'd never finish DFG before Deathcap, no sense. Just keep the Kage's. Void Staff is best as last item.
On December 16 2011 04:57 Dandel Ion wrote: I like starting with DRing or even Meki, just because it helps so much with farming those Q's... The mana-cost buff on Q was really great.
If you open amp+pot you basically get into an even MORE passive farm position than you already are just by playing Veigar. It works, but you won't get kills. Like, at all. I actually think boots + 1 manapots (nothing else) is a better opening though (assuming you only farm, like you should if you don't take hp pots). You will have enough gold for Kages and some pots pretty much at the point where you'll need to B anyways, the boots help you with avoiding just enough damage. Obv. bad against super-aggressive junglers like Shaco, but at my elo, most of those are not good enough to look at items before deciding on a gank...
Also, I've been playing around with getting defensive items first, like my boots opener -> straight Warmogs rush Catalyst -> BV in a burst heavy lane is godlike, Sions/Morgs/brands can't do shit. Also helps against ganks RoA is probably a more conservative choice, gives hp, mana, and some serious lategame AP scaling. I feel like you can afford it, since you still get a ton of AP.
Also, I'd never finish DFG before Deathcap, no sense. Just keep the Kage's. Void Staff is best as last item.
On December 16 2011 04:57 Dandel Ion wrote: I like starting with DRing or even Meki, just because it helps so much with farming those Q's... The mana-cost buff on Q was really great.
If you open amp+pot you basically get into an even MORE passive farm position than you already are just by playing Veigar. It works, but you won't get kills. Like, at all. I actually think boots + 1 manapots (nothing else) is a better opening though (assuming you only farm, like you should if you don't take hp pots). You will have enough gold for Kages and some pots pretty much at the point where you'll need to B anyways, the boots help you with avoiding just enough damage. Obv. bad against super-aggressive junglers like Shaco, but at my elo, most of those are not good enough to look at items before deciding on a gank...
Also, I've been playing around with getting defensive items first, like my boots opener -> straight Warmogs rush Catalyst -> BV in a burst heavy lane is godlike, Sions/Morgs/brands can't do shit. Also helps against ganks RoA is probably a more conservative choice, gives hp, mana, and some serious lategame AP scaling. I feel like you can afford it, since you still get a ton of AP.
Also, I'd never finish DFG before Deathcap, no sense. Just keep the Kage's. Void Staff is best as last item.
On December 16 2011 04:57 Dandel Ion wrote: I like starting with DRing or even Meki, just because it helps so much with farming those Q's... The mana-cost buff on Q was really great.
If you open amp+pot you basically get into an even MORE passive farm position than you already are just by playing Veigar. It works, but you won't get kills. Like, at all. I actually think boots + 1 manapots (nothing else) is a better opening though (assuming you only farm, like you should if you don't take hp pots). You will have enough gold for Kages and some pots pretty much at the point where you'll need to B anyways, the boots help you with avoiding just enough damage. Obv. bad against super-aggressive junglers like Shaco, but at my elo, most of those are not good enough to look at items before deciding on a gank...
Also, I've been playing around with getting defensive items first, like my boots opener -> straight Warmogs rush Catalyst -> BV in a burst heavy lane is godlike, Sions/Morgs/brands can't do shit. Also helps against ganks RoA is probably a more conservative choice, gives hp, mana, and some serious lategame AP scaling. I feel like you can afford it, since you still get a ton of AP.
Also, I'd never finish DFG before Deathcap, no sense. Just keep the Kage's. Void Staff is best as last item.
please stop talking, warmogs on veigar is zzzz
But it's funny coz they'll focus you anywayzzzz
you dont just build like a tank just because you have shit positioning.
On December 16 2011 05:24 phyvo wrote: Recently just fed a lane as Veigar. How much does Morgana own Veigar's face? I know I played badly but I'm looking for kind of consolation. T-T
Pretty badly. She just shields and walks through your stun... you can't kill her very easily at all, and she pushes your lane all day long. Has to to screw up really badly for you to win your lane (and you probably need a jungler's help even then). Without a jungler's assist, at best you're sitting on your turret farming all day long.
But if you do that, she's probably ganking side lanes. It ain't pretty.
Veigar suffers from lots of problems right now. I used to main as him, and I will admit he's pretty powerful if used correctly. However....
- He has a very long cooldown on his Ult. It's a one target Ult but it has 100 sec + cooldown. Because of this, he can only take out one enemy at a time. If he uses his Ult...well he can't really do much damage, at least not enough to kill an enemy with just Q + W + DFG
- He punishes other APs for doing good, meaning a Veigar will take out another Veigar regardless of the fact that one veigar is doing much better than another veigar. It's pretty much whoever gets Ult + Combo off first. It's very unstable matchup, just like ZvZ.
- He has no sustain whatsoever, spellvamp isn't part of Veigar's build.
- Because of his fixed damage, even if he farms his AP up to 1000, if the enemy starts stacking Health and Magic Resist, there is little Veigar can do. When I used to own the enemy team and my kills were like 16 kills / 1 death, the enemy team would always stack Magic Resist and Health. Stack one thing, and Veig can still kill, but stack both and Veig really can't penetrate enemies even with Void Staff.
- Because Veigar's playstyle and spells are designed to take out 1 enemy at a time, once he blows all his spells, the only thing he can contribute to the teamfight is his AoE stun, which has a fairly long cooldown. Meaning, if Veigar uses everything and kills an enemy, the teamfight becomes 4v4. If he couldn't finish off an enemy, the teamfight is 4v5, with Veig out of the picture.
- Veig used to have mana problems but the recent patch addressed this.
ghost owl does bring up some good points veigar just has an "old model" of a champion, back when every champ did fixed damage
now, without a blink or shield, some sort of innate vamp or mpen, or %-based damage, he just feels archaic compared to brand, xerath, ahri, and the like
i'm not saying he's bad just that he's so... ancient compared to the new breed of mobility mages imo
On December 16 2011 03:37 Alzadar wrote: Why would you get a Soulstealer on Veigar? He has a weak early game with very poor defences and is squishy as fuck. He scales better into the lategame than ANYONE, you just have to get him there. Soulstealer is the opposite of what you want.
Actually I disagree with pretty much your entire build. The only CDR you need as Veigar is a Deathfire Grasp, which is an absolutely essential, non-negotiable item. The rest comes from blue buff since you're guaranteed to be the best candidate on your team for it.
Opening Amp Tome + Mana pot sounds incredibly fragile, is there anyone that won't laugh you out of lane with Boots+3 or DRing?
I'd say Veigar's core is Sorc Shoes, DFG, Deathcap and Void Staff. The other two I'd put Zhonya's/RoA or a pure defence item. He seems like a bad candidate for Rylai's and Abyssal.
Well I must say today i was trying my build, and discovered what you said about soulstealer is true.But the next game I got it after the Evil Tome and RoA, and it was pretty kickass. If you play passive enough, and have one team fight go in your favor, you can rack up some assists/steals for Soulstealer, and having all that AP is amazing. I got to 20 and it was awesome. +160 AP and the CDR. I was just trying this build out just because i don't really like DFG, and it was pretty amazing if you ask me. What I do need to work on is the opening item(s) and the first item, because I was just hugging my tower all day vs. (let me check up on that)
Honestly, i wish you would try this out maybe and tell me what you think. It doesn't rely as much on blue, and you get way more teamfighting potential with the improved CDR. Now granted, this is at a far ELO i'm sure, but it was mostly theorycrafting.
I do have a question: why would you build a pure defense item? He is just a nuke so I don't really know why it would be beneficial to be able to last too long in a team fight, where you should just nuke, stun, and run away, come back and do it again if it is still going on.
EDIT: Ok So I had another idea. Since having 20 Stacks for soulstealer seems so hard to achieve, and not much benifit because there is enough other CDR, why not replace that with Will of The ancients. Imagine being focused at the start of a team fight, comboing their AP, and be back at near full health! Plus th 80AP and 30AP bonus to allies. Seems like a great item on veigar and would change the build to:
Ionian Boots Deathcap RoA Void Staff Evil Tome and Will of the Ancients.
If you're going to get a defensive item, a Zhonya's is probably better than WoTA... if you're going to die, it isn't going to be a slow process. Zhonya's will let you get a second combo off, and let your team wail on anyone trying to kill you.
On December 16 2011 09:29 zer0das wrote: If you're going to get a defensive item, a Zhonya's is probably better than WoTA... if you're going to die, it isn't going to be a slow process. Zhonya's will let you get a second combo off, and let your team wail on anyone trying to kill you.
