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TRUNDLE: The Cursed Troll
Trundle is a strange champion. His skills were created in my mind to force you to use it in sub-optimal positions and create sub-optimal choices as far as itemization. I don't know if this was done on purpose or not, because he's a troll and was marketed as a response to all the trolling done on the official forums. If so, job well done!
Trundle is a melee attack damage based character with CC and inherent tankiness to his skillset. His strengths lie in mobility and regeneration. He can initiate mildly well in the fact that he will survive, but his initiation skills are very visible and not as "hard" as crystal arrow, roots, or taunts. His ult requires precise use or it will have a very mild impact on battle, and a close eye has to be kept on his contaminate cooldown to be able to get out of fights when needed.
Trundle is a jungler during early game, plain and simple. He's ok in a lane; but his ability to deal a large amount of damage to a single target plus his great ganking skills lead to him being a better jungler. If done well you can keep up in level with the solo lanes as well as stay near full health after the first pass due to his passive.
Trundle guides: NeoIllusions - Jungle Trundle :: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=175566#5
Trundle The Cursed Troll's Abilities Patch v1.0.0.106 Decompose (Innate): Whenever an enemy unit near Trundle dies, he heals for 2% (lvl 1) / 3% (lvl 5) / 4% (lvl 9) / 5% (lvl 12) / 6% (lvl 15) of their maximum health.
Notes: This passive is extremely powerful and will keep you in fights as well as let you rejoin fights all game long. Its very deceptive in it's healing capabilities like Evelynn's ultimate.
Rabid Bite (Active): Trundle bites his opponent instead of attacking for his next standard attack, dealing physical damage. This attack increases Trundle's attack damage for 8 seconds, with his opponent losing half of this amount.
- Cooldown: 4 seconds
- Cost: 40 Mana
Physical Damage: 30 / 45 / 60 / 75 / 90 (+0.8/0.9/1.0/1.1/1.2 per Attack Damage) Bonus Attack Damage: 20 / 25 / 30 / 35 / 40
Notes: This is obviously your bread and butter damage spell. It resets the attack counter when you use the spell and then modifies the next attack to do extra damage. This means it should be used immediately after an attack. His normal attack animation is very short and hard to cancel, so practice using this very early in the animation for a double hit. This skill also applies on-hit effects, so items that do extra damage with quick stacks help here. Contaminate (Active): Trundle infects a target location with his curse for 8 seconds, gaining attack speed, movement speed, and crowd control reduction while on it.
- Cooldown: 15 seconds
- Cost: 60 Mana
Movement Speed: 20 / 25 / 30 / 35 / 40 Attack Speed: 20 / 30 / 40 / 50 / 60 Crowd Control Reduction: 20 / 25 / 30 / 35 / 40
Notes: This is the skill that lets you dance around tower divers, take towers quickly, and completely own the battlefield in team fights. Use this all the time. It is really really good and worth getting CDR just for this one spell.
Pillar of Filth (Active): Trundle creates a plagued beacon at a target location, which becomes impassable terrain and slows all nearby enemy units.
Cooldown: 23 / 20 / 17 / 14 / 11 seconds Slow: 25 / 30 / 35 / 40 / 45
Notes: This is what turns Trundle into a modern internet troll. The Pile of Poop, Stack of S***, Pillar of Filth, whatever you want to call it. It creates a small instant wall that cannot be crossed by both enemy and friend. Around the wall is an area where a champion is slowed walking through. This effect obviously only happens to the enemy. You CAN wall yourself off if you place it wrong running through the jungle, so be careful! As this skill is a 2 part CC, it can be used as practice for anivia lovers without making your team rage as much at how bad you are with it compared to ice wall
Agony (Active): Trundle immediately steals his target’s health and a percentage of their armor and magic resistance. Over the next 6 seconds the amount of health, armor, and magic resistance stolen is doubled.
Cooldown: 80 / 70 / 60 seconds Health Stolen (Magic Damage): 100 / 175 / 250 (+0.6 per Ability Power) Armor & Magic Resist: 15% / 20% / 25%
Notes: Trundles ultimate is extremely difficult to use mid fight compared to other debuffs and is the root of the problem with trundle's overall design. Riot is trolling us plain and simple with this one spell: Flat HP steal means you want to cast it on their carry/assassin/mage to do a larger percentile based attack. But a percentage based armor/mres steal means you want to cast it on their purest tank. Usually the guy with the most HP. See the problem? One thing remains constant though. You want to cast this on the guy that needs to die that everyone is going to focus that isn't dying fast. Casting it on a fed Annie isn't going to be much value as she dies so quick anyway, but the brave pantheon with 20/20/20? Definite target.
Runes
Reds: Armor pen. -- No question here. Attack speed is trundles bane. The attack animation on his Q is so long that with too much aspeed it will actually slow down your dps. More on this later in the items section. Yellows: flat armor, mp5/lvl, dodge. All good choices. Personally I'm leaning towards dodge seals while getting nimbleness and ninja tabi as the main source of damage mitigation against physical carries and tanks. Currently though I'm running flat armor here for a good early game. Blues: mp5/lvl, mres/lvl, CDR/lvl all good choices. Depends on your seals too. Trundle doesn't use much mana late game so mp5/lvl blues is more than enough past level 9, compared to Olaf who needs a blue buff crutch until level 11 for max dps. Quints: APen quints are ideal. Definitely get these on your trundle if you can. Otherwise, move speed is a good second choice. He really gains nothing from an extra 100HP so HP quints are out.
Masteries
Trundle is a mildly annoying champion to build masteries for, but I think 1/8/21 will end up being the build of choice. Mitigation is nice, but he needs it late game, not early, and the defensive tree just doesn't give that option to put more points in it. my personal 1/8/21 build: http://www.fieldsofjustice.com/mastery/#ZuPqlxaPZaywyanlly This could actually be adjusted a lot depending on how trundles passive interacts with Perseverance. I just don't know!
A completely seperate choice, would be some variation of a dodge build. Again, Trundle doesn't need early game mitigation, so this will look very strange. Try it out and adjust as needed! 1/12/17 :: SoS + Dodge http://www.fieldsofjustice.com/mastery/#ZuPqlyawyqZlywyanl
Item Overview
This section is going to be a bit different than most guides. I'm going to give lists of items that trundle COULD use one way or another and list the pros/cons for that one item. There will be no builds per say, it will be up to you to figure out what works! (and hopefully you post here for me to link to )
Cloth+5 vs. unconventional start
Trundle is one of those champions that could start longsword + 1 hp pot. If doing this though, you'll need to work on a different path (like wraith jacking). It might be feasible with more specialized jungle runes (like attack speed reds and quints / flat armor yellows) to do blue first. Test it out!
Otherwise, just go with the standard cloth armor + 5 hp pots. This builds into one of the two starting items for any jungler.
HoG vs. Madred's razor
Both of these are equally important. Health scales much better with trundles ultimate than armor/mres, so grabbing HP early is always nice. Razor though lets you RIP through the jungle faster than anyone else in the game.
Bloodrazor vs. wriggles lantern
Lantern is the obvious first choice on trundle, especially if you went razor first (which you should). Its cheap, gives lifesteal, and gives a free ward.
Bloodrazor is an ok choice for trundle mainly because his Q lets you double proc the % damage. Still, attack speed is not trundles friend so unlike warwick this item is no where near core.
high damage vs. aspeed
Like I said above, attack speed is not trundle's friend. There comes a point in gaining attack speed where the super slow animation from his rabid bite will cause you to lose damage output over time. Grabbing a little aspeed (like from runes or 1 item like bloodrazor) is ok, but definitely don't go anywhere near a second item. You want to do a huge amount of damage in your first two hits. (normal+Q) so stack attack damage if anything.
GB/B build
Ghostblade lets you kill towers. That's basically it. It doesn't synergize with your skills as much as other champions though so its fun but not optimal.
Bloodthirster / Black Cleaver / frozen mallet
Thirster is just a bit too much lifesteal over your wriggles and passive. You really won't need it. Better to focus on real mitigation with armor/mres than lifesteal.
Black cleaver is an excellent choice for trundle. It gives high damage, a tiny bit of aspeed, and a cool proc that works well with trundles ultimate against single targets.
Frozen mallet though is the best of the three. It gives a huge HP pool, a bit of damage, and a great slow to keep them in the fight. This should probably be your go-to item for damage.
Tank items
Once you get your damage set, which should really only be one or two items, you should definitely just start building tanky. You're going to be in the middle of everything pissing off everyone with your pillar so they will want to target you. Grab anything with bonus HP, so banshee's veil and randuins would be the first two choices with maybe a sunfire cape if they're heavy AD. By this point you should be chugging red pots as well.
Sheen / Trinity Force
The worst part about sheen and trinity force is the items used to build them. Trundle just doesn't need mana OR ap so you're only buying it for the proc. It becomes a very gimmicky item at that point and I really don't recommend it. It SEEMS great because it works so well on Nasus, but unfortunately trundle is just slightly different enough to make it not worthwhile. If you have a ton of extra money near the end of the game though and only have one spot left, go for trinity force. It's a very expensive item for end game use only with Trundle.
Ability descriptions from: http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com
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That pillar should be modified so when it pops and you get slowed (its a big ass slow...) a text apears on your screen and says => TROLLED!!!
XD i have face this trolololo several times and his slow is so damn powerfull can even slow a zilean with speed boost and ghost enugh so you can catch him...
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I think his ult should be used to break beefy dps / tanks more easily. Unless the game has gone late enough where their carry is no longer very squishy, then they should die almost immediately when focused with or without trundle's ult. Using it on the "next" squishiest target will soften them up for a near immediate second kill
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Definitely. If a beefy dps overextends to initiate, trundles ult can make killing them surprisingly easy.
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United States37500 Posts
Jungle Trundle
QWQEQR, R > Q > W > E
1 8 21, Smite/Ghost
Cloth Armor + 5 hp pots Razor => Merc Treads => Phage (if you need the hp) -OR- Recurve (if you don't need the HP) => Bloodrazor => Mallet => Stark's I get a Vamp Scepter early (typically after Razor and Boots) if they have a strong counter-jungle. Otherwise, rely on your passive for jungle regen.
Team fights, you are the Anti-Carry. W in, auto attack once, Q immediately after. If their carry decides to retreat, throw down a E.
Trundle's ultimate, Agony, is so anti-Tank. However, in team fights, I still prefer to R the enemy tank and gun down on their Carry. Stealing all that Armor/MR will help when I dive. W will keep my MS up and help reduce CC in tandem with Merc Treads. Between R and Bloodrazor, Trundle is the bane of the current tanky meta.
I would say Lizard belongs on Trundle more than the carry, especially after the Lizard nerf to ranged champions. However, be wary that tanky mages (read: Gragas, Malphite, Mord, etc) can severely out DPS you. So kite the best you can with your array of slows (Red, Mallet, E). Get into the habit of auto attacking once, Q follow, then run away to bide some time for your Q's cooldown.
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im playing Trundle now in jungle, a few questions/comments i have are, first: op, are your links to your masteries messed up? they dont seem to be that logical, no offense (it shows taking 4 into improve Ghost which isnt even possible, and other stuff similiar to that). im playing 20/0/10 btw, was gonna try Utility Tree for jungling and see how that goes...
Also, i have been going more or less, Wringler's -> Frozen mallet -> GhostBlade -> tanking items i deem fit... but when i watched HotshotGG Jungle as trundle he actually opened Dorans Blade and a pot and did it without me noticing any problems... what are your thoughts on this (maybe its safer, faster, but slower build in terms of gold?)? also he opened Triforce instead of Frozen Mallet... whats your opinion on if trundle is more of a DPS or assistant Tank.
thanks in advance
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On December 14 2010 07:55 Asdkmoga wrote: (it shows taking 4 into improve Ghost which isnt even possible, and other stuff similiar to that).
thanks in advance
Nice! yep, that's screwed up. I don't go much into the offense tree unless I really have to (like with some akali builds to proc both passives level 1). The reasoning is it just doesn't provide enough offensive power to offset the mana/movespeed/cdr that you get in the utility tree.
Because trundle doesn't need much defense, even at level 1 in the jungle, he can easily go 1/8/21 for all that utility goodness plus SoS in the defensive tree.
I haven't yet looked at all the items available to see a quality build. Trundle has an immediate way to proc sheen though, just like nasus, so the proc is extremely powerful. Unlike nasus though, the mana and AP on the sheen largely go to waste so you're buying it just for the proc. I have a hard time dealing with this. Going full on trinity force is a great idea and almost imparitive to get more value out of your sheen investment at that point because all the other components are worthwhile.
with my cloth armor opening I've been building madreds razor for dragon control. After that I've been experimenting most with black cleaver for 2 instant stacks. Seems to work well, but I haven't compared it to everything else yet.
Wriggles is the best choice for upgrading razor I think. It gives you some needed lifesteal as a melee champ, and a free ward is mighty tasty. Bloodthirster is another good choice, but certainly only as your final damage dealing item as you don't get as much use out of it when everyone is under 2500HP.
Ghostblade is not impressive on trundle unless you are the tower taker. GB active + W tears through towers. In a fight it just isn't as helpful as black cleaver or bloodrazor.
After 2 offensive items and boots I build tanky. Sometimes starting with spirit visage for a nice easy item that goes very well with the passive.
All of this is still under thought. I still haven't found the best way to itemize him in most situations.
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On December 14 2010 08:25 ghen wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2010 07:55 Asdkmoga wrote: (it shows taking 4 into improve Ghost which isnt even possible, and other stuff similiar to that).
thanks in advance I don't go much into the offense tree. The reasoning is it just doesn't provide enough offensive power to offset the mana/movespeed/cdr that you get in the utility tree. Because trundle doesn't need much defense, even at level 1 in the jungle, he can easily go 1/8/21 for all that utility goodness plus SoS in the defensive tree. --------- After 2 offensive items and boots I build tanky. Sometimes starting with spirit visage for a nice easy item that goes very well with the passive. over the past hour or so, ive been testing the Masteries between jungling, (and before post the Potions Needed to see what i can buy)
What ive found: TL;DR (its ok, i forgive you) + Show Spoiler +Offensive allows for an early Ward, and finishes sooner than utility does, while utility, doing the same route as my offensive can be slower anywhere from 5-15 seconds, and even caused me to use a pot so i couldnt buy a ward after my first Blue pill although i acknowledge utility may be better late game, and i havnt tried that yet Armor 5 Pots: Works well and fine and dandy, but kinda unneeded, not toooooo optimal, however, good if your not completely ruined or are new to jungling so you can get used to it
Armor 4 Pots: This one is the one i find best, my reasoning being that with my offensive masters i only need 3 potions to kill my jungle before i decide to blue pill, one being at Blue buff, then wolves, then Wraiths. I go back, with 1 remaining health potion, and buy the 415 Sword + 1 Ward (i have to wait a bit, ill only have 75-80 gold once i blue pill) and i kill Red and use Health Pot... finishing my jungling route as early as 4:38 and as late as 4:46 depending on my fucking up and miss clicks. from this, i have blue for a lil bit longer, red's fresh, i have maybe 700/900 life. i place my ward (Either Dragon if they have a Jungler, or where its needed like mid, or bot's bushes for helping to prevent ganks) and then proceed to gank
However, with Utility Masteries, this is my finding Early game ****Note**** Jungle only, ive never done it late game so i dont know if its better then offensive then ****End of Note**** WIth Utility, everything seems normal with my jungle, follow along as planned until i hit Wraiths, then i take more damage then i thought i would and normally do when im my 20/0/10 build, leaving Wraiths at about 300-350 life i go to Double Golem and this is where it turns down... Double golem is alot hard on 3 potion Utility than it is Offensive, one game to prevent dieing i had to use my 4th pot, and another i got as low as 40 life... Now, why is this important? WIthout that, i teleport back, buy Sword, then have to buy another potion and no ward D:... i really liked my ward... so maybe with some Perfect Micro, i can ensure that i survive golem without using my pot, since i have played games where i lived with ~60 life or so but thats when i noticed something else... instead of having about 75-80 gold when i tele'd back, i have 95-105 gold when i got back, as in that extra money was extra time i spent killing minions... instead of finishing red at 4:38 - 4:46 i finished jungle more around 4:50-5:00, which i guess isnt THAT much, but it can be as extreme as a 22 seconds difference in our jungling speeds, and sometimes even a ward, or more acceptable to ganks from other junglers, but that may be worth it to still go utility, since i did enjoy running faster through the jungle despite my slower time, and i imagine that extra mana regen would be might helpful late game with my Nidalee takes my blue and what not, i dont know, ill try to go Utility Actual game and see how it feels late game, but i imagine it might be better end, not early tho. also i feel like Utility-armor+5pot may be better overall, or in general, but Offensive may come down to being more important when they have an enemy jungle, especially early Dragoners like WW, shaco, or Nunu. ------------ just a quick few clarification on items that'd help me: you seem to be right about the whole Trinity Force needed to make Sheen useful, now that i think about it, if i go Trinity Force, will the passive ruin my whole idea of going Frozen Mallet, i feel like Frozen Mallet is quite needed for my Trundling and is the only item i am sure about buying atm, but if Trinity Force Nullifies that ima need items to replace it mid game, since i usually opened Ghost blade and sheen and you kinda shut me down lol, i start experimenting with your Black Cleaver instead, but BF Sword is expensive as hell </3
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Have you been testing with bots in the lane to bring solo lane XP to the table? monsters level up based on the highest level in the game.
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I'm really digging: Merc Treads Wriggles Frozen Mallet
as my core.
I've been experimenting with: Ghostblade (Like it alot, nasty with your Q+active, you hit down carries so fast) Starks Fervor (good) Trinity Force (too expensive, good late game) GA Randuins Thornmail Banshees FoN
I like FoN more than Banshee's for the little extra move speed. It really makes you a beast with contaminate. I'm currently liking this a lot: Wriggles Lantern Mercs Frozen Mallet Starks Fervor Randuins Omen Force of Nature
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I like Wiggles and Mallet on him as well with treads, swiftness is another option as long as you go R->Q->W->E priority.
Have you thought about going Sheen into Starks or GB... Sheen is fairly cheap and it seems like it would add so much damage with how much you can spam Q.
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He plays a lot like Nasus...I figure he should be built similarly. The only difference becomes that a Mallet becomes more useful for Trundle than Nasus because his Shit Pillar + Contaminate together are not as good a CC as Wither ---> Trundle still needs to catch up to his opponent before wrecking them or chasing.
Also is it me or does his Ult seems REALLY lackluster?
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On December 15 2010 17:56 WaveofShadow wrote: He plays a lot like Nasus...I figure he should be built similarly. The only difference becomes that a Mallet becomes more useful for Trundle than Nasus because his Shit Pillar + Contaminate together are not as good a CC as Wither ---> Trundle still needs to catch up to his opponent before wrecking them or chasing.
Also is it me or does his Ult seems REALLY lackluster? it's good but not "ult" status
honestly I'd prefer if contaminate was a lot better and that was his ult, like it would give those stats to all allies on the field and sap the health/armor of enemies on it
that would probably be too good though lol. his ult definitely needs a minor buff.
trundle is good though, I've been doing well as him.
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On December 15 2010 02:57 Drathmar wrote: Have you thought about going Sheen into Starks or GB... Sheen is fairly cheap and it seems like it would add so much damage with how much you can spam Q.
The problem with sheen is the two base items. Mana crystal and AP book. Trundle just doesn't need either of these items unlike nasus who will get some use out of both... So you're paying the entire cost of sheen for the passive which is a hard pill to swallow.
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I want a huge aoe contaminate for ulti and send the current R to W with nerfs accordingly.
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wrecked 4v5
it's hilarious when you 1v3 underneath both nexus turrets and get triple kills ez.
i REALLY like starks on trundle. it's gonna be part of my core now.
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I would really like to know how to truly jungle effectively with trundle .108
I wouldn't necessarily say im having a hard time, however its not quite where i would like it.
I seem to have the best results using arpen quints/reds, armor seals, mp5 blues and 1-16-13.
AS worth it at all? or is it arpen all the way?
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On January 28 2011 23:38 EnrageD wrote: I would really like to know how to truly jungle effectively with trundle .108
I wouldn't necessarily say im having a hard time, however its not quite where i would like it.
I seem to have the best results using arpen quints/reds, armor seals, mp5 blues and 1-16-13.
AS worth it at all? or is it arpen all the way?
Yeah, I'm wishing I got Udyr instead. Trundle just seems very lacking. I like the idea of him but I get obliterated in team fights if I don't put my ult on their tank immediately and I don't feel like my damage is anywhere close to an Olaf or Udyr.
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Been following this as my jungle route for Trundle. Trundle is one of the best junglers in the game IMO, just needs to fill a certain role.
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Trundle is easily my best champ and way underrated imo. He's the first character I ever jungled with (and the only one except for a few games as Warwick), and I don't think I've ever had a kd ratio less than 3 or 4 with him when I jungle. Granted, I'm not high elo or anything so this is probably meaningless in the grand scheme of things, but I just kind of roll faces with him. big wolf>blue>wolves>wraiths>golems>b>red>gank. I can solo dragon as soon as I have wriggles (usually late 5 or early 6).
I go 1-8-21 with arpen red/flat armor yellow/mr/lv blue/MS quint and smite/ghost obv. I start cloth + 5 pot and get boots1 + pots/wards on my first b. My "core" is wriggles, merc treads, phage, and guardian angel then I get other items to taste, finishing phage into mallet if i really need the hp or triforce if I don't then either way I usually get an infinity edge or bloodthirster next.
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i find it really hard to believe that trundle can dragon at 5 with just wriggles
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udry rapestroys Dragon @ 5 with just wriggles. I don't have a hard time believing that Trundle could do so as well.
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at 5 you're gonna have 3 in chomp, 1 in defiled ground, 1 in poop pillar no attack speed items, mb boots and wriggles i guess if you get some wriggles procs on chomp i could see it happening but i still don't think it's like a guaranteed thing. he's got to get so low when he does it
and ofc udyr is a different story, imba passive
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On January 29 2011 04:38 gtrsrs wrote: at 5 you're gonna have 3 in chomp, 1 in defiled ground, 1 in poop pillar no attack speed items, mb boots and wriggles i guess if you get some wriggles procs on chomp i could see it happening but i still don't think it's like a guaranteed thing. he's got to get so low when he does it
and ofc udyr is a different story, imba passive I've played more games than I can count with Trundle and I've never died to dragon or had to back off of it for fear of dying once I have wriggles.
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On January 29 2011 03:45 Phil4994 wrote:Been following this as my jungle route for Trundle. Trundle is one of the best junglers in the game IMO, just needs to fill a certain role. What mastery/runes are being used in this vid???
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On January 29 2011 04:51 Scorcher2k wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2011 03:45 Phil4994 wrote:Been following this as my jungle route for Trundle. Trundle is one of the best junglers in the game IMO, just needs to fill a certain role. What mastery/runes are being used in this vid???
