(Q) Duskbringer: Nocturne throws a shadow blade which deals damage, leaves a Dusk Trail, and causes champions to leave a Dusk Trail. While on the trail, Nocturne ignores unit collision and has increased Movement Speed and Attack Damage.
(W) Shroud of Darkness: Nocturne empowers his blades, passively gaining attack speed. Activating Shroud of Darkness allows Nocturne to fade into the shadows, creating a magical barrier which blocks a single enemy spell and doubles his passive attack speed if successful. (E) Unspeakable Horror: Nocturne plants a nightmare into his target's mind, dealing damage each second and fearing the target if they do not get out of range by the end of the duration.
(R) Paranoia: Nocturne reduces the sight radius of all enemy champions and removes their ally vision in the process. He can then launch himself at a nearby enemy champion. (Passive) Umbra Blades: Every 10 seconds, Nocturne's next attack strikes surrounding enemies for physical damage and heals himself for each target hit. Nocturne's physical attacks reduce this cooldown by 1 second.
Synopsis: Nocturne is a melee ganker who can jungle. He functions something like a mixture of Master Yi, Shaco, and Twisted Fate. He doesn't have the carry potential of Yi, the ganking of Shaco pre 6, or the true global control of TF - but instead has a potent mix of all three's strengths. Playstyle: It seems like the best place for Nocturne is the jungle, but who knows if that changes as people use him more often. He's a good chaser, pusher, ganker, and anti carry. He is very strong in 1v1s and is one of the fastest farmers in the game with Q spam and his very high attack speed.
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My Build:
Masteries: 21/0/9
Runes:
9x Blue Greater Glyphs of Alacrity 9x Yellow Greater Seals of Alacrity 6x Red Great Marks of Alacrity 3x Red Greater Marks of Desolation 3x Greater Quintessence of Damage
for 23% Attack Speed and 15 Armor Pen. I use these runes because they allow you to take Q at level 1 for the jungle (your attack speed runes work better with the damage from Q than more attack speed from W) and with the 21 offensive masteries, you reduce the creeps armor at Level 1 to 0.
Skill Order:
Q W Q E Q R R>Q>E>W
Item Build:
Cloth Armor w/ 5 HP Boots Boots Wriggles Brutalizer Merc Treads Ghostblade B Veil GA Cleaver/Last Whisper/ Infinity Edge Sell Wriggles -> Bloodthirster
*Take Q first and start at Blue. You will absolutely shred it with or without a pull.
**Nocturne is VERY new so this build is subject to change. Try your own stuff out and report back and we can make that build 100x better.
This thread should be delayed until next patch. He is likely going to be nerfed in to nothingness, as his mechanics, by nature, take advantage of poor play of your opponents.
In my opinion, his itemization should maximize his CDR, since he has an awesome kit. So definitely a yes for Youmuus. I'm kinda suicidal, so I tend to build my characters more tanky. I'll probably go Phage/Spirit Visage to go with that.
Sword of the divine imo. 30 armor pen real synergy with his abilities. He doesn't really fight very long, and the proc has nice synergy with solo pushing and you can always jump into a gank with your SOTD proc up.
Guinsoo -> hextechgunblade -> hog blue buff low cooldown on abilities that scale well off ad and ap and an oncommand slow and as boosts start vamp scepter
Teamfighting is very tricky for nocturne. He puts out good damage but gets shot down in .5 seconds if focused, and your ult is great for confusion but if you don't have vision of their out-of-position squishy, you can't jump him.
It feels like you're a weird mix of Yi and tiger Udyr, who commits extremely hard to fights. While he can take a jungle route that allows him to gank at 4, it seems he ends up lowish hp and the gank isn't that strong anyway, so a sustained lvl 6 rush path is probably best.
His ult feels really high cd early game so you better make them count. Later in the game it seems to be up for every important fight.
I agree on a lot of stuff here. Wriggles seems like overkill but it feels silly to get Madreds and not upgrade for the ward and lifesteal. Maybe not even going Madreds is viable on him? Definitely have to play around with that.
CDR does seem clutch on him, but I can't figure out what else I would get for it besides Ghostblade.
And I definitely want to find a tankier way to build him. Mallet sounds great on him but I don't know where to fit it in or what to compliment it with. Wriggles, Frozen Mallet, Atmas Impaler, GA, I Edge/Black Cleaver? I dunno.
On March 17 2011 06:29 fadestep wrote: I agree on a lot of stuff here. Wriggles seems like overkill but it feels silly to get Madreds and not upgrade for the ward and lifesteal. Maybe not even going Madreds is viable on him? Definitely have to play around with that.
CDR does seem clutch on him, but I can't figure out what else I would get for it besides Ghostblade.
And I definitely want to find a tankier way to build him. Mallet sounds great on him but I don't know where to fit it in or what to compliment it with. Wriggles, Frozen Mallet, Atmas Impaler, GA, I Edge/Black Cleaver? I dunno.
Not going maldreds on someone who relies almost purely on autoattacks in jungle is quite foolish. Wriggles core on him imo, just too good not to get for its price.
If you want tankiness, how about Warmog/Atma? I'm seeing Yi with those items pretty often and it feels quite strong since he can actively participate in teamfights late game, not just backdoor.
I find it hard to believe I need wriggles when I kill the camps faster than they respawn with just a dagger.
Dagger + potion start = clear 4 jungle camps (everything except red) in 3:15 with 250HP leftover with no leash. Probably higher if golems were leashed.
Wriggles gives a lot of utility and synergy with aspd champs like nocturne, as it lets you kill dragon / buffs very quickly, which not only speeds up your jungle/counterjungle but gives you more time to gank. At the same time, you can heal pretty quickly off of neutrals and avoid wasting mana. And, free ward every 3 minutes.
You don't get it for the same reason you don't get it on amumu or phoenix udyr (aside from the fact that amumu doesn't use much attack speed)...because you can buy something ELSE with the money that you need more and it doesn't even speed up your jungling at ALL past a certain point because you're basically 2-shotting two of the 5 camps.
Heck, I know he has an attack speed steroid that helps wriggles a lot, but given how assassiny he is and the fact that he can jungle very very fast without it, I want to look @ alternatives like a fast zerker greaves (you get it before you hit level 6) into brutalizer.
Amumu doesn't use lifesteal and AD too much though so you are wasting stats buying lantern on him. Lantern on high aspd champs speeds up dragon and baron quite much though...
The reasons amumu and phoenix udyr don't get wriggles are a bit different. They both have aoe spells which clear jungle very fast, their aspd is low, and they fulfill different roles than straight dps in teamfights. Another example of a wriggle-less user is nunu, who already has consume to sustain himself and doesn't autoattack much in teamfights.
I agree that it's tempting to use the money for items like brutalizer, but you lose quite a bit of utility and if your ganks don't pay off you're left in a very bad spot. Also, wriggles gives you only 2 less damage on base stats than brutalizer, so you're trading the proc, active and 30 armor for 10% cd and 15 apen.
Btw I'm only arguing here because I used to hate wriggles but have since changed my mind.
But Nocturne has craptons of AoE damage >.> Q + auto 1-shots the wraiths at level 9 (or sooner, i dunno). Pretty sure his clear is way faster with zerker greaves than with razor simply because he moves around faster and his tiamat comes out more often.
EDIT: [b]The below is wrong. It looked like this was the case on a stream, but after testing it the Madred's proc doesn't spread.
It should be noted that his passive works like Tiamat, if you proc Madred's/Wriggle's the damage spreads. It's reasonable to assume that Sheen/Trinity damage would also spread.
Other than that Sheen/Trinity don't really seem like they'd be good items for him. I'd assume if you don't grab Wriggle's you'd just rush Ghostblade.
Noc definitely needs Wiggle's otherwise he gets beat down against every Red/Blue he attempts. The comparison to Udyr and Amumu is utterly baseless. Both of them are jungle tanks and they use spells to get through their jungle. Noc is more like Yi and Olaf. Most of their damage is auto attacking.
On March 17 2011 08:01 Lanzoma wrote: Also, I've been trying to find a hero which benefits from both Ghostblade and Brutalizer (passives stack) in a build, and I think he might be the one.
You should look at Xin.
And Wriggles is incredible for jungling. I can see reasons for trying to work it out of a build for a specific item rush, but in general its amazing and his attack speed make it absolutely ridiculous. After reading your reasons for not getting Wriggles I'm way more certain than ever that you need it.
On March 17 2011 08:14 NeoIllusions wrote: lolz...
Noc definitely needs Wiggle's otherwise he gets beat down against every Red/Blue he attempts. The comparison to Udyr and Amumu is utterly baseless. Both of them are jungle tanks and they use spells to get through their jungle. Noc is more like Yi and Olaf. Most of their damage is auto attacking.
I thought jungling olaf without wriggles was viable at some point in favor of heart of gold....
I seriously don't feel like his jungle speed is anything short of amazing with or without wriggles. A faster brutalizer and zerker greaves make his terror factor go up a whole lot and nocturne rides this terror factor pretty well.
On March 17 2011 08:01 Lanzoma wrote: Also, I've been trying to find a hero which benefits from both Ghostblade and Brutalizer (passives stack) in a build, and I think he might be the one.
On March 17 2011 08:14 NeoIllusions wrote: lolz...
Noc definitely needs Wiggle's otherwise he gets beat down against every Red/Blue he attempts. The comparison to Udyr and Amumu is utterly baseless. Both of them are jungle tanks and they use spells to get through their jungle. Noc is more like Yi and Olaf. Most of their damage is auto attacking.
I thought jungling olaf without wriggles was viable at some point in favor of heart of gold....
I seriously don't feel like his jungle speed is anything short of amazing with or without wriggles. A faster brutalizer and zerker greaves make his terror factor go up a whole lot and nocturne rides this terror factor pretty well.
Olaf and Udyr used to not need Wiggle's but the current meta is that pretty much all DPS junglers build Wiggle's so they have an doable chance at Dragon at level 6. Prior to the Dragon buff (single target AS debuff), champs like Olaf and Udyr didn't need Madred's.
As it is now, the two mainstay junglers that don't need Wiggle's are Amumu and Rammus. Both use spells to clear and spec better with Magic Pen Red than AS Red.
TL;DR without Wiggle's, doing Red takes forever and you lose a lot of health.
Masteries: 21 0 9 Runes: AS Quints, AS Red, Flat Armor Yellow, MR/Level Blue Skills: QWQEQR, R > Q > E > W Items: Cloth armor + 5 hp pots => Boots => Wiggles => Brutalizer => Merc Treads => Ghostblade => Banshee's => Sunfire => LW/Stark's/FH
Open Blue, Wolves, Wraiths, Red, Golem, gank a side lane. You can solo Blue at level 1 but you end with 100-200 hp at the end of the first jungle run. If you get your allies to leash Blue, you can end up with more hp, letting you to gank more easily without dying.
Up until level 8-10, prioritze on damage. Early Brutalizer + Ulti + E means you mow down any squishy. Time your W to block stuns/slows.
Late game, you have to build tanky. Ghostblade and its active is sufficient on the offensive end of things but you need more survivability to make sure you last in mid/late game team fights. Final item, I haven't found what fits best. Nufann swears by LW.
On March 17 2011 08:01 Lanzoma wrote: Also, I've been trying to find a hero which benefits from both Ghostblade and Brutalizer (passives stack) in a build, and I think he might be the one.
You should look at Xin.
The problem with Xin is that if you don't go tanky ASAP you're insta-gibbed the moment you E->R into a fight. Nocturne might be able to get away with it because of ult allowing you blink towards whoever you want at will.
Definitely not a fan of jungle Xin. He's like Malph, able to jungle but he has such a strong presence in lane. You're doing your team a disservice jungling instead of laning.
I'm getting positive results from using a more defensive spec for jungling. Your health stays high all the time and you shouldnt be so squishy. It also allows you to do some heavier invasion. You already dish a ton of damage anyways, so it trades off in time you stay alive. I also tend to do some suicidal moves, so with defensive stats I don't die as much, lol! Just food for thought.
On March 17 2011 08:14 NeoIllusions wrote: lolz...
Noc definitely needs Wiggle's otherwise he gets beat down against every Red/Blue he attempts. The comparison to Udyr and Amumu is utterly baseless. Both of them are jungle tanks and they use spells to get through their jungle. Noc is more like Yi and Olaf. Most of their damage is auto attacking.
I thought jungling olaf without wriggles was viable at some point in favor of heart of gold....
I seriously don't feel like his jungle speed is anything short of amazing with or without wriggles. A faster brutalizer and zerker greaves make his terror factor go up a whole lot and nocturne rides this terror factor pretty well.
Olaf and Udyr used to not need Wiggle's but the current meta is that pretty much all DPS junglers build Wiggle's so they have an doable chance at Dragon at level 6. Prior to the Dragon buff (single target AS debuff), champs like Olaf and Udyr didn't need Madred's.
As it is now, the two mainstay junglers that don't need Wiggle's are Amumu and Rammus. Both use spells to clear and spec better with Magic Pen Red than AS Red.
TL;DR without Wiggle's, doing Red takes forever and you lose a lot of health.
Dragon argument is great. Being slow/bad at taking buff i am not so convinced. For reference, at level 9 you can kill red under 12 seconds with 3 dblades and lose like 90HP.
Not saying you should build 3dblade or anything.
He's really just a champ that I feel need to squeeze out whatever he can because of his assassin nature -> absolute terror if he can assassinate the carry 1v1 because he can force it really easily.
Sheen isn't actually that bad on this guy...surprised =o
Edit: Bleh, ended up going wriggles anyways. Nocturne is so strong as a split pusher. Need wriggles for mass warding later on~
On March 17 2011 09:13 NeoIllusions wrote: Masteries: 21 0 9 Runes: AS Quints, AS Red, Flat Armor Yellow, MR/Level Blue Skills: QWQEQR, R > Q > E > W Items: Cloth armor + 5 hp pots => Boots => Wiggles => Brutalizer => Merc Treads => Ghostblade => Banshee's => Sunfire => LW/Stark's/FH
Open Blue, Wolves, Wraiths, Red, Golem, gank a side lane. You can solo Blue at level 1 but you end with 100-200 hp at the end of the first jungle run. If you get your allies to leash Blue, you can end up with more hp, letting you to gank more easily without dying.
Up until level 8-10, prioritze on damage. Early Brutalizer + Ulti + E means you mow down any squishy. Time your W to block stuns/slows.
Late game, you have to build tanky. Ghostblade and its active is sufficient on the offensive end of things but you need more survivability to make sure you last in mid/late game team fights. Final item, I haven't found what fits best. Nufann swears by LW.
What's your reasoning for sunfire?
I find Randuins Omen / Frozen Heart much more usefull. Hell, even Thornmail tbh.
I love the rest of your build, especially delaying boots is pretty nice on him.
For final item I wouldn't do Frozen Heart after Sunfire (too much armor imo). Either more MRes or Stark's/LW.
His other jungle nocturne videos are better (certainly the runes are). But I'm not sure I like "sustained" routes on him since I think he's pretty decent at screwing people over with wraith steals or ganks pre-6.
Basically, Nocturne's duskbringer (Q) leaves a trail that mechanically counts as a dying minion when it goes away. Trundle's passive and alistar's heal both abuse this mechanic.
Basically, Nocturne's duskbringer (Q) leaves a trail that mechanically counts as a dying minion when it goes away. Trundle's passive and alistar's heal both abuse this mechanic.
Singed poison is the same mechanically, try it out with Alistar. Dunno if Trundle benefits tho.
On March 17 2011 09:13 NeoIllusions wrote: Masteries: 21 0 9 Runes: AS Quints, AS Red, Flat Armor Yellow, MR/Level Blue Skills: QWQEQR, R > Q > E > W Items: Cloth armor + 5 hp pots => Boots => Wiggles => Brutalizer => Merc Treads => Ghostblade => Banshee's => Sunfire => LW/Stark's/FH
Open Blue, Wolves, Wraiths, Red, Golem, gank a side lane. You can solo Blue at level 1 but you end with 100-200 hp at the end of the first jungle run. If you get your allies to leash Blue, you can end up with more hp, letting you to gank more easily without dying.
Up until level 8-10, prioritze on damage. Early Brutalizer + Ulti + E means you mow down any squishy. Time your W to block stuns/slows.
Late game, you have to build tanky. Ghostblade and its active is sufficient on the offensive end of things but you need more survivability to make sure you last in mid/late game team fights. Final item, I haven't found what fits best. Nufann swears by LW.
What's your reasoning for sunfire?
I find Randuins Omen / Frozen Heart much more usefull. Hell, even Thornmail tbh.
I love the rest of your build, especially delaying boots is pretty nice on him.
For final item I wouldn't do Frozen Heart after Sunfire (too much armor imo). Either more MRes or Stark's/LW.
Items 4-5 should cover HP/MR/Armor, I'm still testing it out. I tried Warmog's as well and it was amusing. I still like a tanky Noc.