Actually that makes a lot more sense.... woops. 100AP vs 80 and you get to live for 2 seconds.... that was silly of me
Spell vamp seems bad on Veigar to me because all his damage comes out at once, you can't sustain yourself in a fight with it. The only time it's useful is in the fringe case you mentioned where you are focused but not killed and not silenced/stunned, all before you get off your combo, in which case you can heal yourself. Seems too unlikely to be optimal.
Why are you trying to avoid the Deathfire Grasp? It is AMAZING on Veigar. Deals magic damage to target champion equal to 30% of their current health (+3.5% per 100 ability power) It is perfectly plausible in the midgame to have 500+ AP, so you're looking at a spell that does 45% of your target's HP on a 60 sec CD. It has the same range as your Q, making it easy to include in your combos.
On December 16 2011 09:51 Alzadar wrote: Spell vamp seems bad on Veigar to me because all his damage comes out at once, you can't sustain yourself in a fight with it. The only time it's useful is in the fringe case you mentioned where you are focused but not killed and not silenced/stunned, all before you get off your combo, in which case you can heal yourself. Seems too unlikely to be optimal.
Why are you trying to avoid the Deathfire Grasp? It is AMAZING on Veigar. Deals magic damage to target champion equal to 30% of their current health (+3.5% per 100 ability power) It is perfectly plausible in the midgame to have 500+ AP, so you're looking at a spell that does 45% of your target's HP on a 60 sec CD. It has the same range as your Q, making it easy to include in your combos.
OK ok I'll replace WOTA with Deathfire... XD I dont know why I was avoiding it.
Now could anyone help me decide an order possibly? I feel like I could rush Evil Tome but I am not sure, and am clueless on the starting item
I played with this one idiot before who went FoN first item on veigar into warmogs. I shit you not. Tee worst part was he thought he was good. 40 minutes into the game he has less than 150 ap yet get's 3-4 kills just by ks'ing with his ult. Made me so mad that this piece of trash legitimately thought he did well. He even mocked the enemy team after we won with like 'warmogs veigar too strong' and gay shit like that. So fucking useless. If wasn't a 20-0 akali we would have gotten destroyed.
On December 16 2011 10:14 Cytokinesis wrote: I played with this one idiot before who went FoN first item on veigar into warmogs. I shit you not. Tee worst part was he thought he was good. 40 minutes into the game he has less than 150 ap yet get's 3-4 kills just by ks'ing with his ult. Made me so mad that this piece of trash legitimately thought he did well. He even mocked the enemy team after we won with like 'warmogs veigar too strong' and gay shit like that. So fucking useless. If wasn't a 20-0 akali we would have gotten destroyed.
Troll Veigar build sounds op'd, new metagame yo. Ya'll just jelly.
heh, I could see it be some what decent if enemy team is all AP of sorts.
On October 12 2011 17:44 Wala.Revolution wrote: Didn't even notice OP was that out of date haha. I would make one but I'm not that confident without experience in 'real' games with him. But he should be played more because his damage is pretty good with ability to instantly-KO targets and utility of the unique stun in fights.
EDIT: I should add that a good Veigar needs two things apart from standard mechanics (last hitting, positioning, etc): stunning correctly and precisely, and from lategame learning to divide damage because the targets you do want to 1HKO if possible will not need full combination of QWR+DFG.
In general, W R kills an AP carry and DFG W kills a range AD. Add Q to whoever needs that extra bit of damage. If they're all low (low being ~2/3 depending on how game is going), W Q kills a support for instant triple kill huehuehue. But usually you can reliably get a double if they're at like 2/3-3/4health. Just split three ways if your team is in range to follow up for your stun even if they're at full health. Full to zero double kills are amazingly satisfying though, but you need to be pretty ahead. only had one full to zero triple kill and I was extremely fed that game ;o
Doesn't work as well if you don't take AP quints and AP/lvl blues though.
I still think mana regen blues are worthless.
I think MPen quints are pretty worthless too. AP/MS/HP all better, though I never use HP anymore.. I don't like HP regen quints either.
DFG opening > D Cap opening almost always. Tear -> D cap only if you really think you're gonna be completely useless for the first ~25 minutes of the game. Like -completely- useless, because if you go this build, you'll be completely worthless, and if you could've brought any sort of damage to your team before that just buy the DFG. I haven't actually gone tear/dcap opening in like months.
RoA is trash item don't get it.
WotA is pretty shitty on him too imo. I only played like ~5 games with it though so I could be wrong on that count. But there are just other items that are better. Only 6 item slots, and DFG, boots, hat, zhonya, void, b veil, GA all take precedence over WotA imo.
CDR boots also suck since you should be getting DFG/blue for max CDR. Like seriously get that item. It's literally the only core item on Veigar. Don't understand how you can play Veigar without a DFG. I used to not do it and then I got it and realized I was being a complete retard before. I got it after hat then his ult ratio got buffed and I got better at farming and I just got it as first item. Nothing else except boots1 is a must get on him...
Nothing wrong with opening Meki you're just bad wala ^^
Everything I said here still stands. The only thing that changed this patch was that Veigar can now reliably open Boots 3 pots instead of a mana regen item and still farm in lane. That's a HUGE thing, but it doesn't mean Veigar can suddenly do random crappy builds lol.
but by all means keep buildling random crap on Veigar so Riot feels the need to buff him again huehue.
He's still made of paper and gets zoned by aggressive laners, but W mana costs means you have an easier time farming with it in dire situations.
i've done semi-tank veigar before. shit's fun. boots 1 - lucky pick - warmog - boots 2 - (thornmail - dfg) <(interchangeable) - rabadon - hourglass. good farm and constant blue is obviously required, but those 2 are pretty much a requirement for any veigars. magic resist pointless because you can just burst their AP carry in the face anyways. survive long enough to fire out a good amount of dmg after initial burst
Ok so explain to me why you're all building DFG on Veigar again? Veigar has enough single target burst to facemelt just about anyone without any AP items whatsoever.
My Veigar build is a very solid, consistent way to win games at any ELO provided you can farm Q's. I run 9/12/9 with every talent that gives movespeed that I can get, extra health, and increased buff duartion. Runes are Spellpen quints/reds, mp5 yellow and mp5 blue. I play defensively in lane bar ganks and harass with Q often to set up a level 6 kill if my opponent goes for any aggressive items at all.
My goal is to first item catalyst, then stack resistances while farming champions and minions with my ulti and Q, so I'll generally get a Zhonya's, Glacial Shroud, and Banshee's Veil as follow ups depending on what I need. If I'm farming well and get a kill or two early, I'll skip cata for a Deathcap, then go DIRECTLY into Banshee's Veil and continue to build tanky. Late game, a Void Staff is a required pickup to increase your damage output.
I don't feel like taking cuts to get more AP on Veig is correct and it simply causes you to get dived by annoying tanky characters that you have no chance of deuling. A fast cata solves health/mana sustain issues and lets you get more AP by giving more opportunity to farm Q's, whereas if you build squishy/glass cannon you can easily be tower dived, suppressed or otherwise bodied and will give up many deaths.
In teamfights, it takes no effort to kill squishy Veig; any ult or tanky DPS will do. Tanky Veig still has a lot of damage and can poke repeatedly with meteors and Q's, land multiple stuns, and is always a bad choice to focus first - you'll always get your ult off because of banshee's veil. If their tanky DPS chases you around, you have a veil and a stun to get out and good sustained damage.
So yeah. Tl;dr, fuck warmog's and DFG, go veil and farm Qs
On December 16 2011 10:44 Deezl wrote: My Veigar build is a very solid, consistent way to win games at any ELO below my own
you can't really say something's good at high Elo if you don't play at a high Elo level.
and the thing is you can't instagib people until you get tons of AP, which is why you need DFG. once you DO have tons of AP, DFG does ridiculous amounts of damage so feel free to instagib two people.
edit: also building survivability on Veigar is pretty troll imo. the whole point of picking Veigar is to one shot people and once you've done that then your job is done. whether you live or die after that depends on how good your stun placement was, hourglass, and whether or not your team wants to save you. if you want a sustained damage AP carry then pick Karthus or something.
On December 16 2011 10:44 Deezl wrote: Ok so explain to me why you're all building DFG on Veigar again? Veigar has enough single target burst to facemelt just about anyone without any AP items whatsoever.
maybe @lvl6 or against pure glass cannon APs, but other than that, not likely. unless your opponent let you free farm. in which case they're complete baddies.
