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I don't like staying on razor because it just offers armor and monster killing passives, in which case, randuins is way more useful in fights. And the point isn't to clear the jungle faster, it's to keep the jungle health (obviously it's a little slower, but theres no noticable difference in the first clear anyways) and to improve my ganking ability if it does turn a little hairy.
My health after going clothpots going wolves blue wraiths wolves red is basically the same as going 2beads+3 pots, the former using 3 pots the latter using 2. Plus usually i have to wait a bit for ppl to get out of position anways, so the beads heal me even more. Cloth5 will never run out of health in the first clear, but it does have problems for me in the 2nd when i start golems. Beads fares similarly.
The ganking potential is what i'm experimenting with; with any machete start, you're going to get items that are basically useless for ganks. I normally like to maximize my time in the jungle while above 60% health in order to be useful to my lanes, so I tried the beads approach and I was basically at 50% until the next blue buff, which is a pretty long time for me. I can also skip boots in favor of vamp scepter because of his q. Situational though. Once he gets the vamp scept+2regen beads, you're free to do whatever you want. Finish hydra later, build randuins first. Passive game? Get avarice blade for more money. People dying left and right? Phage. It's very flexible after that, and the only reason I'm not doing better with it is because I'm still stuck in ELO hell and I have at least 1 heavy feeder in every game.
Since noc clears so fast anyways, I'm trying to find something other than machete builds that works with him which would improve my ganking potential without sacrificing all of my jungling health.
I do have to say that noc becomes a glass cannon if I decide to rush hydra or some atk item first. The path taht works best for me, provided I get at least a kill or 2 assists, is 2beads+3pots > vamp scept> boots+cloth armor(s)>wardens mail>belt>randuins > whatever. Snowballing could change it to rushing hydra first.
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On January 14 2013 10:43 imBLIND wrote:I don't like staying on razor because it just offers armor and monster killing passives, in which case, randuins is way more useful in fights. And the point isn't to clear the jungle faster, it's to keep the jungle health (obviously it's a little slower, but theres no noticable difference in the first clear anyways) and to improve my ganking ability if it does turn a little hairy.
Huh? Razor is 700 gold, only 400 on top of the machette. Omen is 3100. It's like you're saying that you'd rather have a trinity force than a brutalizer, the two things aren't comparable because their prices are so drastically different.
On January 14 2013 10:43 imBLIND wrote:My health after going clothpots going wolves blue wraiths wolves red is basically the same as going 2beads+3 pots, the former using 3 pots the latter using 2. Plus usually i have to wait a bit for ppl to get out of position anways, so the beads heal me even more. Cloth5 will never run out of health in the first clear, but it does have problems for me in the 2nd when i start golems. Beads fares similarly.
Why are people resisting machette so much? The clear time with machette is much better than either of these starts and both madred's and spirit stone are incredibly efficient and drastically increase clear times. I can understand resisting wriggle's and larger spirit stone upgrades, but being stubborn about machette -> first upgrade is only hurting you in the new jungle.
On January 14 2013 10:43 imBLIND wrote:The ganking potential is what i'm experimenting with; with any machete start, you're going to get items that are basically useless for ganks. I normally like to maximize my time in the jungle while above 60% health in order to be useful to my lanes, so I tried the beads approach and I was basically at 50% until the next blue buff, which is a pretty long time for me. I can also skip boots in favor of vamp scepter because of his q. Situational though. Once he gets the vamp scept+2regen beads, you're free to do whatever you want. Finish hydra later, build randuins first. Passive game? Get avarice blade for more money. People dying left and right? Phage. It's very flexible after that, and the only reason I'm not doing better with it is because I'm still stuck in ELO hell and I have at least 1 heavy feeder in every game.
that's a bad way to look at it. your clear speed is tied to your level and item progressions, both of which increase your gank potential. not to mention your experimental starts are with hp/5 and armor, which are both borderline useless ganking stats too (also not to mention that razor does give you hyper efficient armor for it's upgrade cost over machette, 400 gold for 25 armor is actually even higher efficiency than chain vest). again, if you want to play with not going to wriggle's, that's a reasonable goal, but machette -> razor is pretty much non-negotiable on noct right now.