Final item I'm still leaning towards LW/Stark's. FH could just take the 5th item slot. The Armor and aura is pretty nice.
@Loco: Smite/Ignite seems nice but I wouldn't advise it. You ulti in, enemy can Flash, Ghost or both. You will always need some type of mobility Summoner skill. If not for offensive reasons, at least defensive then.
I still build BV -> GA on like every Melee DPS and that accounts for roughly 95% of my solo queue games. If you're not building crazy amounts of HP, GA is pretty much as good as it's ever been.
On March 18 2011 02:47 Mogwai wrote: I still build BV -> GA on like every Melee DPS and that accounts for roughly 95% of my solo queue games. If you're not building crazy amounts of HP, GA is pretty much as good as it's ever been.
Did anyone see Master of LoL's first time playing Nocturne? (was in a ranked match too). He went double HoG and mercs, and ended up 16-1 with Randuin's Cleaver, Thirster, and LW (he kept the other HoG)
GA works best on people who have deceptively high EHP due to shields/healing and not so well on people with just massive HP pools. Like, when you have 4K HP and then just respawn with 750, you tend to just die, but when Irelia comes back and fires off her ult and is suddenly back at full with 200/200 Armor/MRes, it's really strong (same with Jarman + Shield, WW + Q, etc).
In general it's just a great deterent from making the opposing team focus you which either lets the rest of your team go to town on them while they waste a ton of time killing you only to have you come back or lets you go to town on their carries (which works out in your favor even if they have GA too since Melee Carries dump on Ranged Carries without intervention).
well, right, cause it used to be trendy to do the whole DOUBLE FUNFIRE -> GA GAREN I RESPAWN WITH 2K HP EVEN IF YOU MANAGE TO KILL ME KK!? fad. You can't do that crap anymore, and it's generally pretty meh on pure tanks, but again, on Melee DPS, it's pro as hell IMO. There's been a shift in it's usage, but it's still good.
last item is Black Cleaver, if the game goes on forever or you get the gold for it, replace Wriggles with Thirster. also sometimes I get ghostblade before mercs, but it's situational of course.
@Loco: Smite/Ignite seems nice but I wouldn't advise it. You ulti in, enemy can Flash, Ghost or both. You will always need some type of mobility Summoner skill. If not for offensive reasons, at least defensive then.
when u ult in u use Q than E instantly,even if they have flash the slow from ur Q will make sure that they wont get away from the tether range,the only way some1 can escape ur ult + QE combo is a jumper(corki,ez,kass etc) with flash
@Loco: Smite/Ignite seems nice but I wouldn't advise it. You ulti in, enemy can Flash, Ghost or both. You will always need some type of mobility Summoner skill. If not for offensive reasons, at least defensive then.
when u ult in u use Q than E instantly,even if they have flash the slow from ur Q will make sure that they wont get away from the tether range,the only way some1 can escape ur ult + QE combo is a jumper(corki,ez,kass etc) with flash
You can Flash as soon as Noc dashes in but right before you can QE. Not to mention Flash can break E's bond. If it's a carry with Flash/Ghost, he'll get away if you can't close the distance. But if you're running Ghost yourself, you can get into Q range, land a good Q and catch up to E. Without any mobility summoners, you'll trade your ulti for 1-2 enemy summoners but I'd much rather guarantee a kill. If you land your full combo RQE, chances are you'll be able to kill them, with or without Ignite/Exhaust.
I just played against Noc as Yi, and we had a 1v1 battle where I was lvl 18 and he was lvl 13, both with wriggles, GB, BF as items, and I barely managed to kill him due to superior korean micro. How is this fair! Yi must still be Yi maaaaaan.
@Loco: Smite/Ignite seems nice but I wouldn't advise it. You ulti in, enemy can Flash, Ghost or both. You will always need some type of mobility Summoner skill. If not for offensive reasons, at least defensive then.
when u ult in u use Q than E instantly,even if they have flash the slow from ur Q will make sure that they wont get away from the tether range,the only way some1 can escape ur ult + QE combo is a jumper(corki,ez,kass etc) with flash
You can Flash as soon as Noc dashes in but right before you can QE. Not to mention Flash can break E's bond. If it's a carry with Flash/Ghost, he'll get away if you can't close the distance. But if you're running Ghost yourself, you can get into Q range, land a good Q and catch up to E. Without any mobility summoners, you'll trade your ulti for 1-2 enemy summoners but I'd much rather guarantee a kill. If you land your full combo RQE, chances are you'll be able to kill them, with or without Ignite/Exhaust.
Add in Red buff and GB active for good measure.
flashing noc's ult near impossible u need to flash right after he hits u and he tends to go through u a bit and land somewhere behind u and u can cast ur shit mid-air
@Loco: Smite/Ignite seems nice but I wouldn't advise it. You ulti in, enemy can Flash, Ghost or both. You will always need some type of mobility Summoner skill. If not for offensive reasons, at least defensive then.
when u ult in u use Q than E instantly,even if they have flash the slow from ur Q will make sure that they wont get away from the tether range,the only way some1 can escape ur ult + QE combo is a jumper(corki,ez,kass etc) with flash
You can Flash as soon as Noc dashes in but right before you can QE. Not to mention Flash can break E's bond. If it's a carry with Flash/Ghost, he'll get away if you can't close the distance. But if you're running Ghost yourself, you can get into Q range, land a good Q and catch up to E. Without any mobility summoners, you'll trade your ulti for 1-2 enemy summoners but I'd much rather guarantee a kill. If you land your full combo RQE, chances are you'll be able to kill them, with or without Ignite/Exhaust.
Add in Red buff and GB active for good measure.
flashing noc's ult near impossible u need to flash right after he hits u and he tends to go through u a bit and land somewhere behind u and u can cast ur shit mid-air
Noc lands, does QE, enemy carry Flash/Ghost. Fear takes at least a second to cast. Even if you land Q, you'd match the enemy's movespeed at best. You're still not going to close the Flash gap.
@Loco: Smite/Ignite seems nice but I wouldn't advise it. You ulti in, enemy can Flash, Ghost or both. You will always need some type of mobility Summoner skill. If not for offensive reasons, at least defensive then.
when u ult in u use Q than E instantly,even if they have flash the slow from ur Q will make sure that they wont get away from the tether range,the only way some1 can escape ur ult + QE combo is a jumper(corki,ez,kass etc) with flash
You can Flash as soon as Noc dashes in but right before you can QE. Not to mention Flash can break E's bond. If it's a carry with Flash/Ghost, he'll get away if you can't close the distance. But if you're running Ghost yourself, you can get into Q range, land a good Q and catch up to E. Without any mobility summoners, you'll trade your ulti for 1-2 enemy summoners but I'd much rather guarantee a kill. If you land your full combo RQE, chances are you'll be able to kill them, with or without Ignite/Exhaust.
Add in Red buff and GB active for good measure.
flashing noc's ult near impossible u need to flash right after he hits u and he tends to go through u a bit and land somewhere behind u and u can cast ur shit mid-air
Noc lands, does QE, enemy carry Flash/Ghost. Fear takes at least a second to cast. Even if you land Q, you'd match the enemy's movespeed at best. You're still not going to close the Flash gap.
idk,this is all theory talk but i have never missed my fear after my ult on a carry that doesnt have natural jump,even worked on hsgg's nid yesterday and he used both flash ghost pounce i think u underestimate the "oh shit" factor of nocturn's ult
On March 18 2011 19:55 necrosed wrote: Damn, I suck with him. I'll try the 2 HoG build, since I die so much.
Try to see yourself more as a cleanup/"Q as many people as you can and E if someone gets close" champ instead of a brawler before you finish your tanky items. You just explode when you enter a teamfight as one of the first obviously.
Also, I have to say... Nocturne ult+WW E / Shrooms / Wards is imba as hell. Especially the WW thing if he maxes it before his W. Great combo. ;D
Just push sidelanes when your team pushes mid. Pretend you're Shen and when someone comes at your lane to stop you, ult mid for 5v4. No need for tankiness at all.
On March 18 2011 10:36 -Kato- wrote: I just played against Noc as Yi, and we had a 1v1 battle where I was lvl 18 and he was lvl 13, both with wriggles, GB, BF as items, and I barely managed to kill him due to superior korean micro. How is this fair! Yi must still be Yi maaaaaan.
QQ
You're doing it wrong. You didn't alpha strike to avoid the fear most likely.
To give a perspective from the 'not very good at playing the game' view (level 20 on EU, needing literally 1xp to get to 21), I can say he's seemed the most powerful of the recent 3 champs. He kind of feels like a master yi no one knows how to handle - so if he gets a bit fed he's an absolute nightmare (hoho) to deal with.
Perhaps he has just slightly too much health regen, but that could be because of playing on TT.
In my opinion he's very strong early game and then late game he needs a lot of team support or he's useless. I think I play him decently, but I've found in most of my games that during the early game I get a lot of ganks and help us gain an advantage, only to be destroyed later on either because the other team has a better comp or we as a team can't successfully shut down the most powerful carry first before a lot of damage is dealt.
Like Eve, I feel like Nocturne is almost a natural taunt. People tend to be scared and focus me first, so often times I start a tanky item after I've gotten a brutalizer but before I finish the ghostblade. Otherwise my build is pretty much the same as most people have suggested. The exception is the AS runes because I don't yet have any. I do plan on getting them though.
There are certain things that seem to counter Nocturne pretty hard. One is Shen. Most of my games contained a Shen on the enemy team who would port in any time I ulted someone. Also it seems like it's better for your team to have a lot of aoe capability if you have a Nocturne. Teams tend to stack up later in the game for teamfights because of your ult. I have lost games because the opposite was in effect; my team didn't have much aoe and the other team had Katarina. We'd try to focus her first, but not before she'd destroy the whole team with lotus. Lost like 3 straight to teams with Shen and Kat after good starts.
I find that a general rule of thumb for nocturn is 2 dps items, 4 defensive items.
Hes a great initiator and I am having good luck with this. As for the DPS items I get rageblade and black cleaver usually, selling the wriggles when I need to.
Dunno if anyone else has said this already or if my runes just blow with a 21/0/9 setup (I'm running an olaf page ATM), but I have a lot more success with 1/12/17 while jungling with Nocturne. I just feel so much safer and for some reason, Meditation still makes a huge difference in my midgame/late game manapool, probably because I'm not running any mp5/lvl runes on my page though. Bonus defensive masteries always help for tanking jungle, too.
WW is pretty funny with noct too. Someone low on HP? Blood scent -> DARKNESS.
As for masteries yeah defense is safer and about the same jungling speed as offense, so I'd pick between the two based more on what you want later in the game or if you're really concerned about your offensive mastery jungling.
DARKNESS into the entire team followed by a bandage toss and curse of the sad mummy worked pretty well last night.
It's weird though. At the 20 minute mark I was like 4-1-3. At the end I was 4-5-16 with a victory.
I must add that while it has not been discussed much in this thread, and I don't think it's too practical because of his power as an assassin from the jungle, Nocturne is a pretty good laner. When we did that Nocturne Amumu combo last night, my friend wanted to jungle amumu so I went in the duel lane. Last hitting is easy, especially when combined with the passive. Also, his Q is really good for harassment and farming. I was hitting champs at their tower with its long range without suffering any consequences. Ganks were pretty easy when Amumu came around. For my laning build I started with a Doran's Shield, then picked up a ghostblade and bloodthirster. Everything else was tanky stuff (Banshees and then Sunfire, etc).
I think he can probably be a strong laner. HSGG once laned him against sion and beat the sion pretty hard thanks to imba free BV, and I had one game with Flakes as Jax duo bot and we put out so much damage at level 1 their Cho gath just instantly melted and we went on to completely destroy our lane. Course we lost the other two lanes and jungle so we lost the game, but the sheer amount of damage we put out was so good I can't imagine that Nocturne is that bad of a laner as long as he can be aggressive and not be kited around/healed against. I think people should certainly try it and experiment with it, though I expect that he'll always be a better ganker when he's jungling or roaming since his ult isn't truly global.
Running my own weird defensive masteries, 1/19/10. Allows me to wraithjack, and i've seen many ppl head straight to my wolves to try and gank, so can see that coming. Seems to be working out so far. I really wanted to put some mrgen/lvl runes as all game he just lacks mana to do anything (if ppl keep taking ur blue grr..)
My friend plays a mean Nocturne, so i'll have to jungle WW and rape things up when we're playing.
Edit: Just schooled another Nocturne jungler. Stole his wraiths, farmed my side. Got 2 ganks. Was lvl 8 when he hit 6 hahaha.
Last night had a game where the enemy noc countered me, whether on purpose or lucky it was incredibly smart.
Ashe was low in mid, so I started to ult for gank. Enemy noc also ulted and suddenly I couldnt see my target to fly over. Next thing our mid dies instead.
Oh man I was furious. Thats such a good strat though I wanted to share
Yeah I have done that against other Nocturnes. The ult can really be game changing, and I find that things tend to go badly when a teamfight is brewing, the enemy Nocturne finds a good opportunity to ult before I can, and I'm not prepared to respond.
And about the solo-lane Nocturne, I have not tried it yet but I suspect it could be alright. The nice thing is that the Q goes through everything so it isn't a difficult skill shot to hit. You can last hit multiple creeps with it if you need to stay at range, and you can also hit the enemy champ for harass. Since Nocturne does so much damage early game without the need for items you can really put pressure on the opponent. I've covered mid for a bit while jungling and had no problem.
one thing i want to contribute to this thread is how insanely strong nocturne's lvl 1 is with q, i think it def ranks up there with udyr tiger stance, he just melts ppl with autoattacks when hes on the black goo.
Does anyone else notice that you can't use q around Trundle without making him almost impossible to kill? Seriously, the health he gets from the trail is ridiculous. I q'd their team once in a fight and a few seconds later Trundle gets Mundo ult.
On March 22 2011 03:50 BlackHat wrote: Does anyone else notice that you can't use q around Trundle without making him almost impossible to kill? Seriously, the health he gets from the trail is ridiculous. I q'd their team once in a fight and a few seconds later Trundle gets Mundo ult.
It's a known bug. Evidently the puddles left behind by enemy champions when you Q them are enemies with 1200 health.
Really? I haven't had to patch the game... It was a few days ago that I ran into Trundle last so if they can do it with no patch then I'm listening, that shit was irritating
On March 22 2011 00:23 barbsq wrote: one thing i want to contribute to this thread is how insanely strong nocturne's lvl 1 is with q, i think it def ranks up there with udyr tiger stance, he just melts ppl with autoattacks when hes on the black goo.
Nothing ranks with level 1 tiger stance. Tiger burst can be procced twice because of the odd 'first stance' exception to the cd timer.
That said, he is indeed pretty solid at level 1, especially since plenty of heros have lower armor than mres at that level, which makes even the raw Q damage more noticeable.
On March 24 2011 20:25 Khul Sadukar wrote: Jungle Noc #1 useless against tanky roaming team.
1) Good at counterganking/helping allies escape 2) Good farmer/split pusher 3) Can build tanky and still deals good damage + CC. 60 AD + 80% ASpd + 12 sec spellshield + 2 sec fear is quite hefty.
I would assume that you're just not building/playing him right against those teams.
Was talking about 5man roam gank team. Heavy counter jungling. You cant take any tanks really early game without items. If you get say nunu invading your jungle often its hard.
When Nocturne ults you, does anyone else freak out like their watching a horror movie? When the screen turns black, I'm all like oh god.. oh god..., and when Nocturne leaps at me I'm like HOLY FUCKING SHIT FUCK ME FUCK ME FUCK ME!!!!!
On March 25 2011 23:38 Chairman Ray wrote: When Nocturne ults you, does anyone else freak out like their watching a horror movie? When the screen turns black, I'm all like oh god.. oh god..., and when Nocturne leaps at me I'm like HOLY FUCKING SHIT FUCK ME FUCK ME FUCK ME!!!!!
On March 25 2011 23:38 Chairman Ray wrote: When Nocturne ults you, does anyone else freak out like their watching a horror movie? When the screen turns black, I'm all like oh god.. oh god..., and when Nocturne leaps at me I'm like HOLY FUCKING SHIT FUCK ME FUCK ME FUCK ME!!!!!
I just started playing Nocturne yesterday, and went for my usual smite ghost but I don't think Noc needs ghost, he is fast, has his Q, a fear, ult, tons of mobility. I tried ignite, it was ok, but im settling for flash. You can counterjungle aggresively knowing u can escape with flash and is a great escape spell after destroying the carry in a teamfight.
On March 26 2011 04:58 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: Found out that when you're suiciding to tower and Nocturne ults, without going to you, he gets the kill.
Real. xDDD
Yeah his ult applies a debuff to you which removes your vision and such. Was able to get a kill and run into enemy jungle. Baited nocts ult doing that as he thought I'd suicide and I just recalled instead. Real. You also get assists for using it, so as long as you ult in a teamfight and you ace them you'll generally be able to rack up 5 assists. Free gold, yo.