For the people doubting DFG...I had one game where an opponent Veigar laned better than me (enemy invisible shaco jungler, had to waste gold on vision wards, unlucky, etc) and he went straight for cap and didnt get DFG while I rushed to DFG. By the time my DFG was done, his Veig was about 200 AP higher than mine, especially cause he snowballed and got cap while I didnt. Fight breaks out, and I realized his firepower was either equal or worse than mine, simply because I had that extra DFG power. I realized how important rushing to DFG was
On a side note, if enemy gets mercury treads, your level 1 stun wont last enough to pull off the combo. Always get level 2 stun early if enemy gets tenacity
Just max E anyways. That shit's OP for teamfights. you don't really need the 200 extra damage on W from rank 5 compared to 1. Leveling W just gives you 50 damage per rank, whereas leveling E reduces CD by 1 and increases stun by .25.
r>q>e>w always for me. zzz Q is your main damage source. You need it. W scales better with AP than levels. Out of veigar's kit, it's best to max last for the most part. It's more of a lategame AoE nuke because of it's scaling. Your q + autos are all you need to farm. E is the most retardedly powerful stun in the game. Abuse it! :O
....only reason some people have a hardon for w maxed first is because it clears waves faster so you can push the wave back faster. That way you won't be supwr pushed allowing your lane opponent to leave to gank. If you're going to do that though, why not play something gay like sion then zzz. Veigar is about safe farming during lane and trying not to die because you are squishy like jello. Then abusing his midgame nuking power to steamroll teamfights. Basically you're giving up earlygame power for that super strong mid to lategame. Just nees to ward and not allow your lane opponent to gwt successful ganks off.
Dfg too good to not get on him imo. :> lets veigar do his job npnp
Tank veigar is just a troll thing I do in TL inhouses. ;( Farm all day, Be unkillable with 500+ AP from creeps and kills :D Doesn't work in games above like...600 elo aka any game with TL
Note to self: need to steal d nasty stx girl's 500 elo account to play it more
Yeah well i mean stuff like warmogs + FH + bv/fon = nonono lol
Zhonya's is perfectly acceptable on basically any AP :p as is mercs. I don't really agree with FH much though. Dfg + blue pot is 25% cdr right then and there. You don't need 200+ armor on veigar lol. And you're more than likely to be the one with blue. I can see where you're coming from (15 dfg + 25 from fh) but i generally choose zhonyas if i want an armor item. It can give you a lot more survivability with the active, and your top and jungle are usually better off with a FH than the veigar thay shouldn't be in the middle of the enemy team to have full use of the aura.
I agree with BV though. Usually i like something like dfg, deathcap, zhonyas, bv, mercs (if low cc or you want more damage early for cheap, sorcs, if no cc and you can't get blue much, i like ionian so ican have 40% cdr wirh blue pot, but that's just me) and void staff as end build, but obviously your items are situational and game dependant. But usually that's what my full build looks like. You'll normally get blue and BV is a good mana source. Lategame veigars passive basically means you can constantly q whenever its off cooldown without running out of mana even without blue. His mana issues are early-game and that can be solved with a good jungler giving you blue.
On December 16 2011 16:07 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: Just max E anyways. That shit's OP for teamfights. you don't really need the 200 extra damage on W from rank 5 compared to 1. Leveling W just gives you 50 damage per rank, whereas leveling E reduces CD by 1 and increases stun by .25.
and the increased chance to hit with a longer stun often gives you higher overall damage anyway
On December 16 2011 15:44 GhostOwl wrote: For the people doubting DFG...I had one game where an opponent Veigar laned better than me (enemy invisible shaco jungler, had to waste gold on vision wards, unlucky, etc) and he went straight for cap and didnt get DFG while I rushed to DFG. By the time my DFG was done, his Veig was about 200 AP higher than mine, especially cause he snowballed and got cap while I didnt. Fight breaks out, and I realized his firepower was either equal or worse than mine, simply because I had that extra DFG power. I realized how important rushing to DFG was
On a side note, if enemy gets mercury treads, your level 1 stun wont last enough to pull off the combo. Always get level 2 stun early if enemy gets tenacity
Veigar Vs Veigar is a completely different scenario than most games, since the other veigar's combo also scales with your deathcap. It's irrelevant for 95% of the games.
Your DFG hits much harder with 300-400 AP (which you'll have if you opened Deathcap) than 100. DFG first is like Lichbane as first item, sure you can do it, but it doesn't give you as much POWER consistently.
In Veig v Veig, rushing BV es #2 and rushing zhonya's es #1, any other first items are inferior.
dfg first also gives u mp5/cdr/gold/10 while u build it if u have to back more often than you would want. 15% cdr is also huge. deathcap being ~200ap loses you out on alot of the side benefits of dfg. seems like people are comparing unique use + 100 ap vs 200 ap
On December 16 2011 21:16 Dandel Ion wrote: Your DFG hits much harder with 300-400 AP (which you'll have if you opened Deathcap) than 100. DFG first is like Lichbane as first item, sure you can do it, but it doesn't give you as much POWER consistently.
it's very different from rushing lichbane. if you rush lichbane with no AP you don't gain any damage on the sheen proc and your damage can actually go down. if you rush DFG with no AP you still nuke for 30% of their HP.
I did the math for that a few pages back in this thread already. DFG will always outdamage deathcap in burst using comparable gold amounts in AP. And that's without including all the side benefits of the CDR and mana regen that you get which allows veigar to farm more and q more often. You generally get deathcap after that anyway.
Deathcap does do more sustained damage, obviously, so you'll hit harder per q, but your full combo will actually be weaker with deathcap than with DFG. In most scenarios DFG is better. DFG is the type of item that's kind of all around good on a champ like veigar. If a tank builds hp it simply does more damage, and it's still good vs squishy's with little hp/resists, since giving you another nuke can sometimes mean you don't need to blow everything on a single person, and can in turn nuke 100->0 TWO enemy champs in a fight. Which is a really awesome ability that veigar has.
The Veigar discussions in this thread make me just facedesk. So I might as well chime in with some of my own ideas:
1. DFG or deathcap as first item is situational, but more and more I am going for deathcap and asking for blue. Unless the person you are laning against is retarded you are not going to kill them in one burst. They will have mr/hp runes/dorans items/catalyst. Either way you will not kill them in one burst. Deathcap gives you the ap to wear them down with q or if you have blue stun w q until they are at an hp that you can burst them down.
2. Rune properly, general runes that work well almost all the time are mpen reds, flat mana regen/level yellows, ap/level blues and flat AP quints. This gives you a lot more power and lets you win more trades while giving you flat regen which combined with your passive and boots start lets you use your skills more and still have movement speed and hp pots. If you are doing ranked you can also have a page for flat mr blues if there are going to be casters that will really give you problems.
3. Starting items should be boots 3 pots, dorans ring or null magic mantle x2 pots. Sapphire crystal if you really want catalyst, though I almost never get it, I would only get it against people like morg or sion who are going to push all day and you are going to need that extra hp and mp sustain. Otherwise, I either get chalice boots against abusive magic dmg opponents like leblanc for unlimited mana and 30 mres or I stack dorans rings. I usually get 2 or 3 dorans rings per game. This gives you the mana you need while having a lot of AP.
4. Smartcast everything except for e. Smartcast q, w, r ignite. Remember ignite has the lowest range at 600, q and r at 650. When you are killing someone stun w ignite then q and r. Part of playing veigar is knowing how much dmg you do. With practice/frequent adding up your dmg from skills you should be able to kill people within some of the last ticks of ignite. You get a feel for it.
5. Everyone says veigar doesn't win his lane and he farms q all game until he blows people up late game. That is false. I would say veigar is actually best mid game and sucks worse late game. Late game everyone has GA/Banshees/Warmogs/QSS and its a lot harder to do anything. Mid game you can q people to death if fed. Veigar doesnt win his lane because people focus too much on q farming when they could be q killing. Stacking early ap from dorans runes and 21 offense masteries can make you really win trades. The only problem with veigar, same with people like twitch is range. Lots of casters like ari brand cass ori have more range which is why you cannot just run straight up to them and q them. Get your jungler to just poke your head in lane or get early blues and with smart play you will be fine. Its mostly the sions and Morganas who push your lane all day long that are more of the problem. Remember if you can q a champion 5 times and kill them you will get 5 AP. If you 5 minions you also get 5 ap, but you could also just use your auto attack. Try to last hit minions close to you with your AA and minions far from you with your baleful to put yourself less in harms way.
6. Ward like shit, you do not want to get ganked. On the same note, know how to bait tower dives because you can get kills out of it once in a while.
7. Go 21/0/9 or 21/9/0. The new offensive masteries take veigars game to a whole new level. Also take the extra +4 dmg to minions with AA instead of havoc. Havoc sucks, but if that extra dmg helps you last hit even 1 more minion that will be better for your game, plus it helps you under your tower. Maximize ignite mastery, using ignite first in a combo (can still fire w first, dmg will be calculated at landing) gives you +5 AP which is like 10 extra dmg on your burst. Try to have at least 100-150 AP every 10 minutes.