On January 14 2013 10:43 imBLIND wrote:Since noc clears so fast anyways, I'm trying to find something other than machete builds that works with him which would improve my ganking potential without sacrificing all of my jungling health.
I do have to say that noc becomes a glass cannon if I decide to rush hydra or some atk item first. The path taht works best for me, provided I get at least a kill or 2 assists, is 2beads+3pots > vamp scept> boots+cloth armor(s)>wardens mail>belt>randuins > whatever. Snowballing could change it to rushing hydra first.
here's really the crux of why I'm baffled at your build. you post this progression and you're looking at 2 rejuv beads, followed by vamp scepter, boots, and cloth. you're not even using the early rejuv beads for anything and you're building all the components for wriggle's except the machette, which you could put in place of the 2 beads and end up with a wriggle's. I mean, you're not even using the rejuv beads on your next big ticket item either, they're just dead end items eating up 2 slots in your inventory along with another 2 slots on vamp scepter + cloth, when you could be condensing all that power into one slot for the same gold and more stats.
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If you're worried about being squishy you can do the warmogs rush that the koreans and chinese have been doing but you should definitely still get at least madred's first.
I mean if you just do a simple +/- analysis on health regen vs a madred's it's very simple to see why madred's is better.
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On January 14 2013 18:28 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: If you're worried about being squishy you can do the warmogs rush that the koreans and chinese have been doing but you should definitely still get at least madred's first.
I mean if you just do a simple +/- analysis on health regen vs a madred's it's very simple to see why madred's is better.
I've tried golem stone builds as well for the building pretty much pure tank option. You actually still clear at a respectable speed because you oneshot all the small creeps with Q+passive, and single target with ~150-200 per auto is very tolerable. The one advantage is that with the small amount of mana regen that the golem stone provides, you'll have a full mana bar jungling the whole time(normally it decreases pretty slowly while jungling). Probably need a damage item somewhere (brut/wits both good) to not become worthless past 15-20min.
But yeah, machete upgrades are not really optional, and neither are machete openings.
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On January 14 2013 18:00 Mogwai wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2013 10:43 imBLIND wrote:I don't like staying on razor because it just offers armor and monster killing passives, in which case, randuins is way more useful in fights. And the point isn't to clear the jungle faster, it's to keep the jungle health (obviously it's a little slower, but theres no noticable difference in the first clear anyways) and to improve my ganking ability if it does turn a little hairy. Huh? Razor is 700 gold, only 400 on top of the machette. Omen is 3100. It's like you're saying that you'd rather have a trinity force than a brutalizer, the two things aren't comparable because their prices are so drastically different.
Sorry, i meant to say warden's mail, the part that builds into randuin. It's only 400 gold more than a razor now, and if I want armor, 300+300 for 2 cloth armors totaling 30 armor > 25 armor at 700. The end item is more useful, and razor only builds into wriggles. I know i'm a little strapped for item slots, but it's not that big of a deal as long as I combine them in time.
Show nested quote +On January 14 2013 10:43 imBLIND wrote:My health after going clothpots going wolves blue wraiths wolves red is basically the same as going 2beads+3 pots, the former using 3 pots the latter using 2. Plus usually i have to wait a bit for ppl to get out of position anways, so the beads heal me even more. Cloth5 will never run out of health in the first clear, but it does have problems for me in the 2nd when i start golems. Beads fares similarly. Why are people resisting machette so much? The clear time with machette is much better than either of these starts and both madred's and spirit stone are incredibly efficient and drastically increase clear times. I can understand resisting wriggle's and larger spirit stone upgrades, but being stubborn about machette -> first upgrade is only hurting you in the new jungle.
I know the machette is faster and efficient. The only thing I'm finding right now is that my junglers that start with machete generally tend to end up getting torn apart in the early teamfights where I have about ~1000 gold locked up into not very useful items that only kill creeps. The faster speed for the +200 gold? I don't know what I can do with that. I understand that this is all theorycrafting, but I'm just trying to find something that works about as well as the machete5 start.