On March 26 2011 04:58 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: Found out that when you're suiciding to tower and Nocturne ults, without going to you, he gets the kill.
Real. xDDD
Yeah his ult applies a debuff to you which removes your vision and such. Was able to get a kill and run into enemy jungle. Baited nocts ult doing that as he thought I'd suicide and I just recalled instead. Real. You also get assists for using it, so as long as you ult in a teamfight and you ace them you'll generally be able to rack up 5 assists. Free gold, yo.
TF's ulti applies a debuff to enemies which makes them visible to his allies. does it give kills from towers as well? I always thought it didn't so i was sure that the part with Noc's ult is a bug.
I've enjoyed running exhaust the most on him. I don't need any help getting to my target, but my gank partner might have some trouble staying in range.
Also I've run into three or four counter-jungling shacos this week which have taught me to spellshield when I facecheck bushes in my own jungle. Most common offending bushes are the wraith bush near mid lane, and the red bush. Counter killing a shaco once he tries to box-rock you is doable with exhaust, just so long as you block the fear and stay out of the attack range of the boxes.
Hey, thought I may add something here. I just discovered in a custom game that Nocturne's passive applies Tiamat's effect. Doing a boatload of damage is someone is anywhere near a minion wave, or clumped up (think amumu or orianna).
How's lane Noc now? I ran into a random solo Noc while I was Kennen, and even though he was 400 Elo higher and outplayed me pretty badly it felt like laning Nocturne was pretty beastly and probably would have beat me regardless.
On July 08 2011 16:10 starfries wrote: How's lane Noc now? I ran into a random solo Noc while I was Kennen, and even though he was 400 Elo higher and outplayed me pretty badly it felt like laning Nocturne was pretty beastly and probably would have beat me regardless.
Personally I dont have any problems vs Nocturne if I'm ranged, just be good at consistently shooting at him and try to dodge his Q. I think its important not to give a good Nocturne momentum in lane as he can be quite scary if he gets the first couple of hits/hits a few Q's, especially if he has a good rune set and Ignite + Ghost as SS. Just my imo ^^
On July 08 2011 08:46 GiygaS wrote: Hey, thought I may add something here. I just discovered in a custom game that Nocturne's passive applies Tiamat's effect. Doing a boatload of damage is someone is anywhere near a minion wave, or clumped up (think amumu or orianna).
Yorick in a creep wave fighting tiamat noc must lead to hilarity.
Vamp or cloth 5 pot? Which paths for each? Can I mirror the Yi route of twin -> wraiths -> wolves -> blue -> bp? For items I'm assuming the standard is ghostblade warmog? Trifroce any good? Is there a way to check the range of your ult before you cast it aside from keeping your mouse over the ult icon?
On September 21 2011 02:42 zulu_nation8 wrote: Vamp or cloth 5 pot? Which paths for each? Can I mirror the Yi route of twin -> wraiths -> wolves -> blue -> bp? For items I'm assuming the standard is ghostblade warmog? Trifroce any good? Is there a way to check the range of your ult before you cast it aside from keeping your mouse over the ult icon?
with cloth I go wolves -> blue -> their wraiths -> my wraiths -> red -> gols, with vamp I go wolves -> wraiths (smite big one) -> small gols -> back for cloth and then do a blue first full clear.
vamp scepter is more farm orriented, you basically can't gank for the first 3 minutes because you're buffless and lowish on HP, but you're not flushing 175 gold down the toilet on potions. I prefer cloth though because I feel like I can make up that 175 pretty easily with the flexibility it affords you. Noct just butchers small camps so fast that being high enough HP to counter jungle/gank is worth that 175 gold.
lane noct is hilarious and pretty effective in many matchups that lose to pushers as he can basically just 2 shot waves once he gets to dblade + wriggles or 3 dblades and level 5/7.
On September 21 2011 02:42 zulu_nation8 wrote: Vamp or cloth 5 pot? Which paths for each? Can I mirror the Yi route of twin -> wraiths -> wolves -> blue -> bp? For items I'm assuming the standard is ghostblade warmog? Trifroce any good? Is there a way to check the range of your ult before you cast it aside from keeping your mouse over the ult icon?
What Smash said. If you're ganking a lane with lots of hard cc (Taric/Leona/Sion etc.) then Vamp scepter wolves-->wraiths-->minigols--> gank might be worth it as you'll have level 3 by then, be at decent HP and have all your skills for ganking.
Honestly though Noc's ganks pre-6 are like WW's in that they kinda suck before 6, especially without red. Noc has the advantage of utility that WW doesn't so he's a little stronger with the fear/shield/speed +dmg buff pre-6.
The cloth+pots method of starting with wolves--> blue is tried and true though, and since Noc clears a jungle so quick you can even attempt a gank at their minigolems with double buff, otherwise gank as soon as you pick up that red. (Only works if you didn' steal their wraiths earlier though otherwise they'll already be done.)
Ghostblade is the only real damage item Noc needs; his self-steroid is insane. BV/Atmog's is they way to go imo. As for the ult, play Nocturne more and you'll know the distances off by heart. Until that point, no, there is no way to tell without mousing over. It's pretty aggravating.
Nocturne's ganks pre-6 is hella strong >.> He can take fear any time he wants since he doesn't lose a whole lot of jungling speed regardless of how he skills at level 2.
Even after 6 you don't have to initiate every gank with your ult. You can always hold onto it for a counter-gank is often more effective unless you are sure to score a kill.
On September 21 2011 03:43 Juicyfruit wrote: Nocturne's ganks pre-6 is hella strong >.> He can take fear any time he wants since he doesn't lose a whole lot of jungling speed regardless of how he skills at level 2.
Even after 6 you don't have to initiate every gank with your ult. You can always hold onto it for a counter-gank is often more effective unless you are sure to score a kill.
Alright I guess I should clarify...Noc's gank pre-6 (like WWs) sucks in comparison to his post-6 gank. And I definitely agree with the ult use advice....come up with more creative uses than flying in on the weakest squishy every time. Often even if you're not anywhere near a fight the darkness can save someone's life.
I disagree with your comment about level 2 gank though; since at level 2 Noc will always be fighting small creep camps regardless of route, it is definitely detrimental to his speed if you don't pick up the extra AS in W. Not a HUGE blow, but it's noticeable. I wouldn't get fear before 3 unless I was absolutely sure of an early gank (see: target-stun combos and such). Getting to 6 early on Noc is important.
On September 21 2011 04:07 WaveofShadow wrote: I disagree with your comment about level 2 gank though; since at level 2 Noc will always be fighting small creep camps regardless of route, it is definitely detrimental to his speed if you don't pick up the extra AS in W. Not a HUGE blow, but it's noticeable. I wouldn't get fear before 3 unless I was absolutely sure of an early gank (see: target-stun combos and such). Getting to 6 early on Noc is important.
IIRC, there was a particular IEM game (the one that crashed and restarted like 4 times) where Saint went Wraiths->Red to pick up red quickly for a level 2 gank. You should definitely be flexible about your level 2 skill, and not autopilot into W.
Can anyone link some new/relevant Nocturne guides .. I'd really like to get good with him, and this guide is from March...
I'd prefer to stay on TL and get advice from gosus and not just read random articles posted to moba sites... which is why I'm asking here instead of just googling
On October 01 2011 06:23 Vei wrote: Can anyone link some new/relevant Nocturne guides .. I'd really like to get good with him, and this guide is from March...
I'd prefer to stay on TL and get advice from gosus and not just read random articles posted to moba sites... which is why I'm asking here instead of just googling
Both are still reasonable, though both junglers have swapped their rune/mastery setups a bit (Saint stopped using that convoluted runepage and just uses a normal 25 armor pen + defensive runes page with 9/0/21 masteries, and TheOddOne uses the "secret" runepage with 14/0/16 masteries that he uses on literally everyone now). Also of note is that in addition to small jungle clears, you can get your team to AoE damage wolves, letting you clear wolves before blue spawns, and then get a good pull on blue. This shaves a good 10-15 seconds off a blue clear.
On October 01 2011 06:31 Vei wrote: ArPen is superior to AS it seems? I've been using mostly AS, although my yellows/blues are hugely lacking in anything useful =/ just have like MPen
ArPen gives superior damage during ganks/midgame fights while ASpd is better for jungle speed/safety. As it stands, Nocturne doesn't really have the need to rune for ASpd, given how he has a natural ASpd steroid and how Q->passive auto gets to clearing the majority of small camps' health very quickly.
At high level play, the jungler is a pseudo-support whose job isn't to clear the jungle as fast as possible over and over - it's to provide ganks, put pressure on lanes and help to ward.
On October 01 2011 07:12 dnastyx wrote: At high level play, the jungler is a pseudo-support whose job isn't to clear the jungle as fast as possible over and over - it's to provide ganks, put pressure on lanes and help to ward.
yeah, but these guides are like "open scepter then wolves->smite wraiths->golem pill"
and golems are unkillable with my runes because i don't have the armor ones or something. i'm pretty sure i'm not autoattacking incorrectly =/
That's actually a viable path, and the best one if you want to rush to level 6 as fast as possible. Small camps first, then buffs. (It works much better in lower elo.)
If you don't have armor yellows you will die in the jungle.
The vamp scepter opening has a really small margin of error. I wouldn't suggest doing it if you don't have extremely specific runes. That said, I'm probably biased because I think the vamp scepter small camps opening is stupid on virtually every jungler.
On October 01 2011 07:42 dnastyx wrote: That's actually a viable path, and the best one if you want to rush to level 6 as fast as possible. Small camps first, then buffs. (It works much better in lower elo.)
If you don't have armor yellows you will die in the jungle.
damn hahah thank you everyone for the feedback, now i know where my IP will be going...
How is Noct in the new jungle? I feel his passive and Q give him a decent enough amount of aoe damage to still clear pretty well (not as well as udyr/skarner) and his ult lets him cut a large portion of the travel time and positional set up required in ganks if he's just close by, which I feel helps much more now then in the old jungle
Just tried starting vamp no leash. You can start blue or go wolves->blue, and then you can pretty much keep doing small camps til lvl 5.5, where you go buy, then pick up red for 6, and gank.
He still has a really strong level 2 gank with Q/E. More importantly the new jungle spawn times let him go wolves -> blue -> gank lane / enemy wraiths -> wolves -> wraiths -> red -> golem -> gank lane at 4
Going to play around with this some more, may consider 21 utility instead of offense for the extra experience if my ganks are consistently successful to keep ahead of the enemy jungle in levels.
I bought noct early but fell off as he was pushed more into the jungle but now I think I want to learn jungle and have him be the champ I learn it with.
My question is what masteries to use in the new system and runes? Is this guide still relevant?
On December 04 2011 18:01 Slaughter wrote: I bought noct early but fell off as he was pushed more into the jungle but now I think I want to learn jungle and have him be the champ I learn it with.
My question is what masteries to use in the new system and runes? Is this guide still relevant?
I've been using 21/9/0 or 0/9/21. Not sure which I like better but I am currently leaning towards the offensive set-up.
Open boots x3 for a level 2 gank or vamp scepter if you don't plan on ganking at level 2
So after the jungle remake I haven't jungled with nocturne as much as I used to. I've just got a few questions.
1) Wriggles v 2Dblade openings I used to always open wriggles, but since seeing people be able to start dblade I thought it was kind of interesting. A lot of nocs sustain comes from his passive, so i was thinking more damage would be good. I've tried them both out, and I can't decide which one I like better yet.
2) What do I build when I get fed? Typical openings include wriggles, berz, and bruta. After that I'm pretty lost. I build warmogs but then I feel like I don't do any damage. Alternatively, I feel like zeal -> bt would be good just because i really like zeal but idk i don't know much about the game.
I've been following TOO's nocturne build ever since he had that week or two when he was playing nocturne a lot about a month or two ago. Wriggles/boots1 -> hog -> avarice -> boots2 -> ghostblade -> then situational. I build randuins most games if I farm it, as ult diving into the enemy carry and then activating randuins in the midst of the enemy team is pretty brutal. SV liked to go atmogs after wriggles, but I personally don't really like it. TOO's build makes nocturne a lot more relevant through the midgame and I think the ult -> randuins + ghostblade combo is really strong in the lategame.
I don't think building any bf sword items is good on nocturne because he really needs to be able to take a beating to really make use of himself as he's going to be diving right onto enemy carries that will usually be in the midst of the enemy team. Moreover, he already gets an AD steroid and a AS steroid in his Q and W. I'm a fan of ghostblade on him because it provides everything nocturne likes in a single item package so that you can put a lot of gold in defensive items. I'm not really sure what to get on nocturne after wriggles, boots, ghostblade, randuins, and fon/banshees though, although most games don't go that long.
I used to follow that guide, but I figured after the jungle changes it was gonna be a lot harder to get bigger items like randuins and warmogs.
I guess I was just hoping for some more updated information on how to jungle nocturne. It feels like no one is doing it anymore with the prominence of udyr, skarner, and rammus, but it just feels so good. I guess my only problem is what to do once I'm fed.
But isn't that why TOO's build still works? Trying to get atmogs without getting fed just doesn't work on nocturne jungle anymore. I think TOO's build is pretty relevant after the jungle changes.
Does anyone else have problems with missing your Q when you queued it up during your R-dive? It feels like it should just go right in front of you, but it hasn't always worked out that way. Am I doing something wrong, or should I be not queuing it up while im flying through the air and instead wait to land and attempt to aim it then?
I prefer to land my e on them first then shield and q at the same time. I found i tend to miss my q if I try to queue it up ahead of time, with half the time it going backwards.
On January 11 2012 12:24 koreasilver wrote: But isn't that why TOO's build still works? Trying to get atmogs without getting fed just doesn't work on nocturne jungle anymore. I think TOO's build is pretty relevant after the jungle changes.
That's true, I didn't consider that TOO also got two gp10, which is starting to get pretty standard on a few junglers. I guess I never really looked at the numbers to see how much damage I was actually doing. Thanks for the responses.
I dunno why you would want to get health pendant and philo on Nocturne though. He doesn't really get much out of it, and getting wriggles fast is pretty important, imo. If you're going to be passive to lvl 4 then get vamp, but otherwise I'd open with boots or cloth.
I don't really think nocturne needs the wriggles to clear camps fast, but it helps tremendously when you want to do dragon or counterjungle enemy's buffs.
Nocturne is still really, really strong. With Shaco and Rammus perma-banned and Skarner joining that list, Nocturne is hugely underrated right now.
-Wriggles is mandatory. You *need* lifesteal, both for jungling and teamfights, and build no other lifesteal items the entire game. The sustain, damage, quicker clears, and dragon/baron control are amazing, and the free ward is just gravy on top.
-Philo, on the other hand, is a trap. Philo-based junglers benefit greatly from Shurelia for initiates (think Skarner, Rammus, Maokai, Amumu, Jarvan, etc). Nocturne has no use for Shurelia, and the philo+passive isn't enough to keep your health up. You don't use much mana in the jungle, and also don't rely on CDR.
-Early on, HP is king. You have such a good steroid in your Q and W that building extra health will allow you to do more damage overall. (You should be taking the first few red buffs.) Your standard build will almost always be Wriggle, Boots, and an HP item (Ruby Crystal or Giant's Belt based on farm.)
-Fed Nocturne is easy to build. Warmog/Atma/Ghostblade, possibly Frozen Mallet if you prefer that route.
-When not fed, Aegis is a solid choice in most games. From the Ruby Crystal, you build HoG+Aegis or Warmog based on your farm. Many people also buy Avarice Blade here, and end up with a finished build of Wriggle, Boots, Aegis, HoG/Randuins, Ghostblade, and one other item. Most games will not last this long.
I have been stal.. following your ranked matches, and you are maining a no wriggles Nocturne with excellent results. Are you laning or jungling? Please share your ideas.
New Nocturne here, I'm only 17 so I still don't have all of my masteries, nor do I have any T3 runes. What jungling path should I be taking? The safe path that I've seen (dual golem -> wraith -> wolf -> blue, b, wolf -> wraith -> red -> dual golem) isn't doable because I have almost no health when I go to take blue. Or should I be laning instead?
On February 14 2012 12:41 ArcticVanguard wrote: New Nocturne here, I'm only 17 so I still don't have all of my masteries, nor do I have any T3 runes. What jungling path should I be taking? The safe path that I've seen (dual golem -> wraith -> wolf -> blue, b, wolf -> wraith -> red -> dual golem) isn't doable because I have almost no health when I go to take blue. Or should I be laning instead?
You need armor runes if you want to jungle, especially Nocturne. Honestly, I think you're better off just sticking to a lane and grinding those next couple levels until you can get tier three. Jungling at low levels is risky business because you force your teammate to 2v1 and you can't always trust them to do that well.