On December 17 2011 09:06 HAL9OOO wrote: The Veigar discussions in this thread make me just facedesk. So I might as well chime in with some of my own ideas:
1. DFG or deathcap as first item is situational, but more and more I am going for deathcap and asking for blue. Unless the person you are laning against is retarded you are not going to kill them in one burst. They will have mr/hp runes/dorans items/catalyst. Either way you will not kill them in one burst. Deathcap gives you the ap to wear them down with q or if you have blue stun w q until they are at an hp that you can burst them down.
Not situational at all always DFG never not DFG :3
3. Starting items should be boots 3 pots,yes dorans ringno or null magic mantle x2 pots.no Sapphire crystal if you really want catalyst, though I almost never get it, I would only get it against people like morg or sion who are going to push all day and you are going to need that extra hp and mp sustain. Otherwise, I either get chalice boots against abusive magic dmg opponents like leblanc for unlimited mana and 30 mres or I stack dorans rings. I usually get 2 or 3 dorans rings per game. This gives you the mana you need while having a lot of AP.
Chalice/MR sucks since Veigar is so squishy the MR isn't gonna do anything. Buy the boots and dodge shit. Chalice is still trash on Veigar, even more so now that he doesn't have mana problems.
4. Smartcast everything except for e. Smartcast q, w, r ignite. Remember ignite has the lowest range at 600, q and r at 650. When you are killing someone stun w ignite then q and r. Part of playing veigar is knowing how much dmg you do. With practice/frequent adding up your dmg from skills you should be able to kill people within some of the last ticks of ignite. You get a feel for it.
Why are you even taking ignite on Veigar? WTF -_-
7. Go 21/0/9 or 21/9/0. The new offensive masteries take veigars game to a whole new level. Also take the extra +4 dmg to minions with AA instead of havoc. Havoc sucks, but if that extra dmg helps you last hit even 1 more minion that will be better for your game, plus it helps you under your tower. Maximize ignite mastery, using ignite first in a combo (can still fire w first, dmg will be calculated at landing) gives you +5 AP which is like 10 extra dmg on your burst. Try to have at least 100-150 AP every 10 minutes.
21 Util is superior in every way, it gives everything Veigar wants. Offense is useless since you blow people up anyways you don't need extra damage.
On December 17 2011 11:18 starfries wrote: and what do you get instead of ignite? I can see why it's not as good on him but I just take it by default since he's an AP mid
i would prob take TP, since veig ends up doing a lot of split pushing mid to late game
On December 17 2011 11:15 barbsq wrote: re: 21 util
really? i find that interesting. plz elaborate
Yeah, you take Teleport. Reduced summoner's cooldown + early CDR + early mana regen, buff duration. It's all stuff that helps laning since Veigar gets very little out of defensive tree and you full to zero people without offensive tree anyways. EXP mastery also helps Veigar get past his early levels quicker.
If it wasn't for 4% CDR in offensive tree for more Q farm early I would take 0-9-21 on Veigar tbh.
Veigar split pushing? And yes TP is a good summoner too but its really to stop people from taking your tower or assisting lanes imo not saying take ignite all the time. Plus you can 100 to 0 people with more dmg, util tree just sucks except for decreased cd. And ignite works on veigar, he is still an AP carry and ignite helps secure kills.
On December 17 2011 13:40 HAL9OOO wrote: Veigar split pushing? And yes TP is a good summoner too but its really to stop people from taking your tower or assisting lanes imo not saying take ignite all the time. Plus you can 100 to 0 people with more dmg, util tree just sucks except for decreased cd. And ignite works on veigar, he is still an AP carry and ignite helps secure kills.
Everything here is basically wrong lol.
Veigar is an excellent split pusher since AP does massive damage to towers; TP has a lot of uses; you don't need offensie tree to 100 to 0; ignite is terrible since it has shit range and Veigar would die; Veigar can 100 to 0 without ignite; utility tree gives everything Veigar wants.
I always like to go Tear, Catalyst, RoA/Deathcap. Longer sustain mana wise. I like to harass who I am laning against at lv 5 and try to take their hp lower so I can get a kill at 6. DFG if needed, usually end up getting it. Nice on all champs and CDR.
On December 17 2011 14:24 Sufinsil wrote: I always like to go Tear, Catalyst, RoA/Deathcap. Longer sustain mana wise. I like to harass who I am laning against at lv 5 and try to take their hp lower so I can get a kill at 6. DFG if needed, usually end up getting it. Nice on all champs and CDR.
Flash/Teleport
Personal preference. What works for me.
That build means you do no damage and are basically worthless ;\
On December 17 2011 09:06 HAL9OOO wrote: The Veigar discussions in this thread make me just facedesk. So I might as well chime in with some of my own ideas:
1. DFG or deathcap as first item is situational, but more and more I am going for deathcap and asking for blue. Unless the person you are laning against is retarded you are not going to kill them in one burst. They will have mr/hp runes/dorans items/catalyst. Either way you will not kill them in one burst. Deathcap gives you the ap to wear them down with q or if you have blue stun w q until they are at an hp that you can burst them down.
I think under the same idea, that dfg would allow you to harass someone down in the same time with the cdr and mana regen. You also have a higher cutoff can-burst-kill threshold. I still don't see how deathcap is better than deathfire.
2. Rune properly, general runes that work well almost all the time are mpen reds, flat mana regen/level yellows, ap/level blues and flat AP quints. This gives you a lot more power and lets you win more trades while giving you flat regen which combined with your passive and boots start lets you use your skills more and still have movement speed and hp pots. If you are doing ranked you can also have a page for flat mr blues if there are going to be casters that will really give you problems.
3. Starting items should be boots 3 pots, dorans ring or null magic mantle x2 pots. Sapphire crystal if you really want catalyst, though I almost never get it, I would only get it against people like morg or sion who are going to push all day and you are going to need that extra hp and mp sustain. Otherwise, I either get chalice boots against abusive magic dmg opponents like leblanc for unlimited mana and 30 mres or I stack dorans rings. I usually get 2 or 3 dorans rings per game. This gives you the mana you need while having a lot of AP.
That's smart. Beating leblanc by getting a lot of MR. I'm thinking she could still wear you down a little though unless you got either health pots or health regen. Is it ever a good idea to go FoN first vs Leblanc?
4. Smartcast everything except for e. Smartcast q, w, r ignite. Remember ignite has the lowest range at 600, q and r at 650. When you are killing someone stun w ignite then q and r. Part of playing veigar is knowing how much dmg you do. With practice/frequent adding up your dmg from skills you should be able to kill people within some of the last ticks of ignite. You get a feel for it.
but it's so hard to learn new stuff QQ. Btw there's a way to turn preference onto champions when smartcasting so if you miss, you hit a champion.
5. Everyone says veigar doesn't win his lane and he farms q all game until he blows people up late game. That is false. I would say veigar is actually best mid game and sucks worse late game. Late game everyone has GA/Banshees/Warmogs/QSS and its a lot harder to do anything. Mid game you can q people to death if fed. Veigar doesnt win his lane because people focus too much on q farming when they could be q killing. Stacking early ap from dorans runes and 21 offense masteries can make you really win trades. The only problem with veigar, same with people like twitch is range. Lots of casters like ari brand cass ori have more range which is why you cannot just run straight up to them and q them. Get your jungler to just poke your head in lane or get early blues and with smart play you will be fine. Its mostly the sions and Morganas who push your lane all day long that are more of the problem. Remember if you can q a champion 5 times and kill them you will get 5 AP. If you 5 minions you also get 5 ap, but you could also just use your auto attack. Try to last hit minions close to you with your AA and minions far from you with your baleful to put yourself less in harms way.
thanks for the tips. I don't get why you say to baleful the far minions though, you are ranged so isn't it better to just q whenever necessary, not what gives you like less than 100 more range?
6. Ward like shit, you do not want to get ganked. On the same note, know how to bait tower dives because you can get kills out of it once in a while.
7. Go 21/0/9 or 21/9/0. The new offensive masteries take veigars game to a whole new level. Also take the extra +4 dmg to minions with AA instead of havoc. Havoc sucks, but if that extra dmg helps you last hit even 1 more minion that will be better for your game, plus it helps you under your tower. Maximize ignite mastery, using ignite first in a combo (can still fire w first, dmg will be calculated at landing) gives you +5 AP which is like 10 extra dmg on your burst. Try to have at least 100-150 AP every 10 minutes.
On December 17 2011 11:15 barbsq wrote: re: 21 util
really? i find that interesting. plz elaborate
Yeah, you take Teleport. Reduced summoner's cooldown + early CDR + early mana regen, buff duration. It's all stuff that helps laning since Veigar gets very little out of defensive tree and you full to zero people without offensive tree anyways. EXP mastery also helps Veigar get past his early levels quicker.