Runes 3 AD red + 6 Armor pen Armor Yellow Choice Blue AD Quints
Masteries 1/14/15
Skill Order QWQEQ
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On January 29 2011 04:51 Scorcher2k wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2011 03:45 Phil4994 wrote:Been following this as my jungle route for Trundle. Trundle is one of the best junglers in the game IMO, just needs to fill a certain role. What mastery/runes are being used in this vid???
Go to the youtube page stonewall008 always writes what setup hes using when he posts a vid.
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On January 28 2011 23:38 EnrageD wrote: I would really like to know how to truly jungle effectively with trundle .108
I wouldn't necessarily say im having a hard time, however its not quite where i would like it.
I seem to have the best results using arpen quints/reds, armor seals, mp5 blues and 1-16-13.
AS worth it at all? or is it arpen all the way?
AS falls off with trundle due to the ridiculously long animation of his Q. With enough AS it becomes preferable to use bite about half as much just to refresh the buff. So for that reason I save AS for necessary items like bloodrazor, black cleaver, or ghostblade depending on build. Marks should then stay arpen as the best choice. Quints can be arpen or move speed.
Also try building his runes with mp5/lvl yellows and mres/lvl blues. You'll get a little lower in the jungle at the beginning but that will make up for it with more EHP late game.
The first jungle changes hurt trundle obviously, but the most recent mres change didn't harm him at all. I still start big wolf, then go blue->wolves->wraiths->red->gank or small golems.
For masteries I get perserverence level 1 utility for synergy with his passive.
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United States47024 Posts
On January 29 2011 05:05 ghen wrote: For masteries I get perserverence level 1 utility for synergy with his passive. Does perseverance work with his passive? I thought his passive was a healing effect, not regeneration, and that perseverance only works with regeneration?
And even if the synergy does work, 4% of your passive is literally going to be like 1 HP per jungle creep. 15 extra HP on your first run through the jungle doesn't seem like it's worth 3 mastery points.
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I always thought perseverance was utterly uselss, the numbers behind it just do not seem viable for any champion.
I've been using strictly good hands for utility on most champions, and i notice the difference, especially late game.
I find it extremely unsafe if i start cloth+pots. I usually go for wriggles anyways, I'm going to start opening vamp scepter and seeing how that goes.
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So i think i found the perfect runes for trundle. I was trying many diff methods and routes. and this is what i came up with.
Just go give an idea my last 2 games i went 25-5-23.
Runes: AD Reds / Armor Yellows / MP5 Blues. 2 Armor pen quints and 1 AD quint. The AD runes i find are ESSENTIAL for trundle jungling. The bonus you get for your Q makes taking down blue extremely fast, and you'll be outjungling pretty much everybody. The only time i've ever been ganked at red was by a shaco who set up there from the beginning of the game.
Masteries: 1-16-13 (i find this the safest, not necessarily the fastest) other options are 1-8-21/21-0-9/9-0-21.
Items/Route: Start off with cloth armor and 5 pots, get wriggles ASAP, (it makes it so you can roam for ages). Merc treads than phage. My jungle path is standard blue first, however i kill wolves and wraiths a second time before i gank (gets me to 5 and helps increase my HP a bit) Here's where some people may go Wuhhh? Usually after i get phage and wriggles, i can spend the bulk of my time roaming, trundles W is borderline spammable and gives you great mobility, his pillar is GREAT for scouting bushes, ive been using it more and more like a 5 second ward lately. So by the time i need to B after phage, i usually have enough for most, if not ALL of my guardian angel. I rush GA which makes them think twice about focusing me, and if your not focusing trundle, he is a fucking PAIN in teamfights. After my GA i usually finish mallet or get Last Whisper. If the came is going well (if im at 8+ KDA after GA) i usually skip mallet, get LW, and turn phage into a trinity force. Sheen i found is USELESS unless you get it last to finish a Trin.
After figuring out how to play trundle and build him, I can safely say he is better than Warwick. With AD runes he's a faster jungler, not as safe, but still pretty damn safe, and i think his level 4-5 gank is key, with WW now, it's almost not ideal to gank untill your 6.
Trundle is just a straight shit disturber, he can't be CC'd with merc in his W, his pillar is a key factor in getting free kills form running champions. His ulti gives him major survivability as well as damage, doesn't put a huge target on his back like WW's ulti, and people ALWAYS underestimate the troll.
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Runes are 100% not perfect. Get your APen on marks, AD on quints. Bam, improved.
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You can instantly improve your rune setup by trading the two arpen quints and four damage marks for 2 damage quints and 4 arpen marks, netting you a whopping 0.7 more AD.
You might not want to bother spending the extra IP but others might.
[edit] why so ninja-ed? =(
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Heh I was about to ask whether Trundle can carry. I just cant seem to do it unlike my WW.
Then again I havent played him as much. I know the pillar is far more useful in teamfights than anything WW can do.
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trundle is a great chaser/sniper/tanky char but I dont thing he'll ever beastmode like a ww with some tank items visage and madreds.
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Marshall Islands3404 Posts
On February 10 2011 01:44 Slayer91 wrote: trundle is a great chaser/sniper/tanky char but I dont thing he'll ever beastmode like a ww with some tank items visage and madreds.
you can if you solo top, ghostblade/boots then all tank items and trundle goes nutz
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On February 10 2011 01:44 Slayer91 wrote: trundle is a great chaser/sniper/tanky char but I dont thing he'll ever beastmode like a ww with some tank items visage and madreds.
The problem with WW is he has no ability to escape other then hope somebody is low. When I play a fully built WW (i usually go brazer/visage/banshees/GA as my core) No matter how tanky I am, his ult puts a massive target on his back. And no matter how tanky you build him, with good enough CC, GA and Banshees and visage just aren't enough. you are going to die. Team fights mid are inevitable late game, and WW just does not do well in team fights unless he's last to engage.
With trundle, all I need is a GA and I have the ability to do whatever i want in team fights, his contaminate and merc treads makes stunning him almost useless, his poop pillar is an amazing slow. And the lifesteal you get from wriggles/shit dying everywhere is enough to keep him topped.
I just feel way more safe in teamfights with trundle than WW. I can initiate and not worry about getting stomped in 3 seconds, as it stands right now, the only situation i would take WW over trundle is in a 1v1/2v1 situation, or the all mighty Level 6 gank.
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What you're saying is that WW is a bigger threat and initiates better and therefore dies faster.
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Trundle is legitimately good though. Problem is that his ganks won't catch anymore careful with their summoners up, so only people like Caller gets ganked. He's a GREAT anti-tank. Someone like rammus or malphite will just get stuffed if they try to initiate on a trundle because trundle will just ult him, wall off his team, and then beat off the rest of their team while not dying, while your own team focuses down the tank that initiated.
He can push like a boss as well, since he can easily escape most gank attempts and towerdive if they don't send someone strong to defend his pushes, while keeping himself full with lifesteal.
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But I like 1v2/3ing ppl and forcing an early gg..
I get what you mean though. As trundle I find myself just saving my teammates with pillar and delaying tower pushes.
If our team is losing though I feel kinda helpless.
Not a confident beast that can 1v3 lategame..
Also trundles ult doesnt seem to last very long.
Edit: I might just need more practice. Time to trollolol again
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On February 10 2011 09:22 Slayer91 wrote: What you're saying is that WW is a bigger threat and initiates better and therefore dies faster.
No. It isn't what he's saying.
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Marshall Islands3404 Posts
On February 10 2011 10:39 Juicyfruit wrote: and then beat off the rest of their team
what trundle does best
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On February 10 2011 11:46 L wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2011 09:22 Slayer91 wrote: What you're saying is that WW is a bigger threat and initiates better and therefore dies faster.
No. It isn't what he's saying. WW ult disables one of the members of the team and with huge lifesteal and more survival items a focused WW takes a lot less damage than a focused trundle. Trundle however, usually doesn't get into the situation where the whole team is focusing him and he's in the middle of it.
I guess you could claim contaminate is enough to get away but I'm not sure I believe that.
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Hmmm need to buy 3 ad mark and 3 ad quints for this char i guess
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On February 10 2011 18:58 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2011 11:46 L wrote:On February 10 2011 09:22 Slayer91 wrote: What you're saying is that WW is a bigger threat and initiates better and therefore dies faster.
No. It isn't what he's saying. WW ult disables one of the members of the team and with huge lifesteal and more survival items a focused WW takes a lot less damage than a focused trundle. Trundle however, usually doesn't get into the situation where the whole team is focusing him and he's in the middle of it. I guess you could claim contaminate is enough to get away but I'm not sure I believe that.
Thats it right there... If im playing with friends on vent, usually if a WW ult initiates a team fight, some1 will yell "jump on that fucking dog" and boom, down goes WW.
Trundle cannot just initiate like that, so the chances of him getting focused by the whole team (or at least their damage champions) are quite low, however if im carrying, they do realize trundle as a threat, it's just much harder to lock him down and melt him. If i feel like im getting focused, Pillar contaminate, run, let fight progress, jump the fuck back in and start Qing bitches. Normally they will just forget about you. Also, once you get that GA (like i said, i get it early, after phage/boots2/wriggles) That big halo over your head seems to strike fear into opponents, no1 will try to engage with me, they will just run, and if it's a teamfight, they will usually let me do my thing, while they try to focus the other damage champions.
As far as Contaminate goes, its not the best when it comes down to anti-cc (see morgana's black shield or Sivrs SS.). But I recently played lane trundle in 2v1 vs a morgana and sion, that combo would wreck most people, but with trundle, I can eat both stuns and still have time to get away from sions shield explosion. I could never take that combo with WW.
I guess if we're arguing semantics and trying to decide who is the better champion, it all comes down to team comp, and how the game progresses.
I guess if i had to pick 1 reason why I play trundle over WW now, it would be that Life Steal is WW's crutch, Ignite, Kat and MF all counter that crutch, and it's been driving me nuts as of late.
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On February 10 2011 19:44 emucxg wrote: Hmmm need to buy 3 ad mark and 3 ad quints for this char i guess
AD runes are only essential if you want to jungle, if your just planning on laning or trying him out, stack Arpen.
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On February 10 2011 18:58 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2011 11:46 L wrote:On February 10 2011 09:22 Slayer91 wrote: What you're saying is that WW is a bigger threat and initiates better and therefore dies faster.
No. It isn't what he's saying. I guess you could claim contaminate is enough to get away but I'm not sure I believe that. It really is. Trundle is by far the easiest character to flee on that I have played. There have been plenty of times where I taunt a 1v3 fight, throw down contaminate and keep acting like I'm going to fully run away but then attacking them as they don't all give up chase at once and managing to take one or two. He is truly a troll character.
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So, since im using trundle as my main DPS jungler. I'm going to buy a skin, Junkyard or Slugger?
Slugger is pretty cool, and while it should be a 975 skin, its only 520, and junyard is 975..
yet, junkyard only has 1 shoe and wears a pot for a helmet...
Edit. Also last 3 wins as trundle. Using my go-to cookie cutter build:
Edit #2: why the hell is the image so big?
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On February 10 2011 23:42 EnrageD wrote: So, since im using trundle as my main DPS jungler. I'm going to buy a skin, Junkyard or Slugger?
Junkyard all the way. There's a POT on his HEAD!
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Ok im convinced. Time to chain WW back to the basement and let the troll outa the cage
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Im the only one who uses the wriggles, boots1, hog x2, black cleaver, swiftness, banshees build?
cleaver just does so much damage on him, and I guess you can add a starks on him later
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On February 12 2011 19:25 Iplaythings wrote: Im the only one who uses the wriggles, boots1, hog x2, black cleaver, swiftness, banshees build?
cleaver just does so much damage on him, and I guess you can add a starks on him later
ive been staying away from banshee's on trundle, contaminate is enough anti cc you really don't need it's passive, and force of nature is a much better item if you need magic resist. also HoG seems like a waste of gold.. don't ask me why (it's my core for WW). I get the HP i need from phage, and the armor i need from GA (usually i buy chain armor after phage). Phage and HoG are relatively the same price, you just get so much more out of phage, also, i dont need gold/sec as trundle cuz its not like im playing assist heavy jungler like amumu, shen, or nunu. I do get black cleaver more often now, but not untill after GA and last whisper.
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double post im so bad at this.
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On February 12 2011 20:05 EnrageD wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2011 19:25 Iplaythings wrote: Im the only one who uses the wriggles, boots1, hog x2, black cleaver, swiftness, banshees build?
cleaver just does so much damage on him, and I guess you can add a starks on him later ive been staying away from banshee's on trundle, contaminate is enough anti cc you really don't need it's passive, and force of nature is a much better item if you need magic resist. also HoG seems like a waste of gold.. don't ask me why (it's my core for WW). I get the HP i need from phage, and the armor i need from GA (usually i buy chain armor after phage). Phage and HoG are relatively the same price, you just get so much more out of phage, also, i dont need gold/sec as trundle cuz its not like im playing assist heavy jungler like amumu, shen, or nunu. I do get black cleaver more often now, but not untill after GA and last whisper. I allways get a but ton assists while on trundle, HoG is suprisingly good, id keep those.
Also I wouldnt blindly get LW, only if they are stacking armor, if not, cleaver will allways do WAY more. I dont build mallet because I feel like I can easily catch people with contaminate / pillar of filfth.
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I tried Trundle for the first time last night and gravitated toward Wriggle's/Merc's/Trinity/GA with APen Quints/Marks, Armor Seals and CDR Glyphs. I hadn't read this thread at the time.
I'm somewhat surprised there's been no mention of Trinity here. It seemed an obvious choice due to his Q spamming. I take it you all generally cease keeping it on cooldown later in the game and rely more on straight auto-attacking?
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On February 15 2011 00:58 Seuss wrote: I tried Trundle for the first time last night and gravitated toward Wriggle's/Merc's/Trinity/GA with APen Quints/Marks, Armor Seals and CDR Glyphs. I hadn't read this thread at the time.
I'm somewhat surprised there's been no mention of Trinity here. It seemed an obvious choice due to his Q spamming. I take it you all generally cease keeping it on cooldown later in the game and rely more on straight auto-attacking?
it's been mentioned, the main problem with trinity (or sheen), is trundle benefits very little from AP or even mana for that matter. he may play alot like nasus, but he doesn't build like him. bottom line, trundle benefits very little from sheen, but trin is a solid item, however, you need to look at cost to benefit ratio, trinity is just way too damn expensive. especially if the only reason your buying it is for the proc.
phage is part of my core, normally i would turn phage into a mallet, however, if it's late game and i have the gold sometimes i will get trinity force. but, there is much better items to "rush" other than trinity force.
you get more damage out of items like last whisper, ghostblade, black cleaver, etc. (keep in mind, black cleaver +q is a instant 2 stacks of arpen, which is alot more beneficial than an extra 200 damage from sheen proc)
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If you can consistently proc Sheen/Triforce, it deals huge damage for its cost. Just because you have little use for AP/Mana it doesn't mean Sheen/Triforce is bad on a champ.
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The thing is trundle doesn't even need the damage. I usually get wriggles, lvl 2 boots (berserkers or merc treads if they have a lot of casters and/or cc), and then banshee's veil. You can literally just Q people to death and abuse red/blue buff for the rest of your damage output. Once you knock down a few towers it's pretty safe for trundle to steal buffs because he can block people from chasing him with contaminate and pillar of filth in escape paths.
I really don't think there is any reason to get any really dps items on him because it seems counter productive. Really all you need to do is live longer than the first person that dies and you shouldn't die.
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I'm not sure how I managed to overlook the mentions of Trinity Force in the first page. Shame on me.
I think a crucial difference at play here is that I've been going QWQEQR -> R>Q>E>W. I chose to prioritize Pillar over Contaminate due to the relative power gains of each in a Trinity Force build. You gain one-fourth as much movement speed and crowd control reduction per point in Contaminate past the first, and with Trinity Force your focus isn't on attack speed.
Meanwhile leveling Pillar compounds its effectiveness. While you only gain one-fifth as much slow per point after the first, the more slow you have the greater an obstacle the Pillar itself becomes. More importantly leveling Pillar increases its frequency of use to the point where you can effectively have a Pillar on the battlefield at all times. Being able to continuously separate the enemy team from one another, disrupt their cohesion, and slow runners seems immensely more valuable than being slightly faster and harder to CC.
If nothing else I find the playstyle this build excessively enjoyable.
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So what's the "top elo" Trundle jungling build/route? Can anyone good post it? IIRC Inept played trundle quite a lot so here's his chance to post his guide! :x
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dontmashme says use triforce, sheen first, so that's what you do
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Trundle is very versatile. In my opinion, if you want to be a Trundle player, you need to master three to four routes and play reactively to your enemy jungler. For example, against Nunu, Cho or someone who might want to take my jungle first, I like doing two routes - either a speed clear with someone guarding my wraiths or a fast lvl 6 route with me taking my own wraiths fast. Trundle is good in invasion too, so it's another route you might want to master with him. As far as masteries goes, you can do anything on him, but in my experience, if you can take 1/8/21 on a jungler you should, which is the case for Trundle. For maximum speed/safety in the jungle, I use 3 AD Marks, 6 ArPen Marks, Armor Seals and CDR/level or MR/level glyphs. The reason is that with +10AD and 10ArPen you kill lvl1 wraiths with 3 strikes instead of four, which adds some precious 5-7 seconds and less hitpoints to your jungling. Itemization I'm still getting used to it, altough Merc Treads Wriggles is definitely core. I love getting brutalizer on him, since it gives so good stats, but GB is lackluster. I'm leaning towards Phage, Aegis if your team doesn't have it, Tank item based on enemy comp if your team does have Aegis, Frozen Mallet. The game generally ends here, but next step is probably atma's or banshees. I might try Spirit Visage, since CDR is so good on trundle and you have a boost to your passive and wriggles healing.
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Would like apologize for previous hating on trundle since I started playing him the previous free week. He's so awesome. You just never die. You literally can get caught farming by 3+ people and take the amount of CC/damage that would kill a squishy 3 times over and trundle is there rofling away at half hp under contaminate. (lol umad bro?)
He does pretty decent sustained dps, but you REALLY need last whisper to do dmg vs anyone tanky. You do have the option to run in to fights that you KNOW you won't win and get away, where most melee DPS just have to sit there because they can't poke.
He has decent initation with pillar because he can get away anyway. He's not quite as scary as WW at starting a fight, but he's MUCH less likely to die and MUCH more mobile so he can easily run after squishies.
I'm wondering about itemization atm though, right now I'm going something like:
Wriggles/merc treads core. Madreds blood razer could be done if you have a specific champ in mind to counter but its unexplored territory for me atm.
Then I'm kind of lost. Phage is good, but do i go straight to frozen mallet, for the guaranteed slow and nice amount of hp, or go for trinity force for the sheen proc and damage. Guardian angel so you can run into fights 1st or 2nd and they can't focus you? Force of nature or banshees vs magic damage? Randuins is good always vs any physical damage as usual. Thornmail seems pretty smart especially with your passive if its some ranged carry like trist thats impossible to chase. Spirit visage possibly worth something? More Q's and W uptime, and very slightly helps your passive which is quite useful when you're often not the one to die first.
I've been having super good results but I can't lock down core items atm, there doesn't seem to be anything doing atrociously either, though.
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United States47024 Posts
Wriggles->Triforce->Tank seems to be the best balance imo. Mallet gives you some nice midgame beefiness, but with Mallet, I felt like I didn't really have enough damage output until I finished Last Whisper.
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if u want tanky real bad, ult on dbc rammus rape their carry as cc and attacks and spells do nothing to u laugh as the rammus gets negative armor after dbc lol
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I find trundle to be the perfect counter pick to rammus. Not only you counterjungle him until he cries, you can ulti his DBC to transform the armordillo into pudding.
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I'm testing Maxing E after Q and having positive results so far. It really makes you avoid death. Having one level of W is already enough early. Also, I'm trying this new build of Black Cleaver after Wriggles/Merc Treads. Still need more games doing this to have a safe sample size, but I'm liking so far, it really gives that extra oomph to him.
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i max E after Q unless I desperately need the CC reduction in structured teamfights. but as trudle, I don't like structured teamfights, I like roaming around and fighting in jungles and making my own advantage with dirty pillar and having pillar come up a second or two quicker is frequently the difference between a successful chase/escape and failed one.
triforce >>> bc though IMO. ghostblade is acceptable with a later bc, but if you're doing 1-stop shopping for damage output, triforce is your best bet, with ghostblade being a cheaper alternative.
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Once E is maxed you can essentially have a pillar somewhere 24/7 with enough CDR. It's ridiculous how disruptive you can be in a team fight because of it.
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Calculations remade! TL;DR - Don't buy Trinity Force on Trundle. There are better options.
For the sake of calculations, we will take a 2000HP, 100 armor, 100 mr enemy. Stats that aren't impossible for the endgame. Also, I'll take into consideration that I will have 10 ArPen from runes, because that's what I use on trundle.
Base stats @ 18: AD: 109 AS: 1 ArPen: 10 MPen: 0 +60% AS from W.
Youmuus Ghostblade without active: +30AD +15% Critical Chance +20 ArPen Youmuus Ghostblade with active: +50% AS. Black Cleaver: +55 AD +30% AS 15/30/45 Armor Reduction Bloodthirster: +100 AD Madred's Bloodrazor: +30 AD +40AS +4% of target's HP per hit (magic damage) Infinity Edge: +75 AD +20% Critical Chance Criticals deal 250% Damage. Last Whisper: +40 AD +40% ArPen
Attacks per Second: From W: +.402 (.6*.67) = Base Youmuus active: +.335 = 1,737 Black Cleaver &Trinity Force: +.201 = 1,603 Madred's: +.268 = 1,67
Damage per hit: Youmuus Ghostblade: (109 +30 +40 +.15*2*179) = 232 vs 2000 HP, 70 Armor = 137 damage per hit Black Cleaver: 109+40+55 = 204 vs 2000 HP, 65 armor on first, 50 on second, 35 on third and onwards = 124 on the first, 136 on the second, 152 onwards. BT: 109+40+100 = 249 vs 2000 HP, 90 armor = 132 per hit Madred's: 109+40+30 = 179 +4% of EHP vs 2000 HP, 90 armor, 100 MR = 95 physical and 20 magical per hit (115 per hit total) Infinity Edge: 109+40+75 +.2*2.5*224 = 336 vs 2000 HP, 90 armor = 177 per hit. Last Whisper: 109 +40+40 = 189 vs 2000 HP, 54 armor = 123 per hit Trinity Force without buff: 109+40+30 +.15*.2*179 = 232 vs 2000HP, 90 armor. = 123 per hit. Trinity Force with buff: 232 + 1.5*109 = 395 vs 2000 HP, 90 armor = 187 per hit.