On February 14 2012 12:41 ArcticVanguard wrote: New Nocturne here, I'm only 17 so I still don't have all of my masteries, nor do I have any T3 runes. What jungling path should I be taking? The safe path that I've seen (dual golem -> wraith -> wolf -> blue, b, wolf -> wraith -> red -> dual golem) isn't doable because I have almost no health when I go to take blue. Or should I be laning instead?
It's okay not being able to do full clears at that level. When you're jungling at the point you are, as long as you start to learn the feel of knowing when lanes are gankable, warding, and learning to have control over the buffs then you're on a good track. If you have teammates that will pull blue for you, then start with blue then go down wolf -> wraith -> golems, go back, then do red. Open with cloth + 5pots. If you're on purple side and the opposing team doesn't have a jungler, you will sometimes be able to get first blood by getting your top and mid laners to pull red, get lvl 2 and get E, then gank top. But the "safest" route in the current jungle at your level and runes would be starting blue.
On January 12 2012 06:17 Mogwai wrote: I'm partial to HoG + Avarice post-wriggles on Noct myself.
One of the top Nocturnes from last season told me he almost always went Lantern -> HoG -> Ava -> Wits/evaluate near the "end" of S1, but that was before jungle changes. I imagine it's stronger now.
Yo I think wriggles pd ie last whisper is a good build noc isnt meant to be tanky I think. Hell throw in wits end. All you need after your damage items is a guardians angel replace wriggles with bloodthrister.
Nocturne has probably the strongest dive in the whole game with his ult, but he still isn't an assassin because he doesn't do his damge through burst, but rather through sustained fighting. This compounded with the fact that when you ult their carry you're going to be in the smack middle of the enemy team necessitates that you build survivability primarily. His kit allows you to build him tanky and still do relevant damage anyway. The AD from your Q and the AS from your W passive isn't negligible. Only building GA as your defensive item on a sustained fighter like Nocturne is garbage because you'll just get bursted down in two seconds, preventing you from auto-attacking their carry enough to make your dive worth it, then when you get revived you'll get bursted down again in a split second. The moment you see a Nocturne build like he's a Tryndamere you pretty much know that he's going to be useless lategame.
On February 20 2012 00:26 skrzmark wrote: Yo I think wriggles pd ie last whisper is a good build noc isnt meant to be tanky I think. Hell throw in wits end. All you need after your damage items is a guardians angel replace wriggles with bloodthrister.
Nocturne has a banshee's veil effect and a passive that gives him massive lifesteal, both of which go very well with tank items. Yes, you can build him assassin/glass cannon but being tanky is a good thing on junglers in the meta right now.
Basically if you're building him full AD you have to win the game before they start teamfighting.
clothes + 5 into wriggles --> atmas --> fh/bv/fon (depends on their lu) --> bt --> lw I think. But I jungle him and I don't know if you can solo top him unless against nasus or Irelia :D
21/0/9 and 21/9 both work well on him, and there are lot of situational item builds for him. If you've never played him I'd recommend a standard jungle page (AS+armor pen and AD+armor pen both work) and go for wriggle and tanky, usually some combination of aegis/phage(mallet)/warmog based on farm. You will be diving into the enemy team, and you get huge steroids from your Q and W, so it's usually safe to build tanky.
EDIT: You can't do the build above because you'll have no health and instantly die. The build I most commonly use is wriggle/hog/phage/atma with merc somewhere in there, but again it will change based on the game. The new hexdrinker item looks nice too. But Banshee Veil is a terrible item on him with his W, and he's not the best choice either for FH (Randuins is better).
If you get fed there's almost no reason not to build Frozen Mallet, Warmog, or Ghostblade.
If you're going to play a passive opening to just quick farm, open with vamp scepter. If the enemy has a strong counter jungler, then consider opening with cloth5. If you think you might be able to pull off a lvl 2 gank for whatever reason, then consider opening with boots3.
The most standard opening I see on most high level Nocturne players is without question, wriggles -> hog. After that it diverges. TOO used to go wriggles -> hog -> avarice which SV also started to adapt to some extent after the jungle changes, although I'm starting to see avarice less and less. It's very common to see brutalize though, and if you have the gold to buy a brutalizer instead of an avarice I would always buy the brutalizer instead. Ghostblade is one of the best items on Nocturne because he makes use of every single aspect of it completely. I would consider ghostblade as a core item on Nocturne. Everything after that is situational. Atmogs was popular on Nocturne and this was how SV used to build Nocturne, but that has fallen off completely both due to the jungle changes and the diminishing popularity of atmog in general. Atmas is good though, and all other items should be situational defensive items.
I don't build him as an initiatior which he isnt, I build him as an assassin with mr/armor so he can 1v1 anyone and still be able to jump onto ad carry/ap and not die instantly. Concerning banshee's veil, the passive is too good to be left. It should be a necessary item on every champ. But yeah ghostblade is a must have, I forgot about it. Mea culpa :D
Banshee's veil is pretty meh, especially on melee champs. Your shield gets knocked out by the most mundane things all the time because of how easy it is for the enemy team to waste it. Not to mention it's expensive as all hell. A lot of my games I just by a negatron and leave it there because I'd rather be using my gold on more useful expenses. When I do upgrade it it's because the enemy team has a lot of CC and I need to get a QSS. Even if the enemy team is mostly AP with near no CC I often choose to just buy another negatron instead...
My point is that with the build i listed (wriggle/hog/phage -> some order FM/atma/MR item, with possibly an aegis/chain vest/negatron before phage) you have MUCH more survivability, kill potential, and chasing power than some random mix of banshee/FH/FoN with no hp.
Also, brutalizer/ghostblade is definitely very good on him, but I would hold off using those until you get a feel for Nocturne's tankiness before going that style. As nocturne you need to stick to their highest threat target, and if if you can't ult in without instantly dying then you're a liability to the team.
How do people feel about Zeke's Herald on Nocturne? He makes excellent use of all of the stats, and the aura is very useful if you have 2 other AD champs on the team. I see it as being a potential 5th or 6th item.
Here's my item build:
Wriggles -> boots -> Avarice Blade -> Merc Treads/Ninja Tabi -> Wit's End -> Frozen Mallet/Warmog's (Giants Belt first) -> Youmuu's Ghostblade -> situational 6th item (possible choices are BV, QSS, Atma's, Zeke's Herald, GA, or a heavy dmg item like Bloodthirster/Last Whisper/Infinity Edge/Black Cleaver)
I've been playing a fair bit of nocturne as he's on a free and I'm really enjoying him. One thing I'm really torn between is wit's vs phage -> mallet after wriggle/boots2. I also don't get hog although I really should try it I guess. Wit's is kinda good for the damage and stuff and makes you actually quite dangerous in a fight but without additional health of phage I just feel too squishy and quite reluctant to dive their towers with ult. Might try wriggle boots hog wits and report back tonight.
@ above: not sure about zeke's because personally I hardly ever have games last past fromat's, at which point I feel the need to build even tankier to survive the opposing team's burst. Also your ghostblade is really quite late, by the time you get it you'd get much more money's worth out of atma's. I guess it is a matter of preference.
what I like to do on him is open vamp scepter and jungle with arpen reds and just be on position to ult a lane every time my ult is about to come up. getting wriggles/boots/brutalizer/mercs in that order by lvl 11 you can just dive a lane and come out with a kill every time if your laning partner isnt retarded. if i'm fed I go straight for blood thirster, if i'm not i go for phage then blood thirster. I like the immediate burst you get on his ult + q. I usually don't finish ghostblade until the lategame. and I feel the lifesteal is enough to keep me alive as a duelist since the fear lets you get a couple free hits on your target if they attack you and u just rape them if they try to run away. Essentially just dive in, get a kill and get out. If your ult isn't up I like doing flash -> W E Q / W -> flash -> E Q
I feel like it has a lot of potential, and combined with a mid like kassadin/twisted faith its just rape.
Here's a game with a kassadin mid. I did get a lot of lane farm this game, though.
On March 25 2012 22:23 greggy wrote: I've been playing a fair bit of nocturne as he's on a free and I'm really enjoying him. One thing I'm really torn between is wit's vs phage -> mallet after wriggle/boots2. I also don't get hog although I really should try it I guess. Wit's is kinda good for the damage and stuff and makes you actually quite dangerous in a fight but without additional health of phage I just feel too squishy and quite reluctant to dive their towers with ult. Might try wriggle boots hog wits and report back tonight.
@ above: not sure about zeke's because personally I hardly ever have games last past fromat's, at which point I feel the need to build even tankier to survive the opposing team's burst. Also your ghostblade is really quite late, by the time you get it you'd get much more money's worth out of atma's. I guess it is a matter of preference.
yeah Youmuu's is so good I may change it and make it earlier.
I like Avarice Blade instead of HoG, they both give gp10 but HoG delays Youmuu's while Avarice doesn't; and I consider Youmuu's core to Nocturne, unlike Randuin's.
Wit's is amazing, and has everything Nocturne needs:
-attack speed, Nocturne's primary stat -magic resist, to help him tank, plus extra MR when he's diving someone, which he does all the time -bonus damage per hit to clear jungle/minions faster
wits is good if you're vs double AP (kind of rare now) (wriggles -> wits -> phage)
phage is the best item overall (after wriggles on noc) because of the extra health and slow (allows you to initiate and catch someone with your ult) (wriggles -> phage)
go brutalizer if you're fed early on (and are able to pick up your wriggles very fast) and lane phase looks to go on forever (more ganks with that cdr) but i wouldn't upgrade to ghostblade *not worth it most of the time (wriggles -> brut -> phage)
i feel like hog is kinda wasted since phage gives you something (a slow) that is incredibly useful to nocturne ganks (in addition to the +health)
How is hog wasted? The whole point is to jump on a squishy and kill them and if you are in their whole team Randuins is awesome.
Glass cannon Nocturne sucks. Wriggles/Wits/Fratmas/some other MR I like the new item a lot, and BT or LW
Ghost blade is bleh, PD is meh. I dont even like getting Brutalizer early, if I am wicked fed I would rather get tankier before the opposing teams damage gets too high and go Warmogs instead of Mallet or something. Nocturne is NOT an assassin. He has no way out of fights, if he isnt tanky he will just get blown up in 2 seconds.
noct is my most played champ with a 75%winrate and i feel tanky is best for him his abilitys give him attack speed and a bv shield
i go 21/9/0 i open coth armor and 5 pots i then get boots and a long sword my first back my next back is wriggles for boots merc or ninja depending on the other chaamps in the game.i then go phage into warmogs then frozen mallet then a atmas then a bt.
On March 26 2012 05:24 Bladeorade wrote: Nocturne is NOT an assassin.
disagree here, noct is a textbook assasin. His Q allows for chasing, he has a fear ability, and his ultimate is made for diving.
You have to build noct like an assasin, or else you won't be taking advantage of his strengths. That of course doesn't mean glass cannon, he needs tank items to survive when he ults.
Wut. He does his damage through sustained auto attacking. He is not an assassin. If you try to build him like an assassin you will be utterly useless in the lategame. We've already gone through this already in this thread and I really don't want to repeat what's already been said.
All his skillset screams for it. Don't forget that you can ignore their melee with your ult and jump on their squishies. It's a different playstyle but totally valid imo.
His skillset screams for building survivability because he gets a lot of free AD and AS. His ult screams at you to build survivability because you're going to be jumping on a carry and instantly get targeted by the enemy team's highest dps and burst champions. There's no use to building Nocturne like an assassin when his damage isn't delivered as burst. For Nocturne to do his full damage he has to be able to stick to a target and auto attack as much as possible.
On March 26 2012 05:24 Bladeorade wrote: Nocturne is NOT an assassin.
disagree here, noct is a textbook assasin. His Q allows for chasing, he has a fear ability, and his ultimate is made for diving.
You have to build noct like an assasin, or else you won't be taking advantage of his strengths. That of course doesn't mean glass cannon, he needs tank items to survive when he ults.
On March 26 2012 09:02 koreasilver wrote: His skillset screams for building survivability because he gets a lot of free AD and AS. His ult screams at you to build survivability because you're going to be jumping on a carry and instantly get targeted by the enemy team's highest dps and burst champions. There's no use to building Nocturne like an assassin when his damage isn't delivered as burst. For Nocturne to do his full damage he has to be able to stick to a target and auto attack as much as possible.
He already gets HUGE steroids from Q and W and W proc and has sticking power with his ult and fear. Building him assassin leads to you dying before you can kill the enemy carry. If I am getting SUPER fed the only thing I will get is a BT which I would aim for later anyway. He needs to be self sustainable and able to survive. Wriggles Wits Warmogs or Fromallet with Atmas and MoM is a strong tanky build to finish up with a BT. Can also go Bruta instead of Wits but I really dislike Ghost Blade
What do you guys think about the Atmas nerf for Nocturne. I used to love building him with Atmogs, but it is a heavy nerf to that, almost 30 AD less now.
Honestly I stopped building atma for a long time now. Lategame it really doesn't provide enough defences vs AD carries. I've been picking up randuin's/FH for my armor while depending on mercs+runes+wits+maw for MR needs.
Yeah, rarely built it before nerf, probably won't build it at all after nerf. Usually end up getting a Maw in it's place since the damage + bit of MR is pretty nice and the shield helps in fights with aoe splashing around. Something like, Omen+Maw+Mallet+Wriggles+Boots+1, where 1 is like, GA/LW/FoN/Veil, etc.
can't believe i wasn't starting boots+3 on noct before, he's got the innate sustain to make it work easy and your chance of getting first blood and snowballing early goes up so much.
On April 25 2012 14:18 chalice wrote: can't believe i wasn't starting boots+3 on noct before, he's got the innate sustain to make it work easy and your chance of getting first blood and snowballing early goes up so much.
How do you manage to clear your jungle and get fb? In my experience, his level 2 ganks aren't THAT scary as he has no hard CC, and if your red buff gank fails you are too low to clear your jungle and oom. Starting boots gives you zero flexibility to gank after doing blue and red, because you just don't have the HP.
On April 25 2012 14:18 chalice wrote: can't believe i wasn't starting boots+3 on noct before, he's got the innate sustain to make it work easy and your chance of getting first blood and snowballing early goes up so much.
How do you manage to clear your jungle and get fb? In my experience, his level 2 ganks aren't THAT scary as he has no hard CC, and if your red buff gank fails you are too low to clear your jungle and oom. Starting boots gives you zero flexibility to gank after doing blue and red, because you just don't have the HP.
Thoughts?
It's alot harder now with the nerf, but usually if you can hit 4 with a pretty decent(3/4 or higher) health you can just sit in there and farm the small camps till you can b, i dont usually back till after ive done red ganked(if i havent died or arent at like 100 hp) wraiths and wolves again.
i haven't played him since the nerf, but because of the way his Q and passive works against multiple mobs a wolves > blue > wraiths > wolves > red route keeps you higher than if you do double golems.
On June 16 2012 05:15 chalice wrote: i haven't played him since the nerf, but because of the way his Q and passive works against multiple mobs a wolves > blue > wraiths > wolves > red route keeps you higher than if you do double golems.
This is the route you should be going any game barring something random and stupid happening.
Yes you can start cloth but with a good leash, you should almost 100% of the time start boots, first back you can almost always afford a vamp scepter +a couple pots and some wards,w ith vamp scepter you'll be able to sustain in the jungle for pretty much ever.
ya i havent really noticed much of a change in noc's sustain. i just dont do the golems til i back once usually. u can get some nice passive procs on the camps with 3 or 4 creeps instead of the two at golems. but for champs that dont have sustain or if u are worried about invades starting cloth is still fine. i do it routinely on fiora, shyv, and sejuani.
On June 18 2012 11:33 anmolsinghmzn2009 wrote: Screw jungling, top lane nocturne is king.
That takes away the strongest part of nocturne post-6. The fear that any time you engage offensively with your lane opponent, nocturne could suddenly appear and smash your face in across all three lanes is mostly gone. As lane nocturne, the only one that has to be scared is mid and with one ward in the river, that fear is mostly gone. You will generally get more money as a lane nocturne but if you're going to be diving carries, what's stopping you from playing a top laner like irelia who doesn't push lane uncontrollably every 10 seconds?
On June 18 2012 11:33 anmolsinghmzn2009 wrote: Screw jungling, top lane nocturne is king.
That takes away the strongest part of nocturne post-6. The fear that any time you engage offensively with your lane opponent, nocturne could suddenly appear and smash your face in across all three lanes is mostly gone. As lane nocturne, the only one that has to be scared is mid and with one ward in the river, that fear is mostly gone. You will generally get more money as a lane nocturne but if you're going to be diving carries, what's stopping you from playing a top laner like irelia who doesn't push lane uncontrollably every 10 seconds?
Wasn't meant to be a serious comment honestly. Its just that today we had a lee sin who had flash ignite so I lock in nocturne as I figured he wanted to go top. But then the guy takes smite and doesn't say a word so I had to go top. I somehow smashed their warwick and then just started roaming around killing shit.