If it wasn't for 4% CDR in offensive tree for more Q farm early I would take 0-9-21 on Veigar tbh.
so would you take spell vamp + sage or movespeed,
these are the two trees i came up with for reference + Show Spoiler +
i guess theoretically gold masteries are an option, but then you start digging into other things, specifically the xp and cdr, which doesn't seem worth it.
What are your guy's thoughts on botlane Veigar replacing the ranged ad? From what I have seen, levels 1-4 are a bit rough, and you get zoned a bit at times, but once you hit 6 the enemy ranged ad has a lot of trouble if they get too close.
On December 17 2011 12:33 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
On December 17 2011 11:15 barbsq wrote: re: 21 util
really? i find that interesting. plz elaborate
Yeah, you take Teleport. Reduced summoner's cooldown + early CDR + early mana regen, buff duration. It's all stuff that helps laning since Veigar gets very little out of defensive tree and you full to zero people without offensive tree anyways. EXP mastery also helps Veigar get past his early levels quicker.
If it wasn't for 4% CDR in offensive tree for more Q farm early I would take 0-9-21 on Veigar tbh.
^This one. So movespeed. In fact this is the exact one I use. 3% spellvamp is pretty meh. Sage is pretty meh.
Veigar sucks in bot lane just cause he's squishy, 1-4 lasts longer which is his weak point, and two people can dish out damage faster than 1 person so you get zoned more. Also bot is longer than mid so you don't even get exp if things are going poorly. Veigar can't trade AAs with range ADs. Also Veigar wants levels.
On December 17 2011 20:28 BlackPaladin wrote: jiji rushing DFG on veigar. Win. :>
As for masteries...I dunno. I really like the offense tree way too much. D:
I think the offensive tree could be good for some situations.
If you have an easy lane but the other 4 champs on the enemy team poses a huge threat to you, then you can get away with offensive masteries in lane without the help from utility tree, but then you itemize more defensively (dfg/void/merc/hourglass/other survivability; basically dont invest in hat) and hope that the extra boost from offensive tree can help you do enough damage to kill people. I played a game earlier with DFG/hourglass/merc and utility tree and just couldn't do enough damage. Offensive tree def. would've helped there.
I still think key here is the easy lane part. Despite the buffs, lane bullies still give Veigar a super hard time and utility tree is needed to mitigate that.
I don't think offense is good if you build defensive anyways. I mean the biggest reason to go for offense is the 5% AP and if you have little AP anyways it's not that good.
Err, the 5% AP is OK, but it's also for the 21st point extra % damage to low hp targets and Havoc. That actually does give you a good boost in damage. It's just all the little boost sin AP/damage adding up over the whole tree for that extra 150 damage or so.
Again, it's not significant, but sometimes it could be all right. I still go utility tree almost always anyways, but I'm just trying to think of when I would use offense.
About deathcap vs. dfg, think about it this way. Deathcap is the item every single AP gets because it gives tons of AP and gives you this awesome passive that scales with more AP. Veigar gains AP naturally, by the time you get your deathcap you get a massive power boost. Your jungler should be giving you blue buffs. You can stack the 2 dorans rings for mana and more ap than codex. You get AP for q farm and AP for champ kills so you just see which one would be more effective. Also going into offense gives you more AP, and the 5% extra AP is a big deal. Doing extra dmg to low health targets is like what veigar does, it makes his DM or last q do more dmg. I dont take havoc, cause that is a shit mastery i take the +4 dmg to minions for the times you might have to last hit under towers. Utility is just the worst mastery right now, it has some good perks but for a nuker 21/x/x def seems better.
Just try going 21/0/9 starting boots 3 pots and rushing 2 dorans rings and wards/pots. You can pretty much always get a kill either mid or ganking a side lane or even a jungler at their wraiths with your ward. Try to watch when people go for last hits and tag them with 1 or 2 q's. If you have blue buff you can just harass with your stun w q. If you take ignite, make sure to cast it right after you stun and w them. Then q and r.
On December 17 2011 09:06 HAL9OOO wrote: The Veigar discussions in this thread make me just facedesk. So I might as well chime in with some of my own ideas:
1. DFG or deathcap as first item is situational, but more and more I am going for deathcap and asking for blue. Unless the person you are laning against is retarded you are not going to kill them in one burst. They will have mr/hp runes/dorans items/catalyst. Either way you will not kill them in one burst. Deathcap gives you the ap to wear them down with q or if you have blue stun w q until they are at an hp that you can burst them down.
I think under the same idea, that dfg would allow you to harass someone down in the same time with the cdr and mana regen. You also have a higher cutoff can-burst-kill threshold. I still don't see how deathcap is better than deathfire.
2. Rune properly, general runes that work well almost all the time are mpen reds, flat mana regen/level yellows, ap/level blues and flat AP quints. This gives you a lot more power and lets you win more trades while giving you flat regen which combined with your passive and boots start lets you use your skills more and still have movement speed and hp pots. If you are doing ranked you can also have a page for flat mr blues if there are going to be casters that will really give you problems.
3. Starting items should be boots 3 pots, dorans ring or null magic mantle x2 pots. Sapphire crystal if you really want catalyst, though I almost never get it, I would only get it against people like morg or sion who are going to push all day and you are going to need that extra hp and mp sustain. Otherwise, I either get chalice boots against abusive magic dmg opponents like leblanc for unlimited mana and 30 mres or I stack dorans rings. I usually get 2 or 3 dorans rings per game. This gives you the mana you need while having a lot of AP.
That's smart. Beating leblanc by getting a lot of MR. I'm thinking she could still wear you down a little though unless you got either health pots or health regen. Is it ever a good idea to go FoN first vs Leblanc?
4. Smartcast everything except for e. Smartcast q, w, r ignite. Remember ignite has the lowest range at 600, q and r at 650. When you are killing someone stun w ignite then q and r. Part of playing veigar is knowing how much dmg you do. With practice/frequent adding up your dmg from skills you should be able to kill people within some of the last ticks of ignite. You get a feel for it.
but it's so hard to learn new stuff QQ. Btw there's a way to turn preference onto champions when smartcasting so if you miss, you hit a champion.
5. Everyone says veigar doesn't win his lane and he farms q all game until he blows people up late game. That is false. I would say veigar is actually best mid game and sucks worse late game. Late game everyone has GA/Banshees/Warmogs/QSS and its a lot harder to do anything. Mid game you can q people to death if fed. Veigar doesnt win his lane because people focus too much on q farming when they could be q killing. Stacking early ap from dorans runes and 21 offense masteries can make you really win trades. The only problem with veigar, same with people like twitch is range. Lots of casters like ari brand cass ori have more range which is why you cannot just run straight up to them and q them. Get your jungler to just poke your head in lane or get early blues and with smart play you will be fine. Its mostly the sions and Morganas who push your lane all day long that are more of the problem. Remember if you can q a champion 5 times and kill them you will get 5 AP. If you 5 minions you also get 5 ap, but you could also just use your auto attack. Try to last hit minions close to you with your AA and minions far from you with your baleful to put yourself less in harms way.
thanks for the tips. I don't get why you say to baleful the far minions though, you are ranged so isn't it better to just q whenever necessary, not what gives you like less than 100 more range?
6. Ward like shit, you do not want to get ganked. On the same note, know how to bait tower dives because you can get kills out of it once in a while.
7. Go 21/0/9 or 21/9/0. The new offensive masteries take veigars game to a whole new level. Also take the extra +4 dmg to minions with AA instead of havoc. Havoc sucks, but if that extra dmg helps you last hit even 1 more minion that will be better for your game, plus it helps you under your tower. Maximize ignite mastery, using ignite first in a combo (can still fire w first, dmg will be calculated at landing) gives you +5 AP which is like 10 extra dmg on your burst. Try to have at least 100-150 AP every 10 minutes.
You never get FoN on veigar ever. FoN is for people who have lots of health and want MR as well. For squishy people your MR item of choice should be banshees since it gives extra health or QSS if its really the cc killing you. Chalice is not the best item but its what I usually end up going vs people like leblanc, combined with 21/9/0. You still need hp pots. I say to baleful the minions farther away from you because your baleful has a higher range than your AA. Good players want to harass you anytime they have a chance so dont let them get a range advantage by you overextending trying to AA a minion. Honestly, q farming is overrated too. Too many veigars think that they will win the game by q farming. Veigar is not nasus. Better farming in general will help you win because of the gold advantage, but using q to zone your opponent is something I just don't see many veigars do. Smartcasting is also a must on veigar because your nuke has to be done in the least time possible, I have had leblancs dash to me to get QR combos off and smartcast q r kills her as she dashes back, have to be fast.
On December 06 2011 05:07 koreasilver wrote: I dunno. Even if you deal like a 1000 damage with a spell you'll only get 15 more damage, which doesn't really end up being much at all because damage like that comes from burst, not sustained damage. I feel like on mages that have trouble last hitting under a tower early on like Swain would benefit more using the points elsewhere.