Attacks per Second * Damage per hit = Damage per Second. GB, without active = 1.402*137 = 192 DPS GB, on active = 1.737*137 = 237 DPS Black Cleaver, one stack = 1.603*124 = 198 DPS. Two Stacks = 218DPS. Onwards: 243 DPS Bloodthirster: 1.402*132 = 185 DPS Madred's: 1.67*115 = 192DPS Infinity Edge: 1.402*177 = 248 DPS Last Whisper: 1.402*123 = 172 DPS Trinity Force: 1.603*123 = 197DPS Assuming one buffed attack every 4 seconds (Q's cooldown without CDR) = 197 +187/4 = 243 DPS
DPS per Gold: GB, without active: 2687/192 = 13,99 Gold per DPS GB, active: 2687/237 = 11,33 Gold per DPS Black Cleaver: One stack: 3065/198 = 15,47 Gold per DPS, Two Stacks: 14,05 Gold per DPS, Onwards: 12,61 Gold per DPS BT: 3200/185 = 17.29 gold per DPS Madred's: 3800/192 = 19.79 gold per DPS Infinity Edge: 4080/248 = 16,45 gold per DPS Last Whisper: 2290/172 = 13,31 gold per DPS Trinity Force = 4070/273 = 16,74 gold per DPS with buff, 4070/197 = 20,65 gold per DPS off-buff.
I bolded the very best gold per damage ratio. Youmuus, Black Cleaver and Last Whisper are the best items one could get for Trundle if you're looking for damage. Trinity Force stays only in front of Black Cleaver when it's the first strike, and stays behind everything else when not buffed. Surprisingly, we have a new good option against tanky teams, as good as Youmuus: Last Whisper. The only item that beats Black Cleaver after the second strike is, without surprise, active Youmuus Ghostblade.
I hope this spawns some new ideas on what to build for Trundle. I know I have some:
1. When you have another tank/aegis carrier in your team Go for Black Cleaver, then Guardian Angel/Banshee's/Randuins/SV depending on their comp.
2. When you don't have a complete tank in your team Go either Last Whisper or Youmuus Ghostblade/Brutalizer and build your Aegis, another tank item, finish that ghostblade, etc.
Of course, I'm not really into cookie cutter builds. Build reactively is the best thing you can always do.
EDIT: Redone calculations. I was using trinity force's bonus off TOTAL ad, where it only gives off from base AD. It was already... suboptimal, and now it is even more.
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Triforce is a lot about the utility, not only the damage (the damage increase over Sheen is fairly small). Movespeed, HP, Slow.
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Wow i didn't realise Trinity gives so much DPS. Now i'm pretty sure it is the best pick out of all those items. It has so many various stats AND then it gives similar dps/gold to other items? Yes please!
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Please keep in mind that those calculations for Trinity are overly optimistic. It assumes you can keep the buff every two seconds, which isn't true for trundle, unless you randomly spam your spells without thought, so please keep in mind that. On Triforce's utilities: I'd rather just build Phage and make it a Frozen Mallet later for the slows. Trinity Force makes you spend too much gold to have little buffs that aren't really that good compared to what you can have. You become a jack of all trades and master of none. And really, why would you want it for the slow if you already have the most frustating slow/cockblocker ever? Also, you get diminishing returns from the movespeed bonus once you already take into account W's bonus movespeed. Trinity Force is a waste of money on Trundle. Buy Black Cleaver/Youmuus instead. Black Cleaver if you need the DPS, Youmuus if you need to start tanking sooner.
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On March 11 2011 21:54 necrosed wrote: Please keep in mind that those calculations for Trinity are overly optimistic. It assumes you can keep the buff every two seconds, which isn't true for trundle, unless you randomly spam your spells without thought, so please keep in mind that. On Triforce's utilities: I'd rather just build Phage and make it a Frozen Mallet later for the slows. Trinity Force makes you spend too much gold to have little buffs that aren't really that good compared to what you can have. You become a jack of all trades and master of none. And really, why would you want it for the slow if you already have the most frustating slow/cockblocker ever? Also, you get diminishing returns from the movespeed bonus once you already take into account W's bonus movespeed. Trinity Force is a waste of money on Trundle. Buy Black Cleaver/Youmuus instead. Black Cleaver if you need the DPS, Youmuus if you need to start tanking sooner.
I was living under the impression that Trundle's Q is the most spammable shit in the game
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most spammable in the game is Evelynn's Q. Trundle's Q has a 4 second flat cooldown and can be reduced to 2,4 secs with 40% cdr. But you will need masteries, golem and runes for that if you don't want to mix on items.
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Thanks guys for this thread and necrosed's help in the TL chat. It's really helped me with my jungle trundling. :D
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Redone calculations, taking into consideration attack speed, armor and HP. Trinity Force still not that good in comparison to Black Cleaver, Last Whisper and Youmuus. and you welcome baneling! =]
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What's the time frame for DPS? While dps is a great measure for raid bosses over 5 minutes. LoL is a much more frantic game. Maybe a calculation can be done on how fast you can do 1k damage or something. Fights don't last long enough for DPS really to factor in imo. Just a suggestion. It's all theory anyway Spikey burst DPS generally is the king for ganks and such.
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Trinity force never looks good from a purely DPS point of view. It's when you factor in all that other crap (mobility and slow, which you still need even if trundle has W and E), the pieces that it's built from, and the fact that it helps condense your damage potential that it starts looking better.
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HP, Mana, letting your damage come in predictable bursts, slow proc, constant movespeed... Triforce is a very high utility item that brings a lot of intangibles to the table. I'm not trying to discredit your numbers, but they're pretty much true on everyone (from a DPS perspective, Triforce will never look optimal), yet plenty of characters still like to build Triforce and there is reasoning behind this.
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Well, my reasoning is pretty simple. If you get the most cost-beneficial items based on what they do, Trinity Force will always suck. I mean, if you want DPS and health, You'd get more if you bought Black Cleaver and a Giant's Belt than if you spend all the money on Trinity force. The same is true for every other stat. I just don't like expending 4k on little bonuses. If you really want to push it, you get +ms +as +crit +CDR +decent DPS on youmuus and the other 1.4k gold you can spend on even better items. Particularly, I don't like having all these small bonuses if I can deny one or two of them to get two pretty big and decent.
Also, if you want to see how fast you can go to 1k from DPS, well... 1kHealth/Damage per second = Health Second per damage. The results would be the same, with the exception that Black Cleaver and Trinity Force would be a tad better.
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United States47024 Posts
On March 12 2011 02:20 necrosed wrote: I mean, if you want DPS and health, You'd get more if you bought Black Cleaver and a Giant's Belt than if you spend all the money on Trinity force. The same is true for every other stat. Which is exactly why Trinity Force is good on champs that make use of most of the Triforce stats and not just one or two.
The incremental value of the Triforce recipe is extremely good. For 300g, you get 12 AD, 5 AP, 10% ASpd, 5% Crit, 4% MS, 25 HP, and the upgrades to the Sheen and Phage passives. Hell, the gold value for just the items you can compare to base stats is already 1115 gold (ignoring the movespeed and 2 passive upgrades, which are certainly worth at least a couple hundred more gold). It then comes down to whether you consider the Triforce components good value. The only questionable one is Sheen, since the AP doesn't go anywhere, and even then, Trundle makes good use of the passive and the mana.
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On March 12 2011 02:20 necrosed wrote: Also, if you want to see how fast you can go to 1k from DPS, well... 1kHealth/Damage per second = Health Second per damage. The results would be the same, with the exception that Black Cleaver and Trinity Force would be a tad better. That's implying damage is constant. In reality it isn't specially with a bursty proc like sheen. The reason for simplifying it to dps is to try to make it even. In reality it's not. Sure that calculation will give you a ballpark figure. Because on most AD champs if you time 2 seconds a sheen will almost win out in a true calculation of dmg. But the DPS could still be lower. Which is why something like fastest time to get to 1k or 2k dmg is more useful. You even state at with the last sentence it's not the best way to do it.
Maybe I need to explain it a bit better. Going through an optimal rotation, which items would burn someone the fastest. DPS only gives an average. Due to dmg spikes from certain items using those spike highs to your advantage you can have a technical higher dps if you can kill them on a high dmg proc rather than some median DPS number.
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i don't know why you're still debating triforce on trundle dontmashme says get wriggles->triforce, sheen first, so that's what you do
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United States47024 Posts
On March 12 2011 02:45 gtrsrs wrote: i don't know why you're still debating triforce on trundle dontmashme says get wriggles->triforce, sheen first, so that's what you do If we're quoting high Elo players as being authoritative, it's also worth noting that TheOddOne has also done the same thing in every ESL game where I've seen him pick Trundle.
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You don't need the AP and the mana is negligible. Trundle's mana costs are very low that with base regen +SS +Meditation you fuel all your needs of mana. Also, you already get diminishing returns on the movespeed bonus since you have decent base MS +MS from utility AND ms from W. So what we're really looking at is crit damage, burst from Sheen, attack speed, health bonus and slow. The crit, damage, attack speed and burst were taken into consideration already on the DPS calculations, so what stays in question is pahge's slow and +health. Like I said, you get better bonuses from having a Black Cleaver+Giant's Belt, that can be turned later into a frozen mallet. Will you miss the slow? I don't think you should, since you have mad MS from W and crazy slow+pathblocker on E. Chasing isn't exactly a problem for trundle. I respect DontMashMe's and OddOne's opinions as players, but if you don't bring better reasoning than "he said so" it's really not a good piece of advice. Maybe they really haven't put much thought on it or haven't stopped to think about it. Stonewall008's goes for Brutalizer, Phage and Youmuu's, for instance, which is in concordance with my opinion and calculations. Like I said, in my opinion all those little extra bonuses are missable. The only good thing about Triforce is that it only takes one item slot.
----- I prefer to use averages than to go for HP benchmarks, since it would be overly complicated to simulate something as spiky as Infinity Edge, but if you look closely, Trinity Force's "huge spike" does actually just a little bit more of damage than the others, and it's lower overrall damage would balance it towards the average result. Comparing to BC, the buffed damage deals 306 damage on the subject target. That's 306 damage every two seconds. Black Cleaver deals 152 damage per strike and in the time frame of two seconds, you have 3.2 attacks. Of course, the same is for Trinity Force, but from these 3.2 attacks, one would be buffed (306 damage) and two would be 123 damage hits. In those two seconds, Black Cleaver does ~456 damage and Trinity Force does 552. It's a difference that closes faster. Lets do it, then: Black Cleaver hits: It takes 6,86 hits to reach the 1K threshold. 124+136+4,86*152. Lets round up to 7, that way you will give 1020 damage in 4.36 seconds. Trinity Force: Assuming you make your passive always proc on the 2 seconds, and you attack 1.602 times per second, then in four seconds you will have proced twice and had 6,4 attacks. 306+123+123+123+306+123 = 1104 damage in 6 attacks in a time interval of 3.74 seconds. It's really just one attack less. If you stretch it to more damage, Black Cleaver will surpass TF. And remember that's assuming you mantain the TF bonus each 2 seconds, which is kinda difficlult for trundle, since you would have to stop attacking to do spell animations, so the real deal would be off some decent chunk of damage.
Zapper, I understand your concern with damage over time, but, as you seen, it's not really that big difference when you put the numbers. It takes one more attack off black cleaver to reach the 1k barrier than from Trinity Force, and it turns the tables after on higher damage benchmarks. If we were to put something with spike and reaching the 1k damage, then Trinity Force would be an interesting candidate, bu truly random and unreliable.
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A few other things:
Trundle is never going to realistically farm up 1850g for a BF sword without saving up so much gold that his team loses unnecessary map control. Trundle needs to be buying oracles, wards, and all that good stuff. The pieces of triforce are very cheap and obtainable and each third of the triforce provides very respectable power boost. Black cleaver, to me, is entirely off the table as a core for trundle.
Ghostblade is nice but it provides comparatively less utility + it overlaps a lot more than what trundle already brings to the table than triforce (burst attack speed and mobility). Triforce keeps trundle consistently faster while not in contaminate.
The mana from sheen is not to be undervalued. . Contaminate is still a decently expensive skill and you'll be using it a lot.
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On March 12 2011 03:01 necrosed wrote: You don't need the AP and the mana is negligible. Trundle's mana costs are very low that with base regen +SS +Meditation you fuel all your needs of mana. Also, you already get diminishing returns on the movespeed bonus since you have decent base MS +MS from utility AND ms from W. So what we're really looking at is crit damage, burst from Sheen, attack speed, health bonus and slow. The crit, damage, attack speed and burst were taken into consideration already on the DPS calculations, so what stays in question is pahge's slow and +health. Like I said, you get better bonuses from having a Black Cleaver+Giant's Belt, that can be turned later into a frozen mallet. Will you miss the slow? I don't think you should, since you have mad MS from W and crazy slow+pathblocker on E. Chasing isn't exactly a problem for trundle. I respect DontMashMe's and OddOne's opinions as players, but if you don't bring better reasoning than "he said so" it's really not a good piece of advice. Maybe they really haven't put much thought on it or haven't stopped to think about it. Stonewall008's goes for Brutalizer, Phage and Youmuu's, for instance, which is in concordance with my opinion and calculations. Like I said, in my opinion all those little extra bonuses are missable. The only good thing about Triforce is that it only takes one item slot.
you don't need the AP, true the mana is negligible, false. 200 mana is like a 33% increase on trundle at level 13ish or whenever you get triforce trundle's mana costs are low, true. with base regen + ss + meditation you fuel all your mana needs, false. you should give every blue after the first or second to your caster anyways. diminishing returns from movespeed bonus, false. in fact i would say movespeed quints + triforce on trundle are what MAKE him such a threat (dontmashme runs exp quints though) because his mobility in the jungle is unparalleled by anyone but rammus and sometimes shaco. the diminishing returns on the W movespeed bonus is true but W isn't always on, unlike triforce's movespeed bonus ironically, crit damage is the LAST thing that trundle needs from triforce (besides the ap). your job is to ult the tank, stick to a carry and keep their attack down with Q and their speed down with pillar and triforce procs, not to instagib them with massive attack damage.
i used to be a proponent of cleaver on irelia because i knew she could get multiple hits on people because of her slow and i thought it would wreck. i did the math and it made sense. but it failed pretty hard. then people were saying do triforce on her and i was like nahhhh and here it is, the best build in the game soo...
not to mention triforce is great for demolishing towers because you can throwdown W and attack for triforce proc->attack->instaQ for a double hit + triforce proc->attack a creep so your Q goes on cooldown->pillar and attack for triforce proc->attack->instaQ rinse and repeat
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On March 12 2011 03:48 Juicyfruit wrote: A few other things:
Trundle is never going to realistically farm up 1850g for a BF sword without saving up so much gold that his team loses unnecessary map control. Trundle needs to be buying oracles, wards, and all that good stuff. The pieces of triforce are very cheap and obtainable and each third of the triforce provides very respectable power boost. Black cleaver, to me, is entirely off the table as a core for trundle.
Ghostblade is nice but it provides comparatively less utility + it overlaps a lot more than what trundle already brings to the table than triforce (burst attack speed and mobility). Triforce keeps trundle consistently faster while not in contaminate.
The mana from sheen is not to be undervalued. . Contaminate is still a decently expensive skill and you'll be using it a lot.
oh yeah i meant to write all this in my post too ideally your backs in the jungle are 1) after three camps or after an entire clear, buying either long sword and boots, or madreds, or wriggles if you got a kill, and a pink for dragon 2) just before/after first dragon fight, where you have to look at how your farm is (did you cover a lane and get good gold income? did you get some kills? did your team get dragon?) and at BEST, ABSOLUTE BEST if you got several kills and dragon, you'll have about 1500-2100 gold at this point. usually here is where you buy your sheen, some wards, pots, maybe upgrade to mercs 3) after a couple towers have been taken and it's time to group. again, at best you're gonna have about 1600 gold here, perfect time to buy another component for triforce or complete triforce if you did well early
here's what you need to consider for a BF sword purchase: are you able to help your team and get kills without outputting a lot of damage (only having wriggles)? the answer with trundle is yes, because your ult does true damage and pillar does no damage. therefore, is a BF sword going to help you help your team? no, because it won't increase your ult damage or reduction, nor will it increase the slow or utility of pillar. will a zeal help you get around the map faster and gank more? yes. will a phage proc a slow that might seal the deal on a kill and give you enough HP to lead the charge? yes. are they both cheaper than BF sword? yes.
if the problem of your ganks is that your team is all tanks and you NEED damage, then i'd consider the BF sword. but in a balanced team comp, the utility of triforce trumps a bit of extra damage every time
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also i had a long talk about trundle with dontmashme and he's considering toying with BR in his trundle build as the other damage item but he hasn't found a comfortable way of putting it in there yet, and definitely not before triforce... and after you need tank items so yeah...
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On March 12 2011 03:01 necrosed wrote:
Zapper, I understand your concern with damage over time, but, as you seen, it's not really that big difference when you put the numbers. It takes one more attack off black cleaver to reach the 1k barrier than from Trinity Force, and it turns the tables after on higher damage benchmarks. If we were to put something with spike and reaching the 1k damage, then Trinity Force would be an interesting candidate, bu truly random and unreliable. Understandable. Would be neat if someone wrote a simulation tool to crunch say 500 or so iterations to help smooth out things like IE with crits. Coming from WoW and min maxing gear from a simulator, looking at dps #s on inconsistent damage just irked me. Sorry if it looked like I was being brash. I'm loving the discussion going on. Specially the one adding ad runes to shave off time on wraiths.
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Yes, farming that BF sword sucks. I've been going for Brutalizer, Phage, Youmuus, Tank.
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after wriggle triforce banshee i'm starting to like warmogs. you'll get infinite armor and MR from your ult... having double warmogs on top of that gives you like 7k HP with 300 armor and MR. it's pretty fucking hilarious
RIP rammus
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United States37500 Posts
Rammus is still top notch. dat taunt Trundle has strengths but that doesn't diminish powerball/taunt.
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I think what he meant is that Trundle simply hard-counters Rammus in teamfights.
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Marshall Islands3404 Posts
just build your wriggles, then pick youmuu or tri-force after buying negatron. Then rest tank gear.
build ends up looking like
cloth armor + 5hp razors + boots wriggles + merc treads + negatron wriggles + merc treads + negatron + triforce -OR- ghostblade wriggles + merc treads + banshee veil + triforce -OR- ghostblade + randuin's
finish with 6th item of your choice depending on game
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Do you do a sustained jungling route? If nothing unusual happens I'll usually do blue -> wolves -> wraith -> twins -> b -> boots and then red -> gankathon.
You can definitely grab red first and then gank... BUT I think his ganking with red buff is a lot stronger with boots
I'll then do wriggles, merc treads, and if I get a kill or they ward too much I'll get an oracle.
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Marshall Islands3404 Posts
yea if your an experienced trundle player, oracle is another great pickup, just like on shaco as hes very hard to catch once you get the hang of your limits
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I generally do either the Blue Buff to red buff cleanup run if circunstances allow me to, go b after dual golems/lizard and buy boots and wards. I also do the wraith jack 5HITCOMBO route when I feel confortable enough of walking there. My usage of the sustained route is when I feel I might get invaded by the enemy. so I wipe the most camps. If I notice he warded my jungle, I try to setup a gank inside my jungle with my allies, baiting them.
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Oh man, just realized I used total AD on Trinity force, where it should be just Base AD.
I recognize the usefulness of building triforce, since you're jungling and need to spend a lot of money on wards/elixir/oracle's, but still, you're spending your hard to get money in something that doesn't pay off as better as some items. I totally understand the reasoning behind not buying Black Cleaver, since BF is really expensive. For that reason I'm starting to build Brutalizer, Phage, tank, upgrading both to Youmuus/Frozen Mallet.
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On March 12 2011 16:37 Brees wrote: just build your wriggles, then pick youmuu or tri-force after buying negatron. Then rest tank gear.
build ends up looking like
cloth armor + 5hp razors + boots wriggles + merc treads + negatron wriggles + merc treads + negatron + triforce -OR- ghostblade wriggles + merc treads + banshee veil + triforce -OR- ghostblade + randuin's
finish with 6th item of your choice depending on game
you get your negatron before sheen/phage? doesn't that make your damage output come reaaaallly late? i dunno, i focus more on counterjungling and dragon control than ganking with trundle (unless there's a solo laner that has no escape summoners) so maybe i get a bit underfarmed but i still usually get my triforce from the 25-27 minute range if i'm not getting kills... wouldn't a negatron make your triforce wayyyyy too late?
tapioca, as for route, trundle can literally start anywhere on the map. it's bullshit that red camp alone doesn't get you to 2 imo so you can't gank immediately after red. his red level 2 gank with pillar would be devastating but most people still have their summoners at that point anyways.
my new route is enemy golem->blue (no smite, kinda scary)->wolves->wraiths->my golem->back'n'buy->red->their wolves or their wraiths if gank's not an option
dontmashme's route is blue->wolves->wraiths->golems->red->their wolves->back'n'buy->gank
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Well, maybe with one Exp Quint you can do red -> gank level 2.
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On March 13 2011 03:05 necrosed wrote: Well, maybe with one Exp Quint you can do red -> gank level 2. You need 2 exp quints and the exp mastery.
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so i decided to try your cleaver+mallet build in bot-lane trundle before i conclusively say it's worse
i like the extra HP for when i ult their tank, even more EHP for me the mallet 100% slow completely unnecessary the cleaver will never get full 4 stacks because of how hard it is to consecutively hit people as a melee dps UNLESS they stand and fight you. which would be dumb because you're trundle. i really missed the triforce procs on towers *LOL* i also direly missed the MS. i specced 0/21/9 instead of 1/14/15 since i was in lane as well i'd rather have SotD than ghostblade on trundle
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Yep, Clever will never get 4 stacks, but mainly because it maxes out at 3.
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If you want to try *my* build, try 1/8/21 with Ghostblade Mallet :3 Yeah, from my testing Cleaver isn't put at its maximum with Trundle. I like the poking of Trinity Force, but I think they're (TF and BC) still subpar. If you want to try something different, try Last Whisper Mallet. While its unsynergistic if you attack the same target as your ult, it should give some positive results if you focus another person than your ult. Like ult your team main target and give the beatings to the secondary. I haven't tested Last Whisper yet, but it should be the best DPS item on Trundle if they have more than one person with armor >= 100.
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last whisper is bad on melee dps except rarely on nasus
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United States47024 Posts
On March 13 2011 08:09 necrosed wrote: I haven't tested Last Whisper yet, but it should be the best DPS item on Trundle if they have more than one person with armor >= 100. It gives you the best DPS assuming you're actually hitting them, but very often, those guys aren't the ones you want to be hitting (and even if they are, putting your ult on them makes them suddenly not have armor >= 100 anymore).
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I'm not too sure about G.A and banshees instead of stuff like FoN on trundle, he can run away so well it seems that regen and attack speed might be a better form of magic resist, but I haven't had enough experience. I go Spirit visage unless they have hardcore magic damage anyway. I guess hexdrinker if you don't like FoN.
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Trundle already breaks the 410 movespeed threshold with W, boots and utility tree, so the stat is halved.
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United States47024 Posts
On March 17 2011 09:26 Slayer91 wrote: I'm not too sure about G.A and banshees instead of stuff like FoN on trundle, he can run away so well it seems that regen and attack speed might be a better form of magic resist, but I haven't had enough experience. I go Spirit visage unless they have hardcore magic damage anyway. I guess hexdrinker if you don't like FoN. Why would you get Visage on Trundle? The only heal-based mechanic he has is his passive, which, while great for jungling, is IMO not relevant enough to itemize for. And Visage has received enough nerfs that it's a pretty hard sell for champs that aren't benefitting from the heal component.