Next game I was like wow fuck it playing noct top again and I won that too lolol.
So after some talk about executioner's calling in the WW thread and the conclusion being the obvious one of "it's bad on WW" - I got to thinking that it might be better on noct, with the following reasons behind my crazy idea:
1 - You have good base AD and AS to make use of crit (Q and W provide it) 2 - Your passive benefits rather nicely from Crit. (You get some pretty amusing near-instant clears on wraiths/wolves when you Q and then your first passive proc crits with Q-buffed AD.) 3 - Lifesteal is nice since you're probably going to be building pretty high resists anyway, and with wriggles being a lot less alluring due to nerfs, maybe the cheaper exe calling can have a place alongside a pile of armor/MR items like Randuin & FoN, and particularly crit is particularly nice alongside bruiser items like MoM / Phage. 4 - The active could be useful vs the enemy comp.
On June 19 2012 04:36 sylverfyre wrote: So after some talk about executioner's calling in the WW thread and the conclusion being the obvious one of "it's bad on WW" - I got to thinking that it might be better on noct, with the following reasons behind my crazy idea:
1 - You have good base AD and AS to make use of crit (Q and W provide it) 2 - Your passive benefits rather nicely from Crit. (You get some pretty amusing near-instant clears on wraiths/wolves when you Q and then your first passive proc crits with Q-buffed AD.) 3 - Lifesteal is nice since you're probably going to be building pretty high resists anyway, and with wriggles being a lot less alluring due to nerfs, maybe the cheaper exe calling can have a place alongside a pile of armor/MR items like Randuin & FoN, and particularly crit is particularly nice alongside bruiser items like MoM / Phage. 4 - The active could be useful vs the enemy comp.
I think substituting Exec's for Wriggle's would be interesting, but I would feel gimped whenever trying to take dragon without the chance for 400damage procs.
The active could be useful, but I would say that it's definitely situational. Perhaps versus say..Soraka, Swain, Vlad, Warwick it might be useful, but given that you'll already typically have Ignites on mid, top, and maybe bot, it's not really necessary if you plan out who to Ignite and when. I'd consider Exec's more useful for laning versus the stupid sustain champs, given the CD on the active.
junglers with high innate damage like lee and noct can always skip wriggles, but it doesnt mean you should always do it nor is it more efficient. Noct items vary game to game just like lee depending on how far youre ahead, what damage the enemy has, what your team needs, and what your longterm plan is. You can get wriggles, dblades, bruta, phage, hog, wits end, hexdrinker, straight BF, aegis, giants belt, negatron. All of those items should be considered for your build as your starting items.
On June 19 2012 05:22 TheYango wrote: I haven't been getting Wriggle's for ages now on Noct. 2xDBlade->Bruta just feels like it has a way better tempo for teamfighting at ~12-15 mins.
Me neither. But sometimes I feel like I want more lifesteal than 2 dblades provides.
Okay, I've had a lot of noc in my LoL career and i dont have the slightest idea how to use his ult properly. Can someone explain because everytime the fight starts and I dive their carry i get instakilled before i can even do anything.
On August 05 2012 14:20 LazyFailKid wrote: Okay, I've had a lot of noc in my LoL career and i dont have the slightest idea how to use his ult properly. Can someone explain because everytime the fight starts and I dive their carry i get instakilled before i can even do anything.
you probably gotta build tankier. if diving their carry gets you insta-killed every single time it's probably a problem with your build. Either that, or you're too fast on the ulti. it's a decent initiate, but usually you don't want to use it too early unless you're ahead since that can result in you gettin 5v1'd to death before your team even engages.
Is Nocturne still a good pick? His ult along with vision being more common makes him better overall, but I find that he blows up a lot more easily. Makes it a lot harder to survive when you dive in, and building more tanky makes me just do not enough damage. What are people building on him now?
IMO Nocturne is a very good pick right now. Most people pick up wriggles + berserkers greaves as core items. From there sometimes you can rush black cleaver since he uses all the stats really well but I often find you need to start getting tankier. Building items like aegis, randuins, hexdrinker, bc, phage/mallet, or ga will give you a nice balance of damage and defensive stats. A typical build for me is 0/21/9 masteries and going wriggles -> berserkers greaves -> aegis -> hexdrinker if the other team has high magic damage, randuins if high physical damage, a phage/black cleaver if tankiness isn't an issue at the moment, and a ga if you're really fed and killing you is a high priority for the other team.
On December 25 2012 14:38 Vathus wrote: IMO Nocturne is a very good pick right now. Most people pick up wriggles + berserkers greaves as core items. From there sometimes you can rush black cleaver since he uses all the stats really well but I often find you need to start getting tankier. Building items like aegis, randuins, hexdrinker, bc, phage/mallet, or ga will give you a nice balance of damage and defensive stats. A typical build for me is 0/21/9 masteries and going wriggles -> berserkers greaves -> aegis -> hexdrinker if the other team has high magic damage, randuins if high physical damage, a phage/black cleaver if tankiness isn't an issue at the moment, and a ga if you're really fed and killing you is a high priority for the other team.
Why would you run 9 util. It seems wasted because out of all the stuff there, the only thing that he wants is the buff duration, and even then only for red buff. He can clear jungle almost indefinitely without the mana/CDR from blue. I just think 9 offense is much, much stronger than 9 util. Additional AS/AD/arpen when you are pretty much the closest thing to a jungle carry is worth so much more.
I have tried building him with a tank spirit stone build though, going machete->vamp->tank stone+hydra+zerks in some order though. Gain a huge amount of tankiness, but lose dragon and a bit of buff control. Still works fine if you have damage coming from somewhere else, or if you just need to be a sponge when you ult in.
He feels a lot stronger than I remember. I think it's a combination of black cleaver being a really good item for him, the prevalence of wards from sight stone making his ult comparatively better, and he clears really well in the new jungle.
Haven't had much chance to experiment, but I go 21/9/0 masteries, flat AD marks/quints, armor seals, scaling mr glyphs. Items are mercs, wriggles, black cleaver, randuin's, frozen mallet, bulwark. Substitute a bloodthirster for the wriggles if you get that far. And maybe a maw for bulwark if you need more damage.
I play Nocturne a lot in the new jungle, he is by no means squishy. I either go 9/21/0, or 19/11/0 if I'm not gonna be the tankiest on the team.
Cleaver has helped his dps A LOT, and you can build so many different items. Nocturne LOVES health, and scales extremely well with just a BC/Wriggles. I do different builds, but in most games I end up with: Wriggles, Berserker's, BC, and three defensive items to fit enemy team. If they are heavy, heavy CC I use merc's. I don't necesarily buy them in that order, but I always start wriggles+boots1.
Nocturne duels pretty much everyone, he invades extremely well - with smitless he can do red -> blue -> Enemy red gank where most jungler will be at their red when you get there, and low.
Add to that his strong pre-6 ganks, and superstrong post-6 ganks, and map presence, and he is a beast. He also splitpushes well.
I'm running AS marks, MS quints (my standard set, could sub in AD for the quints), but the foundation's a bit old (tried AS/MS and AD/MS in the early s2 jungle, the first one allowed him to start vamp and clear till wriggles, while the 2nd one took him too low on first red). I'm not sure if I'd like to build BC. I know bruta was popular on him if kinda fed early, into ghostblade to make him into more of an assassin jungler (and AS+crit are what go best in terms of offensive stats with his big AD steroid), but I prefer stuff like phage early on, esp. as it allows to chase even better to make sure you fear your target, early game (I take mercs most of the time so I complete boots2 late-ish).
I prefer wit's as my other offensive item, and love randuin's on him because he'll dive the AD carry pretty often and his ult should place him in a good position to make sure of the active on randuin's. I tried a machete->boots->locket->randuin's build more recently (I subbed in a phage for damage at one point between locket and randuin's), and the armor from machete+locket, the HP and the locket active's shield make you really good at tanking tower, for example to dive bottom with ult.
I don't quite get why would you get randuins and phage on a champ who has 3 skills that help him to stick on a target allready? what is so good about phage. The slow on phage is not that expensive, so theres some slot efficiency to it. but mb it is suboptimal if you plan on randuins anyways.
Because I play Noc as a tanky champ that you have to deal with rather than a bruiser that dives, hopes to get a kill and run away. Randuin's is one of my favorite items because of the good combination of HP and armor it offers. It's a bit less smooth to build in s3 but it still has that combination and the passive at least helps me duelling their AD if I need to. Also the active helps the follow-up from my team since it's harder for the opponent to disengage/reposition.
I loved Nocturne when he was released and now I want to try him again. After a few games I have a question: what is the build path you currently go?
I love me some Wriggle's (do I still get this?) into Zerkers but now lack defense which means that if only one of the enemy carries is decently farmed, I'm not going to survive my ult dive in early teamfights.
On the other hand, when I'm building too tanky in the beginning (I used to go Lantern -> HoG -> Boots 2 -> Aegis + Ghostblade then high tier defensive items in S2 because his steroids were so strong), I feel so useless when I arrive at my target and can't really threaten it.
Is zerkers that good for his clearing speed/dueling power? I haven't tried it yet as I generally take defensive boots on every jungler, with the exception for mob boots on the heavy ganking ones (Mao/Naut/sometimes Amumu), but seeing how it's becoming popular I'm curious as to why offensive boots are being favored on a bruiser-type champ.
On December 28 2012 01:35 little fancy wrote: I loved Nocturne when he was released and now I want to try him again. After a few games I have a question: what is the build path you currently go?
I love me some Wriggle's (do I still get this?) into Zerkers but now lack defense which means that if only one of the enemy carries is decently farmed, I'm not going to survive my ult dive in early teamfights.
On the other hand, when I'm building too tanky in the beginning (I used to go Lantern -> HoG -> Boots 2 -> Aegis + Ghostblade then high tier defensive items in S2 because his steroids were so strong), I feel so useless when I arrive at my target and can't really threaten it.
Wriggles is majorly important. Instead of HoG you can go sightstone which is basically the same, and upgrade it later into Ruby Sightstone. Helps your team out a lot, and gives a lot of free wards on top of wriggles. Aegis is still good, and ghostblade is okay, though I prefer cleaver. Nocturne has a LOT of different builds, you can be bruiser, you can be asssassin, you can be tank. Build according to your and their team, but always start with machete, and always build wriggles. You can either rush wriggles, or do the razers -> boots -> wriggles.
On December 28 2012 01:35 little fancy wrote: I loved Nocturne when he was released and now I want to try him again. After a few games I have a question: what is the build path you currently go?
I love me some Wriggle's (do I still get this?) into Zerkers but now lack defense which means that if only one of the enemy carries is decently farmed, I'm not going to survive my ult dive in early teamfights.
On the other hand, when I'm building too tanky in the beginning (I used to go Lantern -> HoG -> Boots 2 -> Aegis + Ghostblade then high tier defensive items in S2 because his steroids were so strong), I feel so useless when I arrive at my target and can't really threaten it.
Wriggles is majorly important. Instead of HoG you can go sightstone which is basically the same, and upgrade it later into Ruby Sightstone. Helps your team out a lot, and gives a lot of free wards on top of wriggles. Aegis is still good, and ghostblade is okay, though I prefer cleaver. Nocturne has a LOT of different builds, you can be bruiser, you can be asssassin, you can be tank. Build according to your and their team, but always start with machete, and always build wriggles. You can either rush wriggles, or do the razers -> boots -> wriggles.
And that is what's so challenging when playing Noc. He's pretty flexible but you get punished hard if you decide to build 'wrong' in a single game (I had some Malphite top on my team recently, thinking he was going to be the main tank. Unfortunately, we didn't really communicate and he went AP so I was the only damage soak but build too squishy. However, I don't think full tank Nocturne is that useful).
On December 28 2012 02:21 Alaric wrote: Is zerkers that good for his clearing speed/dueling power? I haven't tried it yet as I generally take defensive boots on every jungler, with the exception for mob boots on the heavy ganking ones (Mao/Naut/sometimes Amumu), but seeing how it's becoming popular I'm curious as to why offensive boots are being favored on a bruiser-type champ.
I'm going Mercs against really CC heavy teams only. I can't really explain why I like zerkers more, it's just some kind of smoother feeling. It obviously increases Noc's jungle speed, but more important is the fact that it increases his DPS dealt to the carry you ult onto and that for a very cheap price.
In general, I don't really like any other attack speed items on Noc (I prefer tanky stuff and pure AD / Pen over aspd, not even Wit's End I like, but that's probably personal preference) but feel like one is necessary so I go Zerkers whenever possible. As I said, imo Noc is not really effective as a pure tank (although I have seen that several times pretty successfully done -> Lantern, Mercs, Aegis, Randuin, Mallet, Maw) which is why I like Wriggle's + Zerkers + 3x defensive items + another damage item (Ghostblade is still boss on him and gives aspd, too).
After BC I generally don't feel mallet is necessary for damage, and you get more defense from other sources (for less gold even) - As a jungler you won't reach that state of build anytime early, and might aswell focus on cheaper, more defensively oriented items. BC is better imo simple cause you'll never build LW, and if not doing an onhit build, you won't gain much against tanky targets from Ghost Blade. You already have a semi-ghostblade from your q, don't see the reason to build one on top.
On December 31 2012 01:05 justiceknight wrote: feeling like going Noc mid tomorrow morning,after seeing Blaze and Frost played it feels so OP to me lol.Any1 tried out yet?
After BC I generally don't feel mallet is necessary for damage, and you get more defense from other sources (for less gold even) - As a jungler you won't reach that state of build anytime early, and might aswell focus on cheaper, more defensively oriented items. BC is better imo simple cause you'll never build LW, and if not doing an onhit build, you won't gain much against tanky targets from Ghost Blade. You already have a semi-ghostblade from your q, don't see the reason to build one on top.
TBH I ghostblade serves noct a lot better than BC. After using his ult and Q, he's an autoattack carry with large steroids. In this regard, against most targets ghostblade will bring noticeably more damage, and with ghostblade he has insane sticking power(important because he's purely autoattacking for a while).
Mathed it out, against 100 armor targets with level 18 noct(flat AD red/quint), wriggles+zerks +BC/ghostblade vs 100 armor targets, with ghostblade active vs fully stacked BC. 256 vs 226 dps. On top of that ghostblade let's you stick to targets better, and gives more passive procs. It's not until a bit above 300 armor that fully stacked BC beats ghostblade active.
After BC I generally don't feel mallet is necessary for damage, and you get more defense from other sources (for less gold even) - As a jungler you won't reach that state of build anytime early, and might aswell focus on cheaper, more defensively oriented items. BC is better imo simple cause you'll never build LW, and if not doing an onhit build, you won't gain much against tanky targets from Ghost Blade. You already have a semi-ghostblade from your q, don't see the reason to build one on top.
TBH I ghostblade serves noct a lot better than BC. After using his ult and Q, he's an autoattack carry with large steroids. In this regard, against most targets ghostblade will bring noticeably more damage, and with ghostblade he has insane sticking power(important because he's purely autoattacking for a while).
Mathed it out, against 100 armor targets with level 18 noct(flat AD red/quint), wriggles+zerks +BC/ghostblade vs 100 armor targets, with ghostblade active vs fully stacked BC. 256 vs 226 dps. On top of that ghostblade let's you stick to targets better, and gives more passive procs. It's not until a bit above 300 armor that fully stacked BC beats ghostblade active.
I get your point. But you need to damage while the Ghostblade is active to get the benefit, or what? Also, do you really run flat ad reds? :o - With wriggles and his passive, I tend to prefer some attack speed.
After BC I generally don't feel mallet is necessary for damage, and you get more defense from other sources (for less gold even) - As a jungler you won't reach that state of build anytime early, and might aswell focus on cheaper, more defensively oriented items. BC is better imo simple cause you'll never build LW, and if not doing an onhit build, you won't gain much against tanky targets from Ghost Blade. You already have a semi-ghostblade from your q, don't see the reason to build one on top.
TBH I ghostblade serves noct a lot better than BC. After using his ult and Q, he's an autoattack carry with large steroids. In this regard, against most targets ghostblade will bring noticeably more damage, and with ghostblade he has insane sticking power(important because he's purely autoattacking for a while).
Mathed it out, against 100 armor targets with level 18 noct(flat AD red/quint), wriggles+zerks +BC/ghostblade vs 100 armor targets, with ghostblade active vs fully stacked BC. 256 vs 226 dps. On top of that ghostblade let's you stick to targets better, and gives more passive procs. It's not until a bit above 300 armor that fully stacked BC beats ghostblade active.
I get your point. But you need to damage while the Ghostblade is active to get the benefit, or what? Also, do you really run flat ad reds? :o - With wriggles and his passive, I tend to prefer some attack speed.
I personally run 6 arpen and 3 AS reds. Made a spreadsheet a long time ago just to see what would clear jungle the fastest, bearing in mind in terms of scaling vs champs arpen>AS~=AD for reds.