I find the more interesting way to look at it as like, say your ult does 200 damage at level 1 with 0.8 AP scaling. If you have havoc, it will be better than a point in mental force even at 0 AP and only 1 level of the skill. I guess I'm just saying mental force is bad and havoc is typically worth more than it on spells.
so, i guess if you're getting the + minion dmg, then drop some points from mental force to put into havoc.
RE: dfg vs dcap, i think one of the bigger factors is that you have 3 damaging spells, 2 of which are on fairly high CD, and one of which is pretty dependent on your stun, which is also fairly high cd, so having a 4th nuke is very valuable. I feel that he's a high-cooldown combo champion, and therefore would benefit much more from an increase in dmg for a single unload, which dfg provides, compared to increased dmg over a longer period of time. Anyways, that's just my take on it.
9/0/21 is the way to go at the moment for Veigar. I only take 21/0/9 when I know I'm facing someone I can Q spam easily (eg.If I solo top vs Melee) Atlanta has told me this is what he does in Veigar too (Q spam early using AP Runes and Masteries, farm AP with Q later)
You want DFG over Deathcap because it gives you more burst damage, and lets you threaten kills even on full hp champions for the rest of the game. In fact, I don't even buy Deathcap in 30% of my Veigar games. As long as you can kill a squishy in one combo, that's all you need.
Other than Doran -> DFG, I've also had success with my Fake Locket build. Philo -> Doran -> Revolver -> Pick for infinite HP/MP =]
On December 18 2011 03:06 Yiruru wrote: In fact, I don't even buy Deathcap in 30% of my Veigar games. As long as you can kill a squishy in one combo, that's all you need.
^This this this a million times this. More people need to realize this.
Yes, Deathcap is the best AP item in the game. HOWEVER, the goal of an AP carry is not to run around with the most AP possible, the role is to threaten KILLs. Having a Deathcap is irrelevant if people know you're useless after you blow your combo and they're at 40 percent health, and laugh at you as you spent 3600 on an "useless" item. The reason you get Deathcap is to get more damage, but if you don't NEED the extra damage, why bother?
On December 18 2011 03:06 Yiruru wrote: In fact, I don't even buy Deathcap in 30% of my Veigar games. As long as you can kill a squishy in one combo, that's all you need.
^This this this a million times this. More people need to realize this.
Yes, Deathcap is the best AP item in the game. HOWEVER, the goal of an AP carry is not to run around with the most AP possible, the role is to threaten KILLs. Having a Deathcap is irrelevant if people know you're useless after you blow your combo and they're at 40 percent health, and laugh at you as you spent 3600 on an "useless" item. The reason you get Deathcap is to get more damage, but if you don't NEED the extra damage, why bother?
I always go for lich bane with veigar and so deathcap is much more effective for that situation.
Lich Bane is terrible on Veigar ;d Super expensive, and gives you a passive that puts you in position to die while using it. You're also building no armor pen so the damage is diminished.
On December 18 2011 07:23 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: Lich Bane is terrible on Veigar ;d Super expensive, and gives you a passive that puts you in position to die while using it. You're also building no armor pen so the damage is diminished.
I read this as:
Lich bane is awesome on veigar, a little expensive but gives you a passive that lets you escape danger easier. They're also building magic Resist against you so otherwise your damage is diminished.
On December 18 2011 07:23 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: Lich Bane is terrible on Veigar ;d Super expensive, and gives you a passive that puts you in position to die while using it. You're also building no armor pen so the damage is diminished.
I read this as:
Lich bane is awesome on veigar, a little expensive but gives you a passive that lets you escape danger easier. They're also building magic Resist against you so otherwise your damage is diminished.
I read that as you have no clue what you're talking about and don't understand the game at all. =)
Lich bane is horrible on burst casters. Only good on champs like akali, sion, TF, etc who actually benefit from the proc due to their kits/roles.
On December 18 2011 07:23 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: Lich Bane is terrible on Veigar ;d Super expensive, and gives you a passive that puts you in position to die while using it. You're also building no armor pen so the damage is diminished.
I read this as:
Lich bane is awesome on veigar, a little expensive but gives you a passive that lets you escape danger easier. They're also building magic Resist against you so otherwise your damage is diminished.
lichbane is a maybe as a semi - lulz 6th item. how does it help you escape danger? not to mention, they're not going to exclusively build mres JUST because enemy team has a veigar, typically mr and armor are balanced, and while it's really easy to itemize for mpen (hint voidstaff) it's hard as fuck to itemize for apen as a caster, which means your magic dmg is going to do an arseload more than any physical dmg you deal. It's the same idea as Last Whisper vs Bloodrazor on AD carries, to somehow 'try' to counter armor with bloodrazor procs, which is just dumb.
On December 17 2011 14:24 Sufinsil wrote: I always like to go Tear, Catalyst, RoA/Deathcap. Longer sustain mana wise. I like to harass who I am laning against at lv 5 and try to take their hp lower so I can get a kill at 6. DFG if needed, usually end up getting it. Nice on all champs and CDR.
Flash/Teleport
Personal preference. What works for me.
That build means you do no damage and are basically worthless ;\
I stay even or ahead from farming AP. I have longer sustain on the field.
By level 6 2nd blue would have spawned. You would have it and not need so much mana from items. No point to invest in it. Invest into damage instead(dorans and or dfg). Dorans gives mana regen along with your passive + an hp buffer with some added AP. By the time your teams third blue is up you'll generally be high enough level to be able to have enough mana regen from your passive to q almost constantly even without blue.
Holy shit. Just played probably my best game as Veigar yet (I am new to the game).
Just got excited and wanted to brag about it.
To any Veigar experts, once I got all the items I usually get, I didn't know what to spend my money on, so I ended up stacking deathcaps as you can see. Is there something better I could've poured my gold into?
Choose 2: Hourglass, QSS, Banshee Veil, Guardian Angel (roughly in order of prevalence, though obviously depends on situation each game)
Order of importance: Red Pot, Oracles, Blue Pot, Green Pot(lol)
With masteries/Blue/DFG, you should be max CDR anyways, and Blue pot adds minimal additional AP to what should be massive AP in the full item situation we're describing here. Earlier in the game usually Blue Pot is preferable, but again, depends. End game 200 HP > 40 AP for Veigar tbh. Oracles is good if you're maxed, relieves some burden for Support so they can build aura items.
I'm noob but would it be viable to skip mercury treads and go sorcerer's followed by a spellblade, if you need the tenacity? The spellblade doesn't seem very expensive.
Also, I am a bit confused about the deathcap situation.
On December 18 2011 07:16 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
On December 18 2011 03:06 Yiruru wrote: In fact, I don't even buy Deathcap in 30% of my Veigar games. As long as you can kill a squishy in one combo, that's all you need.
^This this this a million times this. More people need to realize this.
Yes, Deathcap is the best AP item in the game. HOWEVER, the goal of an AP carry is not to run around with the most AP possible, the role is to threaten KILLs. Having a Deathcap is irrelevant if people know you're useless after you blow your combo and they're at 40 percent health, and laugh at you as you spent 3600 on an "useless" item. The reason you get Deathcap is to get more damage, but if you don't NEED the extra damage, why bother?
I don't get the bolded part. Please clarify for me. If I burst down a hero and they are left at 40% health, then I need more damage and deathcap is the way to go but if I can kill anyone without a deathcap, then I can focus on more defensive items because I will stack AP through my Q?
Moreover, any tips on positioning in 5v5 teamfights in order to get the stun off and not get jumped by Pantheon, Xin Zhao, Lee Sin and the likes? Thanks!
DFG is at all points of the game more burst damage for lower cost than deathcap. If you have hat but no DFG you can burst someone down to like 40% health and then they live and you won't get another chance to kill them if they just run to the back without you running through all their bruisers to try to get to them. The point was on DFG vs. Deathcap. If you need more AP after DFG by all means get the hat.
If anything you get Sorcs early game and then sell for Mercs, you never gets Mercs then sell for Sorcs. Well, i never do anyways @@ Spellblade is a very cost inefficient item, and also slot inefficient since you're going to be limited by slots later on anyways. Don't really like the item. Mercs give more tenacity anyways and the added bonus of some MR. Spellblade is probably one of the worst items in the game lol.
On December 23 2011 22:44 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: DFG is at all points of the game more burst damage for lower cost than deathcap. If you have hat but no DFG you can burst someone down to like 40% health and then they live and you won't get another chance to kill them if they just run to the back without you running through all their bruisers to try to get to them. The point was on DFG vs. Deathcap. If you need more AP after DFG by all means get the hat.