Show nested quote +On January 14 2013 10:43 imBLIND wrote:The ganking potential is what i'm experimenting with; with any machete start, you're going to get items that are basically useless for ganks. I normally like to maximize my time in the jungle while above 60% health in order to be useful to my lanes, so I tried the beads approach and I was basically at 50% until the next blue buff, which is a pretty long time for me. I can also skip boots in favor of vamp scepter because of his q. Situational though. Once he gets the vamp scept+2regen beads, you're free to do whatever you want. Finish hydra later, build randuins first. Passive game? Get avarice blade for more money. People dying left and right? Phage. It's very flexible after that, and the only reason I'm not doing better with it is because I'm still stuck in ELO hell and I have at least 1 heavy feeder in every game. that's a bad way to look at it. your clear speed is tied to your level and item progressions, both of which increase your gank potential. not to mention your experimental starts are with hp/5 and armor, which are both borderline useless ganking stats too (also not to mention that razor does give you hyper efficient armor for it's upgrade cost over machette, 400 gold for 25 armor is actually even higher efficiency than chain vest). again, if you want to play with not going to wriggle's, that's a reasonable goal, but machette -> razor is pretty much non-negotiable on noct right now.
hp/5 and armor are still more useful than creep killing items. I can win most exchanges with other junglers 1v1 until the mid comes because I at least have a stat that helps deal with other champions. The problem I'm facing is that I have to delay boots in order to keep up in case if there is a 2nd engagement, which I don't really mind, but it's annoying if I happen to miss my q.
Show nested quote +On January 14 2013 10:43 imBLIND wrote:Since noc clears so fast anyways, I'm trying to find something other than machete builds that works with him which would improve my ganking potential without sacrificing all of my jungling health.
I do have to say that noc becomes a glass cannon if I decide to rush hydra or some atk item first. The path taht works best for me, provided I get at least a kill or 2 assists, is 2beads+3pots > vamp scept> boots+cloth armor(s)>wardens mail>belt>randuins > whatever. Snowballing could change it to rushing hydra first. here's really the crux of why I'm baffled at your build. you post this progression and you're looking at 2 rejuv beads, followed by vamp scepter, boots, and cloth. you're not even using the early rejuv beads for anything and you're building all the components for wriggle's except the machette, which you could put in place of the 2 beads and end up with a wriggle's. I mean, you're not even using the rejuv beads on your next big ticket item either, they're just dead end items eating up 2 slots in your inventory along with another 2 slots on vamp scepter + cloth, when you could be condensing all that power into one slot for the same gold and more stats.
It's experimental. It's prone to change. I'm finding that 1 bead is not noticable enough to not get the machete, so those variations are out of the question. Starting water crystal is slower and offers no advantages either. The only other opener I haven't tried yet is sword+2pots, which seems like it would lower my jungling health way too low to be of any use. Then the other one I considered was a quick recall when I get 600 gold after boots3 for 2 cloth armors, but I found that to be slower than a machete opening. 2beads3pots is the only one I've found that can remotely compete against machete5, other than the old cloth5 opening. I know that it's slower, but I don't like how machete>razor progresses. It's 700 gold to put aside for jungling speed, which is the stat I want to replace. The problem im trying to overcome is that you need more gold before you come back before you can afford to trump the +25 armor the razors give you for 400 gold after the machete start. It's called experimenting for a reason; giving up sometihng that works in order to find something hopefully better
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On January 14 2013 18:48 Amui wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2013 18:28 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: If you're worried about being squishy you can do the warmogs rush that the koreans and chinese have been doing but you should definitely still get at least madred's first.
I mean if you just do a simple +/- analysis on health regen vs a madred's it's very simple to see why madred's is better. I've tried golem stone builds as well for the building pretty much pure tank option. You actually still clear at a respectable speed because you oneshot all the small creeps with Q+passive, and single target with ~150-200 per auto is very tolerable. The one advantage is that with the small amount of mana regen that the golem stone provides, you'll have a full mana bar jungling the whole time(normally it decreases pretty slowly while jungling). Probably need a damage item somewhere (brut/wits both good) to not become worthless past 15-20min. But yeah, machete upgrades are not really optional, and neither are machete openings.
What are you opening if you're not doing machete?