You do need to do damage during the duration of ghostblade, but for those 6 seconds you are stronger than a BC noct and because a dead target does zero DPS, I find it to be superior if you pick fights well.
Don't like wriggles - prefer some other lifesteal AD item, with a vanilla machete - spirit stone->ancient golem lets you build zerker greaves, which should be plenty of AS (esp. combined with successfully absorbing a spell with W, but even is fine just with the passive W)
Noct is also one of few non-carries that benefit reasonably from crit, even without many damage items - due to the AD & AS steroids on his Q and W.
Anyone tried locket yet on him? Seems like one of the better choices on tank+team-benefit items now, and CDR on champions with a short-CD CC ability never hurts. machete -> Brutalizer + Kindlegem + Vamp + Zerker greaves early (a bit squishy) -> Ghostblade + Locket
Zekes may also turn out to be a good item to build on junglers now - though it feels a bit expensive, lifesteal is harder to come by now in general, and with teams running more AD in general, it seems like it would be worth it.
After BC I generally don't feel mallet is necessary for damage, and you get more defense from other sources (for less gold even) - As a jungler you won't reach that state of build anytime early, and might aswell focus on cheaper, more defensively oriented items. BC is better imo simple cause you'll never build LW, and if not doing an onhit build, you won't gain much against tanky targets from Ghost Blade. You already have a semi-ghostblade from your q, don't see the reason to build one on top.
TBH I ghostblade serves noct a lot better than BC. After using his ult and Q, he's an autoattack carry with large steroids. In this regard, against most targets ghostblade will bring noticeably more damage, and with ghostblade he has insane sticking power(important because he's purely autoattacking for a while).
Mathed it out, against 100 armor targets with level 18 noct(flat AD red/quint), wriggles+zerks +BC/ghostblade vs 100 armor targets, with ghostblade active vs fully stacked BC. 256 vs 226 dps. On top of that ghostblade let's you stick to targets better, and gives more passive procs. It's not until a bit above 300 armor that fully stacked BC beats ghostblade active.
I get your point. But you need to damage while the Ghostblade is active to get the benefit, or what? Also, do you really run flat ad reds? :o - With wriggles and his passive, I tend to prefer some attack speed.
I personally run 6 arpen and 3 AS reds. Made a spreadsheet a long time ago just to see what would clear jungle the fastest, bearing in mind in terms of scaling vs champs arpen>AS~=AD for reds.
You do need to do damage during the duration of ghostblade, but for those 6 seconds you are stronger than a BC noct and because a dead target does zero DPS, I find it to be superior if you pick fights well.
Okay, so in general it comes to what the opposing team's comp is like. You run mostly the same runes I do. BC wins out over longer fights.
After BC I generally don't feel mallet is necessary for damage, and you get more defense from other sources (for less gold even) - As a jungler you won't reach that state of build anytime early, and might aswell focus on cheaper, more defensively oriented items. BC is better imo simple cause you'll never build LW, and if not doing an onhit build, you won't gain much against tanky targets from Ghost Blade. You already have a semi-ghostblade from your q, don't see the reason to build one on top.
TBH I ghostblade serves noct a lot better than BC. After using his ult and Q, he's an autoattack carry with large steroids. In this regard, against most targets ghostblade will bring noticeably more damage, and with ghostblade he has insane sticking power(important because he's purely autoattacking for a while).
Mathed it out, against 100 armor targets with level 18 noct(flat AD red/quint), wriggles+zerks +BC/ghostblade vs 100 armor targets, with ghostblade active vs fully stacked BC. 256 vs 226 dps. On top of that ghostblade let's you stick to targets better, and gives more passive procs. It's not until a bit above 300 armor that fully stacked BC beats ghostblade active.
I get your point. But you need to damage while the Ghostblade is active to get the benefit, or what? Also, do you really run flat ad reds? :o - With wriggles and his passive, I tend to prefer some attack speed.
I personally run 6 arpen and 3 AS reds. Made a spreadsheet a long time ago just to see what would clear jungle the fastest, bearing in mind in terms of scaling vs champs arpen>AS~=AD for reds.
You do need to do damage during the duration of ghostblade, but for those 6 seconds you are stronger than a BC noct and because a dead target does zero DPS, I find it to be superior if you pick fights well.
Hmmm it doesn't seem nearly that settled to me. The damage seems really close between them, right? I'll take your word that GB edges it overall, but if its that close than I think cleaver is actually better even if you do slightly less damage. This is because it shreds armor rather than penetrates it. So while you will do slightly less, the rest of your team will benefit from it as well. If the damage differential is as miniscule as you say, than this seems like the better choice to me.
On January 02 2013 18:10 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote: Just put on your Azubu face and run Nocturne mid, with lane farm he's insane and duo ganking with jungler seems stupid.
I forgot, I need to try it. Instalocked nocturne mid in a blind, we shall see how this goes.
Laning against evelynn with 3 kills before I get to lane @_@.
Okay games over, MF legendary at 10m, my lane went decently all things considered.
I'm afk now, not gonna deal with 12kills in as many minutes MF.
Pretty sure the cait was an elo job, had plat border, died 16 times in a game that long....How?
Things I learned before I afk'd.
- You can push ridiculously fast for very little mana - Noct is not particularly good against spammy champs because that kills spellshields effectiveness(eve) - Didn't even get to the roam phase of the game in one piece. - You probably need to buy a dorans or a ruby crystal early to survive ganks(although this was a very fed lee so idk) - Never play blind pick again, it's hilarious what people blame you for when bot lane had 13 deaths at 10m. - You probably want to ward at least one side. You push so much naturally that you need to have an avenue of escape.
I will probably keep it as a counterpick. You'd probably want to open depending on their jungler, because whoever's in lane shouldn't really pose a threat.
After BC I generally don't feel mallet is necessary for damage, and you get more defense from other sources (for less gold even) - As a jungler you won't reach that state of build anytime early, and might aswell focus on cheaper, more defensively oriented items. BC is better imo simple cause you'll never build LW, and if not doing an onhit build, you won't gain much against tanky targets from Ghost Blade. You already have a semi-ghostblade from your q, don't see the reason to build one on top.
TBH I ghostblade serves noct a lot better than BC. After using his ult and Q, he's an autoattack carry with large steroids. In this regard, against most targets ghostblade will bring noticeably more damage, and with ghostblade he has insane sticking power(important because he's purely autoattacking for a while).
Mathed it out, against 100 armor targets with level 18 noct(flat AD red/quint), wriggles+zerks +BC/ghostblade vs 100 armor targets, with ghostblade active vs fully stacked BC. 256 vs 226 dps. On top of that ghostblade let's you stick to targets better, and gives more passive procs. It's not until a bit above 300 armor that fully stacked BC beats ghostblade active.
I get your point. But you need to damage while the Ghostblade is active to get the benefit, or what? Also, do you really run flat ad reds? :o - With wriggles and his passive, I tend to prefer some attack speed.
I personally run 6 arpen and 3 AS reds. Made a spreadsheet a long time ago just to see what would clear jungle the fastest, bearing in mind in terms of scaling vs champs arpen>AS~=AD for reds.
You do need to do damage during the duration of ghostblade, but for those 6 seconds you are stronger than a BC noct and because a dead target does zero DPS, I find it to be superior if you pick fights well.
Have been wanting to learn Nocturne for a while now, what do you think of a setup like
6 ArPen/3 ASpd Reds Armour Yellows MR/Lvl Blues AD/Vamp(?) Quints
what about razer ss instead of going for that wriggles? Yango suggested it a while ago and it makes a lot more sense now that wriggles got another heavy nerfbat. Otherwise a mail rush inbetween getting the bruta and the agies? you don't need the aura until you're out of the lane phase so its okay to get it a bit later.
I want to make an sotd bortk FM full tank nocturne any suggestions?
On January 04 2013 15:00 Sermokala wrote: what about razer ss instead of going for that wriggles? Yango suggested it a while ago and it makes a lot more sense now that wriggles got another heavy nerfbat. Otherwise a mail rush inbetween getting the bruta and the agies? you don't need the aura until you're out of the lane phase so its okay to get it a bit later.
I want to make an sotd bortk FM full tank nocturne any suggestions?
Ehh, wriggles is still pretty darn cost effective an upgrade 5 Armour/AD and 200 dmg/proc for 100G, I suppose I could finish the Ghostblade but alot of games I've been playing have had alot of 3v3 skirmishes early and i'd guess that i'd rather the tank/aura.
I've decided to move away from sotd and just go full tank +FM+Bortk
Something like
machete cutlass zerkers mail bortk phage omen FM sell zerkers get tabi GA SV
bortk comes when diveing onto the enemy carry isn't feasible anymore and you have to sit and peel for a few seconds until ult jumping onto the enemy adc becomes more sucessful. .
botrk is pretty good if its your only damage item. and ya you dont always have to dive the enemy carry. nocturnes peel is not bad and the ult is a cc to the entire enemy team.
On January 02 2013 18:10 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote: Just put on your Azubu face and run Nocturne mid, with lane farm he's insane and duo ganking with jungler seems stupid.
I forgot, I need to try it. Instalocked nocturne mid in a blind, we shall see how this goes.
Laning against evelynn with 3 kills before I get to lane @_@.
Okay games over, MF legendary at 10m, my lane went decently all things considered.
I'm afk now, not gonna deal with 12kills in as many minutes MF.
Pretty sure the cait was an elo job, had plat border, died 16 times in a game that long....How?
Things I learned before I afk'd.
- You can push ridiculously fast for very little mana - Noct is not particularly good against spammy champs because that kills spellshields effectiveness(eve) - Didn't even get to the roam phase of the game in one piece. - You probably need to buy a dorans or a ruby crystal early to survive ganks(although this was a very fed lee so idk) - Never play blind pick again, it's hilarious what people blame you for when bot lane had 13 deaths at 10m. - You probably want to ward at least one side. You push so much naturally that you need to have an avenue of escape.
I will probably keep it as a counterpick. You'd probably want to open depending on their jungler, because whoever's in lane shouldn't really pose a threat.
I've been trying out 2 regen beads +3 pots into an eventual hydra and cloth5 running a 9/21/0 into a fast warden's mail instead of going or machete5, simply because -wriggles sucks now for it's price -machete is literally useless in duels and ganks -the other machete items are half useless until you get the upgraded 2400 form, and most of them don't offer that great of a boost for the price -hydra proc and active stacks with nocturne's passive -boots3 just doesn't give the sustain anymore.
the con is that the hydra and randuins are definitely a lot more expensive than a low-tier jungling item, but nocturne's speed in the jungle is so safe and crazy fast anyways that making it faster is not -that- useful.
The cloth route works similar to the old jungle, but it's just a little bit more painful. Can also go back to wriggles build if needed. I've found that rushing warden's really screws over bot and top lane a lot in ganks when they try to fight back...if they do fight back.
The double beads route is basically the old regrowth pendent +pot but for non-tanks. Once you get a vamp scepter, nocturne basically loses no health with the beads if you smite the golem and lizard. After here, you can basically do anything you want; I find that rushing hydra works well sometimes, but rushing a belt or phage as the first core item after vamp scept is better. The idea is that since anything > tier1.5 machete items, it's better to get something that increases a different attribute rather than trying to make a natural jungler a better jungler.
On January 14 2013 09:43 imBLIND wrote: I've been trying out 2 regen beads +3 pots into an eventual hydra and cloth5 running a 9/21/0 into a fast warden's mail instead of going or machete5, simply because -wriggles sucks now for it's price -machete is literally useless in duels and ganks -the other machete items are half useless until you get the upgraded 2400 form, and most of them don't offer that great of a boost for the price -hydra proc and active stacks with nocturne's passive -boots3 just doesn't give the sustain anymore.
the con is that the hydra and randuins are definitely a lot more expensive than a low-tier jungling item, but nocturne's speed in the jungle is so safe and crazy fast anyways that making it faster is not -that- useful.
The cloth route works similar to the old jungle, but it's just a little bit more painful. Can also go back to wriggles build if needed. I've found that rushing warden's really screws over bot and top lane a lot in ganks when they try to fight back...if they do fight back.
The double beads route is basically the old regrowth pendent +pot but for non-tanks. Once you get a vamp scepter, nocturne basically loses no health with the beads if you smite the golem and lizard. After here, you can basically do anything you want; I find that rushing hydra works well sometimes, but rushing a belt or phage as the first core item after vamp scept is better. The idea is that since anything > tier1.5 machete items, it's better to get something that increases a different attribute rather than trying to make a natural jungler a better jungler.
Thoughts?
Don't see why you would rush hydra ever since Duskbringer+auto instaclears waves post level 9 and you already clear fast enough. I like razor for armor and dragon/buffs clear speed though. Brutalizer seems pretty nice after razor then situational things.
I like razer but never wriggles. Sit on razor, boots 1 and build from there depending on how the game is working.
I find randiuns, locket, aegis, warmogs, bruta to all be very strong items on nocturne (most junglers). Just depends on how the enemy team looks/who's doing well in lane or what my team needs.
What's your health like going cloth pots after wraiths red wolves wraiths? Like do you have enough for a gank bot or do you do it right after wraith red?
I don't know about hyra rushs it just seems like it would take way to long to kick in that you waste your really nice ganking potential. You ever consider going cutlass rushing into parts omen sv ga mallet?
I don't like staying on razor because it just offers armor and monster killing passives, in which case, randuins is way more useful in fights. And the point isn't to clear the jungle faster, it's to keep the jungle health (obviously it's a little slower, but theres no noticable difference in the first clear anyways) and to improve my ganking ability if it does turn a little hairy.
My health after going clothpots going wolves blue wraiths wolves red is basically the same as going 2beads+3 pots, the former using 3 pots the latter using 2. Plus usually i have to wait a bit for ppl to get out of position anways, so the beads heal me even more. Cloth5 will never run out of health in the first clear, but it does have problems for me in the 2nd when i start golems. Beads fares similarly.
The ganking potential is what i'm experimenting with; with any machete start, you're going to get items that are basically useless for ganks. I normally like to maximize my time in the jungle while above 60% health in order to be useful to my lanes, so I tried the beads approach and I was basically at 50% until the next blue buff, which is a pretty long time for me. I can also skip boots in favor of vamp scepter because of his q. Situational though. Once he gets the vamp scept+2regen beads, you're free to do whatever you want. Finish hydra later, build randuins first. Passive game? Get avarice blade for more money. People dying left and right? Phage. It's very flexible after that, and the only reason I'm not doing better with it is because I'm still stuck in ELO hell and I have at least 1 heavy feeder in every game.
Since noc clears so fast anyways, I'm trying to find something other than machete builds that works with him which would improve my ganking potential without sacrificing all of my jungling health.
I do have to say that noc becomes a glass cannon if I decide to rush hydra or some atk item first. The path taht works best for me, provided I get at least a kill or 2 assists, is 2beads+3pots > vamp scept> boots+cloth armor(s)>wardens mail>belt>randuins > whatever. Snowballing could change it to rushing hydra first.
On January 14 2013 10:43 imBLIND wrote:I don't like staying on razor because it just offers armor and monster killing passives, in which case, randuins is way more useful in fights. And the point isn't to clear the jungle faster, it's to keep the jungle health (obviously it's a little slower, but theres no noticable difference in the first clear anyways) and to improve my ganking ability if it does turn a little hairy.
Huh? Razor is 700 gold, only 400 on top of the machette. Omen is 3100. It's like you're saying that you'd rather have a trinity force than a brutalizer, the two things aren't comparable because their prices are so drastically different.
On January 14 2013 10:43 imBLIND wrote:My health after going clothpots going wolves blue wraiths wolves red is basically the same as going 2beads+3 pots, the former using 3 pots the latter using 2. Plus usually i have to wait a bit for ppl to get out of position anways, so the beads heal me even more. Cloth5 will never run out of health in the first clear, but it does have problems for me in the 2nd when i start golems. Beads fares similarly.
Why are people resisting machette so much? The clear time with machette is much better than either of these starts and both madred's and spirit stone are incredibly efficient and drastically increase clear times. I can understand resisting wriggle's and larger spirit stone upgrades, but being stubborn about machette -> first upgrade is only hurting you in the new jungle.
On January 14 2013 10:43 imBLIND wrote:The ganking potential is what i'm experimenting with; with any machete start, you're going to get items that are basically useless for ganks. I normally like to maximize my time in the jungle while above 60% health in order to be useful to my lanes, so I tried the beads approach and I was basically at 50% until the next blue buff, which is a pretty long time for me. I can also skip boots in favor of vamp scepter because of his q. Situational though. Once he gets the vamp scept+2regen beads, you're free to do whatever you want. Finish hydra later, build randuins first. Passive game? Get avarice blade for more money. People dying left and right? Phage. It's very flexible after that, and the only reason I'm not doing better with it is because I'm still stuck in ELO hell and I have at least 1 heavy feeder in every game.
that's a bad way to look at it. your clear speed is tied to your level and item progressions, both of which increase your gank potential. not to mention your experimental starts are with hp/5 and armor, which are both borderline useless ganking stats too (also not to mention that razor does give you hyper efficient armor for it's upgrade cost over machette, 400 gold for 25 armor is actually even higher efficiency than chain vest). again, if you want to play with not going to wriggle's, that's a reasonable goal, but machette -> razor is pretty much non-negotiable on noct right now.