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Visage isn't so much for the regen effect, though it does help your passive, and regen if you're going warmogs/FoN. It's simply a cheap way to get health, magic resist and CDR really fast. If you want to buy banshees you're investing a lot into mana and almost double the total gold. You can easily get visage and be 1.3 gold faster on your trinity force and have 10% extra CDR.
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United States47024 Posts
On March 17 2011 11:54 Slayer91 wrote: Visage isn't so much for the regen effect, though it does help your passive, and regen if you're going warmogs/FoN. It's simply a cheap way to get health, magic resist and CDR really fast. If you want to buy banshees you're investing a lot into mana and almost double the total gold. You can easily get visage and be 1.3 gold faster on your trinity force and have 10% extra CDR. I'd usually rush Trinity anyway. If I needed MR badly, I'd slot a neg cloak in before finishing Trinity, but IIRC in normal situations most people just beeline straight Trinity--you're not really 1.3k gold faster on Trinity Force when you're getting it before the aforementioned MR items.
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The phage/visage combo works great for a lot of hp as well though, and the 10% CDR helps with your sheen TF/Proc no Q's a lot. I dunno, it feels really powerful when I get spirit visage for its cost.
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Ok, so Trinity Force is pretty good. I apologize. Still, if you're looking for a second DPS item after it, go for Last Whisper or something with CDR.
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Agree that mallet if something you don't need on trundle. He's already an amazing chaser and has enough attack speed and Q hits that phage % chance is enough.
Last whisper is great because you're so mobile on trundle you can afford to hit tanks and wait for a ranged dps to get out of position instead of running around. That said, trundle also has very good dive-their-whole-team power with contaminate his ultimate on a tank and a warmogs, but its best combined with some other tanks initation.
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So I've been going Wriggle's/Boots/Triforce +Hog or Negatron as my first items, but I often find I don't do enough damage once I've completed my build and it's lategame. At some point I feel it would be useful to dump Wriggle's and pick up Madred's or even start with it, but I can't seem to determine when that might be.
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Just wondering on what yall's opinion of this jungle route is.
Blue, Wolves, wait for smite to come back up hit big ghost and get ghosts. Level three pillar then go ganking. I then complete my jungle and keep playing like normal. I have had success with it, but at relatively low ELO. I use the early ganks to keep the mid on their toes.
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United States47024 Posts
On June 29 2011 07:26 EvilCheeseMan wrote: Just wondering on what yall's opinion of this jungle route is.
Blue, Wolves, wait for smite to come back up hit big ghost and get ghosts. Level three pillar then go ganking. I then complete my jungle and keep playing like normal. I have had success with it, but at relatively low ELO. I use the early ganks to keep the mid on their toes. Why would you waste time waiting for smite? It's not like you get low doing wraiths.
And I would never *plan* around an off-beat gank like that. Take the opportunity if it arises (e.g. if their mid is overextended), but assess the situation after you clear wraiths. If you're deliberately slowing down your jungle, your gank has to accomplish something for it to be worthwhile.
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On June 29 2011 07:45 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2011 07:26 EvilCheeseMan wrote: Just wondering on what yall's opinion of this jungle route is.
Blue, Wolves, wait for smite to come back up hit big ghost and get ghosts. Level three pillar then go ganking. I then complete my jungle and keep playing like normal. I have had success with it, but at relatively low ELO. I use the early ganks to keep the mid on their toes. Why would you waste time waiting for smite? It's not like you get low doing wraiths. And I would never *plan* around an off-beat gank like that. Take the opportunity if it arises (e.g. if their mid is overextended), but assess the situation after you clear wraiths. If you're deliberately slowing down your jungle, your gank has to accomplish something for it to be worthwhile.
Good point on the smite. I carry 5 health pots and cloth to start so I can just eat an extra pot. Also, I usually play duo with people if not more. They know my Trundle and I tell them to let mid or bot push so I can get a good hit. It makes sense though to push off the gank if it will fail.
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You should be able to run a pretty standard jungle path to 4, Blue > Wolves > Wraiths > Red > Little Golems, if you're runed out you can usually have enough health left over to gank if you wait to Q until just after Auto attacks, without Runes ganking at that point can be kind of sketchy. Normally, Q W Q E Q R, but sometimes I'll E before W at level 2 if top lane is already over extending or if I want to pressure mid. If I think I can get away with it I'll do something like Q E Q(Wraiths to to 3), then try to force mid to burn summoners, then Red and back to mid if they burned the summoners. This is solely dependent on the match up in mid because your main job as jungler is to control your jungle and stay caught up in levels, ganks are more of a bonus when players make mistakes.
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Hi ,
Can you help me and point out reasons why Trundle is barely picked in LOL? If I knew all his current weakness I could better try and find ways how to counter them and improve my game. Thnx in advance
I'll start and give my assumptions . ( I have some 50+ Trundle jungle games behind me thou not the best text layout skills )
My build : 6x Apen 3xAD // 9x flat arm // 9x Mr's /lvl // 3x AD Golems -> Wraiths -> Wolves -> Blue -> BACK -> Wraiths -> Red -> Golems -> Gank Open Scepter -> Boots +2pots -> Wrigles -> Mercs -> Tri force or Aegis Goal: One lane won + solo dragon at lv6
Summary: Trundle is awesome in early game . Jungles fast and cheap ( No pots wasted ) . Ganks hard with Poop pillar and Red . With blue his Q is spamable and does serious dmg.
Now I reached my assumptions why Trundle isn't picked much : Mid game dmg -> Late game dmg These are ROUGH examples!!!
Trundle has Q and ''kinda'' R + auto attacks as his direct means of doing dmg. ( Jarvan has aoe Q aoe E + nuke R with utility // Irelia gets dmg from 4 skills + sustain etc) Since his dmg comes from auto attacks + Q with aspd boost from W ( and W is locked to area) he needs Items to increase dmg. Trundle is jungler and without burst to Ks so I find myself poor throughout all my games to buy items thus no dmg late game. I managed to finish Tri-force 5 out of my 50 games before game ended EVEN when my team was doing great and until Tri-force is made the separate parts don't provide much dmg besides utility. So quite often I just build Aegis and try to ward map / set up kills for my team and control dragon.
Trundle is also melee and has no hard CC or insta gap closer. (Trundle does have W and E both wery unique skills and reason why I find Trundle so fun , but it pales when compared to Jarvan Irelia Renek etc) Contaminate lets Trundle chase and position in fights to land E so your team-mates can snipe the separated enemies. I find that E actually works best in defence rather then offence. If you chase some1 for kill they will Shunpo/flash/dash/leap etc etc out of poop pilar. E is great when some1chases your mates and you land poop in between enemy and your mate, thus enemy can extend and die or back off.
My two other Junglers are Mumu and Rammus . Mumu has infamous R . Gap closer Q with dmg . Aoe W witch gets stronger as game goes on and enemy get more HP . E to farm free lanes and deal additional dmg in fights. Rammus chases and sets up ganks with Q . Gets free immortal mode with W . 3 sec taunt with E . Low CD R to farm and cripple ppl in team fights.
Reason why I pick Trundle above them in jungle : I HATE how mumu and rammus needs to open blue and get ganked 50% of time , their routes are so predictable, without blue they are screwed. Also I dislike poor dragon control on mumu and rammus as Wrigles Trundle owns dragon at 6 solo and afterwards can quickly repeat it each spawn + gets free ward each 3min. Without blue Trundle can still just wrigle creeps and continu farm to catch up.
TL:DR
Trundle trades his end game for awesome start game. You need to make your team get ahead in first 10+ minutes so they can cover your lack of dmg in late game. Control dragon and ward. Trundle doesn't get loads of kills and spends most of money on wards and building 1 big item per game.
Trundle is unique creature with fun skill set. Sadly underplayed , thus each time when I get my team ahead in game (with character I myself have seen 4 times in 400 games) I go to mid lane -> pres Shift + 4 and become a wery happy Troll
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tl;dr: Don't post guides when you have some basic wrong misconceptions that somehow still carry you through normal games with buddies.
Erhm.
a) MPen on Trundle. Wtf. Why? You're only use for that would be for your R and sacrificing ArPen for that is... bad. b) Amumu and Rammus can both open Golems, also opening Blue is stilll the best option for trundle since he has strong early ganks you want to capitalize on asap (with both buffs). The route you're suggesting is optimal for junglers that want to get their lvl 6 asap (Nocturne/Yi/Warwick) or if you expect to encounter heavy counterjungling. It's not the optimal full clear speed and therefore results in late ganks. Edit: And even if you want the fast lvl 6 route, wolves -> golems, back, blue -> full clear is the fastest way to level up. c) As any terrain spell, Trundles E is great both offensively and defensively. So they flashed over it? Nice, brb in 1min. A terrain spell is never only one thing. Jarv Ult and Anvia W have also tons of possible usages. d) Trundle not being strong lategame? Wat. Triforce/Atmogs works, Frozen Mallet/Atmogs works, I'd assume even wits end works. Trundle has huge anti-cc, AoE cc and an ult that makes him basicly invulnerable for the duration if used properly.
Your assumption that he's bad lategame most likely comes from you failing early.
The reason Trundle is rarely picked these days is that he has the same syndrome e.g. Olaf has. You need solid farm and/or lots of ganks to get the items for your insane lategame, basicly turning the jungle into a 3rd solo lane. Most teams want "real" tanks in the jungle since they need less farm and can still do their job (Amu/Rammus/Cho/Nunu) OR they want squishy assassin type junglers that can make carries explode the whole game long (Yi/Nocturne/Shaco).
Personally, when we have a strong tanky dps solo top (e.g. Jarv/Irelia/Yorick) I often opt for stuff like Olaf/Trundle/tanky versions of Noc/Yi since the need for a "pure" tank isn't that huge in those comps. When your team runs double AP or something not that tanky solo top, the "real" tank junglers are a better option.
For runes: ArPen/Armor/Mres per level should be standard on trundle. If you really want, throw in some AS runes.
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It wasn't ment to be guide , juts bunch of random IMO stuff I hoped to get some feedback on ( And I got it thnx )
A) Noob typo , was supposed to be Apen 10 and AD 9,6 to 3hit Wraith b) My games are with pugs. Even if some1 leashes Blue in next 10 sec you can expect 1-2 champs to come pay me a visit XD (I try tell my team not tot leash and leave me alone until at least 3x enemy champs can be seen on minimap , but they all rush to lanes as soon as creeps collide) . Getting killed or even driven back from Jungle is a huge setback and thus starting mini gols with Vamp scepter is way more calming. Also I like my blue late …. On champs I kill blue and do full run before B I loose blue buff as soon as I gank one lane ( Masteries 0/21/9 ) . Late blue lets me gank 2-3 lanes before it rans out ( Setback might be later blue respawn to give to your ap carries )
c) Ofc wasted sumoner is also nice.
d) That's not how I ment it. Trundle has great kit for endgame once he gets itemized , BUT I barely get enough funds for Tri force in my games not to mention 4-6 items. As I wrote Trundle gets his omph out of auto attacks and Q spam and those scale with AD and offence items. Good start game involves many successful ganks and demoralized enemy team = 20 minute surrender. Standard games all the kills go to ap/ad caries and the games in general don't have many kills and I find it hard to fund Trundles items with assists alone. Games where I fail I build Aegis and try to keep real dps alive. Same time Jarman/Irelia for example gets stronger just with Lvl's as their skills lvl up while Trundle with lv1 or 5 E wount kill more.
The reason Trundle is rarely picked these days is that he has the same syndrome e.g. Olaf has. You need solid farm and/or lots of ganks to get the items for your insane lategame
THIS tottaly agree and that's what I ment with bad mid-end game . Trundle doesn't get enough farm kills to fund his late game. He is decent , but ofc in competitive play ppl will want champion who brings more to play with same farm aka Mumu , Rammus as stuns / taunts don't need items .
Once again thnx for feedback PS: Some1 has replay's or streems featuring Trundle ?
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nightwalks i consider myself a very good trundle and i have a ton of experience playing him
you are correct in his early game being much stronger than his lategame, but he doesn't completely fall off lategame
one of his biggest strengths is that he's a 1v1 GOD especially against melee dps. i'm sure you can see how this lends itself to him being a top-tier counterjungler. when your AD is increased by 40 and your opponent's is decreased by 20 they have great incentive to not engage you alone. in the event that you get caught out of position in their jungle, your contaminate and pillar of filth make it so you'll nearly always escape
he can gank as early as level 2 (which i frequently do) and i nearly always get a kill or 2 blown summoners at level 2. he needs no leash for blue so his route is really flexible
my personal favorite is: enemy twin golems -> gank -> your blue -> wolves -> wraiths -> golems -> back/gank -> red -> gank
once you hit level 6 and have wriggles you can take dragon really really easily (unless you have bad luck with razor procs and don't get any)
in terms of item builds, in solo queue you'll always get enough gold to get triforce. in arraged 5s where you want to funnel the farm to real carries, it's better to build HP. i'll often start regrowth instead of cloth + 5, get an early philo, an early HoG, and then build into whatever HP items i can (phage, shurelias, aegis) because HP is fking BOSS on trundle. HP + your ult on their tank = you're alistar for 7 seconds or w/e it is. plus shurelia's and pillar is a game-changing combo for teamfights. their whole team slowed by 40% and your whole team sped up by 40%? yes please
anyways, enough talk. here's a replay of me playing trundle against some high elo players and doing pretty well. in my opinion this route and playstyle are the best way to play the troll \o/
http://www.mediafire.com/?494ftagp0h6bsc4
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Trundle and olaf both suffer from the same syndrome currently: as tanky jungle specialists, they rely on being super farmed in order to reach their full potential. That is hard to do in a jungle, especially when the alternative is fielding a broken laner top like jarman, udyr, ww, ect who can farm, never get pushed out of lane, and hit the super tanky-survive-till-everyone-else-is-dead mode a lot faster than jungles can.
ATM they suffer from a simple problem: their role can be filled better by someone else.
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United States47024 Posts
On July 15 2011 01:47 gtrsrs wrote:nightwalks i consider myself a very good trundle and i have a ton of experience playing him you are correct in his early game being much stronger than his lategame, but he doesn't completely fall off lategame one of his biggest strengths is that he's a 1v1 GOD especially against melee dps. i'm sure you can see how this lends itself to him being a top-tier counterjungler. when your AD is increased by 40 and your opponent's is decreased by 20 they have great incentive to not engage you alone. in the event that you get caught out of position in their jungle, your contaminate and pillar of filth make it so you'll nearly always escape he can gank as early as level 2 (which i frequently do) and i nearly always get a kill or 2 blown summoners at level 2. he needs no leash for blue so his route is really flexible my personal favorite is: enemy twin golems -> gank -> your blue -> wolves -> wraiths -> golems -> back/gank -> red -> gank once you hit level 6 and have wriggles you can take dragon really really easily (unless you have bad luck with razor procs and don't get any) in terms of item builds, in solo queue you'll always get enough gold to get triforce. in arraged 5s where you want to funnel the farm to real carries, it's better to build HP. i'll often start regrowth instead of cloth + 5, get an early philo, an early HoG, and then build into whatever HP items i can (phage, shurelias, aegis) because HP is fking BOSS on trundle. HP + your ult on their tank = you're alistar for 7 seconds or w/e it is. plus shurelia's and pillar is a game-changing combo for teamfights. their whole team slowed by 40% and your whole team sped up by 40%? yes please anyways, enough talk. here's a replay of me playing trundle against some high elo players and doing pretty well. in my opinion this route and playstyle are the best way to play the troll \o/ http://www.mediafire.com/?494ftagp0h6bsc4 The minigol jack feels a bit weak. It puts you up a bit of XP/gold, but at the risk of getting caught, and delaying your red gank, and is not all that disruptive against lots of blue-start junglers who might not get there till they respawn. I can see it being hugely disruptive vs. small clear junglers like Yi and Nocturne though.
Do you really skip Wriggles in arranged? I feel like the free ward plus massive increase in jungle speed (since Trundle is pretty much exclusively an autoattacker in jungle with an Aspd buff and autoattack timer reset, his speed benefits from Wriggles more than almost anyone else) is well worth it compared to the gp10 items, not to mention the early Dragon pressure you brought up yourself.
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On July 15 2011 02:41 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2011 01:47 gtrsrs wrote:nightwalks i consider myself a very good trundle and i have a ton of experience playing him you are correct in his early game being much stronger than his lategame, but he doesn't completely fall off lategame one of his biggest strengths is that he's a 1v1 GOD especially against melee dps. i'm sure you can see how this lends itself to him being a top-tier counterjungler. when your AD is increased by 40 and your opponent's is decreased by 20 they have great incentive to not engage you alone. in the event that you get caught out of position in their jungle, your contaminate and pillar of filth make it so you'll nearly always escape he can gank as early as level 2 (which i frequently do) and i nearly always get a kill or 2 blown summoners at level 2. he needs no leash for blue so his route is really flexible my personal favorite is: enemy twin golems -> gank -> your blue -> wolves -> wraiths -> golems -> back/gank -> red -> gank once you hit level 6 and have wriggles you can take dragon really really easily (unless you have bad luck with razor procs and don't get any) in terms of item builds, in solo queue you'll always get enough gold to get triforce. in arraged 5s where you want to funnel the farm to real carries, it's better to build HP. i'll often start regrowth instead of cloth + 5, get an early philo, an early HoG, and then build into whatever HP items i can (phage, shurelias, aegis) because HP is fking BOSS on trundle. HP + your ult on their tank = you're alistar for 7 seconds or w/e it is. plus shurelia's and pillar is a game-changing combo for teamfights. their whole team slowed by 40% and your whole team sped up by 40%? yes please anyways, enough talk. here's a replay of me playing trundle against some high elo players and doing pretty well. in my opinion this route and playstyle are the best way to play the troll \o/ http://www.mediafire.com/?494ftagp0h6bsc4 The minigol jack feels a bit weak. It puts you up a bit of XP/gold, but at the risk of getting caught, and delaying your red gank, and is not all that disruptive against lots of blue-start junglers who might not get there till they respawn. I can see it being hugely disruptive vs. small clear junglers like Yi and Nocturne though. Do you really skip Wriggles in arranged? I feel like the free ward plus massive increase in jungle speed (since Trundle is pretty much exclusively an autoattacker in jungle with an Aspd buff and autoattack timer reset, his speed benefits from Wriggles more than almost anyone else) is well worth it compared to the gp10 items, not to mention the early Dragon pressure you brought up yourself.
well, no it's extremely disruptive to blue starters, as they'll do wraiths and not have enough exp to do red, but no other camps to do. it delays an enemy gank by a good minute or so while they scramble around looking for what to do
i rarely get caught at minigolems, it doesn't put you up "a little" exp it's an entire level and free gank early, plus since trundle doesn't need a leash for blue it's worth it to start in the enemy jungle since you'll clear your own just fine
and errr... i didn't skip wriggles did i? i didn't mean skip wriggles in favor of HP, i meant skip triforce in favor of HP
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you ding 3 with blue, wolves, wraiths. Thats enough exp to do red. Minigol jack does nothing, especially when you consider that you can just b at 3.5, go do wolves again and ding 4 and gank.
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... twin golem jack is a free camp that your opponent cannot retaliate against, that leads to first blood top or blown summoners 90% of the time. trundle isn't about fast clears and needing red to gank. his level 2 gank is superb. he's an adaptive counterjungler. you will never die to any camp so you can do any camp at any time, which means that starting in their jungle is much more efficient because it (a)gives you extra camps, and (b)deprives the opponent of camps. this is not hard to understand. and many champs can't do red at 3 after getting low from wraiths (which have the highest dps of any camp iirc). pirate, yorrick, xin, mumu, nocturne, yi, rammus, lee sin... in fact the only junglers who i think minigolem DOESN'T fuck are trundle himself, ww, udyr, and nunu.
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Your jungling sucks then. Every single one of those champs (save yorick, as I havent jungled him to test) can do a standard blue-wolves-wraiths-red-gols clear. So no. Minigol jack fucks no one. Not to mention that if you jack minigols right as they start, they will spawn again by the time you finish red anyway. So basically you slow down your jungle for absolutely nothing.
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yea, tons of jungles have absolutely no problem with doing a full blue --> wolves --> wraiths --> red --> golems clear >_>
i think it might be due to your armor/level seals instead of flat armor.
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i fail to see how taking a different camp slows me down at all, while it opens up gank opportunities and hurts the other jungler. just watch the replay. you're just plain wrong, that's all there is to it, i'm sorry
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United States47024 Posts
On July 15 2011 03:33 gtrsrs wrote: ... twin golem jack is a free camp that your opponent cannot retaliate against, that leads to first blood top or blown summoners 90% of the time. trundle isn't about fast clears and needing red to gank. his level 2 gank is superb. he's an adaptive counterjungler. you will never die to any camp so you can do any camp at any time, which means that starting in their jungle is much more efficient because it (a)gives you extra camps, and (b)deprives the opponent of camps. this is not hard to understand. and many champs can't do red at 3 after getting low from wraiths (which have the highest dps of any camp iirc). pirate, yorrick, xin, mumu, nocturne, yi, rammus, lee sin... in fact the only junglers who i think minigolem DOESN'T fuck are trundle himself, ww, udyr, and nunu. Its hardly a free camp seeing as a top/bot laner leaving their team's blue can very likely pass you on the way to lane. The only way they WOULDN'T pass you is if they're retarded and going through jungle/river to get to lane, facechecking all the easy FB spots along the way.
How is gank after twingol jack any different from gank after blue? A level 2 gank isn't an argument for or against twingol jack.
And those example junglers are pretty poor:
Xin, Nocturne, and Yi are all small clear junglers that clear a round of small camps before doing a full clear. You can royally screw them if they started wolves but there's a 50% chance they start twingols and you just waste time going there, and potentially can get caught.
Pirate, Rammus, and Amumu all do red perfectly fine without twingols. Pirate gets low if he got Q instead of W at 2 for a fast level 2 gank (which potentially delays his clear long enough for the twingols to respawn anyway), and Mummy gets low if he went Regrowth (which is why TheOddOne and Dan Dinh start Cloth+5pot so they have the flexibility to handle stupid shit like weird steals), but under normal setups, they clear wraiths at high enough HP to go straight to red.
Don't play Lee Sin but isn't he also a small clear jungler? Also haven't played a ton of jungle Yorick but from testing his sustain is stupid good--with a good leash, a cloth+5pot start finishes with 2-3 pots remaining and has zero trouble doing red after wraiths.
On July 15 2011 04:04 gtrsrs wrote: i fail to see how taking a different camp slows me down at all, while it opens up gank opportunities and hurts the other jungler. just watch the replay. you're just plain wrong, that's all there is to it, i'm sorry It doesn't slow you down but it pushes back your red gank (which is considerably stronger than your level 2 gank) to the point where the solo lanes are hitting 6 and many of them (e.g. Irelia, Alistar, Annie, Malzahar, etc.), are gaining abilities that make them harder to gank, and all lanes are bluepilling for wards.