If anything you get Sorcs early game and then sell for Mercs, you never gets Mercs then sell for Sorcs. Well, i never do anyways @@ Spellblade is a very cost inefficient item, and also slot inefficient since you're going to be limited by slots later on anyways. Don't really like the item. Mercs give more tenacity anyways and the added bonus of some MR. Spellblade is probably one of the worst items in the game lol.
Er. All the tenacity items give 35 now, for the record.
has anyone else noticed that its almost impossible to run oom on veigar now? the way his passive works the tiny reduction in mana costs seems to of made a huge difference D:
Well at my low level I run oom pretty quickly tbh. Especially early game, but maybe that's because I don't build mana anymore after the patch. I like to get around 70 AP farm before my first b with veigar, if i can allow it
See that is something I have been wondering. Pre-patch, I ran ToG into Archangel's, but now I just feel it isn't necessary, and there are much more viable items for those precious 6 spots. Maybe I should go back to getting tear, but I don't like it, especially when I can go back easily since I take flash/teleport. in most of my games I do get RoA, so the extra mana is nice for spamming meter to farm minion waves, but that is one of the only mana items I get.
Was playing a normal 5-man premade yesterday, and after carrying through the mid-game as jungle Rammus, our Veigar just took over late game and with DFG people were dropping like flies. He even full combo'd the enemy Shen 100-0 when he had FoN Warmogs and Mercs boots o_0
granted he could only pull off the full full combo every 1 minute but even a single Q-W thrown into the mix would nearly destroy a squishy
dat burst is too incredible. Also taunt + circle-stun is too good, whichever way you do it.
On December 23 2011 20:36 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: Ideal Veigar end game items:
Core (4): DFG, Void Staff, Deathcap, Merc Treads
Choose 2: Hourglass, QSS, Banshee Veil, Guardian Angel (roughly in order of prevalence, though obviously depends on situation each game)
Order of importance: Red Pot, Oracles, Blue Pot, Green Pot(lol)
With masteries/Blue/DFG, you should be max CDR anyways, and Blue pot adds minimal additional AP to what should be massive AP in the full item situation we're describing here. Earlier in the game usually Blue Pot is preferable, but again, depends. End game 200 HP > 40 AP for Veigar tbh. Oracles is good if you're maxed, relieves some burden for Support so they can build aura items.
On December 25 2011 02:30 FieryBalrog wrote: Was playing a normal 5-man premade yesterday, and after carrying through the mid-game as jungle Rammus, our Veigar just took over late game and with DFG people were dropping like flies. He even full combo'd the enemy Shen 100-0 when he had FoN Warmogs and Mercs boots o_0
granted he could only pull off the full full combo every 1 minute but even a single Q-W thrown into the mix would nearly destroy a squishy
dat burst is too incredible. Also taunt + circle-stun is too good, whichever way you do it.
I agree with Fiery Balrog, DFG has always been a viable option for Veigar. I typically grab it for a beefy opposing team, I would just advise using DFG as your opener or else the affect is not nearly as great.
So a couple weeks later...what's the conclusion on openers? Is Meki -> Tears of the Goddess still pretty good? Boots+3 -> Dorans, Dorans? Boots+3 -> Tears of the Goddess? All match-up dependent?
Okay, I was pretty confident in my veigar skills until yesterday. Usually, I'd be able to beat down most mids easily, farm well, keep myself from getting ganked and get some kills/assists in other lanes too. Then I faced a kennen mid (this was the like the first time in a couple months strangely enough) and I felt completely useless. I couldn't harrass him because he would just outrange me and do more damage than I could do before I could even get my bale on him. Once he got his ult he could tower dive me+ignite+other skills and kill me while still being able to get away if I didn't have my ult. I really had no idea what to do vs him and ended up underfarmed for most of the game, never reaching deathcap. Is there any advice as to what opening I should do against him or how I should play against him? Would be much appreciated
On March 03 2012 01:16 Dark_Chill wrote: Okay, I was pretty confident in my veigar skills until yesterday. Usually, I'd be able to beat down most mids easily, farm well, keep myself from getting ganked and get some kills/assists in other lanes too. Then I faced a kennen mid (this was the like the first time in a couple months strangely enough) and I felt completely useless. I couldn't harrass him because he would just outrange me and do more damage than I could do before I could even get my bale on him. Once he got his ult he could tower dive me+ignite+other skills and kill me while still being able to get away if I didn't have my ult. I really had no idea what to do vs him and ended up underfarmed for most of the game, never reaching deathcap. Is there any advice as to what opening I should do against him or how I should play against him? Would be much appreciated
Don't vs kennen. He is a douche. Lol but realistically I find kennen mid to be really hard to lane against. My best advice is to keep moving and avoid as many of his skillshot as possible if you do that you should be able to beat him
One thing that annoys me about veigar is that late game no matter how bad he plays he still does amazing damage on AP champions that do well because of his ultimate. Hard champion to play though. And btw, he IS evil xDD
On March 03 2012 02:03 ODKStevez wrote: One thing that annoys me about veigar is that late game no matter how bad he plays he still does amazing damage on AP champions that do well because of his ultimate. Hard champion to play though. And btw, he IS evil xDD
i find that late game he is so strong mostly because of aoe stun
such a strong ability in team fights, although it is true, no matter how bad you laned you can still 1 shot enemy aps
I like veig. I generally max W and the stun. I like the range of the two spells and with a long stun, as long as the enemy mid doesn't build tenacity, I feel like I can always hit them with my W in time. I get a lot of mana regen so this stun W combo is possible. W also lets me push the lane which seems really important since maxing a single target nuke as an AP carry makes me one of the slowest pushers in the game.
The lack of escapes really sucks so I ward and stay on the side of the ward. I really have to be careful that I know I can one shot my enemy, since veig's sustained damage is quite low, but when the enemy team is very squishy, veigar just shines.
You should Max your Q because you use it the most. Then I get like to get Stun to lvl 2-3 before i get 1 pt in W. W isn't any good if you can't land stun and also when you get W at lvl 8 you'll have alot of AP so it hurts with the 1:1 ratio to start.
On May 07 2012 17:56 juked wrote: You should Max your Q because you use it the most. Then I get like to get Stun to lvl 2-3 before i get 1 pt in W. W isn't any good if you can't land stun and also when you get W at lvl 8 you'll have alot of AP so it hurts with the 1:1 ratio to start.
I know. But Q has such a short range that I often doubt I can use it to trade effectively (in that sense it's just as reliant on the stun) and it can't push as well as w. Just using it on creeps uses a lot of mana, but it's fine if the enemy lets me farm due to veigar's passive.
You should watch Nyjacky play Veigar on his stream a bit. Ever since I started copying his playstyle a bit, my Veigar got a lot better without even playing it. He maxes Q>W>E, with a point in stun at level 2 usually. Rarely use Q to farm in lane, mostly to harass and when they get low he finishes them with a combo.
Due to Veigars passive you have mana to keep on harassing with Q. Stun and W takes too much mana early on.
On May 08 2012 20:44 h3r1n6 wrote: Rarely use Q to farm in lane
Due to Veigars passive you have mana to keep on harassing with Q.
Veigar gets +1 ap for each last hit with Q.
I don't understand how this makes sense. If you want to maximize AP, shouldn't use try to last hit as much as possible with Q? I mean yeah if there's no available minions to farm with Q, then yeah I understand using it to harrass... but really?
On May 08 2012 20:44 h3r1n6 wrote: You should watch Nyjacky play Veigar on his stream a bit. Ever since I started copying his playstyle a bit, my Veigar got a lot better without even playing it. He maxes Q>W>E, with a point in stun at level 2 usually. Rarely use Q to farm in lane, mostly to harass and when they get low he finishes them with a combo.
Due to Veigars passive you have mana to keep on harassing with Q. Stun and W takes too much mana early on.
NYjacky style is only for very high level games or tournaments where people play very safe and there arent opportunities for lane kills and winning lane while Q farming.
I would never ever play this style in soloque, as you can easily farm your Q and win your lane at the same time with a bit of skill.
Its like Reginald Karthus maxing wall over defile in tournaments. Its a very specific strategy where he knows he wont have any opportunity to get kills in lane without serious ganks, and is sacrificing damage for added teamfight utility and support of these rare big plays. Playing like this at anything less than a top level is just dumb, you will have many many opportunities to win lane and get 1v1 kills in soloque.
On May 08 2012 20:44 h3r1n6 wrote: You should watch Nyjacky play Veigar on his stream a bit. Ever since I started copying his playstyle a bit, my Veigar got a lot better without even playing it. He maxes Q>W>E, with a point in stun at level 2 usually. Rarely use Q to farm in lane, mostly to harass and when they get low he finishes them with a combo.
Due to Veigars passive you have mana to keep on harassing with Q. Stun and W takes too much mana early on.