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Going 2 beads is about as useful as a machete in early fights anyways. Considering Machete is 300g and double Bead is 360, if you get in an early fight, a health potion will probably outclass double bead anyways.
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Roffles
Pitcairn19291 Posts
Tradeoff really is that I'm probably level 6 with Machete, you're level 4 without Machete and struggling to clear.
Every time I've seen a non-Machete start, the jungler just clears insanely slow and has to grab tons of lane exp in order to not fall too far behind.
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On January 14 2013 21:33 AFKing wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2013 18:48 Amui wrote:On January 14 2013 18:28 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: If you're worried about being squishy you can do the warmogs rush that the koreans and chinese have been doing but you should definitely still get at least madred's first.
I mean if you just do a simple +/- analysis on health regen vs a madred's it's very simple to see why madred's is better. I've tried golem stone builds as well for the building pretty much pure tank option. You actually still clear at a respectable speed because you oneshot all the small creeps with Q+passive, and single target with ~150-200 per auto is very tolerable. The one advantage is that with the small amount of mana regen that the golem stone provides, you'll have a full mana bar jungling the whole time(normally it decreases pretty slowly while jungling). Probably need a damage item somewhere (brut/wits both good) to not become worthless past 15-20min. But yeah, machete upgrades are not really optional, and neither are machete openings. What are you opening if you're not doing machete?
I thought the way I worded it was clear, but apparently not. machete is mandatory.
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So with the buff to Spirit of the Lizard Elder, it provides the same AD and CDR as Black Cleaver for 600 less total gold, while providing 2 passives and HP/Mana regen instead of 10Apen, 250 HP, and the BC passive. HP regen keeps my jungling health up and I've also been having mana management issues so the Mana Regen would help.
I've been torn on just sitting on Machete/Razor or Spirit Stone and trying to build 1 damage item before going tanky, but now I'm gonna try getting Lizard Elder into tanky.
Machete + Brutalizer is 1637. Razor + Brutalizer is 2037. Spirit of the Lizard Elder is 2400. Wriggles + Brutalizer is 2937. Machete + BC is 3300. Razor + BC is 3700. Spirit Stone + BC is 3800. Wriggles + BC is 4600.
Dan Dinh had been getting Wriggles + Lizard Elder into tanky during S3. What do you guys think about the buffed Lizard Elder?
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Anyone doing the new "popular" Madreds + Zerkers into Warmogs rush? It's working great for me until like midgame but I dunno what to build next. I usually rush Bruta and go from there, but I'm kinda liking the lifesteal and overall ward utility of Wriggles, as it's EXTREMELY cheap at 100 gold, I get Madreds anyway and Vamp Scepter is not a half bad item on Noct. Note, if I plan to get Wriggles I tend to get it before Warmogs even though it slows it down a bit because by midgame it's just not a very efficient item and you won't get as many wards out of it.
The question is, what do I do NEXT? BT maybe? Cleaver right after Bruta? Maw? Lizard Elder? Or even build more tanky/CDR like Aegis/Bulwark or Kindlegem items?
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On February 06 2013 23:34 Plague1503 wrote: Anyone doing the new "popular" Madreds + Zerkers into Warmogs rush? It's working great for me until like midgame but I dunno what to build next. I usually rush Bruta and go from there, but I'm kinda liking the lifesteal and overall ward utility of Wriggles, as it's EXTREMELY cheap at 100 gold, I get Madreds anyway and Vamp Scepter is not a half bad item on Noct. Note, if I plan to get Wriggles I tend to get it before Warmogs even though it slows it down a bit because by midgame it's just not a very efficient item and you won't get as many wards out of it.
The question is, what do I do NEXT? BT maybe? Cleaver right after Bruta? Maw? Lizard Elder? Or even build more tanky/CDR like Aegis/Bulwark or Kindlegem items?
Why do people keep circlejerking over the 100 recipe price, when the actual price is 900? As a Jungler, you are already suppose to start with machete - 5, and upgrading to a madred's is a given on Nocturne. So that leaves 900 gold to complete Wriggles. 800g is a shitty spend on a vampiric scepter when nocturne already has built in life steal and his speed. Thats like fucking saying that Trinity Force is EXTREMELY cheap at 3 gold.