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United States47024 Posts
Just as a follow-up to the topic of a level 1 twingol jack, I tested this in a custom game, and if their laner leaves the enemy blue at 1:30, they pass you doing twingols when you start them at ~1:50 when you've gotten maybe 3 hits on the minigolems--you'll never practically get both minigolems, and you'll only get 1 of them if you use smite, AND if they got vision of you, you lose your level 2 gank opportunity because they saw you there. You can't start them when they spawn at 1:40 because the creeps give vision of you when they pass the jungle entrance near the inner turret.
Obviously if they don't go the safe way to lane they'll miss you, but in that case, your team could set up an easy first blood with good CV usage/some level 1 wards, which is way better than a twingol jack.
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minis spawn at 1:40, you hit the one further from the enemy base once and then Q it, and then pull it approximately 1 champion's length away from their base where you'll be hidden. trundle takes them down in < 17 seconds iirc. your finish the last hit on the second golem as the creeps meet bot/top. knowing this, your teammates can wait in the triangle bush until you're done and come to your assistance/get an early kill. additionally, good players don't go through the jungle in the early game because the most brush is in the jungle
why don't you watch the replay i posted, where i not only successfully stole twin golems even despite being seen (i should have pulled them further), but then followed it up successfully with a level 2 gank against a 2.2k elo player which won the lane for my renekton
i promise you there is more to this game than theorycrafting i have used this route since i created it a few months ago and like i said, you get fb or blown summoners 90% of the time. it works especially well against baddies but as you can see from my replay it works against players of all skill levels because it's unexpected. that's the beauty of trundle
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Don't play Lee Sin but isn't he also a small clear jungler?
can do whatever you want, fully capable of 4 minute blue clear
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Just like to say this guy is vastly underated. He is a very high tier jungler and he just a debuff machine if u build him tanky. Ppl need to give this guy a chance. Especailly with the upcoming lee sin nerfs .
Mark my words he is hidden tier 1!!!!!!
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I'd play trundle. The only thing which is limiting him is his closer which is just an MS + tenacity boost. He has the udyr problem which kinda blows because stealing stats is 2fun
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It's no secret that Trundle is tier 1 jungler , but he needs more then jungle farm to stay strong through all the game. He is also tier 1 when it comes to teem fights in jungle , pilar es 2 gud .
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Hybrid Trundle is OP. The healing from the ult has a 1.2 AP Ratio if it runs for it's full duration and benefits from spell vamp. It's a bitch to 1v1 him and he can almost always get away if needed. His ganks are also pretty strong and his passive let's him dive decently well if you use Pillar of Filth to block that little small area between the tower and the wall that champions love to dance in.
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Trundle, by his skills and stats, is really fucking strong.
Too bad he needs retarded amounts of jungle farm to compete :O
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Exactly what qualifies as retarded amounts of farm? I've found he does decently well with the farm from the jungle + maybe 1-2 kills.
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United States47024 Posts
On September 28 2011 00:52 STS17 wrote: Exactly what qualifies as retarded amounts of farm? I've found he does decently well with the farm from the jungle + maybe 1-2 kills. The level of farm Trundle needs relative to the other team is sort of an odd thing--he has no trouble keeping up if there's a farmed bruiser or tank on the other team (e.g. Cho'gath) because his ultimate lets him cut down their survivability while scaling up his own (in other words, he scales off their farm). But vs. a farmed AP carry, he needs laner-level farm to really compete (as in that situation, he can't skimp on building survivability when there are no suitably fed ult targets, which means likewise he needs that much more farm because he can't sacrifice damage).
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trundle is second best jungler after lee sin , its getting fotm in pro tournaments - since lee sin is always banned - ( he kills slower compare to udin or noctune but has better gangs and overall team synergy)
Build him 21 suport rest 9 tank spec.
Trinity first item with mercs - if heavy cc , else zerkers boots .
then randwins and banshee or something similar.
Max q and e first for better gangs leave w for the later lvls.
good item order is boots - wingles - heart of gold - mercury or zerkers - trinity
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Why would you go 0-9-21 in masteries if you're going to jungle? Also, he doesn't need boots to clear the jungle fast, I'd get cloth over them anyday, faster wriggles, faster faster clears.
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hey I just bought trundle and I hardly see him play and got a few questions (cause no one knows when i ask)
when he uses his ult and steals armor/magic res and all that does he keep those stats for the whole game? Would you benefit from using your ult lots on baron or something?
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You don't keep the stats for the whole game, only for as long as the ult lasts. You can use it on baron/dragon (helps a lot with killing them) but apparently once the jungle remake comes into play you will no longer be able to.
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Okay so you only keep the stats for those 6 seconds when it's doubled?
Jungle remake ? Whaaaaaaaaaaa??
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On September 30 2011 07:16 Alaric wrote: Why would you go 0-9-21 in masteries if you're going to jungle? Also, he doesn't need boots to clear the jungle fast, I'd get cloth over them anyday, faster wriggles, faster faster clears.
1-8-21 is typically for super fast smite cd, iirc this is what oddone uses on most of his junglers because it offers the most flexibility in counterjungling
edit:
On October 21 2011 06:30 alokin wrote: Okay so you only keep the stats for those 6 seconds when it's doubled?
Jungle remake ? Whaaaaaaaaaaa??
also i wouldn't hold ur breath for the jungle remake
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Wish there'd be another free trundle week he's so much fun
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United States47024 Posts
On October 21 2011 06:52 barbsq wrote: 1-8-21 is typically for super fast smite cd, iirc this is what oddone uses on most of his junglers because it offers the most flexibility in counterjungling
Oddone stopped doing that ages ago. Nowadays he uses 16/0/14 on basically everybody, Trundle included.
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I think Saint still runs 21/0/9 on Trundle, and I've always liked it more than other options.
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Started using Trundle in the jungle because he didn't seem popular at all compared to other jungles, and he's so boss. I go 9/21/0 for him, and usually get vamp scepter. He's pretty much the only jungler I'd still feel safe getting vamp on because of his high sustain. His pillar is way too good for ganks, and his ultimate is just amazing. I have no idea why more people don't play him, seriously. I honestly don't see any flaws with Trundle... at all. My skill order with him is usually Q, W, Q/E, Q/E, Q. I don't usually go to gank right away which is why don't take E at level 2. I find W is pretty good even if you see a possible gank, because you get a nice movement speed buff on it and can easily at least make them waste a flash.
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yeah i recently bought him... depending on my team ( as with all junglers) i either do amazingly or very poorly. Pillar placement took a tiny bit of practice but it has to be amongst my top 5 favourite skills . His ulti just renders high armour/mr tanks completely untanky it's hilarious to play xD!
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On March 25 2012 10:54 Dark_Chill wrote: Started using Trundle in the jungle because he didn't seem popular at all compared to other jungles, and he's so boss. I go 9/21/0 for him, and usually get vamp scepter. He's pretty much the only jungler I'd still feel safe getting vamp on because of his high sustain. His pillar is way too good for ganks, and his ultimate is just amazing. I have no idea why more people don't play him, seriously. I honestly don't see any flaws with Trundle... at all. My skill order with him is usually Q, W, Q/E, Q/E, Q. I don't usually go to gank right away which is why don't take E at level 2. I find W is pretty good even if you see a possible gank, because you get a nice movement speed buff on it and can easily at least make them waste a flash. id always max q probably qwqe he's deceptively strong in jungle, alot of people really under estimate that damage sap from Q
Also ive heard he's the only champion who isnt UP/OP since he hasnt ever been nerfed/buffed
ever
Speaking of trundle
is there a typo in his lore or is genteel really what its called?
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genteel is the correct word
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On March 25 2012 12:42 arb wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2012 10:54 Dark_Chill wrote: Started using Trundle in the jungle because he didn't seem popular at all compared to other jungles, and he's so boss. I go 9/21/0 for him, and usually get vamp scepter. He's pretty much the only jungler I'd still feel safe getting vamp on because of his high sustain. His pillar is way too good for ganks, and his ultimate is just amazing. I have no idea why more people don't play him, seriously. I honestly don't see any flaws with Trundle... at all. My skill order with him is usually Q, W, Q/E, Q/E, Q. I don't usually go to gank right away which is why don't take E at level 2. I find W is pretty good even if you see a possible gank, because you get a nice movement speed buff on it and can easily at least make them waste a flash. id always max q probably qwqe he's deceptively strong in jungle, alot of people really under estimate that damage sap from Q Also ive heard he's the only champion who isnt UP/OP since he hasnt ever been nerfed/buffed ever Speaking of trundle is there a typo in his lore or is genteel really what its called?
i think leona also falls into this category but a lot of the no buffs/no nerfs thing is because no one really plays trundle or cares about trundle because he's boring as fuck. no skillshots, no flashy skills, no real ultimate to speak of, no gap-closer. he's just like the most vanilla champ in the game. he wasn't BAD pre-jungle-remake in fact he might have even been above average, he was just zzzzzz. i don't really think he can keep up with the top 5 junglers in the new jungle though. even ww/pirate have a pretty tough time keeping up with the big 5, and i think they're a bit better than trundle. and since he's so boring, no one tries to play him a ton and find out that he's OP/UP, so no one gives riot feedback, so they don't change him. don't get me wrong, i was once the biggest trundle supporter on TL, i was one of the first people to really use him and refine him in serious play, but as riot has released more and more fun champs, trundle just sees no light in my rotation. that combined with the lack of a truly good skin, imowic
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Opinions on top lane trundle?
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On March 26 2012 17:26 anmolsinghmzn2009 wrote: Opinions on top lane trundle?
Pick him into Yorick. Laugh because your passive heals your more when ghouls die than what they harrass'd you for. Win lane easily.
As for matchups other than Yorick... never played em.
/shrug
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On March 26 2012 17:26 anmolsinghmzn2009 wrote: Opinions on top lane trundle? Really good against certain stuff, Yorick and Riven come to mind. I'd much rather have him jungling though because I feel he does not scale too well with items, just based on how good his kit works without them.
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On March 26 2012 17:26 anmolsinghmzn2009 wrote: Opinions on top lane trundle?
Its VERY good imo. His sustain once you get wriggles is ridiculous. You can shut down pretty much every AD based champion.
A few pointers/tips:
His skillset compliments ganks very nicely (try to use pillar after they flash)
His W provides ALOT of splitpushing power, so try to abuse that. (You can almost always get away, just remember WARDS!)
When you get your wriggles, you can play him shyvana style. Counter jungle as much as you can. Trundle gets sooooo many wriggles procs. Your mobility from W and slow from E will allow you to escape easily.
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On March 26 2012 19:24 iCanada wrote: Pick him into Yorick. Laugh because your passive heals your more when ghouls die than what they harrass'd you for. Win lane easily.
Each ghoul heals you for about 5 hp at level 1, 10 hp at level 6 and 20 hp at level 9. What kind of runes/masteries/items do you use so these figures can outheal Yorick's harrass?
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On March 26 2012 20:44 NpG)Explosive wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2012 19:24 iCanada wrote: Pick him into Yorick. Laugh because your passive heals your more when ghouls die than what they harrass'd you for. Win lane easily.
Each ghoul heals you for about 5 hp at level 1, 10 hp at level 6 and 20 hp at level 9. What kind of runes/masteries/items do you use so these figures can outheal Yorick's harrass?
I would use the 9/21/0 masteries, going into the movement speed, cdr, and hp/5 points.
I would suggest these runes against a lane bully like Yorick:
ArPen/AD Marks Armor Seals MR Glyphs (flat or pr/lvl) HP/5 Quints
This would give you maximum sustain, which you need against Yorick imo.
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I find trundle falls off really hard late game, he's only really good to ulti shyvana when shes in dragon form :D it's actually really awsome to 1v1 shyvana cuz she can't do shit to trundle with agony
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On March 26 2012 20:44 NpG)Explosive wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2012 19:24 iCanada wrote: Pick him into Yorick. Laugh because your passive heals your more when ghouls die than what they harrass'd you for. Win lane easily.
Each ghoul heals you for about 5 hp at level 1, 10 hp at level 6 and 20 hp at level 9. What kind of runes/masteries/items do you use so these figures can outheal Yorick's harrass?
9/21/0 taking everything that reduces those freaking minions damage imo.
EDIT: Forgot runes, derp. Since you get the 10% arp from offense i'd recommend ad marks, armor seals, a comibnation of flat mres and scaling mres blues (you can go either, it's personal choice) and either AD, MS or hp5 quints.
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I've been playing trundle as a jungler since he's free this week...wow, he's amazing. He can clear the jungle faster than anyone I've ever played with; That includes Rammus, Amumu, Fiddlesticks, Maokai, Master Yi, Nautilus, Nocturne, Skarner, and Warwick. However, I haven't played with some of the top junglers like Udyr, Shyvana, Lee Sin, or Shaco.
He clears the jungle super fast, only needs the first blue buff, and clears it with high health (usually I'm at full health). Once he gets to level 6 and has wriggles, he can solo the dragon.
He doesn't have the best ganks in the game, but he does have ganking power with pillar, contaminate, and red buff.
At the very least, he's the best solo queue jungler I've come across, since he can solo dragon and jungle farm as long as you want.
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Trundle definitely does not clear the jungle faster than Maokai (first few clears), Master Yi, Nocturne, Skarner, Udyr, or Shyvana.
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I wouldn't call him a good soloQ jungler, because he needs farm badly, so if you teammates screw up you've got a choice between helping them (detrimental to farm unless you manage to make every gank a kill) or farm the jungle and show up ready to mug those bullies. And other junglers scale way better than him off jungle farm.
He's still fun with that unique pillar stuff and an ult to make Rammus cry rivers, but he's nearly not as efficient in soloQ than in the old jungle.
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On April 06 2012 00:17 koreasilver wrote: Trundle definitely does not clear the jungle faster than Maokai (first few clears), Master Yi, Nocturne, Skarner, Udyr, or Shyvana. He's fast, but he's not the fastest. Once Riven gets going she's definitely faster.
I think you're forgetting everyone's favorite Doctor, too.
The main reason I play Trundle is the fact that Pillar is just such a fun move. Everyone else seems to do his thing better than him though, makes me kinda sad.
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I've been trying trundle, and he is a very fast jungle from my experience...I was having so success building him as reccomended though, I feel like he works alot better build quite tanky, and I didnt really feel the need to build wriggles on him, I had more success with wits/atmogs/hog. I really feel like he just destroys jungle camps and doesnt need wriggles.
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I actually don't think Yi's that fast either. He takes a while for alpha strike to get going and even then... Trundle's faster than ww and the slowbies but still slow as f***. There are a few champs that can clear fast like I think a cho that maxes E... but then you'd have a cho that maxed E. Udyr is definitely faster than trundle.. and the speed does matter.
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On April 09 2012 15:59 obesechicken13 wrote: I actually don't think Yi's that fast either. He takes a while for alpha strike to get going and even then... Trundle's faster than ww and the slowbies but still slow as f***. There are a few champs that can clear fast like I think a cho that maxes E... but then you'd have a cho that maxed E. Udyr is definitely faster than trundle.. and the speed does matter. yi could prob be faster than udyr or shyv if you got really really really lucky with alpha strike procs(i.e ever time you use it)
i liked running straight attack speed with a vamp scepter start on trundle, really though he cleared fairly well
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attack speed is non-synergetic with trundle because his AS is tuned with his CDR in the early levels so that you can rhythmically aa-Q-aa, and additional AS can fk that up. try running arpen + AD or just flat AD instead of AS, you will actually be faster this way with trundle
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On April 09 2012 15:59 obesechicken13 wrote: I actually don't think Yi's that fast either. He takes a while for alpha strike to get going and even then... Trundle's faster than ww and the slowbies but still slow as f***. There are a few champs that can clear fast like I think a cho that maxes E... but then you'd have a cho that maxed E. Udyr is definitely faster than trundle.. and the speed does matter.
I max E quite alot if they have not alot of CC, very fast jungle with wits and honestly levels in W are cool with the longer silence, but its a tradeoff with the jungle speed and damage.
Trundle AS with Q may be nonsynergystic, but the attack Q attack rythm is gone pretty much the second you get an AS item, so there is no real reason to avoid it unless you are going no AS at all, which is silly because his base damage with Q is already so good.
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disagree - runes are supposed to get you through the earliest part of the game BEFORE you buy items, especially as a jungler. do i notice the 10 arpen i run on skarner by the time i have wit's + glacial + wriggles + mercs? of course not. likewise, the early 15% AS will hurt you early on trundle and then be unnoticeable by lategame or even midgame. especially because trundle has a hard time just standing and fighting people for extended durations with no hard cc or gapcloser.
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On April 09 2012 16:08 gtrsrs wrote: attack speed is non-synergetic with trundle because his AS is tuned with his CDR in the early levels so that you can rhythmically aa-Q-aa, and additional AS can fk that up. try running arpen + AD or just flat AD instead of AS, you will actually be faster this way with trundle
Agree here. Also keep in mind that for your first clear, you will have blue buff, which means you can contaminate at every camp, which gives you +20% AS.
btw, there's 2 main ArPen breakpoints for junglers:
-13, this is all small monsters except the buffs -20, this is all monsters except baron (120 armor)
technically dragon has 21 armor, but 20 arpen is damn close to true damage.
13 arpen is 3 quints + 2 marks 20 arpen is 3 quints + 6 marks
I usually go for 20 arpen, it's effective against champions even into late-game, and once I reach mid-game I'm only jungling for the buffs anyway.
edit: though I am curious to know what the optimal early-game AS is for trundle, both with and without blue buff. I usually put 4 points into Alacrity mastery so I can get Weapon Expertise. If those 4 points in Alacrity are wasted I'd put the 5 points elsewhere. I also use the remainder of my marks on AS. If those are wasted, I'd rather use them for flat AD or AD/level.
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On April 10 2012 00:39 BlasiuS wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2012 16:08 gtrsrs wrote: attack speed is non-synergetic with trundle because his AS is tuned with his CDR in the early levels so that you can rhythmically aa-Q-aa, and additional AS can fk that up. try running arpen + AD or just flat AD instead of AS, you will actually be faster this way with trundle Agree here. Also keep in mind that for your first clear, you will have blue buff, which means you can contaminate at every camp, which gives you +20% AS. btw, there's 2 main ArPen breakpoints for junglers: -13, this is all small monsters except the buffs -20, this is all monsters except baron (120 armor) technically dragon has 21 armor, but 20 arpen is damn close to true damage. 13 arpen is 3 quints + 2 marks 20 arpen is 3 quints + 6 marks I usually go for 20 arpen, it's effective against champions even into late-game, and once I reach mid-game I'm only jungling for the buffs anyway. edit: though I am curious to know what the optimal early-game AS is for trundle, both with and without blue buff. I usually put 4 points into Alacrity mastery so I can get Weapon Expertise. If those 4 points in Alacrity are wasted I'd put the 5 points elsewhere. I also use the remainder of my marks on AS. If those are wasted, I'd rather use them for flat AD or AD/level.
I have been running alacrity and just 10% worth of AS reds, and I get pretty perfect AAQAA timing for the first few clears. I'' try running AD and see how that works.
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I have no idea how you find Trundle fast... he is so freaking slow. I play Shyvana or Mundo when I jungle and whenever I face a Trundle I keep him 3 - 4 levels behind. If he ever catches you in his jungle early he has a chance, but if you are smart about your invades and bring wards it is relatively easy to make Trundle a non factor
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On April 10 2012 00:39 BlasiuS wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2012 16:08 gtrsrs wrote: attack speed is non-synergetic with trundle because his AS is tuned with his CDR in the early levels so that you can rhythmically aa-Q-aa, and additional AS can fk that up. try running arpen + AD or just flat AD instead of AS, you will actually be faster this way with trundle Agree here. Also keep in mind that for your first clear, you will have blue buff, which means you can contaminate at every camp, which gives you +20% AS. btw, there's 2 main ArPen breakpoints for junglers: -13, this is all small monsters except the buffs -20, this is all monsters except baron (120 armor) technically dragon has 21 armor, but 20 arpen is damn close to true damage. 13 arpen is 3 quints + 2 marks 20 arpen is 3 quints + 6 marks I usually go for 20 arpen, it's effective against champions even into late-game, and once I reach mid-game I'm only jungling for the buffs anyway. edit: though I am curious to know what the optimal early-game AS is for trundle, both with and without blue buff. I usually put 4 points into Alacrity mastery so I can get Weapon Expertise. If those 4 points in Alacrity are wasted I'd put the 5 points elsewhere. I also use the remainder of my marks on AS. If those are wasted, I'd rather use them for flat AD or AD/level. Recall the arp doesn't work on dragon or baron anymore anyways.
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On April 10 2012 03:41 Bladeorade wrote: I have no idea how you find Trundle fast... he is so freaking slow. I play Shyvana or Mundo when I jungle and whenever I face a Trundle I keep him 3 - 4 levels behind. If he ever catches you in his jungle early he has a chance, but if you are smart about your invades and bring wards it is relatively easy to make Trundle a non factor
He's definitely faster than WW, alistar, Fizz, Nautilus, GP, Rammus. He's fast enough that his speed isnt an issue, you run out of camps.
If you think Trundle is bad I just dont know what to say, he is uncatchable, great duelist, has huge utility with pillar, and is the only character in the game who can make a fed huge bruiser into useless shit while simultaneously becoming a god. Hes a fucking monster with a few items. Also hes one of the best dragon solos.
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On April 10 2012 03:58 obesechicken13 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 00:39 BlasiuS wrote:On April 09 2012 16:08 gtrsrs wrote: attack speed is non-synergetic with trundle because his AS is tuned with his CDR in the early levels so that you can rhythmically aa-Q-aa, and additional AS can fk that up. try running arpen + AD or just flat AD instead of AS, you will actually be faster this way with trundle Agree here. Also keep in mind that for your first clear, you will have blue buff, which means you can contaminate at every camp, which gives you +20% AS. btw, there's 2 main ArPen breakpoints for junglers: -13, this is all small monsters except the buffs -20, this is all monsters except baron (120 armor) technically dragon has 21 armor, but 20 arpen is damn close to true damage. 13 arpen is 3 quints + 2 marks 20 arpen is 3 quints + 6 marks I usually go for 20 arpen, it's effective against champions even into late-game, and once I reach mid-game I'm only jungling for the buffs anyway. edit: though I am curious to know what the optimal early-game AS is for trundle, both with and without blue buff. I usually put 4 points into Alacrity mastery so I can get Weapon Expertise. If those 4 points in Alacrity are wasted I'd put the 5 points elsewhere. I also use the remainder of my marks on AS. If those are wasted, I'd rather use them for flat AD or AD/level. Recall the arp doesn't work on dragon or baron anymore anyways. Are you sure? I thought only armor/MR reduction (Wukong's Q, Trundle's ult, Karthus's wall) didn't work anymore. The wiki seems to confirm that.