On January 14 2013 10:43 imBLIND wrote:Since noc clears so fast anyways, I'm trying to find something other than machete builds that works with him which would improve my ganking potential without sacrificing all of my jungling health.
I do have to say that noc becomes a glass cannon if I decide to rush hydra or some atk item first. The path taht works best for me, provided I get at least a kill or 2 assists, is 2beads+3pots > vamp scept> boots+cloth armor(s)>wardens mail>belt>randuins > whatever. Snowballing could change it to rushing hydra first.
here's really the crux of why I'm baffled at your build. you post this progression and you're looking at 2 rejuv beads, followed by vamp scepter, boots, and cloth. you're not even using the early rejuv beads for anything and you're building all the components for wriggle's except the machette, which you could put in place of the 2 beads and end up with a wriggle's. I mean, you're not even using the rejuv beads on your next big ticket item either, they're just dead end items eating up 2 slots in your inventory along with another 2 slots on vamp scepter + cloth, when you could be condensing all that power into one slot for the same gold and more stats.
If you're worried about being squishy you can do the warmogs rush that the koreans and chinese have been doing but you should definitely still get at least madred's first.
I mean if you just do a simple +/- analysis on health regen vs a madred's it's very simple to see why madred's is better.
On January 14 2013 18:28 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: If you're worried about being squishy you can do the warmogs rush that the koreans and chinese have been doing but you should definitely still get at least madred's first.
I mean if you just do a simple +/- analysis on health regen vs a madred's it's very simple to see why madred's is better.
I've tried golem stone builds as well for the building pretty much pure tank option. You actually still clear at a respectable speed because you oneshot all the small creeps with Q+passive, and single target with ~150-200 per auto is very tolerable. The one advantage is that with the small amount of mana regen that the golem stone provides, you'll have a full mana bar jungling the whole time(normally it decreases pretty slowly while jungling). Probably need a damage item somewhere (brut/wits both good) to not become worthless past 15-20min.
But yeah, machete upgrades are not really optional, and neither are machete openings.
On January 14 2013 10:43 imBLIND wrote:I don't like staying on razor because it just offers armor and monster killing passives, in which case, randuins is way more useful in fights. And the point isn't to clear the jungle faster, it's to keep the jungle health (obviously it's a little slower, but theres no noticable difference in the first clear anyways) and to improve my ganking ability if it does turn a little hairy.
Huh? Razor is 700 gold, only 400 on top of the machette. Omen is 3100. It's like you're saying that you'd rather have a trinity force than a brutalizer, the two things aren't comparable because their prices are so drastically different.
Sorry, i meant to say warden's mail, the part that builds into randuin. It's only 400 gold more than a razor now, and if I want armor, 300+300 for 2 cloth armors totaling 30 armor > 25 armor at 700. The end item is more useful, and razor only builds into wriggles. I know i'm a little strapped for item slots, but it's not that big of a deal as long as I combine them in time.
On January 14 2013 10:43 imBLIND wrote:My health after going clothpots going wolves blue wraiths wolves red is basically the same as going 2beads+3 pots, the former using 3 pots the latter using 2. Plus usually i have to wait a bit for ppl to get out of position anways, so the beads heal me even more. Cloth5 will never run out of health in the first clear, but it does have problems for me in the 2nd when i start golems. Beads fares similarly.
Why are people resisting machette so much? The clear time with machette is much better than either of these starts and both madred's and spirit stone are incredibly efficient and drastically increase clear times. I can understand resisting wriggle's and larger spirit stone upgrades, but being stubborn about machette -> first upgrade is only hurting you in the new jungle.
I know the machette is faster and efficient. The only thing I'm finding right now is that my junglers that start with machete generally tend to end up getting torn apart in the early teamfights where I have about ~1000 gold locked up into not very useful items that only kill creeps. The faster speed for the +200 gold? I don't know what I can do with that. I understand that this is all theorycrafting, but I'm just trying to find something that works about as well as the machete5 start.
On January 14 2013 10:43 imBLIND wrote:The ganking potential is what i'm experimenting with; with any machete start, you're going to get items that are basically useless for ganks. I normally like to maximize my time in the jungle while above 60% health in order to be useful to my lanes, so I tried the beads approach and I was basically at 50% until the next blue buff, which is a pretty long time for me. I can also skip boots in favor of vamp scepter because of his q. Situational though. Once he gets the vamp scept+2regen beads, you're free to do whatever you want. Finish hydra later, build randuins first. Passive game? Get avarice blade for more money. People dying left and right? Phage. It's very flexible after that, and the only reason I'm not doing better with it is because I'm still stuck in ELO hell and I have at least 1 heavy feeder in every game.
that's a bad way to look at it. your clear speed is tied to your level and item progressions, both of which increase your gank potential. not to mention your experimental starts are with hp/5 and armor, which are both borderline useless ganking stats too (also not to mention that razor does give you hyper efficient armor for it's upgrade cost over machette, 400 gold for 25 armor is actually even higher efficiency than chain vest). again, if you want to play with not going to wriggle's, that's a reasonable goal, but machette -> razor is pretty much non-negotiable on noct right now.
hp/5 and armor are still more useful than creep killing items. I can win most exchanges with other junglers 1v1 until the mid comes because I at least have a stat that helps deal with other champions. The problem I'm facing is that I have to delay boots in order to keep up in case if there is a 2nd engagement, which I don't really mind, but it's annoying if I happen to miss my q.
On January 14 2013 10:43 imBLIND wrote:Since noc clears so fast anyways, I'm trying to find something other than machete builds that works with him which would improve my ganking potential without sacrificing all of my jungling health.
I do have to say that noc becomes a glass cannon if I decide to rush hydra or some atk item first. The path taht works best for me, provided I get at least a kill or 2 assists, is 2beads+3pots > vamp scept> boots+cloth armor(s)>wardens mail>belt>randuins > whatever. Snowballing could change it to rushing hydra first.
here's really the crux of why I'm baffled at your build. you post this progression and you're looking at 2 rejuv beads, followed by vamp scepter, boots, and cloth. you're not even using the early rejuv beads for anything and you're building all the components for wriggle's except the machette, which you could put in place of the 2 beads and end up with a wriggle's. I mean, you're not even using the rejuv beads on your next big ticket item either, they're just dead end items eating up 2 slots in your inventory along with another 2 slots on vamp scepter + cloth, when you could be condensing all that power into one slot for the same gold and more stats.
It's experimental. It's prone to change. I'm finding that 1 bead is not noticable enough to not get the machete, so those variations are out of the question. Starting water crystal is slower and offers no advantages either. The only other opener I haven't tried yet is sword+2pots, which seems like it would lower my jungling health way too low to be of any use. Then the other one I considered was a quick recall when I get 600 gold after boots3 for 2 cloth armors, but I found that to be slower than a machete opening. 2beads3pots is the only one I've found that can remotely compete against machete5, other than the old cloth5 opening. I know that it's slower, but I don't like how machete>razor progresses. It's 700 gold to put aside for jungling speed, which is the stat I want to replace. The problem im trying to overcome is that you need more gold before you come back before you can afford to trump the +25 armor the razors give you for 400 gold after the machete start. It's called experimenting for a reason; giving up sometihng that works in order to find something hopefully better
On January 14 2013 18:28 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: If you're worried about being squishy you can do the warmogs rush that the koreans and chinese have been doing but you should definitely still get at least madred's first.
I mean if you just do a simple +/- analysis on health regen vs a madred's it's very simple to see why madred's is better.
I've tried golem stone builds as well for the building pretty much pure tank option. You actually still clear at a respectable speed because you oneshot all the small creeps with Q+passive, and single target with ~150-200 per auto is very tolerable. The one advantage is that with the small amount of mana regen that the golem stone provides, you'll have a full mana bar jungling the whole time(normally it decreases pretty slowly while jungling). Probably need a damage item somewhere (brut/wits both good) to not become worthless past 15-20min.
But yeah, machete upgrades are not really optional, and neither are machete openings.
Going 2 beads is about as useful as a machete in early fights anyways. Considering Machete is 300g and double Bead is 360, if you get in an early fight, a health potion will probably outclass double bead anyways.
On January 14 2013 18:28 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: If you're worried about being squishy you can do the warmogs rush that the koreans and chinese have been doing but you should definitely still get at least madred's first.
I mean if you just do a simple +/- analysis on health regen vs a madred's it's very simple to see why madred's is better.
I've tried golem stone builds as well for the building pretty much pure tank option. You actually still clear at a respectable speed because you oneshot all the small creeps with Q+passive, and single target with ~150-200 per auto is very tolerable. The one advantage is that with the small amount of mana regen that the golem stone provides, you'll have a full mana bar jungling the whole time(normally it decreases pretty slowly while jungling). Probably need a damage item somewhere (brut/wits both good) to not become worthless past 15-20min.
But yeah, machete upgrades are not really optional, and neither are machete openings.
What are you opening if you're not doing machete?
I thought the way I worded it was clear, but apparently not. machete is mandatory.
So with the buff to Spirit of the Lizard Elder, it provides the same AD and CDR as Black Cleaver for 600 less total gold, while providing 2 passives and HP/Mana regen instead of 10Apen, 250 HP, and the BC passive. HP regen keeps my jungling health up and I've also been having mana management issues so the Mana Regen would help.
I've been torn on just sitting on Machete/Razor or Spirit Stone and trying to build 1 damage item before going tanky, but now I'm gonna try getting Lizard Elder into tanky.
Machete + Brutalizer is 1637. Razor + Brutalizer is 2037. Spirit of the Lizard Elder is 2400. Wriggles + Brutalizer is 2937. Machete + BC is 3300. Razor + BC is 3700. Spirit Stone + BC is 3800. Wriggles + BC is 4600.
Dan Dinh had been getting Wriggles + Lizard Elder into tanky during S3. What do you guys think about the buffed Lizard Elder?
Anyone doing the new "popular" Madreds + Zerkers into Warmogs rush? It's working great for me until like midgame but I dunno what to build next. I usually rush Bruta and go from there, but I'm kinda liking the lifesteal and overall ward utility of Wriggles, as it's EXTREMELY cheap at 100 gold, I get Madreds anyway and Vamp Scepter is not a half bad item on Noct. Note, if I plan to get Wriggles I tend to get it before Warmogs even though it slows it down a bit because by midgame it's just not a very efficient item and you won't get as many wards out of it.
The question is, what do I do NEXT? BT maybe? Cleaver right after Bruta? Maw? Lizard Elder? Or even build more tanky/CDR like Aegis/Bulwark or Kindlegem items?
On February 06 2013 23:34 Plague1503 wrote: Anyone doing the new "popular" Madreds + Zerkers into Warmogs rush? It's working great for me until like midgame but I dunno what to build next. I usually rush Bruta and go from there, but I'm kinda liking the lifesteal and overall ward utility of Wriggles, as it's EXTREMELY cheap at 100 gold, I get Madreds anyway and Vamp Scepter is not a half bad item on Noct. Note, if I plan to get Wriggles I tend to get it before Warmogs even though it slows it down a bit because by midgame it's just not a very efficient item and you won't get as many wards out of it.
The question is, what do I do NEXT? BT maybe? Cleaver right after Bruta? Maw? Lizard Elder? Or even build more tanky/CDR like Aegis/Bulwark or Kindlegem items?
Why do people keep circlejerking over the 100 recipe price, when the actual price is 900? As a Jungler, you are already suppose to start with machete - 5, and upgrading to a madred's is a given on Nocturne. So that leaves 900 gold to complete Wriggles. 800g is a shitty spend on a vampiric scepter when nocturne already has built in life steal and his speed. Thats like fucking saying that Trinity Force is EXTREMELY cheap at 3 gold.
On February 06 2013 23:34 Plague1503 wrote: Anyone doing the new "popular" Madreds + Zerkers into Warmogs rush? It's working great for me until like midgame but I dunno what to build next. I usually rush Bruta and go from there, but I'm kinda liking the lifesteal and overall ward utility of Wriggles, as it's EXTREMELY cheap at 100 gold, I get Madreds anyway and Vamp Scepter is not a half bad item on Noct. Note, if I plan to get Wriggles I tend to get it before Warmogs even though it slows it down a bit because by midgame it's just not a very efficient item and you won't get as many wards out of it.
The question is, what do I do NEXT? BT maybe? Cleaver right after Bruta? Maw? Lizard Elder? Or even build more tanky/CDR like Aegis/Bulwark or Kindlegem items?
Why do people keep circlejerking over the 100 recipe price, when the actual price is 900? As a Jungler, you are already suppose to start with machete - 5, and upgrading to a madred's is a given on Nocturne. So that leaves 900 gold to complete Wriggles. 800g is a shitty spend on a vampiric scepter when nocturne already has built in life steal and his speed. Thats like fucking saying that Trinity Force is EXTREMELY cheap at 3 gold.
It could be a 500 recipe price or something, im sure people wouldnt be jerking off over it then huh a hurr hurr. Triforce also received like 300-> 3 gold or something? thats a big change.
On February 07 2013 03:28 birdkicker wrote: Why do people keep circlejerking over the 100 recipe price, when the actual price is 900? As a Jungler, you are already suppose to start with machete - 5, and upgrading to a madred's is a given on Nocturne. So that leaves 900 gold to complete Wriggles. 800g is a shitty spend on a vampiric scepter when nocturne already has built in life steal and his speed. Thats like fucking saying that Trinity Force is EXTREMELY cheap at 3 gold.
I like having additional sustain in the form of lifesteal, so I'm building a Vamp Scepter anyway in most cases.
Open Machete + 5 pots -> Razor + Zerks -> Giant's Belt -> Sunfire then get mad tanky, I usually go Randuins next but Visage and Veil are both OP right now so if you need MR get a cowl and one of those
Basically you are invincible in teamfights and your main purpose is to fear people and randuins proc then ult their carries to keep them from doing damage or if you see someone out of position
As long as you have good game sense and a team that will engage you can pick fights whenever you see ones that you win
Early game camp top lane with exhaust to set them behind or outright kill them and take towers whenever you can because Nocturne's early game value is a lot higher when they don't have a tower in their lane
You're gonna be insanely tanky and still doing pretty good damage in teamfights with Sunfire (although I do agree that this is probably not optimal at higher levels... not sure really, I just don't see any pros do it but I have always thought Sunfire was amazing, probably more so than I should)
Exhaust people who try to escape you or a carry to cut their damage and get that fear tether/randuins off on their ADC or whoever you need to take out
Usually I don't spend my time peeling as Nocturne unless my carry surviving is more important than their carry not doing damage, and even then I just get a fear off and ult their ADC
If you feel like it you can sell razor for Hydra/Zephyr/BotRK/Mallet but I think Zephyr is the best out of these options for the most part
[edit] 3 Nocturne games in a row and I'm plat 4 now yay! [/edit]
I feel like there's a sweet spot on the ladder where people are smart enough to use ult and not bait horrible fights but other players still don't understand how to play around it. Noc's great because of his gank potential in solo queue and how fast he takes down towers with a creepwave. If you are a smart player and can identify good plays vs bad ones pretty consistently he'll gain you a lot of LP.
Really don't like taking flash on a hero w/o escape. It's not even like Nocturne's dueling potential is THAT good. It seems pretty cheesy and it depends upon the top not realizing they are going to get camped.
Also: I might agree w/ sylverfyre that golem is better than razor. I'm still undecided but I reserve razor/lantern for heros that are as effective at killing dragon as shyvanna... which is pretty much only shyvanna and that clown guy. Nocturne doesn't quite cut it, but he can still benefit from all the stats of golem.
On September 05 2013 10:42 miicah wrote: You NEED flash, most of the popular carries have a dash and you have no chance to keep the fear tether on them without it.
I disagree. Your entire role in a teamfight is to keep their ADC from damaging your team. Even if they have a dash, you have them exhausted + randuin's omen'd and it's trivial to stick to them + their damage is severely gimped. If they flash out of the fight, you did your job, and they're still exhausted/randuin's proc'd which allows you to stick to them with Q.
Usually teamfights end up Nocturne and an ADC that's blown their escapes + one or two peeling champs leaving your team to 4v3 or 4v2.
I'm only plat but I'm quite sure this is good at my Elo at the very least.
You can say whatever you want about the razors but I just saw cloudtemplar build it on Nocturne in Korea so idk
Also like... if top realizes they are getting camped, what the hell is flash going to do to cinch ganks that exhaust doesn't just do better? Fear range is longer than Flash range if you lead correctly towards the safe zone and if they flash the other way they're probably dead regardless. It's not like you can flash to keep them CC'd if exhaust wouldn't keep them tethered anyway.