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On February 07 2013 03:28 birdkicker wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2013 23:34 Plague1503 wrote: Anyone doing the new "popular" Madreds + Zerkers into Warmogs rush? It's working great for me until like midgame but I dunno what to build next. I usually rush Bruta and go from there, but I'm kinda liking the lifesteal and overall ward utility of Wriggles, as it's EXTREMELY cheap at 100 gold, I get Madreds anyway and Vamp Scepter is not a half bad item on Noct. Note, if I plan to get Wriggles I tend to get it before Warmogs even though it slows it down a bit because by midgame it's just not a very efficient item and you won't get as many wards out of it.
The question is, what do I do NEXT? BT maybe? Cleaver right after Bruta? Maw? Lizard Elder? Or even build more tanky/CDR like Aegis/Bulwark or Kindlegem items?
Why do people keep circlejerking over the 100 recipe price, when the actual price is 900? As a Jungler, you are already suppose to start with machete - 5, and upgrading to a madred's is a given on Nocturne. So that leaves 900 gold to complete Wriggles. 800g is a shitty spend on a vampiric scepter when nocturne already has built in life steal and his speed. Thats like fucking saying that Trinity Force is EXTREMELY cheap at 3 gold. It could be a 500 recipe price or something, im sure people wouldnt be jerking off over it then huh a hurr hurr. Triforce also received like 300-> 3 gold or something? thats a big change.
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shouldnt go warmogs anymore, too expensive now.
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On February 07 2013 03:28 birdkicker wrote: Why do people keep circlejerking over the 100 recipe price, when the actual price is 900? As a Jungler, you are already suppose to start with machete - 5, and upgrading to a madred's is a given on Nocturne. So that leaves 900 gold to complete Wriggles. 800g is a shitty spend on a vampiric scepter when nocturne already has built in life steal and his speed. Thats like fucking saying that Trinity Force is EXTREMELY cheap at 3 gold. I like having additional sustain in the form of lifesteal, so I'm building a Vamp Scepter anyway in most cases.
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Nocturne is ridiculous right now in solo queue
Smite/Exhaust
MS/AD/Armor/Scaling MR
21/9/0
QEQWQR R>Q>E>W
Open Machete + 5 pots -> Razor + Zerks -> Giant's Belt -> Sunfire then get mad tanky, I usually go Randuins next but Visage and Veil are both OP right now so if you need MR get a cowl and one of those
Basically you are invincible in teamfights and your main purpose is to fear people and randuins proc then ult their carries to keep them from doing damage or if you see someone out of position
As long as you have good game sense and a team that will engage you can pick fights whenever you see ones that you win
Early game camp top lane with exhaust to set them behind or outright kill them and take towers whenever you can because Nocturne's early game value is a lot higher when they don't have a tower in their lane
You're gonna be insanely tanky and still doing pretty good damage in teamfights with Sunfire (although I do agree that this is probably not optimal at higher levels... not sure really, I just don't see any pros do it but I have always thought Sunfire was amazing, probably more so than I should)
Exhaust people who try to escape you or a carry to cut their damage and get that fear tether/randuins off on their ADC or whoever you need to take out
Usually I don't spend my time peeling as Nocturne unless my carry surviving is more important than their carry not doing damage, and even then I just get a fear off and ult their ADC
If you feel like it you can sell razor for Hydra/Zephyr/BotRK/Mallet but I think Zephyr is the best out of these options for the most part
[edit] 3 Nocturne games in a row and I'm plat 4 now yay! [/edit]
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Ult so strong in low level play. Also a good counter to shen as it makes it harder for him to ult into a fight at the very start.
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I feel like there's a sweet spot on the ladder where people are smart enough to use ult and not bait horrible fights but other players still don't understand how to play around it. Noc's great because of his gank potential in solo queue and how fast he takes down towers with a creepwave. If you are a smart player and can identify good plays vs bad ones pretty consistently he'll gain you a lot of LP.
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Why razor over golem spirit if you're being a tanky douchebag who sits on the ad carry's face? Golem spirit + Ninja Tabi seems pretty good for that.
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Whats with the weird defensive masteries?
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