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On April 10 2012 04:06 NpG)Explosive wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 03:58 obesechicken13 wrote:On April 10 2012 00:39 BlasiuS wrote:On April 09 2012 16:08 gtrsrs wrote: attack speed is non-synergetic with trundle because his AS is tuned with his CDR in the early levels so that you can rhythmically aa-Q-aa, and additional AS can fk that up. try running arpen + AD or just flat AD instead of AS, you will actually be faster this way with trundle Agree here. Also keep in mind that for your first clear, you will have blue buff, which means you can contaminate at every camp, which gives you +20% AS. btw, there's 2 main ArPen breakpoints for junglers: -13, this is all small monsters except the buffs -20, this is all monsters except baron (120 armor) technically dragon has 21 armor, but 20 arpen is damn close to true damage. 13 arpen is 3 quints + 2 marks 20 arpen is 3 quints + 6 marks I usually go for 20 arpen, it's effective against champions even into late-game, and once I reach mid-game I'm only jungling for the buffs anyway. edit: though I am curious to know what the optimal early-game AS is for trundle, both with and without blue buff. I usually put 4 points into Alacrity mastery so I can get Weapon Expertise. If those 4 points in Alacrity are wasted I'd put the 5 points elsewhere. I also use the remainder of my marks on AS. If those are wasted, I'd rather use them for flat AD or AD/level. Recall the arp doesn't work on dragon or baron anymore anyways. Are you sure? I thought only armor/MR reduction (Wukong's Q, Trundle's ult, Karthus's wall) didn't work anymore. The wiki seems to confirm that. Where's your confirmation?
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On April 10 2012 04:11 obesechicken13 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 04:06 NpG)Explosive wrote:On April 10 2012 03:58 obesechicken13 wrote:On April 10 2012 00:39 BlasiuS wrote:On April 09 2012 16:08 gtrsrs wrote: attack speed is non-synergetic with trundle because his AS is tuned with his CDR in the early levels so that you can rhythmically aa-Q-aa, and additional AS can fk that up. try running arpen + AD or just flat AD instead of AS, you will actually be faster this way with trundle Agree here. Also keep in mind that for your first clear, you will have blue buff, which means you can contaminate at every camp, which gives you +20% AS. btw, there's 2 main ArPen breakpoints for junglers: -13, this is all small monsters except the buffs -20, this is all monsters except baron (120 armor) technically dragon has 21 armor, but 20 arpen is damn close to true damage. 13 arpen is 3 quints + 2 marks 20 arpen is 3 quints + 6 marks I usually go for 20 arpen, it's effective against champions even into late-game, and once I reach mid-game I'm only jungling for the buffs anyway. edit: though I am curious to know what the optimal early-game AS is for trundle, both with and without blue buff. I usually put 4 points into Alacrity mastery so I can get Weapon Expertise. If those 4 points in Alacrity are wasted I'd put the 5 points elsewhere. I also use the remainder of my marks on AS. If those are wasted, I'd rather use them for flat AD or AD/level. Recall the arp doesn't work on dragon or baron anymore anyways. Are you sure? I thought only armor/MR reduction (Wukong's Q, Trundle's ult, Karthus's wall) didn't work anymore. The wiki seems to confirm that. Where's your confirmation?
Baron and Drag are immune to shred, not normal penetration.
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Well if two people say it then it must be true. Cool I learned something new.
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On April 10 2012 04:11 obesechicken13 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 04:06 NpG)Explosive wrote:On April 10 2012 03:58 obesechicken13 wrote:On April 10 2012 00:39 BlasiuS wrote:On April 09 2012 16:08 gtrsrs wrote: attack speed is non-synergetic with trundle because his AS is tuned with his CDR in the early levels so that you can rhythmically aa-Q-aa, and additional AS can fk that up. try running arpen + AD or just flat AD instead of AS, you will actually be faster this way with trundle Agree here. Also keep in mind that for your first clear, you will have blue buff, which means you can contaminate at every camp, which gives you +20% AS. btw, there's 2 main ArPen breakpoints for junglers: -13, this is all small monsters except the buffs -20, this is all monsters except baron (120 armor) technically dragon has 21 armor, but 20 arpen is damn close to true damage. 13 arpen is 3 quints + 2 marks 20 arpen is 3 quints + 6 marks I usually go for 20 arpen, it's effective against champions even into late-game, and once I reach mid-game I'm only jungling for the buffs anyway. edit: though I am curious to know what the optimal early-game AS is for trundle, both with and without blue buff. I usually put 4 points into Alacrity mastery so I can get Weapon Expertise. If those 4 points in Alacrity are wasted I'd put the 5 points elsewhere. I also use the remainder of my marks on AS. If those are wasted, I'd rather use them for flat AD or AD/level. Recall the arp doesn't work on dragon or baron anymore anyways. Are you sure? I thought only armor/MR reduction (Wukong's Q, Trundle's ult, Karthus's wall) didn't work anymore. The wiki seems to confirm that. Where's your confirmation? Patch history from the dragon page says "Dragon is now immune to armor and magic resist-shredding effects."
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On April 10 2012 04:06 sob3k wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 03:41 Bladeorade wrote: I have no idea how you find Trundle fast... he is so freaking slow. I play Shyvana or Mundo when I jungle and whenever I face a Trundle I keep him 3 - 4 levels behind. If he ever catches you in his jungle early he has a chance, but if you are smart about your invades and bring wards it is relatively easy to make Trundle a non factor He's definitely faster than WW, alistar, Fizz, Nautilus, GP, Rammus. He's fast enough that his speed isnt an issue, you run out of camps. If you think Trundle is bad I just dont know what to say, he is uncatchable, great duelist, has huge utility with pillar, and is the only character in the game who can make a fed huge bruiser into useless shit while simultaneously becoming a god. Hes a fucking monster with a few items. Also hes one of the best dragon solos. Alistar is a ganker, I don't consider Fizz a real jungler, Nautilus max E is definitely faster, GP's jungle got nerfed barely anyone plays him in jungle anymore and he is not faster than rammus.
Warwick is the only one he "may" be faster than and even then they probably have roughly the same speed and Warwicks ganks once he hits 6 are superior to Trundles.
Alistar has crazy ganks and that is why you jungle him.
I have never seen or jungled Fizz, sounds like a slow, bad choice.
Nautilus, like Alistar, is a more gank oriented jungler but his E->W definitely clears camps faster than trundle.
GP is slow as crap and is shitty in the jungle.
Rammus is pretty fast and his Q from camp to camp makes him tons faster than Trundle not to mention his ganks are a million times better.
Shyvana is a million times faster, as is Udyr and Mundo. Jarvan, Skarner and Nocturne are all faster and have great ganks.
I seriously don't see a place in my jungle repertoire for Trundle anymore. I used to play him a bunch before the jungle remake but he really just isn't up there anymore. Too many AoE clearers or better gankers. For anything you would use Trundle for in solo que, someone else can do it better. He may have his place in arranged fives but I hate it when I get a jungle Trundle on my team.
I was also under the impression Trundle can no longer ult Dragon or Baron. Making him not a great soloer anymore. I could have sworn I tried this and it got patched out. Am I wrong?
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He can ult them, but he won't shred them. No idea if he gains stats tho (he gains the health and they lose it). He can still solo, but it's harder (can't start drake at like half-health and barely lose any) and in particular takes longer, which is more risky.
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Trundle does gain the stats. Its really amusing during baron fights.
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On April 10 2012 05:22 Bladeorade wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 04:06 sob3k wrote:On April 10 2012 03:41 Bladeorade wrote: I have no idea how you find Trundle fast... he is so freaking slow. I play Shyvana or Mundo when I jungle and whenever I face a Trundle I keep him 3 - 4 levels behind. If he ever catches you in his jungle early he has a chance, but if you are smart about your invades and bring wards it is relatively easy to make Trundle a non factor He's definitely faster than WW, alistar, Fizz, Nautilus, GP, Rammus. He's fast enough that his speed isnt an issue, you run out of camps. If you think Trundle is bad I just dont know what to say, he is uncatchable, great duelist, has huge utility with pillar, and is the only character in the game who can make a fed huge bruiser into useless shit while simultaneously becoming a god. Hes a fucking monster with a few items. Also hes one of the best dragon solos. Alistar is a ganker, I don't consider Fizz a real jungler, Nautilus max E is definitely faster, GP's jungle got nerfed barely anyone plays him in jungle anymore and he is not faster than rammus. Warwick is the only one he "may" be faster than and even then they probably have roughly the same speed and Warwicks ganks once he hits 6 are superior to Trundles. Alistar has crazy ganks and that is why you jungle him. I have never seen or jungled Fizz, sounds like a slow, bad choice. Nautilus, like Alistar, is a more gank oriented jungler but his E->W definitely clears camps faster than trundle. GP is slow as crap and is shitty in the jungle. Rammus is pretty fast and his Q from camp to camp makes him tons faster than Trundle not to mention his ganks are a million times better. Shyvana is a million times faster, as is Udyr and Mundo. Jarvan, Skarner and Nocturne are all faster and have great ganks. I seriously don't see a place in my jungle repertoire for Trundle anymore. I used to play him a bunch before the jungle remake but he really just isn't up there anymore. Too many AoE clearers or better gankers. For anything you would use Trundle for in solo que, someone else can do it better. He may have his place in arranged fives but I hate it when I get a jungle Trundle on my team. I was also under the impression Trundle can no longer ult Dragon or Baron. Making him not a great soloer anymore. I could have sworn I tried this and it got patched out. Am I wrong?
His jungle speed is not the reason to pick him. But he is just so strong. I have seen trundles go 1v3 make a kill and get out of it alive. Thats not something that every champion can do. Basically, he's not a bad choice but will work best in specific lineups i assume.
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I have been trying out top lane trundle for a few days now and what mostly interested me was the matchup against yorick which people were saying trundle does well against but no one is really sure or doesn't have that much experience,so I thought I'd share how it worked out. In total I played against 4 yoricks.For the first two games I went with a total of 25 armor from runes(quints,yellows),9 in offense and 21 in defense in which I put 2 points into tough skin,I started with cloth5pot from the shop. So I was coming into the lane with 71 armor.In hindsight this was pretty much a overkill to say the least.It was actually pretty lolzy,the first yorick tried to spam me from lvl 2 and than when he was half way through his mana pool I didn't even get to use one of my health potions and was standing in lane with about 90% of my health.In the second game I even got ganked by shyvana at lvl 3,they blew all the summoners one me and I died,bought tabis,went back to lane and yorick still did no damage to me.I ended up sitting on top of the low hp creeps so he can't last hit properly,he couldn't even do much damage to me when he fully unloaded on me with his ghouls and tried to trade autos with me because of my Q debuff. I ended up about 30 cs ahead in the first game and 25 in the second.The third and forth game I tried out a regrowth+pot opening which I did pretty good as well there,but I did take more damage from his autos because my tabi was later so it did leave me more open for ganks. The thing is you can't do anything majory to him in return 1v1 apart from being extremely annoying.Your only damage comes from autos so he will life leach a lot of the damage back.You will still come out on top from the trades but you won't be able to really push him out of the lane or something drastic like that,especially once he gets his tear.Best thing that I can suggest is try to hold the lane at a spot where your jungler will be able to get a gank off. I haven't paid much attention to the runes they used so I couldn't tell if they were nubs or not,for what its worth I'm around 1.6k elo so judge for yourself if you want to take my anything from this. In general my advice would be if you are annoyed by yorick and you have trundle sitting around from the champs to choose from,play him against yorick.You will be able to free farm as much as you want without a huge threat from dying from the moment you get your W and E(I would actually recommend getting pillar at lvl 3 because I died by not having it to a gank from shyvana as I said and if I had it I would be safe pretty much)and only way you can die is if they use all of their summoners on you(with jungler having exhaust and lane ignite) and they will still kill you barely under your turret.(at least that's what happened to me the 2 times I died in lane to ganks.) I'll be trying to play this matchup every time someone picks yorick so if I find anything new I'll share.If someone has anything better to add would be great,I'm not the highest elo so there always is a possibility of the yoricks that I play against being just dumb >_>
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Feel like those yoricks weren't adapting to the lane well. Trundle comes to lane with 71 armor? I max w and spam it on him every time he goes to cs. I push the lane from w spam, while he's unable to approach menthrough the persistent slow- if he ever does get close I just e some creeps to regen. When the lane is pushed I harass enemy jungler while trundle is forces to last hit under tower. Yeah, I'm probably not gonna force trundle to die but I will 100% outcs him and scale harder. When the enemy gank comes I just throw down a w on trundle since he has no gap closer, q the jungler and scoot away
I'm not sold on trundle countering yorick. His passive is good in this lane yeah but not gamebreaking. Gamebreaking trundle passive was when nocturnes dusk trails were 2500 hp units so every time noc ganked, trundle jumped back to full health
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On April 24 2012 07:40 gtrsrs wrote: Feel like those yoricks weren't adapting to the lane well. Trundle comes to lane with 71 armor? I max w and spam it on him every time he goes to cs. I push the lane from w spam, while he's unable to approach menthrough the persistent slow- if he ever does get close I just e some creeps to regen. When the lane is pushed I harass enemy jungler while trundle is forces to last hit under tower. Yeah, I'm probably not gonna force trundle to die but I will 100% outcs him and scale harder. When the enemy gank comes I just throw down a w on trundle since he has no gap closer, q the jungler and scoot away
I'm not sold on trundle countering yorick. His passive is good in this lane yeah but not gamebreaking. Gamebreaking trundle passive was when nocturnes dusk trails were 2500 hp units so every time noc ganked, trundle jumped back to full health
why would you max w, e does magic dmg you know, unless you're really that confident you don't need the regen at all.
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Don't see how trundle can even approach yorick to damage him is the thing. No ranged harass, no gap closer... Yorick can probably take 0 damage while laning if he wants to. E should be unnecessary
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On April 24 2012 07:56 gtrsrs wrote: Don't see how trundle can even approach yorick to damage him is the thing. No ranged harass, no gap closer... Yorick can probably take 0 damage while laning if he wants to. E should be unnecessary Erm who cares,yorick does no damage to you,I'm serious you can try it out in a custom against someone,yorick is gonna run out of mana before you get a cloth5pot trundle below70%.That's my whole point,you don't push yorick out of lane or anything you can just flat out ignore him,if he tries to push the lane you auto the minions to push it back,sooner or later yorick will run out of mana that way tho and get ganked.Trundle doesn't win against yorick he just free farms. Besides your acting like trundle is fiora lol.You can't just cross the other half of the lane and expect to escape with just W.Trundle's pillar is immense for ganks,if you get caught by a pillar you either have to flash or pray your jungler is near else you gonna die,not to mention that trundles W has CC reduction so as soon as you get W you use it.
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I still play Trundle quite regulary as a jungler as he is really safe and is still decently quick, he isn't as fast as shyvana or mundo but if you get either in a 1v1 fight you should win as long as your not 2 levels behind. His Pillar for ganking is amazing if you can land it just behind the champion you're attacking the block and slow should be enough to cause a flash and plus it gives you vision in brushes which is a nice bonus.
The only thing I would say is he doesnt have huge damage so you have to stay on your target a little longer than other junglers which means you have to keep W up so you can keep up with them.
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On April 24 2012 07:56 gtrsrs wrote: Don't see how trundle can even approach yorick to damage him is the thing. No ranged harass, no gap closer... Yorick can probably take 0 damage while laning if he wants to. E should be unnecessary
Trundle makes the lane go into a farm-fest mode (where yorick will be stronger imo, considering how trundle has to build solely around farming in his lane), however i don't really see anyone else ever being able to do this, other than da troll.
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Warning: The last post in this thread is over two months old. If you bump this, you better have a good reason.
- This to me shows how nobody plays trundle.
I tried trundle again in season 3 and he has new life! The machete and its new passive (10%) extra damage to monsters means trundle clears camps in a really fast time compared with the other junglers (because of bite and the AD Steroid it gives) i use (lee shaco fiddle jarven etc) i also find that as this builds straight into wriggles i can go intro wriggles which means i rarely have to back.
I also think as a league is leaning towards bruisers now and trundle is almost the anti bruiser champ as his ult reduces any tankyness they may have, he also has a slow.. I am currently playing at the low elo of 1500 and i have yet to find a jungler he gets dominated by which means i can actually just go invade steal enemy camps fight enemys etc.. I also find he actually has decent ganks due to his pillar and speed boost skills. I currently go wriggles into cleaver or wriggles phage depending on the other team and depending on whos getting fed etc..
Has anybody else used him recently? and what are your thoughts? I currently have around a 5.3 KDA with him
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I really like him, but have a hard time picking him. He's one of the best duelists by far, and can quickly cause somebody who doesn't know him to take an early death on an invade. The fact that he's basically never played is a huge asset in that regard, as even high elo players can often be taken by surprise with him. My problem with him is that if I'm looking to invade I'll probably play shaco, lee or olaf. They all have much, much better better ganking abilities though. If I want to passively farm I'll look towards olaf. I just dont find myself picking him unless I actually want to play him, he's like a notch below top tier though.
Pro's * Excellent sustain * Great Duelist * Hard to Catch out * Great at fighting lanes that are ahead * Counters basically all bruisers
Con's * Poor Ganks, very reliant on lane CC or extremely out of position enemies * Slow clear times
I think what it comes down to with him is that he's just not very exciting. He doesn't make plays on his own and his kits mediocre in teamfights. He's going to be your front line and probably hold it just fine, but he's not pulling off anything special except mashing a few buttons and hoping for the best. Despite being such a good duelist he's also very prone to well organized invades because he is so slow. If your mid and bot shove you can force him out of his own jungle very easily and completely shut him down early.
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On January 10 2013 00:27 Filter wrote: I really like him, but have a hard time picking him. He's one of the best duelists by far, and can quickly cause somebody who doesn't know him to take an early death on an invade. The fact that he's basically never played is a huge asset in that regard, as even high elo players can often be taken by surprise with him. My problem with him is that if I'm looking to invade I'll probably play shaco, lee or olaf. They all have much, much better better ganking abilities though. If I want to passively farm I'll look towards olaf. I just dont find myself picking him unless I actually want to play him, he's like a notch below top tier though.
Pro's * Excellent sustain * Great Duelist * Hard to Catch out * Great at fighting lanes that are ahead * Counters basically all bruisers
Con's * Poor Ganks, very reliant on lane CC or extremely out of position enemies * Slow clear times
I think what it comes down to with him is that he's just not very exciting. He doesn't make plays on his own and his kits mediocre in teamfights. He's going to be your front line and probably hold it just fine, but he's not pulling off anything special except mashing a few buttons and hoping for the best. Despite being such a good duelist he's also very prone to well organized invades because he is so slow. If your mid and bot shove you can force him out of his own jungle very easily and completely shut him down early.
I thought the same, However within the new patch (and a lot less champs going boots first now) he actually gap closes alot faster, his clear times are also as good if not better than all the top tier junglers now, The steroid he gets with machete is really that strong, pick him again and let me know
I dont play olaf and i think maybe i always run the wrong runes with lee or the wrong masteries but i always feel low on hp after the first clear, I also think lee falls of late game unless he gets super fed however trundle can still be a nasty thing to face as he can cause a lot of disruption in team fights. that said i am not the best lee player by far and need to work on my lee
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On January 10 2013 00:05 La1 wrote:
I currently go wriggles into cleaver or wriggles phage depending on the other team and depending on whos getting fed etc..
Has anybody else used him recently? and what are your thoughts? I currently have around a 5.3 KDA with him
Trundle feels much better now than he did at the end of season 2. I've been going wriggles into zeke's and then situational stuff. Never have to go back with that much lifesteal and since there are ads everywhere it boosts teamfighting/counterganking a ton. With a FH by late game, I have almost 100% pillar uptime and can be wherever I need to be in fights.
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I've been playing a lot of Trundle in the jungle in S3 and finally decided to go through the jungle and figure out exactly which paths can be completely blocked off. Here are the results (in handy guide form!):
The Ultimate Troll's Guide to Pooping in the Jungle + Show Spoiler +Overview of which paths can be blocked: Blue Side+ Show Spoiler +Spot 1: + Show Spoiler +Visual cue:There are two little green dots below the bush, if the pillar is placed near the top dot then it will block the path. One of the more difficult spots to block. Spot 2: + Show Spoiler +Visual cue: Along the patch of green below the bright blue flowers. + Show Spoiler +Visual cue: On the lowest of the three small blue flowers. The best location to block. Can block anywhere on a line between these two endpoints. Very easy, and the long hallway becomes a deathtrap if you catch someone in here. Spot 3: + Show Spoiler +Visual cue: Small crack in the ground to the left of the short blade of grass that's sticking out. This one is pretty difficult to hit, which is too bad, because it is great for catching people going to/from baron. Spot 4: + Show Spoiler +Visual cue: Directly to the left of the bigger leaf on the right. Useful for creating a medium-length dead end. Spot 5: + Show Spoiler +Visual cue: Near to, but not on, the two green patches. Very good for creating a dead end, somewhat difficult to hit correctly. (Found by redditor yamidudes.) Spot 6: + Show Spoiler +Visual cue: Directly between where the two blades of grass cross. This spot is pretty lenient in terms of left-right placement. Really good for catching people who are trying to do wraiths. Spot 7: + Show Spoiler +Visual cue: Anywhere in the gap between the two long blades of grass. Up-down placement is very lenient. Spot 8: + Show Spoiler +Visual cue: Middle of the little green dots. Tough to hit. Useful for chasing someone from red to tower, not great from the other direction since they can just go down. Spot 9: + Show Spoiler +Visual cue: Nothing obvious. Pillar marker should touch the small flower on the left. Up-down placement is lenient. Spot 10: + Show Spoiler +Visual cue: Try to place it on small blades of grass. Really, really difficult. Uses the sign to help block, but too close to that and the bottom wall opens up. Creates a dead end near dragon though, so pretty useful. Purple Side+ Show Spoiler +Spot 11: + Show Spoiler +Visual cue: Edge of the patch of green to the left. Difficult to hit, but catch someone with it and it's the longest dead end there is. (Found by redditor yamidudes.) Spot 12: + Show Spoiler +Visual cue: Big orange flower. Easiest block in the game (outside of next to turrets). + Show Spoiler +Visual cue: None really. Not very necessary though, this is a very narrow path. Can block off anywhere on a line between these two end points. Like blue side, very easy and helpful to block. Spot 13: + Show Spoiler +Visual cue: Just above the end of the green patch. Useful for chasing someone towards midlane. (Found by redditor yamidudes.) Spot 14: + Show Spoiler +Visual cue: Nothing obvious, near the right edge of the green patch and roughly in the middle of the brown path. Counterpart to #5. (Found by redditor yamidudes.) Spot 15: + Show Spoiler +Visual cue: Where the curving blade of grass crosses another. Pretty lenient spot, like wraith path on blue side. Spot 16: + Show Spoiler +Visual cue: On the shadow cast by the fern leaf. Not very lenient. Spot 17: + Show Spoiler +Visual cue: Right where two blades of grass intersect. This spot is really, really hard to block. Still, if you can hit it, can be very useful for counterjungling at red. Spot 18: + Show Spoiler +Visual cue: Nothing obvious. Opening is very narrow so anywhere in the middle is a safe bet. So there you have it - 18 different spots where your pillar is as effective as Anivia wall (or more, since with 40% cdr you can block a path permanently).