NYjacky style is only for very high level games or tournaments where people play very safe and there arent opportunities for lane kills and winning lane while Q farming.
I would never ever play this style in soloque, as you can easily farm your Q and win your lane at the same time with a bit of skill.
Its like Reginald Karthus maxing wall over defile in tournaments. Its a very specific strategy where he knows he wont have any opportunity to get kills in lane without serious ganks, and is sacrificing damage for added teamfight utility and support of these rare big plays. Playing like this at anything less than a top level is just dumb, you will have many many opportunities to win lane and get 1v1 kills in soloque.
After level 5 or so, if you CAN hit the enemy champion with Q, you'd obviously choose to hit them with Q instead of farming a minion with it. Chunking an enemy champion better than 1 AP.
On May 08 2012 20:44 h3r1n6 wrote: You should watch Nyjacky play Veigar on his stream a bit. Ever since I started copying his playstyle a bit, my Veigar got a lot better without even playing it. He maxes Q>W>E, with a point in stun at level 2 usually. Rarely use Q to farm in lane, mostly to harass and when they get low he finishes them with a combo.
Due to Veigars passive you have mana to keep on harassing with Q. Stun and W takes too much mana early on.
HIGHLY, HIGHLY disagree with not farming with Q.
1 AP is worth 20 gold --> double the farm. More than GP's Parrrley ever was.
On May 08 2012 20:44 h3r1n6 wrote: You should watch Nyjacky play Veigar on his stream a bit. Ever since I started copying his playstyle a bit, my Veigar got a lot better without even playing it. He maxes Q>W>E, with a point in stun at level 2 usually. Rarely use Q to farm in lane, mostly to harass and when they get low he finishes them with a combo.
Due to Veigars passive you have mana to keep on harassing with Q. Stun and W takes too much mana early on.
NYjacky style is only for very high level games or tournaments where people play very safe and there arent opportunities for lane kills and winning lane while Q farming.
I would never ever play this style in soloque, as you can easily farm your Q and win your lane at the same time with a bit of skill.
Its like Reginald Karthus maxing wall over defile in tournaments. Its a very specific strategy where he knows he wont have any opportunity to get kills in lane without serious ganks, and is sacrificing damage for added teamfight utility and support of these rare big plays. Playing like this at anything less than a top level is just dumb, you will have many many opportunities to win lane and get 1v1 kills in soloque.
After level 5 or so, if you CAN hit the enemy champion with Q, you'd obviously choose to hit them with Q instead of farming a minion with it. Chunking an enemy champion better than 1 AP.
If you can hit them with Q and not get chunked yourself even harder
you generally want to trade with Q because of the way your burst functions like at the very least you want to start trading at level 5 if not earlier so you can prepare for level 6 burst farming with Q before first buy generally doesn't result in significant AP gains - like 15 at most? - while it will open you up to extreme harass every time your Q is down - its not so much for the damage as much as you will be extremely vulnerable TO damage, making you unable to hold lane control
On May 09 2012 01:52 Navi wrote: you generally want to trade with Q because of the way your burst functions like at the very least you want to start trading at level 5 if not earlier so you can prepare for level 6 burst farming with Q before first buy generally doesn't result in significant AP gains - like 15 at most? - while it will open you up to extreme harass every time your Q is down - its not so much for the damage as much as you will be extremely vulnerable TO damage, making you unable to hold lane control
^
Every time I see a Veigar use Q to farm, I just go all in. You trade me 1 AP for 100-200 damage; I'll take it.
On May 09 2012 01:52 Navi wrote: you generally want to trade with Q because of the way your burst functions like at the very least you want to start trading at level 5 if not earlier so you can prepare for level 6 burst farming with Q before first buy generally doesn't result in significant AP gains - like 15 at most? - while it will open you up to extreme harass every time your Q is down - its not so much for the damage as much as you will be extremely vulnerable TO damage, making you unable to hold lane control
^
Every time I see a Veigar use Q to farm, I just go all in. You trade me 1 AP for 100-200 damage; I'll take it.
Prett much. Ever since I have adapted Nyjackys style, I win more lanes and more games in the few games of Veigar I play. I'm not saying it's the key to Veigar, but if you never played him like that you should give it a try. It makes Veigar a whole lot more fun for me.
On May 08 2012 22:44 sob3k wrote: Its like Reginald Karthus maxing wall over defile in tournaments. Its a very specific strategy where he knows he wont have any opportunity to get kills in lane without serious ganks, and is sacrificing damage for added teamfight utility and support of these rare big plays. Playing like this at anything less than a top level is just dumb, you will have many many opportunities to win lane and get 1v1 kills in soloque.
I don't really want to turn this off-topic, but I thought maxing wall on Karthus second is pretty standard? Karthus is pretty much one of my main champions and I see little reason to max defile early when the slow and magic pen goes up nicely on wall (80% slow imba). Catching the opponent in lane with wall is the best way to get some good and safe damage on them and maxing it makes that way easier.
I'd put less points in Wall when I can't catch my oponent out with it (Kassadin for example blinks and/or silences me so i can't use the effects of the wall) or I don't get blue buff and am in need of the mana regen on defile.
First few levels using q to farm is fine. Generally you want to play really passive early. But lvl 5+ should always try to trade if the enemy gets into range. Your burst is much higher and you have very high kill potential vs AP mids at lvl 6-7.
On May 09 2012 01:52 Navi wrote: you generally want to trade with Q because of the way your burst functions like at the very least you want to start trading at level 5 if not earlier so you can prepare for level 6 burst farming with Q before first buy generally doesn't result in significant AP gains - like 15 at most? - while it will open you up to extreme harass every time your Q is down - its not so much for the damage as much as you will be extremely vulnerable TO damage, making you unable to hold lane control
^
Every time I see a Veigar use Q to farm, I just go all in. You trade me 1 AP for 100-200 damage; I'll take it.
Prett much. Ever since I have adapted Nyjackys style, I win more lanes and more games in the few games of Veigar I play. I'm not saying it's the key to Veigar, but if you never played him like that you should give it a try. It makes Veigar a whole lot more fun for me.
On May 08 2012 22:44 sob3k wrote: Its like Reginald Karthus maxing wall over defile in tournaments. Its a very specific strategy where he knows he wont have any opportunity to get kills in lane without serious ganks, and is sacrificing damage for added teamfight utility and support of these rare big plays. Playing like this at anything less than a top level is just dumb, you will have many many opportunities to win lane and get 1v1 kills in soloque.
I don't really want to turn this off-topic, but I thought maxing wall on Karthus second is pretty standard? Karthus is pretty much one of my main champions and I see little reason to max defile early when the slow and magic pen goes up nicely on wall (80% slow imba). Catching the opponent in lane with wall is the best way to get some good and safe damage on them and maxing it makes that way easier.
I'd put less points in Wall when I can't catch my oponent out with it (Kassadin for example blinks and/or silences me so i can't use the effects of the wall) or I don't get blue buff and am in need of the mana regen on defile.
Its not standard, Defile gives you huge damage and better sustain while 40 from wall is usually plenty to do what you need.
After I noticed Veigar's q ratio, I began getting mr quints instead of ap quints. I recently faced a Kennen, and by playing really aggresive with q and farming with auto, I actually managed to trade evenly with him and blow him up at level 6. I used to use q to farm, but I realized that it has pretty good base damage and I could farm whenever I made them back or had them zoned. You could zone especially well since Veigar stun makes him really hard to gank.
I tried going chalice first again on Veigar. With mana regen yellows and purples you can constantly spam just Q at level 9 with almost no mana. It seems like a decent option for more free AP.
Still lacks pushing power. It's also a sacrifice in terms of your burst.
On December 16 2012 14:49 obesechicken13 wrote: I tried going chalice first again on Veigar. With mana regen yellows and purples you can constantly spam just Q at level 9 with almost no mana. It seems like a decent option for more free AP.
Still lacks pushing power. It's also a sacrifice in terms of your burst.
On December 16 2012 14:49 obesechicken13 wrote: I tried going chalice first again on Veigar. With mana regen yellows and purples you can constantly spam just Q at level 9 with almost no mana. It seems like a decent option for more free AP.
Still lacks pushing power. It's also a sacrifice in terms of your burst.
Press W -> best lane shove NA?
My problem with max W is the relatively longer cooldown on W and the fact that it is difficult to land. Even with the stun, people running merc treads, cleanse, and QSS can escape you.
On December 17 2012 14:45 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: you change whether you level w or e based on matchup/how the game is going/your goals
you don't have to rigidly adhere to maxing one over the other...
I know, but in this meta, you know how the matchup is going to go based on the picks. Mid pushes you to your tower, you have to max W, you can't kill anyone until mid game when your Q starts getting maxed. That's why Veigar doesn't get picked.