Plus, Nocturne does have pseudo-escapes in Q and W and ult. Fear gets you out a lot too. You just have to be fluid in teamfights and not get into situations where you need to flash when you don't have it. Exhaust WRECKS carries in teamfights and that's your entire job.
I just take it because I care about winning game more than not dying. That's just how I jungle. If escaping is more important to you than crushing fights then flash is definitely your go-to summoner.
So, how are people building Noc these days? I'd expect Q max, then E, lvl W at 4 (usually), but if that's different now, please feel free to correct me.
I just started playing Noc and I still like to try and gank at lvl 3 so I get a point in W because blocking a cc can make or break a gank. I am really liking Noc though, he plays similar to Panth but with a bit more tankiness but less reliability, all of his kit requires you using it correctly to be effective. I wish they could have given him some little buff to make up for the fear change but maybe it wasn't necessarily a nerf.
Blade/Randuin is core. I personally like the golem+mobie/tabi combo for pub stomping, but lizard + treads/tabi is the most common. After that, just build as tanky as you can.
If you're snowballing, brutalizer on him is amazing and the ghost blade is a decent replacement for BorK.
Wait you just suggested like 3 different things. Can you explain more about when you are building BorK. I have found Golem into Bruta into more tank has been the most solid for me so far.
Machete + pots -> Spirit Stone -> Golem or Lizard -> Trinity Force -> Frozen Mallet/Randuin's -> any defensive items you want, but preferably Banshee/Warmog/Randuin/FM.
Skill order: QWEQQ then R > Q > E > W
I feel Trinity Force is core on Nocturne. Don't take my words for it though - ask ninjaken who has some expertise on this champion. Your passive seems to procs Spellblade on all target, so you will be clearing like a boss.
Regarding TF, while I think it's pretty clear you want Phage first, I can't really tell if Sheen or Zeal is better for the second part. You can experiment it yourself.
I find FM a bit better than Randuin's for the slow on Nocturne, but this is just my opinion. If you think FM is too hard to build (reasonable criticism), just swap it with Randuin's.
Well when I say blade/randuin is core, I mean that those are two items you should definitely be getting 90% of the time, assuming you're not super fed or super behind. Cutlass slow is really useful for ganks, and warden's mail is very easy to build, which makes randuins a logical choice.
When I talk about SS item/boot combos, those are very subjective and game dependent. Mobies are for the games where every lane seems to be constantly fighting and you have to be everywhere on the map (i'm a mobie whore..i build it on every jungler). Tabis for AD heavy teams and treads are for AP/CC heavy teams. A lot of people favor lizard on nocturne because he's a very auto-reliant ganker (as compared to, say, elise), but I like golem/mobies just cause I have the option to switch to tabis later.
Brutalizer is a great item if you're snow balling, but it doesn't help you catch a person. Again, it's a game dependent item -- can you catch people but not kill them or are you having problems sticking to people? If it's the latter, then a cutlass might be a better idea. If you can forgo the cutlass, you can build a brutalizer to kill people quicker.
edit: trinity force/frozen heart combo is an old combo that got revitalized because they made all the parts to those items a lot cheaper. That one is great for teams where there isn't too much cc and you can rely on the phage proc to stick to champs.
Prolly not. I just build em cause I need that mspd handicap in the jungle so I can travel between lanes faster and get to better ganking spots. The only other added benefit is that you'll be able to walk up to someone without using your Q, which lets you get more Q-enhanced autos.
Mobis aren't viable on anyone but supports anymore. Build Swifties if you need it on junglers now but Noc doesn't suffer from that issue as much because he ult + Q which sticks to targets.
On March 12 2014 01:46 Dark_Chill wrote: So, how are people building Noc these days? I'd expect Q max, then E, lvl W at 4 (usually), but if that's different now, please feel free to correct me.
Most people take W 2nd for the clear speed. You should only take E 2nd if you intend a quick cheese gank. In solo Q I usually do a variation of the meteos build. Mercs(he builds tabi), lizard(he builds golem), hydra,cleaver,whisper & guardian angel. You can go really tanky if your team lacks a tank but in solo Q I have had big issues going low damage jungle since you need to depend on undependable team mates. I find it better to be able to finish solo since laners usually sleep pretty deep even if you ping them in advance.
I feel nocturne is at best a tier 2 jungler in the current meta.
I started playin Noc in normals with friends, went like 9-1 in my first 10 games. Decided to bring it to solo-queue and got wrecked. I think Noc is just a lot better when you can coordinate his ult with a team on voicechat.. or I just suck. How should I be using his ult ideally?
On March 20 2014 05:29 YouGotNothin wrote: I started playin Noc in normals with friends, went like 9-1 in my first 10 games. Decided to bring it to solo-queue and got wrecked. I think Noc is just a lot better when you can coordinate his ult with a team on voicechat.. or I just suck. How should I be using his ult ideally?
Nocturne is one of the best counter ganker in game, so try to predict when and where the other jungler gank. If you do ganks however, do more lane ganks once you're 6 as oppose to walking down the river(unless you know for sure its not warded). Also remember that Nocturne doesn't really have an instantaneous hard cc so only ult in when you're sure your team can join you, preferably when they're already fighting or had already cc down a target.
So is Feral Flare the go-to item on Nocturne now? At least over SotEL if you don't need to be tanky? Has anyone tried this out, because I am thinking I may pick Noc up again if he is stronger with the new item.
On April 12 2014 02:43 YouGotNothin wrote: So is Feral Flare the go-to item on Nocturne now? At least over SotEL if you don't need to be tanky? Has anyone tried this out, because I am thinking I may pick Noc up again if he is stronger with the new item.
He is much better with the new jungle item. Since he usually farms until he reaches 6, it's really easy to amass a good count of stacks early game. He can still be tank with Feral Flare because the damage from the new jungle item is great if you are snowballing.
So do you build like FF -> bruta -> tank or go straight to tank from FF? I don't really know just how much the damage output from it is yet, can it be built as a one-off damage item?
On April 13 2014 01:15 YouGotNothin wrote: So do you build like FF -> bruta -> tank or go straight to tank from FF? I don't really know just how much the damage output from it is yet, can it be built as a one-off damage item?
I feel Triforce + FM is a very good build on him and well rounded.
Generally, I feel you need to have an image in your head of how the teamfight is going to break out - and how your oppositions can stop you. Obviously, if they got tons of CC and dedicated "protector support" (think Janna) you will be having a very hard time so you might as well build tanky.
I always have issue with tanky builds on Noc though - because his utility is really low, and if you build little damage he is pretty useless. Unfortunately, whether or not an aggressive build (usually involves Triforce, LW, and possibly another damage or damage/defense hybrid item) is effective depends on who you are fighting against.
On April 13 2014 04:02 NpG)Explosive wrote: Is triforce really that good on him? His cooldowns are quite high (10 sec minimum) and you usually use your first Q and E at about the same time.
It makes him clear so fast it's absolutely retarded.
Anyway, don't take my words for it - this is ninjaken's recommended first item too (after the jungle item). I have played 50+ games with this build and I feel it's really good.
I've been going Bilgewater Cutlass after Wriggles in most games, and going tank from there. If I'm like 5/0 I'll throw in Brutalizer or finish Blade of the Ruined King. I really love having the slow on the Cutlass. There is just no escape, even for Ezreal or Tristana, and it's honestly all the damage I need to feel pretty good about 1v1ing anyone. By the time team fights start I'm usually on my way to a Randuin's Omen, which gives another slow for sticking to squishies.
In a 5/0 scenario I can definitely see the value in rushing Trinity Force. That's what I do on Xin Zhao and Vi, and it turns them into monsters. The problem is that if I don't have gold coming in from kills and I try to force the TF, it takes too long and I end up too squishy in big fights. I tend to err on the side of caution and go Brutalizer and then tanky on those champions (also Wukong). 1337 gold is much cheaper than 3703, not too mention the power spike from Brutalizer feels better than Phage.
So far I'm just describing hows things feel and my thought process, and I'm really not trying to convince anyone to build a certain way. I haven't tested everything yet. On Nocturne, I build the early Bilgewater Cutlass for the slow because it helps me stick for auto attacks and his built-in CC is pretty weak. My concerns over the cost of TF and the timing of getting tanky enough may not be so important to this champion. I've noticed that Nocturne is surprisingly good at getting out of dodge when things get rough. I mean, on a previous page people were debating whether flash is even necessary. That debate aside, maybe Nocturne can get away with being squishy until TF is finished. Trinity Force is about more than constant spellblade procs; The health and mana actually matter, the attack speed is great for Noc, the AD and crit are solid enough, and the Rage procs are good for repositioning during fights.
I am hoping that some people who always rush TF can change my mind. Is that Phage power spike better than I give it credit for? Do you have trouble sticking to mobile targets? Maybe rage procs are enough, or you rely on your laners' cc, or you start Sheen? Do you skip TF if the other team just has too much potential to shut you down with their cc and raw damage? Nocturne is also so good at farming he probably doesn't need to worry about getting kills to afford a TF in a reasonable time...
On April 13 2014 04:02 NpG)Explosive wrote: Is triforce really that good on him? His cooldowns are quite high (10 sec minimum) and you usually use your first Q and E at about the same time.
It makes him clear so fast it's absolutely retarded.
Anyway, don't take my words for it - this is ninjaken's recommended first item too (after the jungle item). I have played 50+ games with this build and I feel it's really good.
Why Triforce over Ghostblade or Blade of the Ruined King? I'm trying to envision why you'd want to fork out almost 4k for an item on a champ with rather high CDs and usually scales better with ASPD and more sticking power.
I haven't given it a shot, but I can't envision why Triforce is a better option than the other two because the cost is so high.
On April 13 2014 04:02 NpG)Explosive wrote: Is triforce really that good on him? His cooldowns are quite high (10 sec minimum) and you usually use your first Q and E at about the same time.
It makes him clear so fast it's absolutely retarded.
Anyway, don't take my words for it - this is ninjaken's recommended first item too (after the jungle item). I have played 50+ games with this build and I feel it's really good.
Why Triforce over Ghostblade or Blade of the Ruined King? I'm trying to envision why you'd want to fork out almost 4k for an item on a champ with rather high CDs and usually scales better with ASPD and more sticking power.
I haven't given it a shot, but I can't envision why Triforce is a better option than the other two because the cost is so high.
The reason I do not build BotRK, frankly, is that I am biased against that item. I think that item is more useful when you are trying to kill a tank. As Nocturne I feel flat damage is more valuable since generally I am more interested in going after squishies. The active is mediocre on him too.
Ghostblade I am not sure. I am willing to experiment.
I used triforce when I built spirit of the elder lizard and now i do BotRK because it works better with feral flare. Triforce isn't as good with feral flare because feral flare doesn't give flat AD which triforce takes advantage of.
Ghostblade is good on nocturne but you usually can't get away with having more than one offensive item in a game where your team isn't dominating already, so I just stick to the stronger offensive items.
On April 15 2014 17:09 ugapa wrote: I used triforce when I built spirit of the elder lizard and now i do BotRK because it works better with feral flare. Triforce isn't as good with feral flare because feral flare doesn't give flat AD which triforce takes advantage of.
Ghostblade is good on nocturne but you usually can't get away with having more than one offensive item in a game where your team isn't dominating already, so I just stick to the stronger offensive items.
(I played a ton of nocturne in ranked)
triforce scales with base AD. Doesn't matter if you have bonus AD or not. Unless you're talking about relative values, in which case the math gets much trickier.
BotRK active is good for killing mobile squishies though. Sure, it's not necessarily useful against Jinx or Kog, but if you're up against a Vayne who's going to stealth after you reach her, (wait out your spell shield if you use it) and condemn you away to break the fear tether, might as well have the active to catch back up to her afterwards, and the sustain helps you duel people.
On April 15 2014 17:09 ugapa wrote: I used triforce when I built spirit of the elder lizard and now i do BotRK because it works better with feral flare. Triforce isn't as good with feral flare because feral flare doesn't give flat AD which triforce takes advantage of.
Ghostblade is good on nocturne but you usually can't get away with having more than one offensive item in a game where your team isn't dominating already, so I just stick to the stronger offensive items.
(I played a ton of nocturne in ranked)
triforce scales with base AD. Doesn't matter if you have bonus AD or not. Unless you're talking about relative values, in which case the math gets much trickier.
I would also add that both wriggle's lantern and feral flare give flat AD (12 and 15 ad respectivly).
On April 15 2014 17:09 ugapa wrote: I used triforce when I built spirit of the elder lizard and now i do BotRK because it works better with feral flare. Triforce isn't as good with feral flare because feral flare doesn't give flat AD which triforce takes advantage of.
Ghostblade is good on nocturne but you usually can't get away with having more than one offensive item in a game where your team isn't dominating already, so I just stick to the stronger offensive items.
(I played a ton of nocturne in ranked)
triforce scales with base AD. Doesn't matter if you have bonus AD or not. Unless you're talking about relative values, in which case the math gets much trickier.
I would also add that both wriggle's lantern and feral flare give flat AD (12 and 15 ad respectivly).
No, it scales with your base attack damage.
Try it in a Custom; get 6 items. Triforce, and then 5x Bloodthirsters. Note your typical AA damage number, and your proc damage number.
Then sell all your BT's and do it again, note your proc Damage number and typical AA damage number.
The difference between will be the same. It doesn't matter how much bonus AD, it goes off of the AD you would have if totally naked, and it gives that damage to you on proc as bonus Physical damage.
On April 15 2014 17:09 ugapa wrote: I used triforce when I built spirit of the elder lizard and now i do BotRK because it works better with feral flare. Triforce isn't as good with feral flare because feral flare doesn't give flat AD which triforce takes advantage of.
Ghostblade is good on nocturne but you usually can't get away with having more than one offensive item in a game where your team isn't dominating already, so I just stick to the stronger offensive items.
(I played a ton of nocturne in ranked)
triforce scales with base AD. Doesn't matter if you have bonus AD or not. Unless you're talking about relative values, in which case the math gets much trickier.
I would also add that both wriggle's lantern and feral flare give flat AD (12 and 15 ad respectivly).
No, it scales with your base attack damage.
Try it in a Custom; get 6 items. Triforce, and then 5x Bloodthirsters. Note your typical AA damage number, and your proc damage number.
Then sell all your BT's and do it again, note your proc Damage number and typical AA damage number.
The difference between will be the same. It doesn't matter how much bonus AD, it goes off of the AD you would have if totally naked, and it gives that damage to you on proc as bonus Physical damage.
What's the difference between your post and what Amui said?
[Note: this thread is very old, but it is still the official nocturne thread so…] What are folks here doing with Nocturne? I’ve been experimenting with him(it?) for the past few weeks off and on. I’ve been building
Stalkers into devourer: Like the additional CC for ganks, and I’ve done some math and think devourer does more damage than warrior given his kit. It also synergizes better with umbra blades and with other items.
Boots into mercury treads if they have lots of CC or Tabi if they lack CC and are mostly AD.
Blade of the ruined king: More attack speed. More CC for ganks. Life steal for sustain, and good tank shred / on hit damage that works well with attack speed.
Black cleaver: Mostly for the 20% CDR on an attack damage item. The stickiness from Phage ability and the 400 are also very nice. The armor shred is mostly just a bonus, but is nice if you are picking off a tank that has wandered out too far.
(swap defense to get in needed order) Magic defense if I need it: I’ve been getting banshee’s vale but I have no idea if this is the right thing to get. Maybe Maw would be better? Any thoughts?
AD defense if I need it: I’ve been getting randuins, again not sure if this is the right call.
Extra damage if I didn’t need defense because I’m way ahead: I’ve been getting last whisper. If I don’t need either defensive item then after LW I’ve been going for ghostblade here. Again no idea if either of these are the correct 4th (or 5th) offensive item.
For runes I’ve been getting attack speed marks and quints (math shows its more damage / higher DPS vs jungle monsters in the early levels). I get armor yellows, and for blues I get 3 CDR/level and 6 magic resist (probably should be MR/level but I don’t have them). This gets me to 40% CDR with blue and cleaver.
What do people think of this? If you are doing something different please let me know what your reasoning is so that I can learn from it. Thanks
I usually get warrior,gives me a decent early midgame boost and I like 10% CDR.Roam boots if the lanes have no decent escape,otherwise merc treads.90% of the time I get randiuns afterwards not going tanky usually leads to me dying to quick,if im really ahead I will go botrk.
Runes I also run as reds and quints and opt for scaling cd runes as my blue ones,giving me a 60sec cd on my ult later on.
I like banshee on him cuz with your w if gives you two effective spellshields,but it depends on their comp,hextrinker into malw is really good if they have alot of burst where banshee is really nice vs ahri and these kind of champs.