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Amazing!! This is the guide that I need to bring my trolling to the next level!
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Really useful, thanks! <3
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It shouldn't on Teemo or Annie. Only Nautilus, Cho'Gath when he starts getting stacks, and I believe Sejuani have different model size than most of the champions.
Just played one, got assigned the jungle, enemy had Kha'Zix/Draven/Nocturne/Blitzcrank/Rumble so I figured with half the team diving us and the other half being more "ranged" the pillar could be good to punish their lack of coordination. Felt the same problems than in late s2 where Trundle loves CDR but the itemization for it is pretty weak early on (can't rush locket first item and do good, he needs some damage to stay relevant in clear time). He's still pretty slow, too, at least a lot slower on the buffs than I'd have expected from his Q numbers. I was stronger than Kha'Zix early on so it helped a lot too (he rushed tear, Ryze did the same, guess who won) so it helped my mobility.
Went for machete+5 -> phage (I had an assist on the fb on bot) -> boots+belt -> golem spirit and then we won the game before I could recall (had 2+ k, would have probably built straight aegis, or tabi+kindle for SV/zeke, or tabi+finishing mallet). I didn't feel like dropping 500 into spirit stone, and phage is simply too important for Trundle to stick on targets. Had some plays with the pillar during the last fight, near purple's top inner, I waited for Rumble to push since Kennen wanted a gank, but Rumble disappeared... to facheck the bush 10s later. Cue chaotic fight, I move toward the golems then tower as Kennen falls (Blitz/Draven/Kha following) during his ultimate, circle around the trees chased by Draven who gets low, Kha'Zix turns back toward the bush, I'm right above the bush so I lose vision of low HP Draven, I turn the corner immediatly to surprise him and kill him in one hit before he reacts, then pillar into the bush to get vision of Kha and finish him using Q's enhanced range to get the kill before he enters the bush and auto range.
I remembered about managing Q's cooldown and stutter-stepping to chase people efficiently while waiting for cooldowns, but I had forgotten that the pillar gives vision. That was pretty neat. Really felt the need for cdr to get a second pillar off during the other skirmishes though.
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I think wriggles is much better on him than any of the spirit items, especially since the smaller creeps in the jungle now have low enough health that they usually die to one aa+bladed armor. I open machete+5>wriggles>kindlegem pretty much every game, then finish zekes or mercs depending on how the game is going. With wriggles you can dragon at any time, if you have one health potion you can solo it at level 6 without using your ult (and stay around 3/4 health the whole time). Top off cdr with a frozen heart (and runes/masteries) and then a Warmogs and you're pretty much done. 6th item is maw/randuins/triforce/whatever you're unkillable you're Trundle with Warmogs.
I don't really like frozen mallet on him. Usually I find that either I'm hunting down someone without high mobility (Ashe/Sivir/Kog) and can keep up just with contaminate+furor or I'm trying to catch an Ez or Vayne and frozen mallet isn't going to do anything for me anyways. Once they back off from you, just pillar them out and go back to the teamfight.
I don't know how you find him that slow, I generally have to wait about 3-4 seconds for wraiths to respawn after clearing red and golems in the first clear and with wriggles camps are trivial.
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I like mallet because Trundle (and now the whole roster with s3 meta) tends to favor health, while phage is a nifty asset to my ganks early on, so it's a bit of a "phage is good early on for its tankiness+damage combo and how much it improves my ganks" and "later on I can get a belt item without using another slot, converting the early utility of phage into my HP slot". I didn't like wriggles because it didn't change his clearspeed much with how AoE-oriented the jungle was, but I'll admit to not having tested it since the last tweaks, I should do at least one.
As for the slowness, maybe I play too much power-farmers (Udyr previously, Mundo, Vi, and Maokai/Nautilus/Amumu pre-last changes) that pretty much instaclear the non-golem camps so obviously he doesn't like the comparison but it gave me high standards.
I'm generally running a much more utility-heavy build when playing Trundle, since I'm not a fan of resists on him. He didn't need them in s2, they give much less than health in s3. I used to go for shurelya's (because it was super good anywa, Q could easily run him through his mana pool, and it gave up to 23% CDR with defensive masteries), Zeke's (to get lifesteal without wriggles, a nice AS aura to go with the AD steroid from Q) or just SV (nice little MR buffer early on + health, and the passive wasn't that bad once Trundle's was maxed). SV still seems pretty good for him, this or bulwark is the only MR item needed (I like golem spirit because then I can go Tabi and still have tenacity, while SV/bulwark is enough for MR) and it gives HP too. Zeke's I like a lot less since AS generally helps the team more than AD.
On the other hand, there aren't many good HP/armour items that grant CDR apart from Locket, and it's a bit light on armour later on (though the EHP with active is actually very good). So even if I don't like FH on him, with how much CDR is to be valued on Trundle I guess it adds a lot to its appeal.
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Suprised Triforce hasn't been mentioned much in regards to season3. It's still really insane on Trundle as he benefits from all aspects of the item. I guess the issue about getting enough gold to afford it is always the issue, but phage is pretty core, so you can always adapt the build if needed.
Wiggles, Zekes, Warmogs seem pretty much the best items for Trundle at the moment, but apart from Triforce, i'm not sure what damage items are good on Trundle, perhaps Black Cleaver?
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On January 28 2013 17:35 Rixxe wrote: Suprised Triforce hasn't been mentioned much in regards to season3. It's still really insane on Trundle as he benefits from all aspects of the item. I guess the issue about getting enough gold to afford it is always the issue, but phage is pretty core, so you can always adapt the build if needed.
Wiggles, Zekes, Warmogs seem pretty much the best items for Trundle at the moment, but apart from Triforce, i'm not sure what damage items are good on Trundle, perhaps Black Cleaver? I know people love to hate it for some reason, but I'd consider running Atma's (and dropping the Wriggle's upgrade, while we're at it). With how bulky your core ist with Zeke's and 'Mogs, Atma's would help out a bunch and you can always get that Avarice blade somewhat early.
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One thing important to remember about Trundle: Stealing resists doesn't matter when nobody builds resists. With so many people stacking health over resists, you're going to need to remember that ulting that tanky-ass Shyvana may not give you as many resists as you've been expecting.
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Reddit link blowing up the page views on this thread. Not sure why but I find that pretty amusing...nice to see more TL links on the LoL reddit though.
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On January 28 2013 23:39 sofawall wrote: One thing important to remember about Trundle: Stealing resists doesn't matter when nobody builds resists. With so many people stacking health over resists, you're going to need to remember that ulting that tanky-ass Shyvana may not give you as many resists as you've been expecting.
But your ulti is ALSO a % max health steal. So you're not getting much resists out of it, but you're getting more healing (because they don't have resist to reduce it, and because they have more health) Redacted because I'm wrong.
Has anyone tried Iceborne on him (possibly after Warmogs/Locket or something?) Seems like it might be nice - sticking power / aoe disruption, glacial is a nice midgame CDR core item alongside Kindlegem (locket?)
I think you only really need to go for Razor and not so much wriggles. With all the AD assassins / AD casters, lowering enemy AD is probably stronger than we're giving it credit for.
I'm currently thinking of a core that looks like Razor Locket Either SV or Glacial (depending on which resist you want more - your HP is at a decent level from Locket.) Prefer Glacial - cause Iceborne looks cool (pun intended) Theoretically we're picking trundle because there are AD casters on the other team we wanted to shut down, right? So all this armor stacking makes sense, right? >_>
That's 25% CDR. Can get CDR boots (you have tenacity from W, so treads aren't completely necessary unless you REALLY need to reduce a specific CC) or you can get the other of Glacial/SV.
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On January 28 2013 23:50 sylverfyre wrote: But your ulti is ALSO a % max health steal. So you're not getting much resists out of it, but you're getting a shitton of healing (because they don't have resist to reduce it, and because they have more health) The health steal is flat+AP. Only the resist steal is %-based.
I'm still of the belief that Locket+Aegis are priority 1 this patch.
On January 28 2013 17:35 Rixxe wrote: Suprised Triforce hasn't been mentioned much in regards to season3. It's still really insane on Trundle as he benefits from all aspects of the item. I guess the issue about getting enough gold to afford it is always the issue, but phage is pretty core, so you can always adapt the build if needed.
Wiggles, Zekes, Warmogs seem pretty much the best items for Trundle at the moment, but apart from Triforce, i'm not sure what damage items are good on Trundle, perhaps Black Cleaver? Triforce is still the same as it ever was--one of several good 6th item damage choices. Cleaver's OK, and I haven't tried BotRK, but it seems like it fills the slot Bloodrazor did before (no Aspd is annoying, though).
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On January 29 2013 01:59 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2013 23:50 sylverfyre wrote: But your ulti is ALSO a % max health steal. So you're not getting much resists out of it, but you're getting a shitton of healing (because they don't have resist to reduce it, and because they have more health) The health steal is flat+AP. Only the resist steal is %-based. I'm still of the belief that Locket+Aegis are priority 1 this patch. Show nested quote +On January 28 2013 17:35 Rixxe wrote: Suprised Triforce hasn't been mentioned much in regards to season3. It's still really insane on Trundle as he benefits from all aspects of the item. I guess the issue about getting enough gold to afford it is always the issue, but phage is pretty core, so you can always adapt the build if needed.
Wiggles, Zekes, Warmogs seem pretty much the best items for Trundle at the moment, but apart from Triforce, i'm not sure what damage items are good on Trundle, perhaps Black Cleaver? Triforce is still the same as it ever was--one of several good 6th item damage choices. Cleaver's OK, and I haven't tried BotRK, but it seems like it fills the slot Bloodrazor did before (no Aspd is annoying, though). Yango, I'm curious as to your opinion on LiftLift's latest rant regarding Trundle. (Personally I feel he is CRAZY wrong because everything that was wrong with Trundle is S2 is still wrong with him).
http://www.lanefeed.com/omnisupports-khazix-still-broken-trundle-the-sleeper-op-twitch-nerfs-needed/
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Crumbzz talking about Trundle and saying that he doesn't really have the damage to be that good. He goes on basically how Trundle is only good if your engagements are going to be long so that you can really abuse the repeated pillar applications.
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On January 29 2013 02:20 sylverfyre wrote: Crumbzz talking about Trundle and saying that he doesn't really have the damage to be that good. He goes on basically how Trundle is only good if your engagements are going to be long so that you can really abuse the repeated pillar applications. He's sort of right, but that's inherent to design of Trundle's kit. He's always been good in longer engagements, and weak in short fights with high burst damage.
But League of Warmogs makes fights long right now.
Doublelift's statements about Trundle are more or less just as useless as any "X is OP" statement--he's just stating the strong points of the champion. They were strong before, and they're not why he became OP.
That said, I can think of a couple reasons why Trundle might be stronger in S3. Some not necessarily BECAUSE of S3, though.
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Well the reason I ask is because I honestly really miss using the guy. I'm not trying to be a bandwagoner and wait until people tell me he's okay to use again, but every time I try to drag him up from the depths for a few games I still run into those mobility creep/gank issues that he has.
You can't gank an Ezreal as Trundle and when Ez is in such a high % of games, and you can't stick to anyone else for long enough to get your autoattacks off constantly...
Teamfight/high ELO-wise I'm sure people can come up with uses for him and his Pillar, being the great skill that it is, but in terms of damage he's got none, and in my opinion can't compete with those who can build tanky and STILL destroy people (aka Darius/Olaf).
Like sure he's unkillable lategame, but after the rest of you team is dead, what good are you?
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Can't remember who talked about Trundle as an anti-diver: it's problematic because most of the diving AD casters/champs rely on burst to destroy you, or poke into finisher, rather than dps, which means unless you're sticking right beside your carries (intead of in the front to soak up damage) you won't be able to reach them and Q them fast enough before they output most of their damage once they decide to dive. It's not like Tryndamere's ranged Mocking Shout.
On January 28 2013 17:35 Rixxe wrote: Suprised Triforce hasn't been mentioned much in regards to season3. It's still really insane on Trundle as he benefits from all aspects of the item. I guess the issue about getting enough gold to afford it is always the issue, but phage is pretty core, so you can always adapt the build if needed.
Wiggles, Zekes, Warmogs seem pretty much the best items for Trundle at the moment, but apart from Triforce, i'm not sure what damage items are good on Trundle, perhaps Black Cleaver? In s2 I saw two build paths for Trundle (a bit extreme, but you can mix stuff): Defensive: mallet/aegis/randuin's/SV (your team has enough damage, you're a lil' fucker that's sticking to their carries and forcing them to deal with you while being unkillable) Offensive: triforce/ghostblade/GA (just ult their tankiest guy and dive the carry to zone him out of the fight. If you can't kill him, they probably failed to kill you too and your own carry had a field day, but you need someone on your team to play more defensive (and to be kinda fed) for this to work out, esp. timing-wise).
I'm pretty sure Ghostblade still isn't that bad on Trundle, though Black Cleaver probably makes more sense (armour reduction and AD serves him better than crit and more AS, also HP).
On January 29 2013 02:28 TheYango wrote: He's sort of right, but that's inherent to design of Trundle's kit. He's always been good in longer engagements, and weak in short fights with high burst damage.
But League of Warmogs makes fights long right now. League of Warmogs also means that the carries are harder (or at least take longer) to kill, so you're already somewhat low damage is even lower comparatively, which reduces the threat you pose. That's really what bothers me most: you reach a peak at levels 9/11 where your Q is maxed and they still haven't stacked too much AD so the debuff steals a higher %, and your ult is level 2 so you get a be a little tankier. But then your damage tends to drop and while you're very hard to kill, unless you managed to stack CDR you don't have the damage/utility that can justify running from say a Shen. It has probably more to do with me, though, and managing to find an item build/core that allows for a smooth game flow: enough damage early on to pose a threat, while mixing up some CDR so that once you start to fall off you don't have to build it "from scratch" and feel a lot less useful in the meantime.
That said, I can think of a couple reasons why Trundle might be stronger in S3. Some not necessarily BECAUSE of S3, though. Would you care to develop? I can see how the better CDR itemization, and general tankiness helps him (also Pillar super good against Olaf if you pick your fights well), but when you talk about "non-s3" I'm thinking about meta stuff like lane swaps and low econ games... his Q is obviously better in low econ environment, same with his W, and his pillar can help make dives easier, or shut down ganks/flanks, but apart from that he lacks clear speed to have the top map pressure/mobility that seems to be asked of junglers now, and he isn't a good 1v2 aner or anything himself.
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On January 29 2013 05:28 Alaric wrote: Can't remember who talked about Trundle as an anti-diver: it's problematic because most of the diving AD casters/champs rely on burst to destroy you, or poke into finisher, rather than dps, which means unless you're sticking right beside your carries (intead of in the front to soak up damage) you won't be able to reach them and Q them fast enough before they output most of their damage once they decide to dive. It's not like Tryndamere's ranged Mocking Shout. Unless the rest of your team flat-out fails, it's simply not possible for an anti-carry to solo-kill your carry through your team. The danger that Trundle poses to diving heroes is that Pillar limits the movement of the less mobile heroes on the team. Put simply, it force the enemy team to move with the least mobile member of their team because the ability for Pillar+Ulti to quickly isolate someone too far ahead/behind their team is very powerful.
He doesn't directly threaten divers, but the power of pillar is that it acts as a sort of invisible leash tying the diving hero back to their own team.
On January 29 2013 05:28 Alaric wrote: In s2 I saw two build paths for Trundle (a bit extreme, but you can mix stuff): Defensive: mallet/aegis/randuin's/SV (your team has enough damage, you're a lil' fucker that's sticking to their carries and forcing them to deal with you while being unkillable) Offensive: triforce/ghostblade/GA (just ult their tankiest guy and dive the carry to zone him out of the fight. If you can't kill him, they probably failed to kill you too and your own carry had a field day, but you need someone on your team to play more defensive (and to be kinda fed) for this to work out, esp. timing-wise). Neither of those were ultimately more successful than the Jatt/Lilballz route of defensive/supportive items (Shurelya/Aegis/Frozen/Randuin as core items).
On January 29 2013 05:28 Alaric wrote: I'm pretty sure Ghostblade still isn't that bad on Trundle, though Black Cleaver probably makes more sense (armour reduction and AD serves him better than crit and more AS, also HP). Ghostblade's problem is that it's not slot-efficient enough for a hero that wants a 6th one-off damage item. You're looking for a 3k+ gold finishing item.
On January 29 2013 05:28 Alaric wrote: League of Warmogs also means that the carries are harder (or at least take longer) to kill, so you're already somewhat low damage is even lower comparatively, which reduces the threat you pose. That's really what bothers me most: you reach a peak at levels 9/11 where your Q is maxed and they still haven't stacked too much AD so the debuff steals a higher %, and your ult is level 2 so you get a be a little tankier. But then your damage tends to drop and while you're very hard to kill, unless you managed to stack CDR you don't have the damage/utility that can justify running from say a Shen. It has probably more to do with me, though, and managing to find an item build/core that allows for a smooth game flow: enough damage early on to pose a threat, while mixing up some CDR so that once you start to fall off you don't have to build it "from scratch" and feel a lot less useful in the meantime. You're not a direct offensive threat. Trundle can play that way if he's fed, but in general, that's generally not going to be that successful, due to your poor burst threat and lack of reliable disables.
Trundle is ultimately a supportive teamfighting hero. It's hard to really describe his exact role, but in a word, I'd say it's "annoying". Your kit doesn't suit you being a direct damage threat, and you don't have hard disables, but you have a bunch of annoying little shit that just makes teamfighting frustrating for the enemy. You force the enemy team to move around a lot, to switch targets, to be mindful of how they engage. These things are meaningless in a game where people insta-kill one another (part of why double AP high-burst damage team comps have always been Trundle's bane), but in a game where teamfights can be quite drawn out and involve a lot of movement, they are quite powerful.
You want to skirt the line between "the enemy wants to kill you" and "the enemy can't kill you". This is why team defensive/utility items are Trundle's bread and butter--they add to both of these factors. They add to your personal defensive capability, but the fact that you're contributing defensive power to your teammates increases your value as a kill target (moreso than damage would given Trundle's mediocre ability to apply an increase in offensive stats to practical use).
I actually think it's quite funny that they made him a troll because quite honestly being a troll suits Trundle's mode of teamfighting perfectly.
An interesting product of the current itemization is that there are a lot of diving junglers/top laners that rely a fair bit on their autoattacks when dealing damage, but are not actually building offensive items for it, and instead just building Warmog's/Sunfire. This is ultimately good for Trundle's teamfight usefulness as lower immediate damage output/more drawn out fights are Trundle's forte.
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Ah, I wasn't clear enough in the first part (anti-diver stuff), it was to answer to somebody arguing that his Q is good against them (which I believe isn't true because of his ideal positioning, and melee range). I agree with the general anti-diver sentiment though (in the game I mentioned last page I picked him against Kha+Noc, Draven+Rumble+Blitz because if Kha+Noc dive, a well-placed pillar can isolate them from the rest of their team).
There are a lot of champions/composition that can reduce the short-term effectiveness of the pillar though, for example Ahri, Renekton, CDR-built Xin, Kha'Zix with evolved E, and they're all quite popular. Of course it doesn't take his niche away from him, but as long as things like Cait's range, MF being picked for her long reach ultimate, etc. are popular in the meta on top of diving/mobile frontline I don't see Trundle being generally as good as he could be. It's still better with the squishies becoming usually harder to kill though, than maybe stopping 2 members of the enemy team from entering but still having to deal with a 4v3 because you just lost your AD or squishy AP to their bursty initiation.
About the item builds I was talking s2 in general, Jatt's build wasn't there at the start and while being much better than those counterparts, it's also more team/coordination reliant because it tends to lead to less effective ganks in the early midgame, creating a timing where a more aggressive jungler like Lee Sin could put a lot of pressure on your lanes while your team-wide utility hasn't been abused yet and you can't fight him or out-pressure him. In soloQ you can't expect your lanes to be able to deal with this, or simply not start raging at the jungler for ganking less than the guy pouring himself in it. (Picture Vi now, where starting Locket is obviously better for the team while not being bad on her, but you'll output far less pressure and be less dangerous in ganks than a Vi starting brutalizer.)
As for the teamfighting, I wouldn't know, not having played him enough s3. I know that in s2 with carries having less health I could not build too much damage and still get 2-3 Qs off them and have them forced to deal with me, my guess was that it's more ignorable now, but that doesn't necessarily mean that he's worse, perhaps just that his role shifts more to supporting (late game Pantheon/Lee) than threatening (Shen), as you said. I'll need to play him more. Good thing, I've been playing too much Vi and I don't want to pay for it once she's nerfed, back to the troll!
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After playing him more I do think he probs needs a buff to be considered a threat, even if i snowball the game is not won, i went 6-1-10 last night and had warmogs, hex drinker , merc treads and wriggles and the damage just was not there.. That said they could not ever kill me in team fights, your ult means you basically dont need to buy resistance and you can just buy HP which is super effective however he also lacks a burst.. he is good at creating good situations, catching a player here... blocking a player there.. but otherwise i think he is still not top tier
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The hero is such that he's never going to be a "top tier" pick unless he's drastically remade or overbuffed. In solo queue, his advantages are not the sort of direct advantages that make him easy to carry a game with--rather too many of his advantages are team-oriented advantages that a team has to play with in their minds.
In arranged play, the hero still has the glaring weakness that he's not suited to one-off immediate burst engages, since his strength shines in long drawn out engagements. It's very easy for him to be useless if your team doesn't pick around the fact that you don't have initiation/hard disables/aoe from your jungler, or if your opponents recognize what they need to pick against Trundle.
Compared to say, Xin Zhao, who has similar speed/sustain/itemization demands, Trundle's advantages are much less direct, and more obscure. Xin is more practical because he provides the basics of what people need in a jungler, and just has straight-up teamfighting power.
On January 30 2013 02:49 La1 wrote: After playing him more I do think he probs needs a buff to be considered a threat, even if i snowball the game is not won, i went 6-1-10 last night and had warmogs, hex drinker , merc treads and wriggles and the damage just was not there.. That said they could not ever kill me in team fights, your ult means you basically dont need to buy resistance and you can just buy HP which is super effective however he also lacks a burst.. he is good at creating good situations, catching a player here... blocking a player there.. but otherwise i think he is still not top tier That's the problem. Like it or not, you simply cannot itemize selfishly as Trundle. The hero's individual damage/killing potential is simply not good enough for you to play like that.
Trundle thrives on team usefulness. Everything you buy has to be useful to your team in some way, not just you. Locket, Aegis, Shurelya, Randuin, Zeke's--these are your bread-and-butter items.
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i think machete -> warmogs -> ravenous hydra is all that trundle needs gives him more of an aoe threat, makes him a deadly split pusher (3 auto resets!), and covers all his sustain and offensive wants
for the other items you can literally build whatever you want
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United States47024 Posts
On January 30 2013 03:34 gtrsrs wrote: i think machete -> warmogs -> ravenous hydra is all that trundle needs gives him more of an aoe threat, makes him a deadly split pusher (3 auto resets!), and covers all his sustain and offensive wants
for the other items you can literally build whatever you want Hydra isn't an auto reset. It just plays its own effect that doesn't interact with the autoattack timer.
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hydra is definitely an auto reset
actually, i hate saying things like that without testing them. so i'm gonna go play a game now and test. but it was working like an auto reset yesterday
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United States47024 Posts
On January 30 2013 03:45 gtrsrs wrote: hydra is definitely an auto reset
actually, i hate saying things like that without testing them. so i'm gonna go play a game now and test. but it was working like an auto reset yesterday It being an autoattack reset doesn't even make sense because it's not an autoattack-based effect.
Autoattack->Hydra->Autoattack
When the Hydra effect is done, the autoattack CD is ready again.
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
It looks like an autoattack reset, I swear to god it's animation is the champion attacking the ground, but yeah, it's not an autoattack. It doesnt target anything, it doesn't apply on-hit effects and it does not damage towers, it's not autoattack. It's as good as one though :3
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On January 30 2013 03:09 TheYango wrote: The hero is such that he's never going to be a "top tier" pick unless he's drastically remade or overbuffed. In solo queue, his advantages are not the sort of direct advantages that make him easy to carry a game with--rather too many of his advantages are team-oriented advantages that a team has to play with in their minds. It's so discouraging when it's obvious that your team doesn't know, and when you explain to them doesn't want to, play accordingly to you. He's so much team reliant it's like building a card castle hoping your teammates won't step on it without even realizing it.
Need to get some people to play arranged teams with, so we can have some real communication going on. :<
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On January 30 2013 03:45 gtrsrs wrote: hydra is definitely an auto reset
actually, i hate saying things like that without testing them. so i'm gonna go play a game now and test. but it was working like an auto reset yesterday
verified and disproven at the same time it's an auto attack reset, but not when attacking towers. but it's 100% an AA reset on champs and creeps. on towers you just get the animation
the same goes for tiamat
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United States47024 Posts
On January 30 2013 05:00 gtrsrs wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2013 03:45 gtrsrs wrote: hydra is definitely an auto reset
actually, i hate saying things like that without testing them. so i'm gonna go play a game now and test. but it was working like an auto reset yesterday verified and disproven at the same time it's an auto attack reset, but not when attacking towers. but it's 100% an AA reset on champs and creeps. on towers you just get the animation the same goes for tiamat The Hydra active isn't an autoattack. There will be an autoattack immediately after because Hydra active is performed WHILE the autoattack cooldown happens.
For Hydra to be an autoattack reset in the way you describe, the behavior would have to be:
Autoattack->Crescent+Autoattack (autoattack happens during Crescent)->Autoattack
Autoattack->Crescent->Autoattack is normal behaviour because Crescent is just using the post-attack time of the autoattack.
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but i do damage during the crescent timing so it's either an AA reset or does spell/item damage that isn't listed
easiest way for me to test it was to attack creeps took 4 hits to kill the creep i was focusing; OR 3 hits + the crescent active, which was also faster if that's not an auto reset then i don't know what is
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United States47024 Posts
On January 30 2013 05:09 gtrsrs wrote: but i do damage during the crescent timing so it's either an AA reset or does spell/item damage that isn't listed The 3rd possibility is that Crescent has an animation, but isn't actually supposed to interrupt your attacks (similar to Hecarim Q), so you get a strange case where you're autoattacking while the Crescent animation plays.
Someone told me this is how it actually works, but I never got to verify carefully.
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go check it then -_- another way you can test is to get a creep down to an HP level where another auto would kill it, then immediately press your crescent active. the creep will die instantly and you'll get the gold, without waiting for your full auto timer
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United States47024 Posts
On January 30 2013 05:14 gtrsrs wrote: go check it then -_- another way you can test is to get a creep down to an HP level where another auto would kill it, then immediately press your crescent active. the creep will die instantly and you'll get the gold, without waiting for your full auto timer That's the crescent active killing it though. Crescent isn't autoattack based, so obviously it doesn't wait for your auto timer.
Crescent is just an aoe nuke with an AD ratio.
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an AD ratio of 1 aka an auto attack
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United States47024 Posts
On January 30 2013 05:20 gtrsrs wrote: an AD ratio of 1 aka an auto attack Not all spells with AD ratios of 1 are autoattacks. It also doesn't proc on-hit effects/etc.
It's just a normal AoE nuke. It's not an autoattack, and doesn't use the autoattack timer, just like I said.
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I have updated my guide to blocking paths with pillar, just in time for the troll's free week. It's too bad his q is still bugged, hopefully it will be fixed soon. It's pretty apparent right now that your damage is incredibly low in any sort of fight.
Hydra is way too expensive for Trundle to get out of the jungle, and skipping madred's/wriggles completely neuters your ability to solo drag at any point from level 6 onwards, which I think is one of Trundle's biggest strengths. I guess it would be reasonable if your gameplan was for Trundle to split push endlessly, but there are other champs who fit that role better.
How quickly do people get the furor enchantment on him? I'm always stuck debating getting that or components for a big defensive item like warmogs/glacial.
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His Q is bugged? In what way?
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On February 20 2013 05:33 Sufficiency wrote: His Q is bugged? In what way?
Apparenty it doesn't apply the bonus damage to champs, just an autoreset and nothing more. So that's why my trundle top felt like it wasn't doing anything in fights despite having a ton of items and being pretty far ahead.
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It currently functions only as an autoattack reset on champions, without applying any bonus damage from the spell itself.
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Oh. THIS IS WHY IT TOOK ME 20 SECONDS TO KILL A SUPPORT LUX
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United States47024 Posts
Does the AD steal still function on champions?
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Yes, the rabid bite debuff is still applied. You also still receive bonus AD after using rabid bite.
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Pshh.... it only took like a month to find the bug. Trundle is still played guys.
I'm actually not sure how long it took to find the bug. I'd think it would have been found 1/2 days after the last patch but they didn't make changes to troll.
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So anyone play Trundle much these days? I've played him top and jungle with pretty good success. I was a little baffled at why he feels so much stronger at first. The only real changes were (aside from badass animations):
1. 0.1 second slow on his bite 2. animation on his bite improves with attack speed 3. % health drain instead of flat on his ult, making it better against tanks. 4. Tenacity removed on his w, but he gets 20% more attack speed when its maxed. Also slightly better healing while in it.
I feel like points #3 and 4 might be part of it. If you use a BotRK active/ult a tank, you start healing for fairly monstrous amounts of health. If you have a spirit visage, it only makes it more ridiculous. Then you combine that with his pillar (which was always strong), and he just feels a lot more beefy. The extra attack speed on him w makes him better at straight up brawling later too (at the cost of tenacity).
The q slow seems to make a surprisingly large difference early too. Especially when you have red buff, it's so much easier to chase someone now.
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I mained him in the jungle before the change, have only gotten to play him a couple times (<5) post-change. The slow on bite feels really, really good. I feel like the loss of tenacity on contaminate is pretty noticeable, just because there have been chases where I've died to people catching up while I'm cc'd (that I would have escaped in the past), but I guess that's just a matter of recalibrating my idea of how much I can get away with.
I have not built a BotRK on him yet just because I'm still playing him broke jungler/max cdr style. I could definitely see it being obnoxious on top lane Trundle, the new ult does serious work if you drop it on a J4 type as he dives in and the BotRK would let you actually kill important people instead of just running them out of the fight.
I also found that he can really safely clear the jungle with 4-5-21 masteries, which lets you start with 10% cdr and more easily itemize up to 40%. However, losing all the defensive tree masteries and no tenacity on w makes you feel really fragile. Might just be a thing to do in 5s where you have a designated role as anti-initiating pillar-bot.
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I like picking jungle Trundle as a counter to a lot of the popular "I'm broke" tanky/CDR junglers. It's a simple formula:
- Build BotRK.
- Ult their tank in a fight.
- Congratulations. They spent all their hard earned money on tank stats, and you just walked away with half.
I eventually grab Spirit Visage and Randuin's, but the BotRK rush is extremely effective whenever you're against Nasus/Zac/Sejuani/Rammus/Hecarim/Jarvan etc., especially if they're their team's primary initiation.
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Trundle, The Troll King
Reasons you should play reworked Trundle: Riot fixed a lot of the counterintuitive parts of old Trundle's kit. He's fairly resilient in top lane against a wide variety of champions (think Renekton level resilient- although its more difficult to translate success in lane into wins as Trundle). He can absolutely crush champions that build tanky in teamfights. His ganks are terrifying if executed well. Plus he's got some pretty awesome dialogue and animations now (I'm going to crush your dreams! They're in your skull, right?).
Patch Notes: + Show Spoiler + V3.8
Changes to Slow Zones All slow zones now update on a quarter-second interval, meaning when you move out of a slow field, the slow will wear off almost immediately unless you're hit by an ability that applies an individual slow (like Kog'Maw's Void Ooze). What this means: your champion's movement speed will be restored more quickly when leaving a slow field, but the slow within the fields have not been changed. The following abilities have had their slow refresh rate reduced to 0.25 seconds: Trundle's Pillar of Ice
V3.6: Rework
Decompose Renamed King's Tribute
Rabid Bite Renamed Chomp Damage adjusted to 20 / 40 / 60 / 80 / 100 (+100 / 105 / 110 / 115 / 120% attack damage) from 30 / 45 / 60 / 75 / 90 (+80 / 90 / 100 / 110 / 120% attack damage). Now slows target by 75% for 0.1 seconds on hit. Animation speed scales with Trundle's attack speed.
Contaminate Renamed Frozen Domain Attack speed bonus increased to 20 / 35 / 50 / 65 / 80% from 20 / 30 / 40 / 50 / 60%. Now grants 8 / 11 / 14 / 17 / 20% increased healing to Trundle. No longer grants tenacity.
Pillar of Filth Renamed Pillar of Ice Now interrupts channels. Duration reduced to 6 seconds from 6.5.
Agony Renamed Subjugate Initial damage and drain over time changed to 10 / 11 / 12 (+1 per 100 AP)% max health damage from 100 / 175 / 250 (+60% AP). Initial armor and magic resist steal and drain over time adjusted to 20% from 15 / 20 / 25%.
Abilities:+ Show Spoiler +King’s Tribute: Innate- (range 1000) Whenever an enemy unit near Trundle dies, he absorbs its life force and heals for 2 / 3 / 4 / 5 / 6% of its maximum health (increases by 1% at level 5, 9, 12, 15). Notes: In my opinion, this ability is what makes Trundle a troll. It makes him extremely difficult to push out of lane, because even if you can’t last hit, you can usually regain health from dying creeps. It also serves as good sustain in the jungle. Synergizes with Frozen Domain and Subjugate quite well. Other things to keep in mind: if dragon, baron, or a champion dies, you regain health from that too. This can create situations where you get obscene amounts of health back, especially if you have a spirit visage. Beware of ignite though. Chomp: Active- Trundle bites his target with this next basic attack, dealing physical damage equal to a base amount plus a percentage of his attack damage and slowing his target by 75% for 0.1 seconds. This attack increases Trundle's attack damage for 8 seconds, with his opponent losing half of this amount for the same duration. Physical Damage: 20 / 40 / 60 / 80 / 100 (+ 100 / 105 / 110 / 115 / 120% AD) Attack Damage Bonus: 20 / 25 / 30 / 35 / 40 Cooldown: 4 seconds Cost: 30 mana Notes: Trundle’s main damage ability. It can be used as an auto attack reset. One of the nicer things about the Trundle rework is that the bite speed now scales with attack speed. Your damage also gets buffed quite a bit while debuffing your opponent half that amount. This makes very strong in dueling situations against AD champions. Additionally, it gained an extremely strong (but short) slow with the rework. This makes securing kills a bit easier. Frozen Domain: Active- Trundle coats a target 1000-radius area with ice for 8 seconds, gaining increased movement speed, attack speed, and healing and regeneration from all sources while he is on it. Movement Speed: 20 / 25 / 30 / 35 / 40% Attack Speed: 20 / 35 / 50 / 65 / 80% Healing and Regeneration Increase: 8 / 11 / 14 / 17 / 20% Cooldown: 15 seconds Cost: 60 mana Range: 900 Notes: This ability got changed a lot with the rework. The movement speed increase is identical. The attack speed bonus was increased by 20% at level 5 (5% per level), and the crowd control reduction was removed in favor of increased healing. The crowd control reduction loss hurts to a degree, but the extra attack speed and healing help a lot too. Use this whenever you expect to brawl with someone for a prolong period of time, or you want to catch someone. If you’re low on health in lane, one trick is to use your health pots and frozen domain, while killing as many creeps as possible. If you’re low on health in the jungle, try to make sure this up when you kill the big creep at the camp (most important on the first clear) and you’re chugging a potion. Pillar of Ice: Active- Trundle summons an impassable pillar of ice at a target location for 6 seconds. Enemies caught in the center of the eruption are briefly knocked back. The pillar blocks movement within 62.5 range, slows enemies within 187.5 range, and provides vision within 600 range. Range: 1000 Pillar Slow: 25/30/35/40/45% Cooldown: 23/20/17/14/11 Cost: 60 mana Notes: You trap enemies with this and slow them a great deal, then whack them over the head with your club repeatedly. This ability makes it extremely difficult to get away from Trundle (especially a Trundle with cooldown reduction). The most powerful part of his kit by far. It also is one of the better disengages in the game (only Janna’s comes to mind as being better). If the enemy doesn’t have a blink, a flash, or some way to cc you, they’re probably not getting away unless their team bails them out. Also they made one massive change to this ability: it interrupts channeling. What this means on a practical level: Katarina ulting? Pillar directly on her, her ult is over. Enemy recalling? Cast pillar directly on them, they’re no longer recalling. You know an enemy Fiddlesticks is channeling his ult and you’re nearby? Time to interrupt that too (pillar’s range is longer by 200)! Note: you actually have to cast it directly on an enemy so they’re physically displaced, so if you’re guessing where they are, this can be somewhat dicey. Subjugate: Active:- Trundle drains the life force out of an enemy champion, dealing magic damage equal to a percentage of their maximum health and healing himself for the same amount, as well as stealing 40% of their armor and magic resist. Half of the health, armor, and magic resist is drained immediately and the other half over the next 4 seconds. Intial % Health Stolen: 10/12/14% (+0.01% per AP) Total Magic Damage: 20/24/28% (+0.02% per AP) Cooldown: 80/70/60 seconds Cost: 75 mana Range: 700 Notes: Steals a % of their health, armor, and magic resist. You gain the armor and magic resist stolen. The cooldown on this is pretty low, so if you’re low in lane, feel free to use it even if there isn’t any kill potential and you just need some extra sustain (but be careful to avoid subsequent all ins)- at least early on. This ability crushes tanky initiators if used properly. Some tanky initiator runs in? Use your ult, then pillar of ice so he either can’t get out or his team can’t get in (or both!), and now you have a 5v4 and you’re super tanky for 8 seconds. With 40% CDR, this comes back in 36 seconds. It’s kind of ridiculous.
Summoner Skills: ignite, ghost (top) or exhaust, ghost (jungle)
Pillar is such a good disengage, you should never really need flash. Trundle’s not particularly bursty either, so there’s not much point in running flash. You could use exhaust or heal on Trundle top, but I don’t recommend it.
Masteries: 9/21/0 for both jungle and top Jungle masteries:
Only difference if its top Trundle is you put 3 points into unyielding/block instead of tough skin/summoner’s resolve. Maybe safeguard if you want to turret dive a ton instead of block.
Runes: Marks: Attack speed Seals: Armor Gylphs: Magic resist/level (or flat) Quints: Movement speed
Since his bite scales with attack speed and gives a substantial boost to his AD, there’s really no reason to not run attack speed now. Standard durability seals/glyphs, movement speed so you can get in range to pillar and then follow it up.
Skill order: QEQWQR, R>Q>E>W
If you want to be a more supporty/gank oriented jungle Trundle you can max E over Q. I wouldn’t do that though, his Q has a slow now (although it is short), so it is quite good for pursuing chases over short distances provided you catch up with your target after your initial pillar. That being said, don’t feel terrible about putting in a few extra points in E before maxing Q completely- 3 seconds off the cooldown for every level is huge.
Item build: Top Trundle: BotRK/merc treads/frozen heart/spirit visage/randuin’s omen/bulwark Jungle Trundle: madred’s/BotRK/merc treads/locket/randuin’s/spirit visage (note: you can go doran's blade start as Trundle, but currently I don't recommend it- his clear speed is pretty auto reliant so madred's is pretty important)
You want to aim for 40% cdr while being tanky, with a BotRK so your damage is relevant. The one thing I dislike about Trundle jungle is that it is difficult to get a BotRK, be tanky, and have the CDR with the amount of farm you typically get from the jungle. Other items that are good in certain situations: frozen mallet (against poke comps, easier to lock them up- if you hit 40% cdr and have a mallet, you can absolutely crush a poke comp), hydra (I wouldn’t default to it or even get it that often, but there are certain situations where you need to be able to push harder) Icebourne gauntlet can also be quite nice in the right circumstances.
Playstyle:
Top lane: There are few matchups Trundle straight up loses due to his high sustain. Typically you have to sit and absorb abuse early, while occasionally auto->q->autoing the enemy laner. Short trades usually favor you (exceptions: Vlad/Renekton), as Trundle’s sustain is quite high. At some point (usually level 6-8 or so), the damage buff and debuff from your q becomes quite substantial, which gives you kill potential coupled with subjugate and cutlass/BotRK active. Once you know you can win a fight and commit, it's really hard to escape from Trundle. This usually takes people by surprise, because you have to play fairly passive early barring a huge mistake by your opponent and they’re not good at judging Trundle’s actual strength. Then suddenly they’re stuck on a pillar and can’t get away.
I think it is worth noting Trundle does extremely well in 1v1 matchups against ranged AD’s, with the possible exception of Vayne (she will require some help from your jungler- Quinn is sort of annoying too, but much more doable). He can just shrug off most damage until level 6, and once he corners an AD, they can’t do anything at all. People seem to think a ranged AD counters Trundle top, and in my experience, that’s not the case at all. I suspect he can also do relatively well in 1v2’s (he last hits under tower extremely well due to the low cd on his q, and the extra damage it gives and his sustain helps him when it is most difficult), but haven’t had many chances to experiment.
The most difficult part of Trundle top is transitioning from the laning phase into a tanky beast in teamfights. It’s fairly easy to reach a point where you can win almost any 1v1, but Trundle’s pushing power is slow because he has no AOE damage. As other top laners, I’d just push the wave and apply pressure that way, but teams can group up relatively early and it can be difficult to punish this by taking towers. This can create a situation where you are almost obligated to teamfight, but aren’t really tanky yet. I feel like this is Trundle’s weakest point. If you can get past this and get one big CDR item (Frozen Heart or Spirit Visage), you’re usually in the clear. Try to catch an isolated opponent to prevent this from happening. Pillars in particular are good at forcing unfair fights in the jungle.
Jungle: Pillars make Trundle king, if they don’t have a blink, they’ll probably have to flash to get away. Ganking as Trundle is pretty straight forward: use w to get in range (if necessary- otherwise save it for when you’re autoing them), pillar to trap the enemy, then chomp and autoattack them until they’re dead.
Teamfighting:
In general, your role in teamfights is to be a disruptive force that controls space. You do this with pillars, subjugating one of their tanks, and smacking their squishies in the face with your club so they feel so threatened they can’t think about anything except the troll in their face trying to bash their skull in. A lot of tanky initiators seriously overestimate how quickly their team can follow up, so you subjugate them and trap them with pillar (or pillar further back so their team can’t advance quickly), and your team can blow them up almost instantly. Typically you want to slow down anyone running toward your squishes by chomping them (and kill them outright as described above if possible- always try to use subjugate on the enemy tank), but the bulk of your time should be spent in the face of the enemy ADC or AP carry, threatening to kill them if they don’t run. This buys time for your team to focus their attention on any threats that are ignoring you, and make short work of them. Once you chase their ADC or AP carry away (or kill them), you can turn back around and pillar and chomp whoever is running after your squishes (if those threats haven’t been neutralized yet), reuniting yourself with your team and most likely killing the enemy front line. Takeaway: Trundle’s a threat to squishes and tanks a like, and you have to decide whether peeling/isolating targets or diving is appropriate depending on the situation (the optimal choice often flip flops even in a single team fight).
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If you ever play Trundle jungle, please do not go Spirit of the Ancient Golem first. Most junglers have a means to clear creeps other than their autos. Trundle however, only has his autos and an auto reset on his q. If you go Spirit of the Ancient Golem, you're only clearing camps as fast as that, and its hideously slow and is the absolutely fastest way to becoming completely irrelevant. Even if you're ganking 24/7, you probably cannot get away with it because your damage output isn't enough to be a threat.
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On August 09 2013 08:32 zer0das wrote: If you ever play Trundle jungle, please do not go Spirit of the Ancient Golem first. Most junglers have a means to clear creeps other than their autos. Trundle however, only has his autos and an auto reset on his q. If you go Spirit of the Ancient Golem, you're only clearing camps as fast as that, and its hideously slow and is the absolutely fastest way to becoming completely irrelevant. Even if you're ganking 24/7, you probably cannot get away with it because your damage output isn't enough to be a threat. I've seen high elo Lee Sins (yesterday it was Chaox) get full tank builds: aegis + ancient golem. They do very little damage and eventually I start to question why they didn't pick a tankier champion. Lee sin has his shield, and is very manueverable, but not every champion is stronger if you just build tankiness on them. Some really feel useless.
Or maybe you're supposed to feel useless as a tank. There are so many high elo players that build ancient golem and aegis on everyone that I start to doubt myself.
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I'm pretty surprised this guy isn't more popular. On paper his kit looks weak because of a lack of scaling, but I feel that pillar is one of the best spells in the game. I mean, what other champ can create terrain? Basically, only Jarvan and Anivia (Karthus not really). You will never see an Anivia jungle, and Jarvan's Cataclysm is an ult.
Also, Trundle is absolutely ridiculous if you start boots. It is a little cheesy b/c you won't clear too well if you fail your lvl 3 gank, but your level 3 gank is amazing.
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Shhhh, dont say a word. Can You please delate this guide? Trundle sucks! Dont play him! Its worst champ in LoL.
PS. You are taking away my free LP, by making people aware of Trundle. Please stop!
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Part of the reason why he's unpopular is he's not a very sexy jungler. He doesn't have flashy long-range initiation like J4 or Zac and Pillar is a very difficult skill to use to its full potential. He also has a slow clear since he still needs to auto every little creep in a camp twice. I haven't gotten to play him in top lane though, I don't know why he doesn't show up there.
There's probably an extra effect from new Trundle being incredibly generic in visual and sound design (bitter? Me? Never.) but can't do much about that